I never liked this storyline for Toby, but I don't think it was entirely off-brand for him either. He was always self-righteous and stubborn in his principles, and he always thought he knew better than everyone else. That said, he was also fiercely loyal and outwardly professional, so I have a really hard time seeing him blatantly and publicly undermine the president like this. If it were Sorkin's Toby, I think a heated shouting match in the oval office would be far more likely, with Toby strongly disagreeing with Bartlett's final decision but ultimately just "biting his tongue" and carrying on with his other work in sullen disappointment.
Toby was such a great character. I read him as an "elitist well-educated liberal who thinks he's always right, which is validated by the fact that most of the time he is." The problem, of course, is the other times. I think his character is an interesting investigation into a stereotype in politics, whether valid or not.
The Toby of Seasons 1-4 would NEVER do this. Never. I'm not a complete hater of seasons 5-7, but this storyline, combined with making "Kate" some kind of super-genius national security savant equal to and exceeding Leo and Nancy and everyone else were just horrid. Really, I kind of hated everything about the Kate storylines, but particularly with how they intersected with Leo.
@@Mackinstyle "elitist well-educated liberal who thinks he's always right, which is validated by the fact that most of the time he is." The problem, of course, is the other times. I believe you can say that about conservatives also.
@@Mackinstyle That's a great analysis. I kinda hate that it happened, but also not. Because it was definitely not out-of-character for him, and I like it when writers dare to take a character and see him through.
After Sorkin left, "The West Wing" really messed up Toby. The writers seemed to miss the mark with him, turning him into a bit of a goofball-like how he acted during press briefings, which felt way off from his original character. Plus, they had him becoming a problem for CJ and Josh, making him more of a hindrance than a help. Toby betraying the President over the shuttle program. It felt completely out of character for him. Sorkin’s Toby was sharp, principled, and had a tough exterior but a good heart. The post-Sorkin version didn’t have that same depth and just seemed like a shadow of what he used to be.
Also it was just ridiculous that he had a brother that happened to be on the space shuttle. Better to have had a sibling that died in service elsewhere, and feel ultra sympathetic to the astronauts almost being allowed to die because of “secret”.
@@carlosrvra His brother was on the space shuttle in season 1 when they couldn't close the bay door. He later committed suicide sometime in season 6. So Toby's motive was to help the astronauts out of sympathy.
Well they messed up a lot to things after Sorkin left. Some people like the post-Sorkin stuff and that's fine, but the final three seasons are just barely the same show as the initial four, imo
I don't think it's bad, it's just a different tone and style, John Wells is just a different writer than Aaron Sorkin. Aaron Sorkin made the characters sound smart, and John Wells made them talk smart. Aaron likes the rhythm and sound of dialogue, his characters showed their intelligence through their passion for subjects. John Wells made them knowledgeable on the subjects, they knew all the lingo. I don't know if Toby's plot with the space shuttle was the best but they wrote it in a way that made sense. I think they also wanted to give him something important to do rather than be a 3rd wheel to the rest of the White House portion of the show, and it gave them the excuse to have Bartlet pardon him at the last minute in reconciliation.
There is so much nuance to this scene. The line from earlier where Oliver says "you gave him a phone" is such a foreshadowing of Oliver's balance in the case because he's trying to protect literally everyone, including Toby, from themselves and others. It's like a well-rehearsed dance. The dance Alana and Oliver have when Alana advises Toby and Oliver comes in to ask the only important question, the question he knows will be the center of the case, knowing Toby's answer can only be binary and will determine his next actions... like a game of chutes and ladders with only two probable outcomes, and the ideal answer for everyone being Toby declines to answer on the advice of counsel. This is how great minds think and act. This is well written.
Yeah he would. He dropped the presidents name to get a military funeral for a stranger. What would he do to save his own brother? Plus he was right. Protecting that secret was not worth killing an entire shuttle crew. The one who is being written wrong here is Bartlett.
@@robloughrey I know it's a TV and hypothetical but if we have a military shuttle that could win any future wars for us I would keep it quiet even if it meant sacrificing 6 people.
