Ethical Omnivore: Is It Possible?
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Is it the moral dietary solution you've been waiting for or just happy words in front of not-so-happy things?
Links and Sources:
/ micthevegan
/ micthevegan
/ micthevegan - @micthevegan
Chicago Vegan Food and Drink Fest:
www.vegandrink...
My Vid: • Chicago Vegan Food and...
Melanie Murphy explaining her Ethical Omnivorism:
• Video
Source of many quotes:
EthicalOmnivore.org
Details of Whole Foods Sustainable/Ethical Meat:
tinyurl.com/j39...
40% of the world's coal is from strip mining:
www.greenpeace....
Quote by chicken spokesman on free range chickens:
www.peta.org/is...
Adventist II Review (all those health stats about vegans):
www.ncbi.nlm.ni...
7% of the population is anemic (Approximated from sexes): www.aafp.org/af...)
Iron, Vitamin C, and Absorption study:
www.ncbi.nlm.ni...
Michael Pollan plant intelligence:
www.newyorker.c...
I've got some organic, free range, humanely raised Golden Retriever meat.
Invite Melanie Joy over for dinner!
Anabolic Amaranth lmao!
So, now you bark?
I see shades of ethical-ness. I applaud folks heading in the more ethical direction from where ever they are at. That was my path and now I'm vegan. We are all a work in progress.
Mic, can you approach the state extension offices and get them at the debate table? Until the educational institutions are veganized there will be no stopping the cycling of animals through the meat egg and dairy industries and preparation and consumption of them by humans. At least post your videos on their sites for comment. Love what you're doing here.
there is no possible way to ethically murder, murder is killing something that wants to live.......impossible
SUG1MARA Ishamura You are right, animals DO NOT want to die. We have no right to murder them and they have every right to live. That's why I hate hunters and fishermen more then animal farmers. I myself go to great Lengths to cause the least harm I can to insects as they to want to live. I NEVER kill insects I find in my home and most of the time I watch my step. It's just how I am as a person I was born compassionate. I know your comment is 8 months old but you name more sense then the other comments I see. So I wanted to show you that someone on the internet agrees with someone else for once.
That is not what murder is. It literally has a definition.
Excellent matrix analogy
All the local beef farmers that i know sell calves to feed lots. So what you see is healthy cows in green pastures but that's not the reality of it.
Mike: could you please do a video about the Weston Price Foundation? I am so sick of seeing meat eaters cite that crap as a source of scientific information.
Yes! I have been planning on doing one for a while. I will throw that in the queue.
Mic. the Vegan Thanks!
this is a non sense dude , no one even vegan can be 100 % sure that what they use do not involve cruelty that doesn'ìt mean their intention are not good , so ethical omnivores are the same , they are going to the right direction , for a vegan a chicken has to go extinct , for an ethical omnivore has to live in a good condition , so let decide a chicken if she like to live in a farm in ethical way or to be useless and go extinct because now all the workd has to eat vegan pancakes etc...
I'm an ethical cannibal. My meat is educated, loved and kept cold in the morgue. Ethical cannibal.
this is the best comment i have ever read. i just almost shit myself.
haha same, ethical omnivore makes no sence
onceuponanexploration animals are not on the same moral plain as us. my honest belief is anything that does not care if i live or die means i do not have to care if they do.
This is very true. Not the same moral plane. Most humans waste their life consuming massive amounts of resources, increasing global warming, just pleasuring themselves or seeking a life of maximum pleasure. So yes, animals are on a higher moral plane. Except cows because they are the leading cause of global warming.
This analogy is gold
Sigh. People will do anything to continue to remain ignorant just to eat meat and dairy.
+Eli D Ignorant about what exactly?
I know... you'd think meat and dairy were their literal life-force or part of their soul or something, the way they refuse to give it up. Like. It's just meat. and dairy. What is so powerful about it? Why does it have this hold over people?
But ecosystems would collapse if everyone went vegan
I don't care if an animal lived cage-free, hormone-free, antibiotic-free, etc. I don't care if the farmer gave it daily massages, hugs and kisses. Every animal that is bred into existence because there is a demand for its meat, secretions, skin, etc. will ultimately be put to death. It is always cruel.
Even if the meat eaters out there stopped watching, the content of your videos still helps vegans.
I didn't know meat eaters ever watched my videos XD lol. I am happy just helping vegans too :)
I assume there are a lot of othe vegetarians like me who also watch and "like" your vids.
Yeah with 1526 likes to 24 dislikes it's pretty unlikely too many meat-eaters are watching :D Probably many "to-be" vegans in their transitioning of vegans.
I prefer unapologetic meat eaters to ethical omnivores.
At least the unapologetic are honest with themselves.
+1 These people are so kidding themselves, here's another word trick EOM doesn't slaughter, they use "humane" slaugther
Unapologetic omnivore checking in.
Lol, they know the awful things they do, eating dead animals just for the heck of it, I hear you, rather have them realize what they are doing than anything else
Me not.. better someone with a bad conscious who is lying to themselves, than someone with no conscious at all. The first one has a chance to be convinced that he/she is wrong, for the second one there is no hope.
I wish meat eaters would just eat roadkill -_-
Yes, I would even wait if they block the road. "Eat away, dear carnist. Happy salmonella and e.coli 😂 and no, I won't pass you any salt and pepper or bbq 😂"
Some of them actually do!! I saw this show where this one gross guy collected road kill, some rotting, and made a meal for his friends. Revolting.
brama More power to him. Haha
Angelina Ⓥ
As long as he's not killing anything then I agree. :O)
Good one! That what humans use to do probably... They were scavengers... we can not do much more without tools...
