What sort of Professional Pilots repeatedly ignore ice warnings, low speed warnings and degraded flight warnings?? Absolutely unbelievable and disgusting. Criminal.
I'll bet they uncover that this wasn't the first time they turned the deicing on and off and ignored due to "system malfunction". They probably got lucky on previous flights by descending before performance fully degraded.
IT IS WELL KNOWN that the ATR's Achilles heal is ice - There have been several terrible crashes because of it - However I believe if the pilots took the air speed and icing more seriously, this plane would not have crashed - ATR is still manufacturing the 72-600 and I believe they have protocols regarding ice as they are well aware of the problem - So sad, those poor people must have been terrified when they entered the flat spin - RIP to all of them - ALSO WELL DONE AGAIN ON A GREAT VIDEO - So realistic - Even the sound of ATC and the propellers
The boots on the ATR are ANTI ice,to prevent ice accumulation. They are not designed to remove ice build up. They must be on continuously in icing conditions. I am a retired ATR and and Fokker F27 captain.
Yes captain but was it not a mistaken but widespread old school belief that you had to wait till there was quarter of inch ice or something before deploying the boots and I believe that’s still pervades in a number of pilots. Had you encountered that in your career?
@ so heated leading edges are on straight turbo fan aircraft as there is enough bleed air to heat them. Turbo-props have inflated boots- no heating involved and they expand to crack the ice rather than the heated leading edges which melt the ice. It used to be , as you say ,you didn’t turn them on till the ice was there and it cracked the ice however the modern school of thought and design planning sees them on when you initially encounter icing conditions and the cracking end buildup goes on in a cycle and will potentially keep the aircraft ice free , but in major icing, Most aircraft of this type require you to descend to escape the conditions.
Our Lockheed P-3s are turboprop. No boots here. Just bleed air heating wing leading edge anti ice. Leading edge of the props, and both horizontal and vertical stabs, are electrically heated.
It would only be 2 minutes if they were at 48,000 feet lol. They were at 17,000 feet, so it was about half a minute, but the point is still valid. It probably SEEMED like 2 minutes (or more).
A vertical speed of appx 270 mph while in a flat spin....well...you got your airspeed back...sorry about the current angle of attack and all. Best wishes on your flat spin recovery attempt...you have about 40 seconds...
@@1994CPK panicing and screaming in fear obviously. an on going accident like this where you are aware that you are about to die in a few seconds isnt like sitting in the chair at home, where you are calm enough and have time to think about your situation in life etc. if they would have known minutes ago what is about to happen, they would have time to hug each other or prey etc. but not in this case. they where held hostage in this situation, which is a pure torture for the mind until the end obviously. some family members might have held hands to each other but more as a protective reaction, hoping it would give them some protection against the impact.
I was on a mid sized commuter turboprop when the ice built up very heavily on the wings. I was sitting where I could see it and told the stewardess to please inform the captain that there was a heavy ice build up. It was much worse than the animation here, like well over a quarter inch, maybe even more. She refused to alert the captain because I was just a dumb passenger and "he knows what he is doing". She was an idiot and could have got us all killed.
She was. That is not what you say to a passenger - if those were her exact words. A quick trip to the cabin come back with a "Thank you, the Captain is aware and informed me that it is well within the normal operating parameters of the aircraft." Either that or have a terrified passenger who will then pass that terror along to anyone who'll listen to him,
I had to advise on a suspect fuel leak. The message was passed to th pilots this made them aware. They where able to sort the problem. Got a thank you from them. @@nickv4073
I wonder why she thinks airlines require passenger shades remain up during pre-flight and takeoff. So we can see the pretty concrete? Too bad you couldn’t have slipped her a note with Aloha 243 written on it. Maybe it would’ve hit home when she saw that one of her own had gotten sucked out and remains unfound to this day.
How many warnings did they need. They should have demanded descent from fl 170 immediately. And the de-icer fault warning should have been enough to land at the nearest alternate or turn back ??
This is such a sad accident that never should have happened. These two pilots have a reasonable amount of experience between them and should have understood that they needed to change altitude to get out of the icing (a change of 5000' will usually get you out of it) or explain to ATC that your building ice and need to start a slow descent to maintain airspeed. What's not depicted in the video, is the appearance that they were likely in and out of cloud for most of the flight picking up what appears as Rime-ice before the aerodynamic stall occurs while in the turn. I'm fortunate to have about 1000 hrs in the ATR 72, and I've experienced these warnings about icing. The "ice detect" which happens all the time with just a hint of ice buildup....and once just prior to top of descent we got the "ice detect" and a few minutes later the "cruise speed low." We tried restoring airspeed by increasing prop RPM, but that didn't work, so we arranged with ATC a slow descent as we were about 50 miles away from the normal top of decent point and restored cruise speed that way. RIP to all who lost their lives...
