The long painful silence between CJ and Tony ( eyes welling with tears) was such a statement during a show that is so full of efficient powerful language. Amazing 👏
I like it when I see the subtle way the President occasional flexes his power. By purposely ignoring CJ’s question about the military space shuttle he was letting her know that info was above her pay grade without having to actually say it.
@@cmj0929that would be considered TS/SCI meaning even having TS clearance wouldn’t be enough, SCI (secret compartmentalized information) requires individuals to be read in in order to maintain limits to who knows what. The phrase “need to know” applies to those who need to know, for those who don’t, you don’t have access. A military shuttle would only be known to select individuals on a need to know basis.
@@romanlegion5837 SCI is actually 'sensitive compartmented information' and I've held very high clearances for more than 20+ years during my service in the USAF. The existence of a secret shuttle would be compartmented into SAP/SAR as well as 'code word' clearance. I've held TS/SCI/CRYPTO/SAP/SAR and I've also held code word clearance into several R&D projects. The price you pay for this level of access is not fun. The FBI practically living in all of your orifices and speaking to people you forgot you ever knew. The persistent credit checks, electronics that are constantly monitored and every action or inaction being questioned. Example: "Last week, when you were having dinner at 'Joe's Diner' you were observed having what appeared to be more than a casual conversation with a waitress by the name of 'Nadia Orlova', who, by the way is an immigrant from the former Soviet Union. You left a tip totaling more than 6x the bill of the coffee and danish you ordered (I dropped a $50 and didn't want the change). Did you discuss any portion of 'project xyz', during your conversation with Ms. Orlova? Are you having or seeking to have an affair or has she offered you sexual favors?" People wonder why we take security so seriously. Why are we so effing paranoid. How come we are so standoffish. Toby's brother would have been a military officer and that institutional paranoia wouldn't have allowed that information to slip out at all. I mean, he must not have liked Toby very much, KNOWING the level of exposure he would have placed him in. But SCI also applies to what you would think is the most trivial of information and is not always TOP SECRET. A lot of SCI information is CONFIDENTIAL or even UNCLASS marked. Would you think the number of MRE's (yes, field rations) that a particular commissary has carries the SCI stamp? How about the number of gallons of de-icer on hand for a particular type of aircraft for a number of certain squadrons? Ooo, here's a good one: socks. Socks?? Yes. I'll let your imagination work on this one for a bit.
Recall back to Ainsley Hayes’ time - when CJ thought she had leaked information to a young reporter and was sleepless. She got an exercise bike into her office. She asked Toby the hypothetical question and later realised she’d done it again. Let’s assume she also asked Greg Brock what such a story would do to the media before an election….. Greg figures out the reality of the space shuttle, then asks Toby for comment as Press Secretary as his second source (which NY Times would demand before printing). Toby realises either he protects CJ and his brother by telling Greg the truth so that the story came from him, or Greg keeps digging, finds a difference second source and publishes - which would leave CJ hanging as the only White House person who spoke to media about it. She leaked indirectly, he then leaked directly to protect her and his brother.
Listen, I get they wanted to end the series on an emotional note: those scenes with Bartlet deciding to pardon Toby are pretty high strung and emotional. However, I disagree vehemently that Toby Ziegler would EVER have done something like that. Even Schiff as noted multiple times that it wasn't in the characters DNA (His exact quote on it is ‘What Was Done to Toby Was Wrong’).
Toby is best fit for the space shuttle leak due to his history of moral idealism, willingness to take risks, and previous actions where he leaked sensitive information for what he saw as the greater good, in this case shuttle safety concerns. Alternatively, as he previously did in a similar situation, he took the blame to protect President Bartlet, following an offscreen intense disagreement over policy and handling the shuttle crisis, Bartlet not showing his usual good judgment (as evidenced by Charlie), leading to Bartlet’s cold treatment. Toby's closing line should have encapsulated his frustration: "A president has to be better than this."
its classic writers needing to create drama so they go for the obvious/hysterical. They should have trusted the show. What made it great were the small dramas.
😊Why would the chief of staff NOT have been briefed on this information to begin with? CJ is in the situation room, so she obviously has the highest clearance. Are we to believe that the only people who know about military space program are the president, NSA personnel, military generals… and the thousands of personnel who work on the secret program?
This is my opinion: President Bartlett gave the nod to the NASA Administrator to give the slip up in front of CJ. Toby was another chess piece in the game. It was the President that was the leak.
Oh crumbs… I don’t eve remember Toby ‘going out’ this way…., but gings! . this was a compelling program… with things the way they are today …. What a show!😊
Its a hell of a thing to have access to information that could save someone or someone's lives AND NOT SAY ANYTHING! Not just every now and then but regularly... To have access to information that is beyond top secrete not every once and a while but everyday.... And yes it does suck that Toby went out this way....
Since you bring this up. What are your thoughts on this exact thing happening during WWII. After Enigma was broken. Not protecting every assest and letting Germany know that their code was broken. To instead appear they got "lucky" at different times. Knowledge is power. But knowing what to do with that Knowledge is the power.
