EVERYTHING We Know About The Brazil Air Crash
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- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
- It's way too early to make definitive conclusions on what happened to Voepass Linhas Aéreas Flight 2283, which sadly crashed into a residential area of São Paulo on the 9th of August 2024.
However, given how many Mentour viewers are nervous flyers, I decided to make this video explaining some of the basics based on what we know now. My heart goes out to everyone aboard the aircraft, as well as their loved ones. I hope this video at least helps people within our community come to terms with the incident.
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode.
SOURCES
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Images and video used in this episode:
Flywith Magnar: / flywithmagnar
@xuanxinxiaolin1
@Berk04790
@geotechwar
ATR Boot Video used with permission from @aviator yangon via UA-cam
• ATR 72-600 wing leadin...
simpleflying.c...
www.iol.co.za/...
www.cntraveler...
• B-52B Shuttle Drag Chu...
• Stalling A Cessna
• CRJ-200 Stick Shake Test
#Mentourpilot #pilot #aircraft
If you want to support the work I do on the channel, join my Patreon crew and get awesome perks and help me move the channel forward! www.patreon.com/mentourpilot
Proceedure for petreon crew plz ?????
Honestly 99% of the time accidents are caused by cutting corners with budget and safety, some prick trying to save money by skipping steps or training
Your logo looks as if it has been taken directly off the front of a New Mini (car)
@@MentourNow I'm very tempted given how the comments here are just getting full of personal insults replies, as opposed to being constructive, however I dont think I have the time avaliable to get the most out of it any more.
Coming soon
Brazilian 737 pilot here. That day i was flying from Argentina to Sao Paulo. I flew through that same area a couple of hours later. in the STAR towards sao paulo. There was a severe icing advisory in effect. While Descending below fl200 we got ice formation on our windshields and wings. A very strong weather system was arriving from the south that day. Rip all the souls and the brave brazilian pilots whom im sure fought all the way to the very end.
it was a really cold day.
Thanks for that added context, makes the event far more understandable.
Very traumatic
Was the icing sigmet active before they departed? I find it perplexing someone would knowingly fly into know severe icing conditions like that.
My condolences for your colleagues and countrymen.
As grim as it is, the fact that every commercial aviation incident with significant risk to life or actual loss of life, is world news, just tells me how rare it is.
I feel like there's a lot of them happening these days
@@27althafmohammed75There's not
@@27althafmohammed75 not really, at least this particular flight has been the only fatal airborne commercial airliner crash of the year, and that's one accident out of nearly 40 million flights.
@@27althafmohammed75 do your research. Its really not. The only crash in yeaaaars. The crash in 2023 was also a turbo prob. Just fly with new planes haha. And again this is pilots fault for again not being careful. All plane crashes have a reason. Most are also cargo planes. So no passangers. Where the cargo broke lose and made the plane weight change. So lets say there are 120 million flights in 3 years... 0 jet planes crashed. That makes 0/120.000.000 chance of crashing. btw LOOK IT UP a car has a 1/5000 chance! see the difference 1/5000 -> 0/120.000.000. If you do decide to fly a 3rd world country airline with an old plane it could be 1/120.000.000
@Ing0r0 wasn't there the japan air incident, also a plane crash in nepal with only the pilot surviving? Also hearing a lot about emergency landings across the world.
That video chilled me to the bone. I knew it could happen, but I'd never SEEN a commercial aircraft in a flat spin. What a terrifying experience that would have been.
I thought it was a faked video.
We all wish it was a faked video. This is tragic.
Really shocking video. Ony seen it in the movie (yeah, that one). Never thought it would be caught on video in real life. RIP to all of them, very sad
I tried to read about spins and flat spins. One of the featurs I found is that the accelerations inside the cabin are not wild, it's just a bit higher and in weird direction. To get the full awarenes of the situation one needs the visual reference. In clouds (I suppose most of the downfall happened in the clouds) you can see just "white darkness".
If you KNOW what the flat spin is and how it show, then it is bloodstopping expirience beyond imagination.
My first thought on this vid was... Goose, you have to punch us out.
I was watching a 737 do lazy figure 8's just above the tree line once. found out later that was the only place they could do a check flight. I pulled over to watch it. Banked over just above the trees flying so slow for 10 minutes.
I'm Brazillian and my father was in a little airplane exactly like this one, even the same company on the same day and same time, this airplane was going to São paulo, my father was leaving São paulo, so when I heard the news of this plane crash my heart dropped knowing my father was on that route. Luckily, he wasn't on that plane, but my heart cries to all the people on it and their families aswell. RIP.
ainda bem q seu pai está bem mano
Flying is deffinately not safe now days
@@mattmatt6572Absolutely not, that's a mistake. If you compare the accidents that happened in the early days of aviation, you'll see that's not true. We were more than 25 years in Brasil without accidents. Flying is still safer than cars.
@@mattmatt6572it’s literally the safest way to travel. Anyway to the OG comment, I am so glad that you dad is doing well. Wish him a happy and long life.
@@mattmatt6572when a plane crash happens it shocks everyone bc it so rare its terrifying. but when a car crash happens noone gets surpirised bc its always happens any day
The saddest part is in Brazil we celebrate father's day on the second Sunday of August.
Which landed on August 11 this year.
Many people on that flight were probably traveling to spend the weekend with their parents.
No, it was a plane full of doctors. They were going to a convention in São Paulo.
A great loss for the medical professionals in Curitiba and its region
@@nico3444Thanks for clarifying
@@nico3444so a bunch of dads
@@bluesweater8465 and mothers, and younger interns
exactly... so very sad to think. @@bluesweater8465
It should be noted that flat spin accidents are incredibly rare. As far as I know, the last time a passenger plane crashed after getting into an uncontrollable flat spin was nearly 40 years ago. But that's what makes this aircraft and the videos all the more shocking.
Exactly
There was one in 2006, a Russian Tu-154 full of passengers returning from holiday on Pulkovo Airlines. Stall and flat spin, near Sukha Balka, Ukraine.
Aero Caribbean Flight 883 in 2010
@@thevivianbrun That was just a deep stall due to t-tail iirc.