No it's not possible unless it's otherwise not practicable to be Vegan.
Also - FIRST!
I suppose if you're scavenging for dead animals (sort of like a freegan hunter), then it could theoretically be ethical. Grass fed, free range, and whatever are all buzz words to make people feel better about themselves, though.
Oh no, that is definitely the next thing! There will be a humane roadkill meat industry and then people are going to start raising animals and guiding them into the road to cut corners and increase profit. Oh the humanity ;)
Lucky bastard
"otherwise not practicable to be Vegan" is that how you excuse yourself when eat Mcdonalds while waiting for the train?
Hmm if it's not practicable to have a plant-based diet aren't you still technically a vegan if you don't participate in other kinds of exploitation? (Provided that by non - practical we mean the extremely rare circumstance where it's impossible to obtain any vegan alternative in a time period that's smaller than the time period which is enough to kill the person from lack of food).
I used to be what I called 'freerangetarian', which I guess is the same as ethical omnivore. I would try to avoid foods with questionable animal products, and would only buy meat, dairy and eggs labelled free range.
One day I found an article on what the actual standards for getting your food labelled as free range were, and the minimum requirements were waaaaay waaaaay below what I thought was acceptable.
I did a bunch of research, trying to find a local ethical butcher, and couldn't find a single farm that didn't do at least one thing I considered humane (for me it was usually the fact that, no matter how nicely the animal was raised, it was still trucked for days on end with no food and water to a slaughterhouse).
I did what most ethical omnivores won't do - I refused to eat any animal products that didn't fit my idea of an ethical way of treating animals. And that meant becoming vegan.
SAD eaters are so habituated that if they don't have animal products in their meals, they feel DEPRIVED and somehow CHEATED. That's how SAD it is.
wtf man.
"Sustainable Animal Diet"? *shrugs*
Well every dairy is addicting. Cheese even more than milk. Compressed "baby get addicted and come to drink enough milk" stuff. But people don't get they are adults.
Standard American Diet.
Ethical omnivores are CRUELLY KIND to animals.
Kindly cruel!
Killing them softly with their love 🐰🐤🐄🐷😢
"Ya gotta be ... Cruel to be kind ... " :)
No matter how you put it, killing animals is still killing animals!!
Lexi Garrett they know. OP was being sarcastic.
People love to find new and exciting ways to do the wrong things... And on and on we go...
+Eli D don't be stupid.
He has a point, though. When, as vegans, we become sensitized to the violence of the food system, we begin to see that omnivores are victims of this food system as well, primarily as a result of cultural and media indoctrination. People do wrong because they don’t know how to do right, basically, so should we hate the sin or the sinner? Honestly, I don't see nonvegans -- _not-yet vegans_, as I call them -- as the enemy; the system is the enemy, and by _system_, I mean the paradigm that animals exist only for us to use and abuse. Who are we, in the end, to blame, shame and complain when, instead, we can explain, gain and sustain? That said, speaking in hushed tones regarding what we all want as anti-speciesist vegans will only further sabotage our message. Meekness, similarly, is not in any way persuasive. If our ultimate goal is to become a mass movement for the animals and the planet, then we need to be effective above all else. We need to build bridges rather than burn them. This is something that I remind myself every day. Polite, persuasive and positive persistence multiplied by truth, tips and tricks -- PPPP x TTT: That's how you change minds and win hearts, I reckon.
Hey Mic, You are literally saving lives by educating the public. I'm also a health educator and I will continue to advertise your videos. Keep up the good work.
Ethical omnivores, ethical murderers. No logic seen here.
I was previously one of those vegans that became an "ethical omnivore" after having first gone vegan for health reasons, with the idea that it would somehow be a more natural and thereby a more healthy dietary option. After a short while I realised just how difficult it was to say no to eggs/dairy etc. when visiting someone or being out for dinner, when I already ate those items at home. Questioning the quality of animal foods when out was way more challenging than ever just simply stating that I was vegan. When I finally woke up to the thruth that a vegan diet (and of course lifestyle) in fact was the most wholesome way of life and by far the most ethical, I could do no better that to go back to veganism. Having been an ethical omnivore I know that the line on ethics can get very blurry, and that when you really do take the time to think about it with an open mind you most likely come to the realisation that the most ethical way of living is in fact living vegan.
Jana van Rooyen I was exactly the same. It’s so hard to explain to people you won’t eat their eggs because they aren’t free range or the lasagne they made because of the source of the meat. People take it personally. I went back to being a vegan, I’m way happier.
Something I've observed about "ethical omnivores" is that their ethics seem far more centered around group norms or offending your host than about treating animals well. It seems to me like the lines get blurry if telling your friend "no thank you" calls them out. Because that's why people get offended when you won't eat with them or take their food, because they know by doing so you're telling them "yeah I'm pretty sure that cheese is factory farmed." I had a professor as an undergraduate who seemed hell bent on NEVER providing a vegan option at group gatherings. Vegetarian yes, vegan no, and she would even say things, like yeah I don't know if this will accommodate all dietary preferences. Because there's that thing with celebrity chefs and those kind of assholes in the foodie movement, this idea that being vegan or even vegetarian is somehow RUDE because it makes other people have to think or question themselves. Ethical omnivore is kind of like the social justice movement, it's very neoliberal/academia/politically correct way for assholes to bond with each other but in reality do very little for anyone else, even while shaming others for being racist or not eating local meat.
Only way to be an ethical omnivore is if the only meat you eat is roadkill, provided you don't deliberately kill the animals with your car.
