I do love that originally the symbiote just wanted to help Peter get more heroing done while also letting him sleep, and simply didn’t realize Peter wasn’t getting the rest he needed doing that.
@@travislyonsgary yea. Plus the symbiote didn't really have a way to communicate with Peter back then. So of course unfortunate misunderstandings happen between the two
The best versions of Venom I feel have this. Because Venom wants the be a hero, it thinks it’s doing right but it lacks the same moral core as Peter. It has no problems killing criminals, it sees no issue cutting off people that hurt Peter, the people who don’t treat him fairly deserve all the vitriol they can muster. Which is why it hates Peter so much after he rejects it because in Venom’s mind they did absolutely nothing to deserve this hate and disgust from Peter. Venom outside of trying to kill Peter is an alright guy, he kills, murders and eats people but Venom wants to be a hero and Spider-Man (in Venoms mind) is a two faced lying coward who got rid of the only person trying to help him.
To think all this sh*t with the symbiote happened because of this: Peter in Secret Wars: "Damn, my suit is in tatters. Let's see what this random alien item machine has..."
To be fair, everyone else had just got cool new threads from the machine Reed pointed them to, and when they told Spidey that they got their costumes from the machine in the room over there, they didn't mention that the other machine dispensed symbiotic goo...
The detail that I'm actually really sad that Red & Blue didn't mention is that he DOESN'T just go to a random machine - he just notices some of the other heroes coming out a room on the Mysterious Alien Compound they're all staying, and notices the tears in their costumes are all fixed. He asks what happened, and they casually point back to where they came from and are like "oh yeah we found this cool machine in that room which automatically fixes clothes! You should go try it out, bud." He then goes into the room, but the other heroes neglected to mention that there are multiple mysterious-looking machines in there, so he literally says out loud "let's try this thing! It looks like it wants to make me a costume." and that's how he gets the symbiote. Later on, of course, he learns that that was, in fact, the wrong machine, but decides to completely ignore the ominous subtext in favor of Awesome New Suit.
The Symbiote is always an amazing character moment for Peter. People make fun of the 90s animated series for doing it over the top, but nobody will ever forget, “I’LL CHASE YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.”
who makes fun of it? It's one of the best moments of the show, if not the best. Just seeing Peter full dark mode is so chilling. Great, very on-your-face reminder of "with great power comes great responsability".
The 90's show is the epitome of cheese, but that doesn't mean it's not great in its own way. One thing I'm legit impressed by is Peter's scream during MJ's "death". GIF and memes aside, he REALLY sells it. Also, shoutouts for basically being the first person to do the Spider-Verse concept which eventually lead to some great stories.
@@leithaziz2716wait is the 90s show by any chance the same one from that short video of peter screaming "NOOOOO" while some woman (i guess MJ) fades away? If it is then the caliber of that scream totally checks out lol
When I was younger, I thought the "You can't escape me, I'll chase you to the ends of the earth!" line was said by shocker, not Spider-man for some reason. 💀
@@thegungerbrospodcast7671Nah that’s divided-attention kid logic to a T. ‘Someone’s yelling Shocker over and over? Clearly he’s yelling his own name!’ 😂
The thing is, the Symbiote joy-riding around, being Spider-Man even when Peter is asleep and fighting crime as efficiently as possible is actually kind of endearing. Like, as alien as puppeteering someone's body around without their knowledge or consent would seem to a normal person, as an actual alien, it was doing what it thought the host would want. You know somewhere in Peter's head there were worries that his villains were becoming too much of a problem for him. So of course the symbiotic suit that bonded with him on a psychological level could sense those anxieties and would literally jump at the chance to do something about it and help its host get those good brain chemicals going again. Good intentions, horrible execution. Then he sheds the suit. Massive breakup, after the suit had done *everything* it could for him. He just cut it off in an extremely painful experience (high frequency sound waves, usually). Ofc it's gonna hold a grudge.
My understanding is that Peter left the symbiote with so much trauma. And he's kinda the toxic ex that makes it seem like the symbiote is evil. Meanwhile Venom is chilling with Flash and Brock 🤣
That ignores that the Venom symbiote takes things to a logical extreme. In most iterations it doesn't just fight crime for him while he's unconscious, it warps his mind and nearly makes him commit murder several times.
@@General_Weebus But again, that comes from the fact that the symbiote is AN ALIEN ORGANISM that was never exposed to human morality. It's just like how the Mi-Go (from Lovecraft) might look evil and sinister to humans, but that's only because their morality is so different than anything humans would know. The symbiote viewed Peter as another living being and it tried to accommodate his needs in the only way it knew how, while Peter just saw it as a convenient living weapon and it rightly backfired when Venom (and worse, CARNAGE) entered the picture.
The sudden like sucked back to Earth dread of a cocky villain when they realize a hero is actually possibly about to murder them is honestly my favorite thing that anti-kill hero stories can do.
"This guy could've killed me this whole time and he made the conscious choice not to, meaning I could fight him and occasionally win while fighting my hardest. And now he's making the opposite choice. I'm not fighting for my pride anymore, I'm fighting for my genuine _survival_ now, against a foe that has been kicking my ass-while holding back-for 50 years."
I love the idea of the Symbiote being Spider-Man's jilted lover. They both know they don't work together, but if Peter ever offered to take them back, they'd drop their current host in a heartbeat, but Peter never would because he knows their relationship was super toxic.
In fact, it has taken many years and kind of a bit of couple therapy with Eddie, but the symbiote is pretty much completely over Peter by now. Of course, now they have a ton of different baggage to unpack.
@@sinisternorimaki Even then the poor thing still screws up. Like trying to help Flash during the Agent Venom days with his morale and baggage... by pushing him off the wagon back into alcoholism.
@@davidbjacobs3598 yeah they just did. They also call each other "my love" on like A LOT of occasions. so yeah that's not subtext that's just text. they are just ✨Gay~✨ (well idk if its like gay men but given that venom is not in the binary on account of being literal goo from space It's still queer anyways)
Fun detail: The reason the Symbiote was about to kill Dock Ock in cold blood in Spectacular out of all the Sinister Six, is because just a moment before, Octavious had voiced an interest in Spider-Man's new suit upon seeing its regenerative abilities and wanted to, essentialy, peel it off Peter to dissect and analyze it.
Something really cool about the sinister six fight is you can actually see that he’s fighting without his spider sense. He is getting hit in the back frequently and blind shot with stuff he would never been hit normally. But the symbiote makes him SO DAMN DURABLE the hits he takes doesn’t even matter.
I always liked that detail, because its so easy to miss. We see Spidey getting hit when he logically shouldn't, but because they established what a threat the Sinister Six were, we're willing to accept it and go "whoa Spideys actually getting hit, this is intense!". Then the reveal comes and it all makes sense.
It's interesting that Red brought up the question of whether the real reason Spider-Man got the black suit was because the artists got tired of drawing all the little webs, because the reason the Hulk is green actually goes back to something similar. In the Hulk's first appearance, he was colored gray, but the cheap printers that were used to print the comics had a hard time keeping him a consistent shade, so they decided to make him green, which was easier for them to color.
Funny thing, it's also a similar reason why Super Saiyan is blond. Toriyama wanted to make it easier for his assistants to ink the manga, so he made Super Saiyan blond in order to circumvent shading Goku's hair.
@@Magni4cent_Pose And at one point he even turned SSJ into goku's default form to make shading even easier but later on changed his mind for some reason.
@@Emmariscobar Part of it is because its assumed when Goku mastered the Saiyan form he'd just keep it up admist combat (in DBZ that's pretty common). My guess is it became less necessary to keep him in that form alongside more doable over time (DBZ is wildly successful so there's be less of a need for shortcuts). Plus I imagine its to make the super saiyan form more unique rather than just a standard with the saiyan cast.
Iirc the black suit was originally sent as fan art by a reader (who was like 16 or something) and marvel liked it so much they bought it off him for 100 dollars
Peter did not get fired from the Connor's lab in the spectacular Spider-Man series because he was failing to be present, he was fired because he was taking pictures of the lizard, aka the mutated Dr. Connors, and then selling those pictures to the bugle for money. Mrs. Connor saw this as a massive breach of trust and fired him
@@Shadow1Yaz In all fairness, it is kind of sorta his job to photo Spiderman, did his best to ensure no one could know it was Curt, and had to leave so no one would know he was Spider-Man. Not only that, how would Peter be able to help *really*? The only way he could help was as Spider-Man. (Not saying he was right, just saying I understand)
@@jadedsilverlining9427 oh I understand too. I remember thinking “sir, you believe this boy to have below average physical prowess. The frick did you think he was going to do?” Also, yeah, photography is his job. From what I gathered, Connor was sore that Peter wasn’t there for moral, just for a pay-check. But again, this guy (you think) can barely run track, it’s kinda impressive he stayed around to take pics in the first place.
@@Shadow1YazIt should be noted that at the time it *wasn't* Peter's job to take photos of Spider-Man. Jameson had put out a bounty to anyone who could bring him decent pictures of Spidey and Peter had spent the last few episodes trying to get the hang of taking his selfies. So, from Martha Connors' point of view, Peter went away scared once Dr. Connors becomes the Lizard (to which Martha didn't hold against him) then the next day she sees that he *didn't* run away but instead used her husband's crisis to get a payday. That's pretty fucked up.
@@VicEntity Yep exactly. He essentially bailed on making the antidote (which, as Peter, he would've been useful for) to get a different job which pays. Completely justified firing. Obviously, as Spider-Man, he did help, but really taking photos was pretty messed up even knowing he's Spider-Man.
The brawl with Harry was really sad. Because in a lot of ways it was inevitable. They spent so much of their lives being deeply jealous of each other and the moment their inhibitions slipped; they went for it.
One of the big character contrasts I love with the Spider-Gwen comics is how her "Gwenom" phase ends with her using music to connect and build a relationship with her symbiote and ever since she's just casually been Technically A Venom but she's just chill and low-key about it. Fitting for the melancholy pop album Web-Slingers & Feelings vibe of Spider-Gwen's whole universe.
The symbiote represents the ultimate temptation, it’s not just an increase in her powers, it is the key to her getting her powers back, period. The whole build up is even more overtly an allegory for drug addiction than what the traditional black suit storyline has become, she has lost her powers and is reliant on the Kingpin's drug to get her powers back. The symbiote is introduced as an opportunity to get out, it will give her powers back permanently, but it is known that it will bring out her dark side. Interestingly she actually conquers it straight away. It’s only when Murdoch reveals her dad is in a coma that she loses it. If anything the outside influences have more impact on her than the symbiote.
@@intergalactic92Raimi's Spider-Man 3 also does this theme with the symbiote but even more literal as Peter removes it by ringing the church bells and purifying himself of sin
TLDR: I need to read those comics, if only for the Symbiote portrayal See this makes the most sense to me, the villain motivation of Symbiote pre-Venom is always really odd to me. That is to say it doesnt really have one outside of what is functionally make good person be bad person. In most aspects its actually treated like the modern interpritation of the Devil in Christianity. I like it much more when there is a proper motivation, even spite is a better motivation than corruption for corruption's sake. The best understanding I have for the Symbiote is that it should want its host to grow and get stronger because it is tied to them and the growth/survival is shared. The exploration of the Symbiote going "Hey man, these are some really unhealthy habbits for you as a living being," would be an interesting catalyst for Spiderman character growth.
@@thehob3836 the thing with spider-man is that the symbiote binds to his suit, it doesn't bind to him physically, unlike Eddie Brock who is always butt ass naked up in there. The symbiote was always more attached to the concept of being Spider-Man than it was to Peter himself.
Gwen rly just went "Imma make friends with the horrors" and then just actually did it. Absolute power move. literally made friends with the horrors by just being self aware. Iconic~
Honestly I think my favorite thing about the PS5 version of the black suit is that the first thing Peter notices about the suit is that he finally feels good. The bedrock of addiction is being in a vulnerable mental state to begin with.
49:05 Reds point about the landlord getting yelled at and turning to his niece and saying "he is good boy something must be wrong" also stuck out with me. Like it would have almost been typical for him to lash out someway or evict peter and later peter apologizes but instead it's a wholesome moment from this unassuming character and i like that
You mentioned the thing about the landlord, and honestly, its one of my favorite things about Sam Raimi Spiderman. That world is so mean and cynical on the surface, really driving home the thanklessness of being spiderman, but over and over again, it keeps giving you these tiny moments of deeper humanity in a way thats genuinely really touching and nuanced. Like his landlord is an ass but he sees Peter is hurting and gives him grace; J Jonah Jameson is also an ass most of the time, but then he lies to cover for Peter even when his life is on the line; the people of the city are generally pretty selfish and rude, but they try to step in when villains are getting the upper hand, and there's those people on the train that hide his identity for him. It's honestly really, really nice and i miss that vibe in newer superhero stuff.
People dont want to do the Jesus Christ allegory anymore but unfortunately Jesus Christ was one of the first Super Heroes who acted exclusively for good even when it was hard to do or he was beaten down and punished for it.
I also miss this. The Raimi movies did such an amazing job with characterizing New York and making it feel like a city of people instead of a city of props. Other superhero movies of that era were okay-ish with this, but really none came close to the Raimi movies, and none since have ever recaptured it.
@@davidbjacobs3598I’d also say that 9/11 really helped to pull this imagery out since 1 was heavily influenced by it (I’d really love to see the pre-9/11 cut)
Without a doubt, the symbiote's #1 fan was Black Cat for a mile. For those who don't know, in the 80's comics, Felicia found the symbiote suit so s*xy that she gave to Peter a cloth version of the outfit, which he (after losing the original red-blue suit in an avalanche) would wear for years until the arrival of Venom.
If u could see that whole ass bakery in what looks like skin tight leather you’d understand her situation even if he’s a minor (well not in the comics at the time)
EDIT: Okay, I'm getting a whole lot of comments of people kinda missing what I'm selling. I know there are other characters who've bonded to symbiotes that are heroes or crimefighters, I know there are other series that fit the scenario I described. I am not asking for that, I am specifically asking for this scenario to happen to *Peter Parker specifically* and nobody else. I kind of want to see a version of the story where Peter Parker recognizes that the symbiote just hasn't developed any morals yet. So in recognizing it as a sentient being and a potentially useful tool/ally for crime fighting, he tries to help nurture it instead of rejecting it.
I thought about Spiderman story (not Peter Parker) where the symbiote originally bonded with an Army Dog and had to learn how to help people, its dog host, and the people around it. After that dog passes away, the symbiote is looking for a new partner and finds our protagonist, a former San Fransisco firefighter. Was thinking it would be cool to base more spidery powers after the tarantula and wonder how two intelligent beings working together with distinct personalities work as one persona as Spider-Man.
That’s (kind of) what happens in Spider’s Shadow, but (spoilers ahead) long story short, even though Spider-Man keeps it, it remains morally stunted, and at the end it still delves into that “if I can’t have you, no one can” mentality when Spider-Man eventually rejects it.
@@Jgt612 Something like that, except let Peter have a nice, AU world where he keeps the Symbiote and helps nurture it into the hero it will eventually become with him. Like yeah, there are scenarios where this works out, but they either only do so for a temporary period before Peter Parker's status as a writer's punching bag kicks in and it all falls apart anyways or someone else entirely is the one becoming a proper hero long-term with the Venom symbiote. No, I specifically want a story where Peter makes it work and it doesn't fall apart in some way.
I love how the symbiote isn't inherently bad, it's just that Peter's emotional baggage was so big that he couldn't control it. Like every venom symbiote user after Peter managed to make peace with it and turn it into a force of good (Flash and Brock). However, Peter is so convinced that it's the Symbiote that's evil that it is always on sight for him. I found that amazing, it's a nice character flaw of Peter that he himself doesn't see. He refuses to acknowledge that maybe it was him who made the symbiote like that, not the other way around. Don't get me wrong, Peter is an amazing hero, but it's true that most of the time he works out of guilt and disregards the concerns of those around him. His funny persona is a way to mask that sometimes, he really doesn't want to do the superhero thing, but from his perspective “someone has to do it”, it's more out of obligation than goodwill. Venom represents all the things Peter has suppressed. His frustration at life for not being able to be a normal person, the frustration of enemies that keep going at him, the stress of managing a secret identity and him being fed up that those around him judge him for his failures without knowing the whole story (the Spider-Man thing eating at his whole life). Peter is bad at managing his life to a ridiculous degree, because he's always so desperately looking for people to save (out of guilt) that he never dedicates time to himself. Heck, Otto did a better work managing Peter's life. He got a degree, built a company, and made the whole Spider-Man thing more efficient, all in a matter of months and just by not wasting himself away patrolling.
Point of contention: Superior Spider-man is not a demonstration that Peter Parker is the cause of Peter Parker's problems. It's a demonstration that Peter Parker is maintaining a very tenuous balance. All the things Otto does as Superior Spider-Man ultimately unravel, and he has to ask Peter Parker to fix them. "Not wasting himself away patrolling" creates a surveillance police state with spider-man as the semi-benevolent dictator. Otto kills an enemy combatant. The business he founds as Peter Parker winds up spinning out of control and being a disaster. The only long term lasting impact from this time is the diploma. Further, I think there's a strong way to interpret that based on all the other symbiotes, Venom's time with Parker changes that particular symbiote's moral / ethical compass as none of the rest of them even rise to the level of begrudging anti-hero instead preferring to do just so very much murder.
@@traviswrigg5158 I mean Otto's only problem was the Green Goblin, he had a great idea of implementing security on all the city, which worked until an evil genius took advantage of it. Parker Industries only failed because when Peter came back he neglected the company (as he does with everything in his life), and Otto preferred watching it burn to the ground than let Peter keep it (which wasn't cool of Peter, like not even his company). At the end, it's not that Peter could do a better job than Otto. But Otto realized Peter had more heart than him and that's what the city truly needed. Cause at their best, Otto is better and more efficient, but at their worst, Peter is still a hero while Otto would prioritize his own well-being. Cause if you see it logically, having a whole system to protect the city rather than one man seems like it would prevent a lot more of Uncle Ben's. (The whole "the spider bots were hacked" felt kinda cheap).
@@traviswrigg5158 On the subject of symbiotes. It's hard to tell, I would disagree on Peter being the one that gave Venom a moral compass. The reasons we haven't seen other Symbiotes turn to good is because: A) They had a crazy host or were birthed by Carnage, who has a crazy host. B) Were quite literally just born out of experiments, which leads to immature symbiotes that aren't fully developed. C) Were influenced by Knull. If anything it was Flash and Brock that healed Venom from all the damage Peter gave him. Because they actually look at their issues and address them rather than avoid or denying them like Peter.
I really disagree with the idea that Peter is only Spider-Man out of obligation. Sure that's some part of it cause he feels guilty about Uncle Ben and all but if that was literally his only motivation he would be a really shallow character. Peter at his core absolutely has a sense of justice and a good heart he keeps going on as Spider-Man because he knows its the right thing to do and he wants to help people. He laments his position sometimes because it does make his life harder but that doesn't mean he completely disdains being Spider-Man.
@@koifish835 The thing is, Peter IS a good guy, he just doesn't really like being Spider-Man all that much. The way he goes on being a hero is self-destructive, he'll always try to save as many people as his body allows. This is why he doesn't have a work/life balance while other heroes do. The whole “great power, great responsibility” can be seen as a curse sometimes, which is why Peter has considered giving up his powers more than once. He has famously given up on being Spider-Man and only came back when he saw the effects of him “not fulfilling his responsibility”. On the Ultimate universe, he pretty much retired, since Miles could fulfill his role and for once felt comfortable not being Spider-Man. Again, he is a good person and wants to help people, just not as Spider-Man, but he realizes that being Spider-Man is the best way he can help people. The Universe where Peter is the happiest is the one where he isn't Spider-Man and is helping people with his science. Because the way he goes on being Spider-Man doesn't just interfere with his life, being Spider-Man is his whole life. He wishes he could just settle down, be with family, be with friends, have a stable relationship, not starve and progress in his career, but he values helping people more than his own well-being. Which, at the end of the day, is the reason we love Spider-Man. There isn't much to being a hero if you aren't sacrificing something, and for Peter, he pretty much gives everything.
What's scary is that not only does the suit put thoughts into Peter's head but it also blocks out information to protect itself. That's why Peter didn't notice its weaknesses to sound at first.
I think one of my favorite aspects of Spidey and Venom that's only lightly alluded to here is how, in many adaptations, the relationship between them is portrayed as a toxic, abusive one. The symbiote brings the absolute worst parts of Peter out of himself, encouraging and enabling his awful behavior, while refusing to let Peter escape the situation. When Peter is finally able to fight and claw his way to freedom from the symbiote's control, it becomes *obsessed* with Spidey, making it its mission to absolutely ruin Peter's life for rejecting it, until Peter gives in and takes it back. That's something that was kinda ignored in the video: Venom doesn't take the form and powers of Spider-Man because that is what it knows, but because it is so single-mindedly obsessed with Spider-Man and regaining control over him. It's also mirrored a bit in how, while using Eddie Brock as a tool to get back at Parker, Brock becomes obsessed with the symbiote in turn, his sole focus on regaining it when it leaves or is taken from him. Obviously toxic and abusive relationships are awful (which I've experienced myself) but the way it's handled between Spidey and Venom really nails down how fucked up their relationship is, even if you don't consciously interpret their relationship that way.