This crash was heartbreaking 💔 it so reminds me of American 4184 due to the icing situation. Great simulation, hope to see you do the 1965 Carmel mid-air collision. Have a great week🎄🎅
The ATR is a great example in the difference in culture between European and Americans. Europeans would defend their airplane tooth and nail while American are far less aggressive. The aggressive defense covered up the airplane weakness and Boeing could have done the same to the 737 Max. I still believe had an experienced western crew been flying the two Max, none of them would have crashed, and they would not have been grounded if they had European type defense. The bottom line is, I will not fly in an ATR.
Voepass Flight 2283 CVR Transcript 7:32 ATC:Passaredo 2283‚ switch to frequency 123.25. 7:37 F.O: Switching to 123.25. 7:56 ATC:Passaredo 2283‚ maintain flight level 170 due to traffic. 8:02 F.O: Maintaining 170. 8:05 F.O:We are at the ideal point of descent‚ waiting for clearance. 9:01 F.O:A lot of icing... 9:37 ATC: Passaredo 2283‚ turn direct to SANPA. 9:42 ATC:Maintain level 170. 9:46 F.O: Direct to SANPA and maintain 170. Passaredo 2283. 10:00 [INCREASE SPEED ALERT] 10:13 F.O:What is going on!? 10:31 F.O: Need more power!
They’ve largely stopped using them in the US and Canada due to weather related concerns. Most carriers sold them all to warmer climate operations. And PIA (who have done nothing to improve the aircraft’s reputation).
@@힐만94 Yes,warmer climates are more suited for this aircraft,and they are popular in Europe too,but Asia the most ideal operating environment for the ATR.
I once encountered severe icing with the cabin heater malfunctioning. I was half frozen. Even so I instinctively pushed the controls forward as the aircraft was stalling. And recovered
you would think after Roselawn Indiana, the ATR-42 would not be allowed to fly through icing conditions. I do not believe they ever fixed the problem which is that the anti-ice system can not deal with ice.
At Roselawn, the suspected cause was ice build up just forward of the aileon, where the boots cannot reach, causing a control reversal. The NTSB recommendation were to redesign the wings, which ATR of course ignored. If only Boeing are as aggressive defending their 737 Max.
I’ve flown them a lot with Loganair and never really liked them. The system has thankfully been improved but these pilots were incompetent or needed more training on the type
It’s a bit concerning how such a modern airliner can be so adversely affected by ice. I feel like this plane has always had a fatal flaw relating to icing.
It does! That’s why almost all European and North American carriers won’t fly them in cold climates. American Eagle limited their ATR fleet to the Caribbean after a similar crash in Indiana. My understanding is that the design of the boots allows ice ridging to form on top of the wing. The boots are poorly designed. In the American Eagle crash, the pilots had the boots on and the wings still became too contaminated to keep flying.
The root problem is the shape of the wing. The ATR’s very slender wings build up ice easily, and are much more susceptible to disrupted airflow and stall from ice buildup.
That last turn exceeded the critical angle of attack and they were screwed. I hate to say it but it was past time to declare an emergency and start down. If they were flying the Concord airframe ice wouldn't be an issue but an ATR is a ice magnet.
@@Miss_Hooliethere is a design flaw in the atr's when the de-icing boots are activated the procedure is that it must be deactivated within 15 seconds. More the that and then ice will accumulate between the spaces of the de-icing boots and the wings which is about 2 metres. Enough to significantly reduce the aircraft's performance.
As a general aviation pilot in Europe, ice is probably the thing I fear the most. When speed decreases due to ice, it is really really time to act. Possibly in a warm country like Brazil, it does not strike the pilots as very important. Also, it is noteworthy that the co-pilot was 61 with 5,000 hours or so. It is strange, I think, to be a co-pilot at that age in such a honestly speaking modest plane and also, relatively few hours at that age, so who was he? This accident is really hard to understand other than possibly they had confirmation bias that “all was well”. Once you enter a spin in such a plane, I suspect there is no remedy but in any case adding engine power is about 100% wrong so who were these pilots?
@@shibukurian79 Yup. Well. In *The Joca's Case* An Golden Retriever, They Did Send To Manaus Instead To The Original Arrival (Fortaleza) And Did An Another Flight. But This Flight Was Fatal To Joca....... Unfortunately, He Passed Away..... R.I.P Joca (2019-2024)
I haven't looked at any safety board report about the possible or found causes, but to me, as a good knowledge aerospace engineer and pilot, icing was the hazard and the pilots induced an accidental wings stall by going too high on the AOA for whatever reason at some point, effect followed by a flat spin from which they never knew nor did anything correctly to recover, basically becoming cockpit passengers until their death.
The black screen towards the end of the video is too long. I had an ad at the same time and I clicked off the video,only to see later that I left too early. Is your total time watched low? That's why.
