Fun fact: Odysseus's name literally means "anger bringer/angry man." Reason: when he was born, his material grandfather was tasked to name him, and his grandfather really hated having that responsibility and so on purpose chose a name that means "angry man" So yeah, its in the name to piss off humans and deities. Sorry for my garbage English
Fun Fact: Telemachus is old enough to take the throne but there’s another obstacle in his way. Ithaca is ruled not only by the King but a Council of Elders who have to approve the ascension of the King. For example Odysseus’s father, the previous King, is still alive but he lost his mind so the council deposed him and crowned Odysseus King at age 13, but Odysseus had proven himself in their eyes by that time with his wit and skill. Telemachus has tried to convince the Council to name him King in his father’s absence but he doesn’t have the political pull to make it happen so the Council decided that the next King will be whatever suitor Penelope marries. Now Telemachus could still become king but he would need the opportunity to prove himself but the opportunities are in short supply, but it is something the Suitors would be mindful of. Thank you for coming to my TED talk
Oh ok, I'd been wondering about that for years cause like they call Telemachus a boy but he's 20 years old, he's an adult by ancient Greek and modern standards so why can't he take the thrown? Now I assumed he didn't ascend to the throne because that would basically be him and Penelope admitting that Odysseus is gone and they couldn't bring themselves to believe that, but now i see there was a different reason.
Another fact to add on is that Telemachus tried to string the bow, and probably would've succeeded on his 4th try, before Odysseus stopped him in order to become the king by completing the challenge.
For a little mythological lore, Penelope was a daughter of Sparta, more specifically a princess. Not only was she considered one of Ares most protected people, but she was also a woman who was staring down a hall full of men looking to attack and abuse her, the absolute worst kind in Ares' eyes. Seeing the red aura they give to Odysseus' eyes hints very strongly at Ares recognizing what was happening and what was said from the suitors, and in turn using divine intervention to empower and protect Odysseus to slaughter them all. Athena promised him blood, and he would collect in spades through Odysseus.
Penelope's challenge is actually much more cunning than initially appears. Its commonly thought that Odysseus used a recurve bow, which would have been a really rare style in greece at that time. Recurve bows have a special way of stringing them that would not be known to the suitors, so in reality they have 3 challenges in one: Have the strength to string the bow, the intelligence to figure out the technique, and the skill to shoot it through the axes. If the suitor didn't have all 3, then he wasn't even worth consideration. Alas, I think that when Odysseus killed Antinous, he actually completed the challenge, stringing his bow and shooting Antinous through the axe heads, essentially dunking on the suiters and punishing them at the same time.
In the original story, Penelope sat directly in front of the axes so if someone were to actually complete the feat, they would have shot the arrow into Penelope too meaning it was her saying that she will rule with whoever but she won’t be there to see it
I think actually Odysseus was the only one who could use that bow because Athena was the one who give it to him and it was enchantes or something like that (im not sure though)
@@marshy_5406 NO, in the Odyssey Penelope did not sat in front of the axes, literally Telemacus tries to complete the challenge and Odysseus does complete it. After she sets up the challenge she leaves
@@marshy_5406that is not true, in the original, when the challenge is proposed Odysseus' is around and disguised as a beggar, with Telemachus already knowing who he is and Penelope suspects his identity, not only that, Ody and Penelope are discussing in private when Penelope comes up with the challenge.
The three Odysseys of Odysseus' family: Odysseus: Had to survive all sorts of supernatural and godly threats while becoming the monster just to make it home. Telemachus: Had to hold off all the suitors alone while weaker and seen as unworthy to defend his mother until Athena gave him a push. Penelope: Had to wake up every day for twenty years and see the emptiness where her husband was and dealt with all that loneliness rather than take any of the suitors into her bed for any momentary relief. All in all, do not mess with this family.
@@thesaltybeard1793 To be fair, it's in Greek myth nature for home lives to be insanely treacherous. In the original Odyssey I think they got off ideally, but I'm assuming in this retelling things aren't as.. well, overwhelming for the family, lmao.
Actually, I've seen some mention this before. Odysseyus aims for the torches like Scylla, traps them like the cyclops, uses his wit like Circe, and is ruthless like Posidon.
@@Gemini-LionI doubt it, Telemachus feels like he just arrived and even arrived after them all. I think it was an intentional lure. The suitors just assumed it was him. People don’t like believing they’re gullible
@ yup. she was put in charge of makeing sure penelope finished. but when ody came home, he asked the servant woman who rased him which servants took the side of the suters, and they were orderdto clean the place after themasacer, and then executed them. so she gor her «stitces»
It was one of the suitors sisters I think. The one who rallies them near the end of Odysseus. Could be wrong though, I just remember she was an ungrateful person to Penelope.
@@marcoarana9952 She was actually basically Penelope's adopted daughter but got seduced by Eurymachus, who was basically the suitor who was the greatest intellectual threat to Penelope, and decided to side with the suitors
I love ANYONE realizing that note in... THAT chorus is Penelope screaming, because its somehow the most heartbreaking detail to me. Its the same notes as Odysseus screaming "No" after the windbag is opened And to Antinous, its music to his ears. Trust me, that song is the masterpiece we all feel dirty for liking
The fact all the gods and monsters in the musical were written to have at least reasonable motivations for their actions(avenging family and friends, survival, loneliness) while the suitors are just unapologetically scumbags. They are just evil because they can be. It recontextualizes the idea of Odysseus choosing to become a monster.
@Dashel-uv3rx Zeus was avenging Helio's cows. Yes he was a jerk about it, but he was fulfilling his duty as keeper of the skies (Helios is the Sun, and directly asked him to avenge his cattle) and leader of the gods
It's also smart storytelling. After an anime-esque battle where Odysseus takes out his guilt on Poseidon, how do you up the ante? The threat can't become grander... so it becomes real.
The line in The Challenge about dying instead growing old without the best of them is important because in some retellings of the Odyssey, Penelope sits/stands at the end of the line of axes so that if anyone is successful in shooting through the axes, they’ll win the challenge but kill her in the process
@PoseidonsWinionDaughter26483I started laughing when I read that, but sometimes when I'm listening to that part I vibe a little too hard and someone asks if I'm okay💙💙🩵🩵🩵💙
He doesn't, but there's a reason cutting bodies apart and throwing them in the ocean is so bad in Greek mythology. If you cut a body apart, it's like tearing the soul apart too. When you throw said body in the ocean, it's like making sure your soul never makes it to the underworld
There IS a parallel with the ocean stuff because if the body is in the ocean, it can't be given the proper funeral rites. No burial, no proper way to cross the river Styx, it's a control thing.
The specific description, cut to pieces and tossed in an ocean, is probably to show just how evil the suitors are. The only other time I can think of such a thing happening in Greek Myth is when Medea, someone who is considered an evil witch, does it to her brother and is generally considered super evil for such an action
@jordanlyons2609 Yeah, because they had to stop to pick up all the brother pieces instead of stopping Madea. The body needs to be in one piece. The suitors want to make sure even in the afterlife that Telemachus doesn't find peace.
When Penelope is singing "Waiting" to Odysseus, there are 7 waitings. One waiting for each saga he was away from home, and it lasts 20 seconds, each second representing a year he was gone.
@exwhyzee_ he almost got it right here, she says waiting 7 times, ody says penelope twice for each time he hears or sees her in his mind, and its in order too!! The first two waitings are troy and cyclops, he then says penelope cause he hears her in storm (keep your friends close) waiting two more times for circle and underworld, then hears her in thunder (thunderbringer) and then three waitings for wisdom, vengance, and Ithaca, where she was waiting until song 40 where she finally reunites with him.
@@Shenningtatum you almost got it right here, when Odysseus first thinks of Penelope in Horse and the Infant, he says “Penelope, Telemachus”. Now I assume you’ll counter that with “ah but he says “Penelope, Telemachus” again in horse snd the infant making it two times”. This goes against your point because you’re expressing the *repeated* motif being “Penelope, Penelope”. Nice try though!
YES!!! The fact that for 20 years she dreamed about recounting him in their own room after all that time to the point of not knowing if Odysseus ACTUALLY being there was true or an illusion is both precious and heartbreaking 😭💕
It's something that stuck out to me from Telemachus' song too, but him responding to Odysseus with 'Of course!' IMMEDIATELY flashed me back to when the Penelope!Siren responded to him with 'Of course!' too, like it's some sort of verbal tic he adopted from his mother 😢❤
I like to imagine that while Antonius is standing singing Hold Them Down Odysseus is stringing the bow, and at that final note he fires the shot through the axe heads into Antonius' throat.
