When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly -1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31 -NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here. -There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3 - @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam -Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib] -The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after REV 1-4 in 11:4 -CANDLESTICK = church -[REV 1:20] -I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses] LUKE21:18-19 -so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels. REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24 -he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually -DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..." -2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." -In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ" -don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you, -don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign, -don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment, -it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God. -REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." -(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies. -The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!) -The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8. -I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22] -& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5 -There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture -REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful" -Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it! -I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse. youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Preterists like to espouse all of the eschatological views to make it seem like their view is held in the same regard. Its not, nor is it a tenable eschatological position.
Revelation FINALLY made more sense to me, when I decided to read it from a preterist viewpoint, however I do believe in a Final Great White Throne Judgement Day, in the future yet to come.
If the first Christians didn't see the prophecies fulfilled in the past that's a good indicator that they were taught by the Apostles to expect something that past history didn't fulfill. In fact, in one of the Thessolonians, I believe, Paul actually addresses the spiritualism of prophecy that showed up in his day. In short, it shouldn't be about what makes sense to you.
@@blanktrigger8863 I'm not sure I'm understanding your point. Are you saying? that I shouldn't be expected to try and understand Revelation when I'm reading it?
I am ... All of the above, ready for any or all, and that so many biblical men all have differing views brings a warmness to my heart that they can't figure out my Lord and Savior
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly -1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31 -NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here. -There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3 - @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam -Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib] -The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after REV 1-4 in 11:4 -CANDLESTICK = church -[REV 1:20] -I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses] LUKE21:18-19 -so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels. REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24 -he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually -DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..." -2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." -In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ" -don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you, -don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign, -don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment, -it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God. -REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." -(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies. -The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!) -The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8. -I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22] -& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5 -There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture -REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful" -Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it! -I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse. youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Eschatology is important, but it is not something that should divide true Christians. It is pretty grieving to see brothers in Christ resort to name calling and condescension just because someone else does not hold the same eschatological position. As long as we can agree Jesus will return and that he will be victorious in setting up his perfect eternal kingdom, then the exact timeline how that unfolds is something we can show grace towards others who do not hold our exact belief.
David Dee You’re right absolutely. It isn’t a small difference in one way though as it informs our world views and the way in which we see the Gospel in our world and world systems today
David Jesus said he would return, and did . People don’t believe because they don’t understand the Bible and the have preconceived notions because of false teaching of t.v. Evangelists , who preach basically for money. There was in fact a first resurrection....the Bible teaches it. I don’t understand how these two fellows , call themselves post millennialist but still don’t understand the kingdom of God came long ago ......Jesus himself said , the kingdom of god cometh not with observation. He told the Pharisees this in the book of Luke . Why are people looking for something to happen that already has happened long ago?
@@charlesgall8273 It was not easy for me to accept,that a lot of the stories in the Biböe are past,but now i am happy,that i could escape the false teachings of the Evangelicals.
A lot of preterist believe that Jesus did return in 70ad. That’s what seems to cause division and anger. I have a hard time talking to any Christian about my beliefs without them telling me, indirectly, that I don’t know what I’m talking about and I’m just flat out wrong. Most of the time they even get angry. The funny thing is that I’ve spent more time reading about all the eschatological views than almost everyone I’ve debated. I believe that everyone who accepts Christ as Lord and Savior have been saved.
With respect, the "rebirth" of "Israel" makes for an astounding degree of confusion with regard to eschatology. Just as Postmillennialism sent the Puritans and fundamentalists in early America on a failed experiment in bringing about the "new Jerusalem" and a "city on a hill," so too, Premillennialism is sending many Christians today on a fools errand to support "Israel" at all costs, not realizing that: a) Mystery Babylon is the earthly Jerusalem, along with her multiple harlot daughters (ref. Galatians 4 as evidence that the earthly Jerusalem remains in bondage and is irrelevant; only the heavenly Jerusalem matters now, and "she is our mother") b) The State of Israel is a counterfeit of the true Israel, the "One new man" in Ephesians 2. It's existence is very much anti-Christ, for it stands in opposition to the finished work of Christ who brought "together all things in heaven and on earth". Saying that God still has to "deal with the Jews" is like saying "Jesus didn't finish his work."
If the first Christians didn't see the prophecies fulfilled in the past that's a good indicator that they were taught by the Apostles to expect something that past history didn't fulfill. In fact, in one of the Thessolonians, I believe, Paul actually addresses the spiritualism of prophecy that showed up in his day. Also, nobody assumes Christian equals American. You've got BIG problems if you're using liberal talking points.
@@blanktrigger8863 The Flight to Pella was done specifically because the Christians in Jerusalem were warned to “flee to the hills” by Jesus “when armies surround Jerusalem.” The Roman army surrounded the city, then backed off briefly, giving Christians time to escape
@@justanotherbaptistjew5659 The point is not why those folks acted. The point is that the vast majority of the Church back then didn't view the Roman attack as fulfilling prophecy. A false ethic picked up from Jewish Tradition back then was to apply prophecy to current events via trivial overlaps while ignoring the absence of other more fundamental details. (ergo, Matthew's use of prophecy in his gospel - I can't remember if this was called pesher or one of the other terms I'm forgetting). So an army showing up and surrounding Israel would automatically be viewed as fulfilling prophecy to many in that situation - not so for those outside of the situation. Hence why you see the Church still looking forward after that even occured. Again, I state that Paul even warns against preterism prior to his death. A lot of the things that he tells the people to look for are solid historical events that are couched in demonic insurgence and false miracles, similar to Revelation, similar to Yeshua's prophecies. This is what the Church was looking forward to: the Satan finally revealing himself, establishing the Antichrist, administering the spirit of Antichrist as he reveals his true religion, establishing himself above all religions and gods/Gods as he scraps and ravages paganism, and setting up the counterfeit Zion in Israel with an idol (his Antichrist, the man of lawlessness) seating in the Holy of Holies as his throne room. None of that has happened yet.
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly -1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31 -NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here. -There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3 - @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam -Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib] -The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after REV 1-4 in 11:4 -CANDLESTICK = church -[REV 1:20] -I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses] LUKE21:18-19 -so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels. REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24 -he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually -DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..." -2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." -In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ" -don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you, -don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign, -don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment, -it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God. -REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." -(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies. -The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!) -The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8. -I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22] -& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5 -There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture -REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful" -Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it! -I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse. youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
@@blanktrigger8863 Because those prophecies weren't yet FULFILLED! Geez. Think for a minute. But what they did do was use terms that indicated they would be fulfilled in their generation.
Rev 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which are about to take place after these things." That seems pretty clear to me. It was about to happen shortly after the Texts were written and sent out. A few years to be precise.
Amo 9:14 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. Amo 9:15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.
I mean the end of that book literally talks about judgement of humanity and a new heaven and new earth with God being on earth with us and the new city. If you think that happened then I don’t know what to tell you lol
@@CryoftheProphet James in Acts gives the Apostolic and therefore authoritative interpretation of Amos and the Promise of Land. Amos was talking about what God was doing in the First Century with the Gentiles and bringing them into the new covenant! James connects the text with the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Christian community. ACTS 15! Study brother!
The go to books are these starting with the most current and working backwards: 1.) Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope by Keith Mathison 2.) The Millennium by Loraine Boettner 3.) An Eschatology of Victory by J. Marcellus Kik Boettner and Kik lived and preached in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Both men are men passed away in the mid-60s. Disclaimer: I haven't read any of the books, but these men are quoted most often by scholars of the Amill and Premill camps.
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly -1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31 -NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here. -There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3 - @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam -Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib] -The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after REV 1-4 in 11:4 -CANDLESTICK = church -[REV 1:20] -I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses] LUKE21:18-19 -so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels. REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24 -he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually -DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..." -2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." -In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ" -don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you, -don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign, -don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment, -it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God. -REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." -(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies. -The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!) -The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8. -I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22] -& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5 -There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture -REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful" -Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it! -I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse. youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Postmillennialism is optimistic-Christ through his church will conquer the world with His gospel by the Holy Sprit in time and space before the 2nd coming. Opponents say, "What about the doom and gloom verses" (anti-christ, tribultaion, beast, etc.) to which Mr. Wilson replied that Postmillennialists are usually also preterists, hence their future optimism. This isn't the only reason for optimism, Christ gauranteed the kingdom's victorious expansion (Matt. 13:31-33; 18:18; 28:18-20).
The problem is, this is contrary to both what's described in the text and what we see in history, whereas futurism fits both. Optimism isn't good when it's delusional.
@@blanktrigger8863 I don't think is contrary to what we see in history, the past was filled with religious hypocrites, people suffered so much because of the corrupted government, hunger, the church was persecuted in most of the world and in the countries where it wasn't, the people were not even allowed to read their bibles so they had no way to know when they were being lied to. I think the world is better now, the curch seems to be lost in america, but is growing so much in the rest of the world, and things don't look too good in this moment, but when you compare it to the past, we are just so privileged.
@@arlethgrimaldo3534 This doesn't disprove anything I've said as it applies a non-biblical standards b order to justify Optimism, which isn't supported by the text. Nor is it supporter by history. The text tells us to expect that things will he progressively worse before Yeshua returns. Once we enter the birth pains they will increase in cycles. It says literally nothing about progressive improvement over time, but instead the opposite. Most of the material benefit that you would reference is due to the fact that the birth pains haven't come yet. But by biblical standards, righteous has not increased. There has not been an abundance growth towards born-again people, rather the mask worn by wickedness has changed. And this follows from the Parable of the Sower where only one soil is good soil. It also follows from the fact that Yeshua never taught that those born-again should change the world. Nor did the first Christians have that perspective. It was only after millenarianism was rooted out and the government of Rome combined with the Church that this kingdom of God on earth now view became orthodoxy, and millenarianism was (and still is) deemed a heresy. That's where it all stems from. Yet history demonstrates that millenarianism is in fact true. The OT prophecy shows that the stone that grows into a mountain does so unhampered. It should never been beaten back once it proceeds. Yet the only things described that way in Scripture is Yeshua's institution of the millennial kingdom - not by human hands, says Daniel, but by the zeal of YHWH. The more you abandon these biblical standards the more you have to fall into delusion and apply worldly standards in order to see Optimism working. It ends up producing zero difference from modern pagans who parrot the same things.
@Dennis Yen I wouldn't state the case that strongly, but chapters like Isaiah 3 definitely disproves the Optimistic view. We see the very same judgements occuring in the West despite the material progress which shows that we aren't progressing towards righteous at all.
I would really like to hear him explain more about the suffering passages, whether they are still relevant today, and how one should answer the common objection to postmillennialism that there have been and is still much suffering and persecution of the church today, and also that the church seems to be on a downward spiral in terms of morality and faithfulness to the gospel (antichrists?).
Times and seasons, there will be upswings and downswings postmill just holds a gdneral trend upward despite the corrosion of American society, i.e. dont read the world into the bible let the bible interpret itself
I would say with the nukes (mutually assured destruction, stops nations from getting into full scale wars) and something like bitcoin, which stops the devaluation of currency. I think those 2 things are part of the ingredients of peace.
Believe me I really really like the position of postmillenialism but it at the end of day, so to speak, I am left with too many questions and the reality of abandoning premillennial teachers and assumptions hits me. I pretty much have to take the position that they were WRONG in their perspective and that is HUGE for me Revelations warns us in the last two verses of adding or detracting anything in the prophecy. I have come to the conclusion, that we need to be careful and tentative with our approach to Revelation. I am aware of my own assumptions but careful when I teach from them. So what I consider is to pray for each other as well as others that the LORD will make it know the truth and clarity of the end times for all of us.
@@AllforOne_OneforAll1689 I tell you what Josiah if the remnants of the Patriarchs are no longer in The Caves of the Patriarchs, showing the proof of the first resurrection, I will join you. I would suggest reading Alan Kurschner's recently released published dissertation on Revelation 20 as well. George Eldon Ladd stated once that it was this particular topic in Revelations 20 that kept him in staying in the premillennial camp. Keep evaluating everything on both sides of the debate, Josiah.
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly -1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31 -NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here. -There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3 - @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam -Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib] -The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after REV 1-4 in 11:4 -CANDLESTICK = church -[REV 1:20] -I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses] LUKE21:18-19 -so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels. REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24 -he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually -DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..." -2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." -In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ" -don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you, -don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign, -don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment, -it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God. -REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." -(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies. -The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!) -The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8. -I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22] -& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5 -There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture -REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful" -Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it! -I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse. youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
I really don’t see how any one could misinterpret “last days” as anything other than the period before Christ’s return and the end of the world. Especially when those verses are usually followed up with those events.
Because they read the whole Bible and see that the "end of the world" language is actually apocalyptic language of judgment. That the same language is used of the OT Judgments against Israel and the other nations, not the end of the world. The NT takes the OT apocalyptic language and applied it to the covenant breakers of Jesus' time, and fulfilled it within the generation with the destruction of Israel just as Jesus promised in the olivet discourse.
@Nero IV Brother, I am sorry to hear this. I struggled with that myself for a time, but I think the one thing that really grounded me was the fact that the resurrection of the dead has not happened. The full preterist has weak and tragically misguided arguments to convey the belief that the resurrection has already taken place. This is how I stay sane. Passages that speak of the resurrection are clearly future, and nothing could convince me otherwise. If the resurrection is spiritual, then Christ himself was not raised, and we truly have no hope, purpose, or meaning in this physical world. It's gnosticism. Matthew 24-25 mentions no resurrection, or even an allusion to a resurrection. Revelation 20 does. 1 Cor 15 does. 1 Thess 4 does. And Acts 1 clearly speaks of a physical return of Christ, pointing clearly that his coming at the resurrection is different than his coming in 70 AD. I believe the key to differentiating both comings is the resurrection of the dead. Of course this can be tricky with passages like 2 Thessalonians 1, etc, but in the end, these passages being future or past do not make or break anything. The centerpiece of redemptive history is the resurrection from the dead, something we must hold on to and differentiate from judgement comings. Praying for you, my friend.
In my own life as a once hard core militant atheist, I read these passages. Consumed the bible only in order to lay Christians to waste. Mind you, it was the juvenile or non studying christian I would debate but I went through the bible to prepare and I took it as a post mil preterest. The text is clear. End of the AGE etc. These teachers are absolutely correct when you hear them saying atheists tear these verses apart. The majority of Christians are teaching things that conflict with the text. I would use that often. Revelation clearly being about Jerusalem. Centered there. Etc. The fact John wrote it when there was still a temple. Etc. Now I say all that to say this. When I came to the feet of Christ at 33 years old I came into this futurist culture. Suddenly I forgot what I knew. I didn't have the disadvantage of traditions weighing me down. I saw the pure word for what it was. Then BECAME a man OF Christ and immediately succumbed to christian pop culture and tradition. Thankfully I woke up. Took to the text again and now see what I would call a much more complete and true understanding of the Word of God. Praise God. Never stop loving the word. Never stop fighting for the Kingdom.
So many passages that you take as being fulfilled in Jesus day simply logically were not. His visible second coming as lightning flashes across the sky? How has that already happened?
@@RockBadgerChristianity read Ezekiel and you'll find much of the same kinds of language used there regarding the COMING of GOD and His Judgements on various nations. Josephus also records how the Coming of GOD'S Judgement was manifested and witnessed in the skies by various people in years leading up to the physical destruction of Jerusalem.