I never bought that he was covering for CJ. As much as people say Toby would never betray Bartlett, CJ ABSOLUTELY never would. Toby, while I love him, is just self-righteous enough to consider it and do it when realizes how he’d feel if his brother had been one of those astronauts.
Richard Schiff wanted to off the show full time by this period. It's not a great way to write out Toby, but the story line makes sense. Toby does always think he's morally superior to everyone.
I think the reason they screwed Toby around was that the White House was meant to be the CJ and Toby show, with Josh and Sam gone and the President and Leo both unwell. Toby even says words to this effect in early season 6. Then Richard wanted out of the show, and they had to scramble a little to come up with a reason why. Making Will the "good guy" again after him being the villain for so long is another example of this.
Everybody saying this was out of character of Toby, I believe, are mistaken. As many have pointed out, Toby possessed the self-righteousness and stubbornness to do this. His loyalty is a key factor that normally would have prevented him from doing it. People aren't taking several things into consideration though that have happened to him over the years. The schism between him and the president continued to grow. CJ being promoted over him after she worked for him for so long. The most important thing though is the death of his brother who was also an astronaut. His brother's death hit him really hard and affected him so much that I believe he felt he finally had control over something and didn't think the president would make the right choice. I think he saw his brother in those astronauts and wanted to save them.
Yeah, this didn't come out of left field. Toby had a character arc that made it plausible that he would do this. You could feel him becoming more and more distant from the rest of the characters. It's almost like Toby is the only one who stuck to the idealism of the first few seasons while everyone else compromised.
The thing is that the president would've probably not sent the military spaceshuttle up - it's his job to look beyond the lifes of a few astronauts if national security is involved.
Post-Sorkin the writers destroyed Toby, they had no idea what do with the character. Sam had left, & they had Will, so they moved him around a bit, ultimately sending him to VP's office and later in his presidential campaign and then back to WH as Toby's successor. Leo was the advisor later VP candidate, CJ was CoS, Josh had Santos, Donna had the Russell campaign, they literally resurrected Cliff Calley to make him deputy CoS. Bottom line is that everyone had a part to play in the post-Sorkin era, Toby didn't. So in post-Sorkin era they dawdled with Toby, he'll give some funny press conference, waste time with Annabeth, nothing substantial. The writers didn't know what to do of Toby, they had no understanding of his personality, to them he was a piece of furniture that they tried to adjust in various settings. All the people in the Bartlett WH were loyal to country or party, but they were more loyal to Bartlett. Their agenda was always "Bartlett on the top" others be damned. But in a situation if there was someone who had something left for the country, Bartlett be damned, it was Toby. He was the moral compass of the administration. He wanted to fix Social Security but then the WH had to leave credit. If we revisit that Social Security scene, Leo & Josh have given up, but the eye contact between Toby & Jed is what makes Jed decide that he'll not take credit. Saying that, Toby still had loyalty & respect towards Bartlett, and as a loyal employee and advisor the writers destroyed his credibility with this nonsense "shuttle leak" story. They were like not everyone can come out from this unscathed, someone has to have something bad going on to bring in the ratings so let's make that useless furniture, what's his name again... Oh! Toby yaaa... lets make Toby fall on the sword, it'll be fun.
Yeah, Toby would have had it out with Bartlet in a private shouting match, then resigned if Jed didn't budge. But he wouldn't leak the story, then spend weeks continuing to work while things spiraled and every person the West Wing was interrogated.
It's always humorous watching people discuss what they knew the writers were thinking and feeling as if they were there and had any clue. It was a show, it was a drama, it was for entertainment. These characters are not real and the idea that Toby would've done something like this, in his character, is not that out of whack.
@@aigtrader2984 You know who else thought the writers made Toby do something wildly out of character with this leak storyline? Richard Schiff. Maybe most of us weren't there and don't have a clue, but he was and certainly knew the character better than we ever could.
What incredible acting. I don't know who the woman playing the attorney is, but she's great. And the way Toby's lower face muscles scrunch up at 03:55 shows you what an incredible actor he is.
I think the real storyline should have been that it was someone else who leaked the info, but Toby is so sure that it was CJ (it wasn't) he takes the blame for her.