Maybe my last round of fun facts. Strap in: *The Challenge* - Of course, Penelope is an absolute queen, in all ways. She’s been weaving that shroud for years. Finally, she’s decided to give them a challenge, knowing they can’t accomplish it. There are different versions of how the bow is made/enchanted, but the gist is that only Odysseus can string it. Her line “I’d rather die than grow old without the best of you”, at first, sounds like it might mean she’d rather die than marry someone who can’t match her husband, but no. She’s saying, “Only my husband can do this. I’d rather die than marry one of you.” And hearing _them_ sing Penelope, when we’d previously only heard Odysseus sing in love and longing for her. (Minus Zeus’ tiny bit from the beginning). It just. AAAHHH. Great song *Hold Them Down* - in Ancient Greece, not having a body to bury is one of the worst things you could do. Having no body to find, meant Telemachus wouldn’t be able to pass into the afterlife. They wanted to ensure he would _never_ be able to rest, even in death. While Antinous is singing about what he’ll do to Penelope, you can hear her instrument screaming in the background. Side note, but I love that they had Wolfy animate Antonius’ death. They’re an OG Epic animator, and I always adore seeing them, especially since they got to take him out 👏 *Odysseus* - “Polyphemus”, “Scylla”, “Charybdis”, all the monsters he faced. The king came home and slaughtered just as they had. There are several references in the song. They’re chanting his name in the background in the same way Polyphemus’ name had been chanted, but it’s also a throwback to the souls’ chants in No Longer You. We also finally get Tiresias’ final prophecy- “kill all the suitors for love). Other references, we obviously have Scylla for the torches. The “No” after that suitor asked for mercy is a reference to Odysseus asking Poseidon for mercy during Get in the Water, and he also replied with a cold “No”. When Telemachus first arrives we can hear a Quick Thought, our first hint that Athena is still alive. As her new warrior and friend, he is also dressed like Athena, which is very cool. *I Can’t Help but Wonder* - “if I have your strength in me.” “The strength you hold within.” Odysseus told Telemachus he doesn’t need _his strength,_ because Telemachus has become a strong young man during his absence. “Capture wind and sky for you”, in a way he did with Aeolus and the storm. Odysseus sensing Athena was there showed just how close they had been. He knew she was watching without even seeing her. An overall beautiful and heartfelt song. *Would You Fall in Love with Me Again* - he said “waiting for love”, not “waiting for me”. Odysseus knew there was a chance she wouldn’t accept him after everything. You can hear Poseidon’s trumpets/theme in the background when he says “left a trail of red on every island”. How he became ruthless. The olive bed is the heart of the house. Odysseus met Penelope there, then built his entire palace around what he made for her. When she asked him to move it not only was it a test to see if he _knew that,_ but also if he was willing to literally uproot the start of their journey. The monster rises, his rage bubbling when she asked, but Penelope didn’t recoil. Our Spartan legend not only accepted him, but she _met him_ on the monster’s level. Odysseus was her husband, and he returned. Odysseus’ first words in the series are battle commands. His final are telling Penelope how much he loves her. Epic is such an amazing experience, and I’m so ready for whatever they have in store next for it! (This has all just been _the concept album)._
Funny thing I haven't seen anyone talk about. Even though he's detailing his plan in front of the others, when Antinous says what he'll do to Telemachus' body, he says "only the ocean and I will know", indicating that he had been planning to get rid of the other suitors aswell.
@@thechadinyou339 That's a pretty blatant thing i feel. All of the suitors are competing for kingship, only one can win, something will have to happen to the others.
Might I add a little thing: in WYFILWMA, you can hear poseidon’s motif after “left a trail of red on every island”, but also Thunder Bringer after “as I traded friends like objects I could use” and Scylla’s ‘drown in your sorrows and fears’ after “hurt more lives than I can count on my hands”
@jordanlyons2609 Yeah, yet everyone that I've seen react to epic, me included, did not catch that. Did you catch it the first time? If yes, congrats. If not, why you saying it's blatant?
Something I really like about Would you fall in love with me again. is that Penelope cuts through all the self loathing and pity party bullshit. putting that image that Odysseus is now some warped, uncaring monster that men, gods and even Odysseus has placed on him. her saying it's all nonsense and showing Odysseus himself that they're all wrong, that if he truly was that beast, that he wouldn't feel all this guilt, regret and pain. if he was just some monster he wouldn't care. and the theme of just a man coming back is being used as something positive here because it's meant to remind Ody and us that he's just human who's hurt, and that he's 'Just a Man' and that's okay.
The entire premier, up until the Ithaca Saga, was a bunch of nerds reacting to their own work. Dancing, rowing. So many shenanigans. It’s grainy footage, but still hilarious, especially No Longer You. I don’t think Mason, the singer for Tiresias, had seen any animatics because each time he saw one he was baffled 😂
22:50 especially considering ares is also considered as "protector of women". Son of poseidon once "take her love and more" daughter of Ares... Ares killed him in return saying "I don't care if you are son of Zeus".
I have a headcanon when it comes to the waiting melody Penelope sings throughout this Saga. It made me think, as Jay was particular with whom to give motifs and lyricisms, making them theirs and iconic of their identities. Waiting is supposed to be Ody's mom's. And though it's easy to attribute it to just two women Ody holds highest to his heart, my headcanon is that the very melody she is singing is the same melody Penelope and Ody's mom had been singing and consoling each other with as they await Ody's return. So, in Ody's learning of the song in the underworld, not only is it a final show of love from Ody's mom to him, but also a love letter from Penelope across worlds, and across time.
One of my favorite parts at the end is if you listen to Odysseus' "Penelope" lines they are all filled with doubt... that fear of "am I to far gone to be loved" And in contrast Penelope straight hard shuts that down not only claiming him as hers, but her waitings are very much a I love you, have always loved you and will always loved you and I've been here this whole time because I love you so get over here and let me love you Ody and Penelope have the type of love we all should strive for
It's so funny watching people react and realize that one of the best songs in the show is unfortunately about murdering the prince and molesting the queen. Everyone is just torn between loving it and being disgusted.
The thing about Penelope setting them up is that Odysseus supposedly had a recurve 500 pound bow. Even an 80 or 100 pound bow is an incredibly difficult thing to string, if you've never done it before, and don't have someone helping. Odysseus, dressed as a beggar, did it on his own, and the shot that slew the leader of the suitors went through the twelve axes before striking that scumbag's throat. Also... the singer for Antinous originally audition for --Poseidon-- Tiresias the Prophet, but Jorge knew an even better role for how villainous his voice could become, clearly. In the original Odyssey, Athena was in the rafters, nudging the suitors weapons just barely off target to tip the scales in Odysseus, Telemachus and Odysseus's father's favor, while all the staff were told in advance to hide and ignore all sounds from what would be happening. Then after the suitors were handled, the three sorted through the staff for those who had been faithful or who had somehow been aiding the suitors, etc, and those who were faithful were spared joining the suitors' fate. As for the red eyes, that happened when he did 600 Strikes on Poseidon, and then tortured him with his own trident. That was the moment he fully accepted being the monster, because even after Scylla, he tried to protect his men to keep them from killing --Apollo's-- Helios's cows, and trying to be gentler with Calypso when he finally could leave her island. But after Poseidon, all that was left were the suitors, and both Poseidon and them were worthy of the wrath used upon them.
@everettjoseph6189 really? I had read on two other videos it was for Poseidon. But, I guess I didn't hear it from him, Jorge, or the other cast members.
@@jackierabbit Ah, yes. I was going off Epic: The Musical having Apollo show up, but forgot the Greek Pantheon has multiple sun gods, and that it was indeed Helios in The Odyssey.
This might be a little evil, but "I Can't Help But Wonder" always makes me laugh a little bit. Not the song itself, it's incredibly tender and sweet, but like... They haven't left the room yet. I can't help but picture them having this beautiful moment still streaked with gore and surrounded by bodies. Just completely ignoring all the murder that just happened (which, reminder, is ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHT PEOPLE). Which is exactly the amount of respect the suitors deserve LMAO. Good for them
The comment about Ares somewhere giggling and kicking his feet is even more apt as Ares was also known as the protector of women. He totally would have been like, "I think he can have a little more battle juice, here you go king", lol
The first thing I always like to point out, because most don't seem to realize it: Ody is likely in his mid to late 40s during these events. He was an established King during the games for Helen's hand which is where he convinced Helen's Father to put in a good word for him with Penelope's Father by coming up with the "We will fight for Helen's husband should any take her." The man had been worried a war could start over her (I guess he was right...). Then he and Penelope got married and had Telemachus. 10 years of war, 10 years to return home. At youngest I'd put him at 43 or so but 46 sounds more reasonable. Odysseus had a Palintonous (might have spelled that wrong) Bow, which means it's a Recurve Bow. Recurve Bows, when unstrung, bend in the opposite direction of the Archer when held and require a special technique to string. There is no brute forcing the bow, you don't know how you won't be stringing it. Telemachus was already old enough to become King... unfortunately he had no backers so a coup d'etat would likely have happened. 17:42 "Truly becoming the monster": Yep, that's why the song is Titled "Odysseus"... only monsters get a song *titled* after them.
Fun fact! Axe heads in those days had a hole in the center, and I've seen at least one interpretation that says the bow is a recurve bow, which needs a stringer to avoid damaging either the bow, the person stringing it, or both. Also, the shot that killed Antinous also completed the challenge. Just thought that was cool.