@@thevivianbrun thanks for letting me know. That's very similar to the TU-154 accident I was thinking of 20 years prior.
The level of professionalism and graphics and general knowhow on your videos is really second to none. Outstanding
Thank you so much. It was important to get this right.. there is a lot of fear out there and I wanted to help.
ALWAYS!!!! You're my favorite channel in this subject @@MentourNow
@@MentourNow Plan on doing a video on making the vids, such as what MSFS and XPlane mods, etc. Or do I need to join your Patreon? (it's tempting).
I'd love to have you as my personal pilot because your videos make me feel safe with you
@@MentourNowSo many graphics and animations in so short a timespan, y’all are nuts! :)
One of the most disturbing accidents I have seen. Seeing a plane literally fall from the sky, just shook me. RIP to all.....
That flat spin was horrifying to see.
Yes...! Terrifying 😢
I never thought airplanes could fall like that. Shocking indeed.
This and the B747 cargo plane!
A friend send a video of the tragedy to me, I first of all thought it's fake, but then I've seen different perspectives one after another when I finally searched it up and realized that this is one of the most horrible looking plane accidents I've seen.
I'm a Private Pilot, Brazilian and living in Vinhedo, 5 km away from the crash site. I'll never forget the sound of the engine or even worse, the rush of adrenaline and the bitter taste in my mouth when I heard the news. Sometimes it just feels like a nightmare. I've been praying for the souls of the ones who departed and for the families who are now mourning. I truly hope the sacrifices of those who went away will at least make aviation even safer. By the way, didn't know your channel. Congratulations on the excellent production, I'm now a new subscriber.
All my best wishes to you! - And RIP to those who perished.
Former ATR pilot here. Your research and delivery on this topic was top notch. Well done Sir! Subscribe button Pressed!
From a 20,000 hour retired Boeing guy. A job well done! Very sad situation in Brazil. Thank you again for a very fine presentation.
Do airplanes like this one have de-icing tech for the wings?
@@2degucitas Yes. It has rubber boots on the leading edge of the wings and tail surfaces. My experience is these boots in general are worse than nothing if you use them incorrectly.
@@2degucitas The video literally was describing that, did you even watch?
Dear Peter, a fan from Brazil here! Thanks for approaching this subject so professionally and sensibly, as always! ❤
Weather in South America has steroids, some days. There is so much energy in that air! I lived in Suriname one year, I've seen it, thunder storms are incredibly violent.
Still, we all should know that Brasil pilots MUST be good pilots, or they crash one day. There simply is no way to be a bad pilot, there, and that is
reassuring, in a strange way.
@@voornaam3191 Brazilian aviation is quite safe. Last accident with fatalities involving a big commercial airliner was 17 years ago. Shame that this record has been reset. But, as always, learn from it and move on. It's all that can be done.
Thank you for being respectful and avoiding speculation. What a terrible event, but I know the industry will learn from it
Like they did in 94😂😂😂 profits over people always
@@TUPELO_HUNNY You know that canadian operators had been operating the ATR since the 80s without issue like these ? (And believe me, icing is much more likely to happens in canada than in the US)
@@Rookie_One And Brazil haven't had a commercial accident in 17 years. The company had never had an accident either, and they've been running for 30+ years, its the oldest commercial flight company in Brazil. Tragic.
@@igoraps Thanks for the context concerning the company.
the report on that accident will be quite interesting when the investigators will be done with the investigation
@@Rookie_One Would being in generally colder weather somehow affect the importance given to such conditions? I mean, I believe pilots get this kind of weather very often when flying in Canada so knowing how to deal with it is a crucial part of training until it kind of becomes a no-brainer/instinctive procedure but considering how rare such severe icing events are around here the pilots might have not had the mental reflex and agility (due to insufficient training or simply less importance given) to recover from the upset?
American here. When I saw the clip, the day it happened, I cried. I’m so sorry for the family and friends of everyone involved both on the plane and on the ground. To Brazil, I’m so sorry for this terrible tragedy. Please everyone take care. My condolences and best wishes to all of you.
And why is it relevant where you are from?
@@redminote7334 is there a problem with saying “hey, I’m from America, I saw this video and feel beyond sad for what happened in another country”, as a means to send my condolences from America?
@@ravenm6443 Americans have been told all their lives that their country is the greatest, which I'm not disagreeing with. But it does drive arrogance.
@@toonyard2421 where did I mention anything about being the best, greatest, whatever?! It would be no different than anyone else stating where they are from as a means of showing sympathy and support from one country to another. 😠
If anything, you’re the one being incredibly rude here! To create an issue where there was none! We just had our own plane accident today. A plane literally landed onto a house and burst into flames. If I saw comments from people around the world offering their condolences, I wouldn’t make some asinine assumption that they’re announcing their country to be “arrogant.” wtf! Dude, my dude, please touch grass!
@@toonyard2421More like foreigners like yourself are obsessed with America. While americans literally couldn't care less. 🤣👍
Long time fan from Brazil here. Stories of aviation accidents with casulties always get to me, but having one as horrific as this one here at home? I'm heartbroken. Thank you so much for handling this story with the care, respect and empathy it deserves. You never disappoint! May those 62 souls rest in peace. 😢
I am Brazilian and I think the worst accident was in 2009 with a big airplane (Airfrance), that crashed into the Atlantic ocean after leaving Rio de Janeiro in Brazil.
Brazilian follower here, thank you for ur respectful and cautious approach!
In my opinion, pilots are innocent. ATR is responsible. So sorry for your country.
@@TUPELO_HUNNY Calma calabreso
@@user-ko9cb7qy5s He is not brazilian, man. Speak in english.
@@SethOmegaful Esse fela que aprenda português e leia.
@@user-ko9cb7qy5so que você quer está mole
Brazilian here. Thanks, Peter, for this great video
Just a dude here.
I had just come from dropping a deuce 💩
When I heard on the news about this tragedy
Props to the person doing the graphics during the explanation, they are easy to understand and also pretty!
Yes, good to mention that. The graphics add so much and are attractive!!