I never understood this storyline. Toby was never read in to this program. Wherever he heard it was not an official channel. He simply shared speculation and rumors and innuendo. I used to have a job with a security clearance. You can’t be prosecuted for talking about stuff that you don’t actually know anything about.
@@Billygrundmeyer Yes, he supposedly learned about it from his deceased brother, who was an astronaut. If his brother was still alive, HE could have been prosecuted for sharing classified information. The reporter wouldn’t have been able to use Toby’s information as a source because he didn’t have direct knowledge. The show was so great and really tried to be realistic. This storyline was so sloppy. They could have fixed it by simply having Toby briefed on the program rather than learning from his brother. He clearly had a high level security clearance as he was always in the room when troop movements were being discussed.
@@OhNoNotAgain42 That type of clearance is SCI (Sensitive Compartmented Information) where you may be allowed to see relevant PIECES of information but never enough to put the whole picture together. Literally ANYTHING can be considered SCI but not necessarily Secret or TS. Example: A base commissary is given an order to prep and move 'X' number of pallets of MRE's to a flightline cargo area. You say "MRE'S???" how's THAT classified?? Simple: It paints a part of a picture. It tells someone that troops are going to be in the field, X number of troops for X number of days. Some other individual sees orders for ammo, medical supplies, etc. Some loadmaster leaves his load plan out in the open with these items listed (because most load plans are NOT classified...CERTAINLY not just a dozen pallets of MRE's, right?). Now you're putting together a picture. It's usually easy to access flight plans as well, so now you have a pretty solid picture of deployment. We know it's not training, because if were, field rations are issued at the training site, NEVER transported by air. Anyway, my point is that Toby would have held a TS/SCI clearance with possibly a CRYPTO addendum (because, hey, he's communications...but that's another topic for another time). My source: Well...I could say 'trust me bro', but it's much simpler: 32 years in the USAF, 2 stars on my shoulders, and a lifetime of handling classified information from war planning down to... MRE's. ;-)
Never like Toby, he always felt he was smartest guy in the room. He deserved prison time but the one man who he constantly criticised was the guy who saved his ass.
He's so eager to say 'I did it, nobody else was involved, the buck stops with me; stop looking for co-conspirators' that he's really telegraphing that he was taking the hit for CJ.
This story line made no sense. If Toby isn't cleared for the information, then he can't have been officially read in. If he isn't read in, then anything he can pass on is speculation. He didn't commit a crime because he had no idea if his information was true and had no idea if the information was classified. In point of fact it was C.J. that confirmed the existence of the military shuttle to him. SHE was guilty.
As a person who follows the space program closely, I can tell you that, nothing is launched into space without someone taking pictures of it and finding out everything about it. The storyline just falls short. It’s not of the caliber that the show is famous for!
I really never understood the criticism here. It’s completely in character for him to do this. Although my personal head cannon is he took the bullet for CJ
Not at all. He was idealistic, but could also see reason and didn't throw out pragmatism entirely. You don't sacrifice everything and those things that aren't yours to give at the cost of everyone and everything else.
Think better storyline would have been toby takeing the fall for someone bigger to protect them and falling on his sword sort of thing,at first with some of the dialouge with bartlet i thought thats the direction they were headed in that jed wanted it leaked so he could save the astronauts on the station but then they went this road and it just never fit
All the "Sorkin's Toby would have never done that" people are totally missing the mark. Toby was always a pompous ass who acted high and mighty to his own ruin. The way he treated his Dad, until Josh intervened. The way he acted toward Bartlett around MS episode. That's the reason his wife wouldn't marry him. It wasn't cuz he was "sad" - it's cuz he was an egomaniac.
Yeah I dont think it is as far off the mark as other people think. I also think at this point they were just looking for stuff to do. At least it was more entertaining than saving social security in a week.
Agreed. Toby is actually the most accurate person in the whole show - a political operative field by caffeine and driven by ideology and his own notion of how great he is.
toby was always self-righteous but he would never give out secrets like this, he would yell and argue with Leo/CJ/Bartlett but he wouldn't go running to the media. i'm sorry but the writers missed the mark
Except... Toby treated his father who was a murderer. He treated Bartlett because Bartlett hid his MS. Toby has his reasons. The reason why his wife didn't marry him, it was because he didn't show any compassion.