Question - on the ATR of the airframe de-icing fails due to a fault what is the workaround? Would this be reason to drop to a lower altitude and possibly require a diversion?
Several thoughts flood my brain as a professional pilot. First of all, the Spanish crew members showed the sort of unprofessional and complacent conduct that I have often been made aware of as an aviation safety officer. Secondly, the ATR 72 and it's smaller predecessor, the ATR 42 both have horrible safety and security records with regards to icing conditions and the manufacturer, Aerospatiale, had long before, restricted these aircraft from flight into known icing conditions. Finally, the simple solution is twofold. 1) avoid flying into known icing conditions and activate the anti icing and deicing systems at the first hint of trouble and leave the systems turned on as well as descending to a lower altitude. Once you declare a Pan Pan Pan call to ATC, they must accomodate you!!!
Yes, still after all those speed alarms and alerts and icing conditions , how they ended up like this.... Controlling the speed sounds like a very easy task for an experienced pilot... Let along even I know it not being a pilot myself.
DO NOT FLY ABOARD THIS AIRCRAFT! The ATR 72-500 is a turboprop aircraft that, like other transport category aircraft, is not certified or tested for spins; however, under certain conditions, it can enter a dangerous flat spin, which is extremely difficult to recover from. A flat spin occurs when the aircraft stalls and begins rotating around its vertical axis with the nose high and wings level. This can happen if: Power is not reduced during a spin. Ailerons are applied opposite to the spin direction. The center of gravity is too far aft. In a flat spin, normal spin recovery techniques are ineffective because: The tail fin and rudder are stalled, rendering them useless. Airflow is disrupted, providing little to no thrust from the engines. The ATR 72-500's design contributes to its spin characteristics: Its high-wing configuration and T-tail design can lead to undesirable deep stall characteristics. The engines' location far from the center of gravity creates a strong gyroscopic force, potentially exacerbating the spin. Regarding the use of differential thrust to counter rotation: In a flat spin, airflow is severely disrupted, making engine thrust largely ineffective. Even if thrust could stop rotation, it would not address the underlying deep stall condition. The ATR 72-500, like other transport aircraft, relies on stall prevention systems rather than spin recovery capabilities. These include stick shakers and oral warnings to alert pilots before a stall occurs.
It's hard for me to believe they dropped at that rate without an in-flight breakup. Do you know what a 24,000 ft/min drop from FL170 does to an airliner?
Pan Pan and Mayday not used by Pilots, must go to lower altitude and ask ATC to give Rader vector directly to the nearest airport, explaining the immergency
With all of the comments about the ATR-72 and icing, no aircraft can stay in the sky without airspeed, which is the real reason this plane crashed. One or both pilots should have been monitoring the airspeed, especially since the aircraft was warning them of icing!! I'm not a pilot, but I've heard the mantra "aviate, navigate, and communicate." Sadly, the pilots failed. RIP 💔
Not to nitpick, but is it standard operating procedure to start both engines simultaneously? (Okay, maybe nitpicking a *_little,_* but it's *_constructive_* nitpicking.) It just struck me as odd, and threw me out of the moment. 🖖
I knew it was icing when I saw it was in a flat spin coupled with reports of icing along their flight path. They had plenty of warning! The flight that was lost in Roselawn, In. did not. The ATR 72 is a beautiful bird. Just doesn't like ice. Tell me what propjet does.
The ATR 's wings are super aerodynamically efficient for low fuel consumption but terribly inefficient to maintain flight when compromised by ice, once again human life is worth less than the pursuit of profit !
Another crash that was completely avoidable! Very sad for the passengers! Must’ve been horrifying knowing the last two minutes will be your last! I have nightmares of dying in a plane crash, it’s the worst feeling when you have zero control and your life is the hands of pilots!
Worst air disaster should be for the most amount of people who lost their lives and this for 2024 can't be the worst. Wadda bout a double decker Airbus with no vacant seats?
It's crazy that people with absolutely no ability to think critically have the lives of 60 people in their hands. Even I know that ice causes drag, drag reduces air speed, every plane has an airspeed minimum before it stalls and falls out of the sky. All they had to do was listen to the air speed warnings and point the nose down to keep air speed above stall speed. Eventually land and get the airframe de-icer fixed though the ice would probably fall off at lower altitude, before landing
It is not impossible to recover if you trust your training and do the right thing. Doing the right thing is kicking your captain for not taking action when you say ice!
Even I who has never flown on an ATR and hates flying and avoids it as much as possible knows that the ATR is a b.... when flying in icing conditions. Roselawn and other incidents attest to its sensitivity to icing. Again I am surprise by the nonchalance of the pilots. After all their lives too were at risk. And given that the ATR has an icing problem perhaps they should install a computer voice giving a callout if the airspeed drops too much. Not just a chime.
