Breaking Fate in God of War Ragnarök - Detail Diatribe
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
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you ore great good vid
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You should do analysis on xenoblade 1.
"Loki basically doesn't do any of the stuff he's supposed to do in the mythology" feels like among the most Loki ways that could have happened.
Loki: *reads the script* Fuck that
@@Blandy8521”Yeah, not exactly a big fan of the whole ‘strapped to a spike while venom drips onto me’ plan so, let’s just… not”
Yes
Don't think he could give birth to a snake, a wolf and a girl. Or a horse
@@zoidbergthebabyjesus1606When you have a second look up ‘metaphor’ in a dictionary, you might learn something…
What I love about the Heimdall scene is that Kratos does *not* decide Heimdall’s fate. Heimdall does. He had the option to walk away, but in his defiance he didn’t, thus sealing his own fate.
Also, it took me a while, but I think I figured out why Odin was so obsessed with the crack in the universe. He’s trying to stop Ragnarok, sure. In doing so, he can continue to insulate himself from the consequences of his own assholery. As long as things stay the same, as long as he can maintain his order, he never has to face those consequences. Which is, of course, why Kratos scares him so much: he can’t control him.
Not for nothing, but it’s also hilarious that the wooden mask is, well, Loki’s mask from The Mask.
He could just cut his arms and legs and pull a mimir.
It would have been fun for us to have mimir and atreus to have heimdall.
@@pjlusk7774 Clearly, then, God of War Ragnarok is a prequel to The Mask (1994)
@@Melonist SSSSSSSSSSSSSMOKIN'!!!!!
I think in particular I find it amusing that Heimdall would've been a perfect Thor if their situations were reversed, the dude doesn't think and acts purely on instinct without too much thought toward the future consequences, the exact mindset Odin wanted out of Thor. It's that lack of hesitation toward duty that would've made him ideal had the roles been reversed, with Thor often being a more sombre figure who might have better served as a guardian, not a destroyer. Alas, while it was undeniable that he loved Asgard, Heimdall's lack of tact and tendency to make enemies of everyone, in addition to approaching all his problems in a bull headed or defiant way ultimately sealed his fate. Just ironic really, Odin's manipulation didn't take any consideration of who they might be beyond how *he* felt they ought to behave.
Brok explained how to change fate. It was about the nature of their choices, not the form.
Wow! How did that not click sooner!!! Thank you!!!!
Ohh. Though I suppose it was the nature of Tyr that mattered, not his form.
Huh, i thought that was his tip to overcome heimdall, cos the nature of the spear is infinite (unpredictable) but thr form is solid, guess it goes both ways
Yeah, on paper Kratos killed Heimdall and then used the horn to summon Ragnarök; but it was for a much better reason than people assumed it would be hearing it out of context.
There's also the fact Kratos was not "supposed" to be up in the Norselands. Odin's prophesy probably was seen before Kratos used Clothos' Loom to change his fate, and thus Odin saw a prophesy that took Kratos dying in his fight with Zeus in account.
“There’s a lot of this game where I feel like this would be very heavy for some of the audience”
That’s *very* true. The scene where Thor is lying outside the mead hall drunk, apologising for falling off the wagon, when my wife saw that scene she had a visible reaction and said that she’s had that exact conversation before with her dad.
I've had that conversation with my mother, too. I've never been able to get through to my mom, so I wanted so badly to see Thor come around. The last fight with Thor was extremely tense for me because I SUPER didn't want Kratos to kill him, I wanted so badly to see Thor become better for his kid. So when Thor stood down and then Odin ganked him immediately I want from being ecstatically happy to wanting to Spartan Rage and beat Odin to death with my own bare hands in an instant. I was already fully onboard with killing Odin to avenge Brok, but seeing him kill Thor and any chance of him growing into the man Thrud knew he could be made me angrier than anything ;-;
Yeah, it hit pretty close for me. Especially as his daughter is talking to him and trying to help. You can see on his face that it hurts to hear, he doesn't want to listen, but he's too drunk to say anything back or even get up. So he has to stay and hear everything he already knows is true and be reminded that he fucked up and let everyone down. He let himself down too, but he doesn't even have the self esteem, or think he's worth enough to even be able to do that. It's only his wife and daughter that give him any kind of value. It's unfortunate how relatable it was for me personally.
The saddest part is the only reason Thor is like that is because of his dad. He falls off the wagon after Odin makes him feel belittled and stupid, and basically picks Atreus over him. His own father has never treated him like anything besides a tool. To Odin, Thor isn't even his son, he has as much value as the hammer he uses. From the beginning Odin is trying to push him back to drinking because he's easier to control when he's drunk. It's extremely sad, deep down Thor is just a boy that wanted his father to be proud of him and feels like he's failed. Much like Atreus in the first game
What I kind of love is because of Kratos being such a physical and not emotional character, he's able to recognize the physically abusive elements of his upbringing and has already learned to avoid them.
There's a convo Kratos and Atreus have about Spartan training and how utterly brutal it was for Kratos to endure, and Atreus asks "Why didn't you teach me that way? Did you think I couldn't handle it?" and the response is "I did not think you should have had to."
The subtler toxic behaviors are harder to break through.
'Death can have when it earns me' goes so hard and really goes to show how much Kratos can defy fate. Man can just say no to death.
Can and has, several times
I mean, he's canonically died twice and just came back
He has died many times and just kind of walked out of the underworld. Play the ps2 games, where Kratos is seeking redemption for past actions and its revealed he's actually a great dad
Death: “Hey-“
Kratos: “No.”
Death: “Understandable. Have a nice day.”
Not even saying "no, " he's saying what has been said throughout the entire game, "do better" lol
You skipped over one of the best scenes of Kratos trying to be a better father. After Atreus releases Garm and Sindri's house is attacked by a Hel Tear, everyone is yelling at him, asking what he was thinking, that was so stupid. And Kratos puts a stop to it and just says he made a mistake and they will fix it together. He even asks what name he should call him, cuz he wants to respect his son's identity no matter who he chooses to be.
Gods, I love that scene. It broke me and healed me all in one. Perfection!
I actually thought that the “what do I call you” line was Kratos wondering if Atreus was family or a foe because before, he saw a vision of him siding with Odin. But yeah, you’re bang on in every other point.
EDIT: Also, it's a fantastic contrast to the hunt in the opening last game, when Kratos lashes out at Atreus for... being too quick in trying to kill the deer and letting him flee. Now, when he notices how regretful Atreus is for freeing Garm, he wastes ZERO time in deciding to help Atreus and in chiding the others for ganging up on him.
The God of War glowers at people who disrespect his son and then if then don't stop he makes war upon their dumbasses.
My take on the Magni and Modi part was:
Freya set the prophecy in motion in an attempt to break it.
Magni and Modi broke the prophecy by embracing it.
As the prophecy claimed they would survive it made them wreckless, leading to them picking a fight with Kratos under the impression that he could or would not kill them.
I actually really like this, because like the “in attempts to avoid fate/prophecy one walks into it” plot is something not too uncommon but I don’t think I’ve ever seen “in embracing prophecy you break it” so having the two as mirrors is really cool
@@Comnlink And not even just "embracing". They outright *relied* on that prophecy, and that was their downfall: they attempted to wear it like...well, like Plot Armor.
@@mannyvalerio6822 The reverse of the Big Fish movie's "I've seen how I die and this isn't it" as a motivator to go into risky, but potentially rewarding situations.
@@mannyvalerio6822 see also: the Witch King of Angmar. It's not that he has some magic anti-man spell on him, he merely couldn't see every possible way he be killed, and that his "prophecy" only covered a few of them.
