I Have Thoughts About Rings of Power - Ep. 77 of Intentionally Blank
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- Опубліковано 22 лис 2022
- Brandon and Dan talk about their thoughts on Amazon Prime's Rings of Power.
Check out our previous episode of Intentionally Blank
Our Experience of Working on Moonbreaker: • Our Experience of Work...
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Can be listened to almost everywhere podcasts can be found.
Produced by Adam Horne
Sound engineering and editing by Daniel Thompson - Розваги
"I don't want to set a precedent where every kidnapping is potentially a food heist because we don't know if they're cannibals or not" - Dan Wells, 2022
“Dan! You’re a weird dude.” Priceless
This quote makes me excited for the episode lmao
Brandon's facial expression is a perfect reaction to it.
This is the man who is going to write more Cosmere books.
@@samm8190 I couldn’t feel more secure
Rings of Power thoughts start at 8:35.
Herooo
thank you
Jesus, thank you, friend. I can't take clicking through another food heist intro lol
You are a gentleman and a scholar.
You're the best!
Brandon Sanderson:
Dan: "Cannibalism."
You know, there’s metal in people. Not to mention cannibalism sounds like a very efficient form of hemalurgy…
@@mrlaforgephysics I’m half way through era two book two. Slept on the wax and Wayne series for years till now. I’ve always wondered about this as well. Like cadmium exists in the body so could Mereci form a bubble at Will if she’s hydrated and eats healthy? Kinda like avatar when they bend the water in the blood as the final water bending twist at the end of the series.
>_> DAN please make a cannibalism based magic system!
@@balance00wow check out the first law trilogy by joe abercrombie
Tastes like chicken
"Rando human sorcerors"
"Is there such a thing in Middle Earth?"
"Yeah? I think so?"
- The actual writers room
"We don't need grimdark hobbits." - Best quote of all time!
I hope he never finds out about warhammer
Brandon being confronted about how often he subconsciously writes food heists is the best in podcast history.
It's like sitting at a lunch table in high school and listening to the elder nerds talk. Very chill vibe.
The most expensive show of all time cut a surprising amount of corners. Like while you could walk from Ost-in-Edhil to the Hollin gate; there was a road linking the two. But it's not far off the distance between Hobbiton and Bree, so 100 miles or so.
But when Elrond and Celebrimbor go, they just walk into frame from behind a rock, in the same costumes they wore the last time they were on screen. I'm not saying they should have shown the journey, but this is - even for Elves - going to be 3 or 4 days, either walking or on horseback, because they're not in a hurry; they should at least have shown a campsite, with the horses and a couple of attendants, to tell you that this isn't just a 10 minute walk.
imo both Rings of Power and Wheel of Time series on Prime feel like they were written to maximize internet fan theories and set up mysteries that kept everyone talking about them, because they desperately want to be the next Game of Thrones. Quality writing and consistency can take a back seat, can we get some more fake-out deaths and red herrings??
Yes the whole fake out/red herring/mystery box is so overused as a cheap hook to try and keep you interested rather than just telling a good story
Agreed 👍
There were SO many times when just changing costumes could have implied the passage of times and alleviated headaches. I'm not even saying have that many MORE costumes (maybe one or two for a few of the characters), just alternate between them.
that was a perfect opportunity to do some world building as they travelled. But there is no world in this show, just a series of sets.
@@scambammer6102 Remember the southLANDS is just one small village lol. I refuse to believe that this show had 60 million per episode.
Brandon, my 7 year old daughter was watching this with me and she just thought it was hysterical every time you brought out another pile of things to sign. 😂
Whats he actually signing?
@Ruben Soeteman I see Words of Radiance... maybe the title page of the book?
haha that's so funny. I never got used to it myself
Given the recent controversies around authentic signatures, it warms my heart seeing Brandon put in the time and effort to signing those pages.
He had to develop a very simple wrist-friendly signature many years ago due to how many signatures he has to do these days
Honestly I think they could have made a cutthroat survivalist Harfoot story work if they doubled down on it. Actually make them take drastic actions to protect their society, and have them embrace that side. Instead we are presented two totally contradictory versions of them, the one where they sing about never letting anyone walk alone but also if you break an ankle you will be left behind. That fundamental disconnect is what made their storyline nonsensical.
Yes, it made them such hypocrites!
That didn't bother me about the Harfoots at all. In fact, it made them more realistic. People often profess one set of ideal beliefs while acting differently out of necessity. The Harfoots are a close social group that is forced to leave stragglers due to harsh conditions. I was fine with the Harfoots until the last scene, which was too long and boring.
@@scambammer6102 Have we seen really harsh conditions, that warrant not helping someone with a sprained ankle who will contribute to the survival of the clan within two weeks? I can hardly imagine conditions, where such a decision makes sense.
@@thrombocyte2054 "Have we seen really harsh conditions, that warrant not helping someone with a sprained ankle"
well no, because the show is garbage. But such conditions could exist. If we were being chased by wolves, the stragglers would have to fend for themselves. The show does allude to such conditions, but does a poor job of portraying them. The alleged brutality of the Harfoots didn't bother me. In fact, it was the most realistic thing in the show (which isn't saying much).
If they had justified just a bit more why characters believe so strongly it's better to leave some to die (talk of personal experiences where trying to save someone resulted in risking more lives for instance), and then tackled "what we're doing is actually horrifying, whether it's necessary or not". That could have worked without changing too awfully much. If the characters WANT to be better but believe circumstances require them to be this way.
I agree with Brandon, having them choose to welcome the Stranger before his powers benefit them would have been an enormous improvement.
Thank you for mentioning the peasants leaving a fortified location for 3 cabins in a valley! I was saying it every time I talked about the show, no1 online was mentioning it!
clearly, you haven't seen the Shadversity reviews XD.
or Eat Garbage
I said an audible "what" both when they leave the fortification, and when they refer to the village as being a place where they have an advantage.
@@Fozzie1481 Those are great! I can't tell whether to feel bad or laugh whenever he comes across something that contradicts medieval combat. His rant on back scabbards in particular made me laugh.
For the original commenter, Shad has run a medieval combat channel for a long time, and was a consultant for the combat in Rhythm of War. Shadiversity is his main channel for combat analysis and testing, while Knights Watch is his main video commentary. He goes into the literary mistakes more in Knights Watch, though he will also add combat or political commentary when things really bother him. Both channels have Rings of Power reviews, but hopefully this will be helpful with finding the ones that you want to watch.