You know, say all you want about the post-Sorkin episodes, but I never felt Toby was badly written here. Think about it: he was a bit of a curmudgeon and somewhat dissilusioned about the world and government, which made him both hopeful and a bit cynical. He wants to help the world, which is why he got into government, but he is frustrated because a lot of obviously good policies are always sidelined for special interests and bullshit. He is the guy that does not mind putting himself in harm´s way to make a point and correct an injustice so secretive and big; he canpt stand the hipocrisy of those in power. He is a grump because he knows of the evils of the world and is fristrated he can´t correct them all. So, he dcided to save the astronauts, american or russian, because he felt they did not have to die just to keep a super military weapon hidden.
It’s completely within character for him. Rampant idealist takes his principles to the ends of the earth and pays the price for it. The problem with sorkin is he never punished people for unrealistic idealism
Of all the strange decisions the post-Sorkin writers room ever made, this storyline was by far the worst. They did Toby so incredibly, profoundly dirty and I'm still mad about it.
Treason is a specific crime outline in the Constitution and this ain't it. We've seen plenty of get leniency with mishandling and/or leaking classified documents.
I’ve seen a lot of great debates in these comments over this show and it’s great storylines and characters, but it brings me great pride to see that the entire fanbase universally agrees that Toby was destroyed by this story choice and it was wrong of the writers to do it
@@OptimysticPessimyst Hi, I don’t think his character was destroyed… Quite a few other commentators seem to agree. It was a shame that they didn’t explore what caused his loyalty to Bartlett to be weaker than the instinct to reveal the secret. It would have been amazing if Bartlett had a chat with him, where he could have explained himself.
I also hated this plotline but forgot how they fucked up Babish too. I had no recollection he'd returned because this has nothing to do with the charm and wit he'd previously had. Also very unclear why White House Council would be acting as a prosecutor...
I guess most commenters don't realize what Toby is actually doing... Toby betrayed no one. He's "falling on the sword". The writing of this is actually incredible... it gave much more depth to an already very deep character, by establishing human behavior found in rare people, but believe whatever you like. They're partially right, Sorkin wouldn't have written Toby that way... he doesn't have the guts or the understanding of humanity! Sorkin is a dramatist of dishonorable conflict; by speaking his truth to manufactured abusive power... he LOVES to bash down things people should be proud of, especially the military and anything not Democratic Socialism... it's all he knows. Under Sorkin, the characters were his impossibly perfect little robots, smarter than everyone else, because they were an extension of him in complete hubris. Under the writing of Wells, Flint, and others, the characters became much better... they became human.
The whole bleating "Toby wouldn't do that!" is beyond tiresome. Learn something about human nature. Damn skippy he woulda done it. And yeah, it's also possible he's covering for someone. Damn skippy he'd do that, too.
I LOVE Babbish. Another of the cameos that blessed this show.
I never liked this storyline for Toby, but I don't think it was entirely off-brand for him either. He was always self-righteous and stubborn in his principles, and he always thought he knew better than everyone else. That said, he was also fiercely loyal and outwardly professional, so I have a really hard time seeing him blatantly and publicly undermine the president like this. If it were Sorkin's Toby, I think a heated shouting match in the oval office would be far more likely, with Toby strongly disagreeing with Bartlett's final decision but ultimately just "biting his tongue" and carrying on with his other work in sullen disappointment.
Toby was such a great character. I read him as an "elitist well-educated liberal who thinks he's always right, which is validated by the fact that most of the time he is." The problem, of course, is the other times.
I think his character is an interesting investigation into a stereotype in politics, whether valid or not.
The Toby of Seasons 1-4 would NEVER do this. Never. I'm not a complete hater of seasons 5-7, but this storyline, combined with making "Kate" some kind of super-genius national security savant equal to and exceeding Leo and Nancy and everyone else were just horrid. Really, I kind of hated everything about the Kate storylines, but particularly with how they intersected with Leo.
@@Mackinstyle "elitist well-educated liberal who thinks he's always right, which is validated by the fact that most of the time he is." The problem, of course, is the other times.
I believe you can say that about conservatives also.
