FFXIV Dawntrail is a test...
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
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Hello everyone I am Jmulls of Jmulls Gaming and welcome to my little corner of the internet!
Walkthroughs, First Impressions, Critique and Reviews for all things video games, by someone who loves video games!
In today's video, I talk about my opinions on what Square Enix were aiming for with Final Fantasy 14 Dawntrail !
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OF YOUR REFLEXES!
you get the pinned comment for that 🤣🤣🤣
I HAVE YOU @@JMulls
I wish any of the characters I met si far were as fun as Zenos
I miss Zenos....
I scrolled down just to find this message. Lmfao!
Wuk Lamat: "We're going to beat you with the power of Friendship!"
Me, MCH Main: "And this gun I found!"
Lol
Warrior Main :"And my axe!"
@@PuyochaGaming Viper main: "any my swords"
Also Viper hitting Reawaken: My ancestors are smiling at me, Alexandrian. Can you say the same?
PCT : and this picture 🖼️
I loved Koana, they should have build a story around the scions helping out Koana on his journey, the guy had a fraction of Wuks screen time and so much more development in spite of it.
I was more invested in Erenville, Krile and Gulool Ja Ja than any other character in the story. Just my 5 cents
I think everyone was expecting an equally distributed story telling on those characters but what we were given were all just an over focus on Wuk Lamat, even when she wasnt even necessary in the scenes or story part
I wish Krile would take that hood off already. Her hair was nice to look at and then the hood came back on 🙄 Every character has changed their clothes except for her
After the MSQ, I understand why Hydaelyn didn't have a rescue plan for Tural at End Walker.
lol
My first question.. What happened there during the events of EW? Why didnt they start there? UGH..
@@TheOnlySWilliamsim guessing that the towers and therefor the end of days was something they didnt know about, its said sadu in one of the cutscenes that not a single tower appeared in in the azim steppe despite some appearing near kugane, so i can be assumed that not everywhere in the world even knew what happened so maybe tural was one of those places
@@Nihonguy You have to admit thats a pretty big hole. Not one question, or lead on it. I had guessed the same thing you did. Thats an obvious guess for sure. There are alot of excuses being passed out when they even admit they didnt know exactly where they were going with it. I love the rest of the story just not DT.
@@TheOnlySWilliams I hated that. No one explained to you what happened there in the Final days
My favorite part of the story was the last fight where she says you are the most dangerous and sends everyone else away, but then they screw it up by having you know who show up in the end to save the day.
Omg lmao I face palmed when she showed up like god damn you couldn't let us just have this one 😂
During the fight on my first clear, I actually typed "On look, she's getting the Capt Marvel Endgame treatment" it actually irritated me
While also making her shouting cause a deleted memory file to be restored. I think they want us to laugh with Wuk for being so brain-empty, but its really just annoying. Mostly because the moral lessons she is learning are lessons we've already learned in the story, and in a much more serious way.
@@lastdayer101When she popped out I just dropped my rotation and complained in chat. I hate that character. Such terrible writing.
Yeah it didn't land with me either (the fight itself tho was absolutely stellar) but I kind of get why they brought her in to do that cause they've done similar things for the last couple final trials of expac launches
Everyone has to act uncharacteristically stupid in order for the plot to move forward from start to finish including your own character the WoL and its usually in service to whatever Wuk Lamat wants and frustratingly it almost always works out for her in the end.
This is gonna irk me every time I think about this expac. How did we learn about Levin Sickness and not *immediately* go “Ayo, queenie! We actually got a cure for that. Want me to let you in on the secret?”
It's not fun. I don't like Wuk Lamat or the overly blatant 'friendship uber alles' themes. I vote we bring back some finesse and subtlety in storytelling. If I stick around it's more for the endgame content and the dungeon puzzles, not Wuk Lamat
I know that i certainly dont want that everything gets overshadowed by one single character again, especially than that character overshadows the characters i actually care about.
This as well, the Scions largely just felt kind of there, I kind of get why since most of their stories largely wrapped up, but they felt underutilized imo
Here's the thing, though. If you look at Wuk Lamat's character, you can see how they tried to make you care about her. Her insecurities are supposed to make you want to support and cheer for her. Her sea sickness and not wanting to admit it is supposed to be cute and adorable. As well as some other things. If you look around, it clearly works. Some people love the character. Those people probably did find her adorable and wanted to support her and cheer her on. For many others, though, they failed. Some, like myself, were never roped in by those attempts. For others, she simply overstayed her welcome. Others couldn't stand her voice. I play with Japanese audio, do that was never an issue for me. But I think the overall all problem is that they tried to force her on us and tried to force us to like her. And it was too much, too fast, and too poorly done. So much so that it had the opposite affect for many people.
@@Mitheledh this. it was too much, too fast. they tried to do what like half of Stormblood's entire expansion did, patches and all, in a single msq run: build Wuk to be a decent likeable character and competent leader like with Lyse. And it didn't help that her English voice is just bad. Like no sugarcoating it, it's straight up PS1/ early PS2 levels of mediocre. Idk if her voice director didn't even try or they ran out of time, but I would have her re-voice the entire script. But that's beside the point. They tried bluntly to make you like her. She has her charms and quirks that I find enjoyable, and her Japanese voice makes more sufferable. But not enough to get comfortable with her. They have many, many patches over time so you can digest her and get used to her. Idk why they compressed it into one patch.
I don't think the scions should continue on.. like we're supposed to be "disbanded' but we're not
First half could be summarized as “we heard you like beast tribe quests, so here’s 6 at the same time.” Which is fine for getting to know the world and grow Wuk’s character. But my god, the amount of splinter cell 14 and fetch quests…. And unvoiced cutscenes…
"Alexa, play Machinations while this unvoiced cutscene rolls please"
My favorite part was definitely the first half of Zone 4. Finally we got rid of Wuk Lamat and our WoL was doing meaningful things again, like picking up poop 👍
I would have really liked the cowboy zone personally if I wasn't constantly wanting to see what was on the otherside of the city of gold door they mega teased us with lol. It was nice to just have an adventure for an adventure's sake and not some ulterior reason
The zone 4 is exactly what I pictured as going on an adventure. Not report to wuk lamat, talk to wuk lamat, walk with wuk lamat, cure wuk lamat of sea sickness and etc. Screw that. We're playing FF14, you the WoL as the driving force. Not FF14: adventures with wuk lamat.