Arondir: "This position gives us an advantage."
If he's representative of the quality of the elven soldiers at the tower, no wonder they were captured and slaughtered.
@@Fozzie1481 NO I avoid Nazism in my life lmao
The "Ring Wraiths" red herring was so befuddling. They spoke of a prophecy of Sauron's return that perfectly described Not Gandalf's entry to Middle Earth, only to find out that Sauron was just chilling in the Ocean? They really weren't the brightest of Silmarils
Fanatics who blindly bend the knee to a supposed savior, rarely are
They really didn't explain anything about those witches. Apparently inspired by Shakespeare ad opposed to Tolkien. That entire subplot - Gandalf/Not Gandalf, all the proto-hobbits, the 3 witches - none of that was necessary or relevant to the main story. They should've axed all of it. Hell, they should've axed the whole show and started over, because this first attempt was a swing and a miss
well then then they try to kick the ass off the guy they are worshipping. kinda strange. if I was convinced I found the second coming of Christ with amnesia I wouldnt get into a bare knuckle with him
I would be asking why there are even Ring Wraiths before the One Ring was forged. They only existed because of the One.
In the very first episode, as soon as I saw Galadriel "punch" the Crystal wall with her fist to bust is open, I knew the show was doomed. She could have used elven magic, or sang to it or anything, but no - she has to punch it like the Hulk. oh Lord, it's just horrible and never got better.
I expected that this season was going to be setting up Sauron as a trusted person in this world and would end with him giving out all these rings. Instead he just seemed like a lost little lamb who kinda just slips in to all the important events happening in the middle of nowhere.
A lot of the show felt very hand-wavy.
That was probably my biggest frustration. They decided to undercut what could.have been a great betrayal arc by squeezing it all into one season.
If it had taken another season or two to reveal Sauron, it would have landed. He still has to persuade all the men and dwarves to accept rings from him, so he can't be "out" ... I'm really annoyed by that.
Also, when you reveal that character A (halbrand) was actually character B (sauron) the whole time, the audience needs to be able to look back at A's actions with this new knowledge and make new sense of them. This isn't really possible, apart from some strong contrivances, to do in this case. If halbrand was Sauron the whole time, his actions during the first 7 episodes mostly make close to zero sense.
@@cbpd89 even if they wanted to do the beyrayal arc in one season they could have started later and kept the story more focused. Have him be someone who has a plan in place, social/political power, and charisma. Then he's a powerhouse set up to manipulate and dominate. A villian we love to watch and love to hate.
@@cbpd89 I think making it a mystery undercuts the whole thing. Since his villainy isn't meant to be obvious, he can't do anything to revealing... except doing things revealing of their character is how you make a character interesting; it would have been much better that we know from the start and the show then builds tension by showing us how he manipulates other characters, how he escapes their notice, etc...
Particularly aggravating; him manipulating the elven smith should have been a matter of several episodes, if not a full season. But no, it has to be squeezed into the finale so we rush it while we've dragged our feet the whole rest of the season.
That show has so much potential, but it's really hard to love what's done well when they squander so many great narrative opportunities.
@@maximeteppe7627 that would require much better writing than these writers are capable of
When Brandon outlined his version of the Harfoots protecting Gandalf, I teared up thinking about it. The Harfoots as they were in the show, I hate.
Same
Totally disagree with Brandon and Dan on the Harfoots, because they seem to have misunderstood the point of them. They're proto-Hobbits not Hobbits. Nori and Poppy are more traditionally Hobbit-like in terms of the goodness of the main 4 Hobbits from LOTR, but there are plenty of examples of insular, avaricious, self-interested, 'utilitarian' Hobbits in Tolkien's works.
The tale of the Harfoots one the show is one of moral and cultural evolution - in the beginning the "nobody walks alone; no-one goes off-trail" is an imperative that reveals the collectivist, tribal mindset of the Harfoots. It's a command to members that everyone follow the collective or else they get left behind. But as the show progresses, it is becomes more of a motto of solidarity - nobody walks alone because now the group will support you. The Harfoots learn and grow as result of their experiences with the Stranger, and they are humbled by Nori's goodness.
I love Brandon and Dan, but if they don't see the duality inherent in the Harfoot motto, they've just missed the point. The show has plenty of other issues, but not the Harfoots.
@@GMBethHarmon The Harfoots are a massive issue. Using Tolkien’s lore. They’re a lie the showrunners are selling. Tolkiens Harfoots are one of the three main Hobbit races. To say “they’re not hobbits, they’re Harfoots” is like saying “they’re not Asian, they’re Korean”.
Outside of his lore, using just the show, the Harfoots are absolutely told to the audience they survive by relying on each other, and only each other. They are a closed off from the world group that has a massive strength in their working together. But then we are immediately shown this isn’t true by the fact that Nori’s father is terrified once he gets hurt that he’ll be abandoned, and the superstitious older lady calls out it’s time to kill the family for bringing strangers. It makes you wonder how many names in their book of the dead were uncontrollable deaths vs intentional murders. The Harfoots are easily one of the worst things about this show. Especially as they add nothing. They’re 1/3 of the narrative of this dragged out mess of a show, and could have been removed with nothing really being lost from the primary narrative
@@GMBethHarmon The 'point' of the Harfoots in the show is "hey, remember Frodo and Sam? Weren't they great? This is Amazon Basics Frodo and Sam, and they're just as good, honest!"
@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t Amazon: "Remember how dirty and filthy Sam and Frodo looked by the end of LOTR? Well, boy, do we have the 'Not-Hobbits' for you!"
It’s actually in the contracts for Amazon that a pointless cavalry charge must be added in their fantasy shows.
My favorite cannibal joke:
A friend told me a cannibal took his sister on a first date to a movie where Russel Crowe plays a Roman general.
-„Gladiator?“ I asked.
-„No, I really miss her.“
*throws tomato*
As an aspiring storyteller, who looks up to and is greatly influenced by Sanderson, having similar story critiques is comforting. Not because I think I am right, but because I’m hoping it’s showing my growth in understanding storytelling and the placement of scenes and dialogue. I also try to separate “this is bad” and “I would have done it differently.” It’s difficult though because often i would do something differently because I think it’s bad.
What would be a good example of something that you think is bad vs something you don’t like and why?
