Exactly! Calvinism has the hubris to tell God who He is allowed to die for, and slanders God's consistent character that He desires to present throughout the Scripture. I can still love the Calvinist, but their philosophy is insulting my Lord.
I read an article on 9Marks that gave Calvinist pastors a 5 year plan for taking a non-Calvinist congregation to becoming a Calvinist congregation. It's absolutely horrible. Churches who are "traditional" southern baptist are being taken over by these deceptive men. Why would or should anyone in those congregations trust such a man who has no integrity? But they seem to be okay with it. They also stack the leadership with Calvinists. Why do they see the need to do this. Go start your own church and make it a Calvinist church. Why don't they go on staff in a baptist church that is already Calvinistic?
These two men are 'cult leaders' and nothing more. Paul talks about these types who will come into the flock and will want to destroy them with heresies!!!
I never had a stealth Calvinism incident at a church I was already going to, but I did almost join a Calvinist church because they were very quiet about their ideology until the membership class. They're sneaky in multiple directions it seems.
My wife and I went through the exact same scenario when we left our church because they went completely bonkers with Coocoovid rules and joined, unknowingly, a reformed assembly. Since Calvinism never came up as a discussion in our 37 years of marriage or with other friends,we decided to attend this church. After a few months of attending this new church, the 'young restless' and reformed pastor started preaching subtle Calvinistic doctrines i.e. the elect, predestined, decreed, etc. When we started sharing in the home bible study we joined, the people started getting increasingly confrontational to the point of asking us if we knew our Bibles; We are both 65. I have a BA in theology and several diplomas in Christian counseling. My wife has a degree in Sociology & B.A. in Education, and have been believers for over 40 years, so, obviously we are idiots!!) It got so bad that my wife came home one night in tears because what was once a really friendly fellowship turned out to be an exercise in futility when all we wanted to do was share our views on salvation, instead they were trying to indoctrinate us into this Cult. We left a year later after realizing that this is one of the most judgemental and self righteous bunch of 'christians' we had ever encountered. Calvinism is evil and wicked and is destroying many fellowships. I despise it with all my heart. We often pray for them.
I had a conversation with a Calvinist pastor who tried convincing me that placing my faith in Jesus for salvation was "doing something" For my salvation. He was surprised to hear me say "yes what's the problem with that?" He said "there is nothing you can do to earn salvation" I smiled and said " yes I know!" I asked "do you think faith is a work?" Because the Bible says in Ephesians " It is by grace you have been saved through faith and not of your works" Of course he said no faith is not a work. I said ok then my faith is counted as Righteousness because I'm trusting in the one who is righteous. And if God does everything including giving us our faith then no one has ever put THEIR FAITH in Jesus! God is the only one who has ever trusted in Jesus??? That means you never trusted in Jesus? Maybe you should go back and re think TULIP
When I was calvinist (not by studying the Bible but studying reformed theology) I was also a stealth calvinist preacher. Using buzzwords and quotes from calvinists without telling it.
I'm watching this video because my Calvary Chapel church is considering making a reformed person an elder. They won't be a pastor, but it seriously has me being skeptical of the downstream effects.
Thank you guys! I wrote up a whole thing about this a while back - The same vocabulary, different dictionary of Calvinism is insufferable: Calvinism Says Total Depravity; But it means; Total Inability to recognize one's depravity and recognize their need for the Gospel; unless God interjects a regeneration, that effectually causes you to have faith, then determinately makes you believe, then applies the Holy Spirit not because of your personal repentance and acceptance of Him but because it is the next stage in His unilateral predetermined selection process that is arbitrarily decided based on God's unknowable partiality. Calvinism Says Unconditional Election; But it means; Arbitrary Selection of individuals before the foundation of the world, to be lucky election lottery winners, by God's static decision which is locked in and cannot be changed even by God Himself. And by the selection of individuals to have the ability to believe, it is unilaterally refusing to give that ability to all others. Calvinism Says Limited Atonement; But it means; Gatekeeping Salvation. It is the hubris of telling Jesus who He was allowed to sacrifice Himself for on their systematic. Calvinism Says Irresistible Grace; But it means; Compulsory Passive Retrofitted Grace. Calvinism presumes that you accept the grace of God because you had no ability to choose otherwise, and only accepted the grace because God had already injected faith in you in order for you to believe in the first place. It is presumptuously retrofitting compulsion in order to explain why you recognized your need for grace. Calvinism Says Perseverance of the Saints; But it means; Preservation of Static Predetermined Pre-Designated Sainthood. It's all part of a very robotic, disassociated, non-personal, emotionally devoid systematic procedure from a Gnostic God who is just a "power" and "force" not a living person. Calvinism lauds over the hyper focus on God's "Sovereignty", but ironically enough diminishes the image of God's sovereignty by limiting Him to static predeterminate outcomes, and the inability to fulfill His will unless He is meticulously determining the outcome. It ironically puts the focus on "the special chosen" and asserts that because the elect are pre-chosen by God, they are made ontologically better than others, this making it a man-centered philosophy. And it, slanders God's character by rejecting God's consistent desire to be merciful, gracious, compassionate, long-suffering, forgiving, and self-sacrificial.
So I recently joined a Baptist church in the DFW area. Smaller congregation. New leadership team. One Sunday the pastor is exegeting Ephesians 1:18 in his sermon. I approach the assistant pastor after the service and comment, "It really sounded like Pastor X was teaching pre-faith regeneration". He brushed it off and said something about "well it all happens together and so fast..." Later on, after I keep digging, the same assistant pastor informs me that the pastor and both assistant pastors are all Calvinists! I was dumbfounded. This was a Baptist church?? Now I am honestly thinking I need to have a sit-down with the pastor to learn what he truly believes, because I can't in goos conscience have my family in a Calvinist congregation. I didnt know what to call it until now, but I fear my congregation was infected by Stealth Calvinists... One other thing that caught my attention. In my conversation with said assistant pastor, when talking about double-predestination, he said "That's definitely not something we teach here". TEACH here? Teach YET? What about BELIEVE? His choice of words was oddly specific.
One of the most challenging things to work through when discussing with a Calvinist is that they seem to assume you have all the same assumptions that they do, with the single exception of the one you're currently arguing against. Hence, responses to a belief in God-given free will like: "That means you believe that you are making the atonement effective, and God is just waiting to see whether we are going to save ourselves." No, we're not Calvinist-light, we're reading Scripture to see what it says about these things, so we have come to a worldview that works together with Scripture, not a 'mostly-Calvinism except for one thing that doesn't fit because we want to save ourselves.'
@borisvandruff7532 if UA-cam deletes the link (because I've noticed sometimes that happens when links are posted in the comment fields), it's located on the G3 UA-cam channel, one year ago. It's a 4 min video clip of an interview with MacArthur titled, Embracing the Doctrines of Grace.
@@peterfox7663expounding the scriptures biblically is different than taking Calvanistic doctrine, putting it into the text and tweaking the meaning of the text and the meaning of words to make it work.
It's like inviting someone to your wedding & when they RSVP their acceptance, you write back & berate them for being presumptuous in thinking you'd be so impressed by their fancy RSVP you'd actually let them come!🤷🤔
It seems to me "assurance" is based on iether. 1) knowing you are elect Or 2) being sure that God is true to his word that is given.. repent and be saved. #1 is actually unknowable. But #2 is the essense of faith.
A key point about irresistible grace might have been overlooked: those who have not been given grace have no chance of ever receiving it. They cannot believe because they were not chosen to be given faith.
Basically, God is saying repent and believe but your hands are tied and you never ever will be given the chance, the want to believe, but then it's your fault because you're depraved. It's all for God's glory that he's caused you to stay in your depraved state. This totally goes against the God of the rest of Scripture. Essentially God is the cause of good and evil. Not biblical at all
The God of Calvinism is like a lifeguard at a public pool who throws a bunch of non swimming little kids into the deep end and then jumps in to save just a few when he could have saved them all. The ones he saved are supposed to praise his graceful act of saving them while the ones he didn't save are blamed because they got into the pool when they couldn't swim.
@@4jchan Actually, it's the most apt one I've heard. Usually, I hear it from the man-centered view, that we are dead - completely dead - and need to be made alive. That there's no state of semi-consciousness that can reach out and grab the life ring. True. This one just goes the step further and accurately points out what happens to the ones that don't get pulled out of the water, and why it happens to them.
My current church is very Calvinistic. I would not say that I affirm tulip, but I do appreciate the teaching. I say that while also believing that a lot of reformed theology seems to be a complicating over correction. My love for the Lord and the church has definitely increased since I joined my current church. I am interested in learning more about provisionsm. The arrogance that I encounter with online calvinism is troubling. Do you have any provisionist authors that you would recommend? Thanks for the video.