Richard Schiff didn't like this story arc either. Toby was a lot of things and loyal was at the top of the list.
@@Mackinstyle That's a great analysis. I kinda hate that it happened, but also not. Because it was definitely not out-of-character for him, and I like it when writers dare to take a character and see him through.
After Sorkin left, "The West Wing" really messed up Toby. The writers seemed to miss the mark with him, turning him into a bit of a goofball-like how he acted during press briefings, which felt way off from his original character. Plus, they had him becoming a problem for CJ and Josh, making him more of a hindrance than a help. Toby betraying the President over the shuttle program. It felt completely out of character for him. Sorkin’s Toby was sharp, principled, and had a tough exterior but a good heart. The post-Sorkin version didn’t have that same depth and just seemed like a shadow of what he used to be.
You mean he became human?
Also it was just ridiculous that he had a brother that happened to be on the space shuttle. Better to have had a sibling that died in service elsewhere, and feel ultra sympathetic to the astronauts almost being allowed to die because of “secret”.
@@carlosrvra His brother was on the space shuttle in season 1 when they couldn't close the bay door. He later committed suicide sometime in season 6. So Toby's motive was to help the astronauts out of sympathy.
Well they messed up a lot to things after Sorkin left. Some people like the post-Sorkin stuff and that's fine, but the final three seasons are just barely the same show as the initial four, imo
I don't think it's bad, it's just a different tone and style, John Wells is just a different writer than Aaron Sorkin. Aaron Sorkin made the characters sound smart, and John Wells made them talk smart. Aaron likes the rhythm and sound of dialogue, his characters showed their intelligence through their passion for subjects. John Wells made them knowledgeable on the subjects, they knew all the lingo. I don't know if Toby's plot with the space shuttle was the best but they wrote it in a way that made sense. I think they also wanted to give him something important to do rather than be a 3rd wheel to the rest of the White House portion of the show, and it gave them the excuse to have Bartlet pardon him at the last minute in reconciliation.
There is so much nuance to this scene. The line from earlier where Oliver says "you gave him a phone" is such a foreshadowing of Oliver's balance in the case because he's trying to protect literally everyone, including Toby, from themselves and others. It's like a well-rehearsed dance. The dance Alana and Oliver have when Alana advises Toby and Oliver comes in to ask the only important question, the question he knows will be the center of the case, knowing Toby's answer can only be binary and will determine his next actions... like a game of chutes and ladders with only two probable outcomes, and the ideal answer for everyone being Toby declines to answer on the advice of counsel. This is how great minds think and act. This is well written.
Aaron sorkin's toby never would have done that
oh I think he absolutely would have
He absolutely would have
To save my brother I'd go to jail.
Yeah he would. He dropped the presidents name to get a military funeral for a stranger. What would he do to save his own brother? Plus he was right. Protecting that secret was not worth killing an entire shuttle crew. The one who is being written wrong here is Bartlett.
@@robloughrey I know it's a TV and hypothetical but if we have a military shuttle that could win any future wars for us I would keep it quiet even if it meant sacrificing 6 people.
I never bought that he was covering for CJ. As much as people say Toby would never betray Bartlett, CJ ABSOLUTELY never would. Toby, while I love him, is just self-righteous enough to consider it and do it when realizes how he’d feel if his brother had been one of those astronauts.
Richard Schiff wanted to off the show full time by this period. It's not a great way to write out Toby, but the story line makes sense. Toby does always think he's morally superior to everyone.
I think the reason they screwed Toby around was that the White House was meant to be the CJ and Toby show, with Josh and Sam gone and the President and Leo both unwell. Toby even says words to this effect in early season 6. Then Richard wanted out of the show, and they had to scramble a little to come up with a reason why. Making Will the "good guy" again after him being the villain for so long is another example of this.
Making Will an antagonist is probably my least favourite decision in the entire show, followed closely by the Toby shuttle storyline.
Everybody saying this was out of character of Toby, I believe, are mistaken. As many have pointed out, Toby possessed the self-righteousness and stubbornness to do this. His loyalty is a key factor that normally would have prevented him from doing it. People aren't taking several things into consideration though that have happened to him over the years. The schism between him and the president continued to grow. CJ being promoted over him after she worked for him for so long. The most important thing though is the death of his brother who was also an astronaut. His brother's death hit him really hard and affected him so much that I believe he felt he finally had control over something and didn't think the president would make the right choice. I think he saw his brother in those astronauts and wanted to save them.
