@@nickyman5557 Cat was the only one among the Northern army who could have successfully talked their way across the Twins. Do you honestly think immature Robb, tactless Greatjon Umber, or the leech Roose Bolton could have either been trusted with that job, or succeeded at it? Cat was the only one present with both the authority and the ability to negotiate that one. As for her handling the Baratheon Bros, Robb needed *both* of them on his side. And she was right, they were bickering like a pair of children - and as a mother who was very used to dealing with squabbling children, she treated them like squabbling children. Cat was a great lady in her own right, wife of the late King's Hand, and mother of the King in the North. If anyone was in a position to tell them to knock it off and act like adults, someone of Cat's standing would have been second only to Olenna Tyrell. And Olenna would have been much less diplomatic about it.
@@nickyman5557 It's been a while since I've read the first three books, so I forget, but did Catelyn/Rob even learn or know that Ned was supporting Stannis? Playing both sides would be understandable (though still questionable) if Catelyn didn't know that, but if she did know, then it's honestly insane, incredibly stupid and incompetent on her part.
@@MugenHeadNinjaYou remember correctly. The man Ned asked to deliver the letter to Stannis was killed, and Cersei intercepted it. Stannis knew about the incest, but not that Ned supported his claim to the throne. Catelyn didn't know any of the contents of Ned's letter.
Regarding Renly’s claim, I think that sometimes people get into the habit of viewing the world through the lens of the POV characters and not, like, as a person. Renly is said to have the love and the loyalty of the small folk. Obviously, that didn’t do him any good which is why so many other characters are dismissive of him. But, like, most people in Westeros are small folk. If you went around and asked every lowborn person in Westeros who they think the best king would be, I think the text supports the idea that most of them would pick Renly. Renly’s claim is that most of the people in the realm want him to be king. I think one of the points of Renly as a character is to really hammer home how little power anyone without a last name is in Westeros. They support a leader they love who might actually have their best interests at heart and that whole movement is snuffed out instantly by a force beyond their control or understanding. I think Renly’s assassination is one of the more tragic moments in the whole series, with that context.
But they do kinda address that the smallfolk want Renly as king because he dresses nice and looks handsome at tourneys it doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll actually be a good ruler
Yeah I agree that it's his claim, but it doesn't mean he'd be better ruler. No that you were saying that, but I think Stannis and Renly would be good rulers in different ways, and Stannis overall had the better claim. Still, it's easier to understand why Renly would do that to his brother, when you realize everyone around him was telling him to take it.
I think Robb deep down just wanted revenge for his father and to save his sisters. His lords crowned him, so he needed to add seccesion to his cause lest he lose their support.
weirdly it shows his inexperience. Plenty of men in our history were offered crowns and were actually respected for denying them. Even if he denied it at first and accepted it later, it was an option available to him but Robb was too green to being a political leader to know it was one
@@SapphireSolstice67 Yes, but in the book Robb was only 14. That's not an age where wisdom is a common attribute. Quite the opposite, actually. Robb was mature for his years, but not that mature.
@@SapphireSolstice67 he honestly could have joined either Baratheon. His forces alongside either one would have assured a reasonable chance for victory. Stannis may have had few troops but he at least had a large fleet, the two together would have been a threat
Sansa's chapters in ACOK are really unappreciated, I can understand why so many people don''t like her chapters in AGOT as they are a bit slow. But ACOK is the book where she becomes a pretty interesting POV character.
Honestly each chapter of Sansa have very interesting and unforgettable scenes and quotes, her scenes with the Hound take most place in this book, her conversation with Cersei after her period starts and difference between ruling with love or fear is also in this book. She is also quite grief stricken and has episodes of "madness" and also numbing her feelings through the abuse she suffers from. Most people around her sees her as a fool and a child so she turns into a soundboard for especially cersei and the hound so she hears a lot.
An aspect of Renlys claim that is often overlooked, including here, is the aspect of competence. It is very clear that of the five kings Renlys is by far the most suitable contender of the Iron Throne. He is politicly savy, knows the game and is well liked by both the smallfolks and the Lords of the realm. His reign would be peacefull, stable and well-oiled. Joffrey is a monster and Stannis inability to compromise would plunge the realm into chaos when unavoidable revolts among the Lords would start when he would crack down on their tooeing of the lines. Aldo, imagine Celyse being resposoble to keep the social scene of the seven kingdoms running. Not to forgett the incoming "war" for Shireen's hand that with one spark could turn into a war without quatation marks. In the end Renly's claim is the weakest based upon blood. But knowing Martin, could that actually be the point.
I tend to agree, I mean Renly was basically what they want Aegon (Young Griff) to be one day. Being well liked and kind is actually pretty damn important for a monarch, and we consistently see that the best kings were generous and well natured (Jaehaerys, Aegon V, Daeron the Good)
I think the Battle of the Blackwater is the best written in the series as yet. I hope Tyrion gets to cause more carnage with his axe in good ol' dwarf fashion.
tbh I always felt like Renly was killed off a bit prematurely, his death was kinda random and the shadow baby was a sort of ex machina to get Stannis more support to challenge Joffrey
It was planned from the start by having Melisandre with him as soon as we meet him, and her magic being introduced in the literal first few pages of the book. Hardly an ex machina
@@logancarlile8895 idk it seems like the lord of light and the powers his priests have are there to facilitate whatever needs to happen in the plot like you go from long range shadow assassin to resurrection powers to healing/strengthening Victarions arm and prophecy as well. Lord of light magic in asoiaf is basically a get out of jail free card for otherwise fucked characters. There was also no tangible drawback to Stannis killing Renly and taking Storms End; him aging like 10 years has had seemingly no effect on his ability to lead or strategize for battles
I agree with you that Theon's chapters in ACOK are not that interesting but imo that is a problem with all the Ironborn-related stuff in ACOK. I really like Davos' chapters in ACOK though, I find him easily the most likeable character in the entire series. He just a good, solid broski that has Stannis' best interests in mind. And his arc about neglecting his sons but then drifting away from Stannis some in favor of his family is really compelling to me.
ACOK is my favorite book in the main series for these reasons: *best paced novel in the series *constant, building, tension all the way through to the end *Tyrion at his best, best Tyrion chapters by far *introduced Stannis, Davos, and Brienne, three of my favorites *some of Jon's best chapters, north of the wall had me on the edge of my seat *Catelyn's best chapters by far *Renly was a very fun character and tbh I wish he was king *Daenarys in Qarth was so fun and intriguing, house of the undying is still one of the biggest moments in terms of prophecy and theory crafting *Blackwater
Catelyn is the character from which we are introduced to so many places and so many people, like Winterfell, King's Landing, the Vale, Riverun and riverlands, Storm's end and many of its characters along with reachman. I just love her chapters.
I am fond of Renly as well, but he was too close to winning to be left alive. What would happen if Renly lived? He would have most likely leisurely made his way up the roseroad, knocked on the gates of king's landing, where littlefinger would have seen the writing on the wall, (the writing being 100 000 armed men outside the walls and the lannister forces getting kicked around the riverlands) and promptly tell the goldcloaks to throw open the gates. Renly sits down on the shiny chair, Joffrey either dies or gets imprisoned, 50/50, while Tommen and Myrcella are taken hostage. Renly wins, conflict dies down, the tragedy of the realm being so divided and exhausted while the apocalypse happens isn't a thing and the story doesn't have a biting theme. Renly was in the end a bit like Ned, would have been good if he lived, but had to die for the plot.
I genuinly dont think either of the Baratheon brothers would let the incest kids live. Even if they didnt love robert it give them legitimacy to kill the pretenders that stole his throne.
@@mysteryjunkie9808 Myrcella *might* have been allowed to become a septa, since she was so young. Maybe both the kids would have been given to the Faith if Renly was feeling merciful. If Stannis had won though, they'd both have been toast.
I actually started with reading ASOIAF with A Clash of Kings. It is actually doable, you do not miss anything from book one, and can figure out everything important from it. I later read book 1 for the first time, and I honestly do not know whether I would have been sucked into the series as fast and deeply if I had started with it instead of book 2.
ACOK was truly a Rollercoaster that was building speed all the way to the finish. It's the one book in the series that felt like it was constantly gaining speed
I think the thing I loved the most about Clash last time I read through it was trying to think about what it would be like to read it when it came out and then have to wait 2 years for A Storm of Swords to follow up on everything it did. I was first introduced to this series through the show and well into its run at that, so both my first watch and my first read saw me blazing through the story, especially at this part as you always get this urge with part 2 to rush into part 3 to get some closure, which I did both reading and watching. On a reread, there's some really interesting cliffhangers in this one that I just never thought as being such because Storm almost feels like an obligation to read after you finish Clash. The first thing that comes to mind is the fakeout deaths in Catelyn, Theon and Davos's final chapters and how readers must have just thought Jaime, Theon and Davos were dead until Storm confirmed otherwise, but there's also some really foreboding endings for other characters that had to have been killer to have to wait on. Arya leaving Harrenhal because of how unsafe she feels, despite being surrounded by Northmen, is so perfectly chilling and Roose going hunting for wolves at the end of this book is a really unsettling note to leave him on. Jon also has a really great ending as he seems to go off script at the end, and going into ASOS you really have no idea what the wildlings are gonna do with him or what's become of the rest of his brothers back with Mormont and Sam. Sansa and Tyrion have a bit less ambiguity to them as you can safely predict where they're going to be for the foreseeable future, but the dangling thread of Dontos is still there to entice you, and for Tyrion, while GRRM wasn't so bold as to leave any possibility of him dying, now that he's stripped of his status as Hand of the King, you have to wonder if he's just going to go on another journey like he did in AGOT. And then Bran, man, the baby bird leaving the nest with his wings clipped is such an underrated way to close this book. His fakeout death didn't end up bridging the gap of books 2 and 3, but the way it's felt in Catelyn's and even Tyrion's chapters after the fact is such a cool concept, and I think really paved the way for Martin to mask other twists through word-of-mouth misinformation, which leads to a ton of interesting developments in the books to come. You get this sense that the characters never truly know what's going on in the world outside of their personal bubble, and that's such a great way Martin makes you feel the world getting bigger. By the way, loved the spotlight on the Cressen prologue, it's my favorite prologue too, and I think it's a microcosm of what makes Clash so special. In that chapter you're suddenly plopped into a brand new location without a single familiar character and a lot of new ones who are going to be very important very soon, and this chapter takes on the challenge of introducing you to all of them while delivering a handful of great character moments for them and endearing you to its narrator despite the fact that he will inevitably die at the end of this chapter. Clash practically doubles the scope of this series, and this prologue is an appropriately big first step towards that result, shouldering the burden of such a broad world while still maintaining the heart and soul that made the story worth telling. Overall, I still think I have Clash as my 4th favorite in the series. Feast probably gonna my #1 pick forever for how much that book means to me personally, and while there are parts of Clash I prefer to AGOT and ASOS, I can never convince myself those two books aren't better. It's still better than Dance in my opinion, which even as I come to appreciate it more is still a bit too messy not to be the weakest of the 5, but this book being 4th out of 5 is more of a testament to how great this series is than a weakness of this book individually.
really good analysis - I can’t wait to get to Clash in my reread. (just started haha) I hadn’t even considered the cliffhangers! they really are excellent and yeah, twists delivered by word of mouth is so cool. Jon’s Clash chapters are some of my favorites from him, and I said in another comment how much I love Sansa in this book.