@@Elle77777 Leighton should be avoided. He does not do exegesis and uses human analogies all the time to twist the text. Go to 'Theocast" they put Christ first in all their teaching and explain reformed theology very well. ua-cam.com/video/nCna6v28IpI/v-deo.html And " Sovereign grace" ua-cam.com/video/ytSc8E5XmfU/v-deo.html
The problem with tulip go from the initial state of man post fall and either decrees everything that happens, or act as though God isn't active throughout creation at all times
Hi, Drew and Eric, It's a good podcast, as always. I love hearing your thoughts. Stealth Calvinism, whether good or bad, is a persuasive argument for the organic appearance of monergism in the church. There seem to be a good number of people outside of the Calvinist tradition, people growing in the soil of their local non-Calvinist church, who eventually become "Calvinistic." I am one example: I was saved in a charismatic/strong Pentecostal "free will" context and lived without knowing about Calvinism for the first two decades of my Christian life. I kept hearing whispers in my circles, "Psst... don't talk to so-and-so, he's a Calvinist." .... then I would go and talk to so-and-so and not understand why that person was so controversial! In my own anecdotal experience, "the Calvinist" almost always ended up being the better bible scholar than most of my charismatic friends. That was weird to me, and I wanted to explain why better biblical scholarship (in my young view!) was being punished by my charismatic family. On top of that, while I felt loved and accepted by my charismatic brothers and sisters (STILL DO! :D), I felt like an odd duck in those early years, and I didn't know why. I didn't quite fit in, and something intangible was "missing" in that I didn't see things like my charismatic friends did! One day, in God's providence, without the help of any secretive Calvinist infiltrators, I found a book to study (Gordon H. Clark's "What Do Presbyterians Believe?") and studied it, and found it contained the missing key for me! I was "confessional," and when I read those pages, I realized that earlier, even though I didn't "know" what Calvinism was, as soon as I was exposed to it in that book, all of a sudden I realized that was what I had always been, I just didn't know what it was called! So, I didn't come to Calvinism by hanging out with Calvinists socially or by being recruited into some secret Masonic fraternity; I came to it by reading their scholarship and being impressed by it! So, I'm a "stealth" Calvinist in that sense. I'm not the product of some "infiltration." I just read and studied and found out that is what I was. Does that somehow sound sinister to you?! It doesn't to me. I think that "anti-Calvinists" (my word for those who are not only not Calvinist, but who are somehow opposed to Calvinism growing in numbers and influence) have a tough job in cases like mine (and others!) to explain how those who weren't mentored by Calvinists but just studying off in our own little social circles still ended up coming to Calvinism. What do you think about such an origin story?! :) Thanks again, as always, for the thoughtful content! JC Bear
So far behind. I think the "saved" language is often problematic. We trust God, and put our faith in Christ. We believe Christ died and rose again. So we Hope in his promise to be raised to new life as Christ is raised. When we speak of "I am saved" we are short handing the Gospel message to others, and that creates opportunities for confusion.
Are you a 4, 5, 6 or 30 point Calvinist? All these labels are damaging to the body of Christ. No one actually agrees what the word "Calvinist" means. People spend more time arguing what the word means and never actually talk about scripture....
I was involved in a small Church set up here about a little over 20 years ago. I found out some people they wanted to actually become board members and etcetera. Well thankfully the pastor was a little more strong-headed than some people thought. The people left only to find out later they basically wanted to become board members they wanted to change the church's name they wanted to change the pastor excetera excetera and guess who these folks were 😊
You need to bring in Kevin Thompson to talk about Stealth Calvinism and how he covered Debbie and Marsha’s excommunication from their church that was infiltrated by a stealth Calvinist.
Kevin had some excellent stuff on Calvanism but he's veered off into some strange things. I stopped listening to him after his interviews with Marsha and Debbie...
@@Elle77777Very true...your "stage of faith" isn't high enough🤦🏻♀️Someone wrote him an email warning him of the dangers of the contemplative type practices he's been encouraging. He said he and his wife lost their composure reading the email. It was disheartening listening to him read the email out loud to his subscribers and admit they just laughed at him. I agreed with everything the guy who wrote the said.
@@Elle77777 I dont think he really cares whether you reach his level of knowing. All his levels of knowing is just a means of measuring where we need to go in our sanctification. We’re called to grow in wisdom and understanding. Paul prayed for believers to grow in Ephesians 1:17 in wisdom and revelation. Trading in one ideology in Calvinism for another (Provisionism, Free Grace) isn’t going to help you in your journey. I personally lean towards a Molinist/Provisionist understanding of soteriology, with a sprinkle of Arminian prevenient grace.
I like Kevin on his teaching of stealth Calvinism. I don't understand some of the things he's getting into. The fact that he is no longer attending a church because he feels everyone is into some type of systematic that he doesn't believe in is troubling. But I get it. He's getting into lots of philosophy and going down paths that the normal Christian is not going to understand or go down. It seems the more you investigate, the more you see the manipulation and sin in pastors, congregants, systems, agendas, it can cause you to distrust everyone! I don't think God wants us to run away from the churches, but it is hard when you have an ear for hearing things. I am sickened when I see the manipulation in the SBC denomination (mine) organization, churches, seminaries, missions organizations... Makes you want to leave but what's the alternative? Other denominations have their own issues of apostasy, liberalism, wokeism... Pastors are failing in all denominations, there are tare everywhere among the wheat . As Christians we need to read the Bible for ourselves and follow as best we can and never lift any man or organization up on a pedestal. Men fail and fall. Faith like a child saves. It's harder sometimes for those who go deeper on some of the ideas. I get why they do it, but it makes it harder than if you just read your NT (in light of the OT, of course) and follow what Jesus, Paul and the other writers said.
That's such a great point from 11:20 to 15:10 !! Why are you considered about the "better person"? (God set it up that way. We believe God allows/wants us to come to him through faith.)
The idea that an action is synonymous with a work seems like a very scientific or modern legal way of way thinking about things. I think it's unlikely that this is what the NT authors had in mind.
I think one stumbling block is that under capitalist thinking, work has no objective value and so a fair wage is simply any payment both the employer and worker both agree to. This means any scenario in which a person is promised something in return for performing an action would be considered work. However, I think it's clear that Paul was using a framework in which labour did have an objective value, and therefore demanded payment of equal value as a moral obligation or debt. So salvation by works would mean performing works equal in value to salvation, which of course Paul said was not the gospel, and instead we were being promised a reward of greater value than any action we could perform to obtain it.
God doesn’t offer salvation He grants it. Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. It’s a gift you can’t refuse. It is done to you. No? John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
The title is oh so true. Sadly it already had crept in... We are forced to swallow the biggest blue pill... I just stayed because I love the people in our church...
it was actually really interesting getting to hear Eric's opinion on apostasy. I did not know that a provisionist could hold to that doctrine. I completely agree with him! I would love to hear how Eric differs from classical Arminians.
Provisionists deny Total Depravity. Provisionism doesn't take a position on whether a person can leave the faith or not, just that a person is not saved if they are not a believer
We left our church earlier this year because of stealth Calvinism. Long story short. I finally asked the pastor what he told the deacons when he was getting interviewed for the job (the church was historically against Calvinism). He told them "if by calvinism you mean.....(He then proceeded to paint the best caricature of Calvinism he could)...the no I am not that" he continued, "but I do believe God is sovereign over our salvation..." And then proceeded to "tell them" what he believed without actually telling them. I asked a Deacon and his associate Pastor if they knew he was a Calvinist. They had no clue. He lied and we had to leave. It broke my heart man. It still hurts.
So sorry to hear that. My wife and I went through a very similar experience in 2022. We were truly heartbroken because we thought we had found a solid church, but it wasn't to be so. The minute we started sharing what our views were on salvation, our home Bible study members turned on us and we left in tears. This is a demonic doctrine and it's time normal Christian call it for what it is, evil!!!
@@eugenejoseph7076 Then there's that moment when you realize your church group is more-or-less antinomian Free Grace folks. It's disappointing as well. They don't kick you out, but they are frustrating to deal with.
Anyone interested in this subject should go to Leighton Flowers channel. He has tons of videos laid out to counter Calvinism . I appreciate the attempt but this is pretty rough. I found it more confusing...just saying
Well in my opinion the Tulip summarization was a little off. For example T- totally depraved/ God haters . Doing it a little more in depth. I thought you guys hit on each letter but it just didn't seem complete or that you guys understand how calvinist use that to affirm thats what the Bible teaches. w@TheProvisionistPerspective
@@stevesmith-dx1ec I don't know that they were trying to detail each letter of TULIP, merely pointing out the person who posted this acrostic of TULIP did so disingenuously
@stevesmith-dx1ec Respectfully i think you may have missed the point of the video. The Tulip they were going through and criticizing was from someone else who wasn't being honest with what TULIP really means. As in, most Christians could agree with a lot of what it's saying, but it's not really calvinism. It was deceptive was the point.