@ I’ve seen people say it’s the hole you use to hang the axes on the wall, and that seems reasonable enough for me. It’s the version the MythBusters went with, if that counts for anything. But I have seen axe heads with holes in them, and that’s possible too.
@@alexandersean4708 For the recurve bow thing, that's more based on the description of what the bow was like in the Odyssey. I don't think it was ever called such
Btw if you listen closely in Hold Them Down you can hear Oddy in the background vocals. It's super subtle and you need really good headphones/buds to hear him.
the vocals i haven’t caught but you can pinpoint the exact second ody shoots his arrow too (right before it lands the blow to the throat / right at the start of the last “soul”). also need really good earphones for that
Omg I've been WAIIIIITIIIIIING for this reaction! Also I wonder if you've noticedat 33:43 when Odysseus says "left a trail of red on every island" there's the melody for "ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves". And then for "as I've traded friends like objects I could use" there's "Thunder bringer". And then I assume for "hurt more lives than I can count on my hand" is "drown in sorrows and fears" from scylla. There's so many Easter eggs in this entire saga, really looking forward to all the animatics this is gonna have. Once again thanks for the reaction ❤❤❤
@@zjmiller6627 okay valid point tho and yes that could be one way to interpret it. But its not just hurting A life it's hurting more lives than he could count on his hand so technically sacrificing six ppl to scylla or it could also be "there is no price he won't pay" from mutiny. Your comment made me think who else did he hurt and it was also his friends on that last remaining ship, following scylla. But it could be Calypso's not sorry for loving you, if we look into it as what happens chronologically song wise: ruthlessness, thunder bringer, not sorry for loving you.
You know one thing I haven't seen anyone talk about is that Odysseus loves Penelope so much he didn't even think of lying to her about the things he'd done. He simply loved and respected her too much for that.
Wanna hear something even darker? In THAT part of "Hold them Down" we hear Penelope's instrument playing the melody of the NOOOOOOO scream that Odysseus yelled when the bag is open. So we are hearing musically Penelope screaming "no" in sorrow while THAT part of the song is being sung.
Oh also, in Would you still fall in love with me again, is a commonly held belief in the community that Penelope sings waiting 8 times (including the oh at the end) to show that she waited for 8 sagas to see him. That and she sings “For” at the end in Odysseus’s motif as he has been singing her name in her motif the entire musical. Also also, when Ody sings about all the things he’s done, the motif of a particular song will play. Like “Left a trail of red on every island” the motif for Ruthlessness will play. After “traded friends like objects I could use” the motif for Thunder Bringer plays
"I don't care how, where, or when, You're Mine." That line, and her implied ownership over his heart, which we've seen proven true time and time again throughout this musical, and her dedication to that, That line always makes me tear up. It's visceral, it's lovely.
Fun fact: The "diplomatic mission" was Telemachus searching for his dad where if memory serves me right he asks Odysseus's crew who split up with him after the trojan horse.
A bit of background on the cast of "Odysseus" -Eurymachus. (The guy trying Open Arms) This guy is the leader of the suitors alongside Antinous. He himself is the favored candidate by Penelope's brothers and father (and I think Telemachus too as he calls him a God amongst men at some point) Eurymachus is rich charismatic and gives lavish gifts. He's also deceitful though and like the other suitors he breaks the rules of hospitality. He endorses Antinous' plan of killing Telemachus even though he pretends to be Odysseus' bff from back in the day (he uses this claim to buddy up to Telemachus) and he's also sleeping with Penelope's personal slave/handmaiden wich is how he finds out about the ruse with the shroud she's weaving. When the massacre starts he throws all the blame on Antinous and begs for mercy. It does not help him. -Amphinomus. (The dude who got stabbed by Telemachus in the weapons room) Actually a straight-up fellow. He tries to win Penelope's hand by genuinely being a nice man. If she has to pick one he's the preference. Ampinomus is the suitor who veto's Antinous' "Let's kill the Prince" plan. And when Odysseus enters the palace disguised as a beggar Amphinomus warns him that it's getting dangerous there and that he should probably leave. Odysseus tries to warn him about the approaching massacre but Athena compells him to stay (he's still a suitor so for her he has to die) sort of tragically he gets killed by Telemachus whom he had prevented the murder of. -Melanthius. (the guy calling the suitors to jump on Telemachus) He's not actually a suitor but Odysseus' "disloyal" goatherd (also a slave but different times and all that) he serves the suitors now and provides them the best meat I think? He's afforded a place at their table anyway and he's meant as a contrast to Odysseus' "loyal" swineherd/slave who helps him infiltrate the palace. Melanthius survives the suitor massacre but gets horrifically maimed by Telemachus and others after, his nose gets cut off, his hands too I think, it's all rather gruesome.
Odysseus and Penelope's relationship is so wholesome! They've both been through so much over the last 20 years and so they deserve to be happy together for the rest of their lives!
I mean at least one of those was Athena's doing. Odysseus tried to warn Amphinomus because he's actually a stand-up guy. Athena just compells him to stay because he's still a suitor and Telemachus ends up chucking a javelin through his abdomen wich is ironic as Amphinomus was the one suitor to constantly veto Antinous' "let's kill Telemachus" plan.
Something really cool is the final animation is done by Gigi. Which for most people, including me, Gigi's animation of the Horse and the Infant was their introduction to Epic the Musical. Even includes the signature Gigi spin.
I believe when he says “my mercy has long since drowned, it died to bring me home” is that a call back to when he fought Poseidon? Because in get in the water, he technically “drowned” and then from then forth he’s had red eyes. If it is, that’s a really cool touch by Jorge😯
14:29 You'll be glad to know Antinous's VA sings other songs and unlike his character, he's a total dorky goofball and we love that for him!! He's amazing!!
"I am going to thurouly enjoy it!" During Suffering was a fantastic line! One I wholeheartedly agree with. Someone else was talking about it, and they didn't understand how I could be so excited at the Suitors' deaths, like, 'Odyssey became a monster, that's not something be be excited about!' But like, seriously, not a single one of the suitors spoke up against sa, not one defended her. If Ody is a monster, I want one to protect me like that.
It's actually three melodies after the other. "Left a trail of red on every island"= Ruthlessness "While I traded friends like objects I could use" = Thunder Bringer "Hurt more lives than I can count on my hands" = Not Sorry For Loving You.
11:10 to make it worse, cutting up his body and throwing him deep in the ocean means his soul may not make it to the afterlife as it would be scattered and buried 32:39 Just noticed, she KNOWS he's different, she said it herself, and then she called him "my love", she's already established that its still him even though he's darker
“He’s just a man… who’s finally made it home… even after all the years he’s spent from what he knows he’s just a man…” are some lyrics I seen a fan made for the ending of Wyfilwma
Can you imagine Poseidon’s reaction to Telemachus being scattered in the ocean after the beating he just took from his dad!??? Like no thank you, hey Oddy I swear I had no hand in this thank you!!
So Penelope’s challenge isn’t actually impossible, it’s just that the only one that could pass it would be Odysseus. She’s either getting someone who’s at the same level of her husband or nothing and I love this woman! Great video and now we wait for the Cut Songs Saga 😂
In the end of the final song, I love how Penelope sings "Waiting" eight times for eight sagas without Odysseus, minus the nineth saga where Ody returns! I also love the Ruthlessness and Thunderbringer Motifs popping up when Ody tells Penelope of the things he's done!
fun fact: in will you fall in love with me again waiting is sung 7 times and penelope twice, in order of the nine sagas. waiting for when ody was away penelope for when he was almost home! so that would be: waiting (troy saga), waiting (cyclops saga) penelope (right before opening the bag in keep your friends close- ocean saga), waiting (circe saga), waiting (underworld saga), penelope (after scylla they were very close to ithaca- thunder saga), waiting (wisdom saga), waiting (vengeance saga) waiting (most of the ithaca saga) oh (will you fall in love with me again, when they finally meet again). soooo yeah jay is a lyrical genius
For athena and odysseus encounter it makes so much sense cause this time their goodbye was on good terms cause it would be hypocritical if after all of what he has done he cant embrace the open arms so he cant be her warrior anymore ❤ i love that this time it was a gentle goodbye with no hard feelings
"Left a trail of red on every island" (ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves) "As I traded friends like objects I could use" (thunder bringer) "Hurt more lives than I can count on my hands" (why in the world won't you love me too) Bonus: the melody of Penelope's "for" in "for you" is the same as the crew's "woah"s in Remember Them and Different Beast, in the sections right before Odysseus's name is said.
22:50 not only is Ares kicking his feet for the bloodshed, but also WHO Ody is slaughtering. Ares kinda gets the rep as evil guy in media, but he’s one of the few good Gods in mythology. When a son of Poseidon attempted to rape one of Ares daughters, Ares killed the son. When he was brought to court by the other Gods, he was acquitted. That added with other details in his mythology, he’s among the most feminist icons in my opinion.