@@carmina-solis Sansa is the best! Enjoy the reread, and if you've ever read Dunk and Egg keep an eye out for Targ history references, because you can see GRRM changing the focus of his lore to better suit later plotlines he's setting up. One of the coolest things about his gardener style is being able to see all the seeds that didn't grow into anything right alongside all the stuff you know will be really important later.
It’s wild to put these things into perspective, and I’ve only learned recently that Clash has reached it’s 25th birthday. I started reading ASOIAF 2 years ago, and Clash is as old as I am! In fact, I’m one month older! Here’s hoping Winds will release in a very near future, and great video as always!
Happy birthday to you! Now I'm feeling my age more than ever... I was finishing my first go through uni when Clash came out, and read it a few years later at the urging of an old friend who's a horror and fantasy writer herself, when she shoved it and Game of Thrones into my hands with orders to "read and learn". I'm so glad I listened to her!
The start of Clash remains imo the best opening to any of the books. Everyone seeing the red comit, my favorite prolog, Mel being introduced and the war officially starting. As well as magic and profecy really starting to come into the world. It really does feel like the calm before the coming storm that is the next 2/3rds of clash and especially A Storm of Swords.
There are some rough parts of clash but the fact that the opening chapter and the last chapter are both so unbelievably good and possibly some of the best opening and endings to a book ever is something that makes it special
I'd never thought about each of them representing some ideal virtue of a king. If I had to guess: Robb - justice, Renly - popular support, Joffrey - strength or something, Stannis - conviction, Balon - opportunism
Joffery represents the conservatism/ignorance of the cityfolk. Remember no one really knows Joffery is a bastard or even cares that much. People just want to live their lives and don't want to be in a war.
ACOK is so strange to me cause when I first read it I thought there's no way I'll ever read a book this good again. I was convinced it would be my all-time favorite book forever. then of course I read ASOS and AFFC and somehow they were even better, but even so, Clash being the first that I felt that way for will always give it a special place in my heart
That House of the Undying was so great I re-read it 3 times on my 1st read through. Also when Ramsey revealed himself to Theon and burned Winterfell... goosebumps every time
I really love ACOK. "There was no safe anchorage on Pyke..." George handled the Battle of Blackwater with 3 POV's with a masterful stroke. I Wonder if The battle of fire is more complex, and that he may be struggling with Tyrion, Barristan, Vicatrion all arriving on scene.. Great video Q.
I think Clash and Feast are the two best written stories overall. As self contained stories they tell the best ones; both of these books have a very easy theme to follow AGOT is solid of course, but it is not as eventful ASOS is basically just cool thing after cool thing, so people don't notice that it is basically just payoff for the first two novels ADAD is the most sloppy and jumbled by far
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy during my re-read last winter, I tried out the “boiled leather” combined reading order of Feast and Dance. I highly recommend it if you’re ever planning on doing a re-read. I feel like it makes Dance much more enjoyable and easy to get through for people that aren’t the biggest fans of it.
@swaggerdagger5168 I've definitely heard of it yeah! If I ever re-read them I will do it that way. But yeah, it's interesting how Feast came out of the cut as a cohesive story, and Dance was just what was left
Funny, I just picked it up. Was on another series I love the editorial voice Martin employs twice in this book. "...I am not without mercy." said he who was notoriously without mercy.
I never understood Balon Greyjoy. Why attack the broke ass North when Lannisport was right there for the taking? Not only would the Ironborn get Lannister gold, they could leverage the pillaging as aiding Robb or Stannis.
@fazediamond5671 if only the kings had a way to communicate with one another. Robb had Tywin on the back foot. Stannis had the Navy and a castle that was a short distance from King’s Landing. He could attack at anytime. And Renly was young, so he could have waited out Stannis. He wasn’t going to have anymore kids with Lady Selyse and Shireen was sickly. Renly probably would have been king in less than ten years.
@fazediamond5671I'd say it's more to do with Balon's vendeta against Ned for embarrassing him during his rebelion, and killing his sons than anything else. Because, strategically, it's a FAR safer bet to raid Lannisport while Tywin is distracted by Robb, than thinking he could've held down the north.
That's mostly because Balon is just very stupid. He hates Ned for humiliating him and then Robb again for "offering" him a crown, and being Ned's son who ruined his last son. I think you're supposed to realize it's a bad plan, Asha says as much later in the books. But it's created out of a long line of petty grudges and people too stupid to question what he says (mostly because they like it)
I think that it's the subtleties that stand out the most. Both Jon and Bran realize that they are wargs. Bran comes to Jon in a wolf dream and tells him to open his third eye, potentially naming him a greenseer. Theon has the Feast for Crows vision in his dream after killing the two children, foreseeing Robb's death. I read Clash the first time when it first came out. I was about 19 at the time and did not appreciate it then as I do now. Even to this day, it is one of the least favored in the series, for much the same reason that you initially did not like Dance, but reading it now, the nuances that are included make it really stand out. The political dynamics really take center stage. It's not just Tyrion playing. Every POV is doing it, and Sansa is the only one that is lagging behind because her Ser Dontos Florian arc has filled her with enough hope that she believes that she can get out of King's Landing without any more trauma. Well, Theon as well, feeling slighted mostly by Asha and believing that he can take Winterfell to prove his prowess to his father, and realizing pretty quick that he bit off more than he can chew. Bran learned what it meant to put duty first, something that Jon is struggling with throughout, but Jon learns some valuable lessons on being a team player with Qhorin Halfhand, but also seeing what it's like to be respected and taken seriously as a ranger and brother of the Night's Watch. Catelyn's chapter in the dungeon has to be my favorite chapter though. This is when Jaime really strips his heart bare for the first time and we get a glimpse of who the real man is underneath... that and the end when he's trying to remember Jon's name and Catelyn calls for Brienne and he says, "No, that's not it." Arya really starts to understand that she does have agency. Obviously she struggles with that. Out of them all, even though it's a toss-up with Sansa, I would say that her arc in this book is the most traumatic, and it's not until Harrenhal that she's able to do something. Danaerys goes from the Red Waste destroying her little group to arriving in Qarth. Out of every POV, I would have to say that she's better at the Game of Thrones than Tyrion, simply because she is more manipulative. She uses her own "handicaps" against others. Tyrion advises Jon to do this in Game, but then always has Bronn and others to instill fear into others because he has gold. All in all, Martin took advantage of the opportunity afforded by the emergence of the conflict begun by Robert's death to really play with his characters and it translates really well on paper. If Storm is the greatest fantasy novel ever written, then Clash is the greatest prelude to what that would really look like. Strip it down, much like what Game is, and Game isn't a stand alone. Game showed how a fantasy could look like. I sat on a Barnes & Noble floor, reading Game until Jaime pushed Bran. It was late '96, or early 97. Nothing like that had ever happened before. There was a realism that Martin had captured that had never been attempted before, even though he was emulating Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, Game showed that "fantasy" could be serious, and cross the line. He didn't need "magic" to prove it. But with Clash, he showed how that could look once you took magic past the point of dreams, visions and a funeral pyre and put everything together. Wheel of Time was the bar that had been set up to the point when Game came out. He loved Wheel of Time, among other epics. He didn't take WoT and throw it out. He took the bar, and no one has been able to find it since then. These first books weren't even promoted. He never believed that they would do good. That's why I passed up Game for several months. Even the way that he wrote 3rd person was different. No one did a limited view point in 3rd person. You just wrote 1st person. No one ever took the classic hero out and replaced it with an ensemble cast of heroes and villains. No one wrote "grey" characters. It's not different to you because you didn't go through the literal chronology of how these books have actually shaped literature as a whole. I've been a bookworm for my whole life, and I couldn't even appreciate what I was seeing as it happened. Clash is the most underrated of all the books solely on account of the Red Wedding and how none of us saw it coming. I didn't care about Jon until after Robb's death. To me, Ned was the hero of the story, so Robb was supposed to win. Then suddenly Jon became Lord Commander when he clearly wasn't ready for it, and I knew something was up. We didn't have UA-cam, or reddit. Everyone was in the dark. We caught some foreshadowing here and there, but we didn't have World or anything. It's in Clash when we really get to see, even before there's much evidence, that many of these characters are Ta'varen, as Robert Jordan called them. Most of them are reincarnations of earlier heroes and villains of legend.
That Maester Cressen quote was amazing, in a few lines, George gave us great characterization without boring us. This is why this is my favorite series. George is simply unmatched when it comes to characters.
Started a reread of Asoiaf recently, and coincidentally I started Clash just last night. I gotta say, reading the series after having been exposed to all the theories within the Fandom makes for a very different reading experience.
I feel like a good chunk of the hype surrounding Winds is in how we get conclusions and battles and wrapping up of many plots that have been growing since ASOS. However, conclusions seem to be very difficult for GURM, and certain things like Meereen and Kings Landing need to be resolved before Faegon tries to take the throne.
I actually read this book last as I started with book 3 and read forwards then looped back to 1 (completely wrong I know) and I must admit it remains one of my favorites. I think that Storm of Swords remains the best book in my opinion but Clash really succeeded in portraying the buildup to massive conflicts like the Blackwater, actually taking time to show the logistics and then the true reality of battle. Plus it introduced my favorite character in the one true king! 🦌🔥
Good stuff man, Catelyn is so good in this book and her time at Renly’s camp is one of my favourites in the series (if you couldn’t tell lol). Also Aryas last chapter escaping Harrenhal, killing the guard at the gate always gets me as well.