@@JMulls oh 100%, I was down with all the worldbuilding and stuff even if we were hand-cuffed to wuk lamat for the first 3 zones, but the tease and just nah lets just leave was when I stopped caring. Also gotta love that we have had Gosetsu getting shot multiple times, Graha getting shot in the back, multiple instances of shooting in this game, an entire class using a gun.. but the american wild west uses rubber bullets lol
The WoL is not the main character anymore.
The Warrior of light and Erenville on a buddy cop adventure sounds like a fun story, especially since zone 4 gave basically equal spotlight time for both
I went from being disgusted by Wuk Lamat, to the. Liking her, and then disliking her character by the end of the MSQ…it felt like they are trying build powerful faction leaders like in WoW….it doesn’t work in FF14 when they made it clear for 10 years that ur avatar is the MC.
2nd story should have been Koana's journey. Take the lessons he's learned from his sister and move him to be a better Vow of Reason. It makes sense to the Vow of Reason face off against the Queen of Reason.
2nd arc should've been all about Krile and Eren Yeager, Woke lament should've stayed in the palace and never seen again.
@@jackjohnson8305yeah she's so woke bro 🙄🤡
I completely agree. I remember hearing from someone that Wuk Lamat's character is too overloaded, and trying to fulfill too many roles, plot developments, and character archetypes all at once. I think Wuk Lamat should have stepped aside more often to let the other characters shine, and this is coming from someone that really likes her. Would have really loved to see Koana get the chance he deserved to prove himself by taking down Sphene. I'm still holding out hope for the patches to flesh everything else out, honestly even Stormblood's patches were kinda good ngl.
I appreciate your cope, but I think the first half of DT's story is bad because it was just written horribly. If it was truly a test they wouldn't have made it so unnecessarily long either. They could have just done chill shorter stories in a more HW/SB length MSQ, DT has no business being nearly as long as EW. (For reference, HW and SB had around 10 hours of cutscenes, EW and DT are both around 20 hours of cutscenes).
Hence the testing out to see how people react so it is a test.
@@PrincessofKeys not a test from the game itself
I think the major flaw of the first part of dawntrail was they didn't fully commit to the contest aspect of it. I really do think we should have been paired with zoraal ja during second last keystone trial getting to learn more of who he was instead of having it all tossed out at the last second. It was a real missed opportunity to not fight thancred and urianger it would have made for a fun plot device. All and all the expansion was okay nothing to write home about but not terrible IMO. If I had to compare to anything it would be stromblood but I think a more fair comparison is A realm reborn due to the fact both are supposed to be the first chapters in a new story.
The actual test was how they handled the contest more than the contest it's self thought he wanted to see who would exhibit the leadership qualities he wanted in a successor
As a writer and worked with other writers, you are right: this is a test. There are times when the creator of a story says, "Put A Fork In It, I'm Done", but sometimes a contract comes up from an investor, editor, boss or even fan demand that forces said creator to continue The story even though they said it's done. They will never admit it to the public because of a contract and maybe they will never say it no matter what. So in order to continue it, they end up posting a last minute story with plot holes and such which we all know as a "Filler Episode" to throw ideas at the wall to see what sticks. As we all saw by the results, looks like the First half didn't work and to be brutality honest, the second half has its issues, but a good number of it has already done in previous expansions and yet it still works; however we need to see what the Post-Dawntrail Story will bring in order to find out on what the writers will decide for the future of the game by listening to our feedback.
While I do think the two halves of Dawntrail are intentionally different, I'm not entirely sure it was a "test" from the developers about how it would be received. It seemed to be more about setting up the ideals of Wuk Lamat before changing gears drastically to greater highlight the contrast between the two halves. Sphene seems to be a very deliberate foil to Wuk Lamat, as they seem to hold the same principles/ideals but are forced into very different situations; with Sphene in particular being a tragic character with the classic fatal flaw coming from a place with good intentions.
It could also be some brute-force plot de-escalation, using the excuse of Wuk Lamat being the protagonist (for the time being) to get away from the "save the world" stuff. It's kind of like a Hildibrand-lite questline (remember, the WoL takes a backseat during those as well), if not quite as dense & wacky to better fit in with the rest of the main story.
Still, the lukewarm and occasionally contested reception is feedback they'll likely take into account for the game going forward.
People want more of the more nuanced (and often darker) storytelling often featured in ShB and EW.
Even then, the WoL has been taking a more active role in Hildebrand recently. For example, we played Vollyball with a live bomb or Blitzball kicking Lugae's head. Even played baseball by using a enlarged frying pan as a bat. Honestly wouldn't mind seeing more of that side of the WoL in the MSQ.
Everything with Wuk Lamat was a failure, and the first 2/3 of the story were so basic, I’d have expected it from a high schooler writing their first fanfic.
The second half had TONS of promise. Existential horror with moral ambiguity is where FF shines-no other MMO has been able to pull of a story with that kind of nuance.
I enjoyed the right of succession, thing is that becoming the dawnservant should be end of Wuk Lamat story.
100% agreed. I know a lot of people think the first half of the story is "boring" but IMO it was exactly what I signed up for in terms of a low-stakes adventure. Of course, I didn't want the whole expansion to be that so I was relieved that at the half way point Wuk Lamat's adventure seemed to be wrapped up and we'd be able to get involved in something quite different. Only problem is, while the story did take a twist, they kept Wuk Lamat as the focal point again... the entire time. Despite the Scions and co being WAY better equipped to deal with the situation. I mean, I'm not against Wuk Lamat coming but... why is she leading again? Why is everything framed completely around her?
Power of understanding.... She was adamant to kill her brother, she knew her whole life but never knew whats really going on in his mind and never cared to find out. So no understanding for her own brother. He has to die because he is bad. Sphene - manipulative, complicit in killing her people, willing to sacrifice every single life on the source: "She's nice. She just wants to protect her people. Just like me". Wait what???
like zoraal would of been open to talking about it anyway 🙄
Personally I don't mind if they want to make a more light hearted story.
But God, just write it well.
Wuk Lamat is just annoying.
They could've written like zone 4, but we got a shonen anime lol
THIS. I wanted a chill and light story but still made for adults with good character moments but man this is just a poorly written story for preteens.
I'd be really interested to know which writers worked on which parts of the story. I feel like toward the second half they just threw Sorrows of Werlyt guy in there and were like "ok, now do your thing"
"....But make sure the WoL has to clear every step with Wuk Lamat first. Can't be letting the WoL think they're important again."