I don't know if it's only me but after years of watching these videos, I'm now nervous about flying. I don't manage to trust the pilots anymore when I keep seeing unprofessional, nonchalant pilots who ignore warnings, lift the nose when they are entering a stall, etc, etc...
Extraordinary lack of professionalism by the pilots. They were aware of ice buildup but never discussed how it could lead to a stall. So, when it happened the F.O. didn't know what was happening. The pilots hadn't connected the dots earlier from ice to stall to anticipate the stall. Had they done that, they would have kept a close watch on their speed which was dropping towards stall speed.
What sort of Professional Pilots repeatedly ignore ice warnings, low speed warnings and degraded flight warnings?? Absolutely unbelievable and disgusting. Criminal.
Sadly they paid the price for it.
I am not a pilot, but my first thought was to get to a lower altitude because of the icing.
The same way pilots who ignore flaps set configuration warnings on take off
I'll bet they uncover that this wasn't the first time they turned the deicing on and off and ignored due to "system malfunction". They probably got lucky on previous flights by descending before performance fully degraded.
Lack of training and experience.
61 yo 5000hrs not verry impressive
The aircraft did everything but kick them in the butt to warn them of a deteriorating situation.
Maybe along wih stick pusher we need a butt kicker built into the seats when pilots do not respond to critical alerts within 5 seconds
LOL...😅😂😊
IT IS WELL KNOWN that the ATR's Achilles heal is ice - There have been several terrible crashes because of it - However I believe if the pilots took the air speed and icing more seriously, this plane would not have crashed - ATR is still manufacturing the 72-600 and I believe they have protocols regarding ice as they are well aware of the problem - So sad, those poor people must have been terrified when they entered the flat spin - RIP to all of them - ALSO WELL DONE AGAIN ON A GREAT VIDEO - So realistic - Even the sound of ATC and the propellers
Yupp, being aware of this, it might be a good idea to pay attention to the related warnings
What would have been a normal speed for this flight that is more than 191 knots?
The boots on the ATR are ANTI ice,to prevent ice accumulation. They are not designed to remove ice build up.
They must be on continuously in icing conditions.
I am a retired ATR and and Fokker F27 captain.
Yes captain but was it not a mistaken but widespread old school belief that you had to wait till there was quarter of inch ice or something before deploying the boots and I believe that’s still pervades in a number of pilots. Had you encountered that in your career?
ok, i thought they were to be inflated to crack the ice build up, i thought the heated leading edges were to be on all the time in ice conditions
@ so heated leading edges are on straight turbo fan aircraft as there is enough bleed air to heat them. Turbo-props have inflated boots- no heating involved and they expand to crack the ice rather than the heated leading edges which melt the ice. It used to be , as you say ,you didn’t turn them on till the ice was there and it cracked the ice however the modern school of thought and design planning sees them on when you initially encounter icing conditions and the cracking end buildup goes on in a cycle and will potentially keep the aircraft ice free , but in major icing, Most aircraft of this type require you to descend to escape the conditions.
@@malcolmwhite6588 cheers...you learn something new every day:):)
Our Lockheed P-3s are turboprop. No boots here. Just bleed air heating wing leading edge anti ice. Leading edge of the props, and both horizontal and vertical stabs, are electrically heated.
A vertical drop at 24,000 ft/min while spinning has got to be the most horrific way to spend your last two minutes alive.
It would only be 2 minutes if they were at 48,000 feet lol. They were at 17,000 feet, so it was about half a minute, but the point is still valid. It probably SEEMED like 2 minutes (or more).
A vertical speed of appx 270 mph while in a flat spin....well...you got your airspeed back...sorry about the current angle of attack and all. Best wishes on your flat spin recovery attempt...you have about 40 seconds...
what would most people do in that situation? would they try holding hands with a stranger? Pray in unison? try to kiss the beautiful girl next to you?
@@1994CPK I would try assymetric thrust but that's just me.
@@1994CPK panicing and screaming in fear obviously. an on going accident like this where you are aware that you are about to die in a few seconds isnt like sitting in the chair at home, where you are calm enough and have time to think about your situation in life etc. if they would have known minutes ago what is about to happen, they would have time to hug each other or prey etc. but not in this case. they where held hostage in this situation, which is a pure torture for the mind until the end obviously. some family members might have held hands to each other but more as a protective reaction, hoping it would give them some protection against the impact.
I was on a mid sized commuter turboprop when the ice built up very heavily on the wings. I was sitting where I could see it and told the stewardess to please inform the captain that there was a heavy ice build up. It was much worse than the animation here, like well over a quarter inch, maybe even more. She refused to alert the captain because I was just a dumb passenger and "he knows what he is doing". She was an idiot and could have got us all killed.
Yet, you landed safely. Who's the idiot?