It is established that stealth Calvinism is true. What I don't understand is why are the members who have been there for years leaving, rather than getting rid of the wolf in sheep's clothing Calvinist pastor? Why are the stealth Calvinist pastors being handed over the church and all its resources while it's the members who are surrendering instead of fighting back?
@@titosantiago3694 usually it’s because the pastor has managed to gather enough purchase among the members to have folks who are on his team vs the old team
The Eastern Orthodox Church is eternally grateful for Stealth Calvinism, which has caused recent phenomenal growth in the Orthodox Church. When a Stealth Calvinist Pastor destroys a church with the various tactics that purge the more knowledgeable and spiritually mature Christians' from his church, those members go searching for a new home. They look for a church that rejects most of the precepts of Calvinism. In this way, Stealth Calvinism ensures that all the best former members flock to the Orthodox Church. I dare say that the Catechumens (Candidates for Membership) have been outnumbering the Members this year. It is interesting to note that if a Catechumen states that he left because he had spats with Calvinists he is told that Confession is not the proper place to boast about his good deeds.
Talking about the word "merit" Calvinists are so disingenuous is either redefining words entirely or defining them SO narrowly. Creating memes from them and feeding them to their own, like red meat to hungry dogs. I think it was Pritchet who said, "merit can mean worth, as in "that idea has merit"", like thats a great idea! No normal thinking person hears, "that idea has merit" and takes it to mean the guy with said idea is DOING anything, or that they worship themselves, think themselves "Soveriegn" over God...etc. These people are non compos mentis!😅
The point of being saved is for God to bring us into fellowship with Him and God perfecting His love in us. The kingdom life is us learning to love God with all of our heart soul and mind and others as ourselves. This is the born again life in Christ.
Just found your podcast!! Love it. Here is a freebie for you. Calvinism should have chosen the Daisy as their flower of choice. Why? "He loves me. He loves me not. He loves me. He loves me not....etc etc" You're welcome.
As many have pointed out this tertiary view, has nothing to do w/ the foundation of salvation! I’m more concerned w/ cafes in churches, (like the doves) homosexuality is running rampant and THAT is a soteriological issue!
What about traditionally non-Calvinist Christian universities? I am concerned about the new Provost at Biola. He came straight from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I can tell he’s Calvinist. Pretty sure his position oversees all the new faculty hires.😬
The atonement is only one part of being saved. I like to put it like this we are saved being saved and will be saved through the redemption of our body ( adopted)!
Traditionalism and Calvinism both are partially right and partially wrong. Let me explain. The Bible doesn’t teach us to decide to choose God. We are called to believe. How can one believe if one is not sent to them to share the Good News. The Good News is THE Power of God that gives birth to Faith. Salvation is God’s work in your mind (turning it) and in your heart bringing to Life Faith and Love. We are Born of God. No one has ever been responsible for their own birth. You can reject or deny this TRUTH but it doesn’t change the fact that it is The Truth. Here’s where I depart from Calvinist. The Bible is also very clear. Men choose to deny, reject or suppress the Gospel and Obedience. The devil offers us a choice away from the Truth. So men are rightfully condemned for making a choice to reject God. God is fully responsible for saving us and changing us by revealing The Truth about His Justice and Goodness to us. It’s the Truth and being exposed to The Truth change those men that don’t ‘choose’ to reject the Truth. We don’t choose God we find belief in Him, Trust Him and Love for Him coming alive in us as we get to Know Him, as He is shared with us.
No, God does not responsible for our salvation, what have we done to make ourself worthy to be saved? No, God is doing whatever He wanted including if He wanted to save human. God did that because He is consistent with Himself.
Good thoughts. I disagree with you saying that provisionism minimizes The effects of sin. I believe the Calvinist minimizes sin, the scripture, “you are a slave to sin” (paraphrased) would not work because of total deprivity and Limited Atonement. Without some sense of free will. Remember Calvinists do not believe in free will at all. That is why many Calvinists go to compatibility to explain how God is the author of sin. So these are hard concepts to review in light of scripture and that is why the stealth Calvinist is so successful.
I'm labeled calvinist just because I believe scripture about our condition before salvation. Corinthians says that Paul's gospel is foolishness to the natural man. Romans is clear that none seek for God. He MUST regenerate the dead sinner to realize their desperate need of a Saviour
So, if God offers me salvation and I decide to take the free gift being offered to me, then I have “worked” for my own salvation, and am now trying to “earn” God’s grace? So, if I bought my brother a new car, and offered it to him, and he receives it, and comes to my house to pick it up, and then takes possession of the keys, and even drives away in it, and even keeps it, and puts gas in it, changes the oil, tires, maintenance, etc. What part of that is him doing ANYTHING to actually EARN the car I gave him and that he is enjoying? Hint…..NOTHING!! You would have to be a special kind of stupid to even consider that. So in conclusion: Stupid is, as stupid does.
Hmmm. Let me challenge you. Increase your belief in God right now. Go ahead. Just start believing more right now. I’m waiting. How about this. Increase your Faith in God right now. Again, go ahead. I’m waiting. Let’s do one more. Increase your Love for God right now. If you’re honest you couldn’t do any of these things. So how do they come. They only come by hearing. As you hear what Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, Moses or Joshua share with you about The Father and Son, only then do you find Belief in and Faith in and Love for God coming alive in you. If you aren’t in the Word, then the work of God in other believers hearts, compels them to share The Truth about God with you. As they Lift Him up to you. The Truth begins to give life to a New Desire to know more. This desire compels us to seek to hear more. The more we hear about God the more understanding comes alive in us and gives birth to Faith, Hope and Love and much more Spiritual Changes. As these New things come alive in you then you are compelled to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. Being exposed to the Truth changes us. It just does. It WILL not let us stay in a place of unknowing. The Truth itself Moves us closer to God. We can choose to deny or reject the Truth but those that don’t WILL be Transformed by Him. The point is we don’t choose to believe. We don’t choose to have Faith. We don’t choose to Love God. As God is Revealed to us He does that Spiritual Work in us if we don’t deny Him or Reject Him. He imparts Belief in Him, Faith in Him and Love for Him.
@ Are you sure about that? You must accept Christ today? As if that action ‘along’ with what Christ did is what saves us. Or I have decided to follow Jesus. As if that is ‘part’ of the salvation processes. I’ve heard the mocking of Joshua “choose you this day whom you will serve” as if that has to do with salvation. But Joshua was mocking them asking them, do you serve the false gods of your ancestors or the false gods of today. If we believe we must choose Christ to be saved or accept Christ to be saved or you must decide today whom you will serve as part of our salvation then you’re teaching another Gospel. The Truth (Christ) Transforms us and those that Faith is coming alive in are moved by that Faith to confess Christ before men. Men that have authentic Faith, that are Born of The Spirit are saved. Not those who simply confess they are saved.
@@mebsteve47 Faith and love are choices. A person grows or declines in faith and love over time depending on how that person chooses to work on those areas.
@@peterfox7663 Faith and Love are a choice? Then I could get to heaven without the Gospel. If I could simply choose to have Faith in God and Love God by choice then what does the Gospel actually do for me? Ok Jesus died for my sins. Thats great but what is it that Transforms my heart? What then gives Life to a New Spirit in me. And what does the Spirit actually accomplish in my Life if I can produce Spiritual changes in my own Life by choice? Sir, The Gospel is The Power of God that Transformed me. Not my choice. The Gospel is The Wisdom of God that entered into my Life and Changed my choices. The Gospel is the Power of God that opened my Spiritual Eyes to SEE The Goodness of God and began to give birth to Faith in God and Love for God. Yes The Goodness of God in Christ is Transforming me daily the more I hear about and am reminded about the Goodness of God in Christ. I didn’t really Know the Truth about Him or His Spirit but now I am getting to Know Him. I didn’t seek Him until The Gospel opened my eyes to begin to SEE Him. As He revealed Himself to me through The Message of His Son, He gave Life to a New Desire to seek Him and Know Him and Trust Him and Love Him. His Message about His Goodness is giving to me Belief in Him, Faith in Him and Love for Him. I cannot say it’s my choice. It’s His Goodness that’s giving life to New Spiritual Life in me. It’s not because I first loved Him but because He first Loved me. And as I was told about His Love for me expressed in Christ His Son, I FOUND Love for God coming alive in me. As I heard about His Promise long ago to send His Son and He was Faithful in fulfilling His Promise, Faith in Him began to come alive in me as my eyes were opened to His Faithfulness. I cannot confess differently. The Truth Revealed to me is Transforming me, bringing to Life within me a New Spirit. A Spirit of Love, a Spirit of Faithfulness and Joy. He’s at work in me creating in me a New Man. I am absolutely not a Calvinist. Because I see in the Scriptures the devil is the one that sets before us free choice. And we choose to reject God by choice. The devil offers the lie, the alternative to God and hides the Truth about God. There is One Truth. The Truth, when revealed to us is what Transforms us. We don’t have a choice. The Truth is God said, do not eat of this tree! The day you eat you will die! That’s not a choice! That’s The Truth. The devil offered the choice. It’s the Truth that Changes us. The Truth gives birth to a New Spirit of Love, Faith, Hope, Joy, Patience, etc…
@@mebsteve47 "the Gospel" is simply the news of God's coming Kingdom and an invitation to be part of it. Frankly I don't know quite what it is you're trying to say here, but it sounds like you're saying a person has to be specially enabled to accept it (that's Calvinism).