Pun intended?
@@Daimo83 ;p keep the blue side up!
That's a chilling video. No forward speed. Falling straight down. I can't imagine how terrified the passengers were as they experienced a drop many times greater than on a rollercoaster.
On behalf of nervous fliers, thank you so much for doing this. I know you prefer to wait, but we really needed this from you.
Mentour, the go to person for anything aviation related. Not a nervous flyer at all, but thank you for making this.
Yep. I've not watched any videos of this yet. I was waiting for someone who'd stick to the facts and not try to blame anyone or overhype it.
So either Mentour Pilot or Hoover (Pilot Debrief).
The other one is blancolirio. Both good.
The absolute terror those poor people went through is unimaginable. The video clips are horrific & chilling. I’ve read that one passenger was a young girl on her first flight, going to visit her father for Father’s Day & she had a new puppy with her. Both of their charred remains were found. Also a father & daughter’s remains found still holding each other. My wife is from Rio de Janeiro, Brasil & I’ve flown to São Paulo several times. This tragedy really hits home. My wife & I both just sat & cried. Thank you Peter, for another well produced video. You are a true gem ✨💎✨in the world of aviation. RIP to the all passengers & crew on that flight. 🥀😔
Brazilian here, the airplane company was from my city Ribeirão Preto. Actually the 3 year old girl was flying with her dad, he went to Cascavel to take her to Florianópolis to spend the Father’s Day with him. The dog on the plane was from a Venezuelan family (mom, grandma, and a 5 years old boy) they were moving to Colombia and the kid was crying a lot to think about leaving the dog in Brazil, so they decided to take the dog
His name was Rafael Fernando dos Santos (he was 41 years old) and his daughter's name was Liz (she was 3 years old). He was my work colleague for the last 6 years, we talked almost every day. Now we are all in deep shock at his tragic death, it seems unreal. It hits much harder when the tragedy involves someone you know well, especially in such a graphic and terrible crash. Last week I went to his funeral and cremation and he received many tributes, he was very loved by everyone. Rest in peace Rafael and Liz. P.S. The dog belonged to another child, a boy, all very tragic indeed.
@@renefischerbr How terrible
@@renefischerbr sorry for the loss of your friend and colleague. I don't know how I'll ever fly again, even knowing how rare this is. It's just so horrible. Again very sorry for your loss.
@@CobusGreyling Thanks for your kind words. I'm afraid to fly again too after seeing those horrible images and see someone close die this way. Maybe I'll fly again on jet airliners, but I'm sure I will never fly on an turboprop, specially the ATR-72, I prefer to go by bus, because you never know if there will be severe icing on the way.
I am from Vinhedo. A person that was closed to the accident described the plane falling like a sheet of paper... so sad...
we can see that in the video
Im from Vinhedo as well and could hear the plane from my house as it was falling. Terrifying...
@@Akaebr what did it sound like?
A retired aircraft Technician here. Keep up the great job you are doing. Very much appreciated.
Up
RYR engineer here we never covered this in any module and this was so informative. Thanks and ive followed you for years. Never got to work with you so I'm devestated.
You precisely described the chain of events phenomenon that leads to an aircraft accident. I have been involved in several of these "chains" but recognized what I was involved with and broke the chain. Well done! I am a retired United 767 pilot and have thousands of hours in turboprops. In fact, I am flying the Pilatus PC-12NG in my retirement years. Never in 58 years as a pilot have I ever heard of a commercial airliners getting into a flat spin. I am sure the answer will be starting. I was a United 737 pilot based at Chicago O'Hare in 1994 and had flown the same holding pattern where the ATR crashed in Indiana and have studied that accident.
Will be very interesting if a close record of exactly what the plane did during the transition from "normal" flight into the lead up to the flat spin can be re created. Did the crew "get behind" what the plane was doing? Did the angle of attack gradually increase due perhaps to autopilot control? (Autopilot perhaps left on too long when "hand flying" might have been more appropriate?)
Because an iced plane might experience an increase in its stall speed would the stick shaker/pusher be fooled into not activating early enough ?
@@davidpowell3347 Makes me wonder if they set the mode to maintain the flight level and the plane increased the AoA after the icing possibly occurred during a starting turn. That would give both the too low speed as well as the turning to incur a flat spin instead of a straight nose down wouldn't it?
@@davidpowell3347Hello. In the past i saw how an investigator hide information, sensor data. Not good for ATR72. I hope dont repeat in this case.
@MBSteinNL it would make it much more likely as the lower wing will stall first, draging it into the spin as the other wing stalls right after.
The aircraft could also have lost a lot of airspeed when "hit" by a severe updraft and perhaps even slowed further on exiting the updraft.
Throw in some icing and yah into a turn could lead into a flat spin.
This cruising height that the ATR usually flies at is also more problematic for ice build up
There are ATR's flying in that altitude in Norway all the time, and old ones at that, none have suffered from any similar abnormalities that caused this crash. We will see after the conclusion of the authorities, but this is sure and again, when ice is just one of the causes.
@@ainisjakubavicius6252 in the USA all ATR aircraft were sent to southern parts of the country because of this exact issue. There is no way I would ever get on one of these aircraft almost as dangerous as Boeing these days.
@@ainisjakubavicius6252They are also flying in New Zealand all the time and have been for many years. Never heard of any accidents here. Such a tragic event in Brazil. It doesn’t make me view the ATR as a plane to avoid though, but some others seem to feel this way. It would be hard to avoid them if you needed to fly within New Zealand!
@@robvoyles1985 That's true. But I fly ATRs in Florida and the Caribbean and encounter icing conditions almost every day, even in the summer. The fact is that the atmosphere gets cold enough to form ice at the altitudes at which we fly. Turbofan aircraft usually cruise at higher levels, so they are only briefly climbing and descending through icing conditions. But turboprops can be in icing the whole flight. So turboprop pilots must be extra vigilant and proficient at escaping severe icing when necessary.
@@ainisjakubavicius6252 there was an icing incident in Norway in 2016 where the plane lost 17k feet. Had they been flying at the flight level this flight was, they'd 100% crashed due to improper response to the situation, they were saved by the stick pusher.