She was. That is not what you say to a passenger - if those were her exact words. A quick trip to the cabin come back with a "Thank you, the Captain is aware and informed me that it is well within the normal operating parameters of the aircraft." Either that or have a terrified passenger who will then pass that terror along to anyone who'll listen to him,
Stop being dramatic
I had to advise on a suspect fuel leak. The message was passed to th pilots this made them aware. They where able to sort the problem. Got a thank you from them. @@nickv4073
I wonder why she thinks airlines require passenger shades remain up during pre-flight and takeoff. So we can see the pretty concrete? Too bad you couldn’t have slipped her a note with Aloha 243 written on it. Maybe it would’ve hit home when she saw that one of her own had gotten sucked out and remains unfound to this day.
How many warnings did they need. They should have demanded descent from fl 170 immediately. And the de-icer fault warning should have been enough to land at the nearest alternate or turn back ??
This is pilot error, not just a systems failure.
Good video. Have An Amazing Afternoon And My Condolences To *The 62 Souls Of Flight 2283*
Weird that they weren't trying to get out of icing conditions. Descend, or climb.
This is such a sad accident that never should have happened. These two pilots have a reasonable amount of experience between them and should have understood that they needed to change altitude to get out of the icing (a change of 5000' will usually get you out of it) or explain to ATC that your building ice and need to start a slow descent to maintain airspeed.
What's not depicted in the video, is the appearance that they were likely in and out of cloud for most of the flight picking up what appears as Rime-ice before the aerodynamic stall occurs while in the turn.
I'm fortunate to have about 1000 hrs in the ATR 72, and I've experienced these warnings about icing. The "ice detect" which happens all the time with just a hint of ice buildup....and once just prior to top of descent we got the "ice detect" and a few minutes later the "cruise speed low." We tried restoring airspeed by increasing prop RPM, but that didn't work, so we arranged with ATC a slow descent as we were about 50 miles away from the normal top of decent point and restored cruise speed that way.
RIP to all who lost their lives...
This crash was heartbreaking 💔 it so reminds me of American 4184 due to the icing situation. Great simulation, hope to see you do the 1965 Carmel mid-air collision. Have a great week🎄🎅
Despite looking like a default Flight Sim livery option, I think the ATR 72 looks really nice in that Voepass livery
Same here. It's sharp
Thanks!
Thank you for the support
@@MPCFlightsbrotha why not pin him?
'Aviate' is the first word in 'aviate, navigate, communicate.' Without it, nothing else matters.
Sad fact: This crash was the deadliest in Brazil in over 17 years at the time, since TAM 3054 in 2007
I would never get on board an ATR-72. Too many accidents caused by icing. Even with experienced crews.
You'll be safe if it's in tropical region
They fly regularly in Europe with no issues so far.
The ATR is a great example in the difference in culture between European and Americans. Europeans would defend their airplane tooth and nail while American are far less aggressive. The aggressive defense covered up the airplane weakness and Boeing could have done the same to the 737 Max. I still believe had an experienced western crew been flying the two Max, none of them would have crashed, and they would not have been grounded if they had European type defense. The bottom line is, I will not fly in an ATR.
@@Randomly_Browsingnote: this was Brazil, tropical to subtropical.
@@FranciscoCaminodifferent weather. Not the same humidity at altitude
Voepass Flight 2283 CVR Transcript
7:32 ATC:Passaredo 2283‚ switch to frequency 123.25.
7:37 F.O: Switching to 123.25.
7:56 ATC:Passaredo 2283‚ maintain flight level 170 due to traffic.
8:02 F.O: Maintaining 170.
8:05 F.O:We are at the ideal point of descent‚ waiting for clearance.
9:01 F.O:A lot of icing...
9:37 ATC: Passaredo 2283‚ turn direct to SANPA.
9:42 ATC:Maintain level 170.
9:46 F.O: Direct to SANPA and maintain 170. Passaredo 2283.
10:00 [INCREASE SPEED ALERT]
10:13 F.O:What is going on!?
10:31 F.O: Need more power!
we still can't be sure if the CVR will ever be released considering its now in the hands of Brazilian investigators
@@thecameramantraveler4830It won't be released, thankfully. It's not allowed anymore. And it's not because it's in the hands of Brazilian "NTSB"
The ATR-72 is a great plane but doesn't tolerate fools.
Please. Do *EgyptAir Flight 990* And *Dynamic Airways Flight 405?*
Pilot error,but the ATR does have a dubious safety record........And is prone to icing,due to the narrow wings.
Top job yet again👍!
They’ve largely stopped using them in the US and Canada due to weather related concerns. Most carriers sold them all to warmer climate operations. And PIA (who have done nothing to improve the aircraft’s reputation).
@andrewtaylor940 Yes,not the first choice for cold weather operation!
atr 42/72 is well recognized plane for tropics regions.. here in indonesia, it's quite workhorse for inter-islands flights with no major issue..