@@bumfricker2487 I was actually thinking of Macbeth as a more classic example. He would not be killed by any man born of woman and didn't think about caesarians
41:46 Odin: "A Human?"
Skjöldr: *puts on Viking helmet*
Odin: *gasp* "Shield the Human!"
"I've got a Shield controlling me"
Odin: Behold! My Anti-Ragnarokinator!
I started reading that in Odin's voice, but I didn't finish it in his voice >_>
Well played
"Fate is just a metaphor for generational trauma."
Might be the best one line I've heard all year so far.
If fate is generational trauma, is generational trauma fate? As in, does generational trauma ALWAYS lead to fated happenings? I don't personally think so. It's a one way ladder. Trauma, fate, then happening. Happening, fate, then trauma just sounds like a way to describe how things happen.
@@xavierthomas5835 I'm someone who carries some Trauma with me and I feel it's my responsibility to make sure it doesn't carry into the next generation, I've always felt that Fate and Destiny were a choice.
The choices we make create our chains, weather we hold on or let go, so I guess in that way, yes. Do we choose to climb the ladder, descend the ladder, remove the ladder?
When faced with an intense emotional reaction we have a choice at how it effects us, regardless of when the trauma occurs, we have a responsibility as the inflicted to better ourselves and those around us.
And in this example, Kratos chooses to be better. Recognizing our short comings and failures is the first step in growing, and that growth isn't easy, because old patterns exist, it's not just choosing to be better, it's continuing to do so.
With our choices.
@The Man In The Orange Tuxedo I respect it. To me, however, it's like a yes and a no. God is God. God made everything. He knows how everything relates to everything else and how it's purpose helps or hurts something else. You see how the Norms can tell you everything consequentially. As in, they can tell you the consequence of the rigidity of people's hearts and character, and how that will effect future events. Certainly a great ability. Their reasoning of things is greatly hampered by human free will. No such thing effects God's ability. He knows things foundationally. He knows that this person has this or that bent toward this or that choice, but he also knows the secret treasure, the part where Kratos is ready to finally put old things to rest because he sees that something he put into, his son, is able to be compassionate and understanding of others. Even Red and Blue both speak about how the Norms can only see the easy parts, the parts that anyone can easily see. They just have a great memory, which is both a helpful and a hurtful ability to have. All this to say, if God has created everything for the purpose that he knows, with both the obvious and the secret intentions, and all the paths that that person or object takes, then fate exist as an entity separate from choice, because it is a design. If there is a God, and I certainly know there to be one, everything is by design. Even the unexpected. We just wouldn't be able to perceive everything so evident to God with a worldview hampered by only being able to see the consequences e of hidden things, even if we come to see the unseen.
@@xavierthomas5835 I agree with this.
I should say, God also gave us free will.
This is the beautiful paradox of mankind.
We can say all is in God's plan, because it most assuredly is, yet as you say, we can't see that from where we are standing.
That's the odd thing about it, both are true, Fate and Free Will. Here, where we stand, we can only see one.
Is and is not. Our meager understanding, and the all power of God. I think my point is we only have control over our choices and actions. And we were given that power by God.
Thank you, for reminding me.
@The Man In The Orange Tuxedo amen and God bless you. May the Lord Jesus be with you always. If I see anything at all, it is God's grace and not my own ability. Funnily enough, though, as much as I see these things, they don't affect my decision making. At least, not in the way one would think. By his grace, I know what choice I WILL make. But I still have to make that choice here and when the time comes. Being faithful in that which is good all the way.
I also feel like Modi's "How did you-" when Kratos kills Magni can easily be misunderstood if you don't know the myths. In fact, it's actually what happened to ME when I first played, I interpreted Modi's shock not as "how did you kill him, he's supposed to survive", I interpreted it as "how did you kill him, he's a GOD". Since Kratos's mistaken identity is what kicks the plot into motion, they don't know who Kratos is, they think he's the giant they're looking for, not the legendary Ghost of Sparta, the Godslayer.
This is exactly what I thought
In a good story, everything happens for a reason. In a great story, everything happens for at least two reasons. I bet Modi was feeling BOTH ways when his brother, a son of Thor, a god with this great destiny in front of him, is … just… suddenly dead. Sure, he and Magni were egging on the boy and the man, but they felt perfectly safe doing so. They’ve read the ending of the book. They think they know what they are dealing with.
I think it’s interesting how Kratos’s signature weapons are “the blades of chaos” and in this context, he’s very much an agent of chaos. He’s the unpredictable, uncontrolled element who seems to exist outside of all the rules that constrain everyone else.
same thing happened to me when i played the game
I was thinking the same thing, it's a line that works on multiple levels, where Modi is shocked not just because Magni wasn't supposed to die, but he's shocked that this random mortal was able to kill him in the first place not having the context that this was no random mortal--the guy who killed an entire pantheon of gods is hanging around in Midgard.
@@GreyPikmin334 considering how most of the giants were wiped out, it's entirely possible that most of the aesir don't even know what one looks like. It explains why Baldur says "I thought you'd be taller" when he meets Kratos. He thinks he's Laufey, the guardian if Jotunheim, and if the gianrs are as powerful as people say they'll be MASSIVE, because the leaders of the Aesir only respect raw strength
51:54 I just realised something deliciously ironic: Odin spends his whole life in serch of the way to "be free of this fate and prophecy" and here Loki is offering him EXACTLY that.
He's spent so much of his life, and lives of those around him, solely devoted to that realm tear, that he simply cannot comprehend that what he's been looking for the entire time, is on the tip of his tongue.
It's like if you were locked in an escape room for all your life, and assumed the door was locked, with the key being found somewhere in a puzzle in the room. It would be natural to assume the door does not open without a key, otherwise why would this be called an "escape" room? When that door is revealed to have been unlocked the entire time, when Atreus shows him an open door which he's been looking for his entire life, he refuses to believe him, and continues to look for a key that never even existed. All because he spent every waking second of his life prior to that, sacrificing everything he had to the notion of "the key". It's cognitive dissonance, at it's purest.
God, fucking, damn.
@@lavans5721 It's also his thirst for knowledge, he wants to know what happens to a god when they die, but more then that he wants to know everything, and the rift offers that, he's spent too long and too much to give it up because beyond everything else if he stopped then in his mind what has all that time and all the sacrifices he made have been for? Atleast before he could justify his actions by thinking about everything he would learn once he saw through the tear.
@@lavans5721 I think it's also (ironically enough) be also caused by his control freak nature. Throughout the game it's made clear that Odin's has this all consuming need to control the actions of others, to the point that he kills people if he can't control him. Accepting Loki's offer would mean bowing to the will of another person and he would die before doing that. His need to be a puppet master means he can't change his fate because he is destined to die from the consequences of his schemes. Karmas a bitch.
Odin's response to Thor's refusal makes total sense in the saddest way: There is nothing angrier than a narcissist losing control of someone's mind.
??? Dude don't call him a narcissist, people with NPD aren't all like that. You can just say what you mean instead of saying he's mentally ill.
@@joyflameball As a Psychologist... I said exactly what I meant.
@@blackshade9ableism isn’t cool even when its against cluster b people
@@joyflameballBut it’s true Odin is self absorbed and narcissistic and in the last battle tries to gaslight everyone into thinking that he had to kill Thor and then attack his grand daughter with her father’s hammer
Yeah, aren't there literally different forms of Narcissism? There are people with NPD who can have happy lives that doesn't come at the cost of others'. It's hard, but of course it's possible.