Here's a tip: When you're seeing someone covertly, don't exit the room until you're fully dressed. Plausible deniability, e.g. "We were just talking", "We were going over plans for...", disappears when you leave the room while you're buttoning your shirt or zipping your pants.
I saw this when it originally aired and I assumed it was Toby (and I could see his character doing this). Watching it now, cut together like this, especially with the wordless scene between CJ and Toby, I'm in two minds. They are both such great actors, and their scenes were played with such finesse, that I could totally buy CJ being the leak, and Toby falling on the grenade to protect her. They've always had a brother/sister love relationship. Toby would have done it, and CJs expression could be read as her realising what Toby is doing for her, and for the administration. Or it could've been the other way... Brilliant nuanced performances either way.
great ... another conspiracy theory masquerading as intellect. Just what our post-truth society needs. Toby said: "I did it." Toby explains to his ex - I won't even falsely lay it off on a dead guy. Toby ain't lieing.
Toby: " I thought about coming as Julius Rosenberg." Ironically he was the conscience of the White House. He knew the difference between right and wrong.
No, he just had his own definition of right and wrong and wouldn’t tolerate different points of view. From a military secrecy and national defense point of view, it’s right to keep it a secret and wrong to expose it
@Edawgpilot Was it wrong to expose the secret that nsa was spying, en masse, and illegally, on USA citizens within the USA ? When doing bad things to your own citizens, it is important to slap a "Secret" or "Classified" label on it. What they don't know, I can't get convicted on.
I'll say it again, this is totally something Toby would've done. He was the most arrogant person on the show, he always thought he knew better than everyone and was confident he was right to do whatever he wanted.
Toby was arrogant, but he was never disloyal. Do you remember his speech to the staff about them being a team? In all his time in the White House, he never betrayed the team. He would have at least duked it out with POTUS heavily before leaping to leaking the story. That would have been way more believable and a better story than this whole suspense "who did it?" storyline.
@@karmicbreath I'm not so sure he would've. He was smart enough to know there was no possible way the prez would go for it and that him leaking it was literally the only way it would get out
This kinda makes me think that CJ wasn’t aware she was the leak because of how little sleep she’d been getting, but Toby knew, and fell on the sword for her by claiming to be the leak so the Chief of Staff wouldn’t be stuck in a trial and could actually focus on helping the President
This is either entirely true, or CJ did it on purpose and Toby covered for her anyway because he knew people would assume his brother had leaked it to him. I had suspected that the conversation at Toby's place near the end was going to be where they revealed this. At least it worked out in the end, since the President and Toby are on speaking terms in the epilogue shown at the start of the season.
I never liked the character of Will as a replacement of Sam. He feels a bit light compared to Josh, Sam and Toby. The actor place his part really well though.
It made sense that Toby Ziegler was the one who leaked the secret military shuttle in The West Wing for several reasons tied to his character and his motivations: Deep sense of morality and responsibility: Toby is portrayed throughout the series as someone with a strong ethical compass. He often struggles with the tension between government secrecy and transparency, and he feels a profound duty to uphold democratic principles. Leaking the shuttle could have stemmed from his belief that the public had a right to know about such significant military developments, particularly if they posed potential ethical concerns. Personal disillusionment: In the final season, Toby becomes increasingly disillusioned with the administration and the direction of government decisions. His relationship with the administration deteriorates, making it plausible that he would act out in a way that he believed aligned with the greater good, even if it was outside the law. Toby's past behavior: Toby has always been one of the most principled and idealistic characters on the show. He has clashed with others when he felt that policies or actions compromised the administration's integrity or values. His decision to leak the shuttle fits his long-established tendency to make morally-driven decisions, even when they are personally or professionally costly. The leak was framed as a desperate act: The revelation of the military shuttle was presented as a decision made out of a sense of hopelessness and frustration with the political system, which aligns with Toby's character at that point. He felt a need to do something drastic in the face of what he perceived as moral compromises, and leaking the shuttle was his way of taking a stand. In short, Toby's character arc, his growing disillusionment, and his deeply held convictions about transparency and morality made him a fitting choice for the character who would leak the secret
@@stephencronin1080 - I can understand all that, but I cannot understand what good it would do the public to know about this secret shuttle. It is a given that all governments have secrets, so was Toby so innocent and blueyed that he believed (t)his government would be different?
@@JanBruunAndersen There was a leak aboard the ISS and no other shuttle was available to go up and fix the issue. It was strongly implied that the government would rather let those astronauts die then reveal the existance of a millitary shuttle.
I honestly think Bartlet and Toby had something to do with it. There is a scene from Season 7, Episode 4 (Mr Frost) were Toby and Bartlet discuss the subpoenas and Bartlet says the investigation into the leak is in CJ, and Toby says they have it wrong. And then that was the end of their discussion. That moment was like an unspoken nod, to get this under control. Just my opinion though.