What's amazing is that most meat eaters would vomit at the thought of eating road kill... even if they accidentally killed an animal they'd never go over to it and carve off some flesh for dinner.
Then again some gross people would do that.
Exactly.
brama that's exactly what we used to do, and people still do it around the world.
Christopher Ward
I saw something where people did go around collecting road kill. One guy didn't care if it was decomposing or not. It was so gross.
I disagree, if you were truly a ethical omnivore you wouldn't eat roadkill, you'd advocate for drivers to be safer around animals and have laws against killing an animal on the road, whether intentional or not just as you would have to face the charges if you kill a human on the road. And ethical omnivores would eat the animals that die of other causes such as sickness and old age.
Lol I got reamed on someone else's comment section for saying "ethical omni is f'ing ridiculous." Ream on haters, it's not possible ;)
Great video! You're so right about not actually reducing animal product intake like you think you do. Before going vegan, I was vegetarian with the intention of being vegan one day, but in the meantime I "rarely eat dairy and eggs anyway". Looking back now, it was not as reduced as I thought. Sure, I never cooked with animal products at home, but when I went out to eat, I didn't look for places with vegan options, I just at the vegetarian options. Going to friends' houses or other social events, I didn't avoid the pizza and baked goods and cheese platters. When visiting my bf's family, I ate egg and cheese sandwiches everyday. It just didn't happen like I thought and now I notice how often it is presented to me and how much I used to jump at the opportunities to eat it because "well I eat it so little I can enjoy it right now". I'm so happy and proud to now be living a guilt free ethical (and healthy) lifestyle.
Great video. The term ethical omnivore is just an astute marketing ploy aimed at salving the troubled consciences of meat-eaters.
This is a great quote
+BC Walk 🙂
are you referring to lions?
Do you know any meaters that have a troubled conscience? I don’t.
EXACTLY
The iron argument makes me laugh! I'm a pregnant & breastfeeding vegan and just got my blood tests back. My iron is higher then it ever was as a meat eater.
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a year or so ago i started consciously thinking about what each animal i was eating was. visualizing the eyes of a calf i saw at a fair, the mothering hens i used to keep as pets, etc. it started off as an odd "respect" thing for the animal, but it didn't take long to start feeling nauseous every time i ate meat. (which is why i'm no longer eating it)
my point though is that you can't truly respect the animal and continue to eat it with a clear conscious, it's impossible.
These so-called ethical omnivores are a piece of work. I have more respect for a meat eater who readily admits that what they're doing is selfish than one who makes up lame excuses to try to feel better about themselves.
So true. This EOs are lying, deceiving, cunning bustards. Hypocrites galore.
Same for me but unstead of 'more respect' I'd say 'less disrespect' ^_^
Tom Bombadil Ⓥ Haha, yeah, that would be more accurate to say. ^_^
Situs Inversus dang, who hurt you?
Yet you eat plants which are also living things
time to post this video in Melanie murphy's channel
It's odd that "Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollen was actually what got my wheels turning towards veganism. He brought up questions about animal feed, the monoculture crops, killing wild animals, etc. that brought me to conclusions that led me to more vegan oriented literature and abolitionism. I got his questions, but did not get his conclusions, so in many ways I owe him a lot even if he is a twisted weirdo now. At least I followed through on his questions about meat eating and made my way to veganism where I am very happy to be hanging out for the past 4 years.
I am happy that you were able to come to sane conclusions on your own when hearing about the travesty that is animal agriculture. His train of thought is akin saying "sweatshops are bad...so we should get them better chairs." But any sane person would say "stop the sweatshops!" We need to stop the animal farming.
Catherine Besch That's awesome!
Can't believe I stumble upon your comment here:) Thank you for what you have contributed to help animals in VN. Keep going strong❤
even if a package says "sustainable" it's probably not true. Nothing actually stops the industry from lying or misguiding
This is true, I swear every person that buys this stuff is a sucker, you're paying more for a different label, it's no different than buying something that more expensive just because it's a name brand. Just buy the shit where they're honest with you and don't take you as a fool.
I think reducetarianism/flexitarianism can be useful as a stepping stone to vegetarianism or veganism. I started out limiting my meat consumption to 2-3 times per week, and then I went lacto-ovo vegetarian, and now I'm working on reducing my dairy consumption. From my personal experience, gradual transition works, and I think the ethical omnivore movement and campaigns like Meatless Mondays can work as a useful jumping-off point for many people.
EXACTLY! And that's what far too many vegans simply fail to understand.
First of all, it already helps if you eat "only" half as much meat as before.
And second, this is a process. Normally, you don't stop at eating half as much meat. The process continues.
A sociologist recently conducted a study that showed that flexitarians actually don't usually eat less meat. What you're describing is transitioning. My experience is different than a lot of vegans because I didn't like meat as a child, like I HATED it, and only legitimately enjoyed fish. I would eat poached eggs for dinner, and get broccoli cheese baked potatoes at Wendy's and bean burritos at Taco Bell. I started ordering vegetarian pizzas in the 5th grade. I basically kept eating meat because I was STRONGLY conditioned to - practically forced - by a traditional authoritarian family. I remember having to sit at the table because I wouldn't eat my meat, and feeding it to the dog under the table. Soooo "flexitarianism" for me was a way of life until I became vegetarian then eventually vegan. And it works for some people. Like you. BUT most "flexitarians" or "ethical omnivores" I know (and I live in Northern California and am surrounded by these assholes) romanticize local meat, hunting, and will jibber jabber about grassfed until you literally have to show them a scientific study, and then they get MAD. Also, the sociologist who did the study concluded that asking people to be vegan (or at least vegetarian) is far more effective than asking them to reduce. Because if you keep the bar low, people will go lower. You want to keep the bar HIGH at vegan, so if they "fail" it will still be at vegetarian or pescetarian, not at some ludicrous masquerade of a gluttonous, elitist foodie pretending to to be an environmentalist.