@@힐만94 Yes,warmer climates are more suited for this aircraft,and they are popular in Europe too,but Asia the most ideal operating environment for the ATR.
Note that it warned them several times about ice and speed. Can't blame the aircraft.
This was an excellent video, very well produced. Thank you for choosing to provide a written narrative rather than AI.
The music at the end was AI generated musical gibberish.
Not the pilots fault. They only received 17 warnings. The 18th would have made a difference! 🙄
Everyone. Let's Make One Minute Of Silence To *All 62 Perished Souls Of The Flight 2283........*
ALLAHU AKBAAR. Inshah Allah. Erqed bis Alam
Rest in peace those poor souls
May their sacred souls test in peace.
RIP Amen
May God/Allah/YHWH grant them all eternal rest
I once encountered severe icing with the cabin heater malfunctioning.
I was half frozen. Even so I instinctively pushed the controls forward as the aircraft was stalling.
And recovered
you would think after Roselawn Indiana, the ATR-42 would not be allowed to fly through icing conditions. I do not believe they ever fixed the problem which is that the anti-ice system can not deal with ice.
At Roselawn, the suspected cause was ice build up just forward of the aileon, where the boots cannot reach, causing a control reversal. The NTSB recommendation were to redesign the wings, which ATR of course ignored. If only Boeing are as aggressive defending their 737 Max.
MPC. Please, Do Air China Flight 129 And Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961 Please?
When an airplane has more sense, than the pilots flying it
That’s how 95% of air crashes happen. The plane is desperately trying to save itself but the pilots just keep screwing up.
The ATR 72’s fatal flaw is ice…any one of these aircraft could so easily lose control in icy conditions, and they have
It’s a dangerous aircraft. The Soviet AN-24 was safer.
I’ve flown them a lot with Loganair and never really liked them. The system has thankfully been improved but these pilots were incompetent or needed more training on the type
It’s a bit concerning how such a modern airliner can be so adversely affected by ice. I feel like this plane has always had a fatal flaw relating to icing.
It does! That’s why almost all European and North American carriers won’t fly them in cold climates. American Eagle limited their ATR fleet to the Caribbean after a similar crash in Indiana. My understanding is that the design of the boots allows ice ridging to form on top of the wing. The boots are poorly designed. In the American Eagle crash, the pilots had the boots on and the wings still became too contaminated to keep flying.
The root problem is the shape of the wing. The ATR’s very slender wings build up ice easily, and are much more susceptible to disrupted airflow and stall from ice buildup.
The last I saw the plane was at 140 kts, hell, what is the normal stall speed of those things? That seems very high speed.
They should use a more effective ice system, like TKS. Not the rubber boots that are good for half the job. (anti ice only)
ATR and ice, two terms that should never meet.
That last turn exceeded the critical angle of attack and they were screwed.
I hate to say it but it was past time to declare an emergency and start down. If they were flying the Concord airframe ice wouldn't be an issue but an ATR is a ice magnet.
@kristensorensen2219 why does it attract more ice than a jet powered aircraft?
@@Miss_Hooliethere is a design flaw in the atr's when the de-icing boots are activated the procedure is that it must be deactivated within 15 seconds. More the that and then ice will accumulate between the spaces of the de-icing boots and the wings which is about 2 metres. Enough to significantly reduce the aircraft's performance.
@@shibukurian79 thanks for that so the wings are too small
Icing conditions and pilots that ignore all warnings are two things that should never meet.
Do *Pan Am Flight 7* And *The 1954 Prestwick Disaster (A.K.A BOAC Boeing 377 Crash)* Next?
As a general aviation pilot in Europe, ice is probably the thing I fear the most. When speed decreases due to ice, it is really really time to act. Possibly in a warm country like Brazil, it does not strike the pilots as very important. Also, it is noteworthy that the co-pilot was 61 with 5,000 hours or so. It is strange, I think, to be a co-pilot at that age in such a honestly speaking modest plane and also, relatively few hours at that age, so who was he? This accident is really hard to understand other than possibly they had confirmation bias that “all was well”. Once you enter a spin in such a plane, I suspect there is no remedy but in any case adding engine power is about 100% wrong so who were these pilots?
Ah man...... I Saw That Of The 61 Souls... There Is A Dog In The Basement.... So Rest In Peace To All 62 Souls 😢
This Remind Me *The Joca's Case.....* From GOL Airlines 😢
@WiuTuLooMan Oh Damn.... This Was Sad....
Wdym there is a dog in the basement?
@@shibukurian79 Yup. Well. In *The Joca's Case* An Golden Retriever, They Did Send To Manaus Instead To The Original Arrival (Fortaleza) And Did An Another Flight. But This Flight Was Fatal To Joca....... Unfortunately, He Passed Away..... R.I.P Joca (2019-2024)
@@shibukurian79 In The *Flight 2283* Yes. Unfortunately, There Was An Dog......