It always annoys me to no end that they try to keep the secret FROM THE PRESIDENT’S CHIEF OF STAFF AND NUMBER ONE ADVISOR Like that’s just terrible writing. It’s something that CJ ABSOLUTELY should know about.
why the President never replaced that snotty guy from the DoD I will never know. As the leader of the party and the President is he really not able to decide who the Cabinet will be?
I think it was really shitty of the press to nail Will with all those questions and be sulky when he didn't answer them. There's an ongoing investigation. I'm not going to let you try to trick me into undermining the investigation by leaking its details. Next question please!
the issue is how common is the name Ziegler? If the shuttle was a military classified project it is safe to assume that civilian astronauts would not be aware of it either. Additionally, it's probable that Ziegler did not disclose his brother as part of his WH checks.
Toby was covering for someone - his brother likely revealed the shuttle information before his suicide to someone who then spilled the beans to Greg Brock. Toby knew who it was and took the rap to protect his brothers family and from CJ getting blamed.
No, It was CJ. Just like the US Attorney at the end said, CJ brought up a hypothetical question related to a military shuttle, the only problem is that it wasn't hypothetical and CJ didn't consider if Toby had clearance or not before asking the hypothetical question.
Toby was the most arrogant, my-shit-doesn't-stink, holier-than-thou character on the whole show. I don't know what y'all are on about: this arc totally fits him.
why do the comments in here hate Toby so much omfg. i love that sad little man. and i think this plot line was dumb as hell. i think under the right circumstances i could see both CJ and Toby being the leak, but I don't think it would play out like this.
The scene between Charlie and Bartlet never sat well with me. It’s a great scene, and j guess this was the beginning of Bartlers old man statesman arc but still seemed a little out of character. It was his delivery more than anything that rubbed me wrong.
@@KnataGuy no need for insults. Richard schiff may disagree, but that doesn’t make him right. Toby is holier-than-thou, thinks his shit doesn’t stink, idealist, and his radical candor often gets him into trouble
So...is...there a reason Toby did this? A half hour and I understand absolutely nothing about this entire arc. Toby seemingly leaks random classified info, shrugs and goes "yeah I did it" and is totally willing to just let the entire staff implode over the consequences of it?
Toby was always a self-important sanctimonious condescending character for the entirety of the series. This was just the culmination of it. Bartlett should never have pardoned him.
Charlie's exit creates a great scene, but why didnt he get totally ready to exit her room quickly? Shirt untucked, putting on watch ... asking to be caught. Illogical
Performance pay for teachers . Perfect Obama era BS idea. And I’m a liberal! Performance pay means teachers will only want high achievers. Maybe that works for private school but it’s unethical in public school.
It was known that Toby was the leak because his brother told him about the spacecraft. Toby's brother was an astronaut and was privy to the info about this ship somehow. I've been looking for the scene where Bartlett actually berates Toby and that even if people outside thinks he's a hero for saving the astronauts who were brought back home, Bartlett will not be one of them.
This is my headcanon. It makes it more poetic, and fit better with their characters. CJ was just as moralistic as Toby was, but she was also more impulsive about it. Also, the character flaw of CJ allowing her friend to take the fall so her star could continue to rise would riddle her with shame and regret that might've been played out beautifully, and when asked why Toby could say to balance out his own shame for not having the courage to leak the info himself
Because when I think about the Space Shuttle leak, I think of Charlie sneaking out of Zoe's bedroom. 🙄 The only thing stupider than the AI running this channel is the people who thought it was a good idea to put an AI in charge of this channel or anything else.
I think she is supposed to be 17 in season 1 because during the MS reveal, Charlie talks to Leo about the medical forms for Georgetown, and says that you have to have a parent sign it if the applicant is under 18. So it's feasible that she was 20 or 21 when she graduated at the end of season 4.
How many wrong discussions of the leak will there be? I believe what I've read in the shorts. That Toby's brother leaked to Toby and Toby covered for him to protect his memory. See after 30:00
Way to not look suspicious, Toby - 4:50 And not for nothing - how is it Toby gets fired and indicted for making this public - but the dipshit Kelwick accidentally mentions a ‘codeword classified’ secret and faces no repercussions? Then Leo and Bartlet pretend it never happened - it’s a ridiculous sequence - a ridiculous storyline, unworthy of tWW. Toby doesn’t like the heat in CJ - which is why he confessed, right? So why put her in that incredibly awkward and legally precarious situation of telling her in private? Great dramatic moment 🙄but makes no sense This is when the show began its death spiral.
I saw this when it originally aired and I assumed it was Toby (and I could see his character doing this). Watching it now, cut together like this, especially with the wordless scene between CJ and Toby, I'm in two minds. They are both such great actors, and their scenes were played with such finesse, that I could totally buy CJ being the leak, and Toby falling on the grenade to protect her. They've always had a brother/sister love relationship. Toby would have done it, and CJs expression could be read as her realising what Toby is doing for her, and for the administration. Or it could've been the other way... Brilliant nuanced performances either way.
Rewatching it now and I can see how CJ could be the leak. She got the champagne out and said that she was about to get arrested. The only thing that doesn't fully add up is how quick CJ would then accept Toby taking the fall.