Most scholars state Revelation was written after 70 A.D. Revelation 9 has not happened yet if you take the plain sense of words whenever possible. I enjoy listening to Doug but I would say he has it wrong on eschatology. Maranatha!
Only one ancient author said it and everyone believes him 180 AD from memory. He thought Jesus died in his 50's! John is instructed to measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. There was no temple after 70 ad. Rev 11.
Do you guys see those two bottles of beer behind Doug Wilson? Are those Reformation Beers? The green 1 looks like it has a pic of Calvin and the other looks like some church father with a long beard, lol!
The other one is Old Rasputin by North Coast Brewing, an excellent Imperial stout by an excellent brewer. .. so probably not a church father.. :) www.northcoastbrewing.com/beers/year-round-beers/old-rasputin-russian-imperial-stout/?ao_confirm
Sorry, but I don't buy this postmillennial view. We can certainly agree to disagree as Christians, but the one thing that bothers me is that most postmil or preterist interpretations don't tend to go verse by verse in the very text that speaks about the millennial, which is Revelation 20:1-8. There are specific descriptions in those verses (where 1000 years is mentioned six times) that connect to other verses earlier in Revelation. The devil is bound and sealed for 1000 years and deceives the nations no more (which we are told in Revelation 12:9). If we're living in the 1000 years was the devil truly bound and not able to deceive the world anymore? And if that is true, why would we need to heed the warning of putting on the whole armor of God in Ephesians 6:10-18? And if the devil isn't truly bound, what does bound mean? How about during the 1000 years the resurrection of saints that never took the mark of the beast? This is shown in Revelation 20:4-5 and any reference to the beast goes back to Revelation 13. Then when the devil is let loose and defeated, he is put into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet already are in (this happened in Revelation 19:20). Not trying to belittle other Christian's views of the last days, but when a view tells me that we're either living in the 1000 years or that it is passed already, they need to explain every word, context, and content of Revelation 20:1-8 to me. What part is symbolic and which part isn't? Exactly what does the symbolism mean? How does it connect to earlier verses in the same book that it references? How does the fall of the temple in 70 AD connect with those earlier verses and the 1000 years we're supposed to be living in now? It would seem that all Christians believe in Christ's return, but if we're going into details, we need to explain the verses about it (particularly as it pertains to the 1000 years).
@Iron Americana To be honest, it's hard to pin down exactly what Postmillennialists believe when it comes to Revelation 20:1-9. I hear a lot about what they don't believe, and they refute the pre-millennial view, but I honestly haven't heard a verse by verse explanation from Revelation 20 explaining what those verses mean. That is the point of my original comment. By the way, when you do a search of postmillennialism, you get this definition: "In Christian end-times theology, postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper." Go to GotQuestions.org and you get, "Postmillennialism is an interpretation of Revelation chapter 20 which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after the “millennium,” a golden age or era of Christian prosperity and dominance. The term includes several similar views of the end times, and it stands in contrast to premillennialism (the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign) and, to a lesser extent, amillennialism (no literal millennium). Postmillennialism is the belief that Christ returns after a period of time, but not necessarily a literal 1000 years. Those who hold this view do not interpret unfulfilled prophecy using a normal, literal method. They believe that Revelation 20:4-6 should not be taken literally. They believe that “1000 years” simply means “a long period of time.” Furthermore, the prefix “post-” in “postmillennialism” denotes the view that Christ will return after Christians (not Christ Himself) have established the kingdom on this earth. " So it's safe to say that it's easy to see why many Christians think postmillennialists think we're living in the 1000 year reign now since it isn't literal, but a "long period of time."
Post mill thinkers don't believe we are living in the millennium. The defining characteristic of post mill is the belief that Jesus will come after the millennium.
@@2timothy23 All readers of the Bible should read the Bible as it is written. Not every phrase is literal, the writers of the Bible very clearly employed metaphorical and figurative language and quite beautifully at that. That's not to say there aren't plenty of phrases that should be taken literally.
Orthodox or Partial preterism does handle the end times passages in ways that must be dealt with honestly by any bible believing expositor. That being said, the interpretation of those passages is secondary. For me, Postmillennialism's main problem has to do with reconciling its logical conclusion (the Church's victorious expansion) in light of Matthew 7:13-14. I find that Postmillennialism (like the pre-trib rapture view) could lend itself to unpreparedness for persecution
Matthew Abate I recognize the difficulty with the passage, and I by no means think my answer authoritative or comprehensive, but I have heard a premillennialist cite, which I think to be correct, that those rejected are not wholly of the world, but those on the narrow path are in the covenant community. If you look over the course of history, this mat well be reconcilable if the last great push took only 3 or 4 generations. This could have also been directed more towards the immediate audience of Jewish people, of whom you could expect only a portion to have whetted the Kingdom, while almost all thought they would. I think the key is addressing the end, of which no one knows the hour.
Horrible things have happened many times and in many places, and still do. Just today I see a news report entitled "Horrific Reports of People Cooking & Eating Their Children - and Digging Up Corpses - Come Amid NKorean Famine"
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly -1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31 -NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here. -There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3 - @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam -Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib] -The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after REV 1-4 in 11:4 -CANDLESTICK = church -[REV 1:20] -I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses] LUKE21:18-19 -so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels. REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24 -he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually -DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..." -2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." -In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ" -don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you, -don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign, -don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment, -it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God. -REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." -(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies. -The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!) -The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8. -I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22] -& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5 -There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture -REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful" -Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it! -I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse. youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Jesus: I go to prepare a place for you (John 14:3) Post Mil: We will prepare a place for you Question: When we read scripture, is the return of Jesus described as a peaceful transition of power and authority to Jesus at His return from believers who have obeyed the Great Commission and have "Christianized" the world, or do we read of the return of Jesus as a violent and bloody event (Zech 24, Rev 19) ??
I like Doug Wilson, but I remain unconvinced about postmillennialism. If God WERE trying to tell us something about the future (not 70 AD), how could he have done so such that it would escape that interpretive method? Jesus said, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and NEVER WILL BE. And if those days had not been cut short, NO HUMAN BEING would be saved.” The events in 70 AD just don't reach that level.
Ya...marrying and castrating a boy like Nero did, using Christian's as garden torches, famines so bad mother's ate their babies. "No where near the level..." Right?
@@jacob_maier The 20th century had much worse brutality, to Christians and non-Christians alike. Study history, smh. Between the Tzars, the Bolsheviks, The Soviets, the Third Reich, and the Japanese Empire, Mao's China, Turkish genocide, etc, I could go on and on. There was probably ten times the death, evil, famine, torture, rape, etc compared to Nero's time.
There are 2 different prophecies that Jesus gave us. One was about the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD. The other was about his return at the end of history.
@@lucarich8711in none of these times were Christians on the verge of extinction like in 70 A.D. I think the great tribulation refers to the period of Christian persecution after the fall of Jerusalem as well
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, nearly a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, and colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
WWI & WWII were far worse than anything that the world had seen before and Jesus did not return. If Jesus is correct that the end will be worse than it has ever been before, we are looking towards times that will be far worse.
i would disagree. during the days of Nero an average of 500 Christians a day were being crucified by the Romans.. there has never been a time worse than that
ReformedEklektos Then where is Jesus? Jesus said those times would be cut short because of how deathly they were, the time would be cut short by Jesus's second coming. Where is he?
deezynar If you had studied historical views of those passages like the amillenial or postmillenial views you wouldn't be asking that question.. It is best to study all views concerning eschatology instead of just accepting what is "popular" in the church culture you live in. Nobody denies the verses of matthew 24 you are referring to but our views of them and what they mean with consistency to the rest of scripture is quite different
Amillennialism view of eschatology makes sense. Seeing what is happening to the world today, i don't see why anyone would think to be a postmillenialist/preterist.
Amill like postmill makes no sense. Premill makes sense. There will be a literal 1000 year millennium, Revelation 20 is clear on that. Jesus will reign on the earth.
The "little horn" (aka. Antichrist; Dan. 7:25) would continue for, "a time, times, and half a time" (1,260 days). The "sea beast" (aka. Antichrist; Rev. 13:5) would exercise power for, "forty-two months" (1,260 days). The "two witnesses" would prophesy for "1,260 days" (Rev. 11:3); and the "nations...will trample the holy city for forty-two months (1,260 days; Rev. 11:2). The "woman" would flee "into the wilderness" to be "nourished for 1,260 days; Rev. 12:6); and for "a time, and times, and half a time" (1,260 days; Rev. 12:14). This same time prophecy is given 7 TIMES in Scripture. It has tremendous significance. Preterists must interpret the "1,260 days" as a literal 3.5 years. Futurist also must interpret the "1,260 days" as a literal 3.5 years. However, it was the Reformers, and post-Reformation theologians/biblical exegetes who recognized in this time prophecy the DAY=YEAR principle (eg. Eze. 4:6; Num. 14:34). John Gill (1697-1771) writes concerning Rev. 11:2: "...this [time prophecy] must be understood prophetically of so many months of YEARS; and a month with the Chaldeans consisting of thirty days, and a year of 360 days, which account Daniel used, and John after him, forty two months, reckoning A DAY FOR A YEAR after the prophetic style, make 1260 YEARS..." Again, Preterists are wrong in their interpretation of the prophecies of the book of Revelation in asserting that the majority of them were fulfilled by 70 A.D. (or, by the fall of the Roman Empire in the 5th century A.D., as some other Preterists have said. Not only this, but Futurists are wrong in their interpretation of Revelation in asserting that the majority of the events will only occur during a [mythical] 7-year period at the end of time. The Reformers were neither Preterists, nor Futurists....THEY WERE HISTORICISTS! We should study what Historicists, like the Reformers who wrote on Bible prophecy, had to say about it. Questions? Let me know. *Soli Deo Gloria*
@ 0:22, I'm glad Doug Wilson states explicitly that, "Most contemporary Postmillennialists are also Preterists..." I really appreciate when Postmillennialists are honest about what they believe; since it's very difficult to get them to actually walk through Revelation 20 in defense of their [erroneous] Postmillennial views, at least Doug is honest enough to admit that, "most...Postmillennialists are also Preterists". And this is precisely why most of these folks are NOT Confessionally oriented. For example, they cannot hold to either the Westminster or 1689 Baptist Confessions of Faith, since these are both HISTORICIST documents...they don't support Preterism, nor do they support Futurism (Dispensational, or otherwise). Again, I am grateful that Doug was honest about how most Postmillennialists are Preterists. HISTORICISM: the only proper way to read and interpret the books of Daniel and Revelation. Daniel ch. 2 & 7, for example, give us the entire panorama of Bible prophecy, from the time of Daniel all the way up to the 2nd Advent of Christ...and beyond. These chapters give us HISTORICISM; not Futurism, or Preterism. Hope this helps. *Soli Deo Gloria*
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly -1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31 -NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here. -There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3 - @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam -Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib] -The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after REV 1-4 in 11:4 -CANDLESTICK = church -[REV 1:20] -I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses] LUKE21:18-19 -so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels. REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24 -he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually -DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..." -2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." -In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ" -don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you, -don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign, -don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment, -it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God. -REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." -(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies. -The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!) -The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8. -I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22] -& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5 -There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture -REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful" -Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it! -I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse. youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Have you read the history concerning what happened in A.D. 70? It was horrible! The people of Jerusalem would certainly have thought that their world was coming to an end. In fact, that era did come to an end at that point.
Really? The worst tribulations that the world has ever seen happened in 70 AD. I doubt it. Then again there had to have been a mass resurrection. Then Christ was supposed to rule here with the saints in glorified bodies for 1000 years before Satan getting released for a little bit longer but it’s already been 2000 years. Also there should have been the judgement of humanity at the white throne, didn’t happen. We earth and new heaven didn’t happen. If you think we live in the 1000 year reign then please explain to me genocide, child sex trafficking, and rapes. If you can explain to my how that’s allowed when it’s supposed to be 1000 years of peace then we can go from there
I have always thought the end time prophecies, just like the prophecy of Jesus in the Old Testament , actually refers to 2 different events. The destruction of Israel is a pattern of the events that will happen to the entire world. Futurism and Preterism are both correct. Yes the prophecy has already been fulfilled and yes it will be fulfilled again.
Doug uses a lot of philosophy and theology mixed with his own interpretations to convey absolutely nothing.. The worlds history according to Doug... Please stop with the intellectual babble.. You speak ..but say nothing.. Or maybe it is me not listening... You are not Jesus Doug.. Jesus would have left you blind and walked away...
+Les Nagy why? Because what he says doesn't fit the Left Behind model of fear you desperately hold to instead of a real eschatology of victory in Christ?
Yes, I tend to agree with you Anasakis. It is Both-And. Eschatology is a complex subject, and prophecy is filled with both the literal and non-literal. I am open-minded about post-mil though.
mmmmm i don't know about that Jesus Christ destroyed the 2nd temple for a reason The Nation of Israel today by and large don't even believe in God much less know about Jesus to be guilty of rejecting him.
I don't know how everything will turn out in the future, and I do not believe we can know in the Bible exactly what will take place. But I am absolutely certain about one thing: we're all gonna be amazed at how wrong we all got it. Think about the incarnation: what person before that figured out how God was going to pull this off? Which prophet had it nailed down what Jesus was going to be like and how He would save His people? None of them. They all had parts, they all had a few bits of the puzzle, but nobody knew or could have predicted it. Just like now. We all have bits from the Bible, we all have the pieces, but none of us are putting them together the way God will. And to insist on one way or another, stridently, its not just mistaken, its arrogant.
He had a valid point. If he is right though, the book of Revelation should never have been written or at least kept as it would have been unnecessary for us who come later and actually a horrible misguidance. There’s no way around that one
Thanks Jan. What do you think about verses like Revelation 13:18 -- that John intended his audience to be able to figure out the important historical clues of Revelation? He wouldn't have thought of it as "misguidance" -- he says, basically, "figure out who I'm talking about" (Nero). (I think a similar thing is going on with Matthew 24's "let the reader understand.")
Canon Press yes you may have a point. That’s why I can’t have a very neat system to my eschatology. I think it may go something like “hey it’s Nero and he will go and come back again in a worse Nero later” think that fits with the one who was and died but came again idea of the antichrist. Dr Michael Heiser has a good fair take on all this and you an find here on UA-cam. Bless you
@@christvictoriouskingdomnow2473 Absolut, Matthäus Endzeit-Rede und die Offenbarung wurden alle beide vor 70.nach Christus niedergeschrieben. Daher müsste sich alles erfüllt haben. Grüße
Absolutely Correct, but many see the Antichrist as come and gone.Some see the Antichrist as a system , etc but we know everyone in history past won’t be compared to the coming Person
Cerinthus couldn't be the false prophet in Revelation. He's a Gnostic Ebionite, so would not be telling people to worship the Roman Emperor. Salvation is through strict adherence to the law, the primary principle of that including worshiping only the One true God. He would, therefore, not fit the description in Thessalonians, where he exalts himself above every god. I find it interesting that Preterists are in need of pinning the antichrist tail on the heretical donkey, but have no real candidates for it that fit the descriptions. Part of this is because the designations likely refer to different persons/groups, and not all the same person. Context is king and it is often ignored to support these eschatological paradigms.