I went vegetarian this year, but I do have two domestic hens who, occasionally, lay eggs. There is no rooster involved, so these eggs will never be chickens. Would it be ethical to eat these eggs, and no other animal product? (The hens aren't laying right now, so I haven't eaten any eggs)
Ethical omnivores who want to buy local food can never be sure if the food that animals eat is local, unless they grow their own animals or know the farmer personally and ask question, but even then eating out is complicated because those local animals probably eat not that local food.
Eating meat isn't even selfish. It's plain stupid because you're harming yourself in the long run.
Melanie Murphy works for a brand awareness agency so i have to think the videos must be advertising.
I think Melanie Murphy has a good chance at going back to Vegan..esp if she isn't bullied..a lot of people have to try a few times before they are successful with any life style change.....
I'm not entirely sure animal agriculture will continue to be sustainable. Maybe on a small, limited scale, but with environmental concerns continually increasing, plus a growing world population, at some point animal farming and agriculture to support livestock just won't be feasible, imo.
Stella Perkins That's not even an opinion anymore. That's a fact.
That Ethical Omnivore website is not only speciesist, it’s extremely right-wing too. It endorses Ben Shapiro and bashes Greta Thurnberg 😾
I think the only way you could be an ethical omnivore is by eating lab grown meat on an otherwise plant based diet.
You titled the video about whether being an ethical omnivore is possible or not, not whether most people who call themselves ethical omnivores are actually ethical or not. So the whole “you don’t make sure all the animal products you consume comes from good sources” argument falls short there. Even if most don’t, that doesn’t mean it isn’t possible to do so. I’m sure some people do. I agree with most of the rest though, treated well or not while alive they’re still slaughtered in the end. Eggs really seem to be the only animal product possible to be produced ethically (possible, definitely not common or practical for sales).
So basically unless you’ve got a farm in prehistoric times you’re kidding yourself....
Sad, but I agree and I am an evil meat eater. At least I can accept my hypocrisy
Just been watching a few of your excellent videos.
A bit over 1 year into intended veganism (as opposed to vegetarian), I am working towards refining a lot of my knowledge on the topic, so as to eventually become 100% vegan.
Lack of information on certain products or understanding of some ethical issues has made me less than completely vegan, but it is getting there. I didn't know about certain emulsifiers for example.
I have gradually phased down a lot of items , first from a veg diet, into a 95% vegan diet, into a 95% vegan lifestyle.
I still consider myself a vegan, as my moral ethics and intent is to reduce the killing, suffering and exploitation of animals as much as I can. it is a long process to get to 100%, however, I also feel that sometimes, too much dogma can create conflict(how do u refuse an intended veg meal lovingly prepare for you by non veg people from a different culture because it has a small non vegan ingredient in it? I just overlook that bit of fish stock flavouring or shrimp paste!)so I have to occasionally be a little flexible .
I also eat the ofdd veg food if it is going to be thrown away (I work as a petsitter and when people go on holidays, they leave things in the fridge which I have the choice to throw away or eat).
I am finding my way. And I still consider myself a vegan.
One way I find a real man is one that cares about what happens to the animals and fights for their rights! Now that's a man, now thats masculine!!!!
This group should be called “I care, but not enough to get off my ass for 2 fucking seconds”.
I thought about it several times. Veganism is like taking the red pill. Now we have to defeat the machines!
Yes, but only if you eat animals that are a threat to the envoirenment, including humans.
you are such a stud! WHERE can I find a boyfriend like you?
You're like the Vsauce of the vegan community!
I hate how they say sufficient for all stages of life. It's not sufficient it perfect
Youre awesome Mic! Thanks for everything
you are freaking amazing and you know how to pull a punch on people's hypocrisy. thanks
You can absolutely eat animals and animal products ethically. Road kill for example.
I just published a short video on "omnivore hypocrisy" - you'll like that one mike.
There is no humane way to kill animals!
Hey Mic, first wanted to say I really appreciate you making these research based video. You should make a video regarding protein synthesis and building muscle as I feel like there a huge misconception. Thanks!
Completely agree with what you said about Pollan. His 'message' to eat less meat was totally lost in Cooked
Yeah, he should just call it "Cooked Meat."
Ethical Omnivore is like Ethical Pedophile... The two words just don't go together.
I can see it like a decision point when all your life you were taught eating animal products, but at some point you start realizing that there is something wrong with that, so you can start searching for excuses and decide that you want to be an "ethical" omnivore or you can start searching for a solution and you eventually will become vegan.
John Smith does it make any difference?
+John Smith fine. Ethical rape? Ethical homicide?
Love has never killed or hurt anyone. That's absolutely ethical. You have to distinguish between love and sex. When it comes to heterosexual and homosexual intercourse, both people involved are consenting adults and mentally equal. That's the reason why having sex with a child is 100% unethical, because a child is never mentally equal to an adult and is definitely not able to see the whole situation.
John Smith so a person who hasn't raped anyone, who doesn't own child pornography, who is not involved in any [sexual] actions towards children can still be considered a pedophile by your standards? Do you even logic?
John Smith also being an Islamic Extremist is not a crime - it's just the way of thinking, so there is no problem being Ethical Islamic Extremist. You just keep it to yourself, and don't force your views on other etc etc etc...