Thank you so much for your incredibly useful video.
please do swiftair 5960
I haven't looked at any safety board report about the possible or found causes, but to me, as a good knowledge aerospace engineer and pilot, icing was the hazard and the pilots induced an accidental wings stall by going too high on the AOA for whatever reason at some point, effect followed by a flat spin from which they never knew nor did anything correctly to recover, basically becoming cockpit passengers until their death.
How sad! May all the victims rest in peace 🙏 Thank you very much for sharing this.
They were at 17k feet and icing. How far would they have to descend to be out of icing conditions? 🤔
What’s the difference between what happened and what really happened?
Do *China Airlines Flight 206* And *Olympic Airways Flight 830 And 506* To Next One?
Hey Mauricio. Please Do *TOA Domestic Airlines Flight 063* And *Sri Lanka Air Force Flight CR834* Next?
The ATR 72 and Sukhoi Superjet 100 are probably two of the most unfortunate short-haul planes in this era
A high wing propjet with Boots is not a 727 with hot wings and loads of power. Ice is nothing to screw around with in a plane like this!!
The black screen towards the end of the video is too long. I had an ad at the same time and I clicked off the video,only to see later that I left too early. Is your total time watched low? That's why.
Question - on the ATR of the airframe de-icing fails due to a fault what is the workaround? Would this be reason to drop to a lower altitude and possibly require a diversion?
I thought after the high profile crashes caused by icing the ATR was derated and no longer allowed to fly through areas of known icing.
Several thoughts flood my brain as a professional pilot. First of all, the Spanish crew members showed the sort of unprofessional and complacent conduct that I have often been made aware of as an aviation safety officer. Secondly, the ATR 72 and it's smaller predecessor, the ATR 42 both have horrible safety and security records with regards to icing conditions and the manufacturer, Aerospatiale, had long before, restricted these aircraft from flight into known icing conditions.
Finally, the simple solution is twofold. 1) avoid flying into known icing conditions and activate the anti icing and deicing systems at the first hint of trouble and leave the systems turned on as well as descending to a lower altitude. Once you declare a Pan Pan Pan call to ATC, they must accomodate you!!!
24,000 fpm? Weird how despite the fastest rate of descent I’ve ever seen, the plane looked to be falling fairly slowly on video
Al kind of nice feature to inform the crew.
If you ignore those features, there is no use to install the
Can u do pilgrim airlines flight 458? And TAESA flight 725?
You know something is very wrong ,but you do nothing ! Wow
like most every crash it can be broadly narrowed down to some form of pilot error or mechanical neglect. This case its probably both.
5:11 why did they turn off the anti ice and not turn it back on?
Excellent video...such a shame!!!!
My layman's guess is that they had been through the same scenario so often that they didn't take it too seriously. This last time bit them.
Yes, still after all those speed alarms and alerts and icing conditions , how they ended up like this....
Controlling the speed sounds like a very easy task for an experienced pilot...
Let along even I know it not being a pilot myself.
Rest in peace to those poor souls. Love the music at the end quite poignant do you know who it's by?
DO NOT FLY ABOARD THIS AIRCRAFT!
The ATR 72-500 is a turboprop aircraft that, like other transport category aircraft, is not certified or tested for spins; however, under certain conditions, it can enter a dangerous flat spin, which is extremely difficult to recover from. A flat spin occurs when the aircraft stalls and begins rotating around its vertical axis with the nose high and wings level.
This can happen if:
Power is not reduced during a spin.
Ailerons are applied opposite to the spin direction.
The center of gravity is too far aft.
In a flat spin, normal spin recovery techniques are ineffective because:
The tail fin and rudder are stalled, rendering them useless.
Airflow is disrupted, providing little to no thrust from the engines.
The ATR 72-500's design contributes to its spin characteristics:
Its high-wing configuration and T-tail design can lead to undesirable deep stall characteristics.
The engines' location far from the center of gravity creates a strong gyroscopic force, potentially exacerbating the spin.
Regarding the use of differential thrust to counter rotation:
In a flat spin, airflow is severely disrupted, making engine thrust largely ineffective.
Even if thrust could stop rotation, it would not address the underlying deep stall condition.
The ATR 72-500, like other transport aircraft, relies on stall prevention systems rather than spin recovery capabilities. These include stick shakers and oral warnings to alert pilots before a stall occurs.
It's hard for me to believe they dropped at that rate without an in-flight breakup. Do you know what a 24,000 ft/min drop from FL170 does to an airliner?
What really frightens me is that this took place in august this year!
In South America, August is during the winter season. Regardless of season, OAT outside air temperature decreases with altitude...
Are there many many ATRs or are they more prone to accidents because if their flying characteristics?