Neither Calvinism nor Provisionism are the biblical gospel. Calvinism destroys both God and Man. Provisionism reduces salvation to decisionism. In Calvinism the Cross is irrelevant. Provisionism minimizes the effects of sin. Without the Holy Spirit no one comes to God. Without some measure of freewill sinners can't be held accountable. If God decreed all things exhaustively then there is no distinction between good and evil and God is not free because He decreed all His acts.
, I like to think of the Titanic when I think of total depravity. We are on the ship speeding toward danger oblivious to the danger having fun or debauchery and sinful stuff going on and we don't even know our own lives are at stake so if not for the fact there were some boats to come rescue some of the survivors would anyone have survived
So if if you're in the ocean you can only swim for so long and a boat comes along to rescue you if you choose yes I want to be rescued climb into the Lifeboat you'll be saved if you reject you might not survive
That's not the definition of Total Depravity. Total Depravity distinguishes itself by positing that the lost don't even want to be saved and will never ever want to repent or get help unless they're metaphysically changed by God into a different sort of person (alive) before any sort of conversion even takes place.
So Provisionists believe, that God is good and he provides, both statements are true, however why don't you finish the sentence. Don't you think that the cross is a provision and not the finish work of Christ? The cross of Christ is a way God "provided" salvation but its up to you to accept that. Also I don't think that you guys have a good understanding of the attributes of God.
You didn't finish the sentence either my friend Salvation took the Cross, His burial, AND most importantly, the Resurrection. Romans 5:10 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. We hear preachers say this all the time: "We preach the finished work of Christ on the Cross...!" It "preaches good", and stirs up people's emotions in a Church service, but it's not accurate. It took the Cross, but were God to have stopped there, then we'd never experience Him in the New Jerusalem in renewed Celestial bodies (oiketerion), but would lay in our graves for eternity. He is a Living Savior, ready to give Life to whomever calls upon Him, in Faith. Take care
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi You still not addressing the question. You say the cross is the finished work of Christ but is the work finished if is left up to "whomever" ? So do you think Faith is a gift? And who do you think is the "whomever" are?
A Calvinist can never have assurance. They have to persist in the faith always and continue doing the works -which really seems to be the only evidence that they are saved. They have to really have a hard time when going through some sort of dark night of the soul, turmoil, depression, doubt... They can't ever know if they are led by God to believe falsely and then not to believe since God controls all. Look at what happened with Steve Lawson, one of the most famous Calvinists of this day. Did God cause him to teach Calvinism very strictly all the while having some sort of emotional relationship with a 20 something year old woman for 5 years? I'd love to hear what they all think about his salvation, what he thinks now.He hasn't persisted in carrying on with all the rules at this point. I hope he's examining his false theology and vibes to a true faith. The only thing they count on is their election and strive to prove it by doing all the works. So the work comes out of a pressure to to do the works to prove their election and salvation by obedience to rules rather than working for Christ as an outpouring of love and devotion to God because of his grace and salvation.
@@joshlin9693 All Christians need to persist in the faith to be saved. If you aren't in the faith, you aren't saved. I take it you hold to the Free Grace person.
A little off topic..... you guys are probably way too young to remember, but, y'all remind me of "Siskel & Ebert". ua-cam.com/video/Sh3l8cfsUYs/v-deo.html ...... a little humor there 🙃..... yes, I know, very little.
@TheProvisionistPerspective oh yes, the teachings about election and predistination are hard teachings that are taught only to matured believers. This are not taught to unbelievers that are invited to believe Jesus (or evangelization process).
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qiAnd it wasn't a mere cognitive, passive belief. Abraham had already trusted God and had demonstrated his faithfulness to Him, and that's the kind of believing (אָמַן - aman) that was counted to Abraham as righteousness. In the New Testament, the Greek verb πιστεύω (pisteuó), the noun πίστις (pistis), typically translated along the lines of 'believe' and 'faith/belief', the adjective πιστός (πιστός), respectively, all carry that same idea of _trusting faithulness._
You guys make yourselves equal to Christ and don't even see it. And for the sake of argument, my Calvinism is listed prominently on page 1 of my resume.
Do we save ourselves? YES.. by accepting Gods provision Jesus Christ, By accepting the Gospel of our Salvation. Calvinist see using Faith as a work and meritorious. It’s a lie. So when they say you’ve saved yourself.. ABSOLUTELY.. by choosing the Gospel. Ephesians 1:13 NKJV In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, By Grace we are saved THROUGH Faith AND THAT IS not of YOURSELVES.. it is a gift of God.. Faith comes and is given when hearing and believing Gods Word infused by Gods Spirit.. Rom 10:17. What happens when we hear Gods Word about Jesus… John 16:8-9 NKJV And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [9] of sin, because they do not believe in Me; The Holy Spirit convicts us.. if we accept we are in if not… we are out.. I am saved because I used my faith when getting convicted of my sins my Gods Holy Spirit..
Calvinist by and large do not try to convince people to become Calvinist. They only are trying to teach the truths of God's word and anticalvinist react. Only God can reveal the truth to His elect even if they believe arminianism. No need to try to convince someone to believe. That's God's work.
Calvinism isn't just a Soteriological issue. Its a character of God issue and a gospel issue.
I agree. The late Dave Hunt wrote a book about the calvinistic doctrines called "What love is this?". What kind of love represents calvinism?
@@bartleby1807 An Unconditional and Unmerited Love.
@@morefiction3264 Only for the "elect".
I came here to say the same!!!
Exactly!
Calvinism has the hubris to tell God who He is allowed to die for, and slanders God's consistent character that He desires to present throughout the Scripture.
I can still love the Calvinist, but their philosophy is insulting my Lord.
I read an article on 9Marks that gave Calvinist pastors a 5 year plan for taking a non-Calvinist congregation to becoming a Calvinist congregation. It's absolutely horrible. Churches who are "traditional" southern baptist are being taken over by these deceptive men. Why would or should anyone in those congregations trust such a man who has no integrity? But they seem to be okay with it. They also stack the leadership with Calvinists. Why do they see the need to do this. Go start your own church and make it a Calvinist church. Why don't they go on staff in a baptist church that is already Calvinistic?
Calvinists are the Democrats of pseudo Christianity.
Always reforming...
I would like to see that article
@@sonnyh9774 Then go and do your own research like I did. I didn't capture the article because it wasn't important to me.
Because there are too many Calvinists seminaries producing too many Calvinists pastors for the low number of Calvinist churches.😢
MacArthur and Piper were in a video essentially admitting they hid their views from their congregations for years
yes! I listened to that conversation. It was unbelievable!!!
Yes, they laughed about it, too. Deception in the church is good if it leads to Calvinism theology🤔
These two men are 'cult leaders' and nothing more. Paul talks about these types who will come into the flock and will want to destroy them with heresies!!!
My home church had a pastor who tried this same stuff. Called it "subversive leadership" - it did not work.
Please provide the video link.
I never had a stealth Calvinism incident at a church I was already going to, but I did almost join a Calvinist church because they were very quiet about their ideology until the membership class. They're sneaky in multiple directions it seems.
My wife and I went through the exact same scenario when we left our church because they went completely bonkers with Coocoovid rules and joined, unknowingly, a reformed assembly. Since Calvinism never came up as a discussion in our 37 years of marriage or with other friends,we decided to attend this church. After a few months of attending this new church, the 'young restless' and reformed pastor started preaching subtle Calvinistic doctrines i.e. the elect, predestined, decreed, etc. When we started sharing in the home bible study we joined, the people started getting increasingly confrontational to the point of asking us if we knew our Bibles; We are both 65. I have a BA in theology and several diplomas in Christian counseling. My wife has a degree in Sociology & B.A. in Education, and have been believers for over 40 years, so, obviously we are idiots!!) It got so bad that my wife came home one night in tears because what was once a really friendly fellowship turned out to be an exercise in futility when all we wanted to do was share our views on salvation, instead they were trying to indoctrinate us into this Cult. We left a year later after realizing that this is one of the most judgemental and self righteous bunch of 'christians' we had ever encountered. Calvinism is evil and wicked and is destroying many fellowships. I despise it with all my heart. We often pray for them.