I feel like the ones who are just the least likely to accomplish that feat are those with Malignant Narcissism. Like Odin.
1:00:00 One detail that I haven't ever heard mentioned is the color of that depiction of Kratos. His pale skin is a mark he gained for his sins, and earned him the epithet The Ghost of Sparta. That epithet followed him to the Nine Realms, being the destroyer of a pantheon. But Faye didn't paint him in white in the end, as the Ghost of Sparta. She painted him in gold, as if forgiving him so he can become something more.
Damn. I've never thought or heard that one before.
52:49 I love that this scene is framed like a classic good/evil choice, with Odin and Kratos representing Atreus’ options. But while Odin plays into this and tells Atreus to put on the mask, Kratos refuses and just says “I trust you to make the right choice.” It’s perfectly emblematic of how Kratos refuses to play along with fate. And so, the choice is no longer between good and evil, but between fate and free will
And yet somehow, given the earlier scene with the Norns, it seems also an indication that Kratos now understands fate much better than Odin as well.
If the Norns' prophecy is being able to read the kind of choices one is likely to make, making fate a matter of choice, Kratos encouraging his son and trusting in his judgment shows he knows his son's fate is not his to control, nor is it Odin's. Atreus' fate is Atreus' alone...just as the Norns indirectly suggested.
I'm pretty sure Kratos appearing directly after the gang fall through the ground outside the great lodge is a manipulation by Odin. The camera pans back and Kratos is gone, further cementing that it's just an illusion by Odin.
And ultimately, the mask is not necessary for Atreus to see the truth of fate, of the universe. In that moment, he merely holds the mask and gazes upon the tear, and knows the truth, that fate is mutable, a result of ones choices, and that we are only bound by it if we refuse to change. Odin standing next to him and saying "You must do this, it is your destiny, it is said to be this way and it must be this way" and yet Atreus sees that he can break the mask and REFUSE...that is the great truth, the secret concealed. Loki had his question answered without even needing to ask it. It's why Odin was unable to look into the tear, to learn the truth of the mask, because he was incapable of accepting that he could change, he was incapable of understanding the truth of fate.
@@TitaniaBird it’s also a sign that Kratos was listening when the Norns said that fate isn’t fate, it’s just everyone being predictable and refusing to change. Kratos recognized in himself his desire to control his son’s fate, and so he chose to change, to literally develop as a character, and that was enough.
Kratos literally hates fate so much he became a better person out of spite, and it WORKED. What a great arc.
@@DetectiveOlivaw well duh we all know spite while not the nicest motivator often gets the best results. I know at least 10 people on a personal level whose greatest achievements were achieved out of spite. So many people do things just to prove someone wrong. Modern power systems can be attributed to Tesla’s spite of Edison for example for him not believing alternating current could be useful to the point that he bet an absurd amount of money that Tesla couldn’t do it. And that spite was even more warranted when Edison didn’t pay up.
“Even in death, you STILL put him last!” - Kratos
"THE F*CK YOU SAY?!"
@@ShadowKamehameha32 “Modi sought us in fear of you. He died of the wounds YOU gave him.”
@@Karlos1234ify "OH, WE GOT A MODEL FATHER HERE!"
@@inkedseahear "This feels...familiar."
@@ShadowKamehameha32”What?”
Kratos defies all laws of nature. His voice is so incredibly deep that it does not break glass, but rather fixes it. His axe is so sharp that it heals trees. His son is so much of a failure that it made him calmer, not angrier
That last one got me
Kratos: BOI! EMOTIONAL DAMAGE-
at least he can"t send atreus to jesus
BOI
That took a turn 😂
What I loved the most from the fight with Heimdall, is Mimirs reaction to seeing the tiniest TINIEST glimpse of who Kratos was in Greece.
And he was terrified beyond words.
He obviously knew about The Ghost of Sparta through legend and word of mouth, as he quickly figured out that he was Kratos.
But witnessing Kratos delve into that for just a moment was more terrifying than any description someone could give him.
I honestly believe that, if Mimir had witnessed what Kratos did first hand, before coming to Midgard, he may have been too afraid to offer counsel.
I feel that Mimir's angle *was* horror, but not because Kratos' old habits are so very scary. Or more likely, not JUST because of that.
He was horrified because he knew how much time and energy Kratos had put into distancing himself from his past. Dude has literally been strapped to the hip of the man for much of the juiciest bits of character growth. Over years of companionship, bonds strengthened sufficiently that even the big stoic himself occasionally calls him "Brother," Mimir came to understand as much as anyone alive just how badly our old god killer wanted to leave his past violence aside.
So when Heimdall forces Kratos' hand again, refuses every attempt to change how the narrative goes and draws out the essence of raging hatred from him-- though being such small potatoes, he doesn't require much of *that* effort-- Mimir understands what that means. That's the source of his horror, he just watched a friend slip backward into some very dangerous old habits he'd been keeping locked away with such inspiring success.
It actually feels kind of like a reflection with Thor again, now I think of it! The thunderer fell back to his drinking habit, something he was known for as much as his feats of power. In much the same way, Kratos' return to hatred was a step backward, a step in the wrong direction under intense external pressure. As with the rest of the game though, Thor is in too deep and late to the rehab center, while Kratos has already been on the ten step program for months, just looking out at the weaker world with his Grecian chad dad face. The God of War worked hard enough that he could take the hit and still have moved forward.
But that doesn't change the fact that having a relapse, is scary. That's really what Heimdall's death scene was all about to them. That's why there was such pain and empathy in Mimir's voice when he said "I can't tell if we're breaking Fate, or Fate's breaking us."
@@IronianKnight That's a great insight and I couldn't agree more!
@@IronianKnight Heimdall's death wasn't scary in a brutal, gory kind of way, but more a psychological, raw way. Kratos didn't spend anytime torturing (Posideon) or inflicting unnecessary pain and violence (Hermes, Zeus), his violence was hyperfocued and hyperefficient. Like his rage has been honed and perfected, and that's terrifying.
I meam yeah, one thing is watching a documentary on lions, the other is watching as a lion rips someone to pieces right beside you.
51:39 - Atreus' "There's always a choice" line was him directing quoting Odin when he was disguised as Tyr, so he was LITERALLY throwing his own words back into his face.
I don’t think people give Kratos enough credit for the way in which he is choosing to raise Atreus considering the context of how a spartan is expected to raise a son.
As I’ve already stated, he is a Spartan. His entire culture and heritage tells him that what makes a boy a man is to basically force them to survive entirely on their own (with minimal intervention to toughen them up) unless your talking about exceedingly harsh punishment, training, or conditioning.
It was not only honorable to become a trained killing machine, but societally expected and even determined how that person was treated in society.
Kratos Fought every bit of his cultural perception of manhood to teach a better and healthier version of it to his child
Yea, I love the one banter line he and Atreus have
"Did you not think I could handle it?"
"I did not think you should have to."
"... Thanks father."
Angrboda’s mother was Groa, the giantess who foresaw Ragnarok in the first place. There was an optional Mimir conversation in the 2018 game where Mimir explains how Groa foresaw Ragnarok, told Odin about it in exchange for Odin’s help finding her husband who’d gone missing, not knowing that Odin had killed her husband in the first place, and then was killed by Odin herself. It’s a very sad tale.
I went down a rabbit hole and the original Gröa was actually a Seidr. Thor got in a fight with a giant who smashed his head in with a whetstone and got it lodged in his forehead. So Thor goes to Gröa to have it removed and in the middle of the spell, decides this is the time to tell her he saved her husband from being killed and turned his frostbitten toe into a star.