@@blackcat4859 Two things did it for me. CJ telling the reporter to name his source which I don't think she would have done if it wasn't her. Also the look she shares with Toby when he tells her he confessed needs no dialogue. Janney and Schiff don't need no words.
That scene with CJ and Toby, caused him to crack. Hee was the main leal When he finds out the consequences were more than saving the astronauts lives, nd that it was effecting CJs mental health, he confessed. She doesnt recall being any part of it. Im still unsure who leaked it to Toby, probably his astronaut brother.
I just remembered one of the last scenes oI Bartlett in the Oval office. The paper with the pardon for Toby on the desk and he waits until the last minute to sign it. If they set Toby up or it was actually CJ that leaked it wouldn't be that hard for him to sign the pardon
The long painful silence between CJ and Tony ( eyes welling with tears) was such a statement during a show that is so full of efficient powerful language.
Amazing 👏
Toby; not Tony
20:08
@@kevwin1actually, it's Cody. Cody Fiegler.
After all, C. J. had realized that Toby was taking the fall for something he didn’t do.
@@thomash.schwed3662 Toby had done it, what do you mean?
I like it when I see the subtle way the President occasional flexes his power. By purposely ignoring CJ’s question about the military space shuttle he was letting her know that info was above her pay grade without having to actually say it.
Or maybe telling her that it exists without actually saying so
yep
@@JessePalmer-cp1gmthat part, because I’d think she’d have as much clearance as anyone else Top Secret if not more
@@cmj0929that would be considered TS/SCI meaning even having TS clearance wouldn’t be enough, SCI (secret compartmentalized information) requires individuals to be read in in order to maintain limits to who knows what. The phrase “need to know” applies to those who need to know, for those who don’t, you don’t have access.
A military shuttle would only be known to select individuals on a need to know basis.
@@romanlegion5837 SCI is actually 'sensitive compartmented information' and I've held very high clearances for more than 20+ years during my service in the USAF. The existence of a secret shuttle would be compartmented into SAP/SAR as well as 'code word' clearance. I've held TS/SCI/CRYPTO/SAP/SAR and I've also held code word clearance into several R&D projects. The price you pay for this level of access is not fun. The FBI practically living in all of your orifices and speaking to people you forgot you ever knew. The persistent credit checks, electronics that are constantly monitored and every action or inaction being questioned. Example: "Last week, when you were having dinner at 'Joe's Diner' you were observed having what appeared to be more than a casual conversation with a waitress by the name of 'Nadia Orlova', who, by the way is an immigrant from the former Soviet Union. You left a tip totaling more than 6x the bill of the coffee and danish you ordered (I dropped a $50 and didn't want the change). Did you discuss any portion of 'project xyz', during your conversation with Ms. Orlova? Are you having or seeking to have an affair or has she offered you sexual favors?"
People wonder why we take security so seriously. Why are we so effing paranoid. How come we are so standoffish. Toby's brother would have been a military officer and that institutional paranoia wouldn't have allowed that information to slip out at all. I mean, he must not have liked Toby very much, KNOWING the level of exposure he would have placed him in.
But SCI also applies to what you would think is the most trivial of information and is not always TOP SECRET. A lot of SCI information is CONFIDENTIAL or even UNCLASS marked. Would you think the number of MRE's (yes, field rations) that a particular commissary has carries the SCI stamp? How about the number of gallons of de-icer on hand for a particular type of aircraft for a number of certain squadrons? Ooo, here's a good one: socks. Socks?? Yes. I'll let your imagination work on this one for a bit.
You know you are in trouble when Agent Skinner from the X-Files is asking you about secret space programs.
Charlie and Bartetts relationship is some of the best in tv history
The President: “Good evening Charlie.”
Me: JUMP OUT THE WINDOW, CHARLIE! DON’T TURN AROUND, JUST RUN AND JUUUUUUUUUMP!!!
you skipped the most important scene , the one where the president does not let Toby resign, he has to fire him.
Or the scenes where the President knows it was Toby and drops subtle hints to him,
"A lot of people are going to think you're a hero. I just wanted you to know: I won't be one of them."
@@miketurcotte7477Which ones were they? It's been a while since I've watched it in its entirety.
@@Starcraft88888 The president is a fool, then
for me it's "I'm just glad things are back to normal..." and then they see Toby's office being emptied
I always loved the SecDef’s “The answer to that would be ‘yes’.” in response to CJ’s line of questioning about the space bomber.
Recall back to Ainsley Hayes’ time - when CJ thought she had leaked information to a young reporter and was sleepless. She got an exercise bike into her office.
She asked Toby the hypothetical question and later realised she’d done it again.
Let’s assume she also asked Greg Brock what such a story would do to the media before an election…..
Greg figures out the reality of the space shuttle, then asks Toby for comment as Press Secretary as his second source (which NY Times would demand before printing). Toby realises either he protects CJ and his brother by telling Greg the truth so that the story came from him, or Greg keeps digging, finds a difference second source and publishes - which would leave CJ hanging as the only White House person who spoke to media about it.