This whole expansion is literally based on pokemon and nobody can convince me otherwise. We even have badges and freaking TEAM ROCKET!
I loved the first half, actually. I felt the focus on Wuk Lamat in the first half made plenty of sense; none of this was really a threat to us, and our purpose was really to support Wuk, not to take the spotlight ourselves. To help her grow into a leader. It's slow, yes, but I never minded how slow it was because it felt like I was taking a vacation. I think that worked really well, and I also like the themes of the second half. Honestly I think a blend or ramp up like this could work.
Where I think things failed was Wuk Lamat continuing to be the MC in the second half, starting at, like you said, the attack on Tuliyollol. THAT is when the WoL should have stepped in and taken charge of the RAPIDLY ESCALATING situation.
If they had let Wuk fade into the background to a degree after the rite of succession, and even more so after trial 2, to instead focus on Krile and Erenville I think the story would have been amazing.
I felt like it makes sense for her to continue to be the focus into the second half this is her first big test of leadership and it's our job to support her through that and step in when she asks for it
@@BlazingLion2010 I just feel like that "test of leadership" went out the window when Galool Ja Ja was killed. Like at that point, when Zoraal Ja got up from being dead, it was clear that Wuk was in over her head and it should have switched to "This is a world-ending thread, therefor WoL takes charge". Before the stakes were so low comparatively, we could afford to not step in unless needed.
I think they had the perfect pacing with the EW. It started out things pretty quick, then it calms down in Elpis before bringing the intensity back up at the end of it. I enjoyed DT, but the 2nd half is by far better and I could relate more to Sphene than others. This issue lies in I think the villain of Sphene was revealed so late. We should be meeting her much earlier on. The Rite part of the story should have been half of what it was. 2 zones, upper and lower in each. With maybe Mamook being in the 3rd zone we enter from below and the top part dealing with another small story leading into the Sphene stuff. Shaaloani felt misplaced and was more there to set up the next part with Sphene and had no real story impact.
Though it was a bit slow, everything leading up to the Skydeep Cenote made the dungeon hit sooo hard.
Loved that dungeon
I think the MC things comes down to whether you like the character or not. With an ensemble cast, if you dont like someone, you have other people you can care about and get to shine. In DT, it's the Wuk Lamat story. Everyone might give her tips, but I found myself asking all the time, "Why is anybody but her even here right now". And then anytime the party gets split up you ALWAYS get paired with her. My favorite part of the succession story was actually when you got to work together with Koana's team. I just couldn't stand how dorky and awkward she was so it ruined alot of the story for me because shes the main character. Its not that I wasnt its that the one they chose i didnt like.
I want to add to this. I think Zero was the test on "the WoL and Scions" being side characters to support a new original character and Wuk Lamat was the result.
Possibly, but I also just think Zero was a better character who will play a more important role down the line whereas I can't see Wuk Lamat being that major of a character past Dawntrail. I think with Zero, it helps that her development comes off the backs of zones and stories we already did so she sees the results of our actions and they do her development like that which I personally liked if a bit slowly paced at times
@JMulls zero was also a clean slate infact she was suppost to feel odd and out of place. While she learned new stuff she also reclaimed her memories
Zero sucked. She felt like an edgy OC written by a high schooler.
Yeah I agree jt so going around learning what it means to be alive fits way more than us babysitting a sheltered princess who is supposed to be the ruler but apparently knows nothing of her own people
Zero was more like Zoraal Ja, she had swag about her and power of hot charater design and Wuk Lamat idk she's just boring at every aspect
So I've seen people say this before, but I actually really enjoyed the last zone. Especially if they start a morally grey story line for the WoL. Like I kinda really started to question if we were really the good guys there in that zone, and it was a different feeling to always being the hero, always being morally right. This time around, while we were still in the right, it felt like it was drawing way closer to that morally grey line than they have before.
Yeah i'll go more into this in my review of Dawntrail, but I really like the last zone, very similar in structure to Ultima Thule narratively but with a nice twist imo
This is a story about loss and the effects on people, the Bad guys are the ones incapable of leaving things behind, it sounds cruel but thats life for you
@@user-ku8yi5to4f I understand the theme they are going for. But would you not agree that erasing the last monuments to history is bad? And that’s what I mean. Like I never really felt the whole loss aspect they were going for, I was slapped in the face by the fact that we are effectively erasing history. And as I said, we had our justification to do it, but I didn’t feel righteous in this mission like I have in the other final zones in ff14.
I would have been happy with just being an adventurer again.
All the sidequests are just that technically. ARR gave us good reasons for the dungeons like Hauke Manor or Aurum Vale. The extreme dungeons are actually also like that.
It would have worked if we had our own puzzle we went after getting clues in dungeons and then meddling with the successor trials now and then, helping Wuk Lamat out till the second half when we really stepped in to safe the world.
You could have even intermingled that with, lets say the artifact armor (the first at least). We gather the parts or something like that in the first two dungeons, having solo duties against Thancred and Alisae (like they kinda promised) now that we don't have the weight of the world on our shoulders. Then we intervened with Valigarmanda. The third dungeon could be the same with us being called in because of the golden city and so on.
You could have also made it so only Alphinaud and his sister are with Wuk Lamat while we Krile an Erenville search for the golden city crossing path's with Wuk Lamat, mentoring her and seeing her grow the next time we meet.
Make it so the golden city wasn't known as the final part of the trial but the final test and we finding it bring Wuk Lamat there. Kinda like a test of depending on companions.
Just my, probably stupid ideas but I think an adventuring expansion, at least in the first half could have worked. At least less screen-time for Wuk Lamat.
This 100 percent. You have basically the same idea that I had, that this Expac should have been us running around with Krile and Erenville hunting down the Golden City. It would have been so easy for Galool Ja Ja to hand Krile her adoptive Father's journal and e like "your father gave this to me for safekeeping until the the day you would need it. " And then made us track down his discoveries and clues and everything to find the city ourselves, occasionally running into the scions as they help their respective claimants in the background. You coul even keep the first trial if you want because you know wede go hunt down Valigarmanda when he broke free because that's the dumb stuff adventurers do!
But I would make a different act 2. Make all of act two exploring the actual "city of gold" and if you must have the evil brother, keep him as the final trial at the top of the Golden City.