Gröa is so happy that she loses her concentration and the spell flops. Thus Thor was stuck with a whetstone in his forehead and I got to imagine all the blockhead comments that probably followed.
Gröa was later raised from the dead by her son, Svipdagr, so he could get advice on finding his future wife and the blessing for an epic quest that was lost to time except for the beginning and end.
@@Phantom86dMind sharing the source? I'd love to read it
I’m playing the game again now and Groa is not Angrboda’s mother. Her mother recorded Groa’s visions to preserve them. Angrboda refers to her mother and Groa as separate people.
Another thing I liked is that Freyr very clearly holds a lot of hatred and trauma after the Aesir burned him alive as their form of a cruel joke. And his final act is willingly dying in the flames of Asgard while the Asgardians and Team Ragnarok escape
37:12 fun fact the bit where Kratos fails to grab the horn in one motion was not actually scripted, that was Christopher Judge messing up during the capture shoot. He was upset about it at first but the directors loved it so much they kept it in because it was the real and raw reaction of a living person in that moment. And I just fucking love that. They let the god of war’s humanity shine through here.
My favorite random mythological reference is that Skjöldr is the mythical first king of Denmark, having founded the country with gold from Odin. In the game we last see him trying to retrieve the gold coin Odin gave Kratos and was subsequently tossed miles away.
He also dated Thrud, which is impressive for any mortal, even a legendary king!
And just think, no matter how great his kingdom gets, her friends and family will always be like, “yah, whatever you say, coin boy!”
And they’re literally gods so he will never live it down! 😂
Another point on Freyr, in his myth he loses his sword trying to find his beloved sister Freya who is missing. In the game instead of dying because he game up his sword to find her, he holds it and dies saving her. He dies overall for the same reason, but on his own terms
57:43 Incorrect, Angrboða is not the wife of Loki who holds the bowl over his eyes, thats Sigyn. Sigyn holds the bowl because it's the sons of Loki and Sigyn who were killed in retribution for Loki's role in Baldur's death. Angrboða is only noted as the mother of Fenrir.
Mother of fenrir as well as hel and jormungandr.
@@wcapewell3089 True, point still stands that Angrboða and Sigyn filled different roles in the myths involving Loki.
Which also confuses me on why Red thought that they would include that story at all, as up until Ragnarok the story of the cave is technically the final story Loki involved in. The cave story is meant to be his ending as retribution for all his lies and tricks. It's like asking an ancient greek why there are no stories of Prometheus after he gets tied to a rock, because that's the end. The whole moral of the cave story is meant to be "Dont go through life relying on deceit, tricks, and cruel actions because retribution will eventually come."
@@TriXJester Except, in both cases, it isn't their last story. Prometheus gets saved by Heracles during one of his 12 Labors. Loki gets freed for Ragnarok.
I mean, it wouldn't be impossible for them to just be different names. Virtually all of Them have multiple names.
@Thomas Willard you know what, good point. If Atreus can be Loki, we can combine Sigyn and angrboda
I never knew if it was the intention of why Kratos stabs Thor's hand to stop him but I always liked the idea that it was him grounding the lightning through the blade going through him and into the dirt. Really cool way to calm him down when he's in full lightning mode.
I think it may have been a more symbolic thing though I'm not sure of what. It was a knife made by Kratos and Faye together, both whom fought Thor. Plus you could argue that with Kratos there to stop Thor from pulling the knife out , to continue the fight he'd have to drag him pinned hand through the knife to free himself, essentially harming himself just to keep fighting.
I did not consider the knife to be an electrical ground, I like that. I saw Thor was left handed and went 'Of course he gets stabbed there, it disarms with out requiring magic or prosthetics to deal with the damage later.'
Well, we all know Electric-types don’t do so well against Ground-types.
@@bluecanine3374 It's symbolic in the fact that it's made by, as far as they knew, the last Greek and Jotun around, using alloys from both of their realms to make something that does not first and foremost function as a weapon. They deliberately timed it to coincide with the birth of their son so that it may be symbolic of their hopes and dreams for him.
It's with this knive that Kratos is shown to have overcome his old nature and keeping in the spirit of his wife, possibly set a victim of profound abuse onto the path of possible rehabilitation or even redemption.
I like to think Thor’s lightning mode is his own version of spartan rage
So basically the Norns are really genre savvy and are like halfway though a show and being like “yup these dunces are totally just going to murder each other” and then they go to loudly yell it in the audience or on spoiler free forms.
Yuup it's the "I have so many murder mysteries in my brain, I can predict the killer based on the framing of the characters in the first 15 minutes"-kind of thing, lol.
Yep, I think in Odin's case it's literally just "Odin is such a massive douchebag that he has it coming. Someday, _someone_ will come to get him. So _of course_ Ragnarök will happen."
I adored how they did the Norns in GoWR. It's so good and accurate to how they function in the Norse viewpoint. And the whole scene is a direct foil and contrast to Freya and Kratos. The thing is, the Norns are not actually able to be mapped onto the Greek Fates. They are fundamentally different. They aren't Past, Present, and Future, though a lot of storytelling makes them so for simplicity. They are necessity and consequence. The way to look at them is thus:
Verdandi is 'that which has been and cannot be changed.' She represents choices made, events happened, moments remembered.
Urd is 'that which is becoming.' She is things as they are now, exactly as their truth shows and faith understands.
Skuld is 'that which must be.' She's those things that are inevitable and impossible to win against.
It's sometimes easy to map these concepts onto the Greek Fates as, past present future, but they aren't actually anything to do with time passing. They are more about will, choice, and nature. A bell rung cannot be unrung and it will make a sound when rung. You cannot undeclare a war. You can make peace, changing the state of nations, but war happened. When you put your hand it water, it will become wet. All things will die. Doom is indwelling in all things and your doom will find you, no matter what steps you take to avoid it. And this web of nature and causality and consequence and choice applies to all things in the world to the Norse viewpoint. If one knows how and has the skill, one could kill a mountain or murder a cloud. And by doing so, a fate will come to be as a natural consequence of that action.
When it comes to Kratos and Freya, the Norns in GoWR teach this lesson by holding their own bullshit up for them to look at. Kratos is Greek, so he is convinced that Fate is written and one can rail against it. But that isn't the case anymore. Greek Fate is dead, killed by his own hand. Kratos might have grown to understand his wrath was used against him and did not bring him satisfaction, but he still acts in the way he knows. He needs someone to point out that it isn't his improved reasons or morality that matters, but his choices and actions. Killing sometimes is the best choice, sometimes is necessary. Hiding behind that necessity doesn't redeem your action, nor does shying from that necessity make you a good person. You do what you choose, what needs to be done, and then you step forward again on your path, facing the next thing to come.
Freya is actually Frigg in this game, not Freya, really. Though there is some evidence that they could have been the same goddess in certain eras or areas of Scandinavia anyway, so it's not that big a deal either way. Regardless, as Frigg, her problem is she knows too much. Frigg has an amazing gift of foresight and prophecy, but seeing all that consequence before her tends to make her act in ways that seem overly blind or cautious. In truth, she sees what needs to be done and does it, but everyone has a blind spot and hers is her family. Baldur died a needless death, as was said by the Norns, because she could not see past this prophecy of his death enough to make a wise decision. So Baldur goes mad and dies. The Norns highlight that fact to her.
All this to say, I absolutely loved the Norn scene, hands down. Lol.
What you say got me thinking: is the Norn cutscene a cutscene (no choices) because of how Kratos views them? And is the inability to return to them symbolic of him trying to change fate?