When you look at it that way it's almost like an allegory to the power of addiction to drugs/alcohol. The symbiote gives him the power to overcome his issues but makes him a worse person because of it. It makes everything feel so much easier but also brings out the worst in him and makes him feel exhausted afterwards/when he isn't using it. It takes a near miss of Peter almost breaking his most important moral code to fight back and even then it chases him and wants him to kill him or for him to take it back which would likely lead to him committing even worse atrocities
@@taylorsackett2556 There's definitely some portrayals that try to lean into that, particularly if they show Peter feeling euphoric from the sheer power of the symbiote
The symbiote is so obsessed with him, it’s damn near Freudian. Like it’s a classic case of displacement (it pushes the self-doubt and heartbreak it feels onto Spider-Man and Eddie) and projection (it calls Spider-Man a monster for betraying its trust even though it has done that to him).
I still like Spider-Man 3's use of the Venom Symbiote all these years later. The symbiote is very much a nod to addiction. It consumes who you are, takes the parts of yourself you may ashamed of and makes it worse. As a former addict and whose brother and uncle were addicts, it really speaks to me. Aunt May did put it well that it turns you into something ugly, though not irredeemable, as we see with Peter.
and it is very impressive Reimi was able to execute that, knowing he never planned to add Venom in the movie and only did so due to corporate meddling to bring the hype. Back then he didn't find Venom interesting due to the comic issues back then portraying him as one dimensionally boring, and yet when forced to have him in the movie, he still make good use of him
Wether it be he’s just tired in the comics or gets a high from it or get angry in everything else, there was and is a perfect allegory for drug abuse and addiction and Sam took it. Just that I wish it was in a better movie even if I like SM3. Hopefully they’ll try it again some time
Honestly, Spectacular Spidermen, especially in the scene where he gets rid of it reminds me of an abusive relationship “Oh, your whole life was awful and terrible before you met me. I'm the only thing that gives you meaning, you’re nothing without me,” you know, that type of vibe
When referencing addiction, many people compare the symbiote to the drug. However, if we flip the perspective, Spider-Man’s body is the drug for the symbiote. It has a rudimentary sense of emotion; all it knows is that it feels good with it’s with him. The symbiote wants to remain with him no matter what, even if it hurts him.
If it wasn't for Symbiote Spider Saga we wouldn't get one of the best lines in super hero cartoons. "SHOCKER! YOU CAN'T ESCAPE ME! I'LL CHASE YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH!"
This probably isn't quite what you're asking for (because of the dark tone), but there is a miniseries called "Spider's Shadow", which asks the question "What if Spider-Man kept the Symbiote?"
Venom very often ends up as an Anti-Hero more than a villain. I don't find it unreasonable that a version of spiderman could somewhat tame Venom and keep him as a sort of ally/power boost as he needs it.
I introduced my wife to all of the Spider-Man films in preparation for No Way Home. Raim was her favorite version, 3 was unironically her favorite film. She enjoyed that the Raimi films were the campiest and "least embarrassed about being a superhero movie", and so because of that, she thought the silliest one in the trilogy was the strongest. Embracing the camp was just one step away from embracing the edge, apparently.
I completely agree that a lot of superhero movies, in the MCU in particular, almost feels embarassed of what it is. It uses self aware humor to deflect scrutiny. That's why the MCU movies that played it more straight and wasn't afraid of sincerity (and least tried to mimick Joss Whedon) are almost all the MCU movies that will stand the test of time on their own individual merits.
I love the idea of a Spider-Man adaptation having the Symbiote show up in the immediate aftermath of the death of Gwen Stacey. So he’s carrying around this uncomfortable, draining thing that affects his behaviour, making him angrier, more impulsive and more self-destructive, giving him a bleaker outlook and making him push away the people who care about him/are concerned about him… essentially, having the symbiote act as a metaphor for his grief.
@@noahmeyer9756yeah I like the implication Andrews spider-man went as far as a venom influenced spider-man without a symbiote influencing him. But if they did do a 3rd movie it would have been interesting to discuss the dangerous coping mechanisms people go towards when dealing with grief. Andrew leaning on venom because it makes him not care and let's him "focus on the important things" aka fighting crime. Alcoholism is a common pit fall because it helps some people feel numb. Symbiote post Gwen Stacy's death is a great metaphor for that. It would have been cool to see with any spider-man version.
I feel like the story often works best when it's used as a metaphor for depression or addiction. The original comics didn't do this, obviously, because it wasn't really planned (although Web of Spider-Man #1 can maybe work as a depressive episode). Spider-Man 3 obviously uses the resurfacing of Uncle Ben's killer as a catalyst for Peter to go dark. TAS and Spectacular don't have such specific reasons -- although Spectacular does use Aunt May's hospitalization, and the money problems that come with it, to push Peter into the darkest part of his arc -- but they both benefit from coming toward the end of their first seasons, making it just feel like a natural build-up from all the shit that Peter deals with on a regular basis. Without getting into any deep spoilers, this is also something I feel is a little bit missing from the new game (which is regardless excellent). They do a great job characterizing him with the suit, but there isn't really a clear reason for him to "turn" cruel if the symbiote were not a part of the situation. Heck, his life is kinda the best it's ever been. Granted, depression/addiction aren't always tied to clear reasons, especially addiction and I think the game plays a little more strongly into that aspect of the story. It's not a major criticism, just something I felt could've been leaned into a bit more.
@@davidbjacobs3598 yeah we played the new one too. And no spoilers! But we were joking in the beginning about this Peter not having a reason to need symbiote at first. The whole point is to give peter the extra power boost to beat villains he can't beat on his own. But this peter isn't alone. He has miles now and so has that back up for stronger villains. I enjoyed what they did with symbiote peter. But it did feel like they rushed over him deciding to keep it and reasons for why he might feel like he needs it. Like it is heightening his anxiety about losing aunt may in the previous game, but none of the external threats felt like something Peter and Miles couldn't have beaten together.
Yes those 2 fit together very well. But I do think secret wars fits really well inbetween too Imagine Peter loses his girlfriend, and then vanishes for a month, than comes back acting all weird and violent, always wearing black and pushing away his loved ones. Going into a space war would really prevent him from processing his grief.
I did think it was weird that “cop dies” is now of a through line than “loved one dies” Like Miguel doesn’t have that. Most spider men don’t have that moment
@@creed8712my headcanon is that Miguel pulled that one out of his ass. Most Spidermen loose either a loved one or a cop, but Miguel needed it to be one or the other, so he just picked one
My favorite explanation for Spider-man's loss of powers in the second movie is that it's a result of PTSD. The self-care through the middle of the movie helps him recover and the danger to someone close to him is the impetus for him to finally move past the trauma of the first movie.
Honestly, I think MJ being the catalyst works. Like, it’s not the heroic ideal to be more motivated to act when someone you personally care for is in danger, but it’s human. Plus, it sells the point that things are not better without Spider-Man since ultimately those he cares about aren’t better off if he’s less able to act.
Well a support network is important for post traumatic growth and having someone you can be vulnerable around helps though I do think the whole community being his support network is a kind of theme as well.
Tbh; yeah. Ptsd turns you into a powerless, scared, sad (and possibly child-like) version of yourself. It’s why some people with it get defensively vicious when surprised. Thought one and only one “keep myself safe!” Second thought after “aw sh!t, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it” essentially, they turn into a feral animal (which is a baby who can take care of itself)
I haven't watched the second Venom movie, but one thing I really like about the first one (for all it's flaws) is how it really gives the symbiote characterization beyond its typical thirst for revenge and obsession with Spider-Man - one might even say it humanizes the symbiote, kind of. In particular, I will never EVER be able to get over Tom Hardy's modulated voice going "EDDIE - IN MY WORLD, I AM ALSO KIND OF A LOSER. LIKE YOU." This changed my perspective on Venom forever and I cannot go back.
I always tear up at Peter's family and friends standing behind him when he faces the symbiote in his mind, that and Uncle Ben always there to be his moral compass.
Hero's with a living parallel or flaw pretty much always end up more interesting for it. The Symbiote tests Peter in an almost infinite amounts of ways, depending on what the writer wants. Similarly, how the hero overcomes it says a lot about them. If you are Peter, you overcome this flaw through determination and Heroism. If you a like Po, you overcome your flaws through improving and learning about yourself. However, if you are someone like Yuji Itadori, you overcome your flaw by turning the flaw on itself.
I do feel a understood part of the Symbiote is frankly that it being a Villain is Peter's own failure. It turning to Villainy is very much similar to Frankensteins monster. It comes to the world without a presumption about what reality is and copies his actions. When he realizes he is alive he cast it out without ever trying to teach it to be better resulting in a really hateful dynamic in a lot of the stories iterations. But it's a thing that's so unavoidable that it's a ignored tragedy.
@@travislyonsgary Yeah, I've always felt a little bad for the symbiote as I always felt like it could have been taught better. It has little to no negative intentions when it bonds with Peter. But like you said, it's unavoidable, to the point where Across The Spiderverse lists it as a canon event. I'm no hard core comic book reader but I'd like to read a version of the spiderman/symbiote story where Spiderman overcomes the negativity/aggression from the symbiote, but instead of casting it off, teaches the symbiote to be better and they both become better from the experience.
Wow I’m so jealous of Blue lol. Having parents who support your interests sounds like a blessing. I hope he cherishes them. My mom would have made me feel embarrassed for wanting to wear a costume all the time like that 😅
I do think it's significant that the "joyride" was the symbiote trying to help Peter do his usual hero stuff while he was sleeping. It was trying to help its host without context initially, and was not evil until Eddie corrupted it tbh. I actually hate that the responsibility motif and the foilwork of it between the symbiote, Peter, and Eddie got borked in favor of the much less original evil alien corruption take that's taken over.
Venom, as a symbiote, tends to mirror its host in its original form. As Spiderman, it wants to do good heroics. As Eddie, it wants to be meaner(?) I really like Ultimate Spiderman, the cartoon, and I think that did Venom pretty good as well, for the most part. Mild Spoilers for a show most people apparently don't like; The original venom is just a goop that wants to return to its "host" (Spiderman) because it was made by Norman Osborn alongside Doc Ock, but Spiderman doesn't want it and the venom just... Wants to fight? This part is the only part where the symbiote isn't mirroring its user. Who knows, maybe Peter just felt up for a fist fight. Then it gets Harry Osborn and as a cloak for Harry, the symbiote starts out wanting to be better than Spiderman because he has a lot of issues with Spiderman (his bff Peter Parker is ofc Spiderman, so that's a bit oof). Then he gets fully taken over and Harry's most suppressed feelings come out and he goes after his father for ignoring him and ever paying proper attention to him. He gets saved eventually and Venom leaves him be. Then it attaches to Flash Thompson. With Flash, Venom finds a companion that fully accepts it. Flash wants to be a hero LIKE Spiderman, so Venom becomes a suit and through working with Flash, they form a true symbiosis. Venom won't leave Flash, so Flash becomes Agent Venom and they both get to keep going as a collected hero. There is also the Carnage episode, which I think is really fun, but that's a modified venom, so it doesn't work the same way. Sorry for the long ramble, I just really enjoy this version of Venom, and Spiderman as a whole :)
@@JDM-is-my-nameHonestly, while I never watched the full series for various reasons, Flash bonded with Venom is my favorite thing from the series by far. He becomes a personification of the tough jock who got a quality role model and turns into what I like to describe as "a himbo with a heart of gold."
@@rayhatesu this is very true :) I on general enjoyed Flash's ack throughout the series :) Also, I choose to forget season 4 because I really didn't like it, lol, so I also didn't technically finish the series. My personal favourite thing was Peter and him being allowed to be a stupid kid who steps up, yet continues to be a stupid teen. I also love his relationships with everyone in his life. Season 1, episode 3 was very emotional to me :)
Yeah in general I feel sad about the Symbiote becoming a Villain as it actually is a really good showcase where Peter didn't actually live up to the power and responsibility motto to mitigate a Villain by just teaching them. Kind of reminds me of the times where the animated Flash didn't just punch a Villain but actually took time to set them down and talk things out. It's a theme spiderman actually has a lot in helping other normal people in New York, and. Venom is a bit sad since it's a case of him not living out that type of principle to other cases.
You enjoy it for the same reasons I can't. The original comics show the symbiote to be its own character, albeit alien and fumbling the bag in its confusion when thrown into circumstances it can't understand as a newcomer. It scolds Eddie for harassing MJ, and consistently is the confused angel on Eddie's shoulder until Eddie destroys its sense of morals by being its only support on planet Earth. Unfortunately, now it's been rendered an accessory to any human character development and a spiffy costume change. Ironically, it ended up being written to be more like what Eddie does to the Symbiote. In doing this it completely distorts the original contrast of what it means to have responsibility. Even Peter admits to having messed up the Symbiote situation but now all that has to be reeled back to make the Symbiote just boring and evil so woobie Peter can be innocent.
1:23:17 you missed a huge detail: the thing that finally makes Peter go "Oh shit, I need to get this off NOW" comes after an internal monologue where he remembers everything the symbiote influenced him to do, wonders why he did those things, and finally notices the use of "we." Then the Symbiote goes all, "but the suit has made life easier. We don't need anyone." Then Peter says, "Not even Aunt May? Those weren't my thoughts!" It's Aunt May that ultimately turned the tide in the first phase of the mental battle (before the cocoon).
The fact that Peter/Spiderman is constantly holding back, World of Cardboard style, is something that I think people both in and out of universe either don't realize or forget. The Symbiote arc is one of those moments where he lets loose and reminds people that that kindness and restraint is for Your benefit, not his. Superior Spiderman punching Scorpion's jaw clean off is another reminder, though in a different form. I haven't seen Spiderman 3, but that context of how dickish Raimi-Spidey got adds some interesting context to him stopping MCU-Spidey from killing the Goblin. It's not just that this was his first villain, but also he's been that far down in his grief and rage, and doesn't want this kid to go down that path. The fact that despite what a mess Spiderman 3 turned out to be, there's still a coherent storyline with the symbiote and Peter's downward spiral is proof that Raimi's skill as a director is too powerful, even nerfed like this.
I saw him saving Green Goblin as being him indirectly saving Harry, too. He even mentions having his best friend try to kill him and end up dying, and iirc he's the one with the formula to reverse Green Goblin's condition because he'd been ruminating for years on how he might have been able to do things differently.
I’m pretty surprised by the Spider-man 2 take because I saw the turn as Peter realizing the only way he could be Peter and Spidey was the support of others: Aunt May when she gives the speech about how Spidey inspired the neighbor child, the New Yorkers on the subway after the iconic moment, and yes Mary Jane. And at the end of the movie, MJ practically says this verbatim when she says it is wrong for either of them to not be their whole true selves out of duty and that he needs someone to take care of him too. Yes, it ends on with romantic support and partnership, but before that he had reconciled with his aunt (family support) as Peter and his fellow New Yorkers (community support) as Spidey.
@@pn2294I assume you mean "annoying"? And I totally agree, having Peter choose to work alone works well, especially because it's often spelled out to us that Peter and do a LOT of stuff on his own, but he needs friends, he need his family and support. I love when Peter works alone on occasion, because it works really well, but mostly Peter needs people because at the end of the day, he is just a person
It helps that during the train sequence his identity gets exposed. Peter's struggle is with juggling his life as Peter Parker and as Spider-man, as if they are two separate lives he switches back and forth between, but in that sequence it's made clear that both are the same. He tries to save people while looking like Peter, cause he doesn't save them out of obligation. It's who he is. And the New Yorkers in turn protect him, not because he's a superhero who saved them, but because they recognize him as one of their own. To diminish that entire last third to just "i have to save my girlfriend" is just actively ignoring the arc at that point.
Because it works much better in standalone, as pointed out in the diatribe. Something beyond the scope of the Diatribe is Marvel was in major trouble in the 80s (killed many neighborhood comic shops), and their new owner Ron Perelman took them public in the 90s. And started doing even more desperate things for revenue. Which is why Sony got Film rights, but to all of Marvel that would make Secret Wars work. So the Standalone telling from the 90s cartoon was preferable, and helps recement that telling in 2007. Now, if Disney doesn't drop the MCU, which may happen (Disney is in trouble below the surface), it is possible to do a Secret Wars origin for an MCU Symbiote Spider-Man.
Well, Secret Wars was always a toy advertisement so Mattel could sell action figures. Even the name was chosen because the items with "war" or "secret" in the names sold the best.
I LOVE possession type tropes like the Symbiote. More power, more confidence that makes all who hate you tremble Yet it comes at great costs like losing one's sanity and even pushing loved ones away because of your new power
The coldest moment of the Symbiote Arc in Spectacular Spider-Man is during the Central Park fight but it’s very subtle. Not only is Spider-Man mute for the whole fight as you said but the Symbiote has clearly learned how it’s host taunts enemies to make them make mistakes. In this case mid-fight just as the Symbiote is getting the upper hand it literally makes the “come on” hand gesture to Rhino which makes Rhino lose it and yell “ALRIGHT! THATS IT!!” So chilling seeing that the Symbiote has been learning..
This is also why I like Venom so much as a villain, because its not just Eddie’s hatred for Parker and Spider Man, it’s also the Symbiote’s anger at being cast away. The Black Suit arc leading to the creation of Venom is such a clean narrative throughline.
"Spider-Man 3 took a lot of flack - it was a bigger, more convoluted story with maybe one too many villains, and it went a bit dark for some. Still, for me, it's hard to put in words how delighted I was to watch Sam (Raimi), my boyhood buddy and filmmaking fraternal brother, direct one of the most successful movie franchises in history. There were superhero movies before Spider-Man, but Sam's series truly set that particular genre in motion for decades to come. I'm not a film historian, but I sense that Spider-Man also represents a turning of the tide, or taste, where even A-list movies are now B-movies conceptually. Believe me, if your hero is bitten by a radioactive spider and starts webslinging from buildings, that's not only a B-movie - that's a 1950s B-movie. I'm just happy that genre fare is no longer frowned upon in the world of entertainment, and that we're finally seeing how popular fantasy, horror and sci-fi stories really are." - Bruce Campbell, Hall to the Chin.
@@SolidLink64 - Bruce Campbell's memoirs, If Chins Could Kill and Hail to the Chin, are both must reads/listens - so many stories from his time in the B-movie trenches. Definitely seek them out if you wanna learn more about his time on the sets of these films and many others.
@SolidLink64 - also, outside of being just a great raconteur, Bruce has known Sam since high school and thus loves him like a brother but also will roast him to the ground without prejudice. One of my favourite Raimi Campbell stories is from the set of The Quick and The Dead. Bruce visited the set and got pressganged into being in the film... SR: (sees Bruce) Hey, you! Come here, you! I'm gonna put you in this film! BC: Aww, no, Sam, that's okay, I just wanna-- SR: Shutupshutup, come here with me! Bruce is dragged into costume hair and makeup... SR: (to costumer) Okay, gals, I want you make this guy look like a loser, see - like, he used to be rich but now he's a nobody! Make the clothes dirty and rotting a little. BC: Sam, I-- SR: Shaddup! (to makeup artist) Okay, gals, I want you to make this guy look like a bum, like he's got some horrible disease - give him a sore on his lip and everything! BC: Sam, I really just-- SR: Shaddup, it'll be great! See you out there. Later, onset with legendary character actor Pat Hingle, who had been pestering Sam to come up with a scene where he gets revenge on the pimp who sold his daughter... SR: (to Pat Hingle) Okay, Pat, this guy is gonna come up to your daughter and say, "Come on, girly girl, you and me are gonna do the devil's dance!" BC: I am? SR: (to Bruce) Quiet, mister! (to Pat) Now you see this happening, and before this terrible guy can do anything, you jump in there, and save your daughter! PH: So I should rough him up a little? SR: A little?! Hell, you'd be pissed! Don't worry about this guy - he's like a stuntman. You can do anything you want to him. I think you should choke him, actually. PH: Maybe throw an arm around his throat from behind. SR: Yeah, that'd be great! Then you throw him on the ground and kick him one last time in the ass! PH: Okay, sounds good, Sam! BC: Uh, Sam, can I ask a question? What direction am I coming from? Should I come from this way or--? SR: _OH, so Bruce has questions(!) Let's all stand around and answer all of Bruce's questions to his satisfaction(!)_ BC: Well-- SR: You'll stand where I tell you to stand, mister! You'll say what I tell you to say, you'll do what I tell you to do! BC: Sure, Sam, whatever. Several takes of Bruce getting roughed up later, Pat Hingle walks off satisfied and Sam whispers conspiratorially to Bruce... SR: Hey, thanks for your help, buddy. That scene will never see the light of day. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@s.p.d.magentaranger1822 - by his own admission, that whole public image of him is largely accidental, and generally speaking an affectation that runs counter to his own personality; he's the first to admit that he was terrible with women until well into his 20s.