Honestly they kept saying "WoL on vacation" then made us babysit a character that is terribly written with a bad VA job (at least in English. Swapping to Japanese helped, but the bad writing still makes it pretty bad.)
I actually enjoyed most of zone 4 and want that replicated in all the other zones.
you might be on to something, I got the same vibe going through the msq. I remember the one live letter Yoshi-P said he wants to do something light & bright, caused he's so done with heavy and dark theme... but where did he intend to go? Will the 8th expansion will somehow picked up the pace again? We'll wait and see, since Yoshi-P and the team is working on it now.
I really liked the light, bright part of the story where an old lady got gunned down in the street Dirty Harry style and had her soul sucked out. Or the light-hearted bit where Bakool lament the mass grave of his infant siblings.
the problem is both halves have a great big Hrothgar shaped albatross around their necks rather than just the one half. If they wanted to test things they really should have divided them better character wise
Imo i feel like they toned down on Wuk lamat's annoying dialogue (not fully) when we got the 2nd half which helped quite a bit. Still not a fan of the character but she wasn't AS annoying imo
Like i said to other wuk lamat could have use like 10-20% less in story ( and give it to other character like kryle erenville or anyother) and put a lil more solo duty in the second half. But overall its was good... Not at the level of ew or shb but good... Thx to the second half
And thank you for telling not jumping on zoral ja... We should have rhe option to fight (and get our ass maybe kick) or no
@@JMulls yeah, she is more tolerable in the second half but it’s like having an appetiser with way too much salt. It’s going to make the main course taste salty even if it’s properly seasoned. Hopefully our tastebuds will have reset by the time the dessert (the patches) comes out
Feels like the patches could go in ANY direction why imo is prob deliberate. They prob have most of what they want to do worked out but maybe pivot a little bit pending feedback from 7.0? Maybe I'm just being optimistic tho
Personally I didn't dislike the idea of the WoL being more of a support role, but it wasn't executed nearly well enough to work for me. Nuance is key.
Yeah if we were going to mentor Wuk Lamat, then give us scenes actively mentoring her, and maybe sparring with her to make her stronger and battle hardened
I feel like a great many of the MSQ issues could have been resolved by taking away some of the attention and spotlight from Wuk Lamat, who hogs the attention for the *entire expansion*, and give it to someone else. Krile got done dirty. Erenville was for the most part just an exposition machine. The Scions, more than any other expansion, mostly just sat on the side filling a gap in the party. Koana, Thancred and Urianger were not rivals like they were supposed to be, they spent most of the expansion cooperating with and praising Wuk Lamat. Zoraal Ja didn't have his motivations properly explored until *his literal deathbed*. Sphene only got ONE zone for us to get to know, which is nowhere near long enough for a proper sympathetic villain to be fleshed out, she wasn't even around for 90% of the last zone! Many plot points were just forgotten about or casually dismissed off-hand, like Kemretten being attacked turning into just "Oh, Zoraal Ja robbed me" later on, or Sareel Ja having obvious motivations and goals for reaching the Golden City, then he just dies and is forgotten about.
Heck, I think they missed a great opportunity with the cooking trial. They went with the safe option, pairing Wuk up with Koana, so he could praise her and gush over how amazing she is, when she *should* have been paired up with Zoraal Ja, who would challenge her ideals *and* offer us some deeper insight into his motivations earlier on.
Wuk Lamat was an ok character, but that's it. Just ok. She was no where near good enough to carry an expansion. She didn't earn being front and center. She didn't earn her save-the-day moment in the final trial. She didn't earn her heart to heart with Sphene while we stood off to the side like a Scion of the Seventh Dawn. I'm fine with the first half of the story focusing on her, as that was her journey. But the moment a transdimensional world-ending threat rocks up, sure she could be around since Tural was at stake too, but it should have been the WoL and the Scions leading the charge. Not the house cat.
I think if the 14 devs can balance out the lighthearted moments and the heavier moments. It really got exhausting in the middle of Endwalker just going through so much emotional situations to the point where I don't care as much. The second half of Dawntrail is definitely better, but I do think being able to balance out some dedicated moments of levity so the more emotional moments can hit harder without the drawback of it playing too much with the heartstrings. Both Shadowbringers and Endwalker are pretty heavy overall with their stories, so the first half of Dawntrail was a little refreshing imo. It'd be better if the story was a little more investing, but I didn't hate the first half too much. I think that they should be careful to not tip the scales too much into one direction for too long.
I just hope the scions are more involved in the future
Nobody said we will buy a test. I am expicting finished well writen and fun game!
I see two huge flaws. The first flaw is that Dawntrail is the start of a new long, several years at least, Story. And the start must be majestic. First impression is important, we know.
First part of the story was a drag and mostly stupid. Imagine teaching Hanuhanu how to do their own ritual...
The second flaw is the execution. Way too many plot holes and dumb decisions. Zones feels empty and dead. Just look at Solution 9. Empty city. Nothing happens there. Only pretty pictures here and there. If you remove the several merchants from the zone then it will look like something from pre-alpha version of the game. The last zone is the most epic fail i have ever expirienced as part of a game that is considered VERY important. Helping a ghost to find his ring so he can propose to his beloved one and then 2 minutes later delete everyone. WTF was that? Krile part was good. Cahciua was Ok.
Dungeons and Trials are pure magic. I enjoyed all of them. Challenging and fun with very good aestetics content. I couldn't ask for more.
The start of the expansion feels very rushed to me.
That being said (alsmost) everything will change, IMO.
Yoshi-P said "i heared you guys liked the story of Hydaelyn/Zodiark saga" (or something like that). We have a better one! He also said that the start of the expansion will give them a giude of to where the story should go based on players opinion. He said that the start of the expansion is something like a test (not directly). So, they are basically not sure about the direction they should take.
All that means 7.1 to 7.3 patches are going to be a lot better. I strongly believe in that.
Overall i have fun in Dawntrail and that is important despite the fact i expected a lot more as a start.
i just want a good story and a fun game, dont need to "test" anything.
I view the first half of DT as an intentional attempt at a pallet cleanser more than a test. They just went a little too far in the first half with the whimsical to the point it felt immature.
The problem is that first half? People are slamming it for being obvious but, y'all, have you SEEN some of the takes out there from Shadowbringers and Endwalker? Anything LESS than that and a large proportion of players can, will, and HAVE IN THE PAST missed the whole point. People don't WANT that, but damn do they NEED it. To be honest, I want the emotional complexity of the second half with the characters of the first half. And some of the potentialities of the second. Like... what just happened could have MASSIVE repercussions for the First and the Void and I would LOVE to be able to restore those two worlds to greater habitability.