@@jinxcat90 Could be perhaps. Lol. Or could be a game design and storytelling contrivance. I think this idea might be pushing a bit toward the limits of deliberate symbolism but it's certainly a valid and cool read into the scene. ^_^
You mentioned bell ringing and I had flashbacks of the damnable chest opening. If I had not been tickled by the kelpie and the Norns, I would have found a way to defy the cutscenes myself!
Yeah, it is pushing it a little too much into conspiracy theory. And I'm sick of those. Red's complaints about the scene and your explanation got the gears turning, though.
The first game actually has a small scene where Mimir (iirc?) Explains that Frigg and Freya, for the purposes of God of War, *are* the same person. Like, Frigg is explicitly an identity invented by Odin to hide that he's married a Vanir, not a person separately from Freya.
The Norns knew Atreus, as a reckless knowledge seeker, would give himself over to Odin, which puts him in the path of Heimdall.
The Norns knew Heimdall, as a cocky intention reader, would be entirely against working with Atreus, but would grudgingly accept it as a lapdog of Odin.
The Norns knew Kratos, as a protective god murderer, would eventually fight Heimdall and find a way to get through his defenses (would kick his ass) but then attempt to change his nature by letting him live, which makes the self-absorbed Heimdall threaten Atreus' life to Kratos' face.
Heimdall intending to kill Atreus was not set in stone until Kratos had Heimdall on the ropes. It's likely Heimdall would have continued barely tolerating Atreus if this conflict hadn't occurred and he doesn't get humiliated. The Norns said "You WILL LEARN that Heimdall intends to kill your son." because saying it in that moment is not telling a truth, but reading the whole cast's nature. Honestly, I believe Kratos realized that during the cutscene before the final phase.
i think what i love the most is that Odin didn't have to die. if he didn't kill Brock, they'd probably lock his marble away somewhere and he could have gotten another chance to live years later or something.
Odin died because of his own actions. he could not change
I think Thor and Sif didn't tell their daughter about what Odin was actually like because they were afraid of what would happen if she tried to confront him. She's clearly a very headstrong person with a keen sense of justice. If she learned this, it feels very reasonable to expect her to go try confronting him.... which would either lead to her getting harmed by him immediately, or her getting manipulated against them since Odin has to know what she wants and would turn the blame onto everyone else, which would get her just as hurt.
I think it was much more prosaic than that. They’d already lost two kids to Odin’s war machine, and didn’t want to lose a third. Also, Odin pretty badly mutilated the previous batch of Valkyries, corrupting them and trapping them in their physical forms. Thor and Sif almost certainly knew all about that, and may have even helped with it. They probably wanted to spare their daughter from that.
We saw how beaten down and broken Thor's sense of self is, he doesn't believe that he deserves better treatment from his father. I don't think Thor really recognized Odin's treatment of him as abuse. Both of them wanted to protect Thrud but I think Thor just didn't want to give Odin a reason to think that she's as useless as he thinks himself to be. Sif was definitely way more aware of how effed up it was that Odin just throws people at his problems until they die or he runs out of people to sacrifice.
Sif says as much when talking about her sons being used as cannon fodder to throw against Kratos when Odin KNEW that Kratos kills gods.
When the Lady makes The Drauphnir Spear, (The Drauphnir Spear for Heimdal. The Drauphnir Spear made specially to kill Heimdal. Heimdal's Drauphnir Spear),
when she pricks Kratos for his blood, it forms the Omega/ God of War symbol. She makes a disgusted face at it, then the blood changes to a Spartan symbol, which she accepts.
Symbolically, Kratos is defined by his past, but not by prophecy.
Beautiful little artistic detail to Draupnir I really loved once I noticed it; as you upgrade it, the cloth made from Kratos' blood visibly gains the pattern his old Greek kilt had (the gilded squares).
@ISchulz not to mention this was all surrounded by the talks with Brok along the way about form and nature. Kratos once had the nature of a God of War, a Destroyer as Thor puts it, but not that is just his form, how everyone still sees him (the omega symbol). What's more throughout the game everyone is wondering how they can convince Tyr to be the prophesied General to lead their armies while when asked Kratos refuses to do so as well. So the Lady essentially says even if every God throughout the land sees him and fears him as a god killer (like Odin who brings it up) he instead is a General like back when he was a "noble" Spartan and he is the one who will lead them into battle, not Tyr.
Disgusted? Nah man, I think surprised but not disgusted
Didn't expect a Kuzco poison reference from the Emperor's New Groove, but I am here for it good sir! @Rougesteelproject
“But how does this spear help me against Mr. Ultra F. Instinct over there?”
*realizes the spear can multiply*
“Oh yeah, it’s all coming together”
There are some really good video essays on the topic out there I love but one thing I especially love about that scene of Kratos staring at the mural is the fact that he has effectively become the all father that Odin had always promised but failed to be. He is a wisdom and knowledge giver who aids those who are lost, he defends the animals and people of the realms from those who would hurt the innocent, he uses his gifts and paths to go realm to realm fixing or guiding or supporting them. In a way he has become the new father of the pantheon and it really shows both the true scope of Odin's maligned idea of fatherhood but also how Kratos has truly become a good dad. This game rocks, it made me cry.
I'd argue Kratos never actually defied his fate in the Greek games because it was never his fate to defy. Every single prophecy points to Kratos turbo-murdering the pantheon, but it's actually *the pantheon* who are in the driver's seat. It's their choices to repeatedly fuck with the level 100 murderhobo to avoid their own deaths that causes Kratos to react & go on a rampage. If anything, Kratos dives headlong into embracing his fate because that fate says he gets to personally inflict every agony he can imagine on the people who fucked with him, consequences be damned.
One of my favorite interactions in the game is when Brok gives Kratos a lecture while Atreus is gone.
“I must keep him safe”
“Oh because he was always so safe at your side? No one ever tried to kill him?”
Brok always telling it like he is. He can read the room and knows well before Kratos that with without him he needs to let him go and grow.
I absolutely love the Norns. The Norns are able to tell Kratos his future knowing that it changes nothing because in the end Fate is just the consequences of everyone's actions.
Awesome diatribe! One point you never mentioned that I also thought was interesting; The fates never actually say that Heimdall WILL kill Atreus. They only say that he intends to kill him. So the implication is that Atreus may actually be safe, but Kratos assumes the worst and goes charging in to save the people he loves, as is part of his nature, and this plays into the prophecy told by the Giants and the Norns.
No mention of when Kratos finally stops calling Atreus “boy” and starts calling him “son”? I got misty-eyed. Such a small change, but it’s a huge, emotionally-vulnerable thing for Kratos.
I also love the parts where Atreus gets genuinely angry and loses his cool whenever he gets called “boy” in this game. Like, he just got sick of being called that lmao.
I think the important takeaway from the Norn scene, and why you can't make this choice for Kratos, is because he's not ready to be better yet.
I love how Odin seals his fate so incredibly early in the game. There were many breaks in fate before, but by imprisoning Tyr and impersonating him, he BROKE broke fate. I never knew the other smaller breaks because I don’t know the details of Norse mythology, but by playin the role of tyr, they never actually found him, so he was never there to lead the army in Ragnarok, which I’m pretty sure is one of the big things. If Tyr was there, maybe things would’ve butterfly effected, maybe Kratos would have lost. I just love how much Odin did just to die
I know this is very late but im pretty sure this was a the prophesy said the god of war, not tyr situation.
Can I just say, mad respect for starting out the video like "hey here are some other videos on the same topic, you might find them interesting too!" So many creators are paranoid about sending their viewers off the channel but it really respects the viewers and their goals and perspective, and helps lift up other creators too!