@@yomamma.ismydaddy216 An example I can think of, from Brandon's writing, is Lift. Lift is easily my least favorite storm light character. I recognize that she is a well written character with a clear character arc, but I find the character to be annoying in almost every one of her scenes. Something about her doesn't work for me.
I really like this way of thinking. It helps me feel better about the fact that I actually enjoyed Rings of Power after seeing and hearing so many complaints about the writing of the show. I'm a storyteller myself, and the complaints here have legitimacy, I can see that, and I can see how someone else would write Rings of Power differently, but I like the idea that it wasn't actually bad.
That said, I'm not deep into the lore of Lord of The Rings, so I'm your undereducated viewer. I certainly enjoyed the movies. The books were difficult for me to get into, and I'm quite happy binge-reading the Mistborn series right now instead 🤪
@@yomamma.ismydaddy216 Well in my opinion the Harfoots storyline I think is just bad and poorly written. Something I would have done differently is Halbrand and Celebrimbor. I wouldn’t have waited until the last episode to show him smithing. Have him working on something that’s really ambitious and he keeps failing. Show him struggling in a very specific spot. Then show Halbrand doing something else that can be the solution to Celebrimbor’s problem, but it would have to be something subtle and not obvious. That way when they come together at the end there can be an “ah ha” moment for the viewer. In concept all of this is easy to talk about, but in practice and actually writing it… well I’m not oblivious to the fact that it’s actually really hard and complicated to pull off.
@@3DagrunHonz I’ve learned that it’s okay to think something is bad while understanding it’s okay if someone else enjoys it. I can be very confused on “how does Galadriel not know about the king of the Southlands thing when the Elves have literally been watching over it for hundreds and hundreds of years. It’s where Arondir’s story starts. You’d think they would pay attention and notice if there hadn’t been a king for a long time.” I think that’s bad writing, but my friend is willing to look past that and not worry about it to enjoy the show. And that’s okay, I’m happy for him.
I know the lore decently well and can point out where it was changed, but to me, as long as it can still be explained in a cohesive story I’m fine with changing how things happen. I mean look at the new God of War. They change quite a bit in the story, but they did such a fantastic job with the execution that no one cares.
They made it way too obvious that Halbrand is Sauron and the entire time I was praying he wouldn't be Sauron and would end up as a Ring Wraith, maybe even the Witch King, which would've been an amazing storyline especially if him and Galadriel became close friends only to see him become corrupted to a Ring Wraith. Another problem with that entire thing is that it basically makes Halbrand/Sauron's return mostly Galadriel's fault along with it being coincidental.
Like, what are the odds that Galadriel meets Sauron in the middle of the sea on a raft after she swims how many leagues? Then because of her obsession with finding Sauron, she basically pushes Halbrand to return as Sauron, who from what the audience observes only wants to be left alone to a blacksmith. Like he makes it clear the entire time that he just wants to be left alone to blacksmith. If she didn't force him to go with her to the Southlands and fight, he for all tense and purposes would've stayed at Numenor and taken their jobs. (Obviously with him being Sauron, that could've just been a deception and manipulation, but since they met coincidently on a raft in the middle of the Sea, it's hard to believe it was a manipulation and not Sauron just wanting to live a humble life blacksmithing. Having their meeting be a coincidence is just terrible story telling. I also didn't like the way Galadriel found out that he was Sauron, which also felt like a coincidence. A really dumb coincidence.
When you have more sympathy for the villains then you do for the protagonists
Honestly, for me they only time I cared what was happening was when Adar was on screen. The actor really brought something to the screen. I cared for him. I felt for him. I hated Galadriel for how she didn't show a ounce of compassion to a CLEARLY in pain, traumatised fellow being. She didn't act like an Elf at all! Ador was more Elf then her.
Those writers were writing the wrong story period.
@@ghouling1111 I am not opposing your thoughts but maybe it's much more of the writers' fault than one of the actors'.
@@knightlon I agree it's the writing. Galadriel is the character the script wanted, apparently. Her lines and personality aren't the actor's fault
@@ghouling1111 Elves are dickheads. That is pretty much cannon. The difference between the immortal race and the rest of the Middle Earth inhabitants are expressed quite a lot in Tolkien's writing. FFS Lelogas" dad abandoned the Dwarves to die at Erobor when Smaug came. This is not a unique trend.
It's amazing how a skilled writer can fix the whole RoP in 45 minutes of brainstorming, while the showrunners failed so miserably after they tinkered with the story for over 2 years 😂
tbf there were undoubtedly staff writers screaming the same points at a lead trying to please execs. these kinds of jumbled messes are often the result of too many good ideas smushed together in illogical ways, or half of a solid plotline on a cutting room floor.
@@spunlines4557 100% what more than likely happened. It's always easier to critique a finished product than it is to create one. Their criticisms are very valid and I agreed with most but even the most skilled writers take 2 years or more to write a story that will also have flaws. Once a story is finished it is very easy to point fingers at all the "flaws."
Not to mention there are a lot of other factors when it comes to the production of a show of this scale. Overall, the show wasn't perfect but I enjoyed it more than enough to want more seasons.
While I totally agree that to be true. I don't give a lot of credit to an extremely under qualified show runner with little to no experience being handed a story of this magnitude. While it likely got contorted by execs, the general world building (like the hardfoots be dark/grim) almost 100% came from the original show runners and writing staff
@@Jiaphet didn't expect flawless, but the show was legitimately unredeemable in almost every storyline. But now we're arguing preference for shows, which isn't fun for anyone, so I'll just say "agree to disagree".
I would say, if Amazon was open with metrics, I bet you'll see a minimum of 60% drop off from season finale of season 1 to finale of season 2. I don't think the show is recoverable at this point. But, I would be super happy to be wrong
@@spunlines4557 I heard that the writers shrouded themselves in secrecy. Blacked out the windows. Apparently to prevent leaks
In my opinion, the stranger its clearly Gandalf: his final line about letting his nose guide the way is a call back to that scene on moria in the first movie.
Yeah, I'm like "what do you mean not-Gandalf? He's clearly Gandalf!"
Agreed. Can’t see how anyone would think otherwise, unless Amazon left it an open question so they could pivot based on the reception of season 1
It was obvious from the first episode. He whispers to moths and hangs out with hobbits. Nobody wanted him to be gandalf, which was the only reasons people denied. I felt the same way about discount aragorn being sauron. What a cheap plot gimmick.