I also want to pull an Ishgard Restoration with the ruins that sit in Heritage Found. Let me make that a functioning and habitable city again! PLEASE!
Personally I like Zoraal Ja as a villain.
However my favourite part of the story was Shaaloani, the only part of the story where you didn't got dragged around by Wuk Lamat, she's so boring.
The second half is way better. But I feel like the main issue with Wuk Lamat is that she doesn't grow as a character, she's entirely one dimensional.
And I like that you draw parallels to Stormblood, but Lyse is a way more compelling character, she does actually develop and get better over time during the course of the expansion, that never happens with Wuk Lamat, STB is also just like DT split in two halves, the first half where you help the people of Othard, to gather allies and make friends so that you can go back to Gyr Abania to defeat the remains of the Garlean Empire.
I think we should see what 7.1 to 7.3 has to offer, and then go from there.
All Wuk does is yap about about understanding, and goes out of her way to get to know strangers, but fails to understand or even try to understand her brother and why he turned evil.
She doesn't grow, have a naive worldview but is NEVER challenged about it. Everything and everyone folds in 2 boxes of dialogue against her rhetoric. It took WoL 5 expansions of endlessly helping and saving literally everyone, ending multiple wars AND an apocalypse event to finally bring everyone together toward a common goal. Wuk Lamat achieved that just by existing for 5 whole damn minutes. And we even get some disney princess sung theme for that lmao. I was completely sold to the idea of this msq but they quite literally completely fumbled the most crucial part of it.
They managed to make people complain about the trope of friendship in a game that has been using that trope for more than 10 years. WoL's superpower is litteraly summoning his friends to fight together ffs.
I read somewhere, that one of main writers for dawntrail was a beast tribes story writer, specifically Pixies. And honestly, I'm willing to believe that.
Dawntrail can be summed up by a Light Novel Title:
"I've spent over 10 years becoming the hero, got overpowered (gotta have that in there), saved the world dozens of times and now I follow this idiot along trying to keep her from getting killed."
Got me feeling like Deku working at McDonald’s after losing his quirk 😭
I have two big problems with MSQ: 1) Wuk Lamat in excess. Seriously, the whole expansion I felt like his minion. She even stole my last fight. 2) How poorly they wrote the Scions. They became bland filler NPCs. Frankly, the second half of the story should have belonged to Krile and Erenville. And the scions should have stayed in Eorzea (at least most of them). The writers missed a great opportunity to bring them together in an epic way in later expansions.
I was thinking the same. Bringing the Scions back straight after Endwalker was completely unnecessary (Some- or all of them shoud have died in EW, their story was finished and it would have been a great end... OR they should have made them disappear for more than 2 expansions before letting them show up again, to make it interesting, but no...), not enough happens with them. They were practically not needed and they could have just established more new, fresh characters instead...
The New FF9 lore dump had me going..........( Cue john a thron meme) " I don't like where this is going lol" now i love 9 but i feel like SQ is using 14 similar as how Nintendo used Smash Bros to tease other ip or new ideas 🤔
Except it DOES, we actually have tons of crazy threads still going on that we're established this expac. crazy to not find em
We would have to see what the patch story will bring to the table I know one point would have Y'shtola look at the magic chalice mcguffin.
Yeah or they could have something to do with Sphene's crown which glowed in the post credit scene, patches could really go anywhere, but they kind of hinted at us going further north in Xak Tural. Could be a patch thing or could be 8.0 dunno
@@JMulls 7.1 will almost certainly revolve around the political situation in S9, and the upset Rhoneek in Shaaloani. The former plot will likely be wrapped up early into 7.1, and the latter will lead into discovery of something "big" which leads to the 7.2 and 7.3 patch stories concluding with a trial in 7.3. Then 7.4 will start looking into the key and interdimensional travel, possibly using stuff we learned in 7.2 and 7.3.
I want people to remember ARR 2.0 was for the first leg a rehash of the 1.0 story.
Meeting the Scions, coming into our own as an adventurer, beating primals then we beat Gaius and stop lahabrea.
The Realm is reborn and then Midgorsomr supposedly wakes up. That's where 2.0 ends.
We spent MORE of the 2.x story building what would become this 10 year story arc. 2.x had a lot of ground covered so much so a lot of ARR quests have been removed/abridged.
Great, but what did it build then ?
The story is completed, the one and only thing that hasn't received its conclusion is the key that you get at the very end. Yeah we're probably gonna explore other reflects, but beside that it didn't build anything. Wuk Lamat is a character that can't leave her place since she rules there, Koana too. So yeah that's kinda meh, the new characters can't really have any further real implication in the story (the same way they did with Aymeric, Lyse and Hien).
If you've got another point of view on what it built, I invite you to answer me, I'd love to be wrong.
@@toornesol You jumped over to the part where 2.0's main story ends without setting up much besides Midgarsomr being awoken.
There wasn't anything else to go off of until post 2.x
My point is both told a complete story in isolation. 2.x gives us "what to build then? "
My whole point is 7.x will give us "what to build then?" all you're missing was the midgardsomr cliffhanger.
That was my point of view.
First part of the story wasn't too terrible. For example it had background narrative of Bakool Ja Ja's journey, the whole narrative of succession rite as a means to make competitors into a better ruler is neat. Koana had a great character development, Wuk Lamat had a tiny one (good person becomes confident isn't too riveting of a narrative).
Then there's issue with VA. It seems all of the actors were extremely focused on making an exotic accent, they fumbled everything else. Particularly stands out sort of american cowboy bs they made in shaaloani. And it's all over the place. Wuk Lamat voice, while usually okay to great sounds awful in almost every highly emotional or shouting scene. It's like they threw out any directing of English VA and just gone with the first take on everything
keep up the good work man streams and vids have been great
Thanks Hazard! I appreciate that!
I preferred the first half, to be honest. I wanted an expansion where we WEREN'T trying to save the entire star, or in this case, all reflections across the rift. I wanted something more laid back, something where we were having fun exploring again. I actually liked the story of searching for a lost, legendary city somewhere on the continent, mentoring a new generation of leaders to be better. Yes, Wuk Lamat was naive, but I liked the idea of us helping her realize that the world isn't as black and white as she thinks and sometimes there IS no compromise or understanding.