I know that many people agree with Mr. Wilson's end times theology but it really takes a lot of assumptions that I just don't see being well grounded. I may be wrong but I'll take my chances on my views
They’re not even assumptions. They are complete distortions of much of the text, and complete disregard and ignorance of the rest. I’ve followed this resurgence of post mill teaching for a while now and it has taken a strong hold in my congregation. Anytime I’ve confronted them with a plethora of scriptures that blatantly contradict what they believe they just dismiss it as allegory. It’s such an inconsistent hermeneutic. Ear tickling doctrine that people gravitate towards because they don’t have to suffer the tribulation, same as the pre tribulation rapture. These people argue like these are the only two options.
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." Matt 24:18 So that has happened already?
Yep -- The reason we know that is Jesus says this tribulation would take place before the people in the generation he's talking to die (Matt 24:34). The Old Testament prophets used apocalyptic language just like what Jesus says to prophesy the judgement or downfall of a city or nation (eg, Assyria, Babylon, Sumeria, Syria). Jesus takes that kind of language and applies it to the downfall of Jerusalem and Israel.
You see I just simply can’t buy that. I’m looking into post millennialism (watching Jeff Durbin) like I’m trying to find out what’s the truth but I’m on the fence everywhere
No offense, my brother, but I think you have been looking through your theological glasses so long that you can't see anything but what you've been trained to see. Ironically, I've come across premil people who not only think the same of their system as you think of yours, but think as lowly of your "delusion" as you think of theirs. Every eschatological system has its strengths and weaknesses. Preterism seems the weakest to me, but I am still looking into it. Btw, Left Behind isn't theology.
@@finalsecretofchrono1339 After looking into it, I think premil pre-trib has the best biblical evidence, but there are also good arguments against it. Pre-mil is bulletproof, but the pre-trib position isn’t.
@@rlh125 interesting discovery, thanks for sharing. I knocked off pre-trib as a deception (scriptures like 2 thess 2 blow pre-trib out of the water) and am looking through premil, postmil, amil…..premil looks bulletproof so far.
The problem is this. If you’re a postmillenialist, you have to, as Doug says, be a preterist. The major issue with this is that Revelation was written AFTER Nero died.
I had the same question. Then I read the Revelation by myself, several times in a row. It all became obvious. Can I make a suggestion? Read the Bible chronologically. It all becomes more obvious.
A problem with the Post millennial view is that they believe Christ is ruling NOW. But Revelation 11 has the two witnesses being killed and then raised to life after three and a half days. And it says their enemies will SEE them ascend into Heaven. Then you have a great earthquake in Jerusalem that kills 7000 people. Then the seventh trumpet sounds and NOW it says, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (notice the kingdoms of the world don't become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ UNTIL the seventh trumpet is sounded. Surely you don't think the 7th trumpet is at the very beginning of this spiritual millennial reign?") 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.” This says the time of Judgment has come for the wicked and the time of reward for the prophets and the saints. I'm sorry, all this has NOT happened even yet, let alone in the first century.
To quote myself in a recent response to a recent reply to a comment of mine: "The point is not why those folks acted. The point is that the vast majority of the Church back then didn't view the Roman attack as fulfilling prophecy. A false ethic picked up from Jewish Tradition back then was to apply prophecy to current events via trivial overlaps while ignoring the absence of other more fundamental details. (ergo, Matthew's use of prophecy in his gospel - I can't remember if this was called pesher or one of the other terms I'm forgetting). So an army showing up and surrounding Israel would automatically be viewed as fulfilling prophecy to many in that situation - not so for those outside of the situation. Hence why you see the Church still looking forward after that even occured. Again, I state that Paul even warns against preterism prior to his death. A lot of the things that he tells the people to look for are solid historical events that are couched in demonic insurgence and false miracles, similar to Revelation, similar to Yeshua's prophecies. This is what the Church was looking forward to: the Satan finally revealing himself, establishing the Antichrist, administering the spirit of Antichrist as he reveals his true religion, establishing himself above all religions and gods/Gods as he scraps and ravages paganism, and setting up the counterfeit Zion in Israel with an idol (his Antichrist, the man of lawlessness) seating in the Holy of Holies as his throne room. None of that has happened yet."
But all one needs to do is look around. Christ is not enthroned in earth, Ezekiels temple is not built, the promised land is not divided nor inhabited like Ezekiel promised. Things arent getting better and better, they are getting worse and worse. How in the world anyone can look at anything post 70 AD and say, "yup, God's kingdom is on earth as it is in heaven" is beyond me. I mean really, this is the new heaven and the new earth? Really? Babylon is fallen? Really?
Luke 21:8 Do not be deceived many will come in my name saying 'I am he' when Jesus returns see the ressurected saints past and present with their glorified bodies with our Lord Jesus Christ riding upon white horses Rev 9:11
That is the position of the premillennial and why they do nothing but sit around and do nothing. You are creating a straw man that is false. Post mil folks look at history and acknowledge that things are getting better and admit that it is a very prideful position to assume that America is representative of the global state of Christianity. Having traveled over seas in the last decade I am fully aware that there are places in the world that are ugly and also others that are over 95% active professing Christians, and their societies are being blessed because of it
1) How can Nero be the man of lawlessness standing in the Holy place whom Christ would kill with his coming (2 Thess 2) if he died of suicide 2 years before the temple destruction? 2) In Titus 2:12-13, Paul tells us that in the “present age”, the church is “waiting” for the “blessed hope” of Christ’s coming. The disciples ask what the signs of the “end of the age” will be. Both the disciples and Paul were alive before 70 AD during the same “age”, so if the temple destruction somehow marks the end of the Jewish age, then, under the Preterist view, the temple destruction would have to have been the “blessed hope” Paul was talking about. This is hardly in God’s character to be comforted by the death of the wicked. What do preterists do with this discrepancy? It makes way more sense for the end of the Jewish age to have been when the curtain was rent at Calvary, but that doesn’t work either because the events of Matt. 24 would have happened way after that even in the Preterist view. 3) Jesus states at the end of Matt. 23 that Jerusalem would not “see” him again until they called him blessed, and then later says that after the tribulation the tribes of the earth would “see” the son of man approaching. Did the Jews call Christ blessed when he allegedly “came” to destroy their temple? 4) At the end of Revelation 19, it seems that all who worshipped the beast were slain. Why then was it only the Jews? The pagans were known to actually worship their emperors. Shouldn’t they have been slain too? And why is the beast’s army (the Roman army) carrying out the judgement on those who worship him instead of Christ? This makes no sense to me. And of course as stated in point #1, Christ would have had to slay the beast before 70 AD anyway since Nero was already dead. 5) Did someone stand in the Temple and claim to be Yahweh in 70 AD? I cant find anything anywhere. 6) If most of Revelation took place by 70 AD, why did John write Revelation to all the churches in Asia about events that would come upon Jerusalem almost a thousand miles away? Wouldn’t he have instead warned the Jerusalem church of the events to come? What hour of wrath was the Church of Philadelphia being kept from? (Rev. 3:10) The events of Revelation would have been of no consequence to anyone but the Jews, so it makes zero sense for him to write to Christians all over and not actually write to those being affected by the events. This is especially confusing since those “coming out of the tribulation” in Revelation 7 are from all nations. The whole point is that they didn’t worship the beast, UNLIKE EVERYONE ELSE, and were punished with death by the beast. This stands in sharp contrast to 70 AD where 1.1 million Jews were slain. Did they all refuse to worship the beast? If so, then why were they judged by God with wrath in the first place? I’m sorry, there are so many holes in this system.
Very well stated…..these questions certainly add to others I’ve had. I like to explore why Christians believe the way they do, but preterism/post millennial theology makes no sense to me. Preterists seem to not understand how 1000 years means 1000 years. The Bible says satan will be locked up for a thousand years and then set loose for a short season….that sounds to me like at the end of a thousand years, he’ll be set loose. When was he ever locked up for a thousand years? What about the land covenant that God made with Abraham? The Israelites have never possessed it all. Sorry guys, but this view has spiritualized so many things that God says is going to happen. I don’t think anyone could ever have justification to do that to His Word.
See, the entire hermeneutical framework of Covenant Theology (if you wanna call it that-terms run the risk of overgeneralizing though) is built upon a premise that the “Old Covenant” and “New Covenant” are actually the same covenant of Grace set forth by God after the fall, and that they merely take different forms. If that’s your starting point, then it seems perfectly logical to take all the Old Testament promises to Israel and apply them to God’s “covenant people” today. They view the church not as just the elect saints, but as a new covenant people in the church age, such that you can actually be part of the covenant people without necessarily being saved. This is why they baptize infants-to identify them with the covenant people the way Israel did with circumcision. The main problem, I think, is this: the new covenant is clearly in Christ’s blood. Because of this, it is a covenant into which one is grafted by BELIEF (Romans 11:13-24 explains this very clearly). This is an entirely different type of covenant than the Old Testament covenants because this covenant is conditional, the condition being that a person has belief and is one of the elect saints. The Old Testament covenants are unconditional and eternal. There is no indication that they will ever pass away or be revoked for any reason, and Romans 11:29 makes this abundantly clear. With that in mind as a basic principle, one arrives at the exact conclusion that you have, namely that the covenant promises to Israel have not yet been fulfilled. To spiritualize them is to not only change their essence, but also rob the people to which they were originally promised. This is not to even mention that the curses upon Israel in the early chapters of the prophets covenantalists view as applying to Israel, but that the promises apply to the new covenant people, an inconsistent reading to be sure. Once you understand that the Old Testament promises have not yet been fulfilled, your entire understanding of prophecy is centered around the idea that in the future, there will be a kingdom as promised by God in the Old Testament where Israel’s unfulfilled promises will be completed, and then before you know it, you’re a “dispensationalist” who believes in a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. It’s very interesting how the basic underlying principles can radically change one’s entire theological framework. But I agree that the postmil, Preterist view is laden with a plethora of issues and takes idealist stances where it ought not to.
Let's be humble when discussing this very tough book and surrounding books. I will try to help in your understanding of these questions. I do not claim to know all but I can shed some light of the preterist view in some of these areas. God give us wisdom as we all hunt for truth, God bless you brother, have a great weekend, I hope this helps even a little. 1- The man of lawlessness is Nero. He is the one who is lawless and desires to sit in the temple. He thought of himself as Apollo, the sun God, he minted coins with his head on it with rays of sun going out all directions to emulate Apollo. When the Parthian King Tiridates came before Nero he set down his crown before him and said "I praise you as my God the spinner of my fate". Nero thought of himself as God. When it says "he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" - The Greek language there is such that he desired to do so. Luke 4:29 " and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff." Same Greek language used, they didn't throw him over the cliff. "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time." Claudius is in power, as long as Claudius is alive Nero cannot cause any trouble or show himself a danger to anybody. But once Claudius dies, Nero ascends the throne and he can soon thereafter show himself to be the evil man we know him to be. ***Claudius is based off the latin word Claudere ("shut up"), from claudere ("to bar, block, close, enclose, bring an end to, confine)*** Effectively the restraining is a person name 'to restrain'. Nero's mother Agrippina is married to Claudius and she poisons Claudius so Nero her son can come to power. This was around AD54. 2 Thes 2:7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work" - Agrippina is at work in the background plotting to kill Claudias so her son Nero can take power. 2 Thes 2:8 "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." In scripture the coming of God is regarding a judgment coming from God to a particular people as in Isa 19:1. Nero died in 68 just before the temple was destroyed. He died according to the providence of God. Paul inerprets this in religious reality instead of saying Nero killed himself because his gaurd caused him to commit suicide. It is Jesus destroying him with his own sword just before he comes to judgment against the temple. 2) The destruction of the Temple was Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven in Matt 24 3) "“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ "
4) In short Revelation is a judgment upon Jerusalem. In long to give some detail for understanding. From AD30 to AD70 you have an overlap of two redemptive eras. As the old covenant is winding down after the ministry of Christ, the new covenant starts picking up. The old covenant era cannot continue forever. The destruction of the temple, secures the kingdom and vindicated the church's message. Rev 19:9-10 "9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Jesus had prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem, and now we see that in the confirmation of his prophecy there is celebration. Matt 8:11-12 could draw a parallel, "11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Here the gentiles are brought into the kingdom and the Jews are cast out -- effectively what is happening here in Revelation. AD70 events vindicate Christianity against Judaism. Seen in a lot of early church writings, Ref. : Writings of Taledo of Sardis, Tortolius apologies chapter 21 & 26, Tortolius Answer to the Jews 9 & 13, Tortolius Against Marsha chapter 3 & 5, Hipalitis credence on Christ and the antichrist, his expository credence against the Jews, against Noadus, Siprium's credences, Vitenentus's Divine Institutes. A lot of apologetic statements, by Christians against the Jews, pointing to the destruction of the temple in confirmation of the validity of the Christian faith. Matt 26:64 " Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” - Jesus said it to the Sanhedrin condemning him as well, coming to judgment, the clouds of heaven are going to crash down on you in judgment. The NT records the gradual establishment of the kingdom. Matt 13:31-33 "31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, 32 which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches. 33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Mustard seed growing gradually. Promised ministerial announcement Mark 1:15 " and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” The kingdom's legal securing at the cross, Matt 28:18, Romans 1:3-4, Col 2:14-15. To its public vindication in Israels overthrow. Recap: "The NT records the gradual establishment of the kingdom. Promised ministerial announcement. To its legal securing at the cross. T To its public vindication in Israel's overthrow. The removal of the temple system physically breaks down the dividing wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile - Which was legally broken in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ - Eph 2:14. The removal of the temple system ends zionistic tendences of many 1st century Christians. Acts 10, Peter goes to Cornelius's house and preaches the gospel, and Cornelius is converted - What did the elders and apostles back in Jerusalem think when they heard about Peter going to the gentle Cornelius's house? They rebuke him, what are you doing going in among the gentles? Then he says the Holy Spirit has been poured out among them and they all rejoice. Romans 14:1-8, Gal 1-5, Col 2:16, Titus 3:9. Zionistic tendencies of 1st century Christians, but after the fall of the temple it is obvious to all, irrefutably, that the ceremonial system is gone. Because of all this, Christianity has established herself as a separate religion. Israel has gone through birth pains and has brought forth a new faith, Christianity - of course it isn't really new, it is a continuation of the true old faith. New as far as Judaism is concerned b/c they deny their old faith. The bridegroom appears. The divorce and punishment of his wife justify the marriage. Rev 19:11-21 "11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh." Jesus comes as a warrior bridegroom in punishing faithful Israel and taking this new bridge. Christ is Israel's ultimate judge. Matt 24:29-30 - he says comes with clouds upon them, Matt 26:64 - High priest will live to see the judgment. When we see him here he makes war against her, another iteration of that war and he finishes her off. The judgment upon Jerusalem is so severe there is no proper burial - she is consumed by birds. The worst indignity in that culture was to be left outside without a proper burial. Wars 5-12-3, the bodies were cast over the walls. Wars 5-12-4 'those valleys, saw them full of dead bodies, and the thick putrefaction running about them' Many crowns on his head - affirms in another way he has all authority on heaven and on Earth. It is an apocalyptic way of saying that, Rev 19:12 same as Matt 28:18. Or it is another way of saying Eph 1:21 " he far above all rule, power, authority and dominion" Or Phil 2:9 "the name that is above every name". Or that he has angels, authorities and powers in submission to him - 1 Peter 3:22. He proves that he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords in a very public magnificent way. This does sound a lot like the 2nd advent. Rev 19 is an expansion of Rev 1:7 which itself is based itself out of Matt 24:29-30, And both Revelation and Matthew have events that are soon, near and in this generation. Destruction of the Beast Rev 19:19-21 "19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh." The primary concern is Israel and then he only mentions the beast in passing. Almost like he is insignificant, the beast is Rome, and of course that isn't insignificant. But he spends a lot of time going over Israel then says oh and we defeated the beast as well and sweeps on past it. Nero was killed in AD68, during the time of the harlot being judged. Jewish war AD67, Nero died in AD68 + Roman civil war, Temple destroyed AD70. This all happens during Christ's judgment. Nero dies in Christ's coming, the focus is on Jerusalem. We see the demise of the beast, but we see the harlot's demise in great detail. We see the beast die by the sword in Rev 13 - which is how Nero did die. Rev 19 the beast and the armies were assembled to fight, Titus thought that in destroying the temple he would destroy Christianity with it - he thought that was the case, so they're all gathered together. Birds eating the flesh is commonly for judgment upon officials and rulers. This imagery is for judgment upon national officials, on civil rulers. Ref; Jer 34:17-20, Deut 28:25-26, Psalm 79:3.