The moment Red acknowledges, "your Reboot" is potentially the most beautiful moment in OSP history. Don't ask why. Don't ask me to defend this. I just know what warm and fuzzy is. It's this!
Considering how much she loves Reboot, I totally get it. It's a moment of clarity where she understands how much he loves something by comparing it to the feelings she has for something similar, and _gets it._
Love Spider-Man and love your talking about him. Shame what the authors are doing to him. Peter deserves a happy ending after everything they did to that man.
People always talk about how a hero needs to not be invincible, have flaws and struggle from time to time. It's just funny that Spider-Man's current comic run is an example of how that concept can look when taken to the extreme that it circles back to being a negative.
@@leithaziz2716issue is it undid a lot of popular developments. Peter I feel has a journey, and people wanted to see where it went. Not go back to the beginning.
The Symbiote era is probably the best "in over my head" story I knew growing up. The extremely intimate nature of it makes me think of the obvious abusive relationship parallel, but also things like getting sucked into a cult or suddenly realizing your circle of friends is a pack of violent assholes and you are also, even if only by association. It's that realization that you're in too deep to get out unscathed, wondering if you can extricate yourself at all. Truly terrifying
I've had a friendgroup full of jackasses before and now that you bring it up, I can absolutely see the connection. You see the problems, but you also see how difficult it is to get out. It took me a while to build up the courage to abandon them, and it does feel like Peter throwing away the suit but then coming right back to it up until he does for good
On the power level of Venom with Brock, there's an ongoing debate (that I believe has waffled within continuity some times) that this is still BECAUSE of Eddie. When the suit makes Peter more of a dick, it's not incidental, but that those are the specific feelings it feeds on. That pettiness, anger, spite, it RUNS on those psychic waves. And part of the bond with Eddie is that he is a MUCH BETTER FOOD SOURCE. He is so unwaveringly negative, even on his GOOD days, he's basically feeding the symbiote steroids. But part of what keeps the symbiote wanting to get back to Peter is that it actually liked being *kinda* good. Which is why I would love to see the symbiote get a turn on Kaine Parker, just for the total hilarity that would cause. Who, by the way, would represent the "Fifth Beatle" storyline of Spidey: All the Damn Clones.
I wonder how would that work given the many changes Venom has had after a while (like the whole "King in Black" thing, or Venom bonding with Eddie's son).
@@ianr.navahuber2195 There's been so much going on, it's hard to tell. Eddie seems in a much better place. The time spent with Flash probably mellowed the symbiote out some. And after King in Black, all bets are off. I think Venom is technically a god now. Might actually be kinda fun to have the symbiote divvy itself up so we get 3-4 copies all running around. All technically Venom, all working with different hosts and expressing different aspects of the character.
Eddie hates is like Symbiote having Steriods lmfao would explain how it increases its size but that it likes being good makes sense for venom arc being a Protecter and even when the Symbiote takes over Peter it still trys to do the right thing and whenever make its host life better that's why in spectacular it went to the stop then sinister six so next day Peter could rest really fits in well
It's interesting to think an agreement could be reached between the two. Similar to the stuff with gwen. I kinda want to see a version of Peter where this happens.
@lastmanstanding7155 Alternate universe where the other symbiotes are tipped off early. Symbiote Venom decides to gamble and just reveals itself to Peter and explains the problem after seeing Peter decide to help a villain who was genuinely put in a bad spot. Peter figures out a way to make "food" for Venom, works with Doc Strange or Iron Fist to sharpen his mind to be able to handle Venom if it gets antsy. They go on to become good friends. It becomes utterly infuriating to the villains because Venom picks up the wise cracking habit, so now they're getting roasted by TWO smartasses. Because of this, Carnage is never born. Instead, the spawn is something closer to Toxin. MJ bonds with this one. They proceed to fight crime as a married couple. When they have Mayday, they quickly realize she's just part symbiote.
Can I just take a moment to personally thank Blue for his videos on the Mycenaeans and the Minoans? I just took my World Civ I midterm and thankfully the last section was about Ancient Greece, like REALLY Ancient Greece. The questions were about the Minoans and the Mycenaeans respectively. It was so easy to recall the information from lecture because I associated the information with key points in Blue’s videos. It also helped because Blue made me more interested in researching these Ancient Greek societies, something I never thought I’d ever do in my free time. So from Me to Blue, thank you so much
Loved the Spectacular Spider-Man episode in which the symbiote takes control of Peter while he is sleeping and single-handedly puts some dirt in the Sinister Six's eyes like a total badass. Bully Maguire power at its finest, fellas! 😎👈👉
@@jaredknight8838 The three parter in Spider-Man TAS is better IMO. Peter almost zeroes Rhino by smashing him with a giant metallic door and it's a genuinely scary and serious scene, especially for a cartoon that had such notorious problems with violence censorship. And when it comes time to do a "menacing, scary, evil voice", Christopher Daniel Barnes just hams it up to eleven and it's freaking perfect. Then there's Hank Azaria, who absolutely kills it as Eddie Brock. He's incredibly creepy when he becomes Venom in Part III. The whole thing is just awesome.
@@madsgrams2069 The problem I have with the TAS symbiote is that it comes across as if the Symbiote is mostly responsible for Peter's actions? It's more explicitly an evil power up that's possessing Peter. When the Symbiote/Black Suit, to me, is at it's most intriguing when it taps into existing frustrations and flaws Peter already had. If Peter had shown to be struggling with anger prior to the arc, maybe it would've hit better? But it does fall short to me in that aspect. Whereas Spectacular Spiderman explicitly makes Peter more selfish rather than just violent. it taps into his already existing frustrations about his wages, his friend group, and the lack of recognition he gets as Spiderman. I do agree that TAS Venom > Spectacular Venom though. Hank's voice is way more menacing and his rivalry with Peter, I feel, was much better executed than Eddie's more big brother relationship with Peter.
@@Birthday888 I feel like your problem with this arc is more an incongruence between expectation and reality than between intention and execution. The screenplay never intended that in the first place. The symbiote was always meant to be a malevolent force that entices Peter with power that is intoxicating...like a drug. And what do psychedelic drugs do, even in real life? Yeah...they twist someone's personality, basically make them a monster, even if they were previously a sweet-heart. It's not a Clark with red kyprotonyte kind of thing. It's like Peter says in Part II: "if the symbiote almost drove me nuts, I can't even imagine what it's doing to a pumped-up lunatic like Brock". It's why the very cheesy and campy scream he does when he's chasing Shocker, that line that is borderline ridiculous works so well: because it highlights what a lovable nerdy dude, like Peter is at heart, turns into when trying to be a "cool, tough guy" because that's the perception someone like him would have of being so. Raimi tried to do a similar thing in Spider-Man 3, but the cringy dance scenes were...just too much.
I hope Peter's corruption in the game is nuanced. I don't want him to become cruel and merciless the minute he gets the Symbiote. It should be gradual like Otto's turn to villainy.
@@shadowmaster1313Now THAT would be interesting and different from how they've handled the black suit in past games (either as part of the story with slight gameplay changes or as leading to binary choices, in Web of Shadows), it would add an RPG element to the game *and* story
He should just lose himself to power, like he consciously decides that the power he gains is allowing him to save more people even if it comes at great personal cost because he misinterprets the meaning of "great power, great responsibility" and believes that he is obligated to use it
@@shadowmaster1313 Arcane's 2017 immersive sim _Prey_ had something like that, the more eldritch alien DNA (also black goop corrupters from space) you spliced into your own, the more dope powers you got, but it also in every way made you less human. It would be cool if it was like the METRO games, where the ending changes depending, obviously, but the karma system itself is completely hidden from the player.
Something I will say about the Spectacular Sinister Six fight is that Peter goes to bed saying “I wish I could just go to sleep and wake up with the six in jail” And then when he wakes up, the suit did that. Even in the Spectacularverse it’s clear that the Symbiote isn’t a downright evil entity it’s just got a skewed moral compass. It WANTS to help Peter accomplish his goal it just doesn’t understand things like connections to other people. At least that’s my oversimplification
Something a lot of people miss and it's frankly my favorite part of the symbiote as a character and it's a concept is that never once was it trying to hurt Peter. It was truly trying to make Peter what it believed to be the best version himself (themselves) and it even to an extent shows us this amount of care to Eddie. I guess I always felt bad for the symbiote.
I understand where you come. I feel like less of there either fault and more Of The symbiote can be good but spiderman is bit strick with his code to teach it right, he's fine but it needed teacher that was fine with outburst and that's not Peter
Red is just a fun mood for this diatribe. 9:18 Fans adjust to Symbiote Spiderman 12:48 Red's impressed 13:16 McGuffin Resource 16:01 Red's impressed x2 17:26 😂 20:54 Red has a joke in the chamber 25:21 "God damn it." 35:33 Red's Sus detector 36:00 Red goes off on SM3 39:31 Sinister 42:08 Red's Fun 43:38 SM^3 43:56 Weeeeeee 46:35 Uh-Huh x2 Blue-isms 16:10 OwO 19:00 He said it, he said the thing! 45:13 Gulf
elaborating on the point of Peter always getting back up from his lowest point, i love how that continues even onto Venom. it’s such a core part of peter that even Venom, the dark specter of peter’s past, get to pull themselves out of the darkness and they become heroes in their own right.
I do somewhat like the comic through-line that the symbiote isn't actually evil, it's just that it's been exposed to so much negative emotions and thoughts that it's basically driven it insane.
Can we get a sequel to this about Insomniac Spider-Man 2's black suit arc? Because holy shit, I love so much about it. It revisits some old hits of previous black suit arcs with new twists, excellently utilizes the fact that Peter isn't the only Spider-Man in this universe, and takes advantage of its status as a video game to enhance so many moments through the gameplay.
I love how the symbiote kinda gets worse and worse cause of the motives of its hosts. They make a point that the symbiote brings the hosts issues to the forefront. At first Harry just wants to keep living, so his personality isn’t effected, he just stays alive. I don’t think the symbiote likes only being used as life support, so it moves on to Peter, who wants to be a better Spider-Man, and the symbiote uses this desire and the guilt over not saving Aunt May to make Peter think being a better Spider-Man means being super violent and not caring about Miles and MJ. The Lizard boss fight does this beautifully. Peter tries to talk Connors down, but then he gets frustrated and he’s just tearing into Connors and saying his family was right to leave him after he turned into the Lizard. And you get this horrible sense that this is not our Peter that we’ve spent 2 and half games with. And then when Harry gets it back, he’s incredibly bitter about dying, and the symbiote uses this and Harry’s natural altruism to convince him that assimilating the planet is a solution. I love how the symbiote always twists what the host wants instead of just “you’re more aggressive and irritable”
MJ getting accidentally hit in the middle of a scuffle means even more because we know how strong Peter is when he stops holding back. It’s bad enough that he hit someone he didn’t mean to, if he hits someone with more force than he meant to it’s going to end really badly. Additionally, Red’s giggles at making Peter “act unwise” were great
In regards to Spider-Man 3, I feel like Symbiote wasn't really all that evil or murderous. He amplifies the user, even emotionally and he latches on both Peter and Brock during time of immense emotional distress where they fight their hate against a certain person. It just makes Peter's rage boil over his restraints and enables Brock to actually do what he wants.
@@rayyanfahmi7349 Spiderman didn't have Nero to help him out, so now he has to live being low mid tier im UMVC3. Meanwhile the guy who would make the symbiote his personal doppelganger is top tier
According to Dr Connors in the movie it especially amplified aggression, if I remember correctly. That sounds pretty bad. Only in a very literal sense it isn't "evil" because it doesn't seem sentient, but it still drove someone as chill and kind as Peter to hurt innocents and people he cared for and who knows how bad it could've gotten with more time.
The Symbiote also gives off vibes of being an allegory for drugs and addiction. I mean, it gives Peter extra powers, nulls his inhibitions, and getting rid of it looks like an extreme version of withdrawal. Could be a decent way to explain addiction to teenagers.
Funny enough, the concept for the black suit (which was made by a fan) was originally just a man-made suit with “unstable molecules”, like Reed Richards just had the materials and free time to improve it, Spider-Man's webs, and build a wingsuit-like web glider. He only dumped it because it sacred people and the webs controls were neuro-based, which messed with his muscle-memory. The suit would also have a red symbol, which I think is weird since blue/purple looks cool on Venom, even if those colors were traditionally used to just help give dynamic lighting for black costumes, making fans debate on its actual color (cough cough Spider-Man 2099). Also: Sony's Marvel's Insomniac's Presents: Spider-Man 2: The Standard Edition: Includes Spider-Man: Miles Morales: The Ultimate Edition: Includes Sony's Marvel's Insomniac's Presents: Spider-Man: Created by the developers behind Sony's Marvel's Insomniac's Presents: Spider-Man: Created by the developers behind Sunset Overdrive (PS4) (2018): Featuring Dante from Devil May Cry: Now with VR Compatibility (PS5) (2023)
I feel the best way for the symbiote to interact with Peter is to have it bond with him after a tragedy. Peter is going through so much at a moment in time and isn't able to deal with them while being Spider-Man. The symbiote bonds with him and all that sorrow and grief becomes anger and fury.
Now I’m sad that we never got a third Andrew Garfield movie because that would have been perfect. He’s still reeling from Gwen’s death and put those feelings on the back burner because NYC needs Spider-Man, and now comes this entity with the promise of making that pain go away and never let it happen to him again.
90s Venom is my favorite Venom adaptation. Not only a great design, but the actions Eddie does is legit creepy. He stalks Mary Jane, tries to invite himself into Aunt Mays home. Kinda remarkable how no other adaptation has really explored the whole stalker/invader perspective
I think that's straight from the comics, if I'm not mistaken. I think Mary Jane hates the Symbiote Suit as a result of Venom popping up at Peter's house to scare her in his first appearance.
Man it has been literal years since I've seen or heard anyone talk about the 90s Spiderman and how insane (and insanely GOOD) it was. Thanks for bringing back some fond memories Red and Blue!
I think the '90s Spider-man cartoon got kind of lost in the shadow of the similarly amazing X-Men cartoon, which had the critical and fan attention at the time (and that amazing theme song).
A quote I'm reminded of from a battle at the center of the mind in a non superhero comic. The dark half asserts "you are who you are on your worst day" and the response (paraphrased) is "yes thats true, but you are who you are on the next day too, and each day you get to choose if thats going to be your new worst day or if you're going to be better" and it feels like that exchange fits thematically here
90's spider man cartoon was honestly so good, and holds up surprisingly well. They even did secret wars! They did the clone saga in a way that was better than the comics, they had the idea for spiderverse, and I can't help but feel they are responsible for basically setting in stone spidey's status quo, as sometimes lab tech, usually photographer, in love with MJ and no one else, ect. Hell I even sometimes forget that Hobgoblin isn't an interesting marvel character, since the show did such a good job putting him over.
Yeah, 90s animated Hobgoblin (voiced by Mark Hamil!) was honestly more interesting than any of the comicbook Hobgoblins. Even including the Jason Macendale version (the one who got the most character development, IMO), despite clearly being based on him the most (a sadistic mercenary who relied more on tools and sheer ruthlessness than actual powers).
One of my favorite Spider-Man what if stories is Spider's Shadow, a what if Spider-Man became Venom. At first it seems like it's going to be one of those stupid "What if this really good character snapped and killed everyone because that would be edgy" stories, but it's an incredible deep dive into Peter Parker's character and who he is. Basically, it takes the standard symbiote storyline, but changes one thing. Peter refuses the help from the Fantastic Four and keeps the symbiote. This is what leads to everything, ultimately. Just before he went to the Fantastic Four to run a diagnostic on the suit, he had beaten up Hobgoblin pretty badly, and after he left the Fantastic Four, he went to Aunt May's place and Hobgobling blows it up. Peter goes to fight him, but then realizes "Oh shit, May!' and tries to save her, but the symbiote doesn't let him go near the fire. This leads to May's death, and this is where Peter Parker becomes Venom in the story. He goes all out on Hobgoblin, and in this fight decides that it's best to kill him, so he can never bring harm to Aunt May again. He left the body webbed up on a streetlight, so people are all like "Spider-Man killed a man?!" while people who know Peter are like "He would never, we gotta go see what's up." Meanwhile Peter is being persuaded by the symbiote to go and kill more of his villains, and Peter's like "Yeah, that's a good idea." So he goes out and kills some more, and he's eventually stopped when J Jonah Jameson essentially creates a new Sinister Six team along with Eddie Brock (who stole Doc Ock's arms after killing him, which is honestly the only sour note of the story, because Eddie really didn't need to be a part of this story). But Peter kills the entire team except for Eddie and Jameson. What ends up happening is that during a fire, the symbiote is weakened, weak enough that Peter can call out to Jameson to help him. Jameson is like "Peter Parker?!" and gets him out of there with no suit. The rest of the story is about the symbiote hitching a ride back to NYC and taking over Reed Richards, but what's incredibly important about this story is how Peter reacts to what he's done, and how MJ talks to him during this time. Peter, of course, decides to take responsibility for what's happened and goes out to stop the symbiote, once and for all. He's beating himself up about it. He's saying that the Symbiote didn't make him so angry or make him want to kill those guys, HE wanted to do it all. He wanted every last thing that's happened here, and he can't reconcile that. So MJ tells him that he's the best person she knows. It's not because he's perfect, it's because he isn't. It's because despite the anger that he feels, the flaws that he has, all that darkness that's truly a part of him, he fights against it and does good. He does what's right, and how much harder it is to do what's right when he's fighting against that anger all the time. The story goes on to be about Peter and the rest of the Superhero community going to stop the symbiote, the symbiote takes over all the other heroes except for a few, and eventually ends when the Symbiote is killed in a pretty badass way, with Johnny Storm posing as Peter to lure the symbiote to him, then flaming on when it attaches to him. Peter goes to trial for his crimes (Kingpin had leaked out Peter Parker's identity after figuring it out due to looking into what Hobgoblin had done before Peter killed him), but is found innocent. Reed Richards had died during the war against the symbiote, and Sue Storm offers Peter a place on the Fantastic Four, and that's where it ends, with Peter forging his new life after everything that had gone down. Ultimately, I think that this is an amazing deep dive into exactly who Peter Parker is, and why it's so important that he isn't perfect. It easily could've been another story about a superhero just going on a murderous rampage, but it's not. It's a downward spiral of Peter having his anger be fed into until a breaking point, and then going on to do what he does best, fix his own mistakes.