One of my father's best friends died in the 1994 Roselawn crash. It's incredibly disheartening to see that a similar issue may have caused another tragedy 30 years later.
Sadly a lot of things in aviation happened before and will happen again.
@@Shadow__133 They learned some things from that accident, but as with aviation in general, there is still much to be learned. I hope as much as possible can be gleaned without loss of life.
Authorities don't care about the safety of ATR planes because it's a plane flown mainly by low cost airlines in poor countries.
Just seems to me, that this Type of Aircraft isn't great in severe icing, and if I was the Captain, I'd be flying lower than the icing conditions...
@@andrewcullum8437ive seen many these type of aircraft crashing. stall is almost never recoverable (imo)
Greetings from Brazil. I want to commend you for the exceptional professionalism and sensitivity shown in this video. It's evident how careful you are to avoid drawing premature conclusions about the causes of the accident, respecting the ongoing investigation and, more importantly, the families affected. This incident has deeply shocked us all, especially given the rarity of a flat spin in aviation. Thank you for your thorough and compassionate coverage. Keep up the excellent work. 🙏💥❤️
I've linked this to a close friend whose relative was among the victims of the accident. I hope it gives her some insight and I thank you for sharing it.
I was 18 & in EMT training on Halloween night of 1994.
We were located about 24 miles NW of Roselawn, IN.
My second training night was American Eagle 4184.
We arrived within an hour & I saw & smelled things I will never forget.
Federal authorities started arriving 20-30 mins later & we were told we could leave or stay & help w/ recovery.
We helped on the perimeter for a short while until additional state & federal agencies arrived.
God bless the souls of those onboard.
You have my sympathies. (Or is condolences the right word? Non-native speaker here.)
And: Thank you for your service!
@@ahoannon5711either works😊
Thank you for your time as a first responder.
As soon as I saw the videos of this tragedy, I wanted to hear Petter Mentour Pilot’s take on it. Wanting to know every detail about this accident isn’t morbid curiosity, it’s about completely understanding everything so that it never happens again!
Haha me too.
First thought was I hope he covers this soon
Hi Peter, Brazilian here, thank you for your video and all information regarding flight safety, you were so gentle with the subject, I'm only grateful for the video ❤
Going into a flat Spin in a commercial aircraft is pretty much unheard of
It has happened on a few occasions rarely
And get out of this spin still more unknown
@@Jprager I dis not know. And do they succeed to get out?
You can't get out of a flat Spin your just going along for The ride down
@@FarmSimGuy23 smaller planes it’s possible, but commercial airplanes it’s almost impossible. The engines make the plane to heavy, and usually because of how the plane comes down there’s no way of really reversing out of it
I'm a radio control (line of sight) model airplane pilot that started around 20 years ago. I had a model that was incredibly easy to get into a flat spin. And it spun very very flat with decently low vertical decent. But once in that fully committed flat spin, you COULD NOT fly out of it. The only recovery was to put it into a deep spiral dive (straight down), and once super steep spiral dive was achieved, center sticks, stop roll, arrest decent, fly out.
I just thought of my random rc airplane from many years ago as I saw this full size plane in a full flat spin that probably wasn't recoverable unless they had 10,000 feet or something to transition to spiral dive. Now with my rc airplane it was probably needed 3-500 feet vertical recovery, but it also only had a 5 foot wingspan (os46 motor).
So if you floor the gas it won’t pull ahead?
@@daleolson3506 Generally if your in a spin with left rotation, adding power will pitch the nose up and flatten the spin. In a spin with right rotation, adding power will pitch the nose down and accelerate the rotation. In both cases, adding power usually makes things worse.
Aerodynamic forces upon the wings stabilizers, rudder, of a full size aircraft are generally going to be much higher to scale, exceeding force limits on the airframe, +, the aircraft had very little altitude to work the problem if even a slim chance of recovery. From video, and tight ground debris field, it was falling in a near 0 degree Z azimuth. A terrible scenario to be in. May all lost now Rest in Peace 🕊️🙏
Not to forget AZ 460 (Milan-> Cologne) on Oct 15th, 1987 where an ATR 42 crashed into the italian Alps due to Problems with Ice.
87, 94, 02, 10, 12, 24…. when you have at least one similar accident per decade is really time to stop and consider if the model should operate in certain places or altitudes. RIP all the souls involved in all those tragic accidents.
@@biazacha Are you saying all of those happened for the same plane and all was due to icing? If so, it seems ridiculous to still allow that plane to fly in ice forming conditions.
It doesn't matter what ground temp is. Thats irrelevant. This plane should have never been allowed to fly after 94 AA crash in Indiana
@@anteshell for sure AZ 460 and the Roselawn crash are similar events. In the ATI crash, the plane was climbing through icing conditions at a too low speed (it was the correct speed according to official ATR procedures, which were actually wrong). In the American Eagle crash the plane was caught by icing conditions while in an holding pattern, but still flying at a too low airspeed. the 2012 UTair crash was due to icing, but a completely different scenario, the plane was left outside all nigth in heavy snow, and on the first flight of the next day nobody bothered to de-ice it, the plane type had nothing to do with the crash. The Taiwan and Aerocaribbean crashes involved icing indeed, but were mainly due to incorrect procedures followed by the crew.
Anyways, in Italy and France ATR aircrafts have been flying in icing conditions since the last 35 years and without a single ice-induced incident, besides ATI 460 in 1987. Pilots just learnt to activate the deicing tools (boots) before entering known icing conditions and to aim a target speed of around 160 KIAS.
@@TUPELO_HUNNY You are not particularly intelligent are you? . . .
I've always admired the graphics you guys produce, but to do so with accurate livery on such short notice is truly impressive!
Thank you very much!
Yes - but (not wanting to be the nitpicker): Passaredo is the owning Company of this Airline and also its former name, but its brand is now Voepass - and you can see the brand Voepass at the wreckage on the photos of it all over the internet.