5) Titus was then being praised and worshiped in the Temple: Jospehus War 6 6-1, And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple, (18) and set them over-against its eastern gate. And there did they offer sacrifices to them: and there did they make Titus Imperator (19) with the greatest acclamations of joy 6) 144,000 - Every time a full 1,000 is used it is symbolic in Revelation. Thousand is symbolic in so many scriptures throughout the Bible. 10x10x10 is a number of perfect, 10 fingers, 10 toes. Book full of symbols this is very, very likely not literal - exactly 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. -Events must be in the first century, Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3. -Judgments are falling upon Israel, Rev 1:9 - theme verse -Apostolic Christianity tends to focus on Jerusalem, Acts 1:4 - After his resurrection go to Jerusalem and wait for power from the mountain on high. Acts 1:8 , Acts 18:21, Acts 20:16, Acts 24:11. Early church had a Jerusalem focus. This is where it all started. It is where Pentacost was, where Jerusalem council in Acts 15. Apostles were headquartered there Acts 8:1. -John in this book considers non Chrstian Jews to be so-called Jews, not of the synagogue of God but of Satan. Rev 2:9, Rev 3:9. Connections to John 8:31-48. These servants of God are from the 12 tribes of Israel, they must be Christian Jews. The fact that he is judging the Jews calling them the synagogue of Satan. They have the name of the Lamb written on their forehead. Much smaller number than the number in Rev 7:9, a multitude so large you cannot count. The 144,000 represents these Christian Jews inside Jerusalem, the angels stop the winds from blowing and create a time for them to escape. It represents a perfect number loved by God, marked by God, protected by the angels of God, and have the Lamb's name on their forehead. They're the True Jews. Romans 2:28-29 - defines the true Jew, inwardly not outwardly defines a true Jew. This isn't a racial judgment, it is a religious judgment as seen when these smaller number of Chrstian Jews are saved. Christians being sealed: 2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30, 2 Tim 2:19. Judgment is coming upon Israel, Jewish Christians are in Israel, God stops the destruction the winds of destruction form coming in and God lets them escape. Rev 6:17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" The next sentence Rev 7:1 Angels hold the window and then explain its God's people who can escape the wrath - the 144,000. W/o a chapter break, it would be much more obvious. Ezek 9:4-9 - Strong correspondance to this part of Revelation. Ezekiel is saying those who are marked by God in Jerusalem are saved from judgment. These are the first fruits from Jerusalem on Pentacost, they're providentially protected by God. Matt 24:16-22 = when you see the abomination flee to the mountains. Acts 2 when they were gathered in Jerusalem Peter preached and 3000 were converted, when they sold their goods and had all things in common, now that was a movement of the Holy Spirit in light of those that owned land in 40 years in Jerusalem, it would be worth nothing. Zero value, they sell the land tho and split the value among brothers. Only place anything like that happens, all the land sold and divided amongst themselves. The imagery is the angels stopping the winds, stopping Vespasian from rampaging in and killing the Christians inside, giving them a break to escape. The historical correspondence: Nero was emperor at the time in AD68, His best general is Gadius Vespasian and a lesser general Titus who was Vespasian's son. When Nero heard about the revolt of the Jews, he commissions Vespasian to go down and handle the rebellion. Vespasian and Titus had the city of Jerusalem circled, no one could get out. Wars 4:9:1, "1. And now Vespasian had fortified all the places round about Jerusalem, and erected citadels at Jericho, and Adida, and placed garrisons in them both: partly out of his own Romans, and partly out of the body of his auxiliaries. He also sent Lucius Annius to Gerasa; and delivered to him a body of horsemen, and a considerable number of footmen. So when he had taken the city, which he did at the first onset, he slew a thousand of those young men, who had not prevented him by flying away. But he took their families captive; and permitted his soldiers to plunder them of their effects. After which he set fire to their houses, and went away to the adjoining villages. While the men of power fled away, and the weaker part were destroyed; and what was remaining was all burnt down. And now the war having gone through all the mountainous country, and all the plain country also, those that were at Jerusalem were deprived of the liberty of going out of the city. For as to such as had a mind to desert, they were watched by the zealots. And as to such as were not yet on the side of the Romans, their army kept them in, by encompassing the city round about on all sides." But Nero committed suicide in AD68 and they stopped the seige and pulled back from the seige to wait and see what is happening in Rome. Then Galbo becomes emperor and reigns for 6 months, then Otho becomes emperor and reigns for 3 months, then Vetillius. Then Vespasian's officers back in Rome declared the Emperor ruler of Rome and Vespasian withdraws all together and goes back to Rome. The Jews thought it was a sign from God that he was not going to judge them when Rome withdrew from the siege. Gallius Nov AD66 started to wage war against the Jews, he was the assyrian governor for Rome - he started to war to Jerusalum but stopped and went back and the Jews thought - God is with us. Then Vespasian comes after that and this happens again, they think God is on our side. They begin building up their supplies once more, but the Christians leave b/c they have the voice of Christ - Luke 21:20 telling them "“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Rev 7:9-17 The small seed of 144,000 whom God protects will soon grow to a huge multitude of which no one can number of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. Christianity weathers the great tribulation and Judaism is destroyed.
If the age to come was the coming Christian age from Christ's perspective then explained this: Luke 20: 34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come(Z) and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.
This is destroying all terrestrial millenium to come we are in the millenium or the golden age of the reign in Christ in al is elects. Phil.3:18 For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,…
Even the phrase partial preterist is deceitful as the only dif between partial and full is partial does believe in future resurrection and full belives its past, Might better be called 99%ers Both incredible unbiblical to unbelief
@@blibbers8843 Why is catholicism the largest denomination, Why did only 800 pastors refuse to bow to Hitler in a 70 Million population WHy did only 7 K bow down to bael The wide and the narrow road is it not? Honestly, I ran into this rabbit hole month and half ago and can't get any biblical argument yet, Not one, I listen to many from Jeff Durbin Doug Wilson RC Sproul, Gently and several others Many each as well as many debates None has a reasonable biblical defense of it, None can really Fill in the AOD I have heard I believe 5 different arguments on this nothing comes close to fitting scripture None Can Explain 2 thess 2 in a reasonable way Neither at least 2 dozen other scripture that easily cannot be answered There are a lot of other problems too But Scripture is enough, But they need this preterism to keep there man-centered postmillennial theology '
@@victorcritelli5790 all do those questions are red herrings, and have nothing to do with the question I asked. Why is preterism unsatisfactory for 2 Thessalonians 2?
If the first Christians didn't see the prophecies fulfilled in the past that's a good indicator that they were taught by the Apostles to expect something that past history didn't fulfill. In fact, in one of the Thessolonians, I believe, Paul actually addresses the spiritualism of prophecy that showed up in his day.
@Nixolas Leonardo Since the time of Paul there has been billions of antichrist as is today. To deny JESUS the CHRIST is antichrist. 2\3rds of the world fall into this definition. What a watchman needs to watch for is the beast that being an empire or caliphate. Islam fits the definition perfectly reading from Dan 11:36-45. Most important is it surrounds Isreal, it hates Isreal and want's to destroy Isreal. A Preterest needs Isreal out of GOD's plan and the church to take their place. Not happening as history and current events proves preterest and postmillennialism in total error. 70 weeks are determined for thy people and thy Holy City. As any one can see both still exist and take up most of the news an UN agenda.
Question for postmillennialists- when Jesus talked about the temple being destroyed, wasn’t that in response to the talk about His second coming? He didn’t come in 70 AD, so how can this be true?
The gospel specifically says he was talking about his own body being destroyed, and that the Jews misunderstood Him and thought he meant the literal temple.
I have been google searching images from all over the world from 1800’s China, Thailand, India, Hong Kong, Australia, Vietnam, Africa, Cuba, Mexico Japan, Chile everywhere has incredible old world architecture that is identical in design and building materials and angles and measurements how is this possible without a period in time the entire world was unified and in peace, these old world structures are cymaticly perfect in the acoustic frequencies they generate, something that we have only just now discovered how to record, all these beautiful structures have a building finger print that can be scientifically used to prove all these structures have common features! I think is fair to assume because of this information that the 1000 years has passed and we are in the Short Season of Satans deception
You probably won't see my question here, but I'm trying to understand this and the one thing that pops out for me is that you're just replacing one kind of dispensationalism with another. Indeed, the 40 years between the crucifixion and 70 AD, the old whatever you want to call it - the old covenant, ended. The Jews/Hebrews had that period to make the transition. But you could call that a transition from one dispensation to another. That's really just nitpicking on my part, but I'm finding the need for precision with the terminology to be critical for understanding this from a doctrinal standpoint. Thanks.
The word isn't the problem. The Westminster Confession also describes these transitions in terms of dispensations. But the word isn't the system of thought known as dispensationalism.
Nope, full preterism still doesn't make sense. Even if emperor Nero was the beast, was Caiaphas the high priest the Antichrist then? Obviously not, so the Antichrist still had not entered the Temple.
How about the whole of 2nd Thes 2 Or the AOD? Or even the fact that Jesus coming in the clouds is supposed to be the judgment on Isreal, Yet no matter how you slice it scripture says it is after it just does not work out timewise, Also the entire book of rev many daniel passages Ohh And so many many more
How anyone can carefully review the preterist position and still come away as a futurist is mind boggling to me. This is how Paul must have felt after clearly laying out all the evidence for Jesus's "Christhood" and then seeing the Jews bow up and still stubbornly refuse to believe. There is a whole lot of "knat straining" and "camel swallowing" going on in the Left Behind crowd. When you apply Occam's Razor to this issue you are either left with Jesus was deluded or the preterist position.
I appreciate Doug Wilson's fair treatment and charitable explanations of idealism, futurism, historicism, and preterism, but I must insist that it takes an astounding amount of mental gymnastics to convince oneself of the supposed correctness of preterism, especially its thoroughgoing ("full") variant. Any normal Christian who reads the Book of Revelation with no preconceived ideas will arrive at the futurist interpretation. Historicism and idealism are at least moderately reasonable interpretations, but full preterism is utterly bizarre. So-called evidence of preterism can only be found eisegetically, not exegetically - and it is almost always magnanimous intellectuals and theologians who are convinced of the supposed truth of full preterism.
the age TO COME Teach by Paul cannot be the Christian age because the present age was there till the Pentecost so this age to come it's our eternal state with Christ in Heaven. Mr Doug you forget the A-MILL POSITION in your enumerations ????
@Nero IV Because this world in under the seductions of the devil till the end.In the present time we receive so many glorious benedictions in the Heavenly realm with persecutions but in the age to come or the world to come (our city is in heaven) we will receive eternal life. Mark10:29 And Jesus answered and said, “Verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands for My sake and the Gospel’s, 30 but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the world to come, eternal life.
Too much tap dancing. The spirit of prophecy is evident throughout the NT. I believe he has more "problem passages" to contend with than does the futurist.
Doug, could I ask why Kenneth Gentry believes we are still in the old age and the age to come is not until Christ returns in our future? He believes Matt 24: 36 onward is reference to our future and was not fulfilled by 70CE
Most PostMils skip over a lot of scripture. A basic question would be - if Christ bore the wrath of God, on the cross, in my stead, and Christians are no longer "destined for wrath", then what do you make of the tribulation, in which we see God pour wrath on the earth? Does the church endure wrath? Bible says they will not.
@@xanderLudahl _"Most PostMils skip over a lot of scripture."_ I feel the same about premil. _"if Christ bore the wrath of God, on the cross, in my stead, and Christians are no longer "destined for wrath", then what do you make of the tribulation, in which we see God pour wrath on the earth?"_ The tribulation seems to be warning "this generation" of "things that must soon take place" and was fulfilled with the events leading up to and following the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The warnings given were exactly so that the church could see the signs and escape the siege, which history reports they did. _"Does the church endure wrath? Bible says they will not."_ Correct, they escaped the wrath by listening to Jesus's warnings. _"How do you explain Revelation 19, the "wedding supper" of Christ?"_ It seems to be part of the events on the day of judgement and final day of this age as we transition to the eternal state. I'm not sure if you have a specific concern about it. _"How do you define the army in Rev 19:14?"_ The rider on the white horse with the double-edged sword is a motif throughout Rev, e.g. 1: 16; 2: 12, 16; 6: 1. He is Christ going through the nation conquering with the double-edged sword coming from his mouth, that is the gospel. The army clad in fine linen is his people, his bride, Christians, and we the same dress on them in verse 8. We can see several parallel accounts in Rev of the final moments as different enemies are all cast down and the final day commences. We see their final defeat, the final judgement, the marriage supper of the lamb, and the commencement of the eternal state where heaven and earth are made one. _"These are all easy answers"_ Agreed, I don't know why you think they would be difficult for Postmil or why you haven't heard it before.
Why do people think that 'the spirit of antichrist' or 'the spirit of error' will become, or be born, as a man? That seems impossible! Only God can do the impossible, Jesus says.
@@Amencore Well in that case, it could be a corporate 'man of sin'' revealed to be as 'the son of perdition' (2Thes.2:3) betraying Christ 'and the church', as well as the Gospel. Why else would Paul use the image of the one 'lost' if not 'the son of perdition' in Jesus' high-priestly prayer (Jn.17:12)...as first Paul writes, 'That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand' (2Thes.2:2). This corporate man is the evil governments of this world 'showing themselves that they are a god', hating that any other god should be worshipped (2Thes.2:4), as 'this mystery of iniquity' was 'already working' when Paul penned this letter, and continues until Christ destroys it 'with the brightness of His coming' (2Thes.2:7,8). And we will overcome this beast/dragon 'by the blood of the Lamb, and by the Word of our testimony; and as we love not our lives unto death' (Rev.12:11). This beast/dragon 'knoweth that it hath but a short time' and is wroth with the Woman[Christ's church], and comes to make war with the remnant of her seed, which are keeping the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ' (Rev.12:12,17). The 'everlasting gospel' is saying to us, 'Fear God [alone], and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come...' (Rev.14:6,7). Know this: 'Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus'!!! (Rev.14:13). By faith and patience we too shall overcome (Rev.21:7,8).
@@CanonPress Notice what I said a year ago, that 'a spirit of fear' would most likely become literal in this world... "to deceive men. (2Tim.1:7)" You, and others, seem to be 'pinning the tail on the donkey', Nero, in your interpretations. This matter is 'spiritual', just as Jerusalem in 'spiritually' implied in Rev.11:8. Ungodly Judaism goes back to Babylon with its interpretations, as Christ-hating Jews today still use their babylonian talmud to deceive. This unfaithful woman is the mother of harlots, and is still 'in bondage with her children' (Gal.4:25, Rev.17:3-7, 17,18).