I had a conversation with a Calvinist pastor who tried convincing me that placing my faith in Jesus for salvation was "doing something"
For my salvation. He was surprised to hear me say "yes what's the problem with that?"
He said "there is nothing you can do to earn salvation" I smiled and said " yes I know!"
I asked "do you think faith is a work?"
Because the Bible says in Ephesians " It is by grace you have been saved through faith and not of your works" Of course he said no faith is not a work. I said ok then my faith is counted as
Righteousness because I'm trusting in the one who is righteous. And if God does everything including giving us our faith then no one has ever put THEIR FAITH in Jesus! God is the only one who has ever trusted in Jesus???
That means you never trusted in Jesus?
Maybe you should go back and re think TULIP
When I was calvinist (not by studying the Bible but studying reformed theology) I was also a stealth calvinist preacher. Using buzzwords and quotes from calvinists without telling it.
How did you come out of it?
@joshlin9693 Reading honestly the Bible without seraching to find calvinism in it
I slowly learned that the overuse of "sovereignty" was a code feeler word for are you on my team? I was like why are you just repeating that word?😂
I'm watching this video because my Calvary Chapel church is considering making a reformed person an elder. They won't be a pastor, but it seriously has me being skeptical of the downstream effects.
Thank you guys for fighting for the goodness of God
Thank you guys!
I wrote up a whole thing about this a while back -
The same vocabulary, different dictionary of Calvinism is insufferable:
Calvinism Says Total Depravity;
But it means;
Total Inability
to recognize one's depravity and recognize their need for the Gospel;
unless God interjects a regeneration, that effectually causes you to have faith, then determinately makes you believe, then applies the Holy Spirit not because of your personal repentance and acceptance of Him but because it is the next stage in His unilateral predetermined selection process that is arbitrarily decided based on God's unknowable partiality.
Calvinism Says Unconditional Election;
But it means;
Arbitrary Selection
of individuals before the foundation of the world, to be lucky election lottery winners, by God's static decision which is locked in and cannot be changed even by God Himself.
And by the selection of individuals to have the ability to believe, it is unilaterally refusing to give that ability to all others.
Calvinism Says Limited Atonement;
But it means;
Gatekeeping Salvation.
It is the hubris of telling Jesus who He was allowed to sacrifice Himself for on their systematic.
Calvinism Says Irresistible Grace;
But it means;
Compulsory Passive Retrofitted Grace.
Calvinism presumes that you accept the grace of God because you had no ability to choose otherwise, and only accepted the grace because God had already injected faith in you in order for you to believe in the first place.
It is presumptuously retrofitting compulsion in order to explain why you recognized your need for grace.
Calvinism Says Perseverance of the Saints;
But it means;
Preservation of Static Predetermined Pre-Designated Sainthood.
It's all part of a very robotic, disassociated, non-personal, emotionally devoid systematic procedure from a Gnostic God who is just a "power" and "force" not a living person.
Calvinism lauds over the hyper focus on God's "Sovereignty",
but ironically enough diminishes the image of God's sovereignty by limiting Him to static predeterminate outcomes, and the inability to fulfill His will unless He is meticulously determining the outcome.
It ironically puts the focus on
"the special chosen" and asserts that because the elect are pre-chosen by God, they are made ontologically better than others, this making it a man-centered philosophy.
And it, slanders God's character by rejecting God's consistent desire to be merciful, gracious, compassionate, long-suffering, forgiving, and self-sacrificial.
@@AlexanderosD write the scriptures where your ideas originated. Without it nobody will believe you.
You two are awesomeness! Prayers for strength in fighting the good fight against Calvi.
So I recently joined a Baptist church in the DFW area. Smaller congregation. New leadership team.
One Sunday the pastor is exegeting Ephesians 1:18 in his sermon. I approach the assistant pastor after the service and comment, "It really sounded like Pastor X was teaching pre-faith regeneration". He brushed it off and said something about "well it all happens together and so fast..."
Later on, after I keep digging, the same assistant pastor informs me that the pastor and both assistant pastors are all Calvinists! I was dumbfounded. This was a Baptist church??
Now I am honestly thinking I need to have a sit-down with the pastor to learn what he truly believes, because I can't in goos conscience have my family in a Calvinist congregation.
I didnt know what to call it until now, but I fear my congregation was infected by Stealth Calvinists...
One other thing that caught my attention. In my conversation with said assistant pastor, when talking about double-predestination, he said "That's definitely not something we teach here". TEACH here? Teach YET? What about BELIEVE? His choice of words was oddly specific.
One of the most challenging things to work through when discussing with a Calvinist is that they seem to assume you have all the same assumptions that they do, with the single exception of the one you're currently arguing against.
Hence, responses to a belief in God-given free will like:
"That means you believe that you are making the atonement effective, and God is just waiting to see whether we are going to save ourselves."
No, we're not Calvinist-light, we're reading Scripture to see what it says about these things, so we have come to a worldview that works together with Scripture, not a 'mostly-Calvinism except for one thing that doesn't fit because we want to save ourselves.'
I remembering hearing MacArthur in an interview state he puts doctrine INTO the text to see if it survives 🤦🏻♀️
I’d ask you to post a link to that clip, because that’s a pretty wild claim.
@borisvandruff7532 if UA-cam deletes the link (because I've noticed sometimes that happens when links are posted in the comment fields), it's located on the G3 UA-cam channel, one year ago. It's a 4 min video clip of an interview with MacArthur titled, Embracing the Doctrines of Grace.
@@jules474 why wouldn't you test doctrine against passages?
@@peterfox7663expounding the scriptures biblically is different than taking Calvanistic doctrine, putting it into the text and tweaking the meaning of the text and the meaning of words to make it work.
@@borisvandruff7532haha that’s not wild at all, I’ve seen the same video.
It's like inviting someone to your wedding & when they RSVP their acceptance, you write back & berate them for being presumptuous in thinking you'd be so impressed by their fancy RSVP you'd actually let them come!🤷🤔
WELL PUT
It seems to me "assurance" is based on iether. 1) knowing you are elect
Or 2) being sure that God is true to his word that is given.. repent and be saved.
#1 is actually unknowable.
But #2 is the essense of faith.
Ultimately, Calvinism describes a God who cannot be trusted. It is essentially the same lie the Serpent proposed to Eve, warmed over.
A key point about irresistible grace might have been overlooked: those who have not been given grace have no chance of ever receiving it. They cannot believe because they were not chosen to be given faith.
Basically, God is saying repent and believe but your hands are tied and you never ever will be given the chance, the want to believe, but then it's your fault because you're depraved. It's all for God's glory that he's caused you to stay in your depraved state. This totally goes against the God of the rest of Scripture. Essentially God is the cause of good and evil. Not biblical at all
@@joshlin9693 amen
Even Mike Winger acknowledged stealth Calvinism in his recent video about Andy Stanley. Its good to see more people bring it to light
Andy Stanley is not a calvinist.
@memymo1310 I know. But Mike said that Andy's way of not being open with what his agenda was is similar to stealth Calvinist pastors
Mike is okay, but his analytical skills flounder when he talks about trinitarianism.
In the thumbnail picture, John Calvin looks like he's impersonating Guy Fawkes, which is appropriate considering Bonfire Night is under a week away...
The God of Calvinism is like a lifeguard at a public pool who throws a bunch of non swimming little kids into the deep end and then jumps in to save just a few when he could have saved them all. The ones he saved are supposed to praise his graceful act of saving them while the ones he didn't save are blamed because they got into the pool when they couldn't swim.
sorry Very bad analogy
@4jchan no, it's pretty good actually.
@@Fireking285 it's an utter misrepresentation of the Calvinistic view
@@4jchan in what way?
@@4jchan Actually, it's the most apt one I've heard. Usually, I hear it from the man-centered view, that we are dead - completely dead - and need to be made alive. That there's no state of semi-consciousness that can reach out and grab the life ring. True. This one just goes the step further and accurately points out what happens to the ones that don't get pulled out of the water, and why it happens to them.
My current church is very Calvinistic. I would not say that I affirm tulip, but I do appreciate the teaching. I say that while also believing that a lot of reformed theology seems to be a complicating over correction. My love for the Lord and the church has definitely increased since I joined my current church. I am interested in learning more about provisionsm. The arrogance that I encounter with online calvinism is troubling. Do you have any provisionist authors that you would recommend?
Thanks for the video.
Leighton Flowers is a Provisionist author.
@@Elle77777 Leighton should be avoided. He does not do exegesis and uses human analogies all the time to twist the text.