There's a cut song between young Oddy and Athena about asking Athena to help him getting Penelope but sadly it's so short. I wish Jorge can release the cut Saga aka the Lost Saga. There are so many interesting song I'd like to listen to in the saga
39:11 I love that the last reprise of the show is the instrumental of “Just a Man” after Ody and Penelope reunite, showing that all of this, even his “monster” side, happened because he’s just a man
Something that makes the part about Penelope in hold them down even more disturbing is that you can hear a viola in the background, which the viola being penelopes instrument it portrays kinda like penelope screaming and to me it just makes it even worse😭
I love how Eury was like "hey yeah..... Sooo you killed Antinous ... I didn't have anything to do with this so... You should forgive the rest of us with open arms and let us leave" Buddy, no that's not how that works.
I have been binging these videos since the day after the release party---you're the first one I've seen who caught the true meaning of the Just A Man outro. Thank you
The funny thing is Antinious is the only antagonist who is human but has no humanity in him all the other antagonist are either monsters, gods, and goddesses have some humanity in them except the only human Sad fact: during ‘Hold them down’ while Antinious is expressing what he plans to do to Penelope you can hear a Viola which is her instrument almost like a substitute for her screams Antinious: only the ocean and I will know! Poseidon: Hell no! Leave me out of this! Antinious died as he lived pathetically Odysseus strategy he learned Block/lock any exits like Polyphemus Disarm his opponents like Circe Hide in the dark and aim for the torches like Scylla Leave nothing to chance like Poseidon Odysseus became the monster One amazing detail about ‘Would You Fall in Love with Me Again’ is that when Odysseus is getting outraged over the idea of cutting down the tree their bed is built around the music swaps his more gentle guitar for the electric guitar that represents his monster, and when Penelope responds instead of changing to her signature viola it keeps going with the guitar. Because in this moment Penelope is matching Odysseus' ferocity with her own, not merely accepting the monster in him but staring it down on equal footing and daring him to keep saying it's something she would fear or that could change a thing about how much she loves him. I saw people in other videos getting worried when Odysseus got mad at Penelope, but that's the whole point. She wants him to get mad. She's trying to show him that he's still the same person in the ways that matter, because only her husband would care enough about the bed to get angry with her. Like she said *“Only my husband knew that! So I guess that makes him you! I will fall in love with you over and over again I don't care how, where, or when. No matter how long it's been, you're mine! Don't tell me you're not the same person! You're always my husband and I've been waiting!”* The red eyes don't vanish. They just dim slightly as he is feeling hope… but what was done cannot be undone. He is a veteran that has gone through trauma, and that PTSD will always follow him, as well as his actions, and that is what the entire point of The Odyssey is about. Tragic events change people so they aren't who they were before… however, that adds shields and pain around who they used to be, it doesn't erase that past, or the path to the present. Empathy, sympathy, and compassion can help ease those burdens, but never take them away fully. And if someone ever were to ignore their own misdeeds, that would be more monstrous than anything Odysseus still feels guilt and grief about. The suitors, on the other hand, well, no need to feel guilty there, as they were about to create tragic events themselves, and far worse than most along Odysseus's journey… without the justification of everything he had gone through to get to that point.
I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS. Best part of watching the live stream is that it shows how much telemachus changed from the boy who got his ass kicked to a boy who is fending off so many opponents at once and even cutting them down.
Another reason for the challenge is that the suitors were on the verge of revolting and forcing her to choose one of them, so the impossible challenge was to buy time for herself and for Ody to come Also the way Antinous would kill Telemachus, it would leave him with no way to cross the River Styx and enter the afterlife Also I personally headcannon that Ody knew Athena was helping Telemachus, due to recognizing the armour
love how in the edit u say ares is somewhere in olympus kicking his feet, cause a popular theory is that ares was with odysseus in this saga like how athena was with telemachus because odysseus has red eyes during the animatics and he's clearly much more rageful and driven by anger which is what ares does to the people he helps, he makes them a better fighter by making them rage
23:07 imagine you were just a guy for some reason walking around the palace around the time ody gets back and seen as a suitor- also in one version ody is killing suitors butt naked - I’ll tell y’all why if I feel like it :p
penelope saw a huge storm and thought to herself "only my husband can piss off the gods like that" lmaooo
And yet was still certain he'd return home, because "even if my husband pissed off the gods, that won't stop him returning to me"
Fun fact: Odysseus's name literally means "anger bringer/angry man."
Reason: when he was born, his material grandfather was tasked to name him, and his grandfather really hated having that responsibility and so on purpose chose a name that means "angry man"
So yeah, its in the name to piss off humans and deities.
Sorry for my garbage English
@@terra4822Your English wasn't bad
@@terra4822 ur english is fine and iirc hermes was his grandfather too which makes this funnier
@@jbomber4416hermes was his great grandfather
“I kinda hate how much I loved that song” perfectly describes everyone’s feelings about Hold Them Down
Gonna use this as a point to recommend Ayron Alexander's own music, especially his most recent song "Haunt"!
I mean it is right in line with the old Disney tradition of “the villain song is the best song”
For real
Yup, I think I feel that way about quite a few songs in this musical. Maybe it's because a lot of them are villain songs?
EXACTLYY 😭
22:50 the thought of Ares giggling like a school girl over Odysseus slaughtering all the suitors is funny
Ares: *screeching like a vulture while holding light sticks and a tshirt that says I love Odysseus now*
Aphrodite gets roped into it somehow lol
With the headcanon that Ares bakes I’m imagining it playing out like
Aphrodite:
BABE,HE’S DOING IT!
Ares:
THE COOKIES AREN’T DONE!
@@specturv9836 there is no somehow here. Aphrodite missing THE most loyal couple's reunion? She's right next to ares sharing cookies he baked.
@orein1880 nooo, you're right. Her and Hera are full on ugly crying lol
Fun Fact: Telemachus is old enough to take the throne but there’s another obstacle in his way. Ithaca is ruled not only by the King but a Council of Elders who have to approve the ascension of the King. For example Odysseus’s father, the previous King, is still alive but he lost his mind so the council deposed him and crowned Odysseus King at age 13, but Odysseus had proven himself in their eyes by that time with his wit and skill. Telemachus has tried to convince the Council to name him King in his father’s absence but he doesn’t have the political pull to make it happen so the Council decided that the next King will be whatever suitor Penelope marries. Now Telemachus could still become king but he would need the opportunity to prove himself but the opportunities are in short supply, but it is something the Suitors would be mindful of.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk
oh i didn't know this! you learn something new everyday lmao
ty !! i had wondered why Telemachus wasnt crowned since he was like 20 yrs
This makes Legendary have so much more meaning. "I want to be legendary" Looking for an opportunity to prove himself as worthy of being king.
Oh ok, I'd been wondering about that for years cause like they call Telemachus a boy but he's 20 years old, he's an adult by ancient Greek and modern standards so why can't he take the thrown? Now I assumed he didn't ascend to the throne because that would basically be him and Penelope admitting that Odysseus is gone and they couldn't bring themselves to believe that, but now i see there was a different reason.
Another fact to add on is that Telemachus tried to string the bow, and probably would've succeeded on his 4th try, before Odysseus stopped him in order to become the king by completing the challenge.
For a little mythological lore, Penelope was a daughter of Sparta, more specifically a princess. Not only was she considered one of Ares most protected people, but she was also a woman who was staring down a hall full of men looking to attack and abuse her, the absolute worst kind in Ares' eyes. Seeing the red aura they give to Odysseus' eyes hints very strongly at Ares recognizing what was happening and what was said from the suitors, and in turn using divine intervention to empower and protect Odysseus to slaughter them all. Athena promised him blood, and he would collect in spades through Odysseus.
also another little Odysseus translation insert, during "Hold Them Down" Odysseus is present in the room. He heard their entire plan.
Penelope's challenge is actually much more cunning than initially appears. Its commonly thought that Odysseus used a recurve bow, which would have been a really rare style in greece at that time. Recurve bows have a special way of stringing them that would not be known to the suitors, so in reality they have 3 challenges in one: Have the strength to string the bow, the intelligence to figure out the technique, and the skill to shoot it through the axes. If the suitor didn't have all 3, then he wasn't even worth consideration.
Alas, I think that when Odysseus killed Antinous, he actually completed the challenge, stringing his bow and shooting Antinous through the axe heads, essentially dunking on the suiters and punishing them at the same time.
One such animatic actually animated that last bit.
In the original story, Penelope sat directly in front of the axes so if someone were to actually complete the feat, they would have shot the arrow into Penelope too meaning it was her saying that she will rule with whoever but she won’t be there to see it
I think actually Odysseus was the only one who could use that bow because Athena was the one who give it to him and it was enchantes or something like that (im not sure though)
@@marshy_5406 NO, in the Odyssey Penelope did not sat in front of the axes, literally Telemacus tries to complete the challenge and Odysseus does complete it. After she sets up the challenge she leaves
@@marshy_5406that is not true, in the original, when the challenge is proposed Odysseus' is around and disguised as a beggar, with Telemachus already knowing who he is and Penelope suspects his identity, not only that, Ody and Penelope are discussing in private when Penelope comes up with the challenge.
The three Odysseys of Odysseus' family:
Odysseus: Had to survive all sorts of supernatural and godly threats while becoming the monster just to make it home.