The phrase “keep you from” in Rev. 3:10 is “tereo se ek” in Greek. Tereo appears 75 times in the Bible and is translated “keep” 57 of those. “Se” means “you”, and “ek”which is translated “from” in Rev. 3:10 is often translated “out of”. It literally means to be out of both the time and place of the event it concerns. Therefore it’s correct to say that the Lord will keep the Church out of the time and place of the hour of trial being referenced in Rev. 3:10. This translation makes Rev. 3:10 agree with 1 Thes. 1:10 where Paul said the Lord will rescue (deliver) the church from the wrath to come. John 17:15 is part of a prayer that begins in John 17:6 and continues through John 17:19. Jesus was offering it on behalf of His disciples who were there with Him on the night of His arrest. Some try to use this verse as an argument against the pre-Trib rapture. But to do so, they have to change both the purpose and scope of His prayer, which was to seek divine protection from Satan for His disciples.
@@donhaddix3770 Actually, if you really look in a Greek concordance it can also mean "from." If you join that in context with 'keep" Greek Tereo which means to guard or protect by keeping the eye on, it does NOT mean removal.
@@donhaddix3770 If the verse in context meant remove like you suggest, then all that was needed was "ek" why add "tereo" which as I have already stated, means to guard by keeping the eye on. It is also used in John 17:15, where it says, "I do NOT pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should KEEP them from the evil one." Notice, keep in this verse is "Tereo" which means to guard by keeping the eye upon. Notice this verse has Jesus praying to the Father NOT to take them out of the world, BUT to watch over them and protect them form Satan.
So what are the characteristics of the millennium? Is Satan bound or loose during the millennium, and is Satan bound or loose right now? And does post-millennium mean the entire millennium has past, hence the word post, or that the beginning of the millennium has past and we are currently in the millennium? Hope that makes sense.
One feature of the millennial period is that the kingdom will enter the world small (like a pebble, a bit of yeast, or a mustard seed to point to some analogies), spread over time, and when the kingdom is complete, it will fill the whole earth. The pre- post- etc part is about the timing of the bodily return of Christ. On postmil, he returns at the completion of the work of the millennial kingdom. The kingdom is understood to be the church, a kingdom not of this world or like the kingdoms of this world, that started when Jesus was ministering here on earth and 2000 years ago only had 40 people, yet has grown to the point today where around 3 billion people and 1/3 of the total population at least nominally hold Jesus as their Lord. And it is still in the growth period and not yet finished with its mission to spread the gospel and disciple the nation's. Satan is bound and was bound at the cross and resurrection in the way scripture says: that he can't deceive the nations any more.
@@oracleoftroyhe’s bound? Please explain to my how there’s child sex trafficking, celebs worshipping Satan etc. if you think this is the 1000 year peace reign then idk what to tell you honestly
@@vladgor4099 Where does scripture say the binding of Satan would stop all sin? Scripture teaches that he will be bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations. I don't see why we have to interpret his bounds as being more restricted than scripture teaches.
@@oracleoftroy I can’t find my comment that you replied to, can you copy and paste what i said, i don’t remember saying that unless this was from a long time ago
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. In context of 1 Cor. 15, death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection of the church. So he will be putting his enemies under his feet until the rapture (which is after the Trib. BTW). and not in the millennium.
@@losgoodmusicmandrell8371 I would tend to agree with you, but in context, Paul is speaking about the resurrection of the dead in Christ. This should make us reexamine our position. I believe it is the Jews who go into the Age to come in unregenerate bodies, so they can reproduce and even die, as it says in Isaiah. But the church can do neither. Or maybe there really will be a golden age?
@@Mike65809 You must remember there will be both Jews & Gentiles who come to faith in Christ after the Rapture. So no scripture says only Jews who are living at the second Coming will populate the Millennium Kingdom. Both groups will enter into the Kingdom in their natural bodies. Zech. 14-14-18 confirms this truth.
The pre-millennial view is the only one that lines up with Zech 14:4 when the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ will step on the Mount of Olives. This event happens 1000 years before the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev 20:10-15. This one unfulfilled prophecy nullifies all other views.
This video is odd... I am confused guys. How can Postmillennialism be a preterist? That would mean that the millennial kingdom already happened, and afterwards the second coming came and he is in the past? That is not rational. Most Postmillennialism would be like.. Roman Catholic I think? And they think he is yet to come. Just my opinions but please check me out on facebook.com/jkoskinen I am also a real life messiah and a character representation of Superman.
The Preterist position is that most of the Biblical promises have been fulfilled, not all. The resurrection, return of Christ to earth, final judgement, glorification, and God's eternal dwelling with man on a renewed earth are still future. The judgements that were said to occur to "this generation" occurred to that generation to whom Jesus and John spoke to and were fulfilled in AD 70. The kingdom is here now and is the Church. It was a tiny mustard seed hiding or itty bitty pebble from heaven hiding in the upper room with a mere 40 believers, and in 2000 years has grown to billions of people worldwide, but it has not yet reached the fullness that God promises. I think the success of the kingdom is a pretty obvious thing to see if we look globally and not just focus on former Christian areas starting from the zenith of their Christianity. There is a heretical version knows as full-preterist that says all Biblical prophesy is fulfilled, but that is a very niche and problematic viewpoint.
@@oracleoftroy thanks man, I do sorta know that but its just really far off from my view so I often get worried that people maybe are confused? or just making it up for the viewership money? no offense just my noticing of things tho.
@@oracleoftroyfyi Islam is the faster growing religion right now and Christianity is getting ripped apart by LGBTQ invasion of churches. I wonder what your take on this is now considering how much further into hell the world got in just a short 2 years even though it’s supposed to be getting “ better “
@@vladgor4099 Look at the first two years of the American Civil war or WW2. The North and the Allies were losing just about every battle. By premil reckoning, they must have lost the war, right? I'm not premil, so I'm not looking for everything to be completed immediately and then disappointed and needing to revise everything every decade. Come back to me in another 500-1000 years or so and let's take a look at where things are. Or let's examine Church history over the last 2000 years in 500 year or 100 year chunks and see at a big picture whether the church is shrinking or growing. But even looking at those liberal denominations, are they growing? No. Islam is growing fast, yet when the church finally gets over dispensational/premil defeatism and starts believing God's promises again, we would regain that position.
I like the simplicity of truth, through the words of Christ, if quoted correctly. I'm not sure where I stand, maybe a 5th angle. According to Christ, the end ,(of the age? of the one who left us here returning? beginning of tribulation? when it comes to pass, all flesh obeys the ten commandments? end of earth, then new earth?), will come when the gospel OF THE KINGDOM, is preached throughout the world. I know for a fact, without genuine reform, there will be no end in my lifetime, or many lifetimes. So be concerned not, brethren, over any end, as the only end of importance, is judgement day. The current gospel, according to the vast majority of professing Christianity, isn't about the kingdom of God. Mt. 24:14 Mark 1:14-15
Truth. You are what the true Jesus calls a wise virgin. < And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
@@eltonron1558 YES. Therefore whosoever heareth _these sayings of mine,_ and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth _these sayings of mine,_ and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. > THESE sayings of *mine.*
@@eltonron1558 I just read some other comments you've posted on this channel. (YT shows the most recent 3) You appear to be one of the promised few who has eyes and ears... to see and hear. I'll leave it at that.
Also, the Greek word for "generation" can also mean "age." Inserting that into Jesus' words, "this age will certainly not pass away until all these things come to pass." That makes a WHOLE lot more sense, and it makes Jesus not look like he's trying to confuse everyone.
I’m a postmill preterist and I don’t entirely agree with Doug here. The Bible teaches us that in the last days there will be seasons/times of great difficulty. Meaning that the mountain of the house of the Lord, which in the LAST DAYS will grow above all other mountains and heal all nations, will grow steadily but not without seasons of extreme turbulence and persecution. This is to let us know there will be perilous “times” “seasons” of extraordinary difficulty throughout the church age, as the militant body of Christ advances steadily and eventually reconciles the whole world to God. As the parable in Mathew 20 tells us, there will be those hired for the Kingdom in later hours (later generations) who will “not bear the burden and scorching heat of the day” as those who advanced the Kingdom in earlier generations and faced far greater persecution and even martyrdom. Trying to relegate these truths merely to pre-70AD is really unnecessary. I’m preterist with Oliver discourse, Man of Lawlessness, Revelation and much of the NT imminency passages… but we need to guard ourselves from seeing everything through the preterist lense.
@@rosyrosy2073 There is not a theology easier to debunk than Preterism partial or whatever, I might say pretrib rapture too but preterism is so large of scripture and affects so much of theology it is scary, And its cornerstone is unbelief
@@victorcritelli5790 The second coming was PROPHESIED The Rapture was a MYSTERY and only revealed to the apostle Paul. Case closed 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 King James Version 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
if we are going to be honest all veiws have what one could call problem passages but preterisim I would say has the most issues ...its why people like sproul used to try hide his belief and present like he was just giving all the different point of veiws so people could make up their own minds but anyone who had spent any consideral time over the years studying theses different beliefs would know he was not presenting a full or honeswt picture of what others believed and cherry picked serverely for his own prefered preterism. 2 thes 2 1-12
Check out Doug's book on eschatology here:
canonpress.com/products/heaven-misplaced/
The thing I like about Doug Wilson and canon press, they present all sides. I grew up in church all my life and I never even heard these 4 views.
He is also good at not straw manning other views.
@@Bibleguy89-uu3nr that is a very respectable trait to have. Loving your neighbor by properly representing them
@@farmerpete0768 It certainly is. And I don’t formally hold any of those views.
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly
-1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31
-NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here.
-There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3
- @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam
-Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib]
-The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after
REV 1-4 in 11:4
-CANDLESTICK = church
-[REV 1:20]
-I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses]
LUKE21:18-19
-so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels.
REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24
-he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually
-DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..."
-2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
-In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ"
-don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you,
-don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign,
-don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment,
-it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God.
-REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
-(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies.
-The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!)
-The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8.
-I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22]
-& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5
-There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture
-REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful"
-Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it!
-I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse.
youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Preterists like to espouse all of the eschatological views to make it seem like their view is held in the same regard. Its not, nor is it a tenable eschatological position.
This is so important. It gives a whole new perspective from which to understand eschatology.
Revelation FINALLY made more sense to me, when I decided to read it from a preterist viewpoint, however I do believe in a Final Great White Throne Judgement Day, in the future yet to come.
If the first Christians didn't see the prophecies fulfilled in the past that's a good indicator that they were taught by the Apostles to expect something that past history didn't fulfill. In fact, in one of the Thessolonians, I believe, Paul actually addresses the spiritualism of prophecy that showed up in his day. In short, it shouldn't be about what makes sense to you.
@@blanktrigger8863 I'm not sure I'm understanding your point. Are you saying? that I shouldn't be expected to try and understand Revelation when I'm reading it?
@@elizabeths4371 I don't know how you got that out of anything that I said tbh.
@@blanktrigger8863 I got the first part but not this -"In short, it shouldn't be about what makes sense to you."
@@elizabeths4371 That part refers to the approach that most people take towards the bible, that it should make sense to their subjectivsm.
I am ... All of the above, ready for any or all, and that so many biblical men all have differing views brings a warmness to my heart that they can't figure out my Lord and Savior
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly
-1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31
-NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here.
-There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3
- @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam
-Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib]
-The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after
REV 1-4 in 11:4
-CANDLESTICK = church
-[REV 1:20]
-I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses]
LUKE21:18-19
-so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels.
REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24
-he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually
-DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..."
-2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
-In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ"
-don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you,
-don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign,
-don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment,
-it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God.
-REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
-(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies.
-The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!)
-The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8.
-I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22]
-& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5
-There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture
-REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful"
-Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it!
-I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse.
youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Eschatology is important, but it is not something that should divide true Christians. It is pretty grieving to see brothers in Christ resort to name calling and condescension just because someone else does not hold the same eschatological position. As long as we can agree Jesus will return and that he will be victorious in setting up his perfect eternal kingdom, then the exact timeline how that unfolds is something we can show grace towards others who do not hold our exact belief.
David Dee You’re right absolutely. It isn’t a small difference in one way though as it informs our world views and the way in which we see the Gospel in our world and world systems today
David Jesus said he would return, and did . People don’t believe because they don’t understand the Bible and the have preconceived notions because of false teaching of t.v. Evangelists , who preach basically for money.
There was in fact a first resurrection....the Bible teaches it. I don’t understand how these two fellows , call themselves post millennialist but still don’t understand the kingdom of God came long ago ......Jesus himself said , the kingdom of god cometh not with observation. He told the Pharisees this in the book of Luke . Why are people looking for something to happen that already has happened long ago?
@@charlesgall8273
It was not easy for me to accept,that a lot of the stories in the Biböe are past,but now i am happy,that i could escape the false teachings of the Evangelicals.
A lot of preterist believe that Jesus did return in 70ad. That’s what seems to cause division and anger. I have a hard time talking to any Christian about my beliefs without them telling me, indirectly, that I don’t know what I’m talking about and I’m just flat out wrong. Most of the time they even get angry. The funny thing is that I’ve spent more time reading about all the eschatological views than almost everyone I’ve debated. I believe that everyone who accepts Christ as Lord and Savior have been saved.
With respect, the "rebirth" of "Israel" makes for an astounding degree of confusion with regard to eschatology. Just as Postmillennialism sent the Puritans and fundamentalists in early America on a failed experiment in bringing about the "new Jerusalem" and a "city on a hill," so too, Premillennialism is sending many Christians today on a fools errand to support "Israel" at all costs, not realizing that:
a) Mystery Babylon is the earthly Jerusalem, along with her multiple harlot daughters (ref. Galatians 4 as evidence that the earthly Jerusalem remains in bondage and is irrelevant; only the heavenly Jerusalem matters now, and "she is our mother")
b) The State of Israel is a counterfeit of the true Israel, the "One new man" in Ephesians 2. It's existence is very much anti-Christ, for it stands in opposition to the finished work of Christ who brought "together all things in heaven and on earth". Saying that God still has to "deal with the Jews" is like saying "Jesus didn't finish his work."
Well said . It bothers me greatly when people assume Christian equals American .
If the first Christians didn't see the prophecies fulfilled in the past that's a good indicator that they were taught by the Apostles to expect something that past history didn't fulfill. In fact, in one of the Thessolonians, I believe, Paul actually addresses the spiritualism of prophecy that showed up in his day.
Also, nobody assumes Christian equals American. You've got BIG problems if you're using liberal talking points.
@@blanktrigger8863
The Flight to Pella was done specifically because the Christians in Jerusalem were warned to “flee to the hills” by Jesus “when armies surround Jerusalem.” The Roman army surrounded the city, then backed off briefly, giving Christians time to escape
@@justanotherbaptistjew5659 The point is not why those folks acted. The point is that the vast majority of the Church back then didn't view the Roman attack as fulfilling prophecy. A false ethic picked up from Jewish Tradition back then was to apply prophecy to current events via trivial overlaps while ignoring the absence of other more fundamental details. (ergo, Matthew's use of prophecy in his gospel - I can't remember if this was called pesher or one of the other terms I'm forgetting). So an army showing up and surrounding Israel would automatically be viewed as fulfilling prophecy to many in that situation - not so for those outside of the situation. Hence why you see the Church still looking forward after that even occured.