1st half being Wuk Lamat's story is fine, she was the medium used to worldbuild Tural... at least the southern half. Erenville being a native of the Northern half should have been the focus of the 2nd half along with Krille.
It also doesn't help that Zarool Ja as a villain is way too cookie cutter. Sphene as a "villain" was interesting, but it felt like she was Emet-Selch lite.
But what really soured things for me was in the last trial. We could have the last fight to ourselves? Seriously?
I would have liked to see Zero join the entire MSQ. She was surprised by Eorzian food, so trying Tural culture would be interesting. Also, I'd have her get a bloodlusted Zenos mode whenever she gets push to far in a fight. First gets revealed after fighting Gulool Ja Ja herself, then getting used to it and connecting with people anyway would be her arc. Then she 1v1s Zoraal Ja and start busting out classic Zenos lines on him!
As for Wuk Lamaat, Sphene, Zoraal Ja, and the rest of the story, I was unsurprised and felt the pacing was off. I meet bunch of people an hour ago, the "die," cue sad scene, and I'm supposed to feel something when I really don't.
Somehow Bakool Ja Ja was the most interesting character and then he became a back up dancer.
>it felt like a beast tribe quest
... the fist half of the MSQ was written by someone who wrote mostly beast tribe quests...
I think you bring up most of the big criticisms, but I would push back and say the nuance of pt. 2 was present in pt.1, it was just not the focus. Basically as long as Wuk Lamat isn't talking, something pretty cool is happening or being said. Wachupelu, Okhanu, and earthenshire are probably the least deep, but are used to introduce the brothers, their flaws, and ideas. Worlor and beyond is all building up threads for the payoffs of Cahciua, Galuf, Bakool, Zaraal Ja, The city of gold. ect.
If I had to say the real difference between Act 1 and 2 its Act 1 is about family. Act 2 is about grief. With the overall theme being legacy.
For instance. The Pelu Pelu you follow is conflicted over letting down Her father figure by following her passion. The Hanu Hanu have forgotten the meaning behind the traditions of their ancestors. The Moblins can't kidnap people anymore, so now they have to adopt craftsmen instead.
Oh 100%, there's a TON of foreshadowing that looks super obvious in retrospect especially as I'm starting to watch others play through the msq. I still quite enjoy Dawntrail on the whole
The wol was basically an astral projection of themself pretending to be there
Funny thing is I really liked the first half. But like almost exclusively for the parts of it that didn’t feel lije Fairy Tail. Like I could turn my brain off for that, but I *loved* going from settlement to settlement and learning about the people and the world and its history and customs. Many of the characters were fun and loveable. I did get an eye roll out of a few of the scenes where Wuk Lamat preaches about understanding, especially the one where she shout’s it from the rooftops at no one in particular.
Like I just imagine someone in the house below facepalming and going “this is exactly why I voted for Koana.” And I love Wuk Lamat, I just wish she’d done more showing and less telling.
I think bakool ja ja was the best written character. I personally dislike how we weren't the main character. I think the story took too long for it to ramp up making the first 1/2 the game boring. I think the story is too soft. In the older expansion, raubahn got his arm chopped off, papalymo dies, haurchefant dies, we got characters like asahi and yotsuyu.
I personally found his heel turn super annoying, like I don't understand why he changed his entire personality on a dime
@@ReelistStudios that's true. I think they could have done it a bit better then just a instant 180.
@@ReelistStudios It's because he finally was able to let that facade down. That entire time he was hurting, mentally. He felt like he had nothing else to lose. Father disowned him, his followers abandoned him, lost his chance at the seat. So that was his final stand, showing his vulnerability. And us hearing him out, accepting him, and turning the fate of his entire people gave him HOPE. Something we learned back in Endwalker. Love Bakool and he is definitely my favorite after Gulool and baby Gulool.
@@Prism_Heavy I would be able to buy that if we had a short scene of him alone slipping in the act or something.
That would have been nice imo, he was kind of the stereotypical saturday morning cartoon villain at the start with him being laughably bad and literally stepping on your tacos, but I liked the story they ended up giving him, pacing was a bit iffy but I still think it works
Oh, 1:41. I remember my wife watching this part and saying: They are just fucking tacos.
She gave me a good laugh cause, omg I needed one, going through that snorefest of a msq.
There is only one chunk in Dawntrail and it is the Wuk Lamat chunk from start to finish.
They need to get rid of the escort/stealth quests, and the talk to 5 people/survey the area cutscene into meet me at this point and talk to 5 people again before surveying the area into cutscene.
A test, you say?
Of my patience, perhaps.
Of my integrity?
Of my self-respect?
Several bloody things were tested with the MSQ 😂 Whoever signed off on this deserves to get sacked. My WoL may be forced to say NOTHING but good things about Wuk Lmao, but I certainly won't.
"The power of yapping" line killed me lol! But, my favorite was zone 4. The zone is gorgeous, and with Wuk gone, it actually felt like what an adventurer would do. It's quite reminisce to the WoL arriving in Eorzia for the first time in 2.0. I really hope the focus goes away from Wuk in 7.1.
#BringBackIshikawa
They did get new writers, all the main writers did SHB side quest design and i think the werlyt dark story.
Great video, I'm glad this discourse is out there.
Thank you Tera! Glad you enjoyed it
I feel like the themeing of the zones as well play a good bit into the impressions.
Kozama'uka and the first half of Yak Tel feel like the rainforests tropical climates we've seen before with Ronka and some of La Noscea, while the story didn't fee very impactful. The seocnd half of Kozama'uka felt a bit like Thavnair in the zone design and the stories overall didn't seem as engaging for me.
Urqopacha was a beautiful zone in the first half plagued by the rather bit dull story, but the second half was IMO way better. The open fields of the Yok Hui areas and as well the whole storyline with Valigarmanda really felt a good mileage better than everything so far.
The second half of Yak Tel was better thanks to the story line of Bakool and the common plot thread, IMO.
Then you hit the end of the rite of succession and I felt like finally the 'interlude' was done. Now it was time to go explore, and Xak Tural was quite a delight. Stronger story direction, better writing, more exploration than just being strung along by Wuk Lamat. And when the whole part with Heritage Found hit, it was absolutely my 'wake up and really pay attention, it's the good bit' moment after a drowsy and tired awakening during Shaloaani.