The best assessment of Peter I've ever heard is that he's "exactly good enough of a person to be crushed by the guilt of failing to be a better person"
I respect your opinion on the Spider-Man 2 aspects you didn't like, but I definitely want to discuss them a bit. Before continuing, remember that the order of the scenes is Losing Powers > Uncle Ben Scene > Normal Peter > Burning Building > Aunt May Speech > Getting Powers There's a clear thematic reason as for why Peter regains his powers when he does, and it's the culmination of multiple things he's learned after giving up his responsibilities/allowing his stress and lack of powers to enable him towards avoiding responsibility. He has been struggling with his social life immensely, his love for Mary Jane, and his reputation being smeared constantly by Jonah, among things like rent, work, and school. The stress overwhelms him, and he starts losing his powers. When the love of his life is about to seal the deal, cutting him out of her life forever, it completely destroys him, and he loses his powers seemingly for good. He seeks a doctor's opinion and is given the advice that he does have a choice in who he is, and only he knows who he is. For the longest time, he's been living by Uncle Ben's words and guidance. He's been living up to the responsibility that Uncle Ben bestowed on him - not his powers, even though we've been told he's chosen responsibility. We think he has, but he really hasn't. He was doing it for Uncle Ben. He felt obligated to do be Spider-Man, due to his guilt in Uncle Ben's death. We then get the amazing Uncle Ben/Peter scene, where he tells him that he wants a life of his own. It's heartbreaking, because Peter knows this is a selfish act, but what else can he do? His powers are gone, he wants a better life where he can focus on school, and he wants to be with Mary Jane. He only sees one choice, and that's to be himself. In the next montages, we see Peter excel at school, fix most of his relationships, and find confidence within his daily life - confidence that he was lacking due to all his hardships and failures, due to being Spider-Man. The burning building scene occurs about an hour and 17 minutes into the film, and at this point we've seen Peter avoid conflict/situations where he could've saved someone (like the guy beaten in the alleyway, or following police cars). However, the burning building scene symbolizes one of his first big accomplishments as Spider-Man, from the first film, and mirrors it well. He was able to save a woman's baby while also gaining the respect of New York's citizens, police, and fire fighters in this act, allowing Spider-Man to be seen a hero that the people needed and allowing Peter to do right by his uncle. In the scene, Peter is no longer Spider-Man, but is compelled to help anyway, as Peter, because he still feels like he can do some good. He wants to do some good, and he's making the choice to do so. The responsibility is present in the back of his mind. But, he quickly realizes that, without his powers, he can't do the one thing that *he is now compelled to do*, meaning he is leaning closer and closer to following the path of responsibility again. Even still, he's powerless, and feels the guilt build inside him that, if he simply focused on being Spider-Man this entire time instead of focusing on himself and his social life, he would have the power to save the person trapped on the 4th floor. But why is that such a bad thing? Why is focusing on living a happy life a bad thing? It's not, normally. But to Peter, and the audience, it is. "This is my gift. My curse. Who am I? I'm Spider-Man." Immediately after the burning building scene, he goes to Aunt May in search of answers, and she gives one of the most powerful speeches I've seen in any medium, but never before a more effective speech that delivers the core message of the film. In order to be a good person, in order to help the people that need it and to be the hero people need - Peter needs to learn to give up the things he wants the most, even his dreams. MJ, his social life, the comfort not being Spider-Man brings; Peter needs to give it all up if he truly wants to do the thing that's right. He knows it's not about him, and this is the lesson he learns. People need Spider-Man, and they can only do that if Peter's head and conscience is clear. He prepares to say goodbye to MJ, letting his love for her go and allowing her to live her own life, unshackled by his will they/won't they approaches. He knows it's for the best, and that he'll survive. He has to, because people need Spider-Man, and during this process he's working to regain his powers. He meets with MJ, telling her that he can't be with her. He has his responsibilities, responsibilities that he now chooses to accept wholeheartedly, and lets his love for her go. MJ isn't so willing to let it go, though, and she hangs onto the fleeting Peter for just a bit longer, asking for a kiss, grounding him before it all comes to a head and he makes the mistake of cutting all ties. Because for Peter, he's swung so far in the "Peter" side of his life that he doesn't understand quite yet that he needs a balance. He doesn't fully grasp the lesson he has to learn. On the surface, it's complete. Give up the things you want the most. The key word, however, is "sometimes". SOMETIMES, we have to be steady and give up the things we want the most, even our dreams. Not all the time, and not none of the time. Sometimes, and it's a play-by-play choice that Peter needs to carry with him at all times; constantly learning, constantly growing. Then, in that very moment, Peter and Spider-Man's worlds collide. This is the single reason why his powers come back the way they do. Peter's social life and Spider-Man's heroics merge as Mary Jane is kidnapped by Octavius, and Peter is injured/confronted by him. Mary Jane is a victim in this scene, but unlike any of the other victims that Peter has saved thus far, Mary Jane doesn't just need Spider-Man, she needs Peter. She loves Peter. This isn't just a moment of her being a damsel in distress, but an opportunity for her and Peter to connect for the first real time since the Aunt May hospital scene in the first film. It's this combination of both Spider-Man and Peter Parker, existing at the same time and without contention, that breaks him free from his doubts, stress, and worries, and he finds a balance within himself - gaining his powers back and becoming the hero the city needs. He saves Mary Jane, tells her his secret, and the two halves of his life finally converge in a meaningful way, allowing him to set aside his own personal angst and anxiety while choosing to live the life of responsibility that he knows is needed. He is no longer tethered to Uncle Ben's words as his motivation, but finds a form of self-motivation; motivation that he lacked in the first place, which resulted in the earlier spiral and eventual loss of his powers.
Felt like they really glossed over the scenes that gave Peter the motivation to get his powers back. Especially Aunt May’s speech and the Train civilians. After Aunt May’s talk and all the crimes and tragedies Peter failed to stop then MJ’s abduction was more of the last straw. It didn’t feel out of place because of all that set up. The consequences for Peter’s lack of powers were not only to show consequences to motivate him again. Those scenes had more than one use. MJ’s romance may not be compelling to many but it served its purpose for Peter’s arc and partially MJ’s arc as well. She wanted to feel valued but didn’t feel it from Peter due to him disappearing all the time. So she got hitched with a famous astronaut but doesn’t sincerely love him like Peter. Peter prioritizes himself much like MJ. They’re lives improved respectively but they don’t have each other. And they want each other. Personally prefer their romance than the MCU. At least there’s a journey for both characters.
Very well said, a great analysis of the internal conflict of Peter that drives this film and makes it great. The clarity that peter gains through having no powers for some time as well as aunt may's pep talk are what allow for his powers to slowly return. When he finally steels himself in his resolve to commit to being spiderman and let mj go is when his powers truly return. He isn't confused anymore as to who he should be and what he wants, its clear now that his destiny is to be spiderman.
In the first few appearances of Venom, he was just as murderous and insane as his offspring Carnage when he was a villain. Later when Venom became an anti-hero, they made him less mentally unstable when he entered his Lethal Protector phase. Also the symbiote has had many hosts in it's lifetime. It's most well known host's are Peter Parker, Eddie Brock and Flash Thompson. The version of Gwen Stacy that becomes her universe's version of Spider-Man is bonded to her universe's version of the symbiote, but it's not as powerful as it's Earth-616 counterpart.
@@ActuallyAthena It was! In Deadpool's Secret Wars issue #3, the symbiote briefly latched onto Deadpool. He was busy checking himself out with it, enjoying the fact that it could transform. However, when he realized that the symbiote was alive, he removed it from himself, not wanting to screw it up with his own screwed upness. Too little, too late though as this brief bonding actually caused the symbiote to go insane and led to the symbiote we know today. I'd also like to mention that Deadpool's Secret Wars came out much later than the original Secret Wars issues, so this is kind of a retcon and an explanation for why the symbiote is the way it is. There's also some stuff with the Guardians of the Galaxy comic where the Guardians discover the symbiote's home planet and then its people help cure it of insanity, allowing Flash Thompson to tap into the full power of the symbiote
This of course is all also not even touching the Clone Saga era Planet of the Symbiotes and it's added weirdness-baggage, with Spidey, Ben Riley and Venom all having to deal with an accidental symbiote apocalypse using some of the tech from Maximum Carnage. Course this in turn also tried to shove the symbiote itself into an attempt at an altruistic/bad breakup deal itself towards Peter to help stand it out over the more feral planet-symbiotes who happily latched onto anyone they could get their claws on to sow havoc later in the arc.
On the subject of the landlord from Reimi Spidey 3, I always loved that scene too. The look of utter bewilderment and concern on his face just sells how out of character that was for Peter. Reminds me of what I think is an old proverb. "A wise man fears 3 things: The sea during a storm, a moonless night. and the anger of a kind man." The gentle souls can be the most dangerous when they snap. both because you don't know what they're capable of when angry, and they might have experienced anger enough to keep from doing something VERY drastic. Edit, Post Spidey 3: I'm in agreement. That film did a lot well, it's just overly condensed and rushed as hell. I always felt that if they'd made it a two parter, it would have been much better received. Like if we were given just a little more time to Marinate in Black Suit Spidey, and maybe cliffhanger on him nearly killing hobgoblin, or maybe move that to before the Sandman kill and have it end on Sandman's death/that being ultimately unfulfilling, then pick up next film with the rejection of the symbiote, we'd get everything that movie could be.
I think that if they'd cut out Harry getting Amnesia, they could've had him reach out to Sandman and use him as an semigwilling sidekick to get at Peter - Harry offering Flint money to pay for his daughter's illness. Honestly, just cut Venom from 3 and let him be a Villain in 4.
Here’s the thing about getting his powers back to save MJ in Spider-Man 2: Otto foreshadowed it early when he told Peter that keeping something like love inside can make you sick. In the comics, Peter has had moments where his powers stopped due to psychosomatic reasons (guilt over uncle Ben causing them to stop when the sinister six made their debut). The whole point is Peter is of the mind that he can’t be with her or happy in general unless he’s no longer Spidey. So when she’s kidnapped, it’s his subconscious wake up call that he can’t do this anymore. He loves her, and he is Spider-Man, and he’s going to save her and stop Doc Ock. It’s him finally being revealed to her that finally lets him be honest with her and himself, that he is Spider-Man and that he does love her, even if he thinks that means they can’t be together. And she thankfully takes the initiative in the end because now she knows the truth and makes it clear that his superhero life is something she accepts wholeheartedly (a recurring theme from her comic counterpart secretly knowing he was Spidey and choosing to still accept him all the way as opposed to Gwen or Black Cat who only accepted one half of him). At least, that’s how I interpret it. Feel free to disagree.
Just to comment on the whole Spider-Man 2 thing: I can see where Blue is coming from but I’d argue that Peter was already ready to be Spider-Man when he met MJ at the diner. His conversation with Aunt May when she’s moving out is the moment Peter decides he still has to be Spider-Man. He even rejects MJ before Dock Ock kidnaps her. And another point too, the ending of Spider-Man 2 isn’t just MJ and Peter getting together anyways, it’s both MJ and Peter finally not lying to themselves and finally admitting they both like each other! MJ ditching a wedding is icky, yes, but also completes her character arc of finally deciding something for herself. There’s a deleted scene with MJ and her actor friend that I wish made it into the movie proper because it basically spells out this entire arc for her. One of the biggest failings for Spider-Man 2 is not making the story for MJ more clear. One more thing, the last shot of the movie isn’t Peter swinging away, it’s MJ face. It’s arguably a moody last shot, and can be interpreted as the reality of MJ and Peter’s relationship setting in, how hard it will be to maintain having your boyfriend put himself at risk every day. Sorry for the diatribe but I felt it was important to specify. To simply say Peter’s entire motivation collapses to Mary Jane feels like an oversimplification of the 3rd act of Spider-Man 2.
I agree. There's a little ambiguity with his powers, because after Aunt May's speech he still doesn't seem to have them and I can see how someone would interpret it as MJ being in danger is what flips that switch, but my personal read on it is actually that it was rejecting MJ that was the catalyst there. He was at the café to tell her he couldn't see her, because he realized that the life he wanted to live as Peter and the life he to live as Spider-Man were incompatible and chose Spider-Man. It was when he realized that Spider-Man was more important than his relationship with MJ that his block was released, not just when she was in danger.
There's also a scene early in the film where Octavius tells Peter that love is a powerful thing and hiding it can make you sick. So there's another interpretation of the story that the reason for Peter losing his powers isn't the stress of living as Spiderman, it's the result of him not being able to resolve his feelings about MJ in a healthy way for the majority of the film.
I appreciate how Maguire Spiderman in No Way Home sort of touched on the very real work he had to do to make things work out between him and MJ. It's super downplayed in the delivery but it speaks to the characterization of Peter taking responsibility for his actions, even though he was hopped up on Symbiote Manic Juice, he recognizes his capacity to do wrong. I adore good characters who have such a tempting capacity to be the WORST villain and have to consciously work to be Better.
I, too, am a brown-eyed white boy that loves Spider-Man, but the Black Suit is my all-time favorite iteration! Not just because of the awesome aesthetic, but the acknowledgement and acceptance of our own darkness, like you said. Loved all your points and your passionate banter! "All forks and no spoons makes Spider-Man an edgelord." killed me!
I may be bias, but there is something about the Symbiote and it's influence on Spider-Man that that so clearly parallels the influence of the Dark Side on you.
In a way, the whole Symbiote storyline feels like it could easily be viewed as an analogy for substance abuse and addiction. It makes him feel good, maybe makes him stronger/more powerful, but messes with his behavior in a way that is bad for him and his personal relationships. It drives him to do things he wouldn't normally do. It's often very difficult for him to give up. Sometimes he gives it up and then takes it back again - or discovers that he never got rid of it in the first place, which is perhaps a more accurate interpretation. And then, even once he's actually finally managed to free himself, he still has to deal with all the shitty things he did (and also Venom).
I'm so extremely glad to hear someone else say Cosmonaut's line pretty soon after I saw his video because it was such a good damn line. I really loved this detail diatribe. I also love when it feels the convo goes more and more off rails similar to the Superman episode or even the Dragon Ball one. One opinion I have though regarding the Toby Spiderman symnbiote is that I wish you guys spoke more on how Raimi had no context for Venom himself as it is so often mentioned. I feel like that bring your points home even more with how bare bones Venom is because it is from the eyes of someone who didn't grow up with Venom like a lot of us did. Especially when Venom wasn't planned as well. Since you tied movie 2 to 3, considering just how unplanned and unknown the Venom angle was and was able to hit some of the real good core themes of the symbiote suit really shows just how good Raimi was at really getting to the heart of his cast.
One more point I would touch on is that canonically the suit does not make him stronger, it only loosens his self imposed handicap. The reason the fights are more brutal and the villains say as much, is because his super strength is peaking out more than they are used to and he doesn't care as much if they get hurt. (edited to correct spelling mistake)
@@animeotaku307 Similar to, but there is a subtle difference. A placebo causes a positive outcome because you think something you are taking/doing is causing a positive. In this situation Peter Parker knows his full strength and limits himself. The symbiote just removes the thought of a handicap from his mind.
@@up_dog2127 There is the idea of compatibility with the symbiote and the host. It has been canonized that Eddy Brock is the perfect host. I would look up "the king in black" and venom "the end" to see what I am talking about
To show how much trauma venom caused Peter. There is a comic where Peter saves a man who turns out to be a tailor that makes super hero costumes, they end up having lunch at a diner and talking shop. The tailor asks Spiderman why he doesn't put a mouth in the costume, cause he always has to pull it up to eat and what not. Flash to that night in bed Peter can't stop thinking about it and goes to the bathroom to look at himself in the mirror with the mask on. He pushes part of the mask in to his mouth to see how it would look and immediately gets a flash of Venom's toothy grin in the mirror, rips the mask off and just yells "nope"
One take on the black suit that I'd like to see is the suit amping up and perverting the power/responsibility maxim in some way. Perhaps pushing Spider-Man to supercharge the concept of great responsibility to be be HIS great responsibility, leading his to lash out at others that would help. Mainly, I'd like to see something more than the suit makes Peter angrier.
The bit with Peter doing the wrestling match and getting stiffed is in fact straight from the original comics. Great video. Loved hearing your takes on this.
1:34:48 THIS! _This is what the weird cringe dancing scene is for!_ If they just let black-suited Spiderman run around being badass in a way that's cathartic for the audience, we're going to root for him to keep doing that and see anyone stopping him as a wet blanket. They needed to show him losing his inhibitions as also being very cringe and uncomfortable for us, so we'd go "Yeah this guy is clearly losing his humanity, please make it stop."
I like the symbiote as an amoral influence that both gives peter the power to take all he desires and drives him to do so without regard for whether his desires are good or evil. It's way more interesting to me as an enabler of Peter's own worst self, than as an influence that makes him something other than himself.
I'm surprised you talked for so long about Spider-Man 3, but never once talked about how the theme of the movie is revenge and forgiveness (unless there's a part of the discussion that I forgot). Peter wants revenge on Sandman, Harry and Eddy want revenge on Peter. Eddy refuses to give up on revenge to the point that in the end, it literally kills him. Harry lets go of his revenge quest, but doesn't forgive himself. Peter is the one character who forgives both others and himself, and is thus the only character who makes it out the other side alive. It's frankly impressive that Raimi managed to fit Venom into the revenge narrative, since I'm almost certain that originally it was only going to be about Harry and Sandman.
When you mentioned the thoughts VS. Actions and how it pertained to "wanting uncle Ben's killer to die/be dead" escalating to going out and killing him, I immediately thought about how some people get really friendly when they're drunk and some people get really rude
Honestly the best Detail Diatribes are where they go "Hey I really like this thing you may or may not have heard of, and for the next one or two hours I'm gonna gush about why I really like the thing."
37:00 There were two great moments I liked in Spider-man 3. One was Sandman pulling himself together. They gave the vibe that this was the hardest thing he's even done. I was dealing with sleep paralysis a fair bit at the time and that amount of effort just to move *a little* reminded me struck home. The second was there's a moment when Harry's putting himself together and on the big screen they managed to hit a shot and lightning and makeup to make James Franco look like Willem Dafoe and that was good.
I have a chronic illness, and whenever i am having an episode i listen to your detailed diatribes and it really comforts me. Thank you so much for making these! It makes my worst moments bearable
I do like how, while the Symbiote is very frequently portrayed as evil, it is also semi-frequently portrayed as actually caring about Peter in its own weird way. I remember Spider-Man: Life Story where Peter uses the Symbiote for a number of years while knowing that it's alive since it's a good equalizer to help when he's getting slower in his older years. But he does eventually reject it once it goes out of his control, and it attaches to Kraven to seek vengeance on him. However, when Peter is about to die in the final book and needs a bit of help averting a disaster, the Symbiote immediately comes to his aid and helps him be a hero in his final moments. I really like that dynamic.
I do love that originally the symbiote just wanted to help Peter get more heroing done while also letting him sleep, and simply didn’t realize Peter wasn’t getting the rest he needed doing that.
And also didn't seem to understand the concept of consent, And not taking someone's body for a joyride
@@eh9618I mean it was a baby copying what it saw. Peter never even took the time to study it or try and communicate with it before expelling it.
@@travislyonsgary yea. Plus the symbiote didn't really have a way to communicate with Peter back then. So of course unfortunate misunderstandings happen between the two
The best versions of Venom I feel have this. Because Venom wants the be a hero, it thinks it’s doing right but it lacks the same moral core as Peter. It has no problems killing criminals, it sees no issue cutting off people that hurt Peter, the people who don’t treat him fairly deserve all the vitriol they can muster. Which is why it hates Peter so much after he rejects it because in Venom’s mind they did absolutely nothing to deserve this hate and disgust from Peter. Venom outside of trying to kill Peter is an alright guy, he kills, murders and eats people but Venom wants to be a hero and Spider-Man (in Venoms mind) is a two faced lying coward who got rid of the only person trying to help him.
@@Broomer52basically we need a storyline where Peter learns all this and him and venom come back together again
To think all this sh*t with the symbiote happened because of this:
Peter in Secret Wars: "Damn, my suit is in tatters. Let's see what this random alien item machine has..."
To be fair, everyone else had just got cool new threads from the machine Reed pointed them to, and when they told Spidey that they got their costumes from the machine in the room over there, they didn't mention that the other machine dispensed symbiotic goo...
The detail that I'm actually really sad that Red & Blue didn't mention is that he DOESN'T just go to a random machine - he just notices some of the other heroes coming out a room on the Mysterious Alien Compound they're all staying, and notices the tears in their costumes are all fixed. He asks what happened, and they casually point back to where they came from and are like "oh yeah we found this cool machine in that room which automatically fixes clothes! You should go try it out, bud." He then goes into the room, but the other heroes neglected to mention that there are multiple mysterious-looking machines in there, so he literally says out loud "let's try this thing! It looks like it wants to make me a costume." and that's how he gets the symbiote. Later on, of course, he learns that that was, in fact, the wrong machine, but decides to completely ignore the ominous subtext in favor of Awesome New Suit.
@@sabertoothkimTo be fair, it DOES look pretty cool.
“... And that new Spider-Woman(Julia Carpenter) has a really cool and sleek back-and-white costume.”
Moral of the story: Never put on strange clothes. It's basically the same lesson from Alien to never stick your face in an alien egg.
The Symbiote is always an amazing character moment for Peter. People make fun of the 90s animated series for doing it over the top, but nobody will ever forget, “I’LL CHASE YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.”
who makes fun of it? It's one of the best moments of the show, if not the best. Just seeing Peter full dark mode is so chilling. Great, very on-your-face reminder of "with great power comes great responsability".
SHOCKEEEERRRRRRRR!!
The 90's show is the epitome of cheese, but that doesn't mean it's not great in its own way. One thing I'm legit impressed by is Peter's scream during MJ's "death". GIF and memes aside, he REALLY sells it.
Also, shoutouts for basically being the first person to do the Spider-Verse concept which eventually lead to some great stories.
@@hollandscottthomas YOU CANT HIDE FROM ME SHOCKERRRRR
@@leithaziz2716wait is the 90s show by any chance the same one from that short video of peter screaming "NOOOOO" while some woman (i guess MJ) fades away? If it is then the caliber of that scream totally checks out lol
For me, the "SHCOCKER!" scene doesn't live rent free in my brain.
It owns the condo. It makes other memories pay rent to be there.
"GET BACK HERE, SHOCKER!"
@@s.p.d.magentaranger1822”ILL CHASE YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE EARRRRRRRRRTH!!!”
When I was younger, I thought the "You can't escape me, I'll chase you to the ends of the earth!" line was said by shocker, not Spider-man for some reason. 💀
@@thegungerbrospodcast7671Nah that’s divided-attention kid logic to a T.
‘Someone’s yelling Shocker over and over? Clearly he’s yelling his own name!’ 😂
@@thegungerbrospodcast7671Ngl I thought the same
The thing is, the Symbiote joy-riding around, being Spider-Man even when Peter is asleep and fighting crime as efficiently as possible is actually kind of endearing. Like, as alien as puppeteering someone's body around without their knowledge or consent would seem to a normal person, as an actual alien, it was doing what it thought the host would want.