Yeah, this didn't come out of left field. Toby had a character arc that made it plausible that he would do this. You could feel him becoming more and more distant from the rest of the characters. It's almost like Toby is the only one who stuck to the idealism of the first few seasons while everyone else compromised.
Hi fellow West Wing fan.
The thing is that the president would've probably not sent the military spaceshuttle up - it's his job to look beyond the lifes of a few astronauts if national security is involved.
Much respect to Oliver Platt, but very surprising Oliver Babish was still around as WH Counsel.
Post-Sorkin the writers destroyed Toby, they had no idea what do with the character.
Sam had left, & they had Will, so they moved him around a bit, ultimately sending him to VP's office and later in his presidential campaign and then back to WH as Toby's successor.
Leo was the advisor later VP candidate, CJ was CoS, Josh had Santos, Donna had the Russell campaign, they literally resurrected Cliff Calley to make him deputy CoS.
Bottom line is that everyone had a part to play in the post-Sorkin era, Toby didn't.
So in post-Sorkin era they dawdled with Toby, he'll give some funny press conference, waste time with Annabeth, nothing substantial.
The writers didn't know what to do of Toby, they had no understanding of his personality, to them he was a piece of furniture that they tried to adjust in various settings.
All the people in the Bartlett WH were loyal to country or party, but they were more loyal to Bartlett. Their agenda was always "Bartlett on the top" others be damned. But in a situation if there was someone who had something left for the country, Bartlett be damned, it was Toby. He was the moral compass of the administration.
He wanted to fix Social Security but then the WH had to leave credit. If we revisit that Social Security scene, Leo & Josh have given up, but the eye contact between Toby & Jed is what makes Jed decide that he'll not take credit.
Saying that, Toby still had loyalty & respect towards Bartlett, and as a loyal employee and advisor the writers destroyed his credibility with this nonsense "shuttle leak" story.
They were like not everyone can come out from this unscathed, someone has to have something bad going on to bring in the ratings so let's make that useless furniture, what's his name again... Oh! Toby yaaa... lets make Toby fall on the sword, it'll be fun.
Yeah, Toby would have had it out with Bartlet in a private shouting match, then resigned if Jed didn't budge. But he wouldn't leak the story, then spend weeks continuing to work while things spiraled and every person the West Wing was interrogated.
It's always humorous watching people discuss what they knew the writers were thinking and feeling as if they were there and had any clue. It was a show, it was a drama, it was for entertainment. These characters are not real and the idea that Toby would've done something like this, in his character, is not that out of whack.
@@aigtrader2984 You know who else thought the writers made Toby do something wildly out of character with this leak storyline? Richard Schiff. Maybe most of us weren't there and don't have a clue, but he was and certainly knew the character better than we ever could.
The best line...
"That was the first time he used the word Please today."
Here I was blaming Obama and the Left for all my woes, when it was Sorkin all along. 😂😂🤣🤣
What incredible acting. I don't know who the woman playing the attorney is, but she's great. And the way Toby's lower face muscles scrunch up at 03:55 shows you what an incredible actor he is.
Just realised this is the same Alana Waterhouse that Amy reads to filth in front of the First Lady!
if only there was a Toby in office today. A brilliant self-righteous personal would sound great now!!!!!!
Very nice.😊
the expression between oliver and toby's attorney. a small moment but it cracks me up a bit.
I think the real storyline should have been that it was someone else who leaked the info, but Toby is so sure that it was CJ (it wasn't) he takes the blame for her.
I never understood this storyline. Toby was never read in to this program. Wherever he heard it was not an official channel. He simply shared speculation and rumors and innuendo. I used to have a job with a security clearance. You can’t be prosecuted for talking about stuff that you don’t actually know anything about.
I haven't seen the whole story for years, but didn't he learn about it from his brother?