Again, I state that Paul even warns against preterism prior to his death. A lot of the things that he tells the people to look for are solid historical events that are couched in demonic insurgence and false miracles, similar to Revelation, similar to Yeshua's prophecies. This is what the Church was looking forward to: the Satan finally revealing himself, establishing the Antichrist, administering the spirit of Antichrist as he reveals his true religion, establishing himself above all religions and gods/Gods as he scraps and ravages paganism, and setting up the counterfeit Zion in Israel with an idol (his Antichrist, the man of lawlessness) seating in the Holy of Holies as his throne room. None of that has happened yet.
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly
-1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31
-NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here.
-There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3
- @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam
-Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib]
-The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after
REV 1-4 in 11:4
-CANDLESTICK = church
-[REV 1:20]
-I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses]
LUKE21:18-19
-so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels.
REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24
-he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually
-DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..."
-2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
-In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ"
-don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you,
-don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign,
-don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment,
-it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God.
-REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
-(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies.
-The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!)
-The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8.
-I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22]
-& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5
-There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture
-REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful"
-Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it!
-I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse.
youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
@@blanktrigger8863 Because those prophecies weren't yet FULFILLED! Geez. Think for a minute. But what they did do was use terms that indicated they would be fulfilled in their generation.
Rev 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which are about to take place after these things." That seems pretty clear to me. It was about to happen shortly after the Texts were written and sent out. A few years to be precise.
Amo 9:14 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.
Amo 9:15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.
I mean the end of that book literally talks about judgement of humanity and a new heaven and new earth with God being on earth with us and the new city. If you think that happened then I don’t know what to tell you lol
@@vladgor4099 bingo
@@vladgor4099 EXACTLY!
@@CryoftheProphet James in Acts gives the Apostolic and therefore authoritative interpretation of Amos and the Promise of Land. Amos was talking about what God was doing in the First Century with the Gentiles and bringing them into the new covenant! James connects the text with the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Christian community. ACTS 15! Study brother!
The go to books are these starting with the most current and working backwards:
1.) Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope by Keith Mathison
2.) The Millennium by Loraine Boettner
3.) An Eschatology of Victory by J. Marcellus Kik
Boettner and Kik lived and preached in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Both men are men passed away in the mid-60s. Disclaimer: I haven't read any of the books, but these men are quoted most often by scholars of the Amill and Premill camps.
All those are good. Try "The Greatness of the Great Commission" by Kenneth Gentry
I enjoy the various views on End Times, my advice is "BE PREPARED!" ✝️
Doug Wilson says, "I am willing to change my eschatology mid-rapture!"
I agree that there was an overlap of the two ages of ~ 40 years.
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly
-1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31
-NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here.
-There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3
- @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam
-Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib]
-The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after
REV 1-4 in 11:4
-CANDLESTICK = church
-[REV 1:20]
-I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses]
LUKE21:18-19
-so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels.
REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24
-he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually
-DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..."
-2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
-In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ"
-don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you,
-don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign,
-don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment,
-it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God.
-REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
-(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies.
-The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!)
-The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8.
-I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22]
-& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5
-There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture
-REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful"
-Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it!
-I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse.
youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Postmillennialism is optimistic-Christ through his church will conquer the world with His gospel by the Holy Sprit in time and space before the 2nd coming. Opponents say, "What about the doom and gloom verses" (anti-christ, tribultaion, beast, etc.) to which Mr. Wilson replied that Postmillennialists are usually also preterists, hence their future optimism. This isn't the only reason for optimism, Christ gauranteed the kingdom's victorious expansion (Matt. 13:31-33; 18:18; 28:18-20).
The problem is, this is contrary to both what's described in the text and what we see in history, whereas futurism fits both. Optimism isn't good when it's delusional.
@@blanktrigger8863 I don't think is contrary to what we see in history, the past was filled with religious hypocrites, people suffered so much because of the corrupted government, hunger, the church was persecuted in most of the world and in the countries where it wasn't, the people were not even allowed to read their bibles so they had no way to know when they were being lied to.
I think the world is better now, the curch seems to be lost in america, but is growing so much in the rest of the world, and things don't look too good in this moment, but when you compare it to the past, we are just so privileged.
@@arlethgrimaldo3534 This doesn't disprove anything I've said as it applies a non-biblical standards b order to justify Optimism, which isn't supported by the text. Nor is it supporter by history. The text tells us to expect that things will he progressively worse before Yeshua returns. Once we enter the birth pains they will increase in cycles. It says literally nothing about progressive improvement over time, but instead the opposite.
Most of the material benefit that you would reference is due to the fact that the birth pains haven't come yet. But by biblical standards, righteous has not increased. There has not been an abundance growth towards born-again people, rather the mask worn by wickedness has changed. And this follows from the Parable of the Sower where only one soil is good soil. It also follows from the fact that Yeshua never taught that those born-again should change the world. Nor did the first Christians have that perspective. It was only after millenarianism was rooted out and the government of Rome combined with the Church that this kingdom of God on earth now view became orthodoxy, and millenarianism was (and still is) deemed a heresy. That's where it all stems from.
Yet history demonstrates that millenarianism is in fact true. The OT prophecy shows that the stone that grows into a mountain does so unhampered. It should never been beaten back once it proceeds. Yet the only things described that way in Scripture is Yeshua's institution of the millennial kingdom - not by human hands, says Daniel, but by the zeal of YHWH.
The more you abandon these biblical standards the more you have to fall into delusion and apply worldly standards in order to see Optimism working. It ends up producing zero difference from modern pagans who parrot the same things.
@Dennis Yen I wouldn't state the case that strongly, but chapters like Isaiah 3 definitely disproves the Optimistic view. We see the very same judgements occuring in the West despite the material progress which shows that we aren't progressing towards righteous at all.
"Nevertheless, when the Son of Man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
- JESUS (Lk18)
Excellent treatment. Agree wholeheartedly.
I agree. I was surprised at how well he layed it out in only about 5 minutes minus the interviewer.
I would really like to hear him explain more about the suffering passages, whether they are still relevant today, and how one should answer the common objection to postmillennialism that there have been and is still much suffering and persecution of the church today, and also that the church seems to be on a downward spiral in terms of morality and faithfulness to the gospel (antichrists?).
Times and seasons, there will be upswings and downswings postmill just holds a gdneral trend upward despite the corrosion of American society, i.e. dont read the world into the bible let the bible interpret itself
There were 12, now there are over a billion.
@@donatzerodayslife Good point. 😊
@Benjamin How many are there then? Are you considering those that have lived and died or just the ones currently alive today?
I would say with the nukes (mutually assured destruction, stops nations from getting into full scale wars) and something like bitcoin, which stops the devaluation of currency. I think those 2 things are part of the ingredients of peace.
Believe me I really really like the position of postmillenialism but it at the end of day, so to speak, I am left with too many questions and the reality of abandoning premillennial teachers and assumptions hits me. I pretty much have to take the position that they were WRONG in their perspective and that is HUGE for me
Revelations warns us in the last two verses of adding or detracting anything in the prophecy. I have come to the conclusion, that we need to be careful and tentative with our approach to Revelation. I am aware of my own assumptions but careful when I teach from them. So what I consider is to pray for each other as well as others that the LORD will make it know the truth and clarity of the end times for all of us.
Check out Amillennialism. That's where I stand on things. Grew up premillennial but later changed my views upon studying scripture.
@@AllforOne_OneforAll1689 I tell you what Josiah if the remnants of the Patriarchs are no longer in The Caves of the Patriarchs, showing the proof of the first resurrection, I will join you. I would suggest reading Alan Kurschner's recently released published dissertation on Revelation 20 as well. George Eldon Ladd stated once that it was this particular topic in Revelations 20 that kept him in staying in the premillennial camp. Keep evaluating everything on both sides of the debate, Josiah.
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly
-1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31
-NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here.
-There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3
- @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam
-Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib]
-The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after
REV 1-4 in 11:4
-CANDLESTICK = church
-[REV 1:20]
-I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses]
LUKE21:18-19
-so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels.
REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24
-he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually
-DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..."
-2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
-In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ"
-don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you,
-don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign,
-don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment,
-it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God.
-REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
-(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies.
-The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!)
-The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8.
-I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22]
-& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5
-There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture
-REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful"
-Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it!
-I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse.
youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
I really don’t see how any one could misinterpret “last days” as anything other than the period before Christ’s return and the end of the world. Especially when those verses are usually followed up with those events.
Because they read the whole Bible and see that the "end of the world" language is actually apocalyptic language of judgment. That the same language is used of the OT Judgments against Israel and the other nations, not the end of the world.
The NT takes the OT apocalyptic language and applied it to the covenant breakers of Jesus' time, and fulfilled it within the generation with the destruction of Israel just as Jesus promised in the olivet discourse.
@Nero IV Brother, I am sorry to hear this. I struggled with that myself for a time, but I think the one thing that really grounded me was the fact that the resurrection of the dead has not happened. The full preterist has weak and tragically misguided arguments to convey the belief that the resurrection has already taken place. This is how I stay sane. Passages that speak of the resurrection are clearly future, and nothing could convince me otherwise. If the resurrection is spiritual, then Christ himself was not raised, and we truly have no hope, purpose, or meaning in this physical world. It's gnosticism.
Matthew 24-25 mentions no resurrection, or even an allusion to a resurrection. Revelation 20 does. 1 Cor 15 does. 1 Thess 4 does. And Acts 1 clearly speaks of a physical return of Christ, pointing clearly that his coming at the resurrection is different than his coming in 70 AD. I believe the key to differentiating both comings is the resurrection of the dead.
Of course this can be tricky with passages like 2 Thessalonians 1, etc, but in the end, these passages being future or past do not make or break anything. The centerpiece of redemptive history is the resurrection from the dead, something we must hold on to and differentiate from judgement comings.
Praying for you, my friend.
In my own life as a once hard core militant atheist, I read these passages. Consumed the bible only in order to lay Christians to waste. Mind you, it was the juvenile or non studying christian I would debate but I went through the bible to prepare and I took it as a post mil preterest. The text is clear. End of the AGE etc. These teachers are absolutely correct when you hear them saying atheists tear these verses apart. The majority of Christians are teaching things that conflict with the text. I would use that often. Revelation clearly being about Jerusalem. Centered there. Etc. The fact John wrote it when there was still a temple. Etc.
Now I say all that to say this. When I came to the feet of Christ at 33 years old I came into this futurist culture. Suddenly I forgot what I knew. I didn't have the disadvantage of traditions weighing me down. I saw the pure word for what it was. Then BECAME a man OF Christ and immediately succumbed to christian pop culture and tradition.
Thankfully I woke up. Took to the text again and now see what I would call a much more complete and true understanding of the Word of God.
Praise God.
Never stop loving the word.
Never stop fighting for the Kingdom.
So many passages that you take as being fulfilled in Jesus day simply logically were not. His visible second coming as lightning flashes across the sky? How has that already happened?
@@RockBadgerChristianity read Ezekiel and you'll find much of the same kinds of language used there regarding the COMING of GOD and His Judgements on various nations.
Josephus also records how the Coming of GOD'S Judgement was manifested and witnessed in the skies by various people in years leading up to the physical destruction of Jerusalem.
Most scholars state Revelation was written after 70 A.D. Revelation 9 has not happened yet if you take the plain sense of words whenever possible.
I enjoy listening to Doug but I would say he has it wrong on eschatology. Maranatha!
Only one ancient author said it and everyone believes him 180 AD from memory. He thought Jesus died in his 50's! John is instructed to measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. There was no temple after 70 ad. Rev 11.
Do you guys see those two bottles of beer behind Doug Wilson? Are those Reformation Beers? The green 1 looks like it has a pic of Calvin and the other looks like some church father with a long beard, lol!
***** Lol
+The Reformed Rican The Calvin Beer comes from Geneva where it is brewed. www.calvinus.ch/
Thanks!
The other one is Old Rasputin by North Coast Brewing, an excellent Imperial stout by an excellent brewer. .. so probably not a church father.. :)
www.northcoastbrewing.com/beers/year-round-beers/old-rasputin-russian-imperial-stout/?ao_confirm
Whatever they are, Doug drank them. And probably giggled when he did.
Sorry, but I don't buy this postmillennial view. We can certainly agree to disagree as Christians, but the one thing that bothers me is that most postmil or preterist interpretations don't tend to go verse by verse in the very text that speaks about the millennial, which is Revelation 20:1-8. There are specific descriptions in those verses (where 1000 years is mentioned six times) that connect to other verses earlier in Revelation. The devil is bound and sealed for 1000 years and deceives the nations no more (which we are told in Revelation 12:9). If we're living in the 1000 years was the devil truly bound and not able to deceive the world anymore? And if that is true, why would we need to heed the warning of putting on the whole armor of God in Ephesians 6:10-18? And if the devil isn't truly bound, what does bound mean?
How about during the 1000 years the resurrection of saints that never took the mark of the beast? This is shown in Revelation 20:4-5 and any reference to the beast goes back to Revelation 13. Then when the devil is let loose and defeated, he is put into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet already are in (this happened in Revelation 19:20). Not trying to belittle other Christian's views of the last days, but when a view tells me that we're either living in the 1000 years or that it is passed already, they need to explain every word, context, and content of Revelation 20:1-8 to me. What part is symbolic and which part isn't? Exactly what does the symbolism mean? How does it connect to earlier verses in the same book that it references? How does the fall of the temple in 70 AD connect with those earlier verses and the 1000 years we're supposed to be living in now? It would seem that all Christians believe in Christ's return, but if we're going into details, we need to explain the verses about it (particularly as it pertains to the 1000 years).
Apology accepted. Thanks!
@Iron Americana To be honest, it's hard to pin down exactly what Postmillennialists believe when it comes to Revelation 20:1-9. I hear a lot about what they don't believe, and they refute the pre-millennial view, but I honestly haven't heard a verse by verse explanation from Revelation 20 explaining what those verses mean. That is the point of my original comment.
By the way, when you do a search of postmillennialism, you get this definition:
"In Christian end-times theology, postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper."
Go to GotQuestions.org and you get, "Postmillennialism is an interpretation of Revelation chapter 20 which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after the “millennium,” a golden age or era of Christian prosperity and dominance. The term includes several similar views of the end times, and it stands in contrast to premillennialism (the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign) and, to a lesser extent, amillennialism (no literal millennium).
Postmillennialism is the belief that Christ returns after a period of time, but not necessarily a literal 1000 years. Those who hold this view do not interpret unfulfilled prophecy using a normal, literal method. They believe that Revelation 20:4-6 should not be taken literally. They believe that “1000 years” simply means “a long period of time.” Furthermore, the prefix “post-” in “postmillennialism” denotes the view that Christ will return after Christians (not Christ Himself) have established the kingdom on this earth.
"
So it's safe to say that it's easy to see why many Christians think postmillennialists think we're living in the 1000 year reign now since it isn't literal, but a "long period of time."
Excellent questions, Eric. You’d be a wonderful asset in any Bible study.
Post mill thinkers don't believe we are living in the millennium. The defining characteristic of post mill is the belief that Jesus will come after the millennium.
@@2timothy23 All readers of the Bible should read the Bible as it is written. Not every phrase is literal, the writers of the Bible very clearly employed metaphorical and figurative language and quite beautifully at that. That's not to say there aren't plenty of phrases that should be taken literally.
When did Paul write his letter to Timothy? We should consider why he wrote the letter.. When he wrote the letter. And who he wrote the letter to..
What about 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5? I struggle a little there.
1 Thess. 4 refers to events preceding the future Second Coming, whilst 1 Thess. 5 refers to the end of the Judaic aeon in 70 AD.