As you said it would be unwise to jump to conclusion, but when you said "icing" in relation to an ATR, I had a bit of an uh-oh moment as I know this aircraft has built up a bit of a reputation when it comes to icing conditions.
I remember seeing an episode of Air Crash Investigation regarding an ATR crash (the one involving the de-icing boots, I think), wherein they interviewed another ATR pilot who had survived a stall event. I remember him saying that he got absolutely no warning of impending stall, "The first warning I got of an impending stall, I was in a stall", he said.
That was my reaction as well... Associating ATR + icing is bad news
Wasn't it that the pilots didn't use the boots because of obsolete airline manual regarding the aircraft's anti-ice equipment?
Or was that the the Fokker crash? Bc I thought of the same thing.
Damn, I've been flying the ATRs from Tallinn to Helsinki in all kinds of snow and ice... And it's the first I hear of this.
While I like a nice ferry trip from time to time, it won't change my plans, as from my previous experiences, the Tallinn deicing teams and Finair pilots have kept it professional and smooth every time.
But I do have my thoughts with the passengers and pilots of this doomed flight. It seems a stall from ice is quick to form, and almost impossible to fight out of, once in the throws of it. A sad reminder that flying, like any transport, isn't without it's risks.
@@mjfan653 Snow and ice isn't a problem per se. For this problem to occur, the plane has to fly through air with supercooled water droplets. That's water which has cooled below its freezing point, but is still liquid because they haven't encountered a nucleation site. Usually that's a piece of dust in the air. The irregularities in the dust surface (nucleation site) cause a part of the supercooled water to turn into ice. And at that point, the ice's surface acts as nucleation sites to turn the rest of the drop into ice. (Lots of videos showing this with bottled water or beer bottles.)
If a plane flies through supercooled water, its metal surfaces act as nucleation sites. And the water coating the wings instantly turns into ice. This ice is tightly bound to the metal surface (unlike snow or ice falling onto and building up on the wings). So the plane needs rubber boots, heated wing surface, or de-icing agent to break off the layer of ice.
The rubber anti-icing boots on the leading edge of the wing are supposed to flex and break off the ice there. And the theory is that the remaining front edge of ice will "peel off" any ice on the the metal surfaces behind the boot. But if I remember, the ATR-72's problem is that its boots don't work very well. They remove ice from the leading edge, but ice remains on the rest of the wing. Build up enough of it and the wing's profile changes, sometimes with catastrophic results.
@@solandri69 I'm not saying you're wrong, but I want to add to what you said. No airplane has ice protection behind the leading edge. All planes are susceptible to supercooled large droplets (SLDs.) That's why severe ice is defined as that which is beyond the airplane's protection capability. No airplanes are designed to sustain flight in severe icing, so that's why the procedure is to increase airspeed, descend, and escape. The pilots who fail to do those three things will likely crash.
You've got a first-class level of professionalism and flying know-how on your videos. Mr. Mentour, keep up the good work!
As a professional pilot I agree. Please don’t make content before the reports are released. Too many content creators jump to release presentations, it has a less than professional appearance. Thank you for keeping professional.
Petter and Magnar what a professional and serious combination!
After years of watching your channel it was nice to be able to explain to some friends that the plane was not flying, it was falling. And how it was a fully developed stall (or at least looked that way).
If it looks like a duck...
Entering a flat spin from that high up is about the most terrifying thing I can imagine.
Yeah.. it’s bad
Without commenting on this case, in theory if you are in a flat spin with no flight control failure, would getting all the passengers right to the front of the cabin have enough effect on the CG vs the center of 'lift' to get the nose down enough to get airflow over the rudder again to stop the spin, and then allow you to pull out? Assuming you had enough altitude.
@@jamescronin7742 Since in this situation we are talking about tens of seconds, not minutes, I think it's quite impossible to organize the passangers to do anything. It may be a better idea to try asymmetric thrust against the spin and try to get the nose down, but as mentioned these type of situations are never trained and the simulators can't even reproduce them.
@@jamescronin7742 With the Panik in the cabin and the limited times, such a maneuver would be impossible, even if we assume the shift would work. Plus, once you are in a flat spin, the forces required to exit it are large, so it is unlikely to work . So, whatever causes that spinn will be addressed, they will not come up with any recommendation on how to recover from flat spins. But without a report or the flight data recorder, we have no way of knowing why they entered the Spinn
@@kesvuori In some planes it could even be that you have to counter-intuitively steepen the spin first by applying pro-spin aileron, before then trying rudder (and possibly asymmetric thrust) to break the spin.
Truth will never come out. Is really upsetting knowing that doctors who done very much for humanity losing their life’s like this. Great video. Thank you very much.
I really appreciate this work. I am definitely a nervous flyer and always am thinking "What if this" or "what if that". UA-cam has helped alleviate a lot of fear because all these things I think of have typically happened decades ago and taken into account for modern construction and training.
Something worth mentioning, that I haven't heard so far from youtubers covering this accident, as probable cause of "yaw" after the stall, is asymmetric accumulation of ice on the wings or uneven de-icing by the boots creating adverse yaw effects. Not claiming this is what happened but this is something that can happen in icing conditions, most of the time due to failure of single boot or part of a boot.
Yaw after the stall is pure chaos at work. More airflow on one side for any momentary reason becomes _the_ reason for every moment afterwards.
One wing will stall out first starting a spiral. Application of MCT will keep the nose on the horizon. The original spiral becomes the flat spin due to the engines rotation sound the center like a gyroscope. Very difficult if not impossible to recover from in non- centerline multi- engine craft. You have to cut power and get the nose pointed down so that you recover rudder control for any chance of recovery. Time will tell if the crew followed the box list.
There were prominiant cancer-related workers on that flight btw.
I have avoided watching all the speculation about what happened to this flight, waiting for you to put out a video and knowing that you would be objective and factual without speculating or sensationalizing the accident. Thank you for this
Magnificent. I love how frequent your recent releases have been. Looking forward to more videos🙏🏾
That looks like yet another auto-generated chat-bot spam comment. 🤖👀 UA-cam is becoming such a mess.😞
I am from Brazil and we haven't had a COMMERCIAL flight crash in a long time, about 15 or 17 years... it was heartbreaking to see the news...