You guys are WAAAAAY too credulous. He's going to be one of the Blue Wizards. He'd going to Rhûn, where the Blue Wizards went. One created a sorcerer cult. So I think this is the second Blue Wizard.
@@hawkname1234 you the credulous show writers never heard of the blue wizards
We spent more time on the Harfoots saying good bye than on Sauron tricking the elves and making rings, and that is really a summary of everything that made the show awful.
What I'm wondering is, what about the other rings? We didn't see most of the other rings being made at all. Unless I just missed that scene. It seems to me either they did it off screen, sauron will make them by himself, or sauron will trick celebrimbor AGAIN. None of those seem like appealing options imo and definitely the end was rushed.
@@Blizzhobbs Pretty sure in season 2 we are going to see that Saruon in disguise had a meeting with the elves, the one Elrond was not invited to and convinced them that they were fading. He could also return to Eregion in another form to have the rest of the rings forged in the next season as well.
I could see this as a way to explain how "annatar" gets introduced into the story but it would still make the elves look dumb for them to be fooled twice about the same thing imo. But anything is possible i suppose
How can the sorcerers be Ringwraiths when the Nine Rings haven't been made yet?
They obviously start living in the opposite direction of time arrow once the One Ring got destroyed. And by the time they reach the beginning of Time they will high five Iluvatar.
Arcane and Rings of Power. Opposite ends of the spectrum for quality of writing.
Not really
Yeah
Haha no. They’re both quite near the trash end though.
Arcane is an incredibly written masterpiece. RoP is a dumpster fire. You, sir, are spot on here
It's an insult to compare ROP to Arcane quite frankly.
He's totally gandalf. He said the "follow your nose" quote.
I would argue that Atium is, at least for the people of the Final Empire, valued for its ability to be eaten, and is therefore food. Yes, it has other uses, but those uses were not known to Kelsier when he planned said heist. Kelsier just wanted it because he could either eat it, or sell it to other people who valued it because it could be eaten.
So are magic mushrooms, are they food?
@@Lezzyboy87 yes
"Valued for its ability to be eaten" does not necessarily make it food. It would have to provide sustenance. I think the only metal that comes close is Pewter.
But also I'd argue it's still not "food" because its burned away and not digested.
Are tablets food?
@@L1ghtweaver I suppose that depends on how you define food. I don’t think your definition is a bad one, but Dan seemed to be defining food as something primarily intended to be eaten, which I’d argue Atium is in the Final Empire.
Hooray for a two-part roast… I mean “discussion” of Rings of Power!
They were very polite, I think is professional courtesy. The show was honestly horrible.
@@ramiroexposito4010 The amount of derision and hate this show has generated on-line has been fairly impressive. Who says that a billion dollars is all you need to buy people's applause?
Brandon is so funny when he's not even trying. "It's a little bit doctor evil." That cracked me up 🤣
I think he is attempting to be funny in that situation tbh
The harfoots came off as more villainous than souron.
I’m still convinced they just killed and ate the fat Harfoots. Then read about them at story time
Halbrand being Sauron was the most obvious thing I've ever seen.
It was so obvious I assumed it was a red herring.
@@ryanbradley5557 I was a little weary until Not Gandalf showed up, and that red herring gave it away immediately for me.
it wasn't to me, but that's because I really only watched like 2 or 3 episodes, so I didn't see it =P
And yet that one element worked well. It was just stupid that they tried to hide it
@@danielbroome5690 It did not work well at all to anyone who knows anything about what Tolkien actually wrote on the 2nd age.
Listening to the man who has been my favorite writer for 12 years talk in such a chill way about ROP has help calm a bit the burning hatred I was feeling about this show 😅
This is - by far - the kindest review I've seen on Rings of Power
How did you talk about mistborn being a food heist and miss the giant stores of food that they are trying to acquire for two whole books?
You guys are being pretty generous imo. Enjoyed the conversation regardless
People have been propagandised for years that 'to be judgemental is bad' so there is never any hard and fast condemnation which would, coincidentally, help prevent hack writers from propagating their hackery and destroying the cache of well loved cultural artifacts.
Of course, the elephant in the room is that such cultural vandalism is nowadays often *an actual goal* of the writers (or the purse-holding producers), here and elsewhere They'll tell you quite clearly so long as you're aware enough to read between the lines of their virtuous sounding coded language. Those 'virtuous' goals inform all of the otherwise inexplicable contortion of canon that helps make this series so bad in it's execution - the writers are not serving the goals of storytelling first and sometimes not at all.
If the choice is between agenda and narrative coherence... agenda wins. I'd go further and suggest that they're often so blinded by that 'virtuous' zeal that they don't even *recognise* the faultlines it creates in the narrative cohesion, thus you get examples such as the Hobbitwife who demands they sabotage the wagon of the 'undesirables' condemning them to 'falling off trail' .... later being lovingly described as 'always being right' because of the opportunity to totemise a moment of 'female empowerment'.
I'd argue this whole conversation is more important than people might think because it mirrors (and is in fact tied into) far greater concerns, I'd suggest the at least semi-explicit reason such a 'non-judgemental' mindset has been propagated is to prevent such pushback across the entire socio-political landscape and that the mental costs are poisoning public discourse and social cohesion.
You ever wonder why left of centre politics has gone more and more off the deep end? This same 'I don't want to be judgemental' mindset. With nothing pushing back, the lefts insatiable desire for revolutionary change and pushing back boundaries just becomes more and more divorced from the world as it actually exists and the bounds that actually serve to protect people from bad outcomes.
The irony of course, is that this non-judgement is entirely suspended for people not buying into the constantly evolving vision of the 'one true path', they're all (we're constantly encouraged to believe) domestic terrorists in waiting, their every thought and utterance MUST be interpreted in the most nefarious light possible.
Immediately even one of the cults greatest adherents falls away from purity in the slightest (JK Rowling).... they transform instantaneously into a deceptive infidel, a likely member of the 'far right', and/or MUST be driven by being phobic or an ist of some form. To fall away from grace couldn't possibly indicate a problem with the dogma of this new 'enlightenment' after all....
It's almost like the cognitive dissonance that comes with a reflexive baseline denial of reality - as the totem characters they venerate reveal their shortcomings (and cognitive decline) and the bad outcomes their own 'well meaning' policies propagate (defund the police,BLM etc) - HAS to be offloaded onto a scapegoat *somewhere* ...