You know somewhere in Peter's head there were worries that his villains were becoming too much of a problem for him. So of course the symbiotic suit that bonded with him on a psychological level could sense those anxieties and would literally jump at the chance to do something about it and help its host get those good brain chemicals going again.
Good intentions, horrible execution.
Then he sheds the suit. Massive breakup, after the suit had done *everything* it could for him. He just cut it off in an extremely painful experience (high frequency sound waves, usually). Ofc it's gonna hold a grudge.
My understanding is that Peter left the symbiote with so much trauma. And he's kinda the toxic ex that makes it seem like the symbiote is evil. Meanwhile Venom is chilling with Flash and Brock 🤣
That ignores that the Venom symbiote takes things to a logical extreme. In most iterations it doesn't just fight crime for him while he's unconscious, it warps his mind and nearly makes him commit murder several times.
@@victorsardaneta8727they weren't meant to last
@@insomniagobrrr5542 Peter had too much baggage
@@General_Weebus But again, that comes from the fact that the symbiote is AN ALIEN ORGANISM that was never exposed to human morality. It's just like how the Mi-Go (from Lovecraft) might look evil and sinister to humans, but that's only because their morality is so different than anything humans would know. The symbiote viewed Peter as another living being and it tried to accommodate his needs in the only way it knew how, while Peter just saw it as a convenient living weapon and it rightly backfired when Venom (and worse, CARNAGE) entered the picture.
The sudden like sucked back to Earth dread of a cocky villain when they realize a hero is actually possibly about to murder them is honestly my favorite thing that anti-kill hero stories can do.
"This guy could've killed me this whole time and he made the conscious choice not to, meaning I could fight him and occasionally win while fighting my hardest. And now he's making the opposite choice. I'm not fighting for my pride anymore, I'm fighting for my genuine _survival_ now, against a foe that has been kicking my ass-while holding back-for 50 years."
I love the idea of the Symbiote being Spider-Man's jilted lover. They both know they don't work together, but if Peter ever offered to take them back, they'd drop their current host in a heartbeat, but Peter never would because he knows their relationship was super toxic.
In fact, it has taken many years and kind of a bit of couple therapy with Eddie, but the symbiote is pretty much completely over Peter by now. Of course, now they have a ton of different baggage to unpack.
@@sinisternorimaki Even then the poor thing still screws up. Like trying to help Flash during the Agent Venom days with his morale and baggage... by pushing him off the wagon back into alcoholism.
@@sinisternorimaki I don't even think it's subtext with Eddie anymore. Pretty sure they literally had sex.
Its like the only known case of making it romantic actually enhancing the plot
@@davidbjacobs3598 yeah they just did. They also call each other "my love" on like A LOT of occasions. so yeah that's not subtext that's just text. they are just ✨Gay~✨
(well idk if its like gay men but given that venom is not in the binary on account of being literal goo from space It's still queer anyways)
Fun detail: The reason the Symbiote was about to kill Dock Ock in cold blood in Spectacular out of all the Sinister Six, is because just a moment before, Octavious had voiced an interest in Spider-Man's new suit upon seeing its regenerative abilities and wanted to, essentialy, peel it off Peter to dissect and analyze it.
Something really cool about the sinister six fight is you can actually see that he’s fighting without his spider sense. He is getting hit in the back frequently and blind shot with stuff he would never been hit normally. But the symbiote makes him SO DAMN DURABLE the hits he takes doesn’t even matter.
I always liked that detail, because its so easy to miss. We see Spidey getting hit when he logically shouldn't, but because they established what a threat the Sinister Six were, we're willing to accept it and go "whoa Spideys actually getting hit, this is intense!". Then the reveal comes and it all makes sense.
Or he's just that durable anyway, pain notwithstanding
It's interesting that Red brought up the question of whether the real reason Spider-Man got the black suit was because the artists got tired of drawing all the little webs, because the reason the Hulk is green actually goes back to something similar. In the Hulk's first appearance, he was colored gray, but the cheap printers that were used to print the comics had a hard time keeping him a consistent shade, so they decided to make him green, which was easier for them to color.
Funny thing, it's also a similar reason why Super Saiyan is blond. Toriyama wanted to make it easier for his assistants to ink the manga, so he made Super Saiyan blond in order to circumvent shading Goku's hair.
@@Magni4cent_Pose And at one point he even turned SSJ into goku's default form to make shading even easier but later on changed his mind for some reason.
@@Emmariscobar Part of it is because its assumed when Goku mastered the Saiyan form he'd just keep it up admist combat (in DBZ that's pretty common). My guess is it became less necessary to keep him in that form alongside more doable over time (DBZ is wildly successful so there's be less of a need for shortcuts). Plus I imagine its to make the super saiyan form more unique rather than just a standard with the saiyan cast.
Iirc the black suit was originally sent as fan art by a reader (who was like 16 or something) and marvel liked it so much they bought it off him for 100 dollars
Peter did not get fired from the Connor's lab in the spectacular Spider-Man series because he was failing to be present, he was fired because he was taking pictures of the lizard, aka the mutated Dr. Connors, and then selling those pictures to the bugle for money. Mrs. Connor saw this as a massive breach of trust and fired him
Yeah, not to mention, Peter did nothing to help. He just f*cked off and hid while taking pictures. (In Connor’s eye, cuz in actuality, he *did* help)
@@Shadow1Yaz In all fairness, it is kind of sorta his job to photo Spiderman, did his best to ensure no one could know it was Curt, and had to leave so no one would know he was Spider-Man. Not only that, how would Peter be able to help *really*? The only way he could help was as Spider-Man. (Not saying he was right, just saying I understand)
@@jadedsilverlining9427 oh I understand too. I remember thinking “sir, you believe this boy to have below average physical prowess. The frick did you think he was going to do?”
Also, yeah, photography is his job. From what I gathered, Connor was sore that Peter wasn’t there for moral, just for a pay-check. But again, this guy (you think) can barely run track, it’s kinda impressive he stayed around to take pics in the first place.
@@Shadow1YazIt should be noted that at the time it *wasn't* Peter's job to take photos of Spider-Man. Jameson had put out a bounty to anyone who could bring him decent pictures of Spidey and Peter had spent the last few episodes trying to get the hang of taking his selfies. So, from Martha Connors' point of view, Peter went away scared once Dr. Connors becomes the Lizard (to which Martha didn't hold against him) then the next day she sees that he *didn't* run away but instead used her husband's crisis to get a payday. That's pretty fucked up.
@@VicEntity Yep exactly. He essentially bailed on making the antidote (which, as Peter, he would've been useful for) to get a different job which pays. Completely justified firing. Obviously, as Spider-Man, he did help, but really taking photos was pretty messed up even knowing he's Spider-Man.
The brawl with Harry was really sad. Because in a lot of ways it was inevitable. They spent so much of their lives being deeply jealous of each other and the moment their inhibitions slipped; they went for it.
Look at little Goblin Jr.
@@ChimeraMKgonna cry?
@@ViperOnRRGonna put some dirt in your eye
One of the big character contrasts I love with the Spider-Gwen comics is how her "Gwenom" phase ends with her using music to connect and build a relationship with her symbiote and ever since she's just casually been Technically A Venom but she's just chill and low-key about it. Fitting for the melancholy pop album Web-Slingers & Feelings vibe of Spider-Gwen's whole universe.
The symbiote represents the ultimate temptation, it’s not just an increase in her powers, it is the key to her getting her powers back, period. The whole build up is even more overtly an allegory for drug addiction than what the traditional black suit storyline has become, she has lost her powers and is reliant on the Kingpin's drug to get her powers back. The symbiote is introduced as an opportunity to get out, it will give her powers back permanently, but it is known that it will bring out her dark side.
Interestingly she actually conquers it straight away. It’s only when Murdoch reveals her dad is in a coma that she loses it. If anything the outside influences have more impact on her than the symbiote.
@@intergalactic92Raimi's Spider-Man 3 also does this theme with the symbiote but even more literal as Peter removes it by ringing the church bells and purifying himself of sin
TLDR: I need to read those comics, if only for the Symbiote portrayal
See this makes the most sense to me, the villain motivation of Symbiote pre-Venom is always really odd to me. That is to say it doesnt really have one outside of what is functionally make good person be bad person. In most aspects its actually treated like the modern interpritation of the Devil in Christianity. I like it much more when there is a proper motivation, even spite is a better motivation than corruption for corruption's sake. The best understanding I have for the Symbiote is that it should want its host to grow and get stronger because it is tied to them and the growth/survival is shared. The exploration of the Symbiote going "Hey man, these are some really unhealthy habbits for you as a living being," would be an interesting catalyst for Spiderman character growth.
@@thehob3836 the thing with spider-man is that the symbiote binds to his suit, it doesn't bind to him physically, unlike Eddie Brock who is always butt ass naked up in there.
The symbiote was always more attached to the concept of being Spider-Man than it was to Peter himself.
Gwen rly just went "Imma make friends with the horrors" and then just actually did it. Absolute power move.
literally made friends with the horrors by just being self aware. Iconic~
Honestly I think my favorite thing about the PS5 version of the black suit is that the first thing Peter notices about the suit is that he finally feels good. The bedrock of addiction is being in a vulnerable mental state to begin with.
49:05
Reds point about the landlord getting yelled at and turning to his niece and saying "he is good boy something must be wrong" also stuck out with me. Like it would have almost been typical for him to lash out someway or evict peter and later peter apologizes but instead it's a wholesome moment from this unassuming character and i like that
And legally Pete’s in the clear, he’s entitled to withhold rent if the landlord refuses to do required maintenance.
You mentioned the thing about the landlord, and honestly, its one of my favorite things about Sam Raimi Spiderman. That world is so mean and cynical on the surface, really driving home the thanklessness of being spiderman, but over and over again, it keeps giving you these tiny moments of deeper humanity in a way thats genuinely really touching and nuanced. Like his landlord is an ass but he sees Peter is hurting and gives him grace; J Jonah Jameson is also an ass most of the time, but then he lies to cover for Peter even when his life is on the line; the people of the city are generally pretty selfish and rude, but they try to step in when villains are getting the upper hand, and there's those people on the train that hide his identity for him. It's honestly really, really nice and i miss that vibe in newer superhero stuff.
People dont want to do the Jesus Christ allegory anymore but unfortunately Jesus Christ was one of the first Super Heroes who acted exclusively for good even when it was hard to do or he was beaten down and punished for it.
Wonder if that has to do with something I heard once:
"Californians are nice but not kind, and New Yorkers are not nice but kind."
@15BubblesOrigami thats been my experience of the two coasts honestly lol.
I also miss this. The Raimi movies did such an amazing job with characterizing New York and making it feel like a city of people instead of a city of props. Other superhero movies of that era were okay-ish with this, but really none came close to the Raimi movies, and none since have ever recaptured it.
@@davidbjacobs3598I’d also say that 9/11 really helped to pull this imagery out since 1 was heavily influenced by it (I’d really love to see the pre-9/11 cut)
Without a doubt, the symbiote's #1 fan was Black Cat for a mile. For those who don't know, in the 80's comics, Felicia found the symbiote suit so s*xy that she gave to Peter a cloth version of the outfit, which he (after losing the original red-blue suit in an avalanche) would wear for years until the arrival of Venom.
I mean can you blame her? It's sleek as fuck
He’d also break it out occasionally after specifically post civil war before…the thing happens that ruined him forever
@@creed8712I wish we could’ve had a little bit more time with good Spidey comics before that, even if just…
_One More Day_
If u could see that whole ass bakery in what looks like skin tight leather you’d understand her situation even if he’s a minor (well not in the comics at the time)
@@fangsabreI agree, it’s one of my favorite suits
EDIT: Okay, I'm getting a whole lot of comments of people kinda missing what I'm selling. I know there are other characters who've bonded to symbiotes that are heroes or crimefighters, I know there are other series that fit the scenario I described. I am not asking for that, I am specifically asking for this scenario to happen to *Peter Parker specifically* and nobody else.
I kind of want to see a version of the story where Peter Parker recognizes that the symbiote just hasn't developed any morals yet. So in recognizing it as a sentient being and a potentially useful tool/ally for crime fighting, he tries to help nurture it instead of rejecting it.
I thought about Spiderman story (not Peter Parker) where the symbiote originally bonded with an Army Dog and had to learn how to help people, its dog host, and the people around it. After that dog passes away, the symbiote is looking for a new partner and finds our protagonist, a former San Fransisco firefighter.
Was thinking it would be cool to base more spidery powers after the tarantula and wonder how two intelligent beings working together with distinct personalities work as one persona as Spider-Man.
@@matthewfrye6061 Is this an actual comic or an OC, because either way, that sounds pretty neat!
That’s (kind of) what happens in Spider’s Shadow, but (spoilers ahead) long story short, even though Spider-Man keeps it, it remains morally stunted, and at the end it still delves into that “if I can’t have you, no one can” mentality when Spider-Man eventually rejects it.
Agent Venom is kind of what you’re driving at here. Sort of?
@@Jgt612 Something like that, except let Peter have a nice, AU world where he keeps the Symbiote and helps nurture it into the hero it will eventually become with him. Like yeah, there are scenarios where this works out, but they either only do so for a temporary period before Peter Parker's status as a writer's punching bag kicks in and it all falls apart anyways or someone else entirely is the one becoming a proper hero long-term with the Venom symbiote. No, I specifically want a story where Peter makes it work and it doesn't fall apart in some way.
I love how the symbiote isn't inherently bad, it's just that Peter's emotional baggage was so big that he couldn't control it. Like every venom symbiote user after Peter managed to make peace with it and turn it into a force of good (Flash and Brock). However, Peter is so convinced that it's the Symbiote that's evil that it is always on sight for him. I found that amazing, it's a nice character flaw of Peter that he himself doesn't see.
He refuses to acknowledge that maybe it was him who made the symbiote like that, not the other way around. Don't get me wrong, Peter is an amazing hero, but it's true that most of the time he works out of guilt and disregards the concerns of those around him. His funny persona is a way to mask that sometimes, he really doesn't want to do the superhero thing, but from his perspective “someone has to do it”, it's more out of obligation than goodwill.
Venom represents all the things Peter has suppressed. His frustration at life for not being able to be a normal person, the frustration of enemies that keep going at him, the stress of managing a secret identity and him being fed up that those around him judge him for his failures without knowing the whole story (the Spider-Man thing eating at his whole life).
Peter is bad at managing his life to a ridiculous degree, because he's always so desperately looking for people to save (out of guilt) that he never dedicates time to himself. Heck, Otto did a better work managing Peter's life. He got a degree, built a company, and made the whole Spider-Man thing more efficient, all in a matter of months and just by not wasting himself away patrolling.
Point of contention: Superior Spider-man is not a demonstration that Peter Parker is the cause of Peter Parker's problems. It's a demonstration that Peter Parker is maintaining a very tenuous balance. All the things Otto does as Superior Spider-Man ultimately unravel, and he has to ask Peter Parker to fix them. "Not wasting himself away patrolling" creates a surveillance police state with spider-man as the semi-benevolent dictator. Otto kills an enemy combatant. The business he founds as Peter Parker winds up spinning out of control and being a disaster. The only long term lasting impact from this time is the diploma.
Further, I think there's a strong way to interpret that based on all the other symbiotes, Venom's time with Parker changes that particular symbiote's moral / ethical compass as none of the rest of them even rise to the level of begrudging anti-hero instead preferring to do just so very much murder.
@@traviswrigg5158 I mean Otto's only problem was the Green Goblin, he had a great idea of implementing security on all the city, which worked until an evil genius took advantage of it.
Parker Industries only failed because when Peter came back he neglected the company (as he does with everything in his life), and Otto preferred watching it burn to the ground than let Peter keep it (which wasn't cool of Peter, like not even his company).
At the end, it's not that Peter could do a better job than Otto. But Otto realized Peter had more heart than him and that's what the city truly needed. Cause at their best, Otto is better and more efficient, but at their worst, Peter is still a hero while Otto would prioritize his own well-being.
Cause if you see it logically, having a whole system to protect the city rather than one man seems like it would prevent a lot more of Uncle Ben's. (The whole "the spider bots were hacked" felt kinda cheap).
@@traviswrigg5158 On the subject of symbiotes. It's hard to tell, I would disagree on Peter being the one that gave Venom a moral compass. The reasons we haven't seen other Symbiotes turn to good is because:
A) They had a crazy host or were birthed by Carnage, who has a crazy host. B) Were quite literally just born out of experiments, which leads to immature symbiotes that aren't fully developed. C) Were influenced by Knull.
If anything it was Flash and Brock that healed Venom from all the damage Peter gave him. Because they actually look at their issues and address them rather than avoid or denying them like Peter.
I really disagree with the idea that Peter is only Spider-Man out of obligation. Sure that's some part of it cause he feels guilty about Uncle Ben and all but if that was literally his only motivation he would be a really shallow character. Peter at his core absolutely has a sense of justice and a good heart he keeps going on as Spider-Man because he knows its the right thing to do and he wants to help people. He laments his position sometimes because it does make his life harder but that doesn't mean he completely disdains being Spider-Man.
@@koifish835 The thing is, Peter IS a good guy, he just doesn't really like being Spider-Man all that much. The way he goes on being a hero is self-destructive, he'll always try to save as many people as his body allows. This is why he doesn't have a work/life balance while other heroes do.
The whole “great power, great responsibility” can be seen as a curse sometimes, which is why Peter has considered giving up his powers more than once. He has famously given up on being Spider-Man and only came back when he saw the effects of him “not fulfilling his responsibility”.
On the Ultimate universe, he pretty much retired, since Miles could fulfill his role and for once felt comfortable not being Spider-Man.
Again, he is a good person and wants to help people, just not as Spider-Man, but he realizes that being Spider-Man is the best way he can help people.
The Universe where Peter is the happiest is the one where he isn't Spider-Man and is helping people with his science.
Because the way he goes on being Spider-Man doesn't just interfere with his life, being Spider-Man is his whole life. He wishes he could just settle down, be with family, be with friends, have a stable relationship, not starve and progress in his career, but he values helping people more than his own well-being.
Which, at the end of the day, is the reason we love Spider-Man. There isn't much to being a hero if you aren't sacrificing something, and for Peter, he pretty much gives everything.
What's scary is that not only does the suit put thoughts into Peter's head but it also blocks out information to protect itself. That's why Peter didn't notice its weaknesses to sound at first.
The story behind that weakness is insane
I think one of my favorite aspects of Spidey and Venom that's only lightly alluded to here is how, in many adaptations, the relationship between them is portrayed as a toxic, abusive one. The symbiote brings the absolute worst parts of Peter out of himself, encouraging and enabling his awful behavior, while refusing to let Peter escape the situation. When Peter is finally able to fight and claw his way to freedom from the symbiote's control, it becomes *obsessed* with Spidey, making it its mission to absolutely ruin Peter's life for rejecting it, until Peter gives in and takes it back. That's something that was kinda ignored in the video: Venom doesn't take the form and powers of Spider-Man because that is what it knows, but because it is so single-mindedly obsessed with Spider-Man and regaining control over him. It's also mirrored a bit in how, while using Eddie Brock as a tool to get back at Parker, Brock becomes obsessed with the symbiote in turn, his sole focus on regaining it when it leaves or is taken from him.
Obviously toxic and abusive relationships are awful (which I've experienced myself) but the way it's handled between Spidey and Venom really nails down how fucked up their relationship is, even if you don't consciously interpret their relationship that way.
venom pulled a spider-man 3 diner dance scene on peter as karma
What a strange love triangle they have
When you look at it that way it's almost like an allegory to the power of addiction to drugs/alcohol. The symbiote gives him the power to overcome his issues but makes him a worse person because of it. It makes everything feel so much easier but also brings out the worst in him and makes him feel exhausted afterwards/when he isn't using it. It takes a near miss of Peter almost breaking his most important moral code to fight back and even then it chases him and wants him to kill him or for him to take it back which would likely lead to him committing even worse atrocities
@@taylorsackett2556 There's definitely some portrayals that try to lean into that, particularly if they show Peter feeling euphoric from the sheer power of the symbiote
The symbiote is so obsessed with him, it’s damn near Freudian. Like it’s a classic case of displacement (it pushes the self-doubt and heartbreak it feels onto Spider-Man and Eddie) and projection (it calls Spider-Man a monster for betraying its trust even though it has done that to him).