Go to 'Theocast" they put Christ first in all their teaching and explain reformed theology very well.
ua-cam.com/video/nCna6v28IpI/v-deo.html
And " Sovereign grace"
ua-cam.com/video/ytSc8E5XmfU/v-deo.html
Dr Leighton Flowers is great! He’s been there done that!!!
The problem with tulip go from the initial state of man post fall and either decrees everything that happens, or act as though God isn't active throughout creation at all times
Hi, Drew and Eric, It's a good podcast, as always. I love hearing your thoughts.
Stealth Calvinism, whether good or bad, is a persuasive argument for the organic appearance of monergism in the church. There seem to be a good number of people outside of the Calvinist tradition, people growing in the soil of their local non-Calvinist church, who eventually become "Calvinistic."
I am one example: I was saved in a charismatic/strong Pentecostal "free will" context and lived without knowing about Calvinism for the first two decades of my Christian life. I kept hearing whispers in my circles, "Psst... don't talk to so-and-so, he's a Calvinist." .... then I would go and talk to so-and-so and not understand why that person was so controversial! In my own anecdotal experience, "the Calvinist" almost always ended up being the better bible scholar than most of my charismatic friends. That was weird to me, and I wanted to explain why better biblical scholarship (in my young view!) was being punished by my charismatic family. On top of that, while I felt loved and accepted by my charismatic brothers and sisters (STILL DO! :D), I felt like an odd duck in those early years, and I didn't know why. I didn't quite fit in, and something intangible was "missing" in that I didn't see things like my charismatic friends did!
One day, in God's providence, without the help of any secretive Calvinist infiltrators, I found a book to study (Gordon H. Clark's "What Do Presbyterians Believe?") and studied it, and found it contained the missing key for me! I was "confessional," and when I read those pages, I realized that earlier, even though I didn't "know" what Calvinism was, as soon as I was exposed to it in that book, all of a sudden I realized that was what I had always been, I just didn't know what it was called! So, I didn't come to Calvinism by hanging out with Calvinists socially or by being recruited into some secret Masonic fraternity; I came to it by reading their scholarship and being impressed by it!
So, I'm a "stealth" Calvinist in that sense. I'm not the product of some "infiltration." I just read and studied and found out that is what I was. Does that somehow sound sinister to you?! It doesn't to me. I think that "anti-Calvinists" (my word for those who are not only not Calvinist, but who are somehow opposed to Calvinism growing in numbers and influence) have a tough job in cases like mine (and others!) to explain how those who weren't mentored by Calvinists but just studying off in our own little social circles still ended up coming to Calvinism. What do you think about such an origin story?! :)
Thanks again, as always, for the thoughtful content!
JC Bear
So far behind. I think the "saved" language is often problematic. We trust God, and put our faith in Christ. We believe Christ died and rose again. So we Hope in his promise to be raised to new life as Christ is raised.
When we speak of "I am saved" we are short handing the Gospel message to others, and that creates opportunities for confusion.
Disappointed there is no stealth bomber in the thumbnail. Reminiscent of spy vs spy tho
That was the exact model photo that I sent to Caleb to to make the thumbnail 😅
As a calvinist, I find all of this absolutely hilarious. Keep up the good work, y’all. 😂
Are you a 4, 5, 6 or 30 point Calvinist?
All these labels are damaging to the body of Christ. No one actually agrees what the word "Calvinist" means. People spend more time arguing what the word means and never actually talk about scripture....
@ Labels can be a good thing. They can help us find agreement. But most people don’t want to agree. They just want to talk past each other.
If we are in Christ He the Holy Spirt is in us until the day of redemption and we cannot be separated from the love of God.
I was involved in a small Church set up here about a little over 20 years ago. I found out some people they wanted to actually become board members and etcetera. Well thankfully the pastor was a little more strong-headed than some people thought. The people left only to find out later they basically wanted to become board members they wanted to change the church's name they wanted to change the pastor excetera excetera and guess who these folks were 😊
You need to bring in Kevin Thompson to talk about Stealth Calvinism and how he covered Debbie and Marsha’s excommunication from their church that was infiltrated by a stealth Calvinist.
Kevin had some excellent stuff on Calvanism but he's veered off into some strange things. I stopped listening to him after his interviews with Marsha and Debbie...
@@jules474Agreed. And if you disagree with him it’s apparently because you’re not at his level yet.
@@Elle77777Very true...your "stage of faith" isn't high enough🤦🏻♀️Someone wrote him an email warning him of the dangers of the contemplative type practices he's been encouraging. He said he and his wife lost their composure reading the email. It was disheartening listening to him read the email out loud to his subscribers and admit they just laughed at him. I agreed with everything the guy who wrote the said.
@@Elle77777 I dont think he really cares whether you reach his level of knowing. All his levels of knowing is just a means of measuring where we need to go in our sanctification.
We’re called to grow in wisdom and understanding. Paul prayed for believers to grow in Ephesians 1:17 in wisdom and revelation.
Trading in one ideology in Calvinism for another (Provisionism, Free Grace) isn’t going to help you in your journey.
I personally lean towards a Molinist/Provisionist understanding of soteriology, with a sprinkle of Arminian prevenient grace.
I like Kevin on his teaching of stealth Calvinism. I don't understand some of the things he's getting into. The fact that he is no longer attending a church because he feels everyone is into some type of systematic that he doesn't believe in is troubling. But I get it. He's getting into lots of philosophy and going down paths that the normal Christian is not going to understand or go down. It seems the more you investigate, the more you see the manipulation and sin in pastors, congregants, systems, agendas, it can cause you to distrust everyone! I don't think God wants us to run away from the churches, but it is hard when you have an ear for hearing things. I am sickened when I see the manipulation in the SBC denomination (mine) organization, churches, seminaries, missions organizations... Makes you want to leave but what's the alternative? Other denominations have their own issues of apostasy, liberalism, wokeism... Pastors are failing in all denominations, there are tare everywhere among the wheat . As Christians we need to read the Bible for ourselves and follow as best we can and never lift any man or organization up on a pedestal. Men fail and fall. Faith like a child saves. It's harder sometimes for those who go deeper on some of the ideas. I get why they do it, but it makes it harder than if you just read your NT (in light of the OT, of course) and follow what Jesus, Paul and the other writers said.
That's such a great point from 11:20 to 15:10 !! Why are you considered about the "better person"? (God set it up that way. We believe God allows/wants us to come to him through faith.)
I also agree that "Calvinists" practically deny faith in Jesus because they believe Election/Jesus dying = they're saved.
The idea that an action is synonymous with a work seems like a very scientific or modern legal way of way thinking about things. I think it's unlikely that this is what the NT authors had in mind.
I personally am digging into this point.
I think one stumbling block is that under capitalist thinking, work has no objective value and so a fair wage is simply any payment both the employer and worker both agree to. This means any scenario in which a person is promised something in return for performing an action would be considered work. However, I think it's clear that Paul was using a framework in which labour did have an objective value, and therefore demanded payment of equal value as a moral obligation or debt. So salvation by works would mean performing works equal in value to salvation, which of course Paul said was not the gospel, and instead we were being promised a reward of greater value than any action we could perform to obtain it.
Salvation is a gift (δῶρον) from God. An offering or award, BUT For nothing that we did or could do to impress God or move Him to save us.
No Christian disagrees
If that were true Paul wouldn’t have warned against boasting.
Yes and it is offered to all, not only some. Not all will accept the gift though. Accepting the gift is not a work.
Salvation is a gift so no one can take credit for it themselves.
God doesn’t offer salvation He grants it.
Rom 11:29
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
It’s a gift you can’t refuse. It is done to you. No?
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
The title is oh so true. Sadly it already had crept in... We are forced to swallow the biggest blue pill... I just stayed because I love the people in our church...
it was actually really interesting getting to hear Eric's opinion on apostasy. I did not know that a provisionist could hold to that doctrine. I completely agree with him! I would love to hear how Eric differs from classical Arminians.
What timestamp was this?
Provisionists deny Total Depravity. Provisionism doesn't take a position on whether a person can leave the faith or not, just that a person is not saved if they are not a believer
We left our church earlier this year because of stealth Calvinism. Long story short. I finally asked the pastor what he told the deacons when he was getting interviewed for the job (the church was historically against Calvinism). He told them "if by calvinism you mean.....(He then proceeded to paint the best caricature of Calvinism he could)...the no I am not that" he continued, "but I do believe God is sovereign over our salvation..." And then proceeded to "tell them" what he believed without actually telling them. I asked a Deacon and his associate Pastor if they knew he was a Calvinist. They had no clue. He lied and we had to leave. It broke my heart man. It still hurts.