After all, as previously stated, it couldn't possibly be that their assumptions are wrong. They KNOW as a fundamental axiom that they are the 'good' people - their whole self -image rests upon basking in their self determined virtue, its a much easier life when you can offload all of that existential doubt into the chimaeric representation of 'evil fascism' as embodied by those ignorant 'bad people' over there - with their shocking irreverence and off colour jokes and view of offense as something to be shrugged off not clutched at for cultural relevance/power etc etc
Worst of all *draw in breath* they might try to argue the utterly backward notion that perhaps some of the traditions of days past (which *became* traditions at least in part due to interactions with real world pressures and the molding of societal structure along the lines of human behavioural norms) might not need to be entirely discarded, at least not all at once, for the sake of that pure and holy revolutionary zeal.
After all, anything that might serve to limit your actions is without question fundamentally oppressive and thus an evil to be purged.
But hey ho, lets continue to cowardly refuse to judge while cultural touchstones (and the world in general) burns, 'cause heaven forfend we might make a mistake and cause someone unearned heartache to their fee-fee's (unless they have the wrong think, then go ham). 😏
@@ssharp755 well, these guys are in the business. they don't want to piss off potential customers.
@@ssharp755 Best comment so far.
@@scambammer6102 Don't be a shill. Don't cover for shills. Don't omit yourself. Be part of change, and not part of the problem.
@@ssharp755 Good shit man. We gotta speak up. Always. These things happen because ppl are too p*ssy to say or do anything.
8:36 Rings of Power discussion starts.
Please never change the podcast name! It's awesome and I love it!
Mr. Wells, I finally read "I Am Not A Serial Killer", finished it in 2 nights! Really enjoyed it and started Mr. Monster today!! 😄
I just read it too! I literally couldn't put it down and read it in an afternoon.
Mr. Monster was by far the hardest for me to get through.
@@samuelfriedbaum4450 For me too. I eventually put it down and had to come back to it much later.
Omg, I came down into the comments to say this as well! I went out and bought the first three and I don't regret it one bit. /Now/ The problem becomes finding peremant placement on the shelves next to Brandon since he'll be writing in the Cosmere and I have to keep all books by an author near each other.
@@samuelfriedbaum4450 is that because of the cat scene? I struggled with that one too
I hope they cover Andor at some point. Andor is honestly the best Star Wars content since The Clone Wars and maybe even since the Original Trilogy if you want a spicy hot take.
especially now that season one is complete, such an incredible show 🥰
The Stranger is 100% definitely Gandalf. They used the "follow your nose" line to drive it home. They aren't being creative or sneaky with 99% of the writing in this show. The tunnels/volcano thing was literally the only thing I didn't see coming. I knew the volcano had to blow somehow, but I didn't expect the use of the tunnels. That was the one brilliant piece of writing amongst a sea of cliches.
Also, the wraiths don't need to be ring wraiths. Unless the show changes the lore, the One Ring hasn't been forged yet, so there can't be ring wraiths. They CAN just be wraiths, though. There are maybe two other descriptions of wraiths (not nazgul/ring wraiths, just wraiths) in the lore. Then again, the show tossed a lot of lore out the window, so maybe Sauron forged the One Ring back before the elves even came to Middle Earth! %D
I love the idea of Theo being the Ghost King. I'd wanted them to go that route with Halbrand, even though I knew they wouldn't. Theo going that route would be amazing.
I am SHOCKED that there was anyone fooled by the decoy key. As soon as Adar called Waldreg over, I was like "Well, there goes the key." And so the whole "Look I have the key, chase me!" bit was SO FRUSTRATING and I was screaming at the screen for ANYBODY to open the bundle, because of course the key isn't in there! Just another cliche in a sea of cliches.
The timing only makes sense if you assume that things they're showing you aren't happening at the same time. So I thought that's what was going on. but then the red comet happens, and ties all the storylines to the same timestamp. So.. NOPE! Just terrible writing.
There were things I liked. Adar's conversation with Galadriel has me 100% on the side of the Uruk at this point. Galadriel sounds like a racist zealot. Arondir was also awesome. Thorin & Disa were great in a lot of their scenes, though I have some issues there too. Why did the writers make them lie like they breathe? I don't think that was necessary. Anyway. Very mixed bag overall for me.
You hadn't see volcano coming (so did I) because that twist is so utterly nonsensical and dumb it can't hold a candle to even the most in-your-face fantasy explanations.
Even if not-Sauron would have just wished Mount Doom into existence it would make more sense. First, we are talking about supernatural universe where powers of creation sometimes just act openly. Second, it would save us a ton of time spent on BS plot twist that probably didn't deserve so much attention.
Subversion of expectation is truly a plague of modern media. Done bad, it doesn't just fail - it takes from other elements.
That's not how volcanoes work, so obviously it wasn't expectable.
@@tomasxfranco I mean, yeah you are totally correct. :D I'm willing to suspend disbelief here and there though. I'm a Star Trek fan afterall! I thought the volcano/tunnels thing was a really neat concept and executed well, so I forgave the fact that it would have only been a big steam explosion & not an actual eruption.
The wraith looks exactly like the ring wraith from Peter Jackson movies. Should have used different design if they want to avoid confusion.
@@markusbisma5015 Totally agreed, but I dont think avoiding confusion was their goal. I'm pretty sure their goal was fan-service. Which is dumb. But so much of the writing is dumb, it's just par for the course.
I love these guys. They are so chill and yet on point critical.
Great analysis, I agree on everything you said, especially Brandon's approach. Both of you should write the future seasons to save this series!
After nearly starting about 20 different episodes of this podcast I feel compelled to share that I have never listened to a single one because I have truly less than zero interest in food heists 😂 I honestly may just not be the audience for this podcast, and if so, the food heist intro is a wonderful filtration device, but I would LOVE a timestamp to be able to skip it and find where the title topic begins because I love you guys' minds. Thanks for everything Brandon & Team.
i would love to hear you two talk more about Adar (he was my favorite part of the show as well)
I got together with my long time buddy to watch RoP the weekend it came out. A love of LotR was one of the things we have always had in common and we were excited to see what a billion dollar version of the Legendarium would look like. We were very disappointed. By the middle of the first episode, we were making fun of this ridiculously expensive train wreck. We made it through the two initial episodes but chose not to continue the show as it was obviously not made for Tolkien fans who appreciate the verisimilitude of the Legendarium. I followed the rest of the season by watching the Gandalf Roasts RoP show. Things that occured to me during this parody of Middle Earth include:
1. Giving first time show runners a billion dollar show is like giving the keys to a Lamborghini to an eight year old. Both usually result in very expensive accidents.