Telemachus: Had to hold off all the suitors alone while weaker and seen as unworthy to defend his mother until Athena gave him a push.
Penelope: Had to wake up every day for twenty years and see the emptiness where her husband was and dealt with all that loneliness rather than take any of the suitors into her bed for any momentary relief.
All in all, do not mess with this family.
A family of commitment and sheer freacking will 🔥🔥🔥
And then after it all their home life was kinda meh and rife with problems apparently! Hahaha
@@thesaltybeard1793 To be fair, it's in Greek myth nature for home lives to be insanely treacherous. In the original Odyssey I think they got off ideally, but I'm assuming in this retelling things aren't as.. well, overwhelming for the family, lmao.
@@thesaltybeard1793Why do you feel the need to do that? 🫤
@HaydrogenBomb cause it makes me hard idk
Fun fact: Jorge had to ask Anni to lessen how much gore was in the Odysseus animatic because it would be too much for youtube.
Slight correction, it was "hold them down" that got censored, specifically the telemachus part. I don't think anni did any scenes for "odysseues"
I'm honestly surprised as much as we already got got through lbvs
Toning down the gore was for the beheading scene I think. But he wanted more bodies for the final shot for Odysseus
@Slythergriff ah
Actually, I've seen some mention this before. Odysseyus aims for the torches like Scylla, traps them like the cyclops, uses his wit like Circe, and is ruthless like Posidon.
And lures them in with the weapons like Charybdis does with whirlpools
He also does it in his palace like Circe does
@@DND20 Well, I’m pretty sure that was Telemachus who did that
@@Gemini-LionI doubt it, Telemachus feels like he just arrived and even arrived after them all. I think it was an intentional lure. The suitors just assumed it was him. People don’t like believing they’re gullible
4:28 a service girl snitched that she undid the work, so she had to finish it, she then gave the challange.
THAT SNITCH
@ yup. she was put in charge of makeing sure penelope finished. but when ody came home, he asked the servant woman who rased him which servants took the side of the suters, and they were orderdto clean the place after themasacer, and then executed them. so she gor her «stitces»
It was one of the suitors sisters I think. The one who rallies them near the end of Odysseus. Could be wrong though, I just remember she was an ungrateful person to Penelope.
@@marcoarana9952 She was actually basically Penelope's adopted daughter but got seduced by Eurymachus, who was basically the suitor who was the greatest intellectual threat to Penelope, and decided to side with the suitors
"You don't think I now my own palace? I BUILT IT" is the coldest line ever, this saga was great too.
Either that or “Next to my wife” either way this man has the most cold lines-
@@percelladevil Yeah
I love ANYONE realizing that note in... THAT chorus is Penelope screaming, because its somehow the most heartbreaking detail to me. Its the same notes as Odysseus screaming "No" after the windbag is opened
And to Antinous, its music to his ears.
Trust me, that song is the masterpiece we all feel dirty for liking
The fact all the gods and monsters in the musical were written to have at least reasonable motivations for their actions(avenging family and friends, survival, loneliness) while the suitors are just unapologetically scumbags. They are just evil because they can be.
It recontextualizes the idea of Odysseus choosing to become a monster.
Did you forget Zeus?
@Dashel-uv3rx Zeus was avenging Helio's cows. Yes he was a jerk about it, but he was fulfilling his duty as keeper of the skies (Helios is the Sun, and directly asked him to avenge his cattle) and leader of the gods
It's also smart storytelling. After an anime-esque battle where Odysseus takes out his guilt on Poseidon, how do you up the ante? The threat can't become grander... so it becomes real.
@felipeveloso1578 He didn't just ask politely, he gave Zeus an ultimatum: avenge his cows or else he would take the sun to the Underworld.
@@felipeveloso1578 Fair enough.
15:29 "The other diva who stabs Odysseus" is the best way I've heard someone describe Perimedes to date 😂😭 that took me out I wont lie
like oml he IS a diva lol
@@aadityayanamandra8846”GIMME THAT BABY AND I’D YEET IT OFF A TOWER”
"can't fall if I don't fly, can't fail if I don't try~" great now it's stuck in my head again
@akirauchiha187Brb, gotta listen to it again xD
"Gimme that baby and I'd meet it off the tower!"
"....what?"
The line in The Challenge about dying instead growing old without the best of them is important because in some retellings of the Odyssey, Penelope sits/stands at the end of the line of axes so that if anyone is successful in shooting through the axes, they’ll win the challenge but kill her in the process
She really is the goat lol
Queen shit, literally.
Oh wow! I already thought she was a bad ass Queen but that loyalty and the determination to love only him is heartbreakingly beautiful!
That never happens? Provide source please
SHE DOES NOT, read the odyssey. Odysseus literally makes the shot through the 12 axes, why would he try doing that knowing is gonna kill her.
12:01 Poseidon wants no part of this out here with “only the ocean and I will know”
Yeah leave our Swiss cheese god alone
@PoseidonsWinionDaughter26483 not the Swiss cheese lmao
@PoseidonsWinionDaughter26483I started laughing when I read that, but sometimes when I'm listening to that part I vibe a little too hard and someone asks if I'm okay💙💙🩵🩵🩵💙
Wet!Hades: I know no shit!
He doesn't, but there's a reason cutting bodies apart and throwing them in the ocean is so bad in Greek mythology. If you cut a body apart, it's like tearing the soul apart too. When you throw said body in the ocean, it's like making sure your soul never makes it to the underworld
There IS a parallel with the ocean stuff because if the body is in the ocean, it can't be given the proper funeral rites. No burial, no proper way to cross the river Styx, it's a control thing.
The deep Greek lore that seeps through this musical is insane
Also can't pin it on him lol. For all anyone knows telemachus died at sea rather than being murdered
@thesaltybeard1793 yeah.
The specific description, cut to pieces and tossed in an ocean, is probably to show just how evil the suitors are. The only other time I can think of such a thing happening in Greek Myth is when Medea, someone who is considered an evil witch, does it to her brother and is generally considered super evil for such an action
@jordanlyons2609 Yeah, because they had to stop to pick up all the brother pieces instead of stopping Madea. The body needs to be in one piece.
The suitors want to make sure even in the afterlife that Telemachus doesn't find peace.
When Penelope is singing "Waiting" to Odysseus, there are 7 waitings. One waiting for each saga he was away from home, and it lasts 20 seconds, each second representing a year he was gone.
But there were 8 sagas he was away from home? Troy, cyclops, ocean, Circe, underworld, thunder, wisdom, vengeance
@exwhyzee_ he almost got it right here, she says waiting 7 times, ody says penelope twice for each time he hears or sees her in his mind, and its in order too!! The first two waitings are troy and cyclops, he then says penelope cause he hears her in storm (keep your friends close) waiting two more times for circle and underworld, then hears her in thunder (thunderbringer) and then three waitings for wisdom, vengance, and Ithaca, where she was waiting until song 40 where she finally reunites with him.
@@Shenningtatum you almost got it right here, when Odysseus first thinks of Penelope in Horse and the Infant, he says “Penelope, Telemachus”. Now I assume you’ll counter that with “ah but he says “Penelope, Telemachus” again in horse snd the infant making it two times”. This goes against your point because you’re expressing the *repeated* motif being “Penelope, Penelope”. Nice try though!
@exwhyzee_ nope I am still correct. It's the times he hears her voice. Sorry man hard L nice try though!!
It would have been an excellent point if you didnt misread what i said @exwhyzee_
Why aren't nobody talking about the "Am I dreaming once more?" line? It means she's been (constantly) dreaming about Odysseus returning home.
Damn, she really loves this monster... rawr rawr
YES!!! The fact that for 20 years she dreamed about recounting him in their own room after all that time to the point of not knowing if Odysseus ACTUALLY being there was true or an illusion is both precious and heartbreaking 😭💕
It's something that stuck out to me from Telemachus' song too, but him responding to Odysseus with 'Of course!' IMMEDIATELY flashed me back to when the Penelope!Siren responded to him with 'Of course!' too, like it's some sort of verbal tic he adopted from his mother 😢❤
Fitting that Gigi basically did the first animatics for epic (Horse and the Infant + Just A Man) and she gets to do the final animatic for Epic :')
Was intentionally done that way because as a whole gigi is alot of people's reasons they found epic so it's fitting gigs animatic finishes epic
I like to imagine that while Antonius is standing singing Hold Them Down Odysseus is stringing the bow, and at that final note he fires the shot through the axe heads into Antonius' throat.
"I kinda hate how I love this song" yes, that's the general reaction to Hold Them Down
Maybe my last round of fun facts. Strap in:
*The Challenge* - Of course, Penelope is an absolute queen, in all ways. She’s been weaving that shroud for years. Finally, she’s decided to give them a challenge, knowing they can’t accomplish it. There are different versions of how the bow is made/enchanted, but the gist is that only Odysseus can string it. Her line “I’d rather die than grow old without the best of you”, at first, sounds like it might mean she’d rather die than marry someone who can’t match her husband, but no. She’s saying, “Only my husband can do this. I’d rather die than marry one of you.”