@@Billygrundmeyer Yes, he supposedly learned about it from his deceased brother, who was an astronaut. If his brother was still alive, HE could have been prosecuted for sharing classified information. The reporter wouldn’t have been able to use Toby’s information as a source because he didn’t have direct knowledge. The show was so great and really tried to be realistic. This storyline was so sloppy. They could have fixed it by simply having Toby briefed on the program rather than learning from his brother. He clearly had a high level security clearance as he was always in the room when troop movements were being discussed.
@@OhNoNotAgain42 That type of clearance is SCI (Sensitive Compartmented Information) where you may be allowed to see relevant PIECES of information but never enough to put the whole picture together. Literally ANYTHING can be considered SCI but not necessarily Secret or TS. Example: A base commissary is given an order to prep and move 'X' number of pallets of MRE's to a flightline cargo area. You say "MRE'S???" how's THAT classified?? Simple: It paints a part of a picture. It tells someone that troops are going to be in the field, X number of troops for X number of days. Some other individual sees orders for ammo, medical supplies, etc. Some loadmaster leaves his load plan out in the open with these items listed (because most load plans are NOT classified...CERTAINLY not just a dozen pallets of MRE's, right?). Now you're putting together a picture. It's usually easy to access flight plans as well, so now you have a pretty solid picture of deployment. We know it's not training, because if were, field rations are issued at the training site, NEVER transported by air.
Anyway, my point is that Toby would have held a TS/SCI clearance with possibly a CRYPTO addendum (because, hey, he's communications...but that's another topic for another time). My source: Well...I could say 'trust me bro', but it's much simpler: 32 years in the USAF, 2 stars on my shoulders, and a lifetime of handling classified information from war planning down to... MRE's. ;-)
Never like Toby, he always felt he was smartest guy in the room. He deserved prison time but the one man who he constantly criticised was the guy who saved his ass.
He's so eager to say 'I did it, nobody else was involved, the buck stops with me; stop looking for co-conspirators' that he's really telegraphing that he was taking the hit for CJ.
This show is so stirring, inspiring and idealistic. Ruined the real world for me and me for the real world.
I haven't seen this in a few years so in my head the line about Orgasmic Glory got badly truncated, she's fucking PISSED at him!
This story line made no sense. If Toby isn't cleared for the information, then he can't have been officially read in. If he isn't read in, then anything he can pass on is speculation. He didn't commit a crime because he had no idea if his information was true and had no idea if the information was classified. In point of fact it was C.J. that confirmed the existence of the military shuttle to him. SHE was guilty.
As a person who follows the space program closely, I can tell you that, nothing is launched into space without someone taking pictures of it and finding out everything about it. The storyline just falls short. It’s not of the caliber that the show is famous for!
I really never understood the criticism here. It’s completely in character for him to do this. Although my personal head cannon is he took the bullet for CJ
I believe that was Richard Schiff's (Toby's actor) head cannon as well
Toby would take a bullet for CJ, but it's character assassination for CJ to let him.
Not at all. He was idealistic, but could also see reason and didn't throw out pragmatism entirely. You don't sacrifice everything and those things that aren't yours to give at the cost of everyone and everything else.
He would have done exactly this, on principle, for his BROTHER…
Remember what he’s do for the kids he only knew for 5 minutes.
This is a betrayal to the Toby character
Think better storyline would have been toby takeing the fall for someone bigger to protect them and falling on his sword sort of thing,at first with some of the dialouge with bartlet i thought thats the direction they were headed in that jed wanted it leaked so he could save the astronauts on the station but then they went this road and it just never fit
BS storyline. Writers screwed one of the best characters Sorkin made for them.
All the "Sorkin's Toby would have never done that" people are totally missing the mark.
Toby was always a pompous ass who acted high and mighty to his own ruin.
The way he treated his Dad, until Josh intervened.
The way he acted toward Bartlett around MS episode.
That's the reason his wife wouldn't marry him. It wasn't cuz he was "sad" - it's cuz he was an egomaniac.
Yeah I dont think it is as far off the mark as other people think. I also think at this point they were just looking for stuff to do. At least it was more entertaining than saving social security in a week.