Catelyn III might be the best chapter in the series. The clashing of storylines and amazing dialogue was just something else. Seeing the war of egos between the brothers combined with Catelyn's quote about how Robb is the only man defending Westeros shows how uncoordinated these three factions who all equally hate The Lannisters are.
Robb: Hey Balon help me in my war and you can get independence and sack the richest cities in westeros. Balon: Nah imma pillage some fishing villages instead
The Davos chapter featuring the parley at Storm's End is one of my favourites in the entire series - definitely my favourite of Davos. Cortnay Penrose was such a badass. Goodness knows why his character wasn't featured in season 2. The prologue with Cressen is easily the best one we've gotten so far, followed by A Storm of Swords'. I was livid with D&D for watering down his character on screen, stripping his death of its poignance.
The final chapters for Theon and Tyrion had me at the edge of my seat, definitely my favorite in the series so far, tho I'm really excited to start with Storm of Sword
Absolutely agree with mostly everything you’ve said! I love Cat in this book, and honestly i love her for most of the series. But indeed her chapters with Renly are fantastic. I’m readying the book rn again and god that’s such a fun and interesting pov, her and these bickering idiots. love it
Same! And I love all her interaction with Brienne, too. The way GRRm wrote two wonderfully different female characters playing off each other with respect and even a sort of affection is a refreshing change, and made both characters feel so much more real and human. And yeah, I wanted to smack Stannis and Renly's heads together too!
The significance of Balon I think is one part as you said of the troubles for Robb but also the weakness of The Iron Throne under the new Baratheon order. First the Iron Throne no longer has dragons and then no longer has the conqueror's dynasty and then no longer has legitimate kings at that. The kingdom is set to balkanize and those islands are the first to leave because easiest brick to fall.
I sometimes hear from people that A Clash Of Kings is the weakest in the series. Either that or Feast. I love it. It introduced many characters or fleshed out others alot more which I enjoy reading about. Mainly Stannis, Davos, and Renly. It goes back and forth between my favorite and second favorite
Objectively, idk how anyone could say it's the weakest. It is the best paced book in my opinion, it truly felt like there was a sense of urgency as Stannis, Renly, and Rob were closing in on the Lannisters and victory seemed inevitable. I think AGOT is easily the weakest, and ADAD is kinda messy and ambling with certain POVs. I'd put Clash just under Storm at #2 for me
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Storm is definitely the best, but AGOT is certainly not the weakest book. Feast for crows is easily the weakest book. Dance is a close second to Storm.
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy The first half of the book suffers from some glacial pacing. I think the story lacks a focal point the way AGOT did with Ned, both narratively and geographically. I don't think the Stannis/Renly conflict was the most compelling, even though I appreciated the Davos chapters. I found some of the Arya stuff boring and unpleasant. I simply think AGOT holds up the best as a standalone book, but also sets up the rest of the series perfectly. Having said all this, the second half of Clash is a 10/10, in my opinion. It's just that the first half is like a 7/10.
Quinn, I loved the video but I'm disappointed you didn't talk about any of the Stark kids. Arya's chapters are arguably the best she's ever had in the books, Bran's chapters dealing with the Northern Rebellion (no Ramsay mentioned) and the Ironborn. Sansa has some good stuff in this book as well and she meshed nicely with Tyrion's chapters.
Yes!!! I love Arya in ASOS too but she really shines here, as does Sansa! I’ve loved Sansa since day one (my friend who introduced me also loves Sansa) but this is the book where she really comes into her own. Her conversation with Cersei in Maegor’s Stronghold is excellent. And I love Jon’s story here too!! Again, I think I prefer ASOS Jon overall but his story gets going here.
My one big criticism of Clash is that in the Stannis & Renly storylines, their glacial pace to reach King's Landing feels really contrived to line up with the end of the book. There's a lot of "Oh and then this thing happened which delayed them" moments. Other than that, 10/10 book.
Wow, you're still in high school and posting such high-quality content. Honestly, that's inspiring and impressive. Nice job, dude! King Stannis will win in 'The Winds of Winter.
5:42 Balon is not just opportunistic. If he were, he would have allied with Robb and both of them would be Kings at the end of the story. Instead Balon is (like Stannis actually) massively motivated by pride. He has very clear ideas of what his status should be, and how things ought to be done and his entire conduct of politics is determined by that. Balon doesn‘t just want to be King, he wants everything done HIS way and refuses to bend to anyone or cooperate with others. If Balon allied with the North or even just attacked the Lannisters, Robb would win the War and end up way more powerful than Balon. So instead, he attacks the North in (utterly vain) hopes of capturing that, thinking he can then take on the Iron Throne from a position of strength. And he probably wants to get back at the Starks over taking Theon hostage. In any case, this is completely delusional but Balon is so indoctrinated about the way things should be done that he thinks that will actually work.
Clash is my personal favorite book in the main series and my second favorite book set in the world of asoiaf, with my favorite book being fire and blood
High five! I’m also younger than A Clash of Kings! I’m also younger than Storm. Holy crap I just realized that I’m younger than a majority of the main series. I’m going to… I’m gonna go stare at a wall.
2:58 you've nailed the biggest plot hole in game of thrones on the head Renly wanted to be king because otherwise Stannis would've immediately won the war
@fazediamond5671Thank you for mentioning this. I think what Stannis supporters often miss is that victory is far less guaranteed if Renly gives up the crown during the negotiations than vice versa. So let's say he does relinquish the crown, and gives his support behind Stannis. That would mean breaking all the promises he made to all the lords who had been backing him to that point, leaving them open for negotiations with the Lannisters. Because what can Stannis really offer them for their support? He's already married, so Margery loses her spot as queen. Renly is named hand if I remember right, so that's off the table. He's basically guaranteed to lose the support of the Tyrells and their bannermen, which was indispensable during the battle of the black water. Now, say Stannis supports Renly. What does he have to lose? He wasn't very popular in the first place. His support was entirely based on good will from his bannermen, and Rhllor fanatics, all of whom aren't likely to shift allegiences just because Stannis supported his brother. I suppose Melisandre would be pissed... But Stannis was foolish to trust her in the first place. Trusting her very nearly led to him burning an innocent child alive and his demise on the Blackwater. If anything, Stannis would only stengthen Renly's already popular movement. But he was too focused on his own self-righteousness and Mel's visions to see what was truely important.
I'm 23 years old and I just know started reading the books just got done with Clash of Kings and just wow can wait until the next boom even tho I watched the sieres growing up
Definitely the book in the series that I like least. That being said, it does have some strong stuff too. Tyrion's chapters are great and the Blackwater is also absolutely fantastic. As for your final statement that this is the first real "A Song of Ice & Fire" novel, I half agree. I think you're completely right that this is the first time we get a more sprawling book, whereas "A Game of Thrones" was this very tightly ploted and more fast-paced, actually somewhat plot-driven story. Clash definitely gets away from that a bit. But I actually think it still isn't nearly as expansive as Storm, Feast or Dance. I see Clash more as a transitionary book. Where it still holds on to some of the tighter plotting of Thrones, but at the same time it also is beginning to become more expansive like the books that come after it. But I think that, for me, that's part of what makes it weaker. "A Game of Thrones" has the strong plotting, even if it lacks the expansiveness of the other books. The other books have an expansiveness that I love. This has a bit of both, but doesn't go all in on either. And so for me all of the other ones are preferable. I've also never been a huge fan of Catelyn's chapters, and I tend to love Daenerys' chapters, so that probably is also one of the reasons I didn't like this book as much. Don't get me wrong, it's a good book. And it has some very strong stuff as well. But it's still the one I like least.
i actually really like the ironborn plot, i’m such a fan of pirates and the Drowned God as a concept that any more time i get with House Greyjoy the better. that, and Theon is genuinely one of my favorite characters in the series
You immediately contradicted yourself when talking about Renly. His entire point is that who had a claim or not didn’t matter when Robert took the throne, but you said he did have a claim because everyone else was “dispossessed or deposed”. Yeah…. Because Robert dispossessed and deposed them through conquest, not because of his claim. Viserys was the rightful king even after Robert deposed Aerys and killed Rhaegar, robert took the throne anyway. Renly’s argument is that it doesn’t matter if Stannis has a better claim, because Renly can actually conquer and take the throne unlike Stannis That’s not say he was right or had a claim, but you’re implying Robert did have a legitimate claim. He didn’t, Viserys would have to be dead for the throne to legitimately pass to him
Off topic, but I noticed it while listening to ACoK on audiobook earlier this week: The parallels between Lyanna/Rhaegar and Ygritte/Jon. When Jon is supposed to execute Ygritte, he asks himself if he is truly his father's son. Yes. I'm gonna let this pretty northern girl running around with weapons go, end up sleeping with her, and be troubled by it for the rest of my life. He is definitely his father's son, just not the son of the man he thinks is his father.
I think Bran and Arya both had great chapters in Clash, and this was before they became wearisome in ASOS and especially in Dance. Arya had this chaotic, brutal, terrifying experience through war that really set up the character growth later on Brans chapters had this great ominous feeling...impending darkness and danger, very much Martin showing his horror muscles. You just had this feeling that things for Bran were going to get worse fast
do you think any aspects of the storylines involving the North wanting to go to war with the lannisters or the greyjoy rebellions maybe inspired by the movie braveheart or the scottish fight for independence. Robb starks and ned stark kinda give me william wallace vibes and both were betrayed and died in ways that they didn't deserve like william wallace. And the reason the greyjoy rebellion gave me braveheart vibes is just that ironborn culture kinda just feels very similar to not only viking culture but also celtic culture. And the iron born wanting to be independent from the other kingdoms again and baelon wanting to king just reminds me of the Scottish fight for independence.
I'll admit to not liking Stannis, even before the show. And after thinking about it, it's probably for the same reason a lot of characters in the series don't like him. Saying it's his "harsh sense of justice" is one way of putting it, but I'd put it another way - he doesn't play the game. Stannis is Just and Lawful, but as noted by Donal Noye, he'll "break before he bends." And that's his big flaw. Yes, he has the most legitimate claim to the throne (let's just ignore the hypocrisy of this as his big claim, given Stannis's part in the rebellion), but that's really all he has. And unfortunately, Stannis seems to be of the opinion that that's all he needs, and that everyone should just flock to his banner by default, without him offering them anything in return. Yes, his refusal to engage in the politicking of the realm is reasonable (probably even wise), but by laying claim to the throne, he _has_ to play the game. Refusing to do so while fighting this war is like playing poker and deciding to never bluff.