@AnarchoRepublican But Amill is irresponsible to the expectation of and commission of Christ's victory in history.
@AnarchoRepublican Thankfully, I disagree whole-heartily.
@AnarchoRepublican Cool!
Orthodox or Partial preterism does handle the end times passages in ways that must be dealt with honestly by any bible believing expositor. That being said, the interpretation of those passages is secondary. For me, Postmillennialism's main problem has to do with reconciling its logical conclusion (the Church's victorious expansion) in light of Matthew 7:13-14. I find that Postmillennialism (like the pre-trib rapture view) could lend itself to unpreparedness for persecution
Matthew Abate I recognize the difficulty with the passage, and I by no means think my answer authoritative or comprehensive, but I have heard a premillennialist cite, which I think to be correct, that those rejected are not wholly of the world, but those on the narrow path are in the covenant community. If you look over the course of history, this mat well be reconcilable if the last great push took only 3 or 4 generations. This could have also been directed more towards the immediate audience of Jewish people, of whom you could expect only a portion to have whetted the Kingdom, while almost all thought they would. I think the key is addressing the end, of which no one knows the hour.
Preterist here!!!
Horrible things have happened many times and in many places, and still do. Just today I see a news report entitled "Horrific Reports of People Cooking & Eating Their Children - and Digging Up Corpses - Come Amid NKorean Famine"
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly
-1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31
-NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here.
-There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3
- @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam
-Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib]
-The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after
REV 1-4 in 11:4
-CANDLESTICK = church
-[REV 1:20]
-I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses]
LUKE21:18-19
-so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels.
REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24
-he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually
-DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..."
-2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
-In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ"
-don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you,
-don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign,
-don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment,
-it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God.
-REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
-(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies.
-The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!)
-The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8.
-I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22]
-& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5
-There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture
-REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful"
-Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it!
-I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse.
youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Is it possible to be praetorist AND futurist? Like Caesar being a "type" and "shadow" of the Beast?
That would be historicist
Yea I wouldn’t divide over this , though I got a lot of questions .lol study study study. !
Jesus: I go to prepare a place for you (John 14:3)
Post Mil: We will prepare a place for you
Question: When we read scripture, is the return of Jesus described as a peaceful transition of power and authority to Jesus at His return from believers who have obeyed the Great Commission and have "Christianized" the world, or do we read of the return of Jesus as a violent and bloody event (Zech 24, Rev 19) ??
Do either of those points actually challenge postmil? I'm not sure I follow.
I like Doug Wilson, but I remain unconvinced about postmillennialism. If God WERE trying to tell us something about the future (not 70 AD), how could he have done so such that it would escape that interpretive method? Jesus said, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and NEVER WILL BE. And if those days had not been cut short, NO HUMAN BEING would be saved.” The events in 70 AD just don't reach that level.
exactly
Ya...marrying and castrating a boy like Nero did, using Christian's as garden torches, famines so bad mother's ate their babies. "No where near the level..." Right?
@@jacob_maier The 20th century had much worse brutality, to Christians and non-Christians alike. Study history, smh. Between the Tzars, the Bolsheviks, The Soviets, the Third Reich, and the Japanese Empire, Mao's China, Turkish genocide, etc, I could go on and on. There was probably ten times the death, evil, famine, torture, rape, etc compared to Nero's time.
There are 2 different prophecies that Jesus gave us. One was about the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD. The other was about his return at the end of history.
@@lucarich8711in none of these times were Christians on the verge of extinction like in 70 A.D. I think the great tribulation refers to the period of Christian persecution after the fall of Jerusalem as well
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, nearly a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, and colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
Can one be both a preterist and an amillennialist ?
WWI & WWII were far worse than anything that the world had seen before and Jesus did not return. If Jesus is correct that the end will be worse than it has ever been before, we are looking towards times that will be far worse.
i would disagree. during the days of Nero an average of 500 Christians a day were being crucified by the Romans.. there has never been a time worse than that
ReformedEklektos
Then where is Jesus? Jesus said those times would be cut short because of how deathly they were, the time would be cut short by Jesus's second coming. Where is he?
deezynar If you had studied historical views of those passages like the amillenial or postmillenial views you wouldn't be asking that question.. It is best to study all views concerning eschatology instead of just accepting what is "popular" in the church culture you live in. Nobody denies the verses of matthew 24 you are referring to but our views of them and what they mean with consistency to the rest of scripture is quite different
ReformedEklektos
Hey, brother, I'm going to toss in the towel. I don't want to spend my time arguing. We'll just part ways with different opinions.
*****
Are you saying that we are living in the kingdom of God right now?
Amillennialism view of eschatology makes sense. Seeing what is happening to the world today, i don't see why anyone would think to be a postmillenialist/preterist.
Amill like postmill makes no sense. Premill makes sense. There will be a literal 1000 year millennium, Revelation 20 is clear on that. Jesus will reign on the earth.
Preterist here, Just as Gary Demar
does that mean john was written before 70 ad?
The "little horn" (aka. Antichrist; Dan. 7:25) would continue for, "a time, times, and half a time" (1,260 days).
The "sea beast" (aka. Antichrist; Rev. 13:5) would exercise power for, "forty-two months" (1,260 days).
The "two witnesses" would prophesy for "1,260 days" (Rev. 11:3);
and the "nations...will trample the holy city for forty-two months (1,260 days; Rev. 11:2).
The "woman" would flee "into the wilderness" to be "nourished for 1,260 days; Rev. 12:6);
and for "a time, and times, and half a time" (1,260 days; Rev. 12:14).
This same time prophecy is given 7 TIMES in Scripture.
It has tremendous significance.
Preterists must interpret the "1,260 days" as a literal 3.5 years.
Futurist also must interpret the "1,260 days" as a literal 3.5 years.
However, it was the Reformers, and post-Reformation theologians/biblical exegetes who recognized in this time prophecy the DAY=YEAR principle (eg. Eze. 4:6; Num. 14:34).
John Gill (1697-1771) writes concerning Rev. 11:2:
"...this [time prophecy] must be understood prophetically of so many months of YEARS; and a month with the Chaldeans consisting of thirty days, and a year of 360 days, which account Daniel used, and John after him, forty two months, reckoning A DAY FOR A YEAR after the prophetic style, make 1260 YEARS..."
Again, Preterists are wrong in their interpretation of the prophecies of the book of Revelation in asserting that the majority of them were fulfilled by 70 A.D. (or, by the fall of the Roman Empire in the 5th century A.D., as some other Preterists have said.
Not only this, but Futurists are wrong in their interpretation of Revelation in asserting that the majority of the events will only occur during a [mythical] 7-year period at the end of time.
The Reformers were neither Preterists, nor Futurists....THEY WERE HISTORICISTS!
We should study what Historicists, like the Reformers who wrote on Bible prophecy, had to say about it.
Questions?
Let me know.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
Nice info there. So then if pre and post are wrong. What can you say about the last days/ end times/ harpatzo events? When?
What a convoluted explanation.
Dat. Post. Mil.
Jon Watson no hashtag? XD
Jebron you're the real MVP
@ 0:22, I'm glad Doug Wilson states explicitly that, "Most contemporary Postmillennialists are also Preterists..."
I really appreciate when Postmillennialists are honest about what they believe;
since it's very difficult to get them to actually walk through Revelation 20 in defense of their [erroneous] Postmillennial views, at least Doug is honest enough to admit that, "most...Postmillennialists are also Preterists".
And this is precisely why most of these folks are NOT Confessionally oriented.
For example, they cannot hold to either the Westminster or 1689 Baptist Confessions of Faith, since these are both HISTORICIST documents...they don't support Preterism, nor do they support Futurism (Dispensational, or otherwise).
Again, I am grateful that Doug was honest about how most Postmillennialists are Preterists.
HISTORICISM: the only proper way to read and interpret the books of Daniel and Revelation.
Daniel ch. 2 & 7, for example, give us the entire panorama of Bible prophecy, from the time of Daniel all the way up to the 2nd Advent of Christ...and beyond.
These chapters give us HISTORICISM; not Futurism, or Preterism.
Hope this helps.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
Honest? Meh...certainly DELUSIONAL.
Problem is, if we take all of the time statements, its hard to draw the line at Post Mill, which means Full Preterism has a point and a very good one.
Don't follow?
@@Choraldiscourse There are about 101 time statements in the New T, all of them were pointing to something about to happen then, not future.
When Christ returns we change to spiritual bodies instantly
-1COR15:50-58, MATT24:30-31
-NEVER believe He's back unless you're changed FIRST, no matter what happens, who comes, how they get here, or who they seem to be, if your flesh stays the same, then God is NOT here.
-There will be NO confusion when Jesus actually returns, so if anyone doubts it, then He's not back, but only a fake is here. REV20:1-3
- @TheShepherdsChapel / UA-cam
-Ancients taught Historic Premillennialism [Christ returns once, post-trib]
-The church stays during tribulation, mentioned after
REV 1-4 in 11:4
-CANDLESTICK = church
-[REV 1:20]
-I believe the anti-Christ will NOT kill any elect [other than the 2 witnesses]
LUKE21:18-19
-so do NOT believe in the anti-Christ even if he acts like Jesus, peaceful the entire tribulation, doing miracles with millions of angels.
REV9:16, 13:13-14, DAN8:25, MATT24:24
-he acts peaceful physically to destroy spiritually
-DAN8:25 "...he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by PEACE shall destroy..."
-2COR11:14 "...no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
-In Greek "anti-Christ" = "instead of-Christ"
-don't think he is Jesus come to rapture you,
-don't think tribulation is over & he is God come to reign,
-don't even think the millennium is over & he is God come for final judgment,
-it's a trick to get you to commit apostasy by giving up on waiting for the true Christ cause you think the anti-Christ is God.
-REV13:11 "...another beast...; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
-(Seems like a peaceful lamb, but speaks lies.
-The true Christ is the true Lamb [JOHN1:29], wait for him!)
-The anti-Christ comes 1st acting like God, only AFTER that will the true Christ return at the end. 2THESS1:6-7, & 2:1-8.
-I think the anti-Christ's time will NOT last 3&1/2yrs [ROM9:27-28/MATT24:22]
-& I think the GREAT trib will only last 5 months. REV9:5
-There is NO mid/pre-trib rapture
-REV2:10"...the devil shall cast some of you into prison, ...ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful"
-Wait for your body to change first to think if Jesus has returned, wait until no one questions it!
-I learned most of this studying with the Shepherd's Chapel, they're on TV and UA-cam so if you want to learn more you can look them up and study any chapter in the Bible verse by verse.
youtube .com/ @TheShepherdsChapel
Have you read the history concerning what happened in A.D. 70? It was horrible! The people of Jerusalem would certainly have thought that their world was coming to an end. In fact, that era did come to an end at that point.
Is there a book to read?
@@justinjones2160 Josephus a Pharisee wrote an eyewitness account.
Exactly
Really? The worst tribulations that the world has ever seen happened in 70 AD. I doubt it. Then again there had to have been a mass resurrection. Then Christ was supposed to rule here with the saints in glorified bodies for 1000 years before Satan getting released for a little bit longer but it’s already been 2000 years. Also there should have been the judgement of humanity at the white throne, didn’t happen. We earth and new heaven didn’t happen.
If you think we live in the 1000 year reign then please explain to me genocide, child sex trafficking, and rapes. If you can explain to my how that’s allowed when it’s supposed to be 1000 years of peace then we can go from there
I have always thought the end time prophecies, just like the prophecy of Jesus in the Old Testament , actually refers to 2 different events. The destruction of Israel is a pattern of the events that will happen to the entire world. Futurism and Preterism are both correct. Yes the prophecy has already been fulfilled and yes it will be fulfilled again.
Doug uses a lot of philosophy and theology mixed with his own interpretations to convey absolutely nothing.. The worlds history according to Doug... Please stop with the intellectual babble.. You speak ..but say nothing.. Or maybe it is me not listening... You are not Jesus Doug.. Jesus would have left you blind and walked away...
+Les Nagy why? Because what he says doesn't fit the Left Behind model of fear you desperately hold to instead of a real eschatology of victory in Christ?
I guess that leave room for a 2nd virgin birth to take place then.
Yes, I tend to agree with you Anasakis. It is Both-And. Eschatology is a complex subject, and prophecy is filled with both the literal and non-literal. I am open-minded about post-mil though.
mmmmm i don't know about that Jesus Christ destroyed the 2nd temple for a reason
The Nation of Israel today by and large don't even believe in God much less know about Jesus to be guilty of rejecting him.
I don't know how everything will turn out in the future, and I do not believe we can know in the Bible exactly what will take place. But I am absolutely certain about one thing: we're all gonna be amazed at how wrong we all got it. Think about the incarnation: what person before that figured out how God was going to pull this off? Which prophet had it nailed down what Jesus was going to be like and how He would save His people? None of them. They all had parts, they all had a few bits of the puzzle, but nobody knew or could have predicted it.
Just like now. We all have bits from the Bible, we all have the pieces, but none of us are putting them together the way God will. And to insist on one way or another, stridently, its not just mistaken, its arrogant.
He had a valid point. If he is right though, the book of Revelation should never have been written or at least kept as it would have been unnecessary for us who come later and actually a horrible misguidance. There’s no way around that one
Thanks Jan. What do you think about verses like Revelation 13:18 -- that John intended his audience to be able to figure out the important historical clues of Revelation? He wouldn't have thought of it as "misguidance" -- he says, basically, "figure out who I'm talking about" (Nero). (I think a similar thing is going on with Matthew 24's "let the reader understand.")
Canon Press yes you may have a point. That’s why I can’t have a very neat system to my eschatology. I think it may go something like “hey it’s Nero and he will go and come back again in a worse Nero later” think that fits with the one who was and died but came again idea of the antichrist. Dr Michael Heiser has a good fair take on all this and you an find here on UA-cam. Bless you
I don't have it figured out either (it was a straightforward question). Thanks for the comment and the recommend!
Canon Press i know it was a straight forward question :)
Revelation is the Olivet Discourse of John...Adam Maarschalk does excellent study on this (look him up)
Okay, I understand Doug's explanation but how can (or *can* ) one know with certainty?
The time statements make it clear that it happened then and we know with certainty that the temple was destroyed.
@@christvictoriouskingdomnow2473 Absolut, Matthäus Endzeit-Rede und die Offenbarung wurden alle beide vor 70.nach Christus niedergeschrieben. Daher müsste sich alles erfüllt haben. Grüße
2 Thessalonians 2 makes Postmillenialism impossible.
2 Thess 2 does not. Only your own interpretation does.
@@kylec8950
As opposed to your interpretation?
@@keithwilson6060 Yes and the historical interpretation.
Absolutely Correct, but many see the Antichrist as come and gone.Some see the Antichrist as a system , etc but we know everyone in history past won’t be compared to the coming Person
@@losgoodmusicmandrell8371 There is no coming "person". Only Christ.
Cerinthus couldn't be the false prophet in Revelation. He's a Gnostic Ebionite, so would not be telling people to worship the Roman Emperor. Salvation is through strict adherence to the law, the primary principle of that including worshiping only the One true God. He would, therefore, not fit the description in Thessalonians, where he exalts himself above every god. I find it interesting that Preterists are in need of pinning the antichrist tail on the heretical donkey, but have no real candidates for it that fit the descriptions. Part of this is because the designations likely refer to different persons/groups, and not all the same person. Context is king and it is often ignored to support these eschatological paradigms.