First time watching this channel. The quality of CGI and vfx ellements for explanation is amazing.
Greetings from Brazil.
Props to you for cooperating with Magnar on that. He is probably one of the best UA-cam pilots, always level headed, with very very deep knowledge on his beloved ATR and he has a great way to transmit this knowledge.
I commend you on your video of this sensitive topic. You successfully avoided speculation while providing known facts with this flight, unique aircraft operations and provided the history of the ATR and its issues with icing. I always appreciate your videos and find them very informative. Keep up the good work.
Thank you!
Have been waiting to hear this from you.
@MentourNow
Peter, I gotta tell you that nobody has a better grasp on how planes work or can explain things better than you! Is it any wonder why you have so many subscribers as yourself. I would always feel safe being a passenger with you in charge. Thanks a million for another great video!
One importante effect that you did not mentioned about ice bulid-up in aerodynamic surfaces is that it also can change the center of pressure position. This may be in line with the final climb that ATR did, followed by the uncontrollable descent.
What a rare type of incident! No glide. Drops level.
Sadly its all too common.
And they're rare for very good reason. Pilots are trained to avoid this sort of thing _at all costs,_ because they're extremely difficult to recover from without thrust-vectoring that's extremely rare on civilian aircraft.
(And before anyone says we should add thrust-vectoring to aircraft; it wouldn't be worth it, because it's added weight and complexity for - at least in civilian flight - some minor takeoff/landing performance gain, and use in very, _very_ rare abnormal attitude situations.
Plus, you can only really do it in a turbojet or turbofan, unless you want to swing the entire engine around.)
@@stvrob6320It's not common at all. These kinds of incidents happen once a decade or so.
@GregAbott-sl2bo Dropping out of the sky due to a stall is not unheard of though... this one is only odd due to being a flat spin.
@@marhawkman303Even in commercial aviation a full stall leading to a fatal outcome is exceedingly rare.
Thank you Mentour crew for the thoughtful and compassionate delivery when feelings around the event are still raw.
We always try to keep that in mind. Thanks for watching, I hope it helped.
Malta follower here... As a passenger that travelled recently using a similar airplane on Tunisair, i feel much relieved you have provided your first report on this terrible accident. THANKS ALOT FOR ALL THE PROFESSIONAL manner you update us.
Petter: I'll have to get a little technical here, but it will make sense I promise.
Also Petter: Explains a highly technical concept that you learn while earning your degree in a way a bloody 5 year old will grasp.
You're truly an International Gem Captian.
By far the best explanation of this accident. Thank you.
I was actually in Rio visiting my boyfriend at the time. He knows I’m a huge aviation nerd and sent me the videos saying that a “plane fell out of the sky” in São Paulo. I explained to him about stalls and what a flat spin was, and what could cause a plane to get in such a situation, including icing conditions. Admittedly, I’m not the best at identifying planes at first glance…but when I heard it was an ATR, my mind immediately flashed back to the American Eagle crash. I can’t imagine how horrible it was for everybody aboard.
The accident is a sad tragedy, I have already seen a lot of speculation in the mainstream media, something which is an insult to the memory of those who lost their lives and very upsetting for their families. Excepting for reporting of accidents, the media should avoid commenting further unless or until they get official press releases by the airline, the investigating body(s) or the aircraft manufacturers. It will certainly be very interesting once the report comes out.
Thanks for the update Petter, very professional without sensationism...
I wholeheartedly agree. And would add that I have never seen an incident where the speculation and early media reports were accurate.
Speculation is what keeps people engaged and pressure for an efficient investigation.
@@Shadow__133 Speculation is not part of a professional investigation for several reasons.
It directs attention towards the speculation and thus away from the evidence.
Speculation prefers simple quick explanations (like finding a single cause).
Because speculation is based on opinions rather than data, it's vulnerable to misdirection and coverups.
Professional investigators are specifically trained to avoid speculating, but instead to maintain an open mind and follow only where the data leads. They are trained to examine all the evidence and seek complete explanations, rather than to seek evidence that supports their pre-conclusions and close the case once they cherry pick enough.
Pressure to give quick believable answers, absolutely does not support detailed scientific investigation.
@@j_taylor It keeps public engagement and pressure over a real professional investigation and raise awareness to other worries that would otherwise be ignored, such as federal agencies role and efficiency in overseeing airline practices, lack of better forecasting and weather reporting tools, and foster engagement even here. We are talking about it, right?
@@j_taylor Absolutely. But outside of professional investigations, I don't think it is particularly harmful to consider the possibilities as the general public. As long as we also keep open minds about how several factors had to be at play, thinking about what might have influenced the result of this accident isn't a bad thing. Icing likely had an effect based on the SIGMET and multiple examples of accidents occurring to the same exact type of aircraft due to icing. As long as we acknowledge that there are certainly other factors and that icing may not have even been involved despite a high likelihood, this sort of speculation is reasonable.
Thank you for taking the time to make this extra episode. It is really helpful.
- proud to be a member of the Patreon crew
Thank you, too!
Thanks Piotre ~ I thought I was the only nervous flyer 😅
It helps to hear you tell these stories.
Thank-you ❤
Thanks again, for another great educational video ❤
Hi Petter,
As a Brazilian I want to express my gratitude for the way that you abord the subject.
The way that you explain, talk and graphics make easy for people to understand.
17 years ago we had a big incident with an Embraer jet and a Gol airplane that caused a lot of commotion when a lot of souls were lost. Since of that, Brazil improved a lot to make sure ever flight will be as safe as possible.
I saw your replay of the video and immediately recognized the "flat spin" of the aircraft. It also caused a flashback to a general aviation crash that 1) missed crushing my moving car by 2-3 seconds and 2) I was the only witness (per communication from the USA NTSB). This is one of 5 times in my life I've looked the _Grim Reaper_ in the eye and dodged successfully.