Clash is definitely underrated I'd say. I think storm is still best in my opinion, but there are a lot of things that storm pays off that clash set up. I think people largely dismiss clash because of that, feast too in some respect. If not for a few relatively weak Dany chapters I think clash could very well be the best technically written book in the series.
where do you go to law school? i am a huge fan and am about to start studying for the LSAT, In wonder if there are lots of ASOIAF fans who are in the field it feels like they align somehow for me!
From what I remember of the battle of black water chapter with davos- part of it felt like a snooze fest by naming all the ships and all the pre battle stuff but that’s just my opinion
@@Darius-_her she chooses to help the unsullied and slaves instead of just going to Illyrio its her finally coming into her own and paving the way, she comes so far from a meek little girl to Khalisi...
@@Darius-_ she wins Daryo, the second son's etc to join her through her own fearlessness and wit but also trusts her people and advisors when needed, like a good queen.
@@Darius-_All that plus Danny just has such a fun personality and all her chapters have incredible stand out moments and writing...easily the most iconic got character 😊
Renly’s claim is perfectly fine. During the Feudal era, succession by the eldest son was very much guidelines rather than actual rules. Just ask Robert Curthose. The question of who should be King was very much a practical question, especially for the nobility who had to be his vassals. To this end, the Storm- and Reachlords are not wrong to back Renly. He is far more qualified than his brother, being the only one of Steffon‘s sons to show a lick of political sense. Better yet he‘s fundamentally practical. People love Stannis for some reason, but I cannot stress enough what a bad sign it is for someone to be so bitter about brother giving him the *wrong castle* that he barely talks to him after 15 years. I know people who are like that and none of them are fit to wield power over anyone. This man literally despises his closest family because they are not how he wants them to be. Not only are these terrible character traits, this obsessing over how he thinks things should go shows a complete inability to think practically. A competent statesman needs to take people and situations as they are, then figure out what he wants and what problems need to be solved, all while keeping a sense of perspective about what‘s actually important. All things Stannis is unable to do, unlike Renly (and incidentally Robert!), but also unlike Eddard, Jon Arryn or pretty much any competent leader. Same with his obsessive insistence that *he* should be King because that‘s his legal, god-given privilege. Sure, Stannis also thinks he‘d be a better King than Renly (he wouldn‘t) or anyone else (because he still blames Renly for being a child 15 years ago when Renly was a child), but his priority is clearly the fact that he‘s entitled to it. What Stannis is, is a Class A bootlicker. He spent 15 years faithfully obeying Robert, not because he‘s his brother or anything, but because Robert is the head of the family and Stannis is resolved to obey him no matter what, even if he actually hates Robert which he does. And now that Robert is dead, without trueborn sons so now it‘s Stannis‘ turn to get his boot licked, even if people hate him. He did it for 15 years, so now they should, too. Stannis calls all this duty, but his priorities make it very clear that for the most part it‘s about wanting it because he‘s entitled to it. If he were actually as concerned with the good of the realm as he claims, he might have considered the damage that he‘s doing to the Realm by trying to become King at any cost. Which incidentally is one of the main points George R R Martin is trying to make: no matter how just you think your cause is, war is not just. But this is one point that seems to be perpetually lost on Stannis-stans.
THANK YOU! All this is why I'm ride or die for Renly. No other would-be king in Westeros could rally people behind a single just cause quite like the youngest Baratheon. Even Robb was arguably coasting on the good will the northmen had for his father, and we saw how quickly that was squandered in book 3. And as much respect I have for Stannis' conviction, his commitment to duty, he effectively threw in the towel when he killed his brother. Between Renly's charisma, his support from the Tyrells, and Stannis' fortitude, together they would have flattened the Lannisters, if only Stannis could stop listening to Melisandre, swallow his pride, and serve his brother as Hand. And with the Lannisters deposed, Joffrey's head would've likely been sufficient in appeasing Winterfell, even if it meant Robb giving up his crown. Then, with Winterfell at full strength, the ironborn would've been even more of a nonpressence then they already were. And with the seven kingdoms effectively united, Westeros would've been in the best form to fend off Daenarys, or Faegon from the east, or eventually the threat of the white walkers from the north. Granted, all that probably would'nt have gone down that cleanly, but you get the idea. The fact that he was a gay icon, and the closest Westeros ever got to a feminist is just the cherry on top. Idk, I haven't finished the current books yet (I'm in the middle of AFFC), and when I read Brien chapters, and see the amount of reverence she has for Renly, I realize his death impacted me almost as much as Ned's, even if he was a pretty minor player in the grand scope of things.
As to your critique of Balon...he's a "PIRATE"! The leader of a "CULTURE OF PIRATES"!!! So, the fact that he acts opportunistically doesn't seem like some failure of validation or scope...he's a side effect of the Chaos. That doesn't make him or his story less pertinent to the story. FWIW.
In my (very) personal opinion, a great book has to fill two criteria at the end - to leave me satisfied and to make me want to see more. "Clash" really only did latter for me. I agree with assessment that it is probably the most important book in the series plotwise, but when I finished it, I wasn't completely satisfied. It's really difficult to explain, but it felt like there were some important pieces missing. For example, let's talk about Davos and Stannis. In "Clash", those two characters weren't really interesting to me. Davos was a bit boring and I wasn't really looking towards his chapters, while I saw Stannis as nothing more than rightful jerk. It wasn't until "Storm" that I got onboard with this storyline. Renly was also disappointing to me. In first book, he seemed like a cool, brave guy. Here, however, he was just a huge "all show, no talk" twat. He irritated me to that point that I was genuinely happy when he got killed. Theon's story was another one that was difficult to get into due to how much of a jerk he was. Also, the fact that he spends most of the book sitting in Winterfell doesn't help. Much like Davos and Stannis, he's a character that got more interesting later on. I was never really a big fan of Dany's storyline and I have to say that "Clash" is her absolute lowest. Outside of that one chapter in House of Undying, I couldn't care less about her story and Qarth and kept wondering is all this really that important. I also wish there was more of Jon in the book (because he's my favorite character in the series) but his story is fine. On the bright side, other characters were all great. Tyrion and Catelyn were just as good as they were in the first book, Arya somehow was even more interesting than she already was, I finally managed to get onboard with Sansa's story (which was the least interesting part of "Game" for me) and even Bran's chapters were entertaining. Overall, I think that it's the third best book in the series after "Storm" and "Game".
Balon's opportunism is absolutely stupid and exists only for plot convenience. Theon's plan to assault the Westerlands and seize Lannisport (maybe with a really cool Ironborn grappling hook based assault on Casterly Rock) is a way better idea than invading the North. Theon goes to his father suggesting that they sack and loot Lannisport, a city full of gold, and Balon mocks him for the idea before invading a frozen wasteland. Balon is being a crony to the Lannisters while he thinks he's fighting for himself. There is nothing worth taking in the North for the Ironmen and its sheer size would make it impossible to hold even if the Ironmen won.
Jon Snow - and his stubborn northern honor - is so irritating. He heard the plot against Jeor Mormont's life, and just like his stupid 'father' Ned decided to keep his mouth shut. He killed the Lord Commander just as much as Chet and the others. Can't stand the pig headed Starks.
I just noticed that Catelyn scolded Stannis and Renly as if she was their mother even though The Mannis might be older than her.
Aren't Ned and Cat the same age whilst Stannis is 34 here?
@@epsilon9739 In the wiki it says that Stannis was born in 264 AC while Catelyn was born between 264 and 265 AC. Ned was born in 263 AC.
@@nickyman5557 Cat was the only one among the Northern army who could have successfully talked their way across the Twins. Do you honestly think immature Robb, tactless Greatjon Umber, or the leech Roose Bolton could have either been trusted with that job, or succeeded at it? Cat was the only one present with both the authority and the ability to negotiate that one.
As for her handling the Baratheon Bros, Robb needed *both* of them on his side. And she was right, they were bickering like a pair of children - and as a mother who was very used to dealing with squabbling children, she treated them like squabbling children. Cat was a great lady in her own right, wife of the late King's Hand, and mother of the King in the North. If anyone was in a position to tell them to knock it off and act like adults, someone of Cat's standing would have been second only to Olenna Tyrell. And Olenna would have been much less diplomatic about it.
@@nickyman5557 It's been a while since I've read the first three books, so I forget, but did Catelyn/Rob even learn or know that Ned was supporting Stannis? Playing both sides would be understandable (though still questionable) if Catelyn didn't know that, but if she did know, then it's honestly insane, incredibly stupid and incompetent on her part.
@@MugenHeadNinjaYou remember correctly. The man Ned asked to deliver the letter to Stannis was killed, and Cersei intercepted it. Stannis knew about the incest, but not that Ned supported his claim to the throne. Catelyn didn't know any of the contents of Ned's letter.
The Battle of Black Water has one of my favourite descriptions in ASoIaF: "Men screaming like horses; horses screaming like men."
Regarding Renly’s claim, I think that sometimes people get into the habit of viewing the world through the lens of the POV characters and not, like, as a person.
Renly is said to have the love and the loyalty of the small folk. Obviously, that didn’t do him any good which is why so many other characters are dismissive of him. But, like, most people in Westeros are small folk. If you went around and asked every lowborn person in Westeros who they think the best king would be, I think the text supports the idea that most of them would pick Renly. Renly’s claim is that most of the people in the realm want him to be king. I think one of the points of Renly as a character is to really hammer home how little power anyone without a last name is in Westeros. They support a leader they love who might actually have their best interests at heart and that whole movement is snuffed out instantly by a force beyond their control or understanding. I think Renly’s assassination is one of the more tragic moments in the whole series, with that context.
But they do kinda address that the smallfolk want Renly as king because he dresses nice and looks handsome at tourneys it doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll actually be a good ruler
Yeah I agree that it's his claim, but it doesn't mean he'd be better ruler. No that you were saying that, but I think Stannis and Renly would be good rulers in different ways, and Stannis overall had the better claim. Still, it's easier to understand why Renly would do that to his brother, when you realize everyone around him was telling him to take it.
I think Robb deep down just wanted revenge for his father and to save his sisters. His lords crowned him, so he needed to add seccesion to his cause lest he lose their support.
weirdly it shows his inexperience. Plenty of men in our history were offered crowns and were actually respected for denying them. Even if he denied it at first and accepted it later, it was an option available to him but Robb was too green to being a political leader to know it was one
@@Ryanfinder226 Absolutely. And I think that's a part of what makes his story such a tragedy.