2. Do not make a show you do not have the rights to tell. When the only decision you CAN make are the wrong ones, you are setting yourself up for failure. Believing that you can tell a Tolkien story better than Tolkien is the height of arrogance. The early Third Age was ripe for a "Game of Thrones" style show: The splitting of Arnor, the Kin-Strife in Gondor, the hot and cold war between Angmar and Arnor, the Easterling invasions of Rhovanion and Eastern Gondor, and more were available for the telling culminating in the final destruction of Arnor and the defeat of the Witch King of Angmar. Amazon has the rights to tell this story with plenty of room to frame your stories on the bones provided by the Appendices in Return of the King.
3. There is no difference in Elves and Humans other than the ears. The contrast between mortals and immortals is perhaps the main theme of the Second Age in the Legendarium. Time compression mutes this theme as does the lack of differentiation of the First and Secondborn. The Noldor and the Numenoreans both want to have their cake and eat it too. The Noldor want to have Immortal Realms in Middle Earth out from under the thumb of the Valar. Conversely, having been gifted a Blessed Realm by the Valar, the Numenoreans want the Immortality that they believe is just outside of their grasp and is being withheld from them by the Lords of the West.
4. The deconstructionist subversion trope (excuse) is as stale and out of place in Tolkien as is the man hating argumentative she-man trope. The character assassination of Galadriel is offensive to Eru Iluvatar. You're messin' with one of His best baby girls. Repent! Galadriel can sing down Dol Guldor. She doesn't need a sword. Galadriel is 10,000+ mortal years old by the beginning of the Second Age. She doesn't have wild oats to sew or growing up to do. Galadriel is a fully mature Elf Matron throughout the Second Age. She is the eye of the storm, not the tempest. No one would ever want to peace out on Galadriel. WTF?
5. The two trees were cool. It was all downhill from there. By the way, Amazon, if you had put Finrod in a black leather jacket and had him riding a magical Elven motorcycle and wielding an acoustic guitar with an I Humans sticker, it would have been more authentic that that portrayal.
Couldn't have said it better myself. A huge missed opportunity by Amazon. When I heard rumors that they were thinking of just junking this 1st Season and making a completely fresh attempt in a couple of years, it made total sense to me. Just forget this attempt (and the billion dollars) and start over.....
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Brandon's exasperation at Dan's chagrinned confession of cannibalism really shows just how long they've known and suffered each other
I am impressed at the effort to include "good" things about this series!
I think this first season's plotlines are all revolving around an eventual ringbearer: we have Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf who will bear the three, we have Sauron himself, and we have Isildur who will eventually get the One Ring. Going with that theory, Theo, Earien, and/or Pharazon's son will become Nazguls, while Durin and/or Disa will get some of the Dwarven rings.
The biggest support for Theo becoming a Nazgul is the scene where he and Galadriel hide under the tree, which signifies that he would be the same Black Rider who will repeat that scene in reverse position in Jackson's films. I think the Ghost King would be Isildur's surviving friend whatshisname for maximum drama.
The problem with stuff that "looks like its happening concurrently but are not" is the fact they LINKed up all the times in episode 1 with the Meteroric arrival of the Stranger
The 9 wraiths were originally great kings, warriors, and sorcerers, leading one to believe there were “magic” users that weren’t Istari, but the Istari are Wizards (Maia) and not just conjurers of cheap tricks.
Did Dan just casually drop that he was reading the Stormlight archive?? I remember a time when he said he would never read it lol! I love how times change…
Brandon tricked him into it by hiring him to write Cosmere books XD
27:01 The 3 boats allegedly carrying hundreds of Numenorians and horses made me laugh so hard. I'm glad I'm not alone.
They take Halbrand to Eregion not the Grey Havens (still a heck of a journey but about 2/3 or 1/2 the distance)
Well put!
Like 75% yeah
Yup no way any horse could ride that distance. Especially not with someone wounded.
One of the things that made Tolkien's work stand out, and one of the reasons it's still such a big thing today, is that he actually put thought into how long it should take to get from place to place, and when things would have to happen in order to tie in with other things - you can count off the days and make a timeline, with phases of the moon, and it will all work, with people and messages taking consistent amounts of time to travel between places.
Peter Jackson messed that up a bit, but, from what I hear, Rings of Power just tears up the maps entirely. It's bad enough when something doesn't bother to establish a consistent geography, but when working with a property known, among other things, for having one, to throw that out seems a bit egregious.
Some years ago now, I read a book where one of the characters (a child at the time) wrote a story, and some of the grown-ups got hold of it and discussed it, poking gentle fun about things like the scene where Female Protagonist watches Male Protagonist walk ashore on the far side of the lake from her, they have a brief conversation (presumably they can both shout loudly) and then she flings herself tearfully into his manly arms (having apparently either run on water or teleported). I know air travel and the internet have pretty much destroyed any sense of distance in the real world, but, seriously? Something that's an excusable error for an inexperienced future writer is ridiculous coming from a team of supposedly professional writers...
The Numenoreans might as well have sent themselves to the Southlands via Amazon express delivery. It would actually have made more sense to have a fourth wall breaking joke reminiscent of Spaceballs over them sailing a thousand miles, disembarking their army somewhere on the coast or up the river Anduin and then marching another hundred miles *at minimum* in a couple of days.
The 3 "not-Ringwraith" ladies are more likely rando-sorcerers from Rhun - the 2 blue wizards go to the East (Rhun), which is also mentioned as the place to see the constellation.
Brandon Sanderson: The Scouring of the Shire is a thing
Film adaptaions: Nope
Awesome video. I would love to see Brandon’s thoughts about house of the dragon as well
I can't believe they said there was too much FAN SERVICE. Why lie like that? I understood why Brandon was really lenient with wheel of time but what's the reason here? If you're going to lie and make stuff up then don't review the show at all, no one asked for this.
The fans didn't want them to include hobbits and they had a negative reaction when they learned they'd be included from the start. This wasn't done for the fans. It was a corporate decision designed to create nostalgia and bring people to the show. When you can't write a good story you have to rely on statistics and algorithms and that's what amazon is doing.