She leaked indirectly, he then leaked directly to protect her and his brother.
Listen, I get they wanted to end the series on an emotional note: those scenes with Bartlet deciding to pardon Toby are pretty high strung and emotional. However, I disagree vehemently that Toby Ziegler would EVER have done something like that. Even Schiff as noted multiple times that it wasn't in the characters DNA (His exact quote on it is ‘What Was Done to Toby Was Wrong’).
Toby should have given that final speech to Merrick Garland.
Or, to Robert Bork after the Saturday Night Massacre or to Bill Barr during the pardoning of the Iran-Contra guys (including Ollie North).
Toby is best fit for the space shuttle leak due to his history of moral idealism, willingness to take risks, and previous actions where he leaked sensitive information for what he saw as the greater good, in this case shuttle safety concerns. Alternatively, as he previously did in a similar situation, he took the blame to protect President Bartlet, following an offscreen intense disagreement over policy and handling the shuttle crisis, Bartlet not showing his usual good judgment (as evidenced by Charlie), leading to Bartlet’s cold treatment. Toby's closing line should have encapsulated his frustration: "A president has to be better than this."
Some of these episodes were strongly written but ‘Toby’ shouldn’t have gone out this way.
And how would you have written Toby out?
@@aph1976 was no need to write the character out as the characters came to the end of the term, he along with CJ were left to wind up the staff.
I hear ya, but it was so in keeping with Toby. So fitting. And his fight with Josh later on couldn't have happened without it.
@@djd8305 the fight with Josh was in response to his brothers suicide so I think it would have still worked.
its classic writers needing to create drama so they go for the obvious/hysterical. They should have trusted the show. What made it great were the small dramas.
😊Why would the chief of staff NOT have been briefed on this information to begin with? CJ is in the situation room, so she obviously has the highest clearance. Are we to believe that the only people who know about military space program are the president, NSA personnel, military generals… and the thousands of personnel who work on the secret program?
Toby's mistake was not to get Bartlett to appoint a superincompetent judge to supervise the case.
This is my opinion: President Bartlett gave the nod to the NASA Administrator to give the slip up in front of CJ. Toby was another chess piece in the game. It was the President that was the leak.
That would be a pretty brutal thing to do by Bartlett. So he first wanted to set up CJ and then let Toby take the fall knowing that it wasn't him?
"Are we weaponizing space?"....well we do have the Space Force now.
No doubt that The Space Force Fleet is painted Orange too!🤣
No we don't. We have a fifth of the Air Force that now has a new shoulder patch. Nothing else has changed.
@@Rambam1776 Of course we don't! That was the whole idea of tcdan's mocking statement. The Orange Twinkie #45 was just making chit up as usual.
"Space Force" run by a freaking toddler hopped up on Sunny D.😅😅😅❤
@@Motherofone2 And Adderall 🤣
I love how the big MAN won’t look at CJ while he talks, but her big brain eventually turns his face to her.
Oh crumbs… I don’t eve remember Toby ‘going out’ this way….,
but gings! .
this was a compelling program… with things the way they are
today …. What a show!😊
Why was the Charlie scene in here 😂
Its a hell of a thing to have access to information that could save someone or someone's lives AND NOT SAY ANYTHING! Not just every now and then but regularly... To have access to information that is beyond top secrete not every once and a while but everyday.... And yes it does suck that Toby went out this way....
Since you bring this up. What are your thoughts on this exact thing happening during WWII. After Enigma was broken. Not protecting every assest and letting Germany know that their code was broken. To instead appear they got "lucky" at different times. Knowledge is power. But knowing what to do with that Knowledge is the power.
richard schiff is adamant that no way toby would've leaked, i agree, i imagine toby fell on his sword to cover for CJ, the real leaker
You needed to add the shouting scene with ITS A FEDERAL CRIME
17:27-19:06 is, IMVHO one of the best post-Sorkin 6/7 scenes.
🤔Werner von Braun "I Aim for the Stars" should have said "And sometimes I hit London" classic line
Mort Sahl joked ..
Here's a tip: When you're seeing someone covertly, don't exit the room until you're fully dressed. Plausible deniability, e.g. "We were just talking", "We were going over plans for...", disappears when you leave the room while you're buttoning your shirt or zipping your pants.
Charlie was about to take a “walk of pride” in front of Secret Service. 😂
Never shoulda killed Glen in Walking Dead, never shoulda done this to Toby in West Wing.
I Love Watching West Wing
TV Show !
I Subscribe related Politics
I saw this when it originally aired and I assumed it was Toby (and I could see his character doing this). Watching it now, cut together like this, especially with the wordless scene between CJ and Toby, I'm in two minds. They are both such great actors, and their scenes were played with such finesse, that I could totally buy CJ being the leak, and Toby falling on the grenade to protect her. They've always had a brother/sister love relationship. Toby would have done it, and CJs expression could be read as her realising what Toby is doing for her, and for the administration. Or it could've been the other way... Brilliant nuanced performances either way.
great ... another conspiracy theory masquerading as intellect. Just what our post-truth society needs. Toby said: "I did it."