Nobody will be surprised when the reports mention icing as a factor. Thanks for this video.
yes, because lowflying planea in Brazil, in the summer, always have problems with icing...yeah, thats the ticket, that icy Brazillian summers, totally not becaue the plane was full of cancer docs/researchers who had said they had big news, becaue big business would never do anything to bad to protect a multi-billion dollar industry that feeds off human suffering, damn tinfoil hat isnt working!
nobody gonna talk about that team of scientists?
Peter, really great explained and visualized. Thank you!
I was waiting for this video, thanks
Thank you Petter and crew for a thoughtful and well done preliminary explanation of only what we can see. Your restraint and compassion are second to none. RIP to the souls aboard and condolences to their loved ones.
Thank you for this video Petter. I have watched Magnar's video as well, and you both do a good job of calmly explaining the known facts as well as explaining the possible contributing factors.
Glad you found it helpful!
A very dignified and compassionate video. Thankfully someone wants to inform rather than go for clicks. I learned a lot.
On that plane there was a 5-year-old little girl who was traveling with her father to spend Father's Day together (Here in Brazil, Father's Day is celebrated on the second Sunday of August), when the firefighters went to collect the bodies, the two were hugging each other. There was also a Venezuelan child who was with a puppy, all of them were found charred (including the dog itself), all the passengers were found charred, in addition to the other doctors and ALL THE LIVES that were on that plane.This accident was very tragic and much heavier than you guys imagine and the families are devastated, there were many people whose dreams were interrupted and they lost their lives. At this moment there is not much to ask questions or question because unfortunately we do not have all the answers, just pray for the families, friends and loved ones of the victims, Please pray for the families! 🙏 I wish everyone reading this a great day/night and good health always!
these people didn't paid for tickets to death , there are people responsible for that disaster , we must find what is the cause , that will help prevent another failure and thus save lives
Hopefully God will give strength and help these families who lost their loved ones.
According Canadian ctv news -
The 8 doctor’s 7 doctor friends took an earlier flight to Sao Paulo. Originally they were planning all 15 be in this flight.
@@tunkunrunk ATRs cant handle icing too much...
@@capivara9016 I'm sure ATR is aware of that issue , and its engineers have probably fixed it for a long now . There's a procedure that pilots have to follow too
Considering the speed the plane hit the ground, and reviewing crash scene photos, it is highly unlikely people would be hugging when found.
After you said (roughly quoting here) "After the incident in 1994 they implemented new safety features etc" I thought to myself "Oh great, I'm sure the accident this time is the first one since then" and then the next cut is "In 2002, another plane crashed due to icing and this was then followed by another crash in 2010 and finally in 2012 there was another one"
Indeed. And if you add to the ATR 72 the other model, the ATR 42, there was even another crash caused by icing: back in 1987 (!) in Italy.
So, in fact, this Aircraft is really known to be sensitive to Icing.
And you missed the moment when he said that the crash was induced by procedures not being followed in icing conditions…
The one in 2012 was MUCH more influenced by it being a) in Russia, b) after a snowstorm c) noone bothered deice the airplane lol
The problem is that T-tail designs in general are a bad idea on airplanes with high wings. It's an oddly designed aircraft that really should be no longer produced, IMO.
ie - there's nothing to fix as the design has problems that can't be fixed.
Check the weather before flying here lol
A stall is a must for a spin to occur and i will never forget my instructor when he described a stall in one word: "insidious"
This channel is a perfect example of combining quality and quantity. Fantastic job!
Mr Magnar Nodal is a well experienced pilot also thank you for all your videos sirs regarding aviation God bless to both of you and keep safe also🙏❤️
Thank you for your valuable work, which hopefully helps to prevent such tragic accidents. It is certainly not easy to talk about all this and it is always impressive how instructive you report Petter. That is always impressive. All the best to you, your family and team!
Special thanks to your Graphics Team...Excellent work in supplementing your fantastic verbal descriptions!
As soon as I saw the news about this horrific crash, I thought about you. But I wasn't expecting a video that early! I'm happy you decided to talk about the situation. Very interesting, as usual.
I am addicted to your videos, Petter. If you one day will stop making them, I think I might end up in a rehab clinic
At least we would have a wonderful archive to watch, Tom. 😅
@@annemoar5743 absolutely. And I often do.
Mentour Deprivation Therapy.
I always watch air crash investigation when flying, makes the journey less dull.
Hands down the best channel about aviation on youtube.
Maybe something I think is curious is why this situation is not something you can replicate in a simulator? Is it a limitation in the simulators and their systems, or do we not have enough knowledge of the physics behind such a flatspin to do a representation of it in a simulator?
@@NikolajHansen I assume the physics as such are very well known, but the simulator can't induce believable spinning motion, or even rapid downwards acceleration
You've brought up a series of good points. One of them - especially with an aircraft like the ATR - is avoidance. I happen to live some 18 miles from the accident site. But allow me to call your attention to some extra points: 1) if the icing on the wing significantly disrupts the airflow, the wing may stall at angles of attack much lower than those that trigger stick shaker/stick pusher/annunciators. In other words: the stall may take the crew by surprise, without warning, because the stall protection is based on the "normal" pre-stall angle of attack. 2) If the icing is asymmetrical, it may cause a yaw, which combined with a stall causes a spin. By looking at the video footages, I estimate (roughly) that the angle of attack during the spin was very high, something between 30 and 60 degrees, which in fact suggests the possibility of super stall, or deep stall. Combined with the angular rate and the moment of inertia around the Z axis, the aircraft could have ended up in an unrecoverable situation. Let us wait for the preliminary report, which is some 20 days away.
Indeed very good points, too.
A very clinical analysis. Covered almost all aspects. Did the probes get blocked? Did the alpha vanes get stuck? Hope we get answers. Till the whole investigation gets done - I read your post as an interim report! You must be an educated pilot.