That's why both wheel of time and rings of power had a central mystery that wasn't in the books. It was amazon-designed to generate social media buzz (who is the dragon reborn and who is sauron???). Of course it would never work, and it didn't, but i'm sure amazon's algorithms said otherwise. Art created through a committee and algorithms isn't art but just a soulless cash grab.
I think when they say fan service they mean nostalgia bait/‘member berries
When they are talking about Who designs a damn with a self destruct button? I couldn’t help but think Doofenshmirtz.
The problem with the stranger/harfoot storyline is the same as the central problem with the rest of the story, and, in fact, the same problem that ruined the Wheel of Time show: It exists for no reason other than to feed an unnecessary "who is Sauron" storyline.
In both shows, they desperately want to replicate the water cooler talk that Game of Thrones inspired, but don't understand that type of talk sprang up naturally, because people were invested in the story and characters, and not because somebody dangled a mystery box in front of the audience's face. Amazon studios did the exact same thing with the "who is the Dragon Reborn" storyline, too, and it was at the core of half the problems with the show.
The stranger/harfoot storyline could have theoretically been interesting, if they had some sort of story they wanted to tell with it, or if it tied into the Numenor, Southlands, or Dwarven storylines in some way, but their only priority in the entire thing was to provide a second reasonable candidate for Sauron. Red herrings are fine, but not when the entire plot line, and every character involved, exists for no reason but to be one.
'Messy' is definitely the perfect description of the RoP.
Adoooonalsium
35:13. It was perfect. Perfect. Everything. Down to the last minute details.
I will disagree with the minute 28 mark. Galadriel has a scene on the boat depicting that she has very good sight and can see the shore. They know the southlands are being attacked, and they made it clear Galadriel has incredibly good vision-so we can infer she could see the smoke rising in the air from a large distance away. So not entirely coincidental.
I don't know how i came across this youtube video, love it. Hollywoods adaptation of worlds that are so well thought out, can never hold true ."wheel of time, witcher second season" love this
They have a couple episodes discussing the Wheel of Time tv series as well! Brandon consulted on the wheel of time tv show, because he finished the series after Robert Jordan’s passing.
When the words "food heist" inevitably make their way into a Sando novel: *insert Leo pointing at the tv with a drink in his hand here*
Looking at the lore makes me think the Stranger is one of the Blue Wizards. They both arrive on Earth at this time in the lore and travel individually to Rhun, where the Stranger and Nori were heading. Gandalf and Saruman didnt arrive on Earth until after Sauron's fall at the Battle of the Last Alliance.
If the stranger is not Gandalf I would also be fine with him being one of the two blue wizards that actually were running around during the second age... I was hoping the three followers were going to be like a mouth of Sauron since those are high ranking minions which would make them Black Numenoreans.
I'm sure they wrote it as the grey, but I think they will pivot to a blue as it's what a better writer would have done.
I felt exactly the same as Brandon about the battle scene not making sense and being a bit too gory. My husband got so frustrated with me shouting at the screen that heading back to the village was suicide and that the orcs could just set torch to the whole place. It made episode 6 my least favorite. I did enjoy episode 7 however, which seems to have been the least favorite for those who enjoyed 6.
They cannot be ringwraiths. The rings have not been made yet and they were Kings of men, not women
Yes, the rings were not yet made and so they cannot be ring wraiths.
No, „kings of men“ refers to „kings of humans“, as „kingdom of men“ as eg in the bible.. so their sex is not given from that naming.
@@franz5998 they were still all men
@@bard5865 guarantee that the show will make some women
Technically, some of the Nazgul were never kings to begin with, but yes Tolkien rarely used female characters, so it's unlikely that any of them were female.
@@franz5998 I think the male part is implied in "kings" not "men."
For the record, I don't think they're ringwraiths, I do think Tolkien envisioned all the Ringwraiths as male, but the show will probably make some female and that doesn't bother me.
It is Gandalf. 100%. He literally said a Gandalf line.
"...follow your nose."
This showed up in my feed and I thought "Huh, his name is the same as that author."
And then I watched him start signing a stack of papers, and my thoughts deepened, "Hang on, is this like, *the* Brandon Sanderson? Not just *a*?"
Few seconds of google and now I'm back and subscribed. How the hell did I not know you had your own channel!?
The thing I hated most about the Mt Doomsday device sword, is that to me, the sword would have fit much more in middle earth mythos as a corrupting artifact. like the silmarils, like the one ring; make it something that a weak character can use to feel strong and it slowly corrupts him, BAM, you have something that fits middle earth in themes and tone.
Similarly the mystery boxes (who's the stranger, which one is Sauron) feel like they don't fit in a tragic myth like middle earth.
That said, visually and acting wise, I think the show nails the tone of the LotR movies, that blend of mythic solemnity and occasional lightheartedness. I'm especially impressed with the hellenistic/roman aesthetics that feel like a natural origin to the Peter Jackson movies art direction while steel feeling fresh.
Still working though the Stormlight Archive. Good stuff!
Need to mention how apparrently pourng water in a volcano causes it to explode violently. I don't think that should work in the same way that a chip-pan fire works. I know the water will expand into steam but they've already dug channels to release the pressure for it.
Give me thoughts on Andor please. That is a show that is actually worth giving praise, and it's gone under the radar for so many. It was visible relief after watching RoP
The thing with taking Halbrand, assuming he was human, on a long horse ride to Eregion is he's dying if you do nothing. So better a slim hope than no hope at all.
This, of course, ceases to be problematic once you realise he's not human anyway and the wound's not really fatal at all.
Hey Brandon, what’s up, man? Your lectures are holy to me. I’ve listened to them endlessly. You have been a fundamental asset to my craft and I can’t thank you enough.
I was wondering if you could take a quick look at my Kickstarter. I’m on the verge of some great work, but I could use some help.
Thanks 🙏
FWIW Galadriel and Halbrand rode from southern lands to Eregion, not the Grey Havens. Eregion is near Khazad-dum. It's maybe 400 miles (which is still ridiculous), but the Grey Havens would be twice that.
Just to clarify, the "Ring Wraiths" (sorcerers) are simply beings which exist in The Unseen World, which beings of varied degrees of power exist in simultaneously with the physical world. It's referred to by Galadriel in episode one in the Sauron cave with the troll, as something Sauron was experimenting with finding/controlling or something like that.