Toby explains to his ex - I won't even falsely lay it off on a dead guy. Toby ain't lieing.
"Are we weaponizing space?" They didn't say no.
Toby: " I thought about coming as Julius Rosenberg." Ironically he was the conscience of the White House. He knew the difference between right and wrong.
I don't understand the irony. Rosenberg was a Soviet spy. His treason wasn't conscience, it was despicable.
No, he just had his own definition of right and wrong and wouldn’t tolerate different points of view. From a military secrecy and national defense point of view, it’s right to keep it a secret and wrong to expose it
@Edawgpilot Was it wrong to expose the secret that nsa was spying, en masse, and illegally, on USA citizens within the USA ?
When doing bad things to your own citizens, it is important to slap a "Secret" or "Classified" label on it.
What they don't know, I can't get convicted on.
@@EdawgpilotOf course, you’re assuming that Toby was the source of the leak.
@@thomash.schwed3662 he was. Its completely within his character
I'll say it again, this is totally something Toby would've done. He was the most arrogant person on the show, he always thought he knew better than everyone and was confident he was right to do whatever he wanted.
EXACTLY
Toby was arrogant, but he was never disloyal. Do you remember his speech to the staff about them being a team? In all his time in the White House, he never betrayed the team. He would have at least duked it out with POTUS heavily before leaping to leaking the story. That would have been way more believable and a better story than this whole suspense "who did it?" storyline.
@@karmicbreath I'm not so sure he would've. He was smart enough to know there was no possible way the prez would go for it and that him leaking it was literally the only way it would get out
@@karmicbreath never disloyal? What about all those times he openly defied Leo and Bartlett?
@@Edawgpilot do you have an example?
This kinda makes me think that CJ wasn’t aware she was the leak because of how little sleep she’d been getting, but Toby knew, and fell on the sword for her by claiming to be the leak so the Chief of Staff wouldn’t be stuck in a trial and could actually focus on helping the President
This is either entirely true, or CJ did it on purpose and Toby covered for her anyway because he knew people would assume his brother had leaked it to him. I had suspected that the conversation at Toby's place near the end was going to be where they revealed this. At least it worked out in the end, since the President and Toby are on speaking terms in the epilogue shown at the start of the season.
ScrewCJ
I hate Toby hurt Josh's campaign
If he was to fo. Say it!.
Bastard .Toby Mr. Purity. Don't skill against the WH and Josh
I never liked the character of Will as a replacement of Sam. He feels a bit light compared to Josh, Sam and Toby.
The actor place his part really well though.
Someone please fill me in. What was the supposed reason for Toby leaking information about this secret shuttle?
It made sense that Toby Ziegler was the one who leaked the secret military shuttle in The West Wing for several reasons tied to his character and his motivations:
Deep sense of morality and responsibility: Toby is portrayed throughout the series as someone with a strong ethical compass. He often struggles with the tension between government secrecy and transparency, and he feels a profound duty to uphold democratic principles. Leaking the shuttle could have stemmed from his belief that the public had a right to know about such significant military developments, particularly if they posed potential ethical concerns.
Personal disillusionment: In the final season, Toby becomes increasingly disillusioned with the administration and the direction of government decisions. His relationship with the administration deteriorates, making it plausible that he would act out in a way that he believed aligned with the greater good, even if it was outside the law.
Toby's past behavior: Toby has always been one of the most principled and idealistic characters on the show. He has clashed with others when he felt that policies or actions compromised the administration's integrity or values. His decision to leak the shuttle fits his long-established tendency to make morally-driven decisions, even when they are personally or professionally costly.
The leak was framed as a desperate act: The revelation of the military shuttle was presented as a decision made out of a sense of hopelessness and frustration with the political system, which aligns with Toby's character at that point. He felt a need to do something drastic in the face of what he perceived as moral compromises, and leaking the shuttle was his way of taking a stand.
In short, Toby's character arc, his growing disillusionment, and his deeply held convictions about transparency and morality made him a fitting choice for the character who would leak the secret
@@stephencronin1080 - I can understand all that, but I cannot understand what good it would do the public to know about this secret shuttle. It is a given that all governments have secrets, so was Toby so innocent and blueyed that he believed (t)his government would be different?
@@stephencronin1080 Hi ChatGPT
@@JanBruunAndersen There was a leak aboard the ISS and no other shuttle was available to go up and fix the issue. It was strongly implied that the government would rather let those astronauts die then reveal the existance of a millitary shuttle.
@@stephencronin1080 If I wanted to know what ChatGPT thought I would ask it myself
I honestly think Bartlet and Toby had something to do with it. There is a scene from Season 7, Episode 4 (Mr Frost) were Toby and Bartlet discuss the subpoenas and Bartlet says the investigation into the leak is in CJ, and Toby says they have it wrong. And then that was the end of their discussion. That moment was like an unspoken nod, to get this under control. Just my opinion though.