I still like Spider-Man 3's use of the Venom Symbiote all these years later. The symbiote is very much a nod to addiction. It consumes who you are, takes the parts of yourself you may ashamed of and makes it worse. As a former addict and whose brother and uncle were addicts, it really speaks to me. Aunt May did put it well that it turns you into something ugly, though not irredeemable, as we see with Peter.
and it is very impressive Reimi was able to execute that, knowing he never planned to add Venom in the movie and only did so due to corporate meddling to bring the hype. Back then he didn't find Venom interesting due to the comic issues back then portraying him as one dimensionally boring, and yet when forced to have him in the movie, he still make good use of him
Wether it be he’s just tired in the comics or gets a high from it or get angry in everything else, there was and is a perfect allegory for drug abuse and addiction and Sam took it. Just that I wish it was in a better movie even if I like SM3. Hopefully they’ll try it again some time
Honestly, Spectacular Spidermen, especially in the scene where he gets rid of it reminds me of an abusive relationship
“Oh, your whole life was awful and terrible before you met me. I'm the only thing that gives you meaning, you’re nothing without me,” you know, that type of vibe
That's exactly what the 90s series did
When referencing addiction, many people compare the symbiote to the drug. However, if we flip the perspective, Spider-Man’s body is the drug for the symbiote. It has a rudimentary sense of emotion; all it knows is that it feels good with it’s with him. The symbiote wants to remain with him no matter what, even if it hurts him.
If it wasn't for Symbiote Spider Saga we wouldn't get one of the best lines in super hero cartoons.
"SHOCKER! YOU CAN'T ESCAPE ME! I'LL CHASE YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH!"
Just looked it up. Great line read, I still think it's more effective when the Symbiote is silent.
@@timothymcleanthat was all Peter
@@Gloomdrakeit's probably a reference to that one comic where Symbiote Peter kicks everyone's ass while he is asleep.
@@Catterjeeo maybe, but Peter was awake during hat scene in the cartoon
Shocker: Oh SH!T!!! 😬
I have actually always wanted to see a story where Peter makes peace with the symbiote and keeps it. Not for canon events, but a nice change of pace.
This probably isn't quite what you're asking for (because of the dark tone), but there is a miniseries called "Spider's Shadow", which asks the question "What if Spider-Man kept the Symbiote?"
That's actually what I want to do for my Spidersona story
Venom very often ends up as an Anti-Hero more than a villain.
I don't find it unreasonable that a version of spiderman could somewhat tame Venom and keep him as a sort of ally/power boost as he needs it.
Haven't read it myself, but another commenter pointed out that Sipder-Gwen is just that in the comics, apparently.
@@CrazyRiverOtter very well written arc (probably the last good arc she has had, would definitely recommend reading it
I introduced my wife to all of the Spider-Man films in preparation for No Way Home. Raim was her favorite version, 3 was unironically her favorite film. She enjoyed that the Raimi films were the campiest and "least embarrassed about being a superhero movie", and so because of that, she thought the silliest one in the trilogy was the strongest.
Embracing the camp was just one step away from embracing the edge, apparently.
I completely agree that a lot of superhero movies, in the MCU in particular, almost feels embarassed of what it is. It uses self aware humor to deflect scrutiny. That's why the MCU movies that played it more straight and wasn't afraid of sincerity (and least tried to mimick Joss Whedon) are almost all the MCU movies that will stand the test of time on their own individual merits.
I love the idea of a Spider-Man adaptation having the Symbiote show up in the immediate aftermath of the death of Gwen Stacey.
So he’s carrying around this uncomfortable, draining thing that affects his behaviour, making him angrier, more impulsive and more self-destructive, giving him a bleaker outlook and making him push away the people who care about him/are concerned about him… essentially, having the symbiote act as a metaphor for his grief.
So a hypothetical third Andrew Garfield film?
@@noahmeyer9756yeah I like the implication Andrews spider-man went as far as a venom influenced spider-man without a symbiote influencing him. But if they did do a 3rd movie it would have been interesting to discuss the dangerous coping mechanisms people go towards when dealing with grief. Andrew leaning on venom because it makes him not care and let's him "focus on the important things" aka fighting crime. Alcoholism is a common pit fall because it helps some people feel numb. Symbiote post Gwen Stacy's death is a great metaphor for that. It would have been cool to see with any spider-man version.
I feel like the story often works best when it's used as a metaphor for depression or addiction. The original comics didn't do this, obviously, because it wasn't really planned (although Web of Spider-Man #1 can maybe work as a depressive episode). Spider-Man 3 obviously uses the resurfacing of Uncle Ben's killer as a catalyst for Peter to go dark. TAS and Spectacular don't have such specific reasons -- although Spectacular does use Aunt May's hospitalization, and the money problems that come with it, to push Peter into the darkest part of his arc -- but they both benefit from coming toward the end of their first seasons, making it just feel like a natural build-up from all the shit that Peter deals with on a regular basis.
Without getting into any deep spoilers, this is also something I feel is a little bit missing from the new game (which is regardless excellent). They do a great job characterizing him with the suit, but there isn't really a clear reason for him to "turn" cruel if the symbiote were not a part of the situation. Heck, his life is kinda the best it's ever been.
Granted, depression/addiction aren't always tied to clear reasons, especially addiction and I think the game plays a little more strongly into that aspect of the story. It's not a major criticism, just something I felt could've been leaned into a bit more.
@@davidbjacobs3598 yeah we played the new one too. And no spoilers! But we were joking in the beginning about this Peter not having a reason to need symbiote at first. The whole point is to give peter the extra power boost to beat villains he can't beat on his own. But this peter isn't alone. He has miles now and so has that back up for stronger villains.
I enjoyed what they did with symbiote peter. But it did feel like they rushed over him deciding to keep it and reasons for why he might feel like he needs it. Like it is heightening his anxiety about losing aunt may in the previous game, but none of the external threats felt like something Peter and Miles couldn't have beaten together.
Yes those 2 fit together very well.
But I do think secret wars fits really well inbetween too
Imagine Peter loses his girlfriend, and then vanishes for a month, than comes back acting all weird and violent, always wearing black and pushing away his loved ones.
Going into a space war would really prevent him from processing his grief.
The actual best way to write spiderman’s canon events:
“-black suit spiderman
-Gwen Stacy breaks her neck
-Spiderman lifts the heavy thing”
4:13
I did think it was weird that “cop dies” is now of a through line than “loved one dies”
Like Miguel doesn’t have that. Most spider men don’t have that moment
I’d swap those first two around. But that’s just me
@@creed8712my headcanon is that Miguel pulled that one out of his ass.
Most Spidermen loose either a loved one or a cop, but Miguel needed it to be one or the other, so he just picked one
Some spider-people might argue that the list should be longer, but those are the three pillars.
@@creed8712 I don't think it was meant as "this is the main canon event", it was just the specific example that miles disrupted.
My favorite explanation for Spider-man's loss of powers in the second movie is that it's a result of PTSD. The self-care through the middle of the movie helps him recover and the danger to someone close to him is the impetus for him to finally move past the trauma of the first movie.
You saw that Film Theory episode too huh?
Honestly, I think MJ being the catalyst works. Like, it’s not the heroic ideal to be more motivated to act when someone you personally care for is in danger, but it’s human. Plus, it sells the point that things are not better without Spider-Man since ultimately those he cares about aren’t better off if he’s less able to act.
Well a support network is important for post traumatic growth and having someone you can be vulnerable around helps though I do think the whole community being his support network is a kind of theme as well.
My problem was that these are physiological changes to his body, PTSD doesn’t change eyesight or your strength.
Tbh; yeah. Ptsd turns you into a powerless, scared, sad (and possibly child-like) version of yourself. It’s why some people with it get defensively vicious when surprised. Thought one and only one “keep myself safe!” Second thought after “aw sh!t, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it” essentially, they turn into a feral animal (which is a baby who can take care of itself)
I like that, in the recent-ish Venom movie, the symbiote is taught to respect human morality.
Even if he doesn't always do it, it's just a nice thing.
I haven't watched the second Venom movie, but one thing I really like about the first one (for all it's flaws) is how it really gives the symbiote characterization beyond its typical thirst for revenge and obsession with Spider-Man - one might even say it humanizes the symbiote, kind of. In particular, I will never EVER be able to get over Tom Hardy's modulated voice going "EDDIE - IN MY WORLD, I AM ALSO KIND OF A LOSER. LIKE YOU." This changed my perspective on Venom forever and I cannot go back.
Makes me wonder what it would be like if that happened with Peter and the Symbiote
I always tear up at Peter's family and friends standing behind him when he faces the symbiote in his mind, that and Uncle Ben always there to be his moral compass.
Also the line he said. Iirc it was along the lines of "you are an illness and THEY are the cure"
Spectacular Spiderman is soooo good
Hero's with a living parallel or flaw pretty much always end up more interesting for it. The Symbiote tests Peter in an almost infinite amounts of ways, depending on what the writer wants. Similarly, how the hero overcomes it says a lot about them. If you are Peter, you overcome this flaw through determination and Heroism. If you a like Po, you overcome your flaws through improving and learning about yourself. However, if you are someone like Yuji Itadori, you overcome your flaw by turning the flaw on itself.
I do feel a understood part of the Symbiote is frankly that it being a Villain is Peter's own failure. It turning to Villainy is very much similar to Frankensteins monster. It comes to the world without a presumption about what reality is and copies his actions. When he realizes he is alive he cast it out without ever trying to teach it to be better resulting in a really hateful dynamic in a lot of the stories iterations. But it's a thing that's so unavoidable that it's a ignored tragedy.
@@travislyonsgary Yeah, I've always felt a little bad for the symbiote as I always felt like it could have been taught better. It has little to no negative intentions when it bonds with Peter. But like you said, it's unavoidable, to the point where Across The Spiderverse lists it as a canon event.
I'm no hard core comic book reader but I'd like to read a version of the spiderman/symbiote story where Spiderman overcomes the negativity/aggression from the symbiote, but instead of casting it off, teaches the symbiote to be better and they both become better from the experience.
I don't get the last point
@@joevenespineli6389 Have you seen Jujutsu Kaisen?
there is a story about Peter not removing the suit because it's alive, but it ends bad for a lot of people @@nousername191
Wow I’m so jealous of Blue lol. Having parents who support your interests sounds like a blessing. I hope he cherishes them. My mom would have made me feel embarrassed for wanting to wear a costume all the time like that 😅
I do think it's significant that the "joyride" was the symbiote trying to help Peter do his usual hero stuff while he was sleeping. It was trying to help its host without context initially, and was not evil until Eddie corrupted it tbh. I actually hate that the responsibility motif and the foilwork of it between the symbiote, Peter, and Eddie got borked in favor of the much less original evil alien corruption take that's taken over.
Venom, as a symbiote, tends to mirror its host in its original form.
As Spiderman, it wants to do good heroics.
As Eddie, it wants to be meaner(?)
I really like Ultimate Spiderman, the cartoon, and I think that did Venom pretty good as well, for the most part.
Mild Spoilers for a show most people apparently don't like;
The original venom is just a goop that wants to return to its "host" (Spiderman) because it was made by Norman Osborn alongside Doc Ock, but Spiderman doesn't want it and the venom just... Wants to fight? This part is the only part where the symbiote isn't mirroring its user. Who knows, maybe Peter just felt up for a fist fight.
Then it gets Harry Osborn and as a cloak for Harry, the symbiote starts out wanting to be better than Spiderman because he has a lot of issues with Spiderman (his bff Peter Parker is ofc Spiderman, so that's a bit oof).
Then he gets fully taken over and Harry's most suppressed feelings come out and he goes after his father for ignoring him and ever paying proper attention to him. He gets saved eventually and Venom leaves him be.
Then it attaches to Flash Thompson. With Flash, Venom finds a companion that fully accepts it. Flash wants to be a hero LIKE Spiderman, so Venom becomes a suit and through working with Flash, they form a true symbiosis. Venom won't leave Flash, so Flash becomes Agent Venom and they both get to keep going as a collected hero.
There is also the Carnage episode, which I think is really fun, but that's a modified venom, so it doesn't work the same way.
Sorry for the long ramble, I just really enjoy this version of Venom, and Spiderman as a whole :)
@@JDM-is-my-nameHonestly, while I never watched the full series for various reasons, Flash bonded with Venom is my favorite thing from the series by far. He becomes a personification of the tough jock who got a quality role model and turns into what I like to describe as "a himbo with a heart of gold."
@@rayhatesu this is very true :) I on general enjoyed Flash's ack throughout the series :)
Also, I choose to forget season 4 because I really didn't like it, lol, so I also didn't technically finish the series.
My personal favourite thing was Peter and him being allowed to be a stupid kid who steps up, yet continues to be a stupid teen. I also love his relationships with everyone in his life. Season 1, episode 3 was very emotional to me :)
Yeah in general I feel sad about the Symbiote becoming a Villain as it actually is a really good showcase where Peter didn't actually live up to the power and responsibility motto to mitigate a Villain by just teaching them. Kind of reminds me of the times where the animated Flash didn't just punch a Villain but actually took time to set them down and talk things out. It's a theme spiderman actually has a lot in helping other normal people in New York, and. Venom is a bit sad since it's a case of him not living out that type of principle to other cases.
You enjoy it for the same reasons I can't. The original comics show the symbiote to be its own character, albeit alien and fumbling the bag in its confusion when thrown into circumstances it can't understand as a newcomer. It scolds Eddie for harassing MJ, and consistently is the confused angel on Eddie's shoulder until Eddie destroys its sense of morals by being its only support on planet Earth. Unfortunately, now it's been rendered an accessory to any human character development and a spiffy costume change. Ironically, it ended up being written to be more like what Eddie does to the Symbiote. In doing this it completely distorts the original contrast of what it means to have responsibility. Even Peter admits to having messed up the Symbiote situation but now all that has to be reeled back to make the Symbiote just boring and evil so woobie Peter can be innocent.
1:23:17 you missed a huge detail: the thing that finally makes Peter go "Oh shit, I need to get this off NOW" comes after an internal monologue where he remembers everything the symbiote influenced him to do, wonders why he did those things, and finally notices the use of "we." Then the Symbiote goes all, "but the suit has made life easier. We don't need anyone." Then Peter says, "Not even Aunt May? Those weren't my thoughts!" It's Aunt May that ultimately turned the tide in the first phase of the mental battle (before the cocoon).
The fact that Peter/Spiderman is constantly holding back, World of Cardboard style, is something that I think people both in and out of universe either don't realize or forget. The Symbiote arc is one of those moments where he lets loose and reminds people that that kindness and restraint is for Your benefit, not his. Superior Spiderman punching Scorpion's jaw clean off is another reminder, though in a different form.
I haven't seen Spiderman 3, but that context of how dickish Raimi-Spidey got adds some interesting context to him stopping MCU-Spidey from killing the Goblin. It's not just that this was his first villain, but also he's been that far down in his grief and rage, and doesn't want this kid to go down that path.
The fact that despite what a mess Spiderman 3 turned out to be, there's still a coherent storyline with the symbiote and Peter's downward spiral is proof that Raimi's skill as a director is too powerful, even nerfed like this.
I saw him saving Green Goblin as being him indirectly saving Harry, too. He even mentions having his best friend try to kill him and end up dying, and iirc he's the one with the formula to reverse Green Goblin's condition because he'd been ruminating for years on how he might have been able to do things differently.
Holding back is why Vergil remains king of UMVC3 Parker. Why do you refuse to use your power. The power gifted to you from that special spider
I’m pretty surprised by the Spider-man 2 take because I saw the turn as Peter realizing the only way he could be Peter and Spidey was the support of others: Aunt May when she gives the speech about how Spidey inspired the neighbor child, the New Yorkers on the subway after the iconic moment, and yes Mary Jane. And at the end of the movie, MJ practically says this verbatim when she says it is wrong for either of them to not be their whole true selves out of duty and that he needs someone to take care of him too. Yes, it ends on with romantic support and partnership, but before that he had reconciled with his aunt (family support) as Peter and his fellow New Yorkers (community support) as Spidey.
This is why it’s annoying when people say Peter should work alone
@@pn2294I assume you mean "annoying"?
And I totally agree, having Peter choose to work alone works well, especially because it's often spelled out to us that Peter and do a LOT of stuff on his own, but he needs friends, he need his family and support.
I love when Peter works alone on occasion, because it works really well, but mostly Peter needs people because at the end of the day, he is just a person
@@JDM-is-my-name dangit
Well that was embarrassing
@@pn2294 it's totally OK :) autocorrect is a bitch sometimes
It helps that during the train sequence his identity gets exposed. Peter's struggle is with juggling his life as Peter Parker and as Spider-man, as if they are two separate lives he switches back and forth between, but in that sequence it's made clear that both are the same. He tries to save people while looking like Peter, cause he doesn't save them out of obligation. It's who he is. And the New Yorkers in turn protect him, not because he's a superhero who saved them, but because they recognize him as one of their own. To diminish that entire last third to just "i have to save my girlfriend" is just actively ignoring the arc at that point.
Crazy how every interpretation of the Symbiote’s origin follows more of the 90s cartoon over the secret wars origin.
I guess that shows just how much impact the 90's cartoon had.
It has a better ethical schew as well as makes it a more thematic antagonist
Because it works much better in standalone, as pointed out in the diatribe.
Something beyond the scope of the Diatribe is Marvel was in major trouble in the 80s (killed many neighborhood comic shops), and their new owner Ron Perelman took them public in the 90s. And started doing even more desperate things for revenue. Which is why Sony got Film rights, but to all of Marvel that would make Secret Wars work. So the Standalone telling from the 90s cartoon was preferable, and helps recement that telling in 2007.
Now, if Disney doesn't drop the MCU, which may happen (Disney is in trouble below the surface), it is possible to do a Secret Wars origin for an MCU Symbiote Spider-Man.
@@travislyonsgaryindeed. Totally in agreement.
Well, Secret Wars was always a toy advertisement so Mattel could sell action figures. Even the name was chosen because the items with "war" or "secret" in the names sold the best.
I LOVE possession type tropes like the Symbiote.
More power, more confidence that makes all who hate you tremble
Yet it comes at great costs like losing one's sanity and even pushing loved ones away because of your new power
The coldest moment of the Symbiote Arc in Spectacular Spider-Man is during the Central Park fight but it’s very subtle.
Not only is Spider-Man mute for the whole fight as you said but the Symbiote has clearly learned how it’s host taunts enemies to make them make mistakes.
In this case mid-fight just as the Symbiote is getting the upper hand it literally makes the “come on” hand gesture to Rhino which makes Rhino lose it and yell “ALRIGHT! THATS IT!!”
So chilling seeing that the Symbiote has been learning..
Oh, nice observation. I'd like this comment to be more noticed, so I'm replying to boost it in the algorithm...
This is also why I like Venom so much as a villain, because its not just Eddie’s hatred for Parker and Spider Man, it’s also the Symbiote’s anger at being cast away. The Black Suit arc leading to the creation of Venom is such a clean narrative throughline.
"Spider-Man 3 took a lot of flack - it was a bigger, more convoluted story with maybe one too many villains, and it went a bit dark for some. Still, for me, it's hard to put in words how delighted I was to watch Sam (Raimi), my boyhood buddy and filmmaking fraternal brother, direct one of the most successful movie franchises in history.
There were superhero movies before Spider-Man, but Sam's series truly set that particular genre in motion for decades to come. I'm not a film historian, but I sense that Spider-Man also represents a turning of the tide, or taste, where even A-list movies are now B-movies conceptually. Believe me, if your hero is bitten by a radioactive spider and starts webslinging from buildings, that's not only a B-movie - that's a 1950s B-movie. I'm just happy that genre fare is no longer frowned upon in the world of entertainment, and that we're finally seeing how popular fantasy, horror and sci-fi stories really are."
- Bruce Campbell, Hall to the Chin.
Dam, that's a great quote
@@SolidLink64 - Bruce Campbell's memoirs, If Chins Could Kill and Hail to the Chin, are both must reads/listens - so many stories from his time in the B-movie trenches. Definitely seek them out if you wanna learn more about his time on the sets of these films and many others.
@SolidLink64 - also, outside of being just a great raconteur, Bruce has known Sam since high school and thus loves him like a brother but also will roast him to the ground without prejudice.
One of my favourite Raimi Campbell stories is from the set of The Quick and The Dead. Bruce visited the set and got pressganged into being in the film...
SR: (sees Bruce) Hey, you! Come here, you! I'm gonna put you in this film!
BC: Aww, no, Sam, that's okay, I just wanna--
SR: Shutupshutup, come here with me!
Bruce is dragged into costume hair and makeup...
SR: (to costumer) Okay, gals, I want you make this guy look like a loser, see - like, he used to be rich but now he's a nobody! Make the clothes dirty and rotting a little.
BC: Sam, I--
SR: Shaddup! (to makeup artist) Okay, gals, I want you to make this guy look like a bum, like he's got some horrible disease - give him a sore on his lip and everything!
BC: Sam, I really just--
SR: Shaddup, it'll be great! See you out there.
Later, onset with legendary character actor Pat Hingle, who had been pestering Sam to come up with a scene where he gets revenge on the pimp who sold his daughter...
SR: (to Pat Hingle) Okay, Pat, this guy is gonna come up to your daughter and say, "Come on, girly girl, you and me are gonna do the devil's dance!"
BC: I am?
SR: (to Bruce) Quiet, mister! (to Pat) Now you see this happening, and before this terrible guy can do anything, you jump in there, and save your daughter!
PH: So I should rough him up a little?