Brandon: My end opinion of it was a..."meh"
Quick minor correction: they didn’t ride from Mordor to the Grey Havens, they actually rode from Mordor to Eregion. Still a long distance, but absolutely nowhere near as far as the Grey Havens :)
If the Harfeet are nomadic, why do they have names like Brandyfoot and Burrows? They don't dig yet, and I doubt they are skilled in distillation. So why these names?
The level of thought put into the world building was minimal. If you just think about some of the writing for a few seconds it crumbles.
If this show gave any hint of caring about lore, I would suggest that "brandy" could very well be a corruption from Sindarin baran for golden-brown (like the Brandywine/Baranduin river)...but this show doesn't care. It's just 'memba this?
I wish Brandon had the same criticism on Wheel of Time.
He is working with the show runner so obviously he isn't going to.
@@AdeelTariq0 I wouldn't call that "working with"
Too bad for business unfortunately.
Hi. Would be great to hear your opinion on Andor!🙌
The baddies cannot be Nazgul. The rings haven't been made yet. The Nazgul are kinda of men who get corrupted by their rings.
Kings not kinda (damn autocorrect!)
They're not saying they are currently Nazgul (I don't think...) I assume he was implying that they are allies of Sauron who will be given rings in the future and become Nazgul.
@@1lamafarmer But, they aren't Kings of men who will be corrupted. They are obviously already evil and in possession of "powers" that are not granted by the rings which haven't been made yet.
Spot on!!! I also wanted Sauron to create Mordor not some minion of his... and most importantly to be in the same episode he reveals himself with a big bang
I strongly believe the Stranger is Gandalf. Aside from him being connected to the Harfoots [Hobbits], it's also in his Elvish name "Mithrandir", which means "grey pilgrim". That describes the Stranger perfectly at this point. Imagine an elf seeing him, and giving him this name. Also, there is an explicit transition (I do not remember which episode) between the moon to the circle of fire, in which the stranger appeared. In Quenya, the name of the moon is "rana", meaning "wayward", derivative of the root *ran, which means "to wander".
This could be so very fitting.
Grimdark hobbits can work, just not in a Lord of the Rings setting where the hobbits are the foil/protagonist. In one D&D campaign I was playing a halfling gloom stalker ranger, and it was one of my favorite characters I've ever played.
I think stealing living lobster counts as a good heist, because it doesn’t keep after it dies.
I Have Thoughts is a decent name for the podcast. You know, for the 100th episode naming special you have planned.
They should have made Not-Gandalf (who is totally Gandalf given they have him say a Gandalf line from the trilogy) be Glorfindel since that would actually align with the canon, rather than Gandalf showing up 2000 years early.
Have you seen Paper Girls, it was actually quite good. I knew there was a comic and after watching the show I had to give it a try, the thought of trying to bring that into the screen is crazy, but I think they did pretty well. Too bad it got canceled after the first season.
The writing was all over the place, but I think I'm more on the Dan side of my enjoyment of rings of power. They should have saved numeror fighting for next season, and Galadriel should have brought Halbran as a witness that there were orcs on a war path to ask for a squadron, so he just gets into contact with the forging much sooner.
Brian K. Vaughan is the writer on Paper Girls and I love his work. His most popular comic is still ongoing and so good called Saga.
Payne and McKay did an interview for Vanity Fair quoted in Screenrant: Why Rings Of Power’s Witches Look Like LOTR’s Ringwraiths Explained 27.10.22. Apparently we are seeing through not-Gandalf's eyes:
Payne: I think what you’re reading is, there are glimpses into the unseen world where the true form of something is revealed. You’re seeing what is underneath the form that they’ve been presenting. Were they defeated, or were they just temporarily vanquished? I think that’s a story point that people can be thinking about... That’s him seeing into the Unseen world. The ring takes you into that place where you can see the true form of things.
McKay: We’re riffing on the visual language of that. But also we like the idea that there are different forms of magic in Tolkien. The visual storytelling hopefully suggests that these witches are lesser conjurers than one of the wizards would be, and are bested here, but they escape in another form. Their true appearance in the world of the unseen is hideous and horrible and some kind of magic is making them beautiful. While the visual language is a little similar to the Nazgûl, we’re also thinking about Macbeth and we’re thinking about the old crones and the three witches and just trying to come up with something strange and weird. We know they come from Rhûn, and we know there are magic cults in Rhûn, which is one of the things Tolkien writes about. So maybe there’s a slightly different kind of magic and we can peel back the layers in future seasons.
My new favorite podcast.
Well, yes, Adar is pretty good. The concept is interesting (not true lore, but potential lore, and very focused on the themes) and the acting is possibly the best. One can sort of believe "that's a character".
So I live in Nebraska near where these meat thefts have happened and it's been big news here for the last few months.
There's a huge big meat packing plant in Central Nebraska which employs around 3,000 people so it's a huge deal around here.
The thing I would point out with events happening concurrently, which is definitely an issue, is that everyone saw the meteor in a super awkward sequence. So is the idea that the Harfoot story is actually happening after everything else, given the travel montage you mentioned? That was something that really bugged me from a story-telling perspective. Why establish that and then play fast and loose with time and space?
Those Moth Wraith ladies cannot be ring wraiths as we don’t have rings in the picture. Rather their spirits seem somehow lost to the unseen world. This makes perfect sense if NotGandalf is Pallando….We have 2 Blue Wizards in canon that arrive in the 2nd age and don’t have narratives attached to them. Tolkien sometimes said they failed and became leaders of magic cults (Moth Wraith Ladies), and sometimes said they actually succeeded and if not for done whatever it was they did in the East, then Sauron would have had tipping power in there war of the ring. SO, the show can split the difference. One bad Blue Wizard, one good, these ladies are the cultists of the bad and why they say about NotGandlaf “He is the other one,” meaning other Wizard. The show can keep with canon AND have a Gandalf vs Saruman dynamic, also allowing for the harfoots to do something meaningful without needing to explain why no one has ever heard of hobbits. If it’s in the East, it’s like a new area of the map to tell stories. It’s perfect for what this adaption is. I think the fact that these ladies have both wraith imagery but also moth imagery, which we’ve seen incidentally tied to wizards before, implicates a wizard is behind their evil. And that implicates a 2nd wizard, and if your going to have 2 wizards in the 2nd age, how can you not have the 2 blue wizards whom Tolkien fans have been dying to know more about for decades.