ANIMALS DO NOT BELONG TO US. Once we realize this, that animals or parts of them are NOT our property and we cannot "use" them anyhow, there would not even be arguments like this to discuss.
Imagine a similar debate about "ethical slavery" or "ethical human exploitation", who would ever consider even to talk about it?
If we all do it there isn't enough space to farm ethically omnivorously even if it was ok! Hardly environmentally friendly! I used to be in this delusion. Now I just eat plants! Easy!
"WHAT IS THIS, CARL?"
lmao
If they have to try to find reasons to justify what they're eating that's a clear sign that they feel guilty. I don't have to justify eating a stalk of broccoli because there is no guilt with that. However when I was a meat eater, I had to try to lie to myself so I could kep eating animals which didn't work at all. Ive been vegan for almost 7 monthes now and I love it!
I just don't get it. People obviously understand the ethical implications of eating meat and will do anything they can to put their minds at ease about it, given the rise of things like "sustainable" and "free range" meat. Yet the only way to quell the ethical dichotomy and for whatever reason the way most people choose not to go anyways is veganism. Makes no sense to me
So what if I almost always eat vegan at restaurants and actually try to be 99% sure the animals were treated well? Maybe that's not possible if you are living in a big city in America, but living in the countryside in Germany it is, indeed, possible. Especially with honey: I always buy honey from an old lady who keeps the bees at her home, where you also buy the honey. So you ACTUALLY see how the bees are kept. Now tell me again how "Ethical Omnivores" are worse than vegans who don't 100%ly control that stuff like makeup and Computers are completely Vegan. It's exactly the same, you can never be completely sure, but you can try. (We can argue about how killing animals can't be ethical, that's something I'm not entirely sure about.)
In one evening, I've gone from mildly disliking to full on hating Michael Pollan. I've gone from "here's this old guy who thought he was right about grassfed a decade ago, hrrumph his book is outdated I wish people would stop reading it" to ..."this guy blatantly calls veganism in public spaces rude, tries to make Peter Singer look wrong with 'mah ancestors' and 'lions tho' types of arguments, and essentially embodies the kind of upper middle class asshole foodie who romanticizes hunting who I hate irl." NOW though, the worst part, is that he's convinced so many people that grassfed is sustainable, when it's been repeatedly proven wrong in the past few years.
with your meal. according to your thing vegetarians are also wrong. because bread and eggs.
and yeah I'm an onmivore. but yeah we only buy "better life" meat. it's a star system. and it's protected. I regularly eat organic, as long as we don't have to travel a lot to get it. (seriously some moms in my school drive over an hour to get biological vegetables for 3 days. ) because driving so much is also bad for the environment.
I don't have like really a moral system behind it with rules. we just do it that way. and eggs, battery chickens are illegal here since a couple of years. we don't have the biology feed free ranch chickens eggs. but like the they also have enough space
inside the barn.
if we don't have enough eggs from our own 2 chickens of course. and no we don't have them just for eggs. they help with the garden. and are also just pets.
and milk, don't really drink that tbh. or eat yogurt. I don't like the slimey feeling. and the taste of milk.
we don't eat meat every day. we eat like vegetarian for 2/3 times a week.
and meat portions aren't large. maybe if we make it 50 grams per person. which is enough.
you have "omnivores" who aren't like. "THIS IS MY BELIEVE. THIS IS RIGHT!!!"
because seriously. people who are constantly telling other about their ethics/lifestyle/religion/opinion and judging others are (usually, since you are also part of this group. and now you dont sound like a complete idiot) the less intelligent ones.
but always the extreme ones. because you have people who are like "I don't care! you do you. just don't bother me with it."
and if you think about it. and this may sound horrible to everyone. eating a calves is MORE ethical than a cow. why? it has a shorter life. so in horrible situation cases less suffering. and it has eaten less food. and drank less drinking water.
yeah sorry. I'm logical. I don't hate baby animals tho! don't hate. I've probably seen and done more with (baby) animals than you have done. and I'm still in high school
Check out the way Joel Salatin farms. He is who I buy all my meat from. BIG difference in his style vs. factory farming. He mimics the animals natural living patterns and is all about integrity farming. Much higher nutritionally dense product as well! Also would like to add, I hate factory farming just as much as you do!
Ah Ha, I didn't know about any official definition of Ethical Omnivorism when I named my channel. I'm all about plant based whole foods and not killing anything that's not threatening your life. Well, perhaps I'll convert some of them. LOL
Mic I love all your videos and I think you're amazing, but I have to disagree STRONGLY with this one. Ethical omnivores have their hearts in the right place and they at least are taking small steps towards ending animal suffering. Shaming them for not doing enough isn't going to help anything, really. Also in this video you make the argument that people who call themselves ethical omnivores aren't going to live up to their own standards (having cookies at grandma's house for example); this isn't an argument against ethical omnivorism, it's an argument against doing it wrong!
Don't let perfect become the enemy of good.
As with any idea sold to the masses, it gets good and screwed up. Even Veganism sold to the masses usually results in excessive production of processed food and bad health outcomes (not as bad but as SAD but still). My omnivore boyfriend and I (I'm about 98% plant-based at the moment) Are moving to farm country in a few months, and the conversation has come up with going to local farms and sourcing meat, and perhaps getting backyard chickens etc... ( I saw that video) But in order to stick within my morals of not torturing animal (I'm not wholesale against exploitation, I'm of the opinion that is unavoidable if we want to eat, wear clothes, etc... ) Though I still plan on keeping our use very low, like the one gentleman on the TED talk said if we all went Vegan half the time it would be like half of us going Vegan all the time and that still reduces environmental stress by half. The idea though is that when we were out and about (not that we really go out much anyway) that we would present as Vegan's and therefore not be left with worrying about the sourcing of animal product by other people who would probably just lie anyway.