I didn't have as many troubles as some of you all did. I kind of just took it as this is Wuk Lamat's story to power, and I'm just here to chill. There are, however, parts where it feels like we were about to have our moments, but instead, we got blocked, and it was given to Wuk Lamat, which was a bit irritating. But then again, I'm retired as WoL after Endwalker and am just another dude now. 🤷♂️
I did not go into Dawntrail expecting Bakul Ja Ja to become the most interesting claimant to the throne
i think it was a test and i think the way the community responded is going to make things hard going foward. a lot of people like me actually really enjoyed wuk lamat and the slow storytelling but apparently a lot of people hated it. the problem is see is that naratively they cant just keep making the wol of light stronger and stronger that kind of reached its climax in endwalker so they have to find a way to make people who didnt like dawntrail have fun in a story that isnt about the wol directly. i think another test was about introducing new characters the problem they are facing is that people are both attached to the scions but also want something different and new characters, but they also are holding new characters to the standard of characters we have known for 10 years and not giving them time to grow.
They can make the WoL stronger and stronger, and that is what they are going to do. The problem is there was no big bad waiting on the horizon. For WoL to get stronger there has to be some challenge to overcome or some set back and you just overcame everything that was sitting on the table.
They need time to sow the seeds of a new big bad and let them grow so that the WoL can have development again so we got an alternate main character who could have development instead and a lot of planted seeds.
I mean in the past the WoL shared a lot of screentime with other characters and there was never a problem. I dont think the WoL has always to be the center of the story but at least put him at equal footing with the new characters. This time he wasnt equal, he was nothing more than a bystander. Watching how things resolve without any kind of interaction. So it was more like watching a lot of cutscenes with menial task in between and thats not entertaining at all.
@@Mejandora Ok explain to me how you would do that? I am genuinely interested to hear how you would make that remotely work.
@@JathraDH I would have first introduced all participants of the Rite of Throne in more detail during the MSQ. More conversations about personal experiences, views or goals in life. The Othard part of StB is a good example in my eyes. We meet Hien for the first time in the Azim Steppe on his mission to reclaim his homeland and together with him we get to know the different tribes, learn about their culture and ways of life. Hien knew as little about the tribes of the Azim Steppe as Wuk knows about the different peoples of their homeland, but you never felt like you were just Hien's sidekick. The succession to the throne was sold to us as a competition, but there never was a competition. Apart from the incidents with Bakool Ja Ja. I would have just involved the other contestants more in the whole thing. For example, you could have made an event similar to the Bardam where we fight for something with the other participants. Team Wuk vs Team Koana vs Zoraal Ja vs Bakool Ja Ja. Our task would then have been to watch Wuk's back, for example. She would have won in the end, but we would have simply done more than just stand at the side and nod our heads. So on the whole, no major changes, just a bit of fine-tuning in the sense of: Less Wuk alone, more Team Wuk.
@@Mejandora That type of storytelling worked in Stormblood because our char was still relatively weak. Zenos came in and humbled us first thing in the expansion. There was still the ascian threat looming and so on. So we had a reason for our character to progress and continue getting stronger.
We were roughly Hein's strength in Stormblood, maybe a bit stronger, but not saving the universe level strength so working with him as rough equals made sense.
We have none of this in Dawn Trail. We are literally the cannonical strongest known thing in the universe when Dawn Trail opens.
How could we possibly give any one any development if we are involved? We would literally sneeze and the fight would be over. How could we possibly develop as a character if there is nothing stronger than us to give us a challenge?
Stormblood style storytelling simply would not have worked here. They needed to buy some time with us out of the picture to set up something for us to actually fight and give some characters some development. It would impossible for us to have any ourselves without any new threat looming.
Now, what they probably should have done is set up that threat in Endwalker post patch but they didn't. They kinda wrote themselves into a dead end for the opening of Dawn Trail. I don't really see many ways they could have made it better without feeing horribly contrived. Even the actual threat at the end of the expansion felt too rushed to be honest. If they had kept Solution 9 a total secret it would have also been substantially better.
I know people on both sides of the coin… the people that I know like the first half better are alright with the second half whilst the people I know who prefer the second half seem to hate the first XD
A test of how far they can go without loosing a majority of their playerbase.
Wuk Lamat the Yapservant
though it does A LOT OF SENSE, it amazes me they dont already knowing that... i mean, isn't that kinda of always obvious? but yeah, i do think you're right, that's the only explanation to the diference of pace and storytelling
With power of rainbow everythng is possible! You can even make dull character out of cat!
My favorite part in the MSQ is seeing my friends back but immediately disappointed when I can't explore with them... Next one is when MSQ ended because I don't have to be forced to deal with Wuk Lamat again... Just got tired of her and even the final battle momentum felt tilted with her deus ex moment...
Ngl I feel like the first half was more solid than the second half... Dont get me wrong I do agree it flimsy at points and they did not fully commit to the whole contest thing but I found it so refreshing, meanwhile second half felt so rushed at points, from entering the dome to Zoraal Ja actually doing something felt like the lowest of lows in the MsQ for me. The rest was great, the final zone was incredible and the final trial was amazing!
I adore SHB and EW...well, mostly just launch MsQ EW, but after two expansions of that formula it starts to feel like the same thing but with a new coat of paint.
The "Lyse is a better character than Wuk Lamat" is wild statement. Wuk isnt really the same type of character as Lyse, you can say shes much more shallow but at least shes a memorable character, people straight up forget Lyse existed. Stormblood's MsQ was abyssmal for me partially with how bad they butchered Ida/Lyse as a character. I dont want to bash on Lyse but goodness, ive gotten like 8 people to play through FF14 at this point and not a single one has told me they liked Stormblood's launch MsQ... Ive had people straight up quit playing because Stormblood's MsQ bored the shit out of em just to get past ot and now they continue as usual. The best of Stormblood is really its post game MsQ and post game Trials/Raids. But yeah thats just my opinion, a popular one at that... I swear SB discussion always resurfaces 😂
But yeah, tbh I agree DT MsQ was a test, I dont agree with half the points you made and thats fine because at the end we all like different things and have our own bias, hence being out opinions. Its nice to see others perspective on things. I personally loved DTs MsQ and I love how unpredictable FF14 can be with its story elements.
The first half felt like a never endling slog of boring side quests, i really had to restrain myself from skipping the cutscenes and the few i skipped probably didn't have any value to the story anyway.