It seems it would have been wisest to either refuse the crown and join Renly or to stay in the north and not seek justice nor his family.
@@SapphireSolstice67 Yes, but in the book Robb was only 14. That's not an age where wisdom is a common attribute. Quite the opposite, actually. Robb was mature for his years, but not that mature.
@@SapphireSolstice67 he honestly could have joined either Baratheon. His forces alongside either one would have assured a reasonable chance for victory. Stannis may have had few troops but he at least had a large fleet, the two together would have been a threat
Sansa's chapters in ACOK are really unappreciated, I can understand why so many people don''t like her chapters in AGOT as they are a bit slow. But ACOK is the book where she becomes a pretty interesting POV character.
ACOK is far more exciting than GOT for almost every character, it's the one book where I think I loved everyone's chapters
Honestly each chapter of Sansa have very interesting and unforgettable scenes and quotes, her scenes with the Hound take most place in this book, her conversation with Cersei after her period starts and difference between ruling with love or fear is also in this book. She is also quite grief stricken and has episodes of "madness" and also numbing her feelings through the abuse she suffers from. Most people around her sees her as a fool and a child so she turns into a soundboard for especially cersei and the hound so she hears a lot.
An aspect of Renlys claim that is often overlooked, including here, is the aspect of competence. It is very clear that of the five kings Renlys is by far the most suitable contender of the Iron Throne. He is politicly savy, knows the game and is well liked by both the smallfolks and the Lords of the realm. His reign would be peacefull, stable and well-oiled.
Joffrey is a monster and Stannis inability to compromise would plunge the realm into chaos when unavoidable revolts among the Lords would start when he would crack down on their tooeing of the lines. Aldo, imagine Celyse being resposoble to keep the social scene of the seven kingdoms running. Not to forgett the incoming "war" for Shireen's hand that with one spark could turn into a war without quatation marks.
In the end Renly's claim is the weakest based upon blood. But knowing Martin, could that actually be the point.
I tend to agree, I mean Renly was basically what they want Aegon (Young Griff) to be one day. Being well liked and kind is actually pretty damn important for a monarch, and we consistently see that the best kings were generous and well natured (Jaehaerys, Aegon V, Daeron the Good)
Renly’s too much of a Stringer Bell to be a good King
I think the Battle of the Blackwater is the best written in the series as yet. I hope Tyrion gets to cause more carnage with his axe in good ol' dwarf fashion.
Fr
tbh I always felt like Renly was killed off a bit prematurely, his death was kinda random and the shadow baby was a sort of ex machina to get Stannis more support to challenge Joffrey
Nah, the shadows come to dance.
It was planned from the start by having Melisandre with him as soon as we meet him, and her magic being introduced in the literal first few pages of the book. Hardly an ex machina
@@logancarlile8895 idk it seems like the lord of light and the powers his priests have are there to facilitate whatever needs to happen in the plot like you go from long range shadow assassin to resurrection powers to healing/strengthening Victarions arm and prophecy as well. Lord of light magic in asoiaf is basically a get out of jail free card for otherwise fucked characters. There was also no tangible drawback to Stannis killing Renly and taking Storms End; him aging like 10 years has had seemingly no effect on his ability to lead or strategize for battles
It was a Deus ex Machina. And that Deus was R'hllor.
@@nicodemusedwards6931 That's a good one.
I agree with you that Theon's chapters in ACOK are not that interesting but imo that is a problem with all the Ironborn-related stuff in ACOK. I really like Davos' chapters in ACOK though, I find him easily the most likeable character in the entire series. He just a good, solid broski that has Stannis' best interests in mind. And his arc about neglecting his sons but then drifting away from Stannis some in favor of his family is really compelling to me.
ACOK is my favorite book in the main series for these reasons:
*best paced novel in the series
*constant, building, tension all the way through to the end
*Tyrion at his best, best Tyrion chapters by far
*introduced Stannis, Davos, and Brienne, three of my favorites
*some of Jon's best chapters, north of the wall had me on the edge of my seat
*Catelyn's best chapters by far
*Renly was a very fun character and tbh I wish he was king
*Daenarys in Qarth was so fun and intriguing, house of the undying is still one of the biggest moments in terms of prophecy and theory crafting
*Blackwater
Catelyn is the character from which we are introduced to so many places and so many people, like Winterfell, King's Landing, the Vale, Riverun and riverlands, Storm's end and many of its characters along with reachman. I just love her chapters.
I am fond of Renly as well, but he was too close to winning to be left alive. What would happen if Renly lived?
He would have most likely leisurely made his way up the roseroad, knocked on the gates of king's landing, where littlefinger would have seen the writing on the wall, (the writing being 100 000 armed men outside the walls and the lannister forces getting kicked around the riverlands) and promptly tell the goldcloaks to throw open the gates. Renly sits down on the shiny chair, Joffrey either dies or gets imprisoned, 50/50, while Tommen and Myrcella are taken hostage. Renly wins, conflict dies down, the tragedy of the realm being so divided and exhausted while the apocalypse happens isn't a thing and the story doesn't have a biting theme. Renly was in the end a bit like Ned, would have been good if he lived, but had to die for the plot.
I genuinly dont think either of the Baratheon brothers would let the incest kids live. Even if they didnt love robert it give them legitimacy to kill the pretenders that stole his throne.
Tommen and Mrycella weren’t in Kingslanding at the Time.
@@Ryanfinder226Tommen could go to the Wall and Mrycella the Silent sisters
@@mysteryjunkie9808 Myrcella *might* have been allowed to become a septa, since she was so young. Maybe both the kids would have been given to the Faith if Renly was feeling merciful. If Stannis had won though, they'd both have been toast.
Do u honestly think stan wouldve just let renly be king..
I actually started with reading ASOIAF with A Clash of Kings.
It is actually doable, you do not miss anything from book one, and can figure out everything important from it.
I later read book 1 for the first time, and I honestly do not know whether I would have been sucked into the series as fast and deeply if I had started with it instead of book 2.
ACOK was truly a Rollercoaster that was building speed all the way to the finish. It's the one book in the series that felt like it was constantly gaining speed
I think the thing I loved the most about Clash last time I read through it was trying to think about what it would be like to read it when it came out and then have to wait 2 years for A Storm of Swords to follow up on everything it did. I was first introduced to this series through the show and well into its run at that, so both my first watch and my first read saw me blazing through the story, especially at this part as you always get this urge with part 2 to rush into part 3 to get some closure, which I did both reading and watching. On a reread, there's some really interesting cliffhangers in this one that I just never thought as being such because Storm almost feels like an obligation to read after you finish Clash.
The first thing that comes to mind is the fakeout deaths in Catelyn, Theon and Davos's final chapters and how readers must have just thought Jaime, Theon and Davos were dead until Storm confirmed otherwise, but there's also some really foreboding endings for other characters that had to have been killer to have to wait on. Arya leaving Harrenhal because of how unsafe she feels, despite being surrounded by Northmen, is so perfectly chilling and Roose going hunting for wolves at the end of this book is a really unsettling note to leave him on. Jon also has a really great ending as he seems to go off script at the end, and going into ASOS you really have no idea what the wildlings are gonna do with him or what's become of the rest of his brothers back with Mormont and Sam. Sansa and Tyrion have a bit less ambiguity to them as you can safely predict where they're going to be for the foreseeable future, but the dangling thread of Dontos is still there to entice you, and for Tyrion, while GRRM wasn't so bold as to leave any possibility of him dying, now that he's stripped of his status as Hand of the King, you have to wonder if he's just going to go on another journey like he did in AGOT. And then Bran, man, the baby bird leaving the nest with his wings clipped is such an underrated way to close this book. His fakeout death didn't end up bridging the gap of books 2 and 3, but the way it's felt in Catelyn's and even Tyrion's chapters after the fact is such a cool concept, and I think really paved the way for Martin to mask other twists through word-of-mouth misinformation, which leads to a ton of interesting developments in the books to come. You get this sense that the characters never truly know what's going on in the world outside of their personal bubble, and that's such a great way Martin makes you feel the world getting bigger.
By the way, loved the spotlight on the Cressen prologue, it's my favorite prologue too, and I think it's a microcosm of what makes Clash so special. In that chapter you're suddenly plopped into a brand new location without a single familiar character and a lot of new ones who are going to be very important very soon, and this chapter takes on the challenge of introducing you to all of them while delivering a handful of great character moments for them and endearing you to its narrator despite the fact that he will inevitably die at the end of this chapter. Clash practically doubles the scope of this series, and this prologue is an appropriately big first step towards that result, shouldering the burden of such a broad world while still maintaining the heart and soul that made the story worth telling.
Overall, I still think I have Clash as my 4th favorite in the series. Feast probably gonna my #1 pick forever for how much that book means to me personally, and while there are parts of Clash I prefer to AGOT and ASOS, I can never convince myself those two books aren't better. It's still better than Dance in my opinion, which even as I come to appreciate it more is still a bit too messy not to be the weakest of the 5, but this book being 4th out of 5 is more of a testament to how great this series is than a weakness of this book individually.
really good analysis - I can’t wait to get to Clash in my reread. (just started haha)
I hadn’t even considered the cliffhangers! they really are excellent and yeah, twists delivered by word of mouth is so cool. Jon’s Clash chapters are some of my favorites from him, and I said in another comment how much I love Sansa in this book.
@@carmina-solis Sansa is the best! Enjoy the reread, and if you've ever read Dunk and Egg keep an eye out for Targ history references, because you can see GRRM changing the focus of his lore to better suit later plotlines he's setting up. One of the coolest things about his gardener style is being able to see all the seeds that didn't grow into anything right alongside all the stuff you know will be really important later.
It’s wild to put these things into perspective, and I’ve only learned recently that Clash has reached it’s 25th birthday. I started reading ASOIAF 2 years ago, and Clash is as old as I am! In fact, I’m one month older! Here’s hoping Winds will release in a very near future, and great video as always!
Happy belated birthday!
Happy birthday to you!
Now I'm feeling my age more than ever... I was finishing my first go through uni when Clash came out, and read it a few years later at the urging of an old friend who's a horror and fantasy writer herself, when she shoved it and Game of Thrones into my hands with orders to "read and learn". I'm so glad I listened to her!
The start of Clash remains imo the best opening to any of the books. Everyone seeing the red comit, my favorite prolog, Mel being introduced and the war officially starting. As well as magic and profecy really starting to come into the world.
It really does feel like the calm before the coming storm that is the next 2/3rds of clash and especially A Storm of Swords.