I cycle through phases of veganism and nonveganism. When I travel it is much harder for me to be vegan because communicating dietary restrictions in another language is difficult, especially when dairy/meat eating is ingrained in the culture. So, when I'm out, I'll eat meat or not whine about the fact that they forgot to hold the cheese, and at home I never buy, cook or consume meat or animal products. Like, actually never. It's also worth mentioning I have celiac disease, I'm allergic to corn and I am anemic. Thus, 99% of the nice meat subs that vegans can get away with buying doesn't work for me, and often I can't even eat the vegan go-to at restaurants (french fries) because of cross-contamination and corn oil being a popular cooking oil.
When I'm in NYC it's much trendier and easier to be vegan, not to mention I have access to a full kitchen rather than a meek 1/3 kitchen at my housing when I travel for work. I hope to be full vegan by the time I'm 25, but with my health complications and allergies I already feel like the most annoying person at restaurants. But I do think it's good to encourage people to decrease their meat consumption from daily to weekly, and to be ethical if they must eat meat. For example, a 7 year vegan that I knew went off of it because her doc told her she was killing herself bc of how anemic she was, but she was eating shitty processed tofu patties every night for dinner, not real food. She should've just maybe had an "ethical" steak once a month after her period and incorporated more veggies and not been cheap about it... the doc shouldn't have encouraged her to abandon her lifestyle completely. So crazy that happened.
I understand the sentiments. However, most of these scientific papers that he referenced have a bias that shouldn't be ignored. That's racial bias. Different races have different nutrition needs and most of these studies are conducted on Europeans and occasionally Asians. Moreover, the absorption of heme based iron is significantly higher than 15% it actually ranges from 35%-57% (NCBI Study on Hematology). Particularly blacks with Sickle cell trait or anemia need even more iron. Let's face it there are legitimate people who actually need to consume meat. I get that your intent is to reduce animal cruelty, however spreading propaganda to fuel your beliefs isn't going to help it. I do agree with you statement about there being no such thing as ethical omnivoreism. Especially because more than half of our agricultural foods isn't made for humans but live stock. So alot of the natural habitats that are destroyed get turned into farm land in order to feed both humans and livestock. But with this in mind if everyone or about 30% more of the world's population were to gradually become vegan more habitats would be destoryed. Why? While plants are much more nutrient dense, the amount of calories per ounce isn't compareable to meats. Therefore we will need to consume a larger amount of fruits and veggies. Therefore increasing the demand for veggies. This translates an even higher need to destroy more habitats. So in both scenarios animals will suffer. That's just how it is (unless we suddenly have a mass decrease in population or at least 17% of the world became unable to reproduce. I personally choose to eat meat. I've tried the vegan recipes but many of them I simply don't like, or alot of them have a high nitrate content in order to get things to have the meat texture (which by the way is very unhealthy), which is considered a reactive oxidation species (ROS). I try your buy locally and the most ethical, but I know that this system is flawed and imperfect. So all in all, my point is to say that whether you're a carnivore, omnivore, or total vegan are we really being ethical in the grand scheme of things and not just in the short term sense.
This vid was on point, great work. I detest Michael Pollan. I read his book 'The Omnivore's Dilemma' and his level of cognitive dissonance was so painful, I find it hard to believe he can take his claims of 'sustainability' seriously.
My personal journey is generally trying to reduce things that are bad for my health and for the planet. omnivore --> ethical omnivore --> vegetarian --> vegan --> working on oil free vegan now. I do think that ethical omnivorism is heading in the right direction, it just falls short of the ideal. As long as people are constantly striving to reduce animal products in their diet, that's always going in the right direction for me.
Even as a vegan, I see very little wrong with ethical dairy farms or ethical eggs. The place I got all my cheese as a vegetarian was from a goat farmer that rescued abused, old, or unwanted goats. She didn't slaughter or sell off the kids, they were all pasture raised, and very well loved. She even used to bring some baby goats to the market to educate people on what "big dairy" does with their baby animals.
Personally, I stopped eating dairy and eggs because the human body does better on a plant based diet than on a diet with animal products, but that doesn't make all non-vegans unethical. It's just sub-optimal. Reduction and more humane sourcing is 100x better than things continuing the way they are. I'm a huge proponent of the "one step at a time" method to veganism.
Right now, my diet is basically the following:
-A fair amount of cashews, salted, roasted
-Some peanuts, salted, roasted
-Some sunflower seeds, salted, roasted
-A little bit of almonds, salted, roasted
-A bit of pistachios
-A bit of broccoli, organic
-A fair amount of green beans, organic
-A bit of romaine lettuce, endive, green lettuce, iceberg lettuce, etc. Organic
-Some celery, organic
-Some cucumber, organic, also a bit of dill pickle
-A bit of spinach and swiss chard, organic
-A bit of yellow onion, sauteed or roasted
-A bit of shallot, sauteed or roasted
-A bit of asparagus, some of it organic
-A bit of cilantro, organic
-A bit of sauerkraut
-A bit of kalamata olives
-A bit of avocado or guacamole
-A bit of kale or collard greens, organic
-A bit of carrot
-A bit of tomato
-A bit of cauliflower
-A bit of peas
-A bit of red bell pepper
-Some dried herbs like basil, thyme, marjoram, sage, rosemary, etc.