I don’t think replacing the WoL as the MC would be a good idea. FFXIV’s story always felt different compared to other MMORPGs.
In other titles, your character always felt like a sword for hire. You went where you were told, you took a backseat to the important characters, and even as you basically did the work and defeated the big bad, you were kinda a footnote at best lore wise.
In FFXIV, this was your story. How you rose to be the WoL you were today. Your character felt like they grew as the story unfolded. They weren’t background but rather in the forefront of everything. This was their journey and no one else’s. So having them replaced as MC wouldn’t feel right.
Or maybe I’ve played some terrible MMOs prior to FFXIV in terms of story but hey, who’s counting?
The second half was at least as bad as the first; the stakes were forced and not earned and wuk forcing herself in to the final trial to solo the boss destroyed any investment that had built in the final area, which also has faults such as not giving us the right material or time to even really care about the decision being made. It was an interesting idea, but the execution was terrible.
what i say, is that you should compare DT to ARR as it is a new string of a red line of a story, people need to calm down and let the story build up, since we need a beginning to make sense later, everything gonna play a role, like warrior of darkness in HW.
I did enjoy the first part but it didn't really feel like ff14 to me at the same time. It sticks out and reminded me of ARR where I didn't start enjoying it until I got near to stopping the Ultima weapon. It did feel better to play than ARR but I would not want to play an whole expansion like the first part. I like the story better when we get complex charters and verity and not having to babysit a grown adult when she should know more about the culture of her own home country. That my main grip is actually I got tired of Wuk Lamat knowing so little about her own country she lives in when she is basically the princess of that country.
you should call a spade, a spade.
I loved the first have the story it was super fun and low key which I loved
Must been a test on how to stretch a one-zone side quest for Wuk Lamat into an entire game! So many chances for extra good story. They could have had a western-style tural vidral roundoup with Estien for the zone, but we are looking for jewelry. We go to one zone to... make spicy food. Where is the character growth? So disappointed. At least the last 40% of game stopped me from turning the game off.
Making people wait 2+ years for a full expansion of whatever the rite of succession was doesn't seem like a good business plan
Great breakdown! I personally didn't like the Wuk Lamat character right off the bat. I found her insufferable. By the end she was OK, but already tainted... I literally liked every character more.
I will say though that I loved all the first half zones so much more than the last two.
Literally hate Heritage Found and the last zone was just meh!
Overall not bad, but not great either. Definitely was a 'test' or 'palet cleanser' as it was after the 10 year story arc.
I liked the cowboy town with erinville, and train go boooom!!! Pls have more people to talk to instead of 1. Also i should had switched to japanese voice acting this expansion a lot of voice feel really homogenous
Yeah the cowboy adventure with Erinville was cool, though I do wish we had Estinien with us there because the dynamic with him would have been perfect. After seeing the expert dungeon though it does REALLY make me wish that was part of the story somehow just because the location is so Indiana Jones and would have fit the adventure vibe they were going for perfectly imo
I'm going to be honest, especially with this supposed to be the start of a new Saga? This is easily the best entry in FFXIV from a storytelling perspective. There is PLENTY of nuance in all of the story beats. Wuk Lamat is the vessel, who in her growth, shows trying to understanding different perspectives and understanding the intracacies of a melding pot of cultures. But also, it's not our story! All of Dawntrail is Wuk Lamat's story and coming of age.
Hopefully this is one of those times ff14 is at its lowest Story wise before getting better through the next few patches. After slogging through DT maw it made me appreciate stormblood A LOT more.
I actually did not find the 1st half to be anymore slow than previous expansion first halfs outside of Stormblood which got you into the gameplay first before the cutscene dump the formula has been the same. I suggest replaying the story through new game plus for another perspective on it as more often than not most have played the MSQ one time and then come back and forget how slow everything actually was in the previous expansion with their memory of the high points which is why I disagree with the hot takes that the Endwalker patch stories were "bad" as they simply do not remember how slow what came before it was in comparison.
I actually think 98-99 was the worst pacing in the game. Getting to solution 9 and having to talk to the villagers and take a tour with Wuk Lamat was one of the most frustrating MSQ experiences I've had in a while.
Yeah i think the second half was much better. I've always said ever since they showed alot of the Tural stuff and the trailer that it felt too Disney for me. I will say that I'm not a fan of the last zone, though.
Wuk lamat is twilight sparkle lmao 🤣
So basically what you're saying is, "uwu is that your bulge+Naruto"?
Imma be real.. this is wishful thinking. My guess is it's more likely the story here was mismanaged and Ishikawa being moved into a supervisor role was a mistake. I mean good for her for the promotion but having a supervisor role mean means she's doing more management and less actual writing. DT had two writers and one wrote Werlyt and Four Lords scenarios which were hit and miss for me, and the other wrote the Pixie and Dwarf tribal quests. Knowing that the DT MSQ makes much more sense to my why it ended up the way it did. Why the early parts feel like beast tribe quest and why the second gets dramatic out of no where. Because the story was the writers writing what they know. Beast Tribe quests for one and trauma drama for the other.
Yeah but assuming that's true I'd argue that gives me credence to my theory, test each half with writers that specialize in that writing style. I just also don't think it was executed all that well either
At this point they just need to beg Ishikawa to write again, even if they have to raise her salary.
Bro, you didn't have to do Amyeric dirty like that. Even if it is the truth.
For debate: one of things 1st half I liked was that there were more solo player duties. Y'know when go to face Gulool Ja Ja, and then later on in the story, Gulool Ja Ja when he was in his prime.
First half of the story is what most people complain about. I can understand they just find it bad since technically all we do is to baby sit Wuk Lamat, and it's basically HER story, not ours. The second half of the story is good since we deal with morals and ideals from a different world,aaaand we throw wuk lamat here and there, but not as heavily as the first part.
The whole Alexandrian segment was good, anyone saying otherwise is delusional at this point.
thank #@)*ing god for the 2nd half.
I enjoyed stormblood more than 1st half by a mile. At least stormblood 4.0 had conflict.
First half DT was:
1. friendship
2. 90% Lamat, 10% scions/anyone else
3. talking, no fighting
4. zzz ah fuck I fell asleep just remembering it, later.
a X.0 msq expansion is NOT the place to test things.
I don't think this was the test you think it was. I think this was a test of newer staff, or old staff that were sidelined.
I agree that a .0 story is not the place to do a test and you could entirely be right that it's more them testing different writers with different styles to see what works