And hearing _them_ sing Penelope, when we’d previously only heard Odysseus sing in love and longing for her. (Minus Zeus’ tiny bit from the beginning). It just. AAAHHH. Great song
*Hold Them Down* - in Ancient Greece, not having a body to bury is one of the worst things you could do. Having no body to find, meant Telemachus wouldn’t be able to pass into the afterlife. They wanted to ensure he would _never_ be able to rest, even in death.
While Antinous is singing about what he’ll do to Penelope, you can hear her instrument screaming in the background.
Side note, but I love that they had Wolfy animate Antonius’ death. They’re an OG Epic animator, and I always adore seeing them, especially since they got to take him out 👏
*Odysseus* - “Polyphemus”, “Scylla”, “Charybdis”, all the monsters he faced. The king came home and slaughtered just as they had. There are several references in the song. They’re chanting his name in the background in the same way Polyphemus’ name had been chanted, but it’s also a throwback to the souls’ chants in No Longer You. We also finally get Tiresias’ final prophecy- “kill all the suitors for love). Other references, we obviously have Scylla for the torches. The “No” after that suitor asked for mercy is a reference to Odysseus asking Poseidon for mercy during Get in the Water, and he also replied with a cold “No”.
When Telemachus first arrives we can hear a Quick Thought, our first hint that Athena is still alive. As her new warrior and friend, he is also dressed like Athena, which is very cool.
*I Can’t Help but Wonder* - “if I have your strength in me.” “The strength you hold within.” Odysseus told Telemachus he doesn’t need _his strength,_ because Telemachus has become a strong young man during his absence. “Capture wind and sky for you”, in a way he did with Aeolus and the storm. Odysseus sensing Athena was there showed just how close they had been. He knew she was watching without even seeing her. An overall beautiful and heartfelt song.
*Would You Fall in Love with Me Again* - he said “waiting for love”, not “waiting for me”. Odysseus knew there was a chance she wouldn’t accept him after everything. You can hear Poseidon’s trumpets/theme in the background when he says “left a trail of red on every island”. How he became ruthless.
The olive bed is the heart of the house. Odysseus met Penelope there, then built his entire palace around what he made for her. When she asked him to move it not only was it a test to see if he _knew that,_ but also if he was willing to literally uproot the start of their journey. The monster rises, his rage bubbling when she asked, but Penelope didn’t recoil. Our Spartan legend not only accepted him, but she _met him_ on the monster’s level. Odysseus was her husband, and he returned. Odysseus’ first words in the series are battle commands. His final are telling Penelope how much he loves her.
Epic is such an amazing experience, and I’m so ready for whatever they have in store next for it! (This has all just been _the concept album)._
Funny thing I haven't seen anyone talk about. Even though he's detailing his plan in front of the others, when Antinous says what he'll do to Telemachus' body, he says "only the ocean and I will know", indicating that he had been planning to get rid of the other suitors aswell.
@@thechadinyou339 That's a pretty blatant thing i feel. All of the suitors are competing for kingship, only one can win, something will have to happen to the others.
Might I add a little thing: in WYFILWMA, you can hear poseidon’s motif after “left a trail of red on every island”, but also Thunder Bringer after “as I traded friends like objects I could use” and Scylla’s ‘drown in your sorrows and fears’ after “hurt more lives than I can count on my hands”
Zeus doesn't even sing "Penelope", he pauses after "You can say goodbye to..."
@jordanlyons2609 Yeah, yet everyone that I've seen react to epic, me included, did not catch that. Did you catch it the first time? If yes, congrats. If not, why you saying it's blatant?
Something I really like about Would you fall in love with me again. is that Penelope cuts through all the self loathing and pity party bullshit. putting that image that Odysseus is now some warped, uncaring monster that men, gods and even Odysseus has placed on him.
her saying it's all nonsense and showing Odysseus himself that they're all wrong, that if he truly was that beast, that he wouldn't feel all this guilt, regret and pain. if he was just some monster he wouldn't care.
and the theme of just a man coming back is being used as something positive here because it's meant to remind Ody and us that he's just human who's hurt, and that he's 'Just a Man' and that's okay.
The entire premier, up until the Ithaca Saga, was a bunch of nerds reacting to their own work. Dancing, rowing. So many shenanigans. It’s grainy footage, but still hilarious, especially No Longer You. I don’t think Mason, the singer for Tiresias, had seen any animatics because each time he saw one he was baffled 😂
Just a Man was also HILARIOUS
@ * Puts the controller in Jay’s hand * _THIS IS THE SON OF NON OTHER THAT TROY’S VERY OWN PRINCE HECTOR!!_
I guess he doesn't saw that in the future
22:50 especially considering ares is also considered as "protector of women". Son of poseidon once "take her love and more" daughter of Ares...
Ares killed him in return saying "I don't care if you are son of Zeus".
he's not really a protector of women he just protects his daughters
@@qwerty_qwerty pretty sure hes protected women other than his daughters
I have a headcanon when it comes to the waiting melody Penelope sings throughout this Saga.
It made me think, as Jay was particular with whom to give motifs and lyricisms, making them theirs and iconic of their identities.
Waiting is supposed to be Ody's mom's. And though it's easy to attribute it to just two women Ody holds highest to his heart, my headcanon is that the very melody she is singing is the same melody Penelope and Ody's mom had been singing and consoling each other with as they await Ody's return.
So, in Ody's learning of the song in the underworld, not only is it a final show of love from Ody's mom to him, but also a love letter from Penelope across worlds, and across time.
Oh my god the idea of them singing it together consoling each other 😭 Why’d you do that to us nooo
One of my favorite parts at the end is if you listen to Odysseus' "Penelope" lines they are all filled with doubt... that fear of "am I to far gone to be loved"
And in contrast Penelope straight hard shuts that down not only claiming him as hers, but her waitings are very much a I love you, have always loved you and will always loved you and I've been here this whole time because I love you so get over here and let me love you
Ody and Penelope have the type of love we all should strive for
Hold Them Down is one of the best villain songs I've heard in a long time. Great video!
It's so funny watching people react and realize that one of the best songs in the show is unfortunately about murdering the prince and molesting the queen. Everyone is just torn between loving it and being disgusted.
Molesting is quite the undersell but I imagine that's just so youtube doesn't strike your comment down
WhatitdoDave was vibing until Antinous mentioned killing Telemachus. He needed a breather
The thing about Penelope setting them up is that Odysseus supposedly had a recurve 500 pound bow. Even an 80 or 100 pound bow is an incredibly difficult thing to string, if you've never done it before, and don't have someone helping. Odysseus, dressed as a beggar, did it on his own, and the shot that slew the leader of the suitors went through the twelve axes before striking that scumbag's throat.
Also... the singer for Antinous originally audition for --Poseidon-- Tiresias the Prophet, but Jorge knew an even better role for how villainous his voice could become, clearly.
In the original Odyssey, Athena was in the rafters, nudging the suitors weapons just barely off target to tip the scales in Odysseus, Telemachus and Odysseus's father's favor, while all the staff were told in advance to hide and ignore all sounds from what would be happening. Then after the suitors were handled, the three sorted through the staff for those who had been faithful or who had somehow been aiding the suitors, etc, and those who were faithful were spared joining the suitors' fate.
As for the red eyes, that happened when he did 600 Strikes on Poseidon, and then tortured him with his own trident. That was the moment he fully accepted being the monster, because even after Scylla, he tried to protect his men to keep them from killing --Apollo's-- Helios's cows, and trying to be gentler with Calypso when he finally could leave her island. But after Poseidon, all that was left were the suitors, and both Poseidon and them were worthy of the wrath used upon them.
ayron did not originally audition for poseidon he was auditioning for tiresias the prophet
@everettjoseph6189 really? I had read on two other videos it was for Poseidon. But, I guess I didn't hear it from him, Jorge, or the other cast members.
Helios not Apollo btw
@@jackierabbit Ah, yes. I was going off Epic: The Musical having Apollo show up, but forgot the Greek Pantheon has multiple sun gods, and that it was indeed Helios in The Odyssey.
This has been quite the odyssey, hasn't it? I'm going to miss this series.😢 I'm glad you enjoyed it. You truly are one of us.
Me too 😢
Remember, this is the *concept* album, it isnt the end yet
This might be a little evil, but "I Can't Help But Wonder" always makes me laugh a little bit. Not the song itself, it's incredibly tender and sweet, but like... They haven't left the room yet. I can't help but picture them having this beautiful moment still streaked with gore and surrounded by bodies. Just completely ignoring all the murder that just happened (which, reminder, is ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHT PEOPLE). Which is exactly the amount of respect the suitors deserve LMAO. Good for them
YOU REALLY ARE ONE OF US
ONE OF US!
ONE OF US!