-Some spices and seeds like fennel seed, turmeric, cinnamon, ginger, paprika, cumin, yellow curry powder, fenugreek, coriander, etc.
-Some grass fed beef
-A bit of pork, higher quality
-A bit of uncured bacon
-Some pasture raised eggs
-Some chicken, mostly organic and dark meat
-Some turkey, dark, organic, skin on
-A bit of salmon, wild caught
-A bit of other seafood, such as wild caught rockfish, cod, canned tuna, sushi/sashimi, etc.
-Frozen berries like raspberries, blueberries, blackberries, etc.: A bit to some, varies
-A bit of apple
-Very occasional grain, starchy veg and bean consumption- black beans, wheat, corn, rice, sweet potato, forbidden rice, pinto beans, etc.
-A bit of dark chocolate
-A bit of olive oil for cooking
-Garlic powder-quite a fair amount of that stuff
-Sea salt-some, not too much
-Dried seaweed: Some
-Vitamin D Supplements
I'm sure I'm forgetting a few other things, but thats about it right now.
I completely agree with you. And I wish I could come to the Chicago Vegan Food and Drink Fest, but Chicago's awfully far away from Berlin.
Isn't also grass feed beef or similar sustainable meat a luxury this days? Not everybody has an hectare of grass fields to raise their own animals, and probably never will. All that "tracking down" thing you say is true, you can't be sure about anything unless you can track the meat back to the living animal (his whole life and death), otherwise, you don't know if some sick fuck abused the animal at some point of his life or where it was sent to die (was it really unconscious when it died?).
And I'm more concernd about calcium than iron nowadays, but I'm not sure if the 1 g daily intake is overestimated or not.
One of the biggest problems I have with this video is the conflation of morals vs ethics. Ethics is generally considered to be a set of standards that delineate acceptable practices as defined by communities, usually of a certain profession, for example law. Morality usually implicates what is right, which often connotes religious, spiritual, and personal beliefs. One could definitely make the argument that omnivorism is unethical according to the established standards of a certain community, but to say that omnivorism is "wrong" in the moral sense inherently delves into another realm entirely and implies a kind of objective morality. That's fine and dandy, but most schemas of objective morality are usually centered around or situated within a religious framework.
What Mic. doesn't talk about are the lack of antibiotics used on organic dairy farms. Hear me out here- without antibiotics, many sick cows who would have otherwise survived end up dying painfully.
What about seafood like shrimp, crab, cuttlefish, eggs (borrowed from lacto ovo vegetarians), fish (not sharks, whales or dolphins).. It doesn't have to be mammalian life...? All of these qualify as meats too... doesn't juts have to mean chicken, pig, cow or turkey... but no dairy
You videos have a way too nice like/dislike ratio - there must be almost none non-vegans here.
I did not bother to listen in full because it was clear from the get go where you were going with this. You believe humans should not eat animal meat period. (I'm not sure if you believe it is ok if say the animal died of some other circumstance.) I will say this: You place yourself in a position of being able to judge what is moral for human beings. I realize we all do that to some degree and I will not go as far as to say that is wrong. We have the right to judge. I see that you place humans on a higher moral standard than all other creatures. I presume this is because you feel we are of higher intellect. I would venture to bet I could come up with some things that I believe humans should not do based on what I believe is moral. You would probably disagree. Maybe you would argue such and such is not really harmful. I could propose another viewpoint revealing how such and such is actually harmful in the short and or long term. You seem as though you are convinced that it is morally wrong for humans to consume meat (killed by humans) just because they have the opportunity to consume plant foods. If humans did not have access to plant food would it then be morally acceptable to kill and eat meat? You may say yes or you may say no. If you say yes then you are saying only under certain circumstances is it morally wrong. So it is not unequivocally wrong? But yet you seem to judge eating meat as morally wrong. You realize there is no painless way for an animal to die and an ethically killed animal will generally suffer less than an animal torn apart by another beast for food? I do not believe you are qualified to make a judgment for all humanity on the morality of choosing to eat meat. Do you realize the extent to which flesh is consumed for the cycle of life to continue? Microorganisms kill other microorganisms and bugs kill and eat bugs, fish eat living creatures, dead things fertilize the earth bringing forth new life. Killing and eating is the way of life. I am neither for or against veganism, but I do not believe it should be forced on humanity. Humans have the right to procreate just like other animals. Humans have the right to be living creatures in need of sustenance. Humans have the right to kill and eat just like other beings. Because we have higher intellect you want to take that basic right away by shaming anyone who eats an animal. I can impose my morality on you also by guilt, shame and reasoning if I want to. Should I? Is that morally right? Who should be the judge?
You should have to raise and slaughter and prepare your preferred food sources. Bet you many more people would be instantly vegan. I went fishing with people who refused to learn to gut and clean out a fish, but wanted dinner. This is my perspective of humans. They want, therefore, it’s justified. Sad times.
I have to say that i don't entirely understand why you point a finger on these ethical omnivores (haven't heard that before, but feel kind of appurtenant..) You say: "its simply just a way to make you feel better about doing the same thing.." and I think that's wrong, because if I do my best to avoid animal products, but if I get like once in a month, the chance to have some meat from my local farm i put my trust in, I'm not doing the same thing as eating it the hole time. Just my thought..
Greetings from Germany :)
Most people simply don't understand what ethical means. There are many forms of ethics. So is it possible to be an ethical omnivore? Of course it is:
"Moral nihilism (also known as ethical nihilism) is the meta-ethical view that nothing is intrinsically moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Moral nihilists consider morality to be constructed, a complex set of rules and recommendations that may give a psychological, social, or economical advantage to its adherents, but is otherwise without universal or even relative truth in any sense."