This book really has the best atmosphere due to the tension that builds all the way to the end
There are some rough parts of clash but the fact that the opening chapter and the last chapter are both so unbelievably good and possibly some of the best opening and endings to a book ever is something that makes it special
@@strongbad4usean I am just about to finish ACOK. I am 906% done with the audio book. I agree that the beginning was absolutely amazing.
I'd never thought about each of them representing some ideal virtue of a king. If I had to guess: Robb - justice, Renly - popular support, Joffrey - strength or something, Stannis - conviction, Balon - opportunism
I dont think Joffery represents the kingly virtue of actual political power. Although that power comes from Tywin its his main protection (for awhile)
Joffery represents the conservatism/ignorance of the cityfolk. Remember no one really knows Joffery is a bastard or even cares that much. People just want to live their lives and don't want to be in a war.
ACOK is so strange to me cause when I first read it I thought there's no way I'll ever read a book this good again. I was convinced it would be my all-time favorite book forever. then of course I read ASOS and AFFC and somehow they were even better, but even so, Clash being the first that I felt that way for will always give it a special place in my heart
That House of the Undying was so great I re-read it 3 times on my 1st read through. Also when Ramsey revealed himself to Theon and burned Winterfell... goosebumps every time
I really love ACOK. "There was no safe anchorage on Pyke..." George handled the Battle of Blackwater with 3 POV's with a masterful stroke. I Wonder if The battle of fire is more complex, and that he may be struggling with Tyrion, Barristan, Vicatrion all arriving on scene.. Great video Q.
The most slept on book in the series tbh. Feast is still my favorite though.
Nice to see another Feast fan
@@ashleycoburn9770 I absolutely love just how dark it is
I think Clash and Feast are the two best written stories overall. As self contained stories they tell the best ones; both of these books have a very easy theme to follow
AGOT is solid of course, but it is not as eventful
ASOS is basically just cool thing after cool thing, so people don't notice that it is basically just payoff for the first two novels
ADAD is the most sloppy and jumbled by far
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy during my re-read last winter, I tried out the “boiled leather” combined reading order of Feast and Dance. I highly recommend it if you’re ever planning on doing a re-read. I feel like it makes Dance much more enjoyable and easy to get through for people that aren’t the biggest fans of it.
@swaggerdagger5168 I've definitely heard of it yeah! If I ever re-read them I will do it that way. But yeah, it's interesting how Feast came out of the cut as a cohesive story, and Dance was just what was left
Funny, I just picked it up. Was on another series
I love the editorial voice Martin employs twice in this book.
"...I am not without mercy." said he who was notoriously without mercy.
I never understood Balon Greyjoy. Why attack the broke ass North when Lannisport was right there for the taking? Not only would the Ironborn get Lannister gold, they could leverage the pillaging as aiding Robb or Stannis.
@fazediamond5671 if only the kings had a way to communicate with one another. Robb had Tywin on the back foot. Stannis had the Navy and a castle that was a short distance from King’s Landing. He could attack at anytime. And Renly was young, so he could have waited out Stannis. He wasn’t going to have anymore kids with Lady Selyse and Shireen was sickly. Renly probably would have been king in less than ten years.
@fazediamond5671I'd say it's more to do with Balon's vendeta against Ned for embarrassing him during his rebelion, and killing his sons than anything else. Because, strategically, it's a FAR safer bet to raid Lannisport while Tywin is distracted by Robb, than thinking he could've held down the north.
It's a plot thing, don't let anyone tell you otherwise lol
That's mostly because Balon is just very stupid. He hates Ned for humiliating him and then Robb again for "offering" him a crown, and being Ned's son who ruined his last son.
I think you're supposed to realize it's a bad plan, Asha says as much later in the books. But it's created out of a long line of petty grudges and people too stupid to question what he says (mostly because they like it)
I think that it's the subtleties that stand out the most. Both Jon and Bran realize that they are wargs. Bran comes to Jon in a wolf dream and tells him to open his third eye, potentially naming him a greenseer. Theon has the Feast for Crows vision in his dream after killing the two children, foreseeing Robb's death. I read Clash the first time when it first came out. I was about 19 at the time and did not appreciate it then as I do now. Even to this day, it is one of the least favored in the series, for much the same reason that you initially did not like Dance, but reading it now, the nuances that are included make it really stand out. The political dynamics really take center stage. It's not just Tyrion playing. Every POV is doing it, and Sansa is the only one that is lagging behind because her Ser Dontos Florian arc has filled her with enough hope that she believes that she can get out of King's Landing without any more trauma. Well, Theon as well, feeling slighted mostly by Asha and believing that he can take Winterfell to prove his prowess to his father, and realizing pretty quick that he bit off more than he can chew. Bran learned what it meant to put duty first, something that Jon is struggling with throughout, but Jon learns some valuable lessons on being a team player with Qhorin Halfhand, but also seeing what it's like to be respected and taken seriously as a ranger and brother of the Night's Watch. Catelyn's chapter in the dungeon has to be my favorite chapter though. This is when Jaime really strips his heart bare for the first time and we get a glimpse of who the real man is underneath... that and the end when he's trying to remember Jon's name and Catelyn calls for Brienne and he says, "No, that's not it." Arya really starts to understand that she does have agency. Obviously she struggles with that. Out of them all, even though it's a toss-up with Sansa, I would say that her arc in this book is the most traumatic, and it's not until Harrenhal that she's able to do something. Danaerys goes from the Red Waste destroying her little group to arriving in Qarth. Out of every POV, I would have to say that she's better at the Game of Thrones than Tyrion, simply because she is more manipulative. She uses her own "handicaps" against others. Tyrion advises Jon to do this in Game, but then always has Bronn and others to instill fear into others because he has gold. All in all, Martin took advantage of the opportunity afforded by the emergence of the conflict begun by Robert's death to really play with his characters and it translates really well on paper. If Storm is the greatest fantasy novel ever written, then Clash is the greatest prelude to what that would really look like. Strip it down, much like what Game is, and Game isn't a stand alone. Game showed how a fantasy could look like. I sat on a Barnes & Noble floor, reading Game until Jaime pushed Bran. It was late '96, or early 97. Nothing like that had ever happened before. There was a realism that Martin had captured that had never been attempted before, even though he was emulating Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, Game showed that "fantasy" could be serious, and cross the line. He didn't need "magic" to prove it. But with Clash, he showed how that could look once you took magic past the point of dreams, visions and a funeral pyre and put everything together. Wheel of Time was the bar that had been set up to the point when Game came out. He loved Wheel of Time, among other epics. He didn't take WoT and throw it out. He took the bar, and no one has been able to find it since then. These first books weren't even promoted. He never believed that they would do good. That's why I passed up Game for several months. Even the way that he wrote 3rd person was different. No one did a limited view point in 3rd person. You just wrote 1st person. No one ever took the classic hero out and replaced it with an ensemble cast of heroes and villains. No one wrote "grey" characters. It's not different to you because you didn't go through the literal chronology of how these books have actually shaped literature as a whole. I've been a bookworm for my whole life, and I couldn't even appreciate what I was seeing as it happened. Clash is the most underrated of all the books solely on account of the Red Wedding and how none of us saw it coming. I didn't care about Jon until after Robb's death. To me, Ned was the hero of the story, so Robb was supposed to win. Then suddenly Jon became Lord Commander when he clearly wasn't ready for it, and I knew something was up. We didn't have UA-cam, or reddit. Everyone was in the dark. We caught some foreshadowing here and there, but we didn't have World or anything. It's in Clash when we really get to see, even before there's much evidence, that many of these characters are Ta'varen, as Robert Jordan called them. Most of them are reincarnations of earlier heroes and villains of legend.
That Maester Cressen quote was amazing, in a few lines, George gave us great characterization without boring us. This is why this is my favorite series. George is simply unmatched when it comes to characters.
Started a reread of Asoiaf recently, and coincidentally I started Clash just last night. I gotta say, reading the series after having been exposed to all the theories within the Fandom makes for a very different reading experience.
And just think, in 25 more years we'll just be about to get Winds! 🙃
Winds will be written by whoever the GRRM estate sells the rights to. GRRM wrote himself into a corner and can't find a way to write himself out.
I feel like a good chunk of the hype surrounding Winds is in how we get conclusions and battles and wrapping up of many plots that have been growing since ASOS. However, conclusions seem to be very difficult for GURM, and certain things like Meereen and Kings Landing need to be resolved before Faegon tries to take the throne.
I actually read this book last as I started with book 3 and read forwards then looped back to 1 (completely wrong I know) and I must admit it remains one of my favorites. I think that Storm of Swords remains the best book in my opinion but Clash really succeeded in portraying the buildup to massive conflicts like the Blackwater, actually taking time to show the logistics and then the true reality of battle. Plus it introduced my favorite character in the one true king! 🦌🔥
Good stuff man, Catelyn is so good in this book and her time at Renly’s camp is one of my favourites in the series (if you couldn’t tell lol). Also Aryas last chapter escaping Harrenhal, killing the guard at the gate always gets me as well.
Catelyn III might be the best chapter in the series. The clashing of storylines and amazing dialogue was just something else. Seeing the war of egos between the brothers combined with Catelyn's quote about how Robb is the only man defending Westeros shows how uncoordinated these three factions who all equally hate The Lannisters are.
Robb: Hey Balon help me in my war and you can get independence and sack the richest cities in westeros.
Balon: Nah imma pillage some fishing villages instead
Political genius Balon Greyjoy
@@QuinnTheGM something something Iron Price
Guess ol Balon was too stupid to follow his ancestors in the honored tradition of sacking Lannisport.
also balon greyjoy: hi iron throne, can we ally even though you took part on taking down my rebellion 👉👈, also please grant me the north UwU
@@justsomedude5727 "You see, our philosophy demands that we do things in the hardest way possible, regardless of logic or reason."
Came out right as I had my lunch break. Quinn has our back, it is known.
The Davos chapter featuring the parley at Storm's End is one of my favourites in the entire series - definitely my favourite of Davos. Cortnay Penrose was such a badass. Goodness knows why his character wasn't featured in season 2.
The prologue with Cressen is easily the best one we've gotten so far, followed by A Storm of Swords'. I was livid with D&D for watering down his character on screen, stripping his death of its poignance.