On Freyr's sacrifice, I have a theory as to why:
While the game doesn't give a reason during the moment, the game makes it clear leading up to that point that Freyr is a reckless and carefree partier that prefers to avoid responsibility. I believe his decision to sacrifice himself was to prove he could be more than that. Furthermore, if you speak to Lunda after Ragnarök, she'll tell Freya that she knew Freyr had potential for greatness one day, and that she's proud to know the rest of the realms know it, too
My favourite line is "We say there is no other choice, to console ourselfs with the choices we've already made."
I love that when Kratos tells Atreus that he trusts him, he's not saying "I trust you to make the right choice" he's saying "I trust that whatever you do is the right choice". Kratos doesn't know, Atreus knows more about this whole situation than he does, so Kratos can't make the call one whether or not it's a bad idea to look through the crack. God, I love this game's writing so much
Hell yeah! He's saying that regardless of what Atreus chooses, regardless of what happens to Kratos, regardless of what happens to the world at large, he trusts that his son knows what's best for him. This is him essentially preparing his son to leave the nest. Letting him go, and trusting him in taking care of himself.
God what a game.
The fact that the game with the tagline of the largest war of the Norse Gods, the end of the Nordic Mythology, has the most amount of growth and development with the idea of "We will not have our fates define us or those who come next" really feels strong. It feels like the story of Kratos finally reached an end where he lets go and doesn't let the pain of his past shackle him down, or drag Atreus with him.
Oh my god! Could you imagine if after Kratos and Freya leave their shelter for the post game all three Fates are there cheering, munching on snacks and drinking. Then they vanish after congratulating him for putting on a better show than expected.
Point is, there may not be a "better" show. They don't have expectations, but seem to grasp how people are going to interact: they don't know *the script* (as in "the future") but rather *everyone's character*
Honestly, as another channel has pointed out, Sindri actually goes through almost the exact same cycle of horror and tragedy Kratos and Freya both go through. Only as they're getting closure and comfort in knowing each of them have each other's backs, Sindri is alone in the end.
Sindri gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and everyone is perfectly okay taking everything he has without giving any recompense. They take his family, they take his home, Kratos and Atreus/Loki cost him literally *Every single good thing in his life* and it's not until Brok's death when he's getting to his lowest point that Loki even *starts* to register maybe they've taken advantage of him. Because not only did he give them their trust to come into his home, they brought in his brother's murderer who literally could never have found their home without them directly leading him there by his own admission.
Everyone says this, but I still don’t see how Atreus and Kratos are to blame. Yeah, they brought “Tyr” to the home that everyone was working out of. But everyone except for Kratos and Atreus had met Tyr before, and it took forever for Brok to cotton on to the fact that something was wrong. There is no way Kratos and Atreus could’ve known. If you’re going to say that it was their fault, then you might as well say that it was everyone’s, including Sindri’s, faults. But I have a better idea. Hear me out. What if none of them were at fault? What if the only person at fault is Odin, the bastard who actually killed Brok? I get why Sindri is lashing out. That’s the easiest thing to understand. What I don’t get is why everyone is actually agreeing with the obviously grief stricken man lashing out blindly in anger, trying to deal with his pain.
@@coltonwilliams4153 The thing about grief is that it isn't rational, and you are filled with countless what-ifs. When someone close to you dies, you blame anything and everything that even remotely has to do with their death. And whilst Sindri puts the majority of the blame on Odin, and even himself for not bringing Brok back with all his soul, Kratos and Atreus are to blame for bringing "Tyr" into his home.
It can be compared to Freya's grief for Baldr. She blames his killers, but eventually comes to terms to his death and the parts that everyone, including her, had in it. And it results in her renewing her friendship with Kratos and Atreus, despite part of her always hating them for killing Baldr.
It would not suprise me that if Santa Monica does anything with God of War moving foward, then Sindri will have a similar arc. A sort of "you had a part in Brok's death and I will always hate you for it, but you are dear friends and Brok wouldn't want me to fall into the grave with him".
@@TheWebslasher I agree. Sindri blaming them for what happened is perfectly reasonable and understandable, in so far as grief and anger are reasonable. I just don’t understand why so many other people are agreeing that Atreus has so much of the blame. Nobody else is grief stricken, right? Unless they seriously got into the game that much, in that case, I do understand.
@@coltonwilliams4153 It's because Atreus was the one to look for Tyr, and the one to bring "Tyr" to Brok and Sindri's home. Atreus' curiosity about his destiny is what led to Odin being in the right situation to murder Brok.
@@TheWebslasher And Sindri was fully on that train, even behind Kratos's back. The only thing Atreus is truly guilty of here, is getting played by Odin. And there's too LONG a list of people who got played by Odin to throw all the blame on a literal teenager.
To be fair, the final prophecy of a death of a bald headed man with a beard dying in Atreus' arms...did come true. It just wasn't Kratos.
It just struck me that's why Odin spinning round to land in Atreus' lap stuck out to me; it's the prophecy image
What I think is interesting about that image is that it has a triple meaning:
Meaning 1 - Kratos' death is shown to he at the hands of Thor. Thor kills Kratos in the boss fight at the beginning of the game. Sure, he brings him back, but that shit was canon.
Meaning 2 - Odin is the bald man with a beard in Loki's arms. You already mentioned this, so I need not elaborate.
Meaning 3 - Thor is in the image of Odin's death, which I believe is no accident. Odin dies only after betraying Thor. Thor may have been Odin's final chance to actually chill tf out, but instead, he kills his own son. The image of Thor looking down at Odin dying is poignant.
You know what's a fate I can't break? Watching and loving every detail diatribe!
Why and how was I able to read this in Linus "Tech Tips" Sebastian's voice?
Honestly, yes.
@@amithabraham2224 Who?
Blue: "because you're such a basic bitch."
Lol, no these are my favorites as well. These and the occasional update on the journey to the west.
The thing I really like about Faye’s characterization in this game is that you can really feel how much she loved her family. Not only in the flashbacks, also in what we learn at the end. Her gold paint murals were basically her giving a proverbial “fuck you” to the fate predicted by the norns and the giants. She was the first person to basically say “no, it doesn’t HAVE to be like this” in the entirety of the norse world. Angrboda mentions fate being inescapable multiple times as well. It’s like you say where she believes her husband and son can be better than what the fates predict. It’s the biggest “fuck you” to the fates especially since her belief is the opposite of the fates’ pessimism. I don’t think she knew 100% what would happen in this altered timeline after the thor vs Kratos fight. The gold paint in the final mural seems to signifiy what she WANTS to happen for Kratos. It’s how she guided him. Being the person who knew him the best and loved him the most, she of course wants what’s best for him and what she believes he deserves, which is to be treated like a god. The final mural not only shows this possibility to Kratos, it also reminds him just how incredibly deeply his wife loved him, on top of believing in him way more than he ever did in himself.
I'm going back through the game all this time later, and Angrboda has a line that absolutely supports this. After showing Loki the marble that was destined for Laufey, she remarks, "sorry I don't know more about your mom. She left the Path of the Giants long before I was born." This 'Path of the Giants' sounds like Norn's view of prophecy, and aligns with Ymir's dreams of the future, where Odin kills all of the Giants after finding a way into Jotunheim. Faye 'left the path' by deciding to subvert prophecy with love. By embracing her role as Loki's mother and Kratos' wife, and preparing the best journey for her family to take after her death to heal and grow, it seemed she knew that Prophecy was just choices, and that she could help her loved ones make better choices and subvert the worst parts of prophecy. It's still incredible to me how the Giants have such a strong influence on the plot and thematics despite disappearing long before we enter the story. Faye is one of the best characters in fiction.