This one should never have happened 😢
Pan Pan and Mayday not used by Pilots, must go to lower altitude and ask ATC to give Rader vector directly to the nearest airport, explaining the immergency
Flying is the safest mode of transportation, but a million things can go wrong, and they do.
What were they thinking?
Yeah those high aspect ratio wings are definitely at risk in icing Same thing as in Buffalo
how many passengers on board...?
People were trying to say it was some big conspiracy. These pilots were an a level of incompetence not seen since AF447. Truly unbelievable honestly.
With all of the comments about the ATR-72 and icing, no aircraft can stay in the sky without airspeed, which is the real reason this plane crashed. One or both pilots should have been monitoring the airspeed, especially since the aircraft was warning them of icing!! I'm not a pilot, but I've heard the mantra "aviate, navigate, and communicate." Sadly, the pilots failed. RIP 💔
It beggers belief why they didn't heed the warnings then declare a pan pan and decend to a lower level out of icing conditions.
Not to nitpick, but is it standard operating procedure to start both engines simultaneously? (Okay, maybe nitpicking a *_little,_* but it's *_constructive_* nitpicking.) It just struck me as odd, and threw me out of the moment. 🖖
The pilots F'd up real bad !!!
Another excellent video.
I knew it was icing when I saw it was in a flat spin coupled with reports of icing along their flight path. They had plenty of warning! The flight that was lost in Roselawn, In. did not. The ATR 72 is a beautiful bird. Just doesn't like ice. Tell me what propjet does.
This was a disaster to see on camera. And the aftermath. Some bodies weren't even all in the plane.
The ATR 's wings are super aerodynamically efficient for low fuel consumption but terribly inefficient to maintain flight when compromised by ice, once again human life is worth less than the pursuit of profit !
Those passengers had to be terrified. To the family and friends, so, so sorry for your loss. I hope they are all at peace.
Another crash that was completely avoidable! Very sad for the passengers! Must’ve been horrifying knowing the last two minutes will be your last! I have nightmares of dying in a plane crash, it’s the worst feeling when you have zero control and your life is the hands of pilots!
Seems like the ATR needs a better (bigger) wing.
What a nightmare for those poor people 😢
The most annoying thing about this crash is that it was actually avoidable. But to men in white uniform decided to ignore ice warnings
Plus once in the spin, they left the power on maximum which made a recovery impossible. RIP 🙁
This is 'It'll be ok" syndrome. A pan call would have got them a descent clearance. ATP Ret'd.
There appear to be commercial pilots out there that don't have the competence to ride a bike. RIP all.
I dont think it was falling at 25000 ft/mn, thats almost 300 mph.
I don’t understand how those skinny little wings provide enough lift to get that thing off the ground and then add ice to the situation??
Worst air disaster should be for the most amount of people who lost their lives and this for 2024 can't be the worst. Wadda bout a double decker Airbus with no vacant seats?
It's crazy that people with absolutely no ability to think critically have the lives of 60 people in their hands. Even I know that ice causes drag, drag reduces air speed, every plane has an airspeed minimum before it stalls and falls out of the sky. All they had to do was listen to the air speed warnings and point the nose down to keep air speed above stall speed. Eventually land and get the airframe de-icer fixed though the ice would probably fall off at lower altitude, before landing
The ship tried very hard to tell the flight crew something was very wrong and these freaking ding-dongs ignored all the warnings.
It is not impossible to recover if you trust your training and do the right thing. Doing the right thing is kicking your captain for not taking action when you say ice!
His is a pilot 35 years and and a First Officer 61?
Even I who has never flown on an ATR and hates flying and avoids it as much as possible knows that the ATR is a b.... when flying in icing conditions. Roselawn and other incidents attest to its sensitivity to icing. Again I am surprise by the nonchalance of the pilots. After all their lives too were at risk. And given that the ATR has an icing problem perhaps they should install a computer voice giving a callout if the airspeed drops too much. Not just a chime.
Speed alerts.sad they took no heed.after all their training
I don't know if it's only me but after years of watching these videos, I'm now nervous about flying. I don't manage to trust the pilots anymore when I keep seeing unprofessional, nonchalant pilots who ignore warnings, lift the nose when they are entering a stall, etc, etc...
it is only you.
People should not critisize as they were not in the pilots place.😢
Lack of experience of both pilots, sadly this cost all lives on board .
The U.S. authorities don’t even want these death traps flying around Sanford , FL . ----> gone
do Pan Am 799 on dec 26, 1968, elmendorf AFB, i was witness to it
Extraordinary lack of professionalism by the pilots. They were aware of ice buildup but never discussed how it could lead to a stall. So, when it happened the F.O. didn't know what was happening. The pilots hadn't connected the dots earlier from ice to stall to anticipate the stall. Had they done that, they would have kept a close watch on their speed which was dropping towards stall speed.