I know that many people agree with Mr. Wilson's end times theology but it really takes a lot of assumptions that I just don't see being well grounded. I may be wrong but I'll take my chances on my views
They’re not even assumptions. They are complete distortions of much of the text, and complete disregard and ignorance of the rest. I’ve followed this resurgence of post mill teaching for a while now and it has taken a strong hold in my congregation. Anytime I’ve confronted them with a plethora of scriptures that blatantly contradict what they believe they just dismiss it as allegory. It’s such an inconsistent hermeneutic. Ear tickling doctrine that people gravitate towards because they don’t have to suffer the tribulation, same as the pre tribulation rapture. These people argue like these are the only two options.
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." Matt 24:18 So that has happened already?
Yep -- The reason we know that is Jesus says this tribulation would take place before the people in the generation he's talking to die (Matt 24:34). The Old Testament prophets used apocalyptic language just like what Jesus says to prophesy the judgement or downfall of a city or nation (eg, Assyria, Babylon, Sumeria, Syria). Jesus takes that kind of language and applies it to the downfall of Jerusalem and Israel.
You see I just simply can’t buy that. I’m looking into post millennialism (watching Jeff Durbin) like I’m trying to find out what’s the truth but I’m on the fence everywhere
@@CanonPressreaching for the stars with this one
No offense, my brother, but I think you have been looking through your theological glasses so long that you can't see anything but what you've been trained to see. Ironically, I've come across premil people who not only think the same of their system as you think of yours, but think as lowly of your "delusion" as you think of theirs. Every eschatological system has its strengths and weaknesses. Preterism seems the weakest to me, but I am still looking into it. Btw, Left Behind isn't theology.
And what did you conclude?
@@finalsecretofchrono1339 After looking into it, I think premil pre-trib has the best biblical evidence, but there are also good arguments against it. Pre-mil is bulletproof, but the pre-trib position isn’t.
@@rlh125 interesting discovery, thanks for sharing. I knocked off pre-trib as a deception (scriptures like 2 thess 2 blow pre-trib out of the water) and am looking through premil, postmil, amil…..premil looks bulletproof so far.
The problem is this. If you’re a postmillenialist, you have to, as Doug says, be a preterist. The major issue with this is that Revelation was written AFTER Nero died.
The prederist view has much more problem passages to me. You really have to stretch to find "fulfillment" of all the prophecies.
So disregard all of revelation?
You really need to read Doug's newest book -- here's the intro vid that just dropped: ua-cam.com/video/suJwQeh16Qw/v-deo.html
I had the same question. Then I read the Revelation by myself, several times in a row. It all became obvious.
Can I make a suggestion? Read the Bible chronologically. It all becomes more obvious.
@@rms-vp6hf So you're a futurist pre millienialist?
@@rms-vp6hf
Is there a Chronological ordering of the Bible somewhere?
A problem with the Post millennial view is that they believe Christ is ruling NOW. But Revelation 11 has the two witnesses being killed and then raised to life after three and a half days. And it says their enemies will SEE them ascend into Heaven. Then you have a great earthquake in Jerusalem that kills 7000 people. Then the seventh trumpet sounds and NOW it says, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (notice the kingdoms of the world don't become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ UNTIL the seventh trumpet is sounded. Surely you don't think the 7th trumpet is at the very beginning of this spiritual millennial reign?") 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
This says the time of Judgment has come for the wicked and the time of reward for the prophets and the saints. I'm sorry, all this has NOT happened even yet, let alone in the first century.
To quote myself in a recent response to a recent reply to a comment of mine: "The point is not why those folks acted. The point is that the vast majority of the Church back then didn't view the Roman attack as fulfilling prophecy. A false ethic picked up from Jewish Tradition back then was to apply prophecy to current events via trivial overlaps while ignoring the absence of other more fundamental details. (ergo, Matthew's use of prophecy in his gospel - I can't remember if this was called pesher or one of the other terms I'm forgetting). So an army showing up and surrounding Israel would automatically be viewed as fulfilling prophecy to many in that situation - not so for those outside of the situation. Hence why you see the Church still looking forward after that even occured.
Again, I state that Paul even warns against preterism prior to his death. A lot of the things that he tells the people to look for are solid historical events that are couched in demonic insurgence and false miracles, similar to Revelation, similar to Yeshua's prophecies. This is what the Church was looking forward to: the Satan finally revealing himself, establishing the Antichrist, administering the spirit of Antichrist as he reveals his true religion, establishing himself above all religions and gods/Gods as he scraps and ravages paganism, and setting up the counterfeit Zion in Israel with an idol (his Antichrist, the man of lawlessness) seating in the Holy of Holies as his throne room. None of that has happened yet."
But all one needs to do is look around. Christ is not enthroned in earth, Ezekiels temple is not built, the promised land is not divided nor inhabited like Ezekiel promised. Things arent getting better and better, they are getting worse and worse. How in the world anyone can look at anything post 70 AD and say, "yup, God's kingdom is on earth as it is in heaven" is beyond me.
I mean really, this is the new heaven and the new earth? Really? Babylon is fallen? Really?
Luke 21:8 Do not be deceived many will come in my name saying 'I am he' when Jesus returns see the ressurected saints past and present with their glorified bodies with our Lord Jesus Christ riding upon white horses Rev 9:11
And many did...we have evidence from the first century historians! :)
Yes
Name one! Jesus has yet to come in this fashion!
Pastor Doug equates the "last days" with the "old heavens and the old earth," thereby defeating his own argument.
Holding the postmillennial view is like being on a burning, sinking ship and trying to rally the passengers to repair it.
That is the position of the premillennial and why they do nothing but sit around and do nothing. You are creating a straw man that is false. Post mil folks look at history and acknowledge that things are getting better and admit that it is a very prideful position to assume that America is representative of the global state of Christianity. Having traveled over seas in the last decade I am fully aware that there are places in the world that are ugly and also others that are over 95% active professing Christians, and their societies are being blessed because of it
Couldn't agree more, you have to twist Revelation in so many directions. Basically, calling the word of God a liar.
Not sure where in scripture you go to make this assumption?
1) How can Nero be the man of lawlessness standing in the Holy place whom Christ would kill with his coming (2 Thess 2) if he died of suicide 2 years before the temple destruction?
2) In Titus 2:12-13, Paul tells us that in the “present age”, the church is “waiting” for the “blessed hope” of Christ’s coming. The disciples ask what the signs of the “end of the age” will be. Both the disciples and Paul were alive before 70 AD during the same “age”, so if the temple destruction somehow marks the end of the Jewish age, then, under the Preterist view, the temple destruction would have to have been the “blessed hope” Paul was talking about. This is hardly in God’s character to be comforted by the death of the wicked. What do preterists do with this discrepancy? It makes way more sense for the end of the Jewish age to have been when the curtain was rent at Calvary, but that doesn’t work either because the events of Matt. 24 would have happened way after that even in the Preterist view.
3) Jesus states at the end of Matt. 23 that Jerusalem would not “see” him again until they called him blessed, and then later says that after the tribulation the tribes of the earth would “see” the son of man approaching. Did the Jews call Christ blessed when he allegedly “came” to destroy their temple?
4) At the end of Revelation 19, it seems that all who worshipped the beast were slain. Why then was it only the Jews? The pagans were known to actually worship their emperors. Shouldn’t they have been slain too? And why is the beast’s army (the Roman army) carrying out the judgement on those who worship him instead of Christ? This makes no sense to me. And of course as stated in point #1, Christ would have had to slay the beast before 70 AD anyway since Nero was already dead.
5) Did someone stand in the Temple and claim to be Yahweh in 70 AD? I cant find anything anywhere.
6) If most of Revelation took place by 70 AD, why did John write Revelation to all the churches in Asia about events that would come upon Jerusalem almost a thousand miles away? Wouldn’t he have instead warned the Jerusalem church of the events to come? What hour of wrath was the Church of Philadelphia being kept from? (Rev. 3:10) The events of Revelation would have been of no consequence to anyone but the Jews, so it makes zero sense for him to write to Christians all over and not actually write to those being affected by the events.
This is especially confusing since those “coming out of the tribulation” in Revelation 7 are from all nations. The whole point is that they didn’t worship the beast, UNLIKE EVERYONE ELSE, and were punished with death by the beast. This stands in sharp contrast to 70 AD where 1.1 million Jews were slain. Did they all refuse to worship the beast? If so, then why were they judged by God with wrath in the first place?
I’m sorry, there are so many holes in this system.
Very well stated…..these questions certainly add to others I’ve had. I like to explore why Christians believe the way they do, but preterism/post millennial theology makes no sense to me. Preterists seem to not understand how 1000 years means 1000 years. The Bible says satan will be locked up for a thousand years and then set loose for a short season….that sounds to me like at the end of a thousand years, he’ll be set loose. When was he ever locked up for a thousand years?
What about the land covenant that God made with Abraham? The Israelites have never possessed it all. Sorry guys, but this view has spiritualized so many things that God says is going to happen. I don’t think anyone could ever have justification to do that to His Word.
See, the entire hermeneutical framework of Covenant Theology (if you wanna call it that-terms run the risk of overgeneralizing though) is built upon a premise that the “Old Covenant” and “New Covenant” are actually the same covenant of Grace set forth by God after the fall, and that they merely take different forms.
If that’s your starting point, then it seems perfectly logical to take all the Old Testament promises to Israel and apply them to God’s “covenant people” today. They view the church not as just the elect saints, but as a new covenant people in the church age, such that you can actually be part of the covenant people without necessarily being saved. This is why they baptize infants-to identify them with the covenant people the way Israel did with circumcision.
The main problem, I think, is this: the new covenant is clearly in Christ’s blood. Because of this, it is a covenant into which one is grafted by BELIEF (Romans 11:13-24 explains this very clearly). This is an entirely different type of covenant than the Old Testament covenants because this covenant is conditional, the condition being that a person has belief and is one of the elect saints. The Old Testament covenants are unconditional and eternal. There is no indication that they will ever pass away or be revoked for any reason, and Romans 11:29 makes this abundantly clear.
With that in mind as a basic principle, one arrives at the exact conclusion that you have, namely that the covenant promises to Israel have not yet been fulfilled. To spiritualize them is to not only change their essence, but also rob the people to which they were originally promised. This is not to even mention that the curses upon Israel in the early chapters of the prophets covenantalists view as applying to Israel, but that the promises apply to the new covenant people, an inconsistent reading to be sure.
Once you understand that the Old Testament promises have not yet been fulfilled, your entire understanding of prophecy is centered around the idea that in the future, there will be a kingdom as promised by God in the Old Testament where Israel’s unfulfilled promises will be completed, and then before you know it, you’re a “dispensationalist” who believes in a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
It’s very interesting how the basic underlying principles can radically change one’s entire theological framework. But I agree that the postmil, Preterist view is laden with a plethora of issues and takes idealist stances where it ought not to.
Let's be humble when discussing this very tough book and surrounding books. I will try to help in your understanding of these questions. I do not claim to know all but I can shed some light of the preterist view in some of these areas. God give us wisdom as we all hunt for truth, God bless you brother, have a great weekend, I hope this helps even a little.
1- The man of lawlessness is Nero. He is the one who is lawless and desires to sit in the temple. He thought of himself as Apollo, the sun God, he minted coins with his head on it with rays of sun going out all directions to emulate Apollo. When the Parthian King Tiridates came before Nero he set down his crown before him and said "I praise you as my God the spinner of my fate". Nero thought of himself as God. When it says "he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" - The Greek language there is such that he desired to do so. Luke 4:29 " and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff." Same Greek language used, they didn't throw him over the cliff.
"And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time." Claudius is in power, as long as Claudius is alive Nero cannot cause any trouble or show himself a danger to anybody. But once Claudius dies, Nero ascends the throne and he can soon thereafter show himself to be the evil man we know him to be. ***Claudius is based off the latin word Claudere ("shut up"), from claudere ("to bar, block, close, enclose, bring an end to, confine)*** Effectively the restraining is a person name 'to restrain'. Nero's mother Agrippina is married to Claudius and she poisons Claudius so Nero her son can come to power. This was around AD54. 2 Thes 2:7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work" - Agrippina is at work in the background plotting to kill Claudias so her son Nero can take power.
2 Thes 2:8 "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." In scripture the coming of God is regarding a judgment coming from God to a particular people as in Isa 19:1. Nero died in 68 just before the temple was destroyed. He died according to the providence of God. Paul inerprets this in religious reality instead of saying Nero killed himself because his gaurd caused him to commit suicide. It is Jesus destroying him with his own sword just before he comes to judgment against the temple.
2) The destruction of the Temple was Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven in Matt 24
3) "“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ "
4) In short Revelation is a judgment upon Jerusalem. In long to give some detail for understanding.
From AD30 to AD70 you have an overlap of two redemptive eras. As the old covenant is winding down after the ministry of Christ, the new covenant starts picking up. The old covenant era cannot continue forever. The destruction of the temple, secures the kingdom and vindicated the church's message. Rev 19:9-10 "9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Jesus had prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem, and now we see that in the confirmation of his prophecy there is celebration. Matt 8:11-12 could draw a parallel, "11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Here the gentiles are brought into the kingdom and the Jews are cast out -- effectively what is happening here in Revelation.
AD70 events vindicate Christianity against Judaism. Seen in a lot of early church writings, Ref. : Writings of Taledo of Sardis, Tortolius apologies chapter 21 & 26, Tortolius Answer to the Jews 9 & 13, Tortolius Against Marsha chapter 3 & 5, Hipalitis credence on Christ and the antichrist, his expository credence against the Jews, against Noadus, Siprium's credences, Vitenentus's Divine Institutes. A lot of apologetic statements, by Christians against the Jews, pointing to the destruction of the temple in confirmation of the validity of the Christian faith. Matt 26:64 " Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” - Jesus said it to the Sanhedrin condemning him as well, coming to judgment, the clouds of heaven are going to crash down on you in judgment. The NT records the gradual establishment of the kingdom. Matt 13:31-33 "31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, 32 which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches. 33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Mustard seed growing gradually. Promised ministerial announcement Mark 1:15 " and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” The kingdom's legal securing at the cross, Matt 28:18, Romans 1:3-4, Col 2:14-15. To its public vindication in Israels overthrow.
Recap: "The NT records the gradual establishment of the kingdom. Promised ministerial announcement. To its legal securing at the cross. T To its public vindication in Israel's overthrow.
The removal of the temple system physically breaks down the dividing wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile - Which was legally broken in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ - Eph 2:14. The removal of the temple system ends zionistic tendences of many 1st century Christians. Acts 10, Peter goes to Cornelius's house and preaches the gospel, and Cornelius is converted - What did the elders and apostles back in Jerusalem think when they heard about Peter going to the gentle Cornelius's house? They rebuke him, what are you doing going in among the gentles? Then he says the Holy Spirit has been poured out among them and they all rejoice. Romans 14:1-8, Gal 1-5, Col 2:16, Titus 3:9. Zionistic tendencies of 1st century Christians, but after the fall of the temple it is obvious to all, irrefutably, that the ceremonial system is gone. Because of all this, Christianity has established herself as a separate religion. Israel has gone through birth pains and has brought forth a new faith, Christianity - of course it isn't really new, it is a continuation of the true old faith. New as far as Judaism is concerned b/c they deny their old faith.
The bridegroom appears. The divorce and punishment of his wife justify the marriage. Rev 19:11-21 "11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh."
Jesus comes as a warrior bridegroom in punishing faithful Israel and taking this new bridge. Christ is Israel's ultimate judge. Matt 24:29-30 - he says comes with clouds upon them, Matt 26:64