One of us
ONE OF US
ONE OF US ‼️
The comment about Ares somewhere giggling and kicking his feet is even more apt as Ares was also known as the protector of women. He totally would have been like, "I think he can have a little more battle juice, here you go king", lol
The first thing I always like to point out, because most don't seem to realize it: Ody is likely in his mid to late 40s during these events. He was an established King during the games for Helen's hand which is where he convinced Helen's Father to put in a good word for him with Penelope's Father by coming up with the "We will fight for Helen's husband should any take her." The man had been worried a war could start over her (I guess he was right...). Then he and Penelope got married and had Telemachus. 10 years of war, 10 years to return home. At youngest I'd put him at 43 or so but 46 sounds more reasonable.
Odysseus had a Palintonous (might have spelled that wrong) Bow, which means it's a Recurve Bow. Recurve Bows, when unstrung, bend in the opposite direction of the Archer when held and require a special technique to string. There is no brute forcing the bow, you don't know how you won't be stringing it.
Telemachus was already old enough to become King... unfortunately he had no backers so a coup d'etat would likely have happened.
17:42 "Truly becoming the monster": Yep, that's why the song is Titled "Odysseus"... only monsters get a song *titled* after them.
Fun fact! Axe heads in those days had a hole in the center, and I've seen at least one interpretation that says the bow is a recurve bow, which needs a stringer to avoid damaging either the bow, the person stringing it, or both. Also, the shot that killed Antinous also completed the challenge. Just thought that was cool.
I am pretty sure it's the handle hole which is being referenced there. Not some fancy hole, but where the shaft would go.
@ I’ve seen people say it’s the hole you use to hang the axes on the wall, and that seems reasonable enough for me. It’s the version the MythBusters went with, if that counts for anything. But I have seen axe heads with holes in them, and that’s possible too.
@@alexandersean4708 For the recurve bow thing, that's more based on the description of what the bow was like in the Odyssey. I don't think it was ever called such
@jordanlyons2609 That’s good to know. Thanks.
Btw if you listen closely in Hold Them Down you can hear Oddy in the background vocals. It's super subtle and you need really good headphones/buds to hear him.
the vocals i haven’t caught but you can pinpoint the exact second ody shoots his arrow too (right before it lands the blow to the throat / right at the start of the last “soul”). also need really good earphones for that
Omg I've been WAIIIIITIIIIIING for this reaction!
Also I wonder if you've noticedat 33:43 when Odysseus says "left a trail of red on every island" there's the melody for "ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves". And then for "as I've traded friends like objects I could use" there's "Thunder bringer". And then I assume for "hurt more lives than I can count on my hand" is "drown in sorrows and fears" from scylla.
There's so many Easter eggs in this entire saga, really looking forward to all the animatics this is gonna have.
Once again thanks for the reaction ❤❤❤
Also yess yess yess to alien stage plsssssss
The “hurt more lives” part is followed by the melody of “I’m not sorry for loving you” as he’s referencing a life he’s hurt, not a person he’s killed
I was waiting for her to hear that!!!
@@zjmiller6627 okay valid point tho and yes that could be one way to interpret it. But its not just hurting A life it's hurting more lives than he could count on his hand so technically sacrificing six ppl to scylla or it could also be "there is no price he won't pay" from mutiny. Your comment made me think who else did he hurt and it was also his friends on that last remaining ship, following scylla. But it could be Calypso's not sorry for loving you, if we look into it as what happens chronologically song wise: ruthlessness, thunder bringer, not sorry for loving you.
You know one thing I haven't seen anyone talk about is that Odysseus loves Penelope so much he didn't even think of lying to her about the things he'd done. He simply loved and respected her too much for that.
3:20 the instant “yeah it’s him he’s back”
It's ridiculous how long it felt to wait for you to react to this saga. Thank you 🙏😁😁
Wanna hear something even darker? In THAT part of "Hold them Down" we hear Penelope's instrument playing the melody of the NOOOOOOO scream that Odysseus yelled when the bag is open. So we are hearing musically Penelope screaming "no" in sorrow while THAT part of the song is being sung.
5:09 classic Greek impossible task cuz I don’t wanna deal with this rn
I mean a challenge that ody can easily do lol
Oh also, in Would you still fall in love with me again, is a commonly held belief in the community that Penelope sings waiting 8 times (including the oh at the end) to show that she waited for 8 sagas to see him. That and she sings “For” at the end in Odysseus’s motif as he has been singing her name in her motif the entire musical. Also also, when Ody sings about all the things he’s done, the motif of a particular song will play. Like “Left a trail of red on every island” the motif for Ruthlessness will play. After “traded friends like objects I could use” the motif for Thunder Bringer plays
She Sings it 7 times….
@@loganhemin4818 Yeah I have no idea how this keeps being repeated when IT'S ONLY SEVEN
"I don't care how, where, or when, You're Mine."
That line, and her implied ownership over his heart, which we've seen proven true time and time again throughout this musical, and her dedication to that,
That line always makes me tear up. It's visceral, it's lovely.
Fun fact: The "diplomatic mission" was Telemachus searching for his dad where if memory serves me right he asks Odysseus's crew who split up with him after the trojan horse.
A bit of background on the cast of "Odysseus"
-Eurymachus. (The guy trying Open Arms)
This guy is the leader of the suitors alongside Antinous. He himself is the favored candidate by Penelope's brothers and father (and I think Telemachus too as he calls him a God amongst men at some point) Eurymachus is rich charismatic and gives lavish gifts. He's also deceitful though and like the other suitors he breaks the rules of hospitality. He endorses Antinous' plan of killing Telemachus even though he pretends to be Odysseus' bff from back in the day (he uses this claim to buddy up to Telemachus) and he's also sleeping with Penelope's personal slave/handmaiden wich is how he finds out about the ruse with the shroud she's weaving. When the massacre starts he throws all the blame on Antinous and begs for mercy. It does not help him.
-Amphinomus. (The dude who got stabbed by Telemachus in the weapons room)
Actually a straight-up fellow. He tries to win Penelope's hand by genuinely being a nice man. If she has to pick one he's the preference. Ampinomus is the suitor who veto's Antinous' "Let's kill the Prince" plan. And when Odysseus enters the palace disguised as a beggar Amphinomus warns him that it's getting dangerous there and that he should probably leave. Odysseus tries to warn him about the approaching massacre but Athena compells him to stay (he's still a suitor so for her he has to die) sort of tragically he gets killed by Telemachus whom he had prevented the murder of.
-Melanthius. (the guy calling the suitors to jump on Telemachus)
He's not actually a suitor but Odysseus' "disloyal" goatherd (also a slave but different times and all that) he serves the suitors now and provides them the best meat I think? He's afforded a place at their table anyway and he's meant as a contrast to Odysseus' "loyal" swineherd/slave who helps him infiltrate the palace. Melanthius survives the suitor massacre but gets horrifically maimed by Telemachus and others after, his nose gets cut off, his hands too I think, it's all rather gruesome.
I would literally sob if you watched any of STARKID, I love them so much! So happy you got to finish EPIC on the channel, it’s been great to watch!
40:42 - "And that Telemachus is how I reunited with your mother"
Odysseus and Penelope's relationship is so wholesome! They've both been through so much over the last 20 years and so they deserve to be happy together for the rest of their lives!
Fun fact! In original myth Telemachus vouchs for the good nature of 2 suitors (of the 108), yet ody still left a pile of 108 in his wake
I mean at least one of those was Athena's doing. Odysseus tried to warn Amphinomus because he's actually a stand-up guy. Athena just compells him to stay because he's still a suitor and Telemachus ends up chucking a javelin through his abdomen wich is ironic as Amphinomus was the one suitor to constantly veto Antinous' "let's kill Telemachus" plan.
I swear, Aryon Alexander (Antinous) has the most stunning voice I've ever heard.
Something really cool is the final animation is done by Gigi. Which for most people, including me, Gigi's animation of the Horse and the Infant was their introduction to Epic the Musical. Even includes the signature Gigi spin.
i've been waitiinnnggg for this so desperately
I believe when he says “my mercy has long since drowned, it died to bring me home” is that a call back to when he fought Poseidon? Because in get in the water, he technically “drowned” and then from then forth he’s had red eyes. If it is, that’s a really cool touch by Jorge😯
I can only imagine Telemachus and Odysseus bonding over cleaning up the corpses, getting into a pillow fight with dismembered limbs
One thing people have noticed about "Odysseus": at 17:34, you can hear the chorus chanting his name ominously. Just like they did for Polyphemus.
14:29 You'll be glad to know Antinous's VA sings other songs and unlike his character, he's a total dorky goofball and we love that for him!! He's amazing!!
"I am going to thurouly enjoy it!" During Suffering was a fantastic line! One I wholeheartedly agree with. Someone else was talking about it, and they didn't understand how I could be so excited at the Suitors' deaths, like, 'Odyssey became a monster, that's not something be be excited about!' But like, seriously, not a single one of the suitors spoke up against sa, not one defended her. If Ody is a monster, I want one to protect me like that.
Penelope: Ody, sweetie, my father was a Spartan. His big toe is more monstrous than you.
I love the part when Odysseus starts telling Penelope what he did, the melody in the background was Ruthlessness 😭
It's actually three melodies after the other.
"Left a trail of red on every island"= Ruthlessness
"While I traded friends like objects I could use" = Thunder Bringer
"Hurt more lives than I can count on my hands" = Not Sorry For Loving You.