SR: A little?! Hell, you'd be pissed! Don't worry about this guy - he's like a stuntman. You can do anything you want to him. I think you should choke him, actually.
PH: Maybe throw an arm around his throat from behind.
SR: Yeah, that'd be great! Then you throw him on the ground and kick him one last time in the ass!
PH: Okay, sounds good, Sam!
BC: Uh, Sam, can I ask a question? What direction am I coming from? Should I come from this way or--?
SR: _OH, so Bruce has questions(!) Let's all stand around and answer all of Bruce's questions to his satisfaction(!)_
BC: Well--
SR: You'll stand where I tell you to stand, mister! You'll say what I tell you to say, you'll do what I tell you to do!
BC: Sure, Sam, whatever.
Several takes of Bruce getting roughed up later, Pat Hingle walks off satisfied and Sam whispers conspiratorially to Bruce...
SR: Hey, thanks for your help, buddy. That scene will never see the light of day.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@radicaladzBruce Campbell confirmed wholesome chad.
@s.p.d.magentaranger1822 - by his own admission, that whole public image of him is largely accidental, and generally speaking an affectation that runs counter to his own personality; he's the first to admit that he was terrible with women until well into his 20s.
The moment Red acknowledges, "your Reboot" is potentially the most beautiful moment in OSP history. Don't ask why. Don't ask me to defend this. I just know what warm and fuzzy is. It's this!
Considering how much she loves Reboot, I totally get it. It's a moment of clarity where she understands how much he loves something by comparing it to the feelings she has for something similar, and _gets it._
Love Spider-Man and love your talking about him. Shame what the authors are doing to him. Peter deserves a happy ending after everything they did to that man.
Paul is
That's honestly the other reason I don't get into American comics. I've seen Spidey being the writer's punching bag get lampooned for years now.
People always talk about how a hero needs to not be invincible, have flaws and struggle from time to time. It's just funny that Spider-Man's current comic run is an example of how that concept can look when taken to the extreme that it circles back to being a negative.
@@leithaziz2716issue is it undid a lot of popular developments. Peter I feel has a journey, and people wanted to see where it went. Not go back to the beginning.
@@georgethompson913 *laughs in 90s Clone Saga and One More Day but cries actually because stop hurting my poor boy Pete*
The Symbiote era is probably the best "in over my head" story I knew growing up. The extremely intimate nature of it makes me think of the obvious abusive relationship parallel, but also things like getting sucked into a cult or suddenly realizing your circle of friends is a pack of violent assholes and you are also, even if only by association. It's that realization that you're in too deep to get out unscathed, wondering if you can extricate yourself at all. Truly terrifying
I hope you're okay...
My favorite part on spectacular spider man, is when peter with the symbiote says that they dont need no one, even aunt may. This is were peter breaks
I've had a friendgroup full of jackasses before and now that you bring it up, I can absolutely see the connection. You see the problems, but you also see how difficult it is to get out. It took me a while to build up the courage to abandon them, and it does feel like Peter throwing away the suit but then coming right back to it up until he does for good
On the power level of Venom with Brock, there's an ongoing debate (that I believe has waffled within continuity some times) that this is still BECAUSE of Eddie. When the suit makes Peter more of a dick, it's not incidental, but that those are the specific feelings it feeds on. That pettiness, anger, spite, it RUNS on those psychic waves.
And part of the bond with Eddie is that he is a MUCH BETTER FOOD SOURCE. He is so unwaveringly negative, even on his GOOD days, he's basically feeding the symbiote steroids. But part of what keeps the symbiote wanting to get back to Peter is that it actually liked being *kinda* good.
Which is why I would love to see the symbiote get a turn on Kaine Parker, just for the total hilarity that would cause.
Who, by the way, would represent the "Fifth Beatle" storyline of Spidey: All the Damn Clones.
I wonder how would that work given the many changes Venom has had after a while (like the whole "King in Black" thing, or Venom bonding with Eddie's son).
@@ianr.navahuber2195 There's been so much going on, it's hard to tell. Eddie seems in a much better place. The time spent with Flash probably mellowed the symbiote out some.
And after King in Black, all bets are off. I think Venom is technically a god now. Might actually be kinda fun to have the symbiote divvy itself up so we get 3-4 copies all running around. All technically Venom, all working with different hosts and expressing different aspects of the character.
Eddie hates is like Symbiote having Steriods lmfao would explain how it increases its size but that it likes being good makes sense for venom arc being a Protecter and even when the Symbiote takes over Peter it still trys to do the right thing and whenever make its host life better that's why in spectacular it went to the stop then sinister six so next day Peter could rest really fits in well
It's interesting to think an agreement could be reached between the two. Similar to the stuff with gwen. I kinda want to see a version of Peter where this happens.
@lastmanstanding7155 Alternate universe where the other symbiotes are tipped off early.
Symbiote Venom decides to gamble and just reveals itself to Peter and explains the problem after seeing Peter decide to help a villain who was genuinely put in a bad spot.
Peter figures out a way to make "food" for Venom, works with Doc Strange or Iron Fist to sharpen his mind to be able to handle Venom if it gets antsy. They go on to become good friends. It becomes utterly infuriating to the villains because Venom picks up the wise cracking habit, so now they're getting roasted by TWO smartasses.
Because of this, Carnage is never born. Instead, the spawn is something closer to Toxin. MJ bonds with this one. They proceed to fight crime as a married couple.
When they have Mayday, they quickly realize she's just part symbiote.
Can I just take a moment to personally thank Blue for his videos on the Mycenaeans and the Minoans? I just took my World Civ I midterm and thankfully the last section was about Ancient Greece, like REALLY Ancient Greece. The questions were about the Minoans and the Mycenaeans respectively. It was so easy to recall the information from lecture because I associated the information with key points in Blue’s videos. It also helped because Blue made me more interested in researching these Ancient Greek societies, something I never thought I’d ever do in my free time. So from Me to Blue, thank you so much
Loved the Spectacular Spider-Man episode in which the symbiote takes control of Peter while he is sleeping and single-handedly puts some dirt in the Sinister Six's eyes like a total badass. Bully Maguire power at its finest, fellas!
😎👈👉
Spectacular Spider Man has the best symbiote arc
@@jaredknight8838 The three parter in Spider-Man TAS is better IMO. Peter almost zeroes Rhino by smashing him with a giant metallic door and it's a genuinely scary and serious scene, especially for a cartoon that had such notorious problems with violence censorship. And when it comes time to do a "menacing, scary, evil voice", Christopher Daniel Barnes just hams it up to eleven and it's freaking perfect. Then there's Hank Azaria, who absolutely kills it as Eddie Brock. He's incredibly creepy when he becomes Venom in Part III. The whole thing is just awesome.
Overrated and underhated.
@@madsgrams2069 The problem I have with the TAS symbiote is that it comes across as if the Symbiote is mostly responsible for Peter's actions? It's more explicitly an evil power up that's possessing Peter. When the Symbiote/Black Suit, to me, is at it's most intriguing when it taps into existing frustrations and flaws Peter already had. If Peter had shown to be struggling with anger prior to the arc, maybe it would've hit better? But it does fall short to me in that aspect.
Whereas Spectacular Spiderman explicitly makes Peter more selfish rather than just violent. it taps into his already existing frustrations about his wages, his friend group, and the lack of recognition he gets as Spiderman.
I do agree that TAS Venom > Spectacular Venom though. Hank's voice is way more menacing and his rivalry with Peter, I feel, was much better executed than Eddie's more big brother relationship with Peter.
@@Birthday888 I feel like your problem with this arc is more an incongruence between expectation and reality than between intention and execution. The screenplay never intended that in the first place. The symbiote was always meant to be a malevolent force that entices Peter with power that is intoxicating...like a drug. And what do psychedelic drugs do, even in real life? Yeah...they twist someone's personality, basically make them a monster, even if they were previously a sweet-heart. It's not a Clark with red kyprotonyte kind of thing. It's like Peter says in Part II: "if the symbiote almost drove me nuts, I can't even imagine what it's doing to a pumped-up lunatic like Brock". It's why the very cheesy and campy scream he does when he's chasing Shocker, that line that is borderline ridiculous works so well: because it highlights what a lovable nerdy dude, like Peter is at heart, turns into when trying to be a "cool, tough guy" because that's the perception someone like him would have of being so. Raimi tried to do a similar thing in Spider-Man 3, but the cringy dance scenes were...just too much.
I hope Peter's corruption in the game is nuanced. I don't want him to become cruel and merciless the minute he gets the Symbiote. It should be gradual like Otto's turn to villainy.
Well, we know that they can do gradual turns to villainy so likely it’ll be well done.
Now this would be a great reason to integrate one of those karma systems, unlocking the suit powers speeds up the arc
@@shadowmaster1313Now THAT would be interesting and different from how they've handled the black suit in past games (either as part of the story with slight gameplay changes or as leading to binary choices, in Web of Shadows), it would add an RPG element to the game *and* story
He should just lose himself to power, like he consciously decides that the power he gains is allowing him to save more people even if it comes at great personal cost because he misinterprets the meaning of "great power, great responsibility" and believes that he is obligated to use it
@@shadowmaster1313
Arcane's 2017 immersive sim _Prey_ had something like that, the more eldritch alien DNA (also black goop corrupters from space) you spliced into your own, the more dope powers you got, but it also in every way made you less human.
It would be cool if it was like the METRO games, where the ending changes depending, obviously, but the karma system itself is completely hidden from the player.
Something I will say about the Spectacular Sinister Six fight is that Peter goes to bed saying “I wish I could just go to sleep and wake up with the six in jail”
And then when he wakes up, the suit did that.
Even in the Spectacularverse it’s clear that the Symbiote isn’t a downright evil entity it’s just got a skewed moral compass. It WANTS to help Peter accomplish his goal it just doesn’t understand things like connections to other people.
At least that’s my oversimplification
I think that’s a fantastic observation
@@autobotproductions1244 thank you 😊
Something a lot of people miss and it's frankly my favorite part of the symbiote as a character and it's a concept is that never once was it trying to hurt Peter. It was truly trying to make Peter what it believed to be the best version himself (themselves) and it even to an extent shows us this amount of care to Eddie. I guess I always felt bad for the symbiote.
I understand where you come. I feel like less of there either fault and more
Of
The symbiote can be good but spiderman is bit strick with his code to teach it right, he's fine but it needed teacher that was fine with outburst and that's not Peter
The symbiote have a good heart, but the problem is that all it heart was on peter, when peter broke it heart, the symbiote broke too
Red is just a fun mood for this diatribe.
9:18 Fans adjust to Symbiote Spiderman
12:48 Red's impressed
13:16 McGuffin Resource
16:01 Red's impressed x2
17:26 😂
20:54 Red has a joke in the chamber
25:21 "God damn it."
35:33 Red's Sus detector
36:00 Red goes off on SM3
39:31 Sinister
42:08 Red's Fun
43:38 SM^3
43:56 Weeeeeee
46:35 Uh-Huh x2
Blue-isms
16:10 OwO
19:00 He said it, he said the thing!
45:13 Gulf
Bonus: 35:00 Aha - Mhm - Mhm - Laughter
Also, at 52:37 - Its hilarious and I don't even know how to start describing it
16:10 not just any OwO, he full on said "OwO whats this?"
elaborating on the point of Peter always getting back up from his lowest point, i love how that continues even onto Venom. it’s such a core part of peter that even Venom, the dark specter of peter’s past, get to pull themselves out of the darkness and they become heroes in their own right.
Do not say you've been doing detail diatribes for two years. I'm not ready for that passage of time.
I do somewhat like the comic through-line that the symbiote isn't actually evil, it's just that it's been exposed to so much negative emotions and thoughts that it's basically driven it insane.
Yeah it makes me feel bad for it honestly
Can we get a sequel to this about Insomniac Spider-Man 2's black suit arc? Because holy shit, I love so much about it. It revisits some old hits of previous black suit arcs with new twists, excellently utilizes the fact that Peter isn't the only Spider-Man in this universe, and takes advantage of its status as a video game to enhance so many moments through the gameplay.
The sequence where you play MJ fleeing from symbiote!Peter was on par with horror games.
I love how the symbiote kinda gets worse and worse cause of the motives of its hosts. They make a point that the symbiote brings the hosts issues to the forefront. At first Harry just wants to keep living, so his personality isn’t effected, he just stays alive. I don’t think the symbiote likes only being used as life support, so it moves on to Peter, who wants to be a better Spider-Man, and the symbiote uses this desire and the guilt over not saving Aunt May to make Peter think being a better Spider-Man means being super violent and not caring about Miles and MJ.
The Lizard boss fight does this beautifully. Peter tries to talk Connors down, but then he gets frustrated and he’s just tearing into Connors and saying his family was right to leave him after he turned into the Lizard. And you get this horrible sense that this is not our Peter that we’ve spent 2 and half games with.
And then when Harry gets it back, he’s incredibly bitter about dying, and the symbiote uses this and Harry’s natural altruism to convince him that assimilating the planet is a solution. I love how the symbiote always twists what the host wants instead of just “you’re more aggressive and irritable”
Well this was perfectly timed
Yessirr
What happened now? Did he throw Paul off a bridge?
Yes it is. Super awesome
Lol
What do you mean? I've been under a rock regarding Superhero films getting announced or released.
MJ getting accidentally hit in the middle of a scuffle means even more because we know how strong Peter is when he stops holding back. It’s bad enough that he hit someone he didn’t mean to, if he hits someone with more force than he meant to it’s going to end really badly.
Additionally, Red’s giggles at making Peter “act unwise” were great
In regards to Spider-Man 3, I feel like Symbiote wasn't really all that evil or murderous. He amplifies the user, even emotionally and he latches on both Peter and Brock during time of immense emotional distress where they fight their hate against a certain person. It just makes Peter's rage boil over his restraints and enables Brock to actually do what he wants.
peter needed to control his power, the symbiote was a dt he wasn't ready for.
@@redline841dt as in devil trigger? Like in devil may cry?
@@rayyanfahmi7349
Spiderman didn't have Nero to help him out, so now he has to live being low mid tier im UMVC3. Meanwhile the guy who would make the symbiote his personal doppelganger is top tier
According to Dr Connors in the movie it especially amplified aggression, if I remember correctly. That sounds pretty bad. Only in a very literal sense it isn't "evil" because it doesn't seem sentient, but it still drove someone as chill and kind as Peter to hurt innocents and people he cared for and who knows how bad it could've gotten with more time.
@@redline841 Nero? You mean the dead weight?
The Symbiote also gives off vibes of being an allegory for drugs and addiction.
I mean, it gives Peter extra powers, nulls his inhibitions, and getting rid of it looks like an extreme version of withdrawal. Could be a decent way to explain addiction to teenagers.
Ooh! The parallel of Peter AND the Symbiote having "revenge bodies" that are actual people?!?!
As a huge spiderman fan, the way blue talks about him made me so happy
As someone who never really got into Spiderman, Blue's enthusiasm is infectious.
Funny enough, the concept for the black suit (which was made by a fan) was originally just a man-made suit with “unstable molecules”, like Reed Richards just had the materials and free time to improve it, Spider-Man's webs, and build a wingsuit-like web glider. He only dumped it because it sacred people and the webs controls were neuro-based, which messed with his muscle-memory.
The suit would also have a red symbol, which I think is weird since blue/purple looks cool on Venom, even if those colors were traditionally used to just help give dynamic lighting for black costumes, making fans debate on its actual color (cough cough Spider-Man 2099).
Also:
Sony's Marvel's Insomniac's Presents: Spider-Man 2: The Standard Edition: Includes Spider-Man: Miles Morales: The Ultimate Edition: Includes Sony's Marvel's Insomniac's Presents: Spider-Man: Created by the developers behind Sony's Marvel's Insomniac's Presents: Spider-Man: Created by the developers behind Sunset Overdrive (PS4) (2018): Featuring Dante from Devil May Cry: Now with VR Compatibility (PS5) (2023)
I feel the best way for the symbiote to interact with Peter is to have it bond with him after a tragedy. Peter is going through so much at a moment in time and isn't able to deal with them while being Spider-Man. The symbiote bonds with him and all that sorrow and grief becomes anger and fury.
Now I’m sad that we never got a third Andrew Garfield movie because that would have been perfect. He’s still reeling from Gwen’s death and put those feelings on the back burner because NYC needs Spider-Man, and now comes this entity with the promise of making that pain go away and never let it happen to him again.
90s Venom is my favorite Venom adaptation. Not only a great design, but the actions Eddie does is legit creepy. He stalks Mary Jane, tries to invite himself into Aunt Mays home. Kinda remarkable how no other adaptation has really explored the whole stalker/invader perspective
I think that's straight from the comics, if I'm not mistaken. I think Mary Jane hates the Symbiote Suit as a result of Venom popping up at Peter's house to scare her in his first appearance.
Man it has been literal years since I've seen or heard anyone talk about the 90s Spiderman and how insane (and insanely GOOD) it was. Thanks for bringing back some fond memories Red and Blue!
I think the '90s Spider-man cartoon got kind of lost in the shadow of the similarly amazing X-Men cartoon, which had the critical and fan attention at the time (and that amazing theme song).
A quote I'm reminded of from a battle at the center of the mind in a non superhero comic. The dark half asserts "you are who you are on your worst day" and the response (paraphrased) is "yes thats true, but you are who you are on the next day too, and each day you get to choose if thats going to be your new worst day or if you're going to be better" and it feels like that exchange fits thematically here
Oh my gosh, that’s my favorite moment from that comic. I still go back to it sometimes
Red mentioning Danny Phantom offhandedly, for some reason makes me want a full detail diatribe about it now. That show ruled!
Seasons 1-2 were peak
90's spider man cartoon was honestly so good, and holds up surprisingly well. They even did secret wars! They did the clone saga in a way that was better than the comics, they had the idea for spiderverse, and I can't help but feel they are responsible for basically setting in stone spidey's status quo, as sometimes lab tech, usually photographer, in love with MJ and no one else, ect. Hell I even sometimes forget that Hobgoblin isn't an interesting marvel character, since the show did such a good job putting him over.
Yeah, 90s animated Hobgoblin (voiced by Mark Hamil!) was honestly more interesting than any of the comicbook Hobgoblins. Even including the Jason Macendale version (the one who got the most character development, IMO), despite clearly being based on him the most (a sadistic mercenary who relied more on tools and sheer ruthlessness than actual powers).
Spectacular Spidey going suddenly and abruptly mute is terrifying because he has the best quips of any Spider-Being in the multiverse
In his words:
"My fans expect a certain amount of quipage in every battle."
One of my favorite Spider-Man what if stories is Spider's Shadow, a what if Spider-Man became Venom. At first it seems like it's going to be one of those stupid "What if this really good character snapped and killed everyone because that would be edgy" stories, but it's an incredible deep dive into Peter Parker's character and who he is. Basically, it takes the standard symbiote storyline, but changes one thing. Peter refuses the help from the Fantastic Four and keeps the symbiote. This is what leads to everything, ultimately. Just before he went to the Fantastic Four to run a diagnostic on the suit, he had beaten up Hobgoblin pretty badly, and after he left the Fantastic Four, he went to Aunt May's place and Hobgobling blows it up. Peter goes to fight him, but then realizes "Oh shit, May!' and tries to save her, but the symbiote doesn't let him go near the fire. This leads to May's death, and this is where Peter Parker becomes Venom in the story. He goes all out on Hobgoblin, and in this fight decides that it's best to kill him, so he can never bring harm to Aunt May again. He left the body webbed up on a streetlight, so people are all like "Spider-Man killed a man?!" while people who know Peter are like "He would never, we gotta go see what's up." Meanwhile Peter is being persuaded by the symbiote to go and kill more of his villains, and Peter's like "Yeah, that's a good idea." So he goes out and kills some more, and he's eventually stopped when J Jonah Jameson essentially creates a new Sinister Six team along with Eddie Brock (who stole Doc Ock's arms after killing him, which is honestly the only sour note of the story, because Eddie really didn't need to be a part of this story). But Peter kills the entire team except for Eddie and Jameson.
What ends up happening is that during a fire, the symbiote is weakened, weak enough that Peter can call out to Jameson to help him. Jameson is like "Peter Parker?!" and gets him out of there with no suit. The rest of the story is about the symbiote hitching a ride back to NYC and taking over Reed Richards, but what's incredibly important about this story is how Peter reacts to what he's done, and how MJ talks to him during this time.
Peter, of course, decides to take responsibility for what's happened and goes out to stop the symbiote, once and for all. He's beating himself up about it. He's saying that the Symbiote didn't make him so angry or make him want to kill those guys, HE wanted to do it all. He wanted every last thing that's happened here, and he can't reconcile that. So MJ tells him that he's the best person she knows. It's not because he's perfect, it's because he isn't. It's because despite the anger that he feels, the flaws that he has, all that darkness that's truly a part of him, he fights against it and does good. He does what's right, and how much harder it is to do what's right when he's fighting against that anger all the time.