It always annoys me to no end that they try to keep the secret FROM THE PRESIDENT’S CHIEF OF STAFF AND NUMBER ONE ADVISOR
Like that’s just terrible writing. It’s something that CJ ABSOLUTELY should know about.
Why all the calls from CJ office to Brock?
1:16 TIL that Elisabeth Moss was on TWW - and that her character was getting it on with Charlie ... I should catch up 🤣
their relationship was a big thing in season one!
10:39 Josh has been up all night, doing coke and rewriting the messaging plan. Which is how most presidential campaigns work.
why the President never replaced that snotty guy from the DoD I will never know. As the leader of the party and the President is he really not able to decide who the Cabinet will be?
Toby 😭
There were times I wonder if Toby took the Fall for CJ.
No. He took the fall for the President. That's why he pardon him in the end. It was for all is screw ups. President call in a chip.
I think it was really shitty of the press to nail Will with all those questions and be sulky when he didn't answer them. There's an ongoing investigation. I'm not going to let you try to trick me into undermining the investigation by leaking its details. Next question please!
NO ONE connected Toby Zielger and the astronaut named Ziegler? No one thinks to wonder about it, or do any homework? That's just....not believable.
the issue is how common is the name Ziegler? If the shuttle was a military classified project it is safe to assume that civilian astronauts would not be aware of it either. Additionally, it's probable that Ziegler did not disclose his brother as part of his WH checks.
Reporters would defo would be looking into the astronauts' lives.
Toby was covering for someone - his brother likely revealed the shuttle information before his suicide to someone who then spilled the beans to Greg Brock. Toby knew who it was and took the rap to protect his brothers family and from CJ getting blamed.
No, It was CJ. Just like the US Attorney at the end said, CJ brought up a hypothetical question related to a military shuttle, the only problem is that it wasn't hypothetical and CJ didn't consider if Toby had clearance or not before asking the hypothetical question.
So did Toby do it or not?
Great TV
Toby let people through through rough.
How was Toby's attorney able to get into the White House and to the Roosevelt room without an escort or permission from Toby.
I don’t think Toby did it. I think he admitted to it to protect CJ
If there wasn't a leak would the astronauts die because it would of remained secret? 😅 That would be criminal.
Probably, as there would be no way for them to get to them with the military shuttle without a bunch of other countries finding out.
Ah, good point, but who would be the fall gay or gal? Who gets brought up on charges for their deaths?
Did you hear about Pluto? That's messed up...
Toby was the most arrogant, my-shit-doesn't-stink, holier-than-thou character on the whole show. I don't know what y'all are on about: this arc totally fits him.
EXACTLY
Totally agree!
lol finally someone with some sense
I agree and hate it
I agree with you. Completely. Glad you said it, I was about to say the same.... he got overly preachy.
Could there be more ads?
This failed to include when they told the President and his best line
CJ never soud've never talked to zToby
The writers did Toby dirty with this story arc. His character is such an idiot.
why do the comments in here hate Toby so much omfg. i love that sad little man. and i think this plot line was dumb as hell. i think under the right circumstances i could see both CJ and Toby being the leak, but I don't think it would play out like this.
An extraordinary omission not to include the firing scene with Bartlett, which kinda devalues the whole video to be honest.
The scene between Charlie and Bartlet never sat well with me. It’s a great scene, and j guess this was the beginning of Bartlers old man statesman arc but still seemed a little out of character. It was his delivery more than anything that rubbed me wrong.
Worst part is that cj deff leaked it and toby took the hit
If toby did do this, it was a little bit to teach Josh a lesson
I hate everything about this story line. Poor Richard Schiff…
Why? Its completely within Toby’s character as the holier-than-thou, I-know-better, idealism over everything else radical that he is
@@Edawgpilot well, because it was the opposite of what you just said. Lol. Richard Schiff hated it too so yeah…
@@KnataGuy you clearly don’t understand Toby’s character…remember he’s the guy always trying to hold his own personal ethical compass over Bartlett
@@Edawgpilot so, you know more than the guy who played the character? K. You have no friends, do you…lol
@@KnataGuy no need for insults. Richard schiff may disagree, but that doesn’t make him right. Toby is holier-than-thou, thinks his shit doesn’t stink, idealist, and his radical candor often gets him into trouble
So...is...there a reason Toby did this? A half hour and I understand absolutely nothing about this entire arc. Toby seemingly leaks random classified info, shrugs and goes "yeah I did it" and is totally willing to just let the entire staff implode over the consequences of it?
Toby was always a self-important sanctimonious condescending character for the entirety of the series. This was just the culmination of it.
Bartlett should never have pardoned him.
While it’s a shame they did this to Toby I do think it was fantastic television.
Senator, do you also swear to tell the truth?
Charlie's exit creates a great scene, but why didnt he get totally ready to exit her room quickly? Shirt untucked, putting on watch ... asking to be caught. Illogical
I always liked CJ, but her interactions with Will after Toby was fired were frustrating. I hated it.
Josh was pretty wrong to call them like that.
A kindly old well meaning president and a relentless assholic Republican Congress. It's almost profetic.