What a great video for a great book. I always consider chash to be my favorite book and i think you sumarized why perfectly here
The final chapters for Theon and Tyrion had me at the edge of my seat, definitely my favorite in the series so far, tho I'm really excited to start with Storm of Sword
Absolutely agree with mostly everything you’ve said! I love Cat in this book, and honestly i love her for most of the series. But indeed her chapters with Renly are fantastic. I’m readying the book rn again and god that’s such a fun and interesting pov, her and these bickering idiots. love it
Same! And I love all her interaction with Brienne, too. The way GRRm wrote two wonderfully different female characters playing off each other with respect and even a sort of affection is a refreshing change, and made both characters feel so much more real and human.
And yeah, I wanted to smack Stannis and Renly's heads together too!
The significance of Balon I think is one part as you said of the troubles for Robb but also the weakness of The Iron Throne under the new Baratheon order. First the Iron Throne no longer has dragons and then no longer has the conqueror's dynasty and then no longer has legitimate kings at that. The kingdom is set to balkanize and those islands are the first to leave because easiest brick to fall.
I sometimes hear from people that A Clash Of Kings is the weakest in the series. Either that or Feast. I love it. It introduced many characters or fleshed out others alot more which I enjoy reading about. Mainly Stannis, Davos, and Renly. It goes back and forth between my favorite and second favorite
Objectively, idk how anyone could say it's the weakest. It is the best paced book in my opinion, it truly felt like there was a sense of urgency as Stannis, Renly, and Rob were closing in on the Lannisters and victory seemed inevitable. I think AGOT is easily the weakest, and ADAD is kinda messy and ambling with certain POVs. I'd put Clash just under Storm at #2 for me
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy
Storm is definitely the best, but AGOT is certainly not the weakest book. Feast for crows is easily the weakest book. Dance is a close second to Storm.
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy The first half of the book suffers from some glacial pacing. I think the story lacks a focal point the way AGOT did with Ned, both narratively and geographically. I don't think the Stannis/Renly conflict was the most compelling, even though I appreciated the Davos chapters. I found some of the Arya stuff boring and unpleasant. I simply think AGOT holds up the best as a standalone book, but also sets up the rest of the series perfectly.
Having said all this, the second half of Clash is a 10/10, in my opinion. It's just that the first half is like a 7/10.
Quinn, I loved the video but I'm disappointed you didn't talk about any of the Stark kids. Arya's chapters are arguably the best she's ever had in the books, Bran's chapters dealing with the Northern Rebellion (no Ramsay mentioned) and the Ironborn. Sansa has some good stuff in this book as well and she meshed nicely with Tyrion's chapters.
Yes!!! I love Arya in ASOS too but she really shines here, as does Sansa! I’ve loved Sansa since day one (my friend who introduced me also loves Sansa) but this is the book where she really comes into her own. Her conversation with Cersei in Maegor’s Stronghold is excellent. And I love Jon’s story here too!! Again, I think I prefer ASOS Jon overall but his story gets going here.
My one big criticism of Clash is that in the Stannis & Renly storylines, their glacial pace to reach King's Landing feels really contrived to line up with the end of the book. There's a lot of "Oh and then this thing happened which delayed them" moments.
Other than that, 10/10 book.
A great review Quinn! May the Jon Con be with you!
Renly is a power hungry sleazeball wearing a charming mask. Something the got writers didnt get.
Fuck the show, it's a worthless piece of garbage from beginning to end.
and he was the best suited of the 5
I recently finished the book for the first time and I’d say it’s one of the best books I’ve ever read.
Clash is my favorite book in series and I agree that Martin found his ASoIaF-style in this book.
Wow, you're still in high school and posting such high-quality content. Honestly, that's inspiring and impressive. Nice job, dude! King Stannis will win in 'The Winds of Winter.
I’m on law school, not high school. Thank you though!
@@QuinnTheGM still impressive 🔥 nice work
Nah Stannis will lose to the boltons. Just like in the show.
5:42 Balon is not just opportunistic. If he were, he would have allied with Robb and both of them would be Kings at the end of the story. Instead Balon is (like Stannis actually) massively motivated by pride. He has very clear ideas of what his status should be, and how things ought to be done and his entire conduct of politics is determined by that.
Balon doesn‘t just want to be King, he wants everything done HIS way and refuses to bend to anyone or cooperate with others. If Balon allied with the North or even just attacked the Lannisters, Robb would win the War and end up way more powerful than Balon. So instead, he attacks the North in (utterly vain) hopes of capturing that, thinking he can then take on the Iron Throne from a position of strength. And he probably wants to get back at the Starks over taking Theon hostage.
In any case, this is completely delusional but Balon is so indoctrinated about the way things should be done that he thinks that will actually work.
Clash is my personal favorite book in the main series and my second favorite book set in the world of asoiaf, with my favorite book being fire and blood
High five! I’m also younger than A Clash of Kings! I’m also younger than Storm.
Holy crap
I just realized that I’m younger than a majority of the main series.
I’m going to… I’m gonna go stare at a wall.
Believe me, it's better than knowing that you're over twice as old as at least half the people here, including the guy who made this video!
2:58 you've nailed the biggest plot hole in game of thrones on the head Renly wanted to be king because otherwise Stannis would've immediately won the war
@fazediamond5671Thank you for mentioning this. I think what Stannis supporters often miss is that victory is far less guaranteed if Renly gives up the crown during the negotiations than vice versa. So let's say he does relinquish the crown, and gives his support behind Stannis. That would mean breaking all the promises he made to all the lords who had been backing him to that point, leaving them open for negotiations with the Lannisters. Because what can Stannis really offer them for their support? He's already married, so Margery loses her spot as queen. Renly is named hand if I remember right, so that's off the table. He's basically guaranteed to lose the support of the Tyrells and their bannermen, which was indispensable during the battle of the black water.
Now, say Stannis supports Renly. What does he have to lose? He wasn't very popular in the first place. His support was entirely based on good will from his bannermen, and Rhllor fanatics, all of whom aren't likely to shift allegiences just because Stannis supported his brother. I suppose Melisandre would be pissed... But Stannis was foolish to trust her in the first place. Trusting her very nearly led to him burning an innocent child alive and his demise on the Blackwater.
If anything, Stannis would only stengthen Renly's already popular movement. But he was too focused on his own self-righteousness and Mel's visions to see what was truely important.
How on earth is that a plot hole?
look up the definition of plot hole lmfao
I doubt the Tyrell’s would have backed Stannis though, with good reason
I'm 23 years old and I just know started reading the books just got done with Clash of Kings and just wow can wait until the next boom even tho I watched the sieres growing up
Definitely the book in the series that I like least. That being said, it does have some strong stuff too. Tyrion's chapters are great and the Blackwater is also absolutely fantastic.
As for your final statement that this is the first real "A Song of Ice & Fire" novel, I half agree.
I think you're completely right that this is the first time we get a more sprawling book, whereas "A Game of Thrones" was this very tightly ploted and more fast-paced, actually somewhat plot-driven story. Clash definitely gets away from that a bit. But I actually think it still isn't nearly as expansive as Storm, Feast or Dance.
I see Clash more as a transitionary book. Where it still holds on to some of the tighter plotting of Thrones, but at the same time it also is beginning to become more expansive like the books that come after it.
But I think that, for me, that's part of what makes it weaker. "A Game of Thrones" has the strong plotting, even if it lacks the expansiveness of the other books. The other books have an expansiveness that I love. This has a bit of both, but doesn't go all in on either. And so for me all of the other ones are preferable.
I've also never been a huge fan of Catelyn's chapters, and I tend to love Daenerys' chapters, so that probably is also one of the reasons I didn't like this book as much.
Don't get me wrong, it's a good book. And it has some very strong stuff as well. But it's still the one I like least.
Love these videos
Great job 👏🏻
i actually really like the ironborn plot, i’m such a fan of pirates and the Drowned God as a concept that any more time i get with House Greyjoy the better. that, and Theon is genuinely one of my favorite characters in the series
Balon is uninteresting until after he dies, where you get to see him through his brothers' and daughter's eyes.
You immediately contradicted yourself when talking about Renly. His entire point is that who had a claim or not didn’t matter when Robert took the throne, but you said he did have a claim because everyone else was “dispossessed or deposed”.
Yeah…. Because Robert dispossessed and deposed them through conquest, not because of his claim. Viserys was the rightful king even after Robert deposed Aerys and killed Rhaegar, robert took the throne anyway. Renly’s argument is that it doesn’t matter if Stannis has a better claim, because Renly can actually conquer and take the throne unlike Stannis
That’s not say he was right or had a claim, but you’re implying Robert did have a legitimate claim. He didn’t, Viserys would have to be dead for the throne to legitimately pass to him
I would say that Stannis (or Mel and her followers) is also an analysis of religious fervor in rulership
Off topic, but I noticed it while listening to ACoK on audiobook earlier this week:
The parallels between Lyanna/Rhaegar and Ygritte/Jon. When Jon is supposed to execute Ygritte, he asks himself if he is truly his father's son. Yes. I'm gonna let this pretty northern girl running around with weapons go, end up sleeping with her, and be troubled by it for the rest of my life.
He is definitely his father's son, just not the son of the man he thinks is his father.
“As a whole” Counter: 6
Average seconds per “As a whole”: 153 seconds
Shortest time between “As a whole”’s: 40 seconds
Renly should have ended up on the Summer Isles being ignored by their feather cloaked nobility
6:18 When you read, you begin with A-B-C
When you sing, you begin with Do-Re-Mi 😁
OMG! Did you just reference Do Ra Mi? "Let's start from the very beginning, a very good place to start. When you read you begin with A-B-C. . . ."
I'm surprised you didn't talk about Arya, she's one of the best in this book. Also, I think Bran's story is also really good in clash.
Both were in a combined section that ended up on the cutting room floor. Hopefully I’ll talk about them someday!
I think Bran and Arya both had great chapters in Clash, and this was before they became wearisome in ASOS and especially in Dance.
Arya had this chaotic, brutal, terrifying experience through war that really set up the character growth later on
Brans chapters had this great ominous feeling...impending darkness and danger, very much Martin showing his horror muscles. You just had this feeling that things for Bran were going to get worse fast
Cressen's chaper has my favorite Mellisandre description, being Red and terrible and red
do you think any aspects of the storylines involving the North wanting to go to war with the lannisters or the greyjoy rebellions maybe inspired by the movie braveheart or the scottish fight for independence. Robb starks and ned stark kinda give me william wallace vibes and both were betrayed and died in ways that they didn't deserve like william wallace. And the reason the greyjoy rebellion gave me braveheart vibes is just that ironborn culture kinda just feels very similar to not only viking culture but also celtic culture. And the iron born wanting to be independent from the other kingdoms again and baelon wanting to king just reminds me of the Scottish fight for independence.