This is probably my favorite detail diatribe because it is a testament to the real world parents who broke cycles of abuse for their children. It's so painful and so heartwarming. Change is painful and very, very scary. But the rewards are worth it.
I must admit I rather liked all the Norns and their theme of “we’re not prescient, we just know people really, really well.” Because to me I feel like most of us as we grow older have experienced moments where we meet someone whom we know is going to make a bad decision because of some personality trait or flaw. And we wish they wouldn’t because it’ll lead to a lot of hurt and heartbreak, but we know they will because they’re too scared or proud to change that part of themselves. And when you meet enough different people and personalities over time you go “Yeah, I know EXACTLY where you’re going to wind up.”
And to me the Norns feel like that taken up to eleven, where they just know what’s going to happen because most people just aren’t that introspective. And in my mind you can practically see them after the ten thousandth person coming saying “I want to change my fate!” and not stopping to think what that’ll take or not having the strength for that deep introspection needed to change that Norns just went “Uh huh. Sure you do, hon.”
And to me one the key lines is Urdr’s departing line to Kratos, “I’ve enjoyed your story so far. A pity it has to end so soon.” Our of all the people they’ve encountered, Kratos stands out. And I think that’s because he is one of the rare few that has the strength and the possibility to actually change and look inside, thus defying his “fate.” And so his story would either end with him meeting his “fate” and dying or defying his fate and growing to become a truly better person. They liked his “story” because of that possibility for him to change and exceed where others have failed.
That being said, I can totally understand seesawing between finding them interesting and being really annoyed at them from the standpoint of a writing perspective. I just personally find them fascinating taken kind of as an element on their own
Oh man, that point about knowing exactly what someone's going to do hits way too close to home for me. And then I find myself wondering if I'm the same way, what people would say is my "fate" if they were being honest. And if I would even listen.
I mean, Skuld IS prescient...
@@Bacxaber Is she though? Or is she simply really good at predicting what people are going to say? It’s kind of like when you’re watching a series and you’ve grown to know a set of characters so well that you know exactly what they’re going to say next
@@hfar_in_the_sky Nnnnnnno, she's definitely prescient.
"When you've lived as long as I have, you start to see the same eyes in different people"
44:30 “Wars are won by those who are willing to sacrifice everything” you have to sacrifice this tactical advantage to win the war against fate
35:32 oh right. The spear. The spear for Heimdall. The spear specifically built to kill Heimdall. Heimdall’s spear.
…that spear?
Yes, that spear!
Yes, that spear!
@@shadowldrago riiiiight…. Ughhh
Oh yeah, it’s all coming together.
I was waiting for them to make this joke, glad to see you managed it
Loki having a green mask really unintentionally invokes The Mask way too hard.
Cultural Osmosis has associated Green with Loki, also Loki wearing Deer antlers which I don’t believe is myth accurate but nonetheless invoke it in the beginning with Loki silhouetted holding a deer to make it look like he’s wearing antlers
I love norse mythology and would say I know most of it pretty well. But I totaly forgot Magni and Modi were supposed to survive acording to prophecy while playing both games and JUST noticed it when you brought it up.
Couple things I thought of:
- when kratos says "YES!" To Thor asking if he knew about what he's done, it has 2 meanings. Yes, he knows because he himself was once a monster who slaughtered countless innocents, but also yes, he knew because Mimir's recounted just about every tale of Thor brutalizing others, and has seen victims of Thor's brutality firsthand.
- I have a feeling that right before Atreus/Loki destroyed the mask, similarly to how, when standing before the crack earlier, he felt like truth and answers were whispering out from it, the mask allowed him to hear actual information pouring into his head, the biggest bit being that there were more Jotnar alive and out there in the world, which is the reason he gives Kratos for leaving after Ragnarok.
57:47 Angrboða is the name of Loki's lover, the jötuun mother of Fenris, Hel, and Jormungander. Loki's wife that Red is referencing is Sigyn, who holds the bowl beneath the snake's fangs to catch the venom. She's a goddess, but we... basically have no clue what she's goddess OF.
In a way, Zeus killing kratos was him trying to break his own fate of being killed by his son. So its really just a fate heirarchy.
Not even 'in a way'. That is literally Zeus' entire MO in trying to kill Kratos.
The thing I adore about the fates in this game are that it so closely mirrors real life. There are a lot of people around you who you can sort into stereotypes and boxes and near consistently predict what they're going to do next, even if it isn't a healthy mindset to hold, a lot of the time you'll be right. There's times where people try to break free from things like addictions, and the obvious fortune is that they'll continue down that path.
With prophecy, all it takes is just telling somebody "you can't" to make them stop trying entirely.
21:19: "The question which once haunted my being has been answered. The future is not fixed, and my choices are my own... and yet, how ironic, for I now find I have no choice at all! I am warrior... let the battle be joined." - Dinobot, "Code of Hero"
Oh dude hell yeah. This topic and the game itself are amazing and I love them.
Also love the credit given to brett and geller. Both amazing creators that deserve some attention.
Cant wait for bear to arrive
As far as the Norn scene goes, a quote I heard from a Buffy analysis channel fits it pretty well for me. "The rule with this much subtext is that if the text isn't actually saying anything then the subtext doesn't work." What the Norns are saying is very much a metatextual observation about the game's themes. But in a practical sense within the story and to the characters, what is being said isn't particularly reverent.
I love that Kratos did what any self-respecting Greek would do when confronted with questions he needed answered: he consulted the Oracle (or the closest thing to it he could find).
Personally I like the norn scene far more than I should. The revelation that there is no fate and the fact there appears to be one is simply due to all the key players just being so damn predictable was oddly satisfying and I liked the cruel irony that the norns spell it out but the heroes just continues on the same path despite this. To me it did raise one question, the norns see all and predicted future because people kept making the same choices. The giants meanwhile lack this omniscience and still were able to predict the future. Was it that they only saw "the most likely outcome" and because they believe the future is set in stone simply chose to follow it blindly and thus it happened as they foretold (with the exception of faye)
I think the gigants did have some way to scry into fate but believed it to be set in stone so they accepted their destiny and played their part accordingly, thus confirming their own belief. I believe the predictions made by the giants regarding Kratos and Atreus came true because they didn't change their nature, so it came to be exactly as fate predicted. It's not until both Kratos and Atreus change their ways that they are rewarded with changing their fate and thus proving the giants prediction wrong.
Skjoldr is also renowned as to be one of the first Kings of Denmark, in which Odin 'gave' Denmark to Skjoldr. Skjoldr is later seeing trying to remove the coin Odin gave to Kratos, as a golden coin touched by the hands of Odin and Kratos is valuable enough to buy a ship and some men, and its implied through that Skjoldr finds his fortunes abroad and eventually founds the Kingdom of Denmark
Kratos has really grown as a character throughout the God of War series.
Screaming at my screen all through dad of boy. "PRESS O TO HUG SON! PRESS 0 TO HUG SON!"
I'm noticing listening to this that the Mahabharata literally contains both of these dynamics but goes harder by hammering over and over again that your choices produce your character which produces your fate which produces your character which produces your choices. Up and down the ladder you go until you realize that is what you're doing. And no one, NO ONE, manages to get off the ladder until they accept their actions, and by then it's too late.
Can we have an OSP/Extra Mythology mashup pretty please?