11:10 to make it worse, cutting up his body and throwing him deep in the ocean means his soul may not make it to the afterlife as it would be scattered and buried
32:39 Just noticed, she KNOWS he's different, she said it herself, and then she called him "my love", she's already established that its still him even though he's darker
“He’s just a man… who’s finally made it home… even after all the years he’s spent from what he knows he’s just a man…” are some lyrics I seen a fan made for the ending of Wyfilwma
“Whos finally made it home” is a syllable too long. I suggest “Who finally gets home” especially since the original lyric says “trying to *get* home”
22:50 Ares is definitely watching all of this unfold with a bag of snacks. No questions asked. He asked for a bloodbath, he got a bloodbath.
10:26 I hear today is Telemachus's birthday
And I hear today he comes back to town so
I say we gather near the beaches
@@samsydney6666I say we wait til he arrives
I'll slip away while you all distract him
@ellapowell1316 I'll slip away
7:00 the build up to hearing her sing made it even better
Can you imagine Poseidon’s reaction to Telemachus being scattered in the ocean after the beating he just took from his dad!??? Like no thank you, hey Oddy I swear I had no hand in this thank you!!
If you rewatch the livestream, I would also watch the cast's reactions at the end; it was so sweet, emotional, and amazing.
So Penelope’s challenge isn’t actually impossible, it’s just that the only one that could pass it would be Odysseus. She’s either getting someone who’s at the same level of her husband or nothing and I love this woman! Great video and now we wait for the Cut Songs Saga 😂
Before I listen to the video I just wanna say it has been a fun journey listening to your reactions. You have a great personality
In the end of the final song, I love how Penelope sings "Waiting" eight times for eight sagas without Odysseus, minus the nineth saga where Ody returns! I also love the Ruthlessness and Thunderbringer Motifs popping up when Ody tells Penelope of the things he's done!
2 suitors noped out the moment they heard the treason, they survived.
Before watching the whole vid I can confidently say that... It'll make you cry. LOVE YA QUEEN!! ❤🎉
3:15 missed opportunity to say “loyal royals”
fun fact: in will you fall in love with me again waiting is sung 7 times and penelope twice, in order of the nine sagas. waiting for when ody was away penelope for when he was almost home! so that would be: waiting (troy saga), waiting (cyclops saga) penelope (right before opening the bag in keep your friends close- ocean saga), waiting (circe saga), waiting (underworld saga), penelope (after scylla they were very close to ithaca- thunder saga), waiting (wisdom saga), waiting (vengeance saga) waiting (most of the ithaca saga) oh (will you fall in love with me again, when they finally meet again). soooo yeah jay is a lyrical genius
For athena and odysseus encounter it makes so much sense cause this time their goodbye was on good terms cause it would be hypocritical if after all of what he has done he cant embrace the open arms so he cant be her warrior anymore ❤ i love that this time it was a gentle goodbye with no hard feelings
"Left a trail of red on every island" (ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves)
"As I traded friends like objects I could use" (thunder bringer)
"Hurt more lives than I can count on my hands" (why in the world won't you love me too)
Bonus: the melody of Penelope's "for" in "for you" is the same as the crew's "woah"s in Remember Them and Different Beast, in the sections right before Odysseus's name is said.
*Ares with popcorn* Ares: DAMN ATHENA WASN'T KIDDING ABOUT THE BLOODSHED!! *cutely giggles and kicks his feet*
22:50 not only is Ares kicking his feet for the bloodshed, but also WHO Ody is slaughtering. Ares kinda gets the rep as evil guy in media, but he’s one of the few good Gods in mythology. When a son of Poseidon attempted to rape one of Ares daughters, Ares killed the son. When he was brought to court by the other Gods, he was acquitted. That added with other details in his mythology, he’s among the most feminist icons in my opinion.
There's a cut song between young Oddy and Athena about asking Athena to help him getting Penelope but sadly it's so short. I wish Jorge can release the cut Saga aka the Lost Saga. There are so many interesting song I'd like to listen to in the saga
I believe that was from the old version when the illiad was gonna be part of it.
39:11 I love that the last reprise of the show is the instrumental of “Just a Man” after Ody and Penelope reunite, showing that all of this, even his “monster” side, happened because he’s just a man
Also, THAT MIU SHIRT?! OMG YOU LOOK GORGEOUS 😭❤
Something that makes the part about Penelope in hold them down even more disturbing is that you can hear a viola in the background, which the viola being penelopes instrument it portrays kinda like penelope screaming and to me it just makes it even worse😭
"Only the ocean and I will know"
Poseidon be like: "NO- I AM DONE WITH THIS FAMILY-"
I love how Eury was like "hey yeah..... Sooo you killed Antinous ... I didn't have anything to do with this so... You should forgive the rest of us with open arms and let us leave" Buddy, no that's not how that works.
He literally went “Odysseus, Ody, buddy Your majesty, We can talk about this.”
@Taizu314 😂🤣
He was the worst suitor too 😂
We now have a fully formed winion
I have been binging these videos since the day after the release party---you're the first one I've seen who caught the true meaning of the Just A Man outro. Thank you
Penelope had to hear Odysseus' mother singing "waiting" OR Odysseus' mother picked up the waiting tone FROM PENELOPE. of course they would sync up.
Hold them down is like hellfire. The Vocals are amazing, but the song makes you sick
In the story no one could string odysseus's bow because it was a recurve bow and they literally didn't know how it worked
ayron alexander first auditioned for Tiresias as well :D great video as usual!
The funny thing is Antinious is the only antagonist who is human but has no humanity in him all the other antagonist are either monsters, gods, and goddesses have some humanity in them except the only human
Sad fact: during ‘Hold them down’ while Antinious is expressing what he plans to do to Penelope you can hear a Viola which is her instrument almost like a substitute for her screams
Antinious: only the ocean and I will know!
Poseidon: Hell no! Leave me out of this!
Antinious died as he lived pathetically
Odysseus strategy he learned
Block/lock any exits like Polyphemus
Disarm his opponents like Circe
Hide in the dark and aim for the torches like Scylla
Leave nothing to chance like Poseidon
Odysseus became the monster
One amazing detail about ‘Would You Fall in Love with Me Again’ is that when Odysseus is getting outraged over the idea of cutting down the tree their bed is built around the music swaps his more gentle guitar for the electric guitar that represents his monster, and when Penelope responds instead of changing to her signature viola it keeps going with the guitar. Because in this moment Penelope is matching Odysseus' ferocity with her own, not merely accepting the monster in him but staring it down on equal footing and daring him to keep saying it's something she would fear or that could change a thing about how much she loves him. I saw people in other videos getting worried when Odysseus got mad at Penelope, but that's the whole point. She wants him to get mad. She's trying to show him that he's still the same person in the ways that matter, because only her husband would care enough about the bed to get angry with her. Like she said *“Only my husband knew that! So I guess that makes him you! I will fall in love with you over and over again I don't care how, where, or when. No matter how long it's been, you're mine! Don't tell me you're not the same person! You're always my husband and I've been waiting!”* The red eyes don't vanish. They just dim slightly as he is feeling hope… but what was done cannot be undone. He is a veteran that has gone through trauma, and that PTSD will always follow him, as well as his actions, and that is what the entire point of The Odyssey is about. Tragic events change people so they aren't who they were before… however, that adds shields and pain around who they used to be, it doesn't erase that past, or the path to the present. Empathy, sympathy, and compassion can help ease those burdens, but never take them away fully. And if someone ever were to ignore their own misdeeds, that would be more monstrous than anything Odysseus still feels guilt and grief about. The suitors, on the other hand, well, no need to feel guilty there, as they were about to create tragic events themselves, and far worse than most along Odysseus's journey… without the justification of everything he had gone through to get to that point.
I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS. Best part of watching the live stream is that it shows how much telemachus changed from the boy who got his ass kicked to a boy who is fending off so many opponents at once and even cutting them down.
A cool detail is that in the song, hold them down. While they were singing and plotting, Odysseus stung his old bow, and he flexed on them.
I’VE BEEN WAITING, WAITING FOR THIS!!!
15:00 Ayron Alexander voices Antinous
Fun Fact: He also voices Perimedes
Another reason for the challenge is that the suitors were on the verge of revolting and forcing her to choose one of them, so the impossible challenge was to buy time for herself and for Ody to come
Also the way Antinous would kill Telemachus, it would leave him with no way to cross the River Styx and enter the afterlife
Also I personally headcannon that Ody knew Athena was helping Telemachus, due to recognizing the armour
love how in the edit u say ares is somewhere in olympus kicking his feet, cause a popular theory is that ares was with odysseus in this saga like how athena was with telemachus because odysseus has red eyes during the animatics and he's clearly much more rageful and driven by anger which is what ares does to the people he helps, he makes them a better fighter by making them rage
23:07 imagine you were just a guy for some reason walking around the palace around the time ody gets back and seen as a suitor-
also in one version ody is killing suitors butt naked - I’ll tell y’all why if I feel like it :p