Which country run by corrupt oligarchs was Bartlet getting his money from?
they did Toby dirty with this one. It was so out of character.
It’s completely within character for him as the holier-than-thou, tunnel-visioned chief idealist of the group
Totally something Toby WOULD do.
Toby was truly the one unlikeable character throughout this show.
Performance pay for teachers . Perfect Obama era BS idea. And I’m a liberal! Performance pay means teachers will only want high achievers. Maybe that works for private school but it’s unethical in public school.
This was so badly written and marked the point the show started to go downhill. Toby totally out of character
Nothing launches from Vandenberg without being seen by half of California.
This whole storyline was stupid.
I wondered about that myself. Just didn't make sense.
Not if it’s a night launch
CJ was the leak. Toby took the bullet.
I dont think so
It was known that Toby was the leak because his brother told him about the spacecraft. Toby's brother was an astronaut and was privy to the info about this ship somehow. I've been looking for the scene where Bartlett actually berates Toby and that even if people outside thinks he's a hero for saving the astronauts who were brought back home, Bartlett will not be one of them.
This is my headcanon. It makes it more poetic, and fit better with their characters. CJ was just as moralistic as Toby was, but she was also more impulsive about it. Also, the character flaw of CJ allowing her friend to take the fall so her star could continue to rise would riddle her with shame and regret that might've been played out beautifully, and when asked why Toby could say to balance out his own shame for not having the courage to leak the info himself
CJ was the leak
Nope. Go to 21:20 where cj gives Toby a “ how could you” look
such clunky awful dialouge. post sorkin is total dogshit. aaron called Richard :"i heard whats happening to your character and I'm sorry"
Because when I think about the Space Shuttle leak, I think of Charlie sneaking out of Zoe's bedroom. 🙄 The only thing stupider than the AI running this channel is the people who thought it was a good idea to put an AI in charge of this channel or anything else.
Nope.
Looks like the country could have used an eccentric billionaire who could shoot rockets into orbit. Too bad they didn't have one back then.
Toby was always my least favorite character in West Wing
No accounting for lack of taste.
😅Call Elon!
Aaron Sorkin couldn't create a character as shallow as that.
How old was Bartlett's daughter? Hmm, Charlie was having a relationship with a minor.
She was enrolled in college, and I believe was already taking courses. I believe she was 20?
And that was in s1
She graduated from college in season 4, so she's probably 24-25, somewhere in there
I think she is supposed to be 17 in season 1 because during the MS reveal, Charlie talks to Leo about the medical forms for Georgetown, and says that you have to have a parent sign it if the applicant is under 18. So it's feasible that she was 20 or 21 when she graduated at the end of season 4.
She was born in 1980 and so was Charlie. They're the exact same age. Even so, her character was 19 the first time she appeared in the show
How many wrong discussions of the leak will there be? I believe what I've read in the shorts. That Toby's brother leaked to Toby and Toby covered for him to protect his memory. See after 30:00
Way to not look suspicious, Toby - 4:50
And not for nothing - how is it Toby gets fired and indicted for making this public - but the dipshit Kelwick accidentally mentions a ‘codeword classified’ secret and faces no repercussions?
Then Leo and Bartlet pretend it never happened - it’s a ridiculous sequence - a ridiculous storyline, unworthy of tWW.
Toby doesn’t like the heat in CJ - which is why he confessed, right? So why put her in that incredibly awkward and legally precarious situation of telling her in private? Great dramatic moment 🙄but makes no sense
This is when the show began its death spiral.
I saw this when it originally aired and I assumed it was Toby (and I could see his character doing this). Watching it now, cut together like this, especially with the wordless scene between CJ and Toby, I'm in two minds. They are both such great actors, and their scenes were played with such finesse, that I could totally buy CJ being the leak, and Toby falling on the grenade to protect her. They've always had a brother/sister love relationship. Toby would have done it, and CJs expression could be read as her realising what Toby is doing for her, and for the administration. Or it could've been the other way... Brilliant nuanced performances either way.
Great acting that leaves it up to the viewer. I agree with your theory about it being CJ though.
Rewatching it now and I can see how CJ could be the leak. She got the champagne out and said that she was about to get arrested. The only thing that doesn't fully add up is how quick CJ would then accept Toby taking the fall.
@@blackcat4859 Two things did it for me. CJ telling the reporter to name his source which I don't think she would have done if it wasn't her. Also the look she shares with Toby when he tells her he confessed needs no dialogue. Janney and Schiff don't need no words.
That scene with CJ and Toby, caused him to crack. Hee was the main leal When he finds out the consequences were more than saving the astronauts lives, nd that it was effecting CJs mental health, he confessed. She doesnt recall being any part of it. Im still unsure who leaked it to Toby, probably his astronaut brother.
I just remembered one of the last scenes oI Bartlett in the Oval office. The paper with the pardon for Toby on the desk and he waits until the last minute to sign it. If they set Toby up or it was actually CJ that leaked it wouldn't be that hard for him to sign the pardon