The story goes on to be about Peter and the rest of the Superhero community going to stop the symbiote, the symbiote takes over all the other heroes except for a few, and eventually ends when the Symbiote is killed in a pretty badass way, with Johnny Storm posing as Peter to lure the symbiote to him, then flaming on when it attaches to him. Peter goes to trial for his crimes (Kingpin had leaked out Peter Parker's identity after figuring it out due to looking into what Hobgoblin had done before Peter killed him), but is found innocent. Reed Richards had died during the war against the symbiote, and Sue Storm offers Peter a place on the Fantastic Four, and that's where it ends, with Peter forging his new life after everything that had gone down.
Ultimately, I think that this is an amazing deep dive into exactly who Peter Parker is, and why it's so important that he isn't perfect. It easily could've been another story about a superhero just going on a murderous rampage, but it's not. It's a downward spiral of Peter having his anger be fed into until a breaking point, and then going on to do what he does best, fix his own mistakes.
The best assessment of Peter I've ever heard is that he's "exactly good enough of a person to be crushed by the guilt of failing to be a better person"
I respect your opinion on the Spider-Man 2 aspects you didn't like, but I definitely want to discuss them a bit. Before continuing, remember that the order of the scenes is Losing Powers > Uncle Ben Scene > Normal Peter > Burning Building > Aunt May Speech > Getting Powers
There's a clear thematic reason as for why Peter regains his powers when he does, and it's the culmination of multiple things he's learned after giving up his responsibilities/allowing his stress and lack of powers to enable him towards avoiding responsibility. He has been struggling with his social life immensely, his love for Mary Jane, and his reputation being smeared constantly by Jonah, among things like rent, work, and school. The stress overwhelms him, and he starts losing his powers. When the love of his life is about to seal the deal, cutting him out of her life forever, it completely destroys him, and he loses his powers seemingly for good. He seeks a doctor's opinion and is given the advice that he does have a choice in who he is, and only he knows who he is. For the longest time, he's been living by Uncle Ben's words and guidance. He's been living up to the responsibility that Uncle Ben bestowed on him - not his powers, even though we've been told he's chosen responsibility. We think he has, but he really hasn't. He was doing it for Uncle Ben. He felt obligated to do be Spider-Man, due to his guilt in Uncle Ben's death. We then get the amazing Uncle Ben/Peter scene, where he tells him that he wants a life of his own. It's heartbreaking, because Peter knows this is a selfish act, but what else can he do? His powers are gone, he wants a better life where he can focus on school, and he wants to be with Mary Jane. He only sees one choice, and that's to be himself.
In the next montages, we see Peter excel at school, fix most of his relationships, and find confidence within his daily life - confidence that he was lacking due to all his hardships and failures, due to being Spider-Man.
The burning building scene occurs about an hour and 17 minutes into the film, and at this point we've seen Peter avoid conflict/situations where he could've saved someone (like the guy beaten in the alleyway, or following police cars). However, the burning building scene symbolizes one of his first big accomplishments as Spider-Man, from the first film, and mirrors it well. He was able to save a woman's baby while also gaining the respect of New York's citizens, police, and fire fighters in this act, allowing Spider-Man to be seen a hero that the people needed and allowing Peter to do right by his uncle.
In the scene, Peter is no longer Spider-Man, but is compelled to help anyway, as Peter, because he still feels like he can do some good. He wants to do some good, and he's making the choice to do so. The responsibility is present in the back of his mind. But, he quickly realizes that, without his powers, he can't do the one thing that *he is now compelled to do*, meaning he is leaning closer and closer to following the path of responsibility again. Even still, he's powerless, and feels the guilt build inside him that, if he simply focused on being Spider-Man this entire time instead of focusing on himself and his social life, he would have the power to save the person trapped on the 4th floor. But why is that such a bad thing? Why is focusing on living a happy life a bad thing? It's not, normally. But to Peter, and the audience, it is. "This is my gift. My curse. Who am I? I'm Spider-Man."
Immediately after the burning building scene, he goes to Aunt May in search of answers, and she gives one of the most powerful speeches I've seen in any medium, but never before a more effective speech that delivers the core message of the film. In order to be a good person, in order to help the people that need it and to be the hero people need - Peter needs to learn to give up the things he wants the most, even his dreams. MJ, his social life, the comfort not being Spider-Man brings; Peter needs to give it all up if he truly wants to do the thing that's right. He knows it's not about him, and this is the lesson he learns. People need Spider-Man, and they can only do that if Peter's head and conscience is clear. He prepares to say goodbye to MJ, letting his love for her go and allowing her to live her own life, unshackled by his will they/won't they approaches. He knows it's for the best, and that he'll survive. He has to, because people need Spider-Man, and during this process he's working to regain his powers. He meets with MJ, telling her that he can't be with her. He has his responsibilities, responsibilities that he now chooses to accept wholeheartedly, and lets his love for her go. MJ isn't so willing to let it go, though, and she hangs onto the fleeting Peter for just a bit longer, asking for a kiss, grounding him before it all comes to a head and he makes the mistake of cutting all ties. Because for Peter, he's swung so far in the "Peter" side of his life that he doesn't understand quite yet that he needs a balance. He doesn't fully grasp the lesson he has to learn. On the surface, it's complete. Give up the things you want the most. The key word, however, is "sometimes". SOMETIMES, we have to be steady and give up the things we want the most, even our dreams. Not all the time, and not none of the time. Sometimes, and it's a play-by-play choice that Peter needs to carry with him at all times; constantly learning, constantly growing.
Then, in that very moment, Peter and Spider-Man's worlds collide. This is the single reason why his powers come back the way they do. Peter's social life and Spider-Man's heroics merge as Mary Jane is kidnapped by Octavius, and Peter is injured/confronted by him. Mary Jane is a victim in this scene, but unlike any of the other victims that Peter has saved thus far, Mary Jane doesn't just need Spider-Man, she needs Peter. She loves Peter. This isn't just a moment of her being a damsel in distress, but an opportunity for her and Peter to connect for the first real time since the Aunt May hospital scene in the first film. It's this combination of both Spider-Man and Peter Parker, existing at the same time and without contention, that breaks him free from his doubts, stress, and worries, and he finds a balance within himself - gaining his powers back and becoming the hero the city needs. He saves Mary Jane, tells her his secret, and the two halves of his life finally converge in a meaningful way, allowing him to set aside his own personal angst and anxiety while choosing to live the life of responsibility that he knows is needed. He is no longer tethered to Uncle Ben's words as his motivation, but finds a form of self-motivation; motivation that he lacked in the first place, which resulted in the earlier spiral and eventual loss of his powers.
Felt like they really glossed over the scenes that gave Peter the motivation to get his powers back. Especially Aunt May’s speech and the Train civilians. After Aunt May’s talk and all the crimes and tragedies Peter failed to stop then MJ’s abduction was more of the last straw.
It didn’t feel out of place because of all that set up. The consequences for Peter’s lack of powers were not only to show consequences to motivate him again. Those scenes had more than one use.
MJ’s romance may not be compelling to many but it served its purpose for Peter’s arc and partially MJ’s arc as well. She wanted to feel valued but didn’t feel it from Peter due to him disappearing all the time. So she got hitched with a famous astronaut but doesn’t sincerely love him like Peter.
Peter prioritizes himself much like MJ. They’re lives improved respectively but they don’t have each other. And they want each other.
Personally prefer their romance than the MCU. At least there’s a journey for both characters.
Very well said, a great analysis of the internal conflict of Peter that drives this film and makes it great. The clarity that peter gains through having no powers for some time as well as aunt may's pep talk are what allow for his powers to slowly return. When he finally steels himself in his resolve to commit to being spiderman and let mj go is when his powers truly return. He isn't confused anymore as to who he should be and what he wants, its clear now that his destiny is to be spiderman.
In the first few appearances of Venom, he was just as murderous and insane as his offspring Carnage when he was a villain. Later when Venom became an anti-hero, they made him less mentally unstable when he entered his Lethal Protector phase. Also the symbiote has had many hosts in it's lifetime. It's most well known host's are Peter Parker, Eddie Brock and Flash Thompson. The version of Gwen Stacy that becomes her universe's version of Spider-Man is bonded to her universe's version of the symbiote, but it's not as powerful as it's Earth-616 counterpart.
My favourite host for the Venom symbiote is Mayday Parker.
Wasn't it also deadpool for bit too?
@@ActuallyAthena It was! In Deadpool's Secret Wars issue #3, the symbiote briefly latched onto Deadpool. He was busy checking himself out with it, enjoying the fact that it could transform. However, when he realized that the symbiote was alive, he removed it from himself, not wanting to screw it up with his own screwed upness. Too little, too late though as this brief bonding actually caused the symbiote to go insane and led to the symbiote we know today.
I'd also like to mention that Deadpool's Secret Wars came out much later than the original Secret Wars issues, so this is kind of a retcon and an explanation for why the symbiote is the way it is. There's also some stuff with the Guardians of the Galaxy comic where the Guardians discover the symbiote's home planet and then its people help cure it of insanity, allowing Flash Thompson to tap into the full power of the symbiote
This of course is all also not even touching the Clone Saga era Planet of the Symbiotes and it's added weirdness-baggage, with Spidey, Ben Riley and Venom all having to deal with an accidental symbiote apocalypse using some of the tech from Maximum Carnage. Course this in turn also tried to shove the symbiote itself into an attempt at an altruistic/bad breakup deal itself towards Peter to help stand it out over the more feral planet-symbiotes who happily latched onto anyone they could get their claws on to sow havoc later in the arc.
On the subject of the landlord from Reimi Spidey 3, I always loved that scene too. The look of utter bewilderment and concern on his face just sells how out of character that was for Peter. Reminds me of what I think is an old proverb. "A wise man fears 3 things: The sea during a storm, a moonless night. and the anger of a kind man." The gentle souls can be the most dangerous when they snap. both because you don't know what they're capable of when angry, and they might have experienced anger enough to keep from doing something VERY drastic.
Edit, Post Spidey 3: I'm in agreement. That film did a lot well, it's just overly condensed and rushed as hell. I always felt that if they'd made it a two parter, it would have been much better received. Like if we were given just a little more time to Marinate in Black Suit Spidey, and maybe cliffhanger on him nearly killing hobgoblin, or maybe move that to before the Sandman kill and have it end on Sandman's death/that being ultimately unfulfilling, then pick up next film with the rejection of the symbiote, we'd get everything that movie could be.
I think that if they'd cut out Harry getting Amnesia, they could've had him reach out to Sandman and use him as an semigwilling sidekick to get at Peter - Harry offering Flint money to pay for his daughter's illness.
Honestly, just cut Venom from 3 and let him be a Villain in 4.
I really liked the spectacular Spider-Man line from Venom
"From now on we're poison to Spider-Man AND Peter Parker! WE'RE VENOM!"
I absolutely love Venom's lighting in the 90s cartoon. I love how he's got the red & blue highlights.
Here’s the thing about getting his powers back to save MJ in Spider-Man 2: Otto foreshadowed it early when he told Peter that keeping something like love inside can make you sick. In the comics, Peter has had moments where his powers stopped due to psychosomatic reasons (guilt over uncle Ben causing them to stop when the sinister six made their debut). The whole point is Peter is of the mind that he can’t be with her or happy in general unless he’s no longer Spidey.
So when she’s kidnapped, it’s his subconscious wake up call that he can’t do this anymore. He loves her, and he is Spider-Man, and he’s going to save her and stop Doc Ock. It’s him finally being revealed to her that finally lets him be honest with her and himself, that he is Spider-Man and that he does love her, even if he thinks that means they can’t be together. And she thankfully takes the initiative in the end because now she knows the truth and makes it clear that his superhero life is something she accepts wholeheartedly (a recurring theme from her comic counterpart secretly knowing he was Spidey and choosing to still accept him all the way as opposed to Gwen or Black Cat who only accepted one half of him).
At least, that’s how I interpret it. Feel free to disagree.
Just to comment on the whole Spider-Man 2 thing:
I can see where Blue is coming from but I’d argue that Peter was already ready to be Spider-Man when he met MJ at the diner. His conversation with Aunt May when she’s moving out is the moment Peter decides he still has to be Spider-Man. He even rejects MJ before Dock Ock kidnaps her.
And another point too, the ending of Spider-Man 2 isn’t just MJ and Peter getting together anyways, it’s both MJ and Peter finally not lying to themselves and finally admitting they both like each other! MJ ditching a wedding is icky, yes, but also completes her character arc of finally deciding something for herself. There’s a deleted scene with MJ and her actor friend that I wish made it into the movie proper because it basically spells out this entire arc for her. One of the biggest failings for Spider-Man 2 is not making the story for MJ more clear.
One more thing, the last shot of the movie isn’t Peter swinging away, it’s MJ face. It’s arguably a moody last shot, and can be interpreted as the reality of MJ and Peter’s relationship setting in, how hard it will be to maintain having your boyfriend put himself at risk every day.
Sorry for the diatribe but I felt it was important to specify. To simply say Peter’s entire motivation collapses to Mary Jane feels like an oversimplification of the 3rd act of Spider-Man 2.
I agree. There's a little ambiguity with his powers, because after Aunt May's speech he still doesn't seem to have them and I can see how someone would interpret it as MJ being in danger is what flips that switch, but my personal read on it is actually that it was rejecting MJ that was the catalyst there. He was at the café to tell her he couldn't see her, because he realized that the life he wanted to live as Peter and the life he to live as Spider-Man were incompatible and chose Spider-Man.
It was when he realized that Spider-Man was more important than his relationship with MJ that his block was released, not just when she was in danger.
There's also a scene early in the film where Octavius tells Peter that love is a powerful thing and hiding it can make you sick. So there's another interpretation of the story that the reason for Peter losing his powers isn't the stress of living as Spiderman, it's the result of him not being able to resolve his feelings about MJ in a healthy way for the majority of the film.
I appreciate how Maguire Spiderman in No Way Home sort of touched on the very real work he had to do to make things work out between him and MJ. It's super downplayed in the delivery but it speaks to the characterization of Peter taking responsibility for his actions, even though he was hopped up on Symbiote Manic Juice, he recognizes his capacity to do wrong. I adore good characters who have such a tempting capacity to be the WORST villain and have to consciously work to be Better.
I, too, am a brown-eyed white boy that loves Spider-Man, but the Black Suit is my all-time favorite iteration! Not just because of the awesome aesthetic, but the acknowledgement and acceptance of our own darkness, like you said. Loved all your points and your passionate banter! "All forks and no spoons makes Spider-Man an edgelord." killed me!
I may be bias, but there is something about the Symbiote and it's influence on Spider-Man that that so clearly parallels the influence of the Dark Side on you.
It's always fun to see Red and Blue truly in "best friends talking about a thing they both love" mode.
In a way, the whole Symbiote storyline feels like it could easily be viewed as an analogy for substance abuse and addiction.
It makes him feel good, maybe makes him stronger/more powerful, but messes with his behavior in a way that is bad for him and his personal relationships. It drives him to do things he wouldn't normally do. It's often very difficult for him to give up. Sometimes he gives it up and then takes it back again - or discovers that he never got rid of it in the first place, which is perhaps a more accurate interpretation. And then, even once he's actually finally managed to free himself, he still has to deal with all the shitty things he did (and also Venom).
I'm so extremely glad to hear someone else say Cosmonaut's line pretty soon after I saw his video because it was such a good damn line. I really loved this detail diatribe. I also love when it feels the convo goes more and more off rails similar to the Superman episode or even the Dragon Ball one.
One opinion I have though regarding the Toby Spiderman symnbiote is that I wish you guys spoke more on how Raimi had no context for Venom himself as it is so often mentioned. I feel like that bring your points home even more with how bare bones Venom is because it is from the eyes of someone who didn't grow up with Venom like a lot of us did. Especially when Venom wasn't planned as well. Since you tied movie 2 to 3, considering just how unplanned and unknown the Venom angle was and was able to hit some of the real good core themes of the symbiote suit really shows just how good Raimi was at really getting to the heart of his cast.
One more point I would touch on is that canonically the suit does not make him stronger, it only loosens his self imposed handicap. The reason the fights are more brutal and the villains say as much, is because his super strength is peaking out more than they are used to and he doesn't care as much if they get hurt. (edited to correct spelling mistake)
So it’s basically a placebo?
@@animeotaku307 Similar to, but there is a subtle difference. A placebo causes a positive outcome because you think something you are taking/doing is causing a positive. In this situation Peter Parker knows his full strength and limits himself. The symbiote just removes the thought of a handicap from his mind.
We need to get this comment pinned! I didn't even realize this!
that makes sense. but why is venom so strong if it’s just bonded to a normal human
@@up_dog2127 There is the idea of compatibility with the symbiote and the host. It has been canonized that Eddy Brock is the perfect host. I would look up "the king in black" and venom "the end" to see what I am talking about
To show how much trauma venom caused Peter. There is a comic where Peter saves a man who turns out to be a tailor that makes super hero costumes, they end up having lunch at a diner and talking shop. The tailor asks Spiderman why he doesn't put a mouth in the costume, cause he always has to pull it up to eat and what not. Flash to that night in bed Peter can't stop thinking about it and goes to the bathroom to look at himself in the mirror with the mask on. He pushes part of the mask in to his mouth to see how it would look and immediately gets a flash of Venom's toothy grin in the mirror, rips the mask off and just yells "nope"
One take on the black suit that I'd like to see is the suit amping up and perverting the power/responsibility maxim in some way. Perhaps pushing Spider-Man to supercharge the concept of great responsibility to be be HIS great responsibility, leading his to lash out at others that would help. Mainly, I'd like to see something more than the suit makes Peter angrier.
I can’t wait to see how they handle it in the sequel
Really hoping for at least a nod to Kraven’s Last Hunt
I am from the future having completed the game all I can say is that it is GLORIOUS, and nothing more
The bit with Peter doing the wrestling match and getting stiffed is in fact straight from the original comics. Great video. Loved hearing your takes on this.
1:34:48
THIS! _This is what the weird cringe dancing scene is for!_ If they just let black-suited Spiderman run around being badass in a way that's cathartic for the audience, we're going to root for him to keep doing that and see anyone stopping him as a wet blanket. They needed to show him losing his inhibitions as also being very cringe and uncomfortable for us, so we'd go "Yeah this guy is clearly losing his humanity, please make it stop."
I like the symbiote as an amoral influence that both gives peter the power to take all he desires and drives him to do so without regard for whether his desires are good or evil.
It's way more interesting to me as an enabler of Peter's own worst self, than as an influence that makes him something other than himself.
"you'll pay for this!"
"The check's in the mail"
Another line that went way harder than it should have
I'm surprised you talked for so long about Spider-Man 3, but never once talked about how the theme of the movie is revenge and forgiveness (unless there's a part of the discussion that I forgot).
Peter wants revenge on Sandman, Harry and Eddy want revenge on Peter. Eddy refuses to give up on revenge to the point that in the end, it literally kills him. Harry lets go of his revenge quest, but doesn't forgive himself. Peter is the one character who forgives both others and himself, and is thus the only character who makes it out the other side alive. It's frankly impressive that Raimi managed to fit Venom into the revenge narrative, since I'm almost certain that originally it was only going to be about Harry and Sandman.
When you mentioned the thoughts VS. Actions and how it pertained to "wanting uncle Ben's killer to die/be dead" escalating to going out and killing him, I immediately thought about how some people get really friendly when they're drunk and some people get really rude
What I like about venom is the that they are so desperate for Peter Parker to be their host they’ll rebound on almost any opportunity
Including that one time it hijacked his corpse.
Aw yeah, nothing like in depth media analysis with my morning coffee ❤
Honestly the best Detail Diatribes are where they go "Hey I really like this thing you may or may not have heard of, and for the next one or two hours I'm gonna gush about why I really like the thing."
37:00 There were two great moments I liked in Spider-man 3. One was Sandman pulling himself together. They gave the vibe that this was the hardest thing he's even done. I was dealing with sleep paralysis a fair bit at the time and that amount of effort just to move *a little* reminded me struck home.
The second was there's a moment when Harry's putting himself together and on the big screen they managed to hit a shot and lightning and makeup to make James Franco look like Willem Dafoe and that was good.
I have a chronic illness, and whenever i am having an episode i listen to your detailed diatribes and it really comforts me. Thank you so much for making these! It makes my worst moments bearable
I do like how, while the Symbiote is very frequently portrayed as evil, it is also semi-frequently portrayed as actually caring about Peter in its own weird way. I remember Spider-Man: Life Story where Peter uses the Symbiote for a number of years while knowing that it's alive since it's a good equalizer to help when he's getting slower in his older years. But he does eventually reject it once it goes out of his control, and it attaches to Kraven to seek vengeance on him. However, when Peter is about to die in the final book and needs a bit of help averting a disaster, the Symbiote immediately comes to his aid and helps him be a hero in his final moments. I really like that dynamic.
It's honestly a heartwarming end for the symbiote, showing that in the end, it really did care for Peter