I'll admit to not liking Stannis, even before the show. And after thinking about it, it's probably for the same reason a lot of characters in the series don't like him. Saying it's his "harsh sense of justice" is one way of putting it, but I'd put it another way - he doesn't play the game.
Stannis is Just and Lawful, but as noted by Donal Noye, he'll "break before he bends." And that's his big flaw. Yes, he has the most legitimate claim to the throne (let's just ignore the hypocrisy of this as his big claim, given Stannis's part in the rebellion), but that's really all he has. And unfortunately, Stannis seems to be of the opinion that that's all he needs, and that everyone should just flock to his banner by default, without him offering them anything in return.
Yes, his refusal to engage in the politicking of the realm is reasonable (probably even wise), but by laying claim to the throne, he _has_ to play the game. Refusing to do so while fighting this war is like playing poker and deciding to never bluff.
Shout out Sound of Music reference
I finished this book like 3 months ago so I was pry reading it during its 25 year anniversary I’m still on storm
yo Quinn do you think its possible that the evolution of theons character into reek may be inspired by smeagle's gradual transformation into gollum?
That’s a fascinating idea I’d never really considered! I love it!
This has been my head cannon for a decade
Strong Belwas referenced best of your recent videos
I had an entire segment on him in a video less than a month ago lol
@@QuinnTheGM once a month qouta lol 🥰
Clash is definitely underrated I'd say. I think storm is still best in my opinion, but there are a lot of things that storm pays off that clash set up. I think people largely dismiss clash because of that, feast too in some respect. If not for a few relatively weak Dany chapters I think clash could very well be the best technically written book in the series.
I don't know if it's technically the best written, but on my reread of the series I enjoyed Clash the most.
3:35 how can you justify saying Robert has a better claim then Viserys III?
I'm not, I'm saying that with Viserys III removed from the picture and exiled, Robert has the best claim.
The next book is near... just after George finishes counting his sweet HBO money
where do you go to law school? i am a huge fan and am about to start studying for the LSAT, In wonder if there are lots of ASOIAF fans who are in the field it feels like they align somehow for me!
The drawings on the right, are they made by GRRM himself?
From what I remember of the battle of black water chapter with davos- part of it felt like a snooze fest by naming all the ships and all the pre battle stuff but that’s just my opinion
Since Stannis is somehow based on emperor Tiberius, I can't imagine he would be a good king >_
The best chapter is Catelyns when she interacts with Jaime.
My biggest problem with this Book was the entre Dany Quarth storyline.
@Darius-_ sos made Dany top five characters, imo If you don't think so, maybe read something else
@@Darius-_her she chooses to help the unsullied and slaves instead of just going to Illyrio its her finally coming into her own and paving the way, she comes so far from a meek little girl to Khalisi...
@@Darius-_ she wins Daryo, the second son's etc to join her through her own fearlessness and wit but also trusts her people and advisors when needed, like a good queen.
@@Darius-_All that plus Danny just has such a fun personality and all her chapters have incredible stand out moments and writing...easily the most iconic got character 😊
Her evolution from Agot to sos is also a lovely parallel with Sansa who learns to be brave despite everything being against her 💕
Only If cat made an alliance with the mannis ......
I believe this book has one of the greatest last chapters in a series ever written. Daenerys X might be better but that's it
The shows biggest sin was cutting Strong Belwas.
Renly’s claim is perfectly fine. During the Feudal era, succession by the eldest son was very much guidelines rather than actual rules. Just ask Robert Curthose. The question of who should be King was very much a practical question, especially for the nobility who had to be his vassals.
To this end, the Storm- and Reachlords are not wrong to back Renly. He is far more qualified than his brother, being the only one of Steffon‘s sons to show a lick of political sense. Better yet he‘s fundamentally practical.
People love Stannis for some reason, but I cannot stress enough what a bad sign it is for someone to be so bitter about brother giving him the *wrong castle* that he barely talks to him after 15 years. I know people who are like that and none of them are fit to wield power over anyone. This man literally despises his closest family because they are not how he wants them to be. Not only are these terrible character traits, this obsessing over how he thinks things should go shows a complete inability to think practically.
A competent statesman needs to take people and situations as they are, then figure out what he wants and what problems need to be solved, all while keeping a sense of perspective about what‘s actually important. All things Stannis is unable to do, unlike Renly (and incidentally Robert!), but also unlike Eddard, Jon Arryn or pretty much any competent leader.
Same with his obsessive insistence that *he* should be King because that‘s his legal, god-given privilege. Sure, Stannis also thinks he‘d be a better King than Renly (he wouldn‘t) or anyone else (because he still blames Renly for being a child 15 years ago when Renly was a child), but his priority is clearly the fact that he‘s entitled to it. What Stannis is, is a Class A bootlicker. He spent 15 years faithfully obeying Robert, not because he‘s his brother or anything, but because Robert is the head of the family and Stannis is resolved to obey him no matter what, even if he actually hates Robert which he does.
And now that Robert is dead, without trueborn sons so now it‘s Stannis‘ turn to get his boot licked, even if people hate him. He did it for 15 years, so now they should, too. Stannis calls all this duty, but his priorities make it very clear that for the most part it‘s about wanting it because he‘s entitled to it.
If he were actually as concerned with the good of the realm as he claims, he might have considered the damage that he‘s doing to the Realm by trying to become King at any cost. Which incidentally is one of the main points George R R Martin is trying to make: no matter how just you think your cause is, war is not just.
But this is one point that seems to be perpetually lost on Stannis-stans.
THANK YOU! All this is why I'm ride or die for Renly. No other would-be king in Westeros could rally people behind a single just cause quite like the youngest Baratheon. Even Robb was arguably coasting on the good will the northmen had for his father, and we saw how quickly that was squandered in book 3. And as much respect I have for Stannis' conviction, his commitment to duty, he effectively threw in the towel when he killed his brother. Between Renly's charisma, his support from the Tyrells, and Stannis' fortitude, together they would have flattened the Lannisters, if only Stannis could stop listening to Melisandre, swallow his pride, and serve his brother as Hand.
And with the Lannisters deposed, Joffrey's head would've likely been sufficient in appeasing Winterfell, even if it meant Robb giving up his crown. Then, with Winterfell at full strength, the ironborn would've been even more of a nonpressence then they already were. And with the seven kingdoms effectively united, Westeros would've been in the best form to fend off Daenarys, or Faegon from the east, or eventually the threat of the white walkers from the north. Granted, all that probably would'nt have gone down that cleanly, but you get the idea.
The fact that he was a gay icon, and the closest Westeros ever got to a feminist is just the cherry on top. Idk, I haven't finished the current books yet (I'm in the middle of AFFC), and when I read Brien chapters, and see the amount of reverence she has for Renly, I realize his death impacted me almost as much as Ned's, even if he was a pretty minor player in the grand scope of things.
👍
As to your critique of Balon...he's a "PIRATE"! The leader of a "CULTURE OF PIRATES"!!! So, the fact that he acts opportunistically doesn't seem like some failure of validation or scope...he's a side effect of the Chaos. That doesn't make him or his story less pertinent to the story. FWIW.
In my (very) personal opinion, a great book has to fill two criteria at the end - to leave me satisfied and to make me want to see more.
"Clash" really only did latter for me. I agree with assessment that it is probably the most important book in the series plotwise, but when I finished it, I wasn't completely satisfied. It's really difficult to explain, but it felt like there were some important pieces missing.
For example, let's talk about Davos and Stannis. In "Clash", those two characters weren't really interesting to me. Davos was a bit boring and I wasn't really looking towards his chapters, while I saw Stannis as nothing more than rightful jerk. It wasn't until "Storm" that I got onboard with this storyline.
Renly was also disappointing to me. In first book, he seemed like a cool, brave guy. Here, however, he was just a huge "all show, no talk" twat. He irritated me to that point that I was genuinely happy when he got killed.
Theon's story was another one that was difficult to get into due to how much of a jerk he was. Also, the fact that he spends most of the book sitting in Winterfell doesn't help. Much like Davos and Stannis, he's a character that got more interesting later on.
I was never really a big fan of Dany's storyline and I have to say that "Clash" is her absolute lowest. Outside of that one chapter in House of Undying, I couldn't care less about her story and Qarth and kept wondering is all this really that important.
I also wish there was more of Jon in the book (because he's my favorite character in the series) but his story is fine.
On the bright side, other characters were all great. Tyrion and Catelyn were just as good as they were in the first book, Arya somehow was even more interesting than she already was, I finally managed to get onboard with Sansa's story (which was the least interesting part of "Game" for me) and even Bran's chapters were entertaining.
Overall, I think that it's the third best book in the series after "Storm" and "Game".
Oh, you are younger than me. I tought that you were older
Nice video, but if you keep quoting the "martin is a gardener thing" its gonna become a drinking game
The sad part is you will do a video like this for ADWD before we get TWOW😂
I did one in July lol, I’ve only done Clash and Dance so far
@QuinnTheGM oh I watched it, I was meaning the 25 years later part.. lol.. keep up all the good work and thanks for everything so far..
Sorry Quinn. You aren’t allowed to eat sleep or live. Only GOT all day, everyday.
Good grief, I read ACoK before you were born.
I just hate all the Arya chapters in the first half of the book, it makes Clash of Kings a slog for me to read
Their so boring and then just get really good halfway through and never let up atleast for me...
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Balon's opportunism is absolutely stupid and exists only for plot convenience.
Theon's plan to assault the Westerlands and seize Lannisport (maybe with a really cool Ironborn grappling hook based assault on Casterly Rock) is a way better idea than invading the North. Theon goes to his father suggesting that they sack and loot Lannisport, a city full of gold, and Balon mocks him for the idea before invading a frozen wasteland. Balon is being a crony to the Lannisters while he thinks he's fighting for himself. There is nothing worth taking in the North for the Ironmen and its sheer size would make it impossible to hold even if the Ironmen won.
dw3ef
Stannis has more in common with Marshall Applewhite than he does with a good king.
Say what you will about Balon but his kingdom is still independent while Renly is dead and the North is under the Boltons
AND HE STILL AIN'T DONE 👎
Jon Snow - and his stubborn northern honor - is so irritating. He heard the plot against Jeor Mormont's life, and just like his stupid 'father' Ned decided to keep his mouth shut. He killed the Lord Commander just as much as Chet and the others. Can't stand the pig headed Starks.