Remembers me of a german youtuber making a video about cooking "...and then we take the meat which was bought from a local farmer (seriously guys, make sure where the meat comes from)" and one second later "and then we make some bacon!" Yeah, the bacon surely wasn't bought in the super market as cheap as possible.
"Minimizing the amount of meat you consume" That... that would mean reducing it to zero... you know, like a vegan...
Can you do a video on why "but if we stop buying animal products people will lose their jobs" ISNT a valid arguement? My sister and dad always use that as if it'll work.
When I'm at a meat eaters home a refuse the meal they offer and they ask why... I start explaining only vapid reasons why I'm vegan: I lost so much weight, I have to get new clothes I saved money on food I just bought many new toys... and then I shove their dog away with my foot and watch their jaws drop... jk
I agree. the only way to be an ethical omnivore is to be sure of where your items come from. I could probably get behind something like an ethical vegetarian type thing, where you are basically vegan except for the instances in which you now where your food comes from directly. For instance, I don't have a problem with plant based eaters, who have their own or know a friend with chickens and eat the eggs. Just as long as the chickens don't show distress when the eggs are taken, and aren't killed once they stop producing eggs.
The only thing I genuinely have a problem with when it comes to the eating of animals is the unnecessary violence in the killing, everything else I'm 100% ok with, I'm not a ethical omnivore just FYI. If you do more than kill the animal, if you beat the animal or cause it to have a more painful death than necessary to successful kill then in my opinion that is wrong, and that's the only time I care about the animal. I believe in living like lions in the sense as we kill to eat not for our entertainment. And I know the vast majority of animal products to include unnecessary harm however I think just advocating for it is enough because the animals we eat aren't our species and only our species do I care deeply enough about to go to such measures as would require even a ethical omnivore to go through. The problem I have with animal products honestly is that they don't taste good, however it's the only food that can actually make me feel like I've eaten. And for this reason I will never become a vegetarian or a vegan, because I may like to eat on occasion, but most of the time I want to eat and be satisfied.
So do you know where your vegetables come from? Do you know if workers
were exploited, or worse, if they were working under the conditions of
slavery? Humans are animals too and a large part of agriculture is based
on human abuse.
While Mike has a point (ethical omnivores may not ALWAYS know where their animal food came from); there is hypocrisy - the same is easily said for most plant foods eaten by vegans, mainly: grains, legumes, and vegetables. Does Mike and other vegans understand that these foods are responsible for the clearing of forests and the draining and damning of rivers; they are the vast monocultures of industrial agriculture (including SPECIES BIOCIDE)? The solution here for both omnivores and vegans is to eat locally, or better yet, grow your own food.
So, Mike... "does local make it any more okay" to clear forests to grow monocrops of rice, beans, and soy? NO. So stop pretending that just because you are a vegan you are better than everyone else who isn't.
TL;DR - Industrial agriculture (animal and plant) is responsible for widespread biocide. The solution - eat local, whole foods.
Erroll Gibson Does the fact that both plant and animal agriculture contribute to an environmental harm justify killing and exploiting living things ON TOP of this? I don’t understand why you think that just because vegans aren’t perfect, that you should give up the rest of your morals and just fall back to eating animal products.
I definitely agree with you that it is better to strive to eat whole, local foods. I advocate for farmer’s markets, less-processed snacks, and home or community gardens. My first priority, though, is to make sure my whole, local food didn’t have eyes, a mother, or the ability to scream as their life is taken away from it.
TLDR; two wrongs don’t make a right. If you don’t want to contribute to deforestation, etc. don’t throw animal murder in on top of it!
We really need to start breeding animals that can consent to being eaten. Cows that can consent to being milked. We already have ricotta cheese made from human milk, the supply is just really low. But that would solve the consent problem.
It's a comically self-defeating position. If minimizing meat consumption is ethical then meat consumption is clearly unethical; otherwise, there'd be no reason to minimize it!
Considering that math proves it to be possible yes of course. This should not come off as an argument against veganism by any means. I just want to state that obviously it is possible. Say an omnovire eats very little animal products and the rest of his diet is grains and legumes with a little bit of veggies then the rest of his diet causes very little suffering. So in the end compared to say a high carb fruit eater he actually might cause less harm to animals overall (also the environment).
Granted such a diet is extremely unlikely, but it is of course possible (depending on the reference) mathematically speaking to be an ethical omnivore :)
Just share this vid with my friend. We had the same debate. He argued eating meat in excess must be moderated like many things in life. However his self center perspective blinds him from viewing the reality of eating meat becoming a collective trickle effect. I still love him he's my brother and we must have an inclusive approach to helping others wake up. 🖖
So a large part of this argument against the term ethical omnivore seems to be that Mic thinks it's not possible for an omnivore to eat ethically all the time, so how about vegans? Does every vegan demand to know the source of the soy in a meal they are eating? Not the ones I know. Ok, in a worst case scenario, imagine I'm out for a meal with a vegan friend and we both order a stir fry, mine is made with pasture for life certified beef, thats local, led a stress free life, been kept using holistic management husbandry so is carbon neutral and my vegan friend has a tofu stir fry but the tofu is made with GMO soy from brazil, grown on land that used to be rainforest and then flown in to europe. My meal is more ethcial.
When you pay taxes your money goes partly to the meat industry if you start taking a discussion this far there is no stopping. Your bank is probarbly investing in the meat industry , weapon industry, coal industry , slave industry (cacoa) and so on.