You are asking very relevant questions. The ATR72 has all the probes at the forward fuselage, including static, alpha vanes, pitot tubes and ice detector. Finding acceptable spots for static ports on a propeller aircraft is difficult, because the propellers bend and twist the airflow, turning pressure distribution on the surface to something very chaotic. That is probably the reason why ATR placed the static ports near the nose, well ahead of the propellers. But the downside of it is the risk of accumulating ice, even if heated, in severe icing conditions. Same about the alpha vanes. Alpha vanes align with the airflow, and if something makes the deflection of alpha vanes difficult, you have a BIG problem. But again, the investigators are hard at work and we have to wait for their findings. There is people not only from Brazil's CENIPA (the department in charge of investigations of aircraft accidents here) but also from the US's NTSB, from EASA, from the FAA and from ATR. A preliminary report will be issued in roughly 20 days from now.
I was waiting for this vid!
Been binging your channel obsessively for the past few weeks, and when this crash happened, the 1st thing I thought of was Mentour
What a tragedy still, RIP to all the victims 😢
Petter, you put so much into these videos. Thank you for spending the time and being so thorough in all of your videos. Very informative. RIP to all those involved. A very sad accident.
You explained very nicely. In this case, there should be an autopilot recovery which can recover from flat spin.
Physics says nope. No pilot, auto or otherwise, can recover a fully developed flat spin.
@@candydandy2694 Thanks. Turbo fans are working. We can use some algorithms to recover with the help of turbo fans.
@@candydandy2694 That depends on the airframe among a dozen othe rfactors
Type rated in 747, 747-4, 737, 757, 767, Flown all over planet earth in most extreme conditions , None of these aircraft pick up ice . I have used wing anti ice only a hand full of times . The ATR 72 is a dangerous aircraft . It should be grounded world wide, and I would not let my family fly on it . End of story . Icing conditions in a transport aircraft are an everyday occurrence , and nearly unavoidable . This airplane has no business flying passengers . The fact that it's flying today , and still crashing for the same reason American Eagle did 30 years ago should tell you everything you need to know about what the value of life is ........ God bless all those people on that airplane who lost their lives .....Excellent video!
In fact all the video is about why atr72 is not a good aircraft to fly
This has to be one of the most dangerous passenger aircrafts. How many airframes have to be lost and how many people have to die before it is banned from flying? A flying coffin!
@drnick40 like the max yeah? Oh wait it's boeing so it's OK.
@@admiralsnackbar69 the Max is another piece of work that shouldn’t fly…
Looks like the wings on the ATR are far back, if CG is 1/3 of the chord, would that not make the CG of this plane amid ship, thus contributing to a flat spin especially exacerbated by icing?
I am a pilot.
I have SPUN a lot of planes.
When you get CLOSE TO STALL, you do one thing, IMMEDIATELY.
Drop the nose, PICK UP SPEED.
IN ICING, EVEN MORE SO.
This is seat of pants flying
You feel it on the controls.
Too large motors.
Once spinning starts - you can not stop it.
I am not a pilot, and I have a question. If the ATR was on auto-pilot, would the pilots feel or otherwise know of the impending stall?
It’s not really about speed.
@@Eternal_Techprobably.
@@Eternal_Tech depends. Probably and in fact very likely they would, but it’s not 100%.
@@peteconrad2077 Thank you for responding. I wonder how much time they would have had to react. The final report, I assume, after analysis of the CVR and FDR, will have information on this.
There seems to be a HIGH likelihood that whatever happened, human error was part of the problem, like it was not just in previous ATR icing crashes but in SO many other airplane crashes. So REGARDLESS of what we can learn from Peter and his reassurances about how safe general aviation is, it seems to be that we are really only as safe as the ability of both pilots to properly handle an emergency situation or even just to follow proper procedures in general.
I think that the reality is that humans will always be capable of making mistakes, and there is a chance for pretty much anything to go wrong. (Not just in aviation, in all scenarios) So, saying that flying is very safe is basically saying that it is among the safest things we could do while still being mindful that there is always the potential for something to happen. I don't want this to be fearmongering or anything, I think this is just realistic
@@inf3rnal_embers145 Well said.
That is exactly what was concluded by the final crash report in Colgan Air 3407. The rapidly increasing altitude gain on this ATR, before dropping like a brick can only be caused by one thing, that is, the same thing that was done on flight 3407. What is even more worrying is that we do not know if the pilots checked the weather reports, and if they did, knowingly flew into severere icing conditions, where the planes manuals says avoid.
I remember when i was a nervous flier. I was at the airport early May 2013 to fly back and fourth a couple times to texas and fb feed shows me National Airlines Flight 102 crashing. To which one of the flights back we ended up flying over the moore 2013 tornado and just feeling that turbulence from that massive storm. Several years later it got cured when i took a southwest flight from boca to kc and it was so empty and so smooth i literally fell asleep across the seats. (To which then i landed during the LA floods feb 2017 and that was the roughest landing ive ever experienced. And i was thankful i was way more calm)
I am a nervous flyer. Thank you so much. You have helped me.
I've been waiting for this but I know you want to get it right and we should all appreciate that, especially with the investigation just starting. But I'm glad you made at least something on it. Thank you
This is the fourth crash of an ATR due to icing conditions. I was actually aware previously of this plane's susceptibly in this regard.
We don’t know yet if it was icing.
@@camillabrifjord727 There were reports about extreme icing in that exact area before the accident. It wasn’t the sole reason why the plane fell, but definitely was a factor.
@@camillabrifjord727 Every single indicator imaginable points in that direction, for now nearly everyone is going with this unless found otherwise.
In addition with the ATR 42 it is even the fifth Crash of an ATR due to Icing conditions: Back in 1987 an ATR 42 crashed in Italy due to this reason.
@@NicolaW72 It's pretty clear the ATR gets out of control very very quickly in severe icing conditions. Nearly all the ATRs in the US and Canada have been removed for this reason. The ATR has *always* been criticised for just having de-icing boots (for such a large RPT plane) instead of a proper bleed air system that all other airliners have.
Very informative. Thank you. Condolences to the families of those who perished on this flight.
When I first saw this, it seemed improbable. Then I heard it to be in the southern hemispere. Which is winter right now.
Thank you for explaining this horror accident so quickly and professionally Peter. These are the accidents that can contribute to becoming anxious when you fly. But your explanation helps to better understand what happened and that already gives peace in the period until the conclusions of the investigations come.