I'm glad Red referenced the legendary poets of the modern age, Crush 40, to this Detail Diatribe. It really brings up the discussion to new intellectual heights. 🧐
I love how the cast doesnt break fate due to some Deus-Ex Machina. Instead the norns are just people who can read people and are only seen as psychics because they see that people never change. To change the future is to change yourself and your actions
one of my favourite Kratos moments is when he is talking first talking with Thrud, fighting but being really polite.
Would have been funny if Atreus uses the mask, only for us to not see it, and for him to tell Odin to pound sand when he asks what he saw.
I love the painted-over mural because it's Faye essentially saying "Screw the other giants' prophesies. I KNOW my husband and I KNOW my son. I know they CAN and WILL be better."
Never played any God of War games, but I find it interesting that Loki takes down Odin's walls with a *sonic* arrow. Smacks a bit both of Jericho, and of "well you didn't listen to me talking so now HERE IS ME YELLING"
With magni and modi thing I could have sworn, there was a bit of dialogue with mimir being socked they're dead and mentioning how kratos's presence is changing fate there.
Yeah, he mentions the fate being changed after coming back from spreading Faye’s ashes. He states that Fimbulwinter wasn't supposed to happen for a few hundred winters. But I believe he also mentions Magni & Modi's fated to survive Ragnarok as well.
Something came to mind during the discussion. Had kratos fought thor and, instead of showing restrain at the end, continued to fight. then thrud and odin would have arrived in time to help thor, leading to kratos’ death.
Blue: thanks so much for the half-joke that "the real plot twist was that fate is a metaphor for generational trauma." I'm from a family which, fortunately, is extremely supportive, so all my knowledge of this kind of thing is second hand, and while I'm familiar with the concept of the cycle of abuse - abused child grows up to be abusive parent - I'd never really caught on to that being what the term generational trauma is referring to.
(Though in the context I'm most familiar with it, I'd imagine there's more to the term generational trauma than just that. Up here in Canada, it's most often brought up in the context of the harm done by the residential school system to the aboriginal peoples of Canada which is a much more complex situation. But by understanding the basic concept, I now have a better chance of more thoroughly understanding the more complex version at play here.)
I adore the Norns, that whole scene was absolutely brilliant, and my only criticism is that we didn’t get more of them.
I like the Norns in how they're portrayed because they're very different from the fates in that the fates acted like writers writing a book while the Norns act like readers who have already read the book.
DETAIL DIATRIBE!!!
Edit: So good to see Jacob Geller getting some well-deserved attention 0:53
I mean, he's a pretty well-regarded essayist with some significant traction on each video. But I agree, it's always nice to see him succeed 🙂
He’s one of the best in the game. Were it not for Innuendo Studios, he’d probably be THE best. Even then, I consider it a tie. Dude makes great goddamn work whichever way you slice it.
Whats interesting regarding Heimdall fight, is that he misinterpreted Kratos, because he genuinely couldnt read him. The whole reason he gets the spear, is so he has a tool he can use on reflex and instinct. As a Spartan of Greece, he had been trained with a spear since he was a child. So he didnt have to think during the entire fight, which is why Heimdall couldnt read him, UNTIL, he consciously decides to spare him once. At this point, he says "Whats going on inside that empty head?"
It was the first of two times he actually read Kratos, the second time being as he died.
I am honestly glad Jacob Geller is getting more recognition these days, the guy is honestly one of the most compelling UA-camrs around ^w^
I wasn't a fan of detail diatribe at first but it has really grown on me. It's not easily consumed content but it really helps to guide you into a deeper thinking of the media that you use. From lighter topics discussed in Dr strange and samurai Jack to more dark subjects like castlevania and This video.
In short, keep up the good work and thank you for helping to open my narrow mind.
I like the dichotomy between the Greek world's hard fate, where not even the beings who represent fate can stop the prophesied fate of Olympus falling to the god of war, and the Norse world's soft fate, where completely separately from Kratos and Atreus, the prophecy of jormungandr killing Thor does not happen.
Really like how Odin was presented. From second one he talks and behaves like a mafia boss. So much of his dialogue comes off as slimy, even the most innocuous stuff.
I would say Thrud isn't quite spoiled, but more like sheltered.
Please, keep doing this details diatribes. I use to play in the background while I'm working and really helps my workflow somehow, even when I'm just hearing it and don't know a thing about the video theme (like this one. I don't have stomach enough to play GOW)
This was awesome. I love hearing all the details of the Norse mythology that I wasn't aware of and how the subversions of it confuse and befuddle the Aesir.
These videos are one of my favorite formats, cause do I know much about God of War? No, but I do know that I enjoy detail diatribes and that I'm gonna have a good time?
Oh yeah
My understanding of the Norns is that it was a reference to MacBeth, at least in how they act. Stage directions and fate and prophecy, etc.
Something with kid this way comes
Good call-out! I hadn't thought about that.
Also they call mimir "puck"
Funny you should mention Macbeth, considering Mimir references it outright
That bit with Kratos slipping while grabbing Gjallarhorn from Heimdall's corpse was actually the mo-cap actor flubbing the motion. They just decided to keep it because it happened to really work for the moment.
Beast wars, Code of Hero. "I thought that fate was written, then learnt it was not. Yet still when I reach this point, I find that there is no choice at all"
STILL MAKES ME CRY, gosh damn you beast wars T.T
"He lived as a warrior, and died a hero."
@@bluecanine3374 "At least I know where you stand"
"Leaves the fight covered in about three pints of his enemy" This line killed me. XD (which is apt, to be fair)
I can barely watch a full tv show often and I watched all of this in one sitting fulling engaged! Thank You. Thank You both! You have made my love of myth, my admiration for architecture, and my hype for history all the more and I am better for it. I always look forward to your releases and look forward to your next. The impact everyone working for OSP has made on me and mine is significant and very much appreciated!❤🧡💛
57:38 wrong wife, that one was Sigyn. Angrboda was the Jotun wife that was the mother of Fenrir, Jormungandr, and Hel. Maybe we'll still get a reference if Sigyn ever pops up
I don't know that he and Angroboda were even married, they just had kids
33:24
I keep forgetting about that I think I might have got the logic behind it, from what I've seen from all the videos as well as the story. I think it has less to do with Kratos being a bad parent and more of him trying to figure out how to break the news to Atreus
Like to sum up their relationship it's essentially like a person dealing with cancer (Kratos being the person and fate being cancer). Because if you look at it like that it makes a lot more sense why he's acting like this because one he's trying to prepare for his absence and two tell him about the prophecy is like it's kind of like equivalent of a dad trying to break the news to his son that he's got cancer and he's probably going to die. So looking at through that man that's kind of understandable why he does this and why he's so secretive
I love the detail of the Norns that they are the embodiment of the Maiden, Mother (sometimes called Matron), and Crone.
(Please forgive my misspellings, my keyboard doesn't have that "th" d with the cross through the stem)
-Urd/"Urth", the older one who speaks plainly but mockingly, embodies The Crone or The Past. She speaks of past decisions, why they came to pass, and reminds them of the guilt they feel for how things turned out.
-Verdandi/"Verthandi", the tall one who speaks in only stage directions, embodies the Present/The Mother. She describes things that are currently happening as they happen as they are informed by what has happened in the past.
-Skuld, the kid that runs around parroting people, embodies The Maiden or The Future. She knows what they are going to say before they say it because she is informed by both the past and the present.
Together, they represent the passage of time and, therefore, Fate.
"He's died so many times to know he's not immortal"
That's a a level of badassary even most gods never reach!
Also, both of you constantly say epic one-liners like this in these things and it's amazing!