So sorry to hear that. My wife and I went through a very similar experience in 2022. We were truly heartbroken because we thought we had found a solid church, but it wasn't to be so. The minute we started sharing what our views were on salvation, our home Bible study members turned on us and we left in tears. This is a demonic doctrine and it's time normal Christian call it for what it is, evil!!!
@@eugenejoseph7076 Then there's that moment when you realize your church group is more-or-less antinomian Free Grace folks. It's disappointing as well. They don't kick you out, but they are frustrating to deal with.
Anyone interested in this subject should go to Leighton Flowers channel. He has tons of videos laid out to counter Calvinism . I appreciate the attempt but this is pretty rough. I found it more confusing...just saying
@@stevesmith-dx1ec how do you think we could have made it less confusing?
Well in my opinion the Tulip summarization was a little off. For example T- totally depraved/ God haters . Doing it a little more in depth. I thought you guys hit on each letter but it just didn't seem complete or that you guys understand how calvinist use that to affirm thats what the Bible teaches. w@TheProvisionistPerspective
@@stevesmith-dx1ec I don't know that they were trying to detail each letter of TULIP, merely pointing out the person who posted this acrostic of TULIP did so disingenuously
@stevesmith-dx1ec Respectfully i think you may have missed the point of the video. The Tulip they were going through and criticizing was from someone else who wasn't being honest with what TULIP really means. As in, most Christians could agree with a lot of what it's saying, but it's not really calvinism. It was deceptive was the point.
It is established that stealth Calvinism is true. What I don't understand is why are the members who have been there for years leaving, rather than getting rid of the wolf in sheep's clothing Calvinist pastor?
Why are the stealth Calvinist pastors being handed over the church and all its resources while it's the members who are surrendering instead of fighting back?
@@titosantiago3694 usually it’s because the pastor has managed to gather enough purchase among the members to have folks who are on his team vs the old team
The Eastern Orthodox Church is eternally grateful for Stealth Calvinism, which has caused recent phenomenal growth in the Orthodox Church. When a Stealth Calvinist Pastor destroys a church with the various tactics that purge the more knowledgeable and spiritually mature Christians' from his church, those members go searching for a new home. They look for a church that rejects most of the precepts of Calvinism. In this way, Stealth Calvinism ensures that all the best former members flock to the Orthodox Church. I dare say that the Catechumens (Candidates for Membership) have been outnumbering the Members this year. It is interesting to note that if a Catechumen states that he left because he had spats with Calvinists he is told that Confession is not the proper place to boast about his good deeds.
Talking about the word "merit"
Calvinists are so disingenuous is either redefining words entirely or defining them SO narrowly. Creating memes from them and feeding them to their own, like red meat to hungry dogs.
I think it was Pritchet who said,
"merit can mean worth, as in "that idea has merit"", like thats a great idea!
No normal thinking person hears, "that idea has merit" and takes it to mean the guy with said idea is DOING anything, or that they worship themselves, think themselves "Soveriegn" over God...etc.
These people are non compos mentis!😅
The point of being saved is for God to bring us into fellowship with Him and God perfecting His love in us. The kingdom life is us learning to love God with all of our heart soul and mind and others as ourselves. This is the born again life in Christ.
Just found your podcast!! Love it. Here is a freebie for you. Calvinism should have chosen the Daisy as their flower of choice. Why? "He loves me. He loves me not. He loves me. He loves me not....etc etc" You're welcome.
LOL these guys are like " hey... WATCH OUT for those guys in your church saying God is Sovereign.... total CIA OP" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
As many have pointed out this tertiary view, has nothing to do w/ the foundation of salvation!
I’m more concerned w/ cafes in churches, (like the doves) homosexuality is running rampant and THAT is a soteriological issue!
What about traditionally non-Calvinist Christian universities? I am concerned about the new Provost at Biola. He came straight from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I can tell he’s Calvinist. Pretty sure his position oversees all the new faculty hires.😬
The atonement is only one part of being saved. I like to put it like this we are saved being saved and will be saved through the redemption of our body ( adopted)!
We made a choice and God chose us for service and predetermined us to be conformed to His image.
We are saved by His life.
Traditionalism and Calvinism both are partially right and partially wrong.
Let me explain.
The Bible doesn’t teach us to decide to choose God. We are called to believe.
How can one believe if one is not sent to them to share the Good News. The Good News is THE Power of God that gives birth to Faith.
Salvation is God’s work in your mind (turning it) and in your heart bringing to Life Faith and Love.
We are Born of God. No one has ever been responsible for their own birth. You can reject or deny this TRUTH but it doesn’t change the fact that it is The Truth.
Here’s where I depart from Calvinist. The Bible is also very clear. Men choose to deny, reject or suppress the Gospel and Obedience. The devil offers us a choice away from the Truth. So men are rightfully condemned for making a choice to reject God.
God is fully responsible for saving us and changing us by revealing The Truth about His Justice and Goodness to us. It’s the Truth and being exposed to The Truth change those men that don’t ‘choose’ to reject the Truth.
We don’t choose God we find belief in Him, Trust Him and Love for Him coming alive in us as we get to Know Him, as He is shared with us.
No, God does not responsible for our salvation, what have we done to make ourself worthy to be saved? No, God is doing whatever He wanted including if He wanted to save human. God did that because He is consistent with Himself.
Good thoughts. I disagree with you saying that provisionism minimizes
The effects of sin. I believe the Calvinist minimizes sin, the scripture, “you are a slave to sin” (paraphrased) would not work because of total deprivity and Limited Atonement. Without some sense of free will. Remember Calvinists do not believe in free will at all. That is why many Calvinists go to compatibility to explain how God is the author of sin. So these are hard concepts to review in light of scripture and that is why the stealth Calvinist is so successful.
Taking over your church? Calvinism is going to take over the world! #DatPostmill
Well, it's dying out again, like it always does.
So....
I'm labeled calvinist just because I believe scripture about our condition before salvation. Corinthians says that Paul's gospel is foolishness to the natural man. Romans is clear that none seek for God. He MUST regenerate the dead sinner to realize their desperate need of a Saviour
You're defining "natural man" incorrectly.
It is man in natural theology of the Greeks.
Completly different concept
Take care
Your second and third sentences are true.
So, if God offers me salvation and I decide to take the free gift being offered to me, then I have “worked” for my own salvation, and am now trying to “earn” God’s grace?
So, if I bought my brother a new car, and offered it to him, and he receives it, and comes to my house to pick it up, and then takes possession of the keys, and even drives away in it, and even keeps it, and puts gas in it, changes the oil, tires, maintenance, etc. What part of that is him doing ANYTHING to actually EARN the car I gave him and that he is enjoying? Hint…..NOTHING!! You would have to be a special kind of stupid to even consider that. So in conclusion: Stupid is, as stupid does.
Hmmm. Let me challenge you.
Increase your belief in God right now. Go ahead. Just start believing more right now. I’m waiting.
How about this.
Increase your Faith in God right now. Again, go ahead. I’m waiting.
Let’s do one more.
Increase your Love for God right now.
If you’re honest you couldn’t do any of these things.
So how do they come.
They only come by hearing. As you hear what Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, Moses or Joshua share with you about The Father and Son, only then do you find Belief in and Faith in and Love for God coming alive in you.
If you aren’t in the Word, then the work of God in other believers hearts, compels them to share The Truth about God with you. As they Lift Him up to you. The Truth begins to give life to a New Desire to know more. This desire compels us to seek to hear more. The more we hear about God the more understanding comes alive in us and gives birth to Faith, Hope and Love and much more Spiritual Changes.
As these New things come alive in you then you are compelled to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Being exposed to the Truth changes us. It just does. It WILL not let us stay in a place of unknowing. The Truth itself Moves us closer to God.
We can choose to deny or reject the Truth but those that don’t WILL be Transformed by Him.
The point is we don’t choose to believe.
We don’t choose to have Faith.
We don’t choose to Love God.
As God is Revealed to us He does that Spiritual Work in us if we don’t deny Him or Reject Him. He imparts Belief in Him, Faith in Him and Love for Him.
All Christians believe God initiates and no one believes we conjure more faith and love on our own.
@ Are you sure about that?
You must accept Christ today? As if that action ‘along’ with what Christ did is what saves us.
Or I have decided to follow Jesus. As if that is ‘part’ of the salvation processes.
I’ve heard the mocking of Joshua “choose you this day whom you will serve” as if that has to do with salvation. But Joshua was mocking them asking them, do you serve the false gods of your ancestors or the false gods of today.
If we believe we must choose Christ to be saved or accept Christ to be saved or you must decide today whom you will serve as part of our salvation then you’re teaching another Gospel.
The Truth (Christ) Transforms us and those that Faith is coming alive in are moved by that Faith to confess Christ before men. Men that have authentic Faith, that are Born of The Spirit are saved. Not those who simply confess they are saved.