Agreed. Toby is actually the most accurate person in the whole show - a political operative field by caffeine and driven by ideology and his own notion of how great he is.
toby was always self-righteous but he would never give out secrets like this, he would yell and argue with Leo/CJ/Bartlett but he wouldn't go running to the media. i'm sorry but the writers missed the mark
Except... Toby treated his father who was a murderer. He treated Bartlett because Bartlett hid his MS. Toby has his reasons. The reason why his wife didn't marry him, it was because he didn't show any compassion.
You know, say all you want about the post-Sorkin episodes, but I never felt Toby was badly written here.
Think about it: he was a bit of a curmudgeon and somewhat dissilusioned about the world and government, which made him both hopeful and a bit cynical. He wants to help the world, which is why he got into government, but he is frustrated because a lot of obviously good policies are always sidelined for special interests and bullshit.
He is the guy that does not mind putting himself in harm´s way to make a point and correct an injustice so secretive and big; he canpt stand the hipocrisy of those in power.
He is a grump because he knows of the evils of the world and is fristrated he can´t correct them all.
So, he dcided to save the astronauts, american or russian, because he felt they did not have to die just to keep a super military weapon hidden.
Never understood why they did this to the Toby character. Just never got it.
It’s completely within character for him. Rampant idealist takes his principles to the ends of the earth and pays the price for it. The problem with sorkin is he never punished people for unrealistic idealism
@@Edawgpilot no its not, the actor wanted to leave so they made this shit up as an excuse to get rid of the character
@@corberus3119 they still handled an exit in a way that makes perfect sense for a raging idealist character like toby
Of all the strange decisions the post-Sorkin writers room ever made, this storyline was by far the worst. They did Toby so incredibly, profoundly dirty and I'm still mad about it.
Six years in prison for treason? She might want to add a zero on to that number.
Treason is a specific crime outline in the Constitution and this ain't it. We've seen plenty of get leniency with mishandling and/or leaking classified documents.
This could not be charged as Treason, no state of war existed and leaking that information gave no aid or comfort to the countries enemies.
Except for what many believe is an open secret.
I’ve seen a lot of great debates in these comments over this show and it’s great storylines and characters, but it brings me great pride to see that the entire fanbase universally agrees that Toby was destroyed by this story choice and it was wrong of the writers to do it
@@OptimysticPessimyst Hi, I don’t think his character was destroyed… Quite a few other commentators seem to agree. It was a shame that they didn’t explore what caused his loyalty to Bartlett to be weaker than the instinct to reveal the secret. It would have been amazing if Bartlett had a chat with him, where he could have explained himself.
I also hated this plotline but forgot how they fucked up Babish too. I had no recollection he'd returned because this has nothing to do with the charm and wit he'd previously had. Also very unclear why White House Council would be acting as a prosecutor...
I think this is a rare instance where they sold out and betrayed a character for a storyline.
I don't know why I just never cared for Toby's chatacter
I'm absolutely convinced that Toby's REAL middle name is Stubborn....Absolutely Convinced!
Covering for CJ - who was out of her depth as COS
No member of the Bartlet Administration deserved jail time more than Toby Ziegler. Bartlet was wrong to pardon him.
This story just sums up how poor TWW became after Sorkin. It lost its soul and humour. Was just another ensemble show at this stage
I guess most commenters don't realize what Toby is actually doing... Toby betrayed no one. He's "falling on the sword". The writing of this is actually incredible... it gave much more depth to an already very deep character, by establishing human behavior found in rare people, but believe whatever you like. They're partially right, Sorkin wouldn't have written Toby that way... he doesn't have the guts or the understanding of humanity! Sorkin is a dramatist of dishonorable conflict; by speaking his truth to manufactured abusive power... he LOVES to bash down things people should be proud of, especially the military and anything not Democratic Socialism... it's all he knows. Under Sorkin, the characters were his impossibly perfect little robots, smarter than everyone else, because they were an extension of him in complete hubris. Under the writing of Wells, Flint, and others, the characters became much better... they became human.
Post sorkin west wing is watchable….barely
The whole bleating "Toby wouldn't do that!" is beyond tiresome.
Learn something about human nature.
Damn skippy he woulda done it.
And yeah, it's also possible he's covering for someone.
Damn skippy he'd do that, too.
given what we've seen of him no he wouldn't, not like this
first :p