@@mebsteve47 Faith and love are choices. A person grows or declines in faith and love over time depending on how that person chooses to work on those areas.
@@peterfox7663
Faith and Love are a choice?
Then I could get to heaven without the Gospel.
If I could simply choose to have Faith in God and Love God by choice then what does the Gospel actually do for me?
Ok Jesus died for my sins. Thats great but what is it that Transforms my heart? What then gives Life to a New Spirit in me. And what does the Spirit actually accomplish in my Life if I can produce Spiritual changes in my own Life by choice?
Sir, The Gospel is The Power of God that Transformed me. Not my choice. The Gospel is The Wisdom of God that entered into my Life and Changed my choices. The Gospel is the Power of God that opened my Spiritual Eyes to SEE The Goodness of God and began to give birth to Faith in God and Love for God.
Yes The Goodness of God in Christ is Transforming me daily the more I hear about and am reminded about the Goodness of God in Christ. I didn’t really Know the Truth about Him or His Spirit but now I am getting to Know Him. I didn’t seek Him until The Gospel opened my eyes to begin to SEE Him. As He revealed Himself to me through The Message of His Son, He gave Life to a New Desire to seek Him and Know Him and Trust Him and Love Him.
His Message about His Goodness is giving to me Belief in Him, Faith in Him and Love for Him. I cannot say it’s my choice. It’s His Goodness that’s giving life to New Spiritual Life in me.
It’s not because I first loved Him but because He first Loved me. And as I was told about His Love for me expressed in Christ His Son, I FOUND Love for God coming alive in me.
As I heard about His Promise long ago to send His Son and He was Faithful in fulfilling His Promise, Faith in Him began to come alive in me as my eyes were opened to His Faithfulness.
I cannot confess differently. The Truth Revealed to me is Transforming me, bringing to Life within me a New Spirit. A Spirit of Love, a Spirit of Faithfulness and Joy. He’s at work in me creating in me a New Man.
I am absolutely not a Calvinist. Because I see in the Scriptures the devil is the one that sets before us free choice. And we choose to reject God by choice. The devil offers the lie, the alternative to God and hides the Truth about God.
There is One Truth. The Truth, when revealed to us is what Transforms us. We don’t have a choice. The Truth is God said, do not eat of this tree! The day you eat you will die! That’s not a choice! That’s The Truth. The devil offered the choice.
It’s the Truth that Changes us. The Truth gives birth to a New Spirit of Love, Faith, Hope, Joy, Patience, etc…
@@mebsteve47 "the Gospel" is simply the news of God's coming Kingdom and an invitation to be part of it. Frankly I don't know quite what it is you're trying to say here, but it sounds like you're saying a person has to be specially enabled to accept it (that's Calvinism).
Are the stealth calvinists in the room with us right now?
😂
the one who comes up some other way is a thief and a liar
Non-trinitarian Universal Preterism!
Neither Calvinism nor Provisionism are the biblical gospel. Calvinism destroys both God and Man. Provisionism reduces salvation to decisionism. In Calvinism the Cross is irrelevant. Provisionism minimizes the effects of sin. Without the Holy Spirit no one comes to God. Without some measure of freewill sinners can't be held accountable. If God decreed all things exhaustively then there is no distinction between good and evil and God is not free because He decreed all His acts.
"Without the Holy Spirit no one comes to God"
What Christian disagrees with this?
, I like to think of the Titanic when I think of total depravity. We are on the ship speeding toward danger oblivious to the danger having fun or debauchery and sinful stuff going on and we don't even know our own lives are at stake so if not for the fact there were some boats to come rescue some of the survivors would anyone have survived
So if if you're in the ocean you can only swim for so long and a boat comes along to rescue you if you choose yes I want to be rescued climb into the Lifeboat you'll be saved if you reject you might not survive
That's not the definition of Total Depravity. Total Depravity distinguishes itself by positing that the lost don't even want to be saved and will never ever want to repent or get help unless they're metaphysically changed by God into a different sort of person (alive) before any sort of conversion even takes place.
So Provisionists believe, that God is good and he provides, both statements are true, however why don't you finish the sentence. Don't you think that the cross is a provision and not the finish work of Christ? The cross of Christ is a way God "provided" salvation but its up to you to accept that. Also I don't think that you guys have a good understanding of the attributes of God.
You didn't finish the sentence either my friend
Salvation took the Cross, His burial, AND most importantly, the Resurrection.
Romans 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
We hear preachers say this all the time:
"We preach the finished work of Christ on the Cross...!"
It "preaches good", and stirs up people's emotions in a Church service, but it's not accurate.
It took the Cross, but were God to have stopped there, then we'd never experience Him in the New Jerusalem in renewed Celestial bodies (oiketerion), but would lay in our graves for eternity.
He is a Living Savior, ready to give Life to whomever calls upon Him, in Faith.
Take care
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi You still not addressing the question. You say the cross is the finished work of Christ but is the work finished if is left up to "whomever" ? So do you think Faith is a gift? And who do you think is the "whomever" are?
A Calvinist can never have assurance. They have to persist in the faith always and continue doing the works -which really seems to be the only evidence that they are saved. They have to really have a hard time when going through some sort of dark night of the soul, turmoil, depression, doubt... They can't ever know if they are led by God to believe falsely and then not to believe since God controls all. Look at what happened with Steve Lawson, one of the most famous Calvinists of this day. Did God cause him to teach Calvinism very strictly all the while having some sort of emotional relationship with a 20 something year old woman for 5 years? I'd love to hear what they all think about his salvation, what he thinks now.He hasn't persisted in carrying on with all the rules at this point. I hope he's examining his false theology and vibes to a true faith. The only thing they count on is their election and strive to prove it by doing all the works. So the work comes out of a pressure to to do the works to prove their election and salvation by obedience to rules rather than working for Christ as an outpouring of love and devotion to God because of his grace and salvation.
@@joshlin9693 All Christians need to persist in the faith to be saved. If you aren't in the faith, you aren't saved. I take it you hold to the Free Grace person.
The Arminian god is too weak and the Calvinist god is a monster.
I think we need to go after the God of the bible and not some religions based on some to guys doctrine that's named after him.
must not be exegeting scriptures
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
A little off topic..... you guys are probably way too young to remember, but, y'all remind me of "Siskel & Ebert".
ua-cam.com/video/Sh3l8cfsUYs/v-deo.html
...... a little humor there 🙃..... yes, I know, very little.
This video not teaching the true God of the bible
Oh no…
@TheProvisionistPerspective oh yes, the teachings about election and predistination are hard teachings that are taught only to matured believers. This are not taught to unbelievers that are invited to believe Jesus (or evangelization process).
Provisionist ugghh... 😩
God only counts righteous that which He bestows.
Abraham's belief was credited as righteousness
Notice,
Belief came first
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qiAnd it wasn't a mere cognitive, passive belief.
Abraham had already trusted God and had demonstrated his faithfulness to Him, and that's the kind of believing (אָמַן - aman) that was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
In the New Testament, the Greek verb πιστεύω (pisteuó), the noun πίστις (pistis), typically translated along the lines of 'believe' and 'faith/belief', the adjective πιστός (πιστός), respectively, all carry that same idea of _trusting faithulness._
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi Abraham's belief was a result of the gift of faith God had given him.
You guys make yourselves equal to Christ and don't even see it. And for the sake of argument, my Calvinism is listed prominently on page 1 of my resume.
@@5johnsneed7 how so?
Yea, I'd like to hear this one too
John Snide, let's hear it bro!
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Do we save ourselves? YES.. by accepting Gods provision Jesus Christ, By accepting the Gospel of our Salvation.
Calvinist see using Faith as a work and meritorious. It’s a lie.
So when they say you’ve saved yourself.. ABSOLUTELY.. by choosing the Gospel.
Ephesians 1:13 NKJV
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
By Grace we are saved THROUGH Faith AND THAT IS not of YOURSELVES.. it is a gift of God..
Faith comes and is given when hearing and believing Gods Word infused by Gods Spirit.. Rom 10:17.
What happens when we hear Gods Word about Jesus…
John 16:8-9 NKJV
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [9] of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
The Holy Spirit convicts us.. if we accept we are in if not… we are out..
I am saved because I used my faith when getting convicted of my sins my Gods Holy Spirit..
New title “Is your church accidentally becoming more theologically correct?”
Thank you for telling on yourself.
Calvinist by and large do not try to convince people to become Calvinist. They only are trying to teach the truths of God's word and anticalvinist react. Only God can reveal the truth to His elect even if they believe arminianism. No need to try to convince someone to believe. That's God's work.
"Calvinists...do not try and convince..."
So, what are you doing? Seems you're trying to convince...
Wierd, huh?
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi Not at all.
@@benny.patsyevans122 No it doesn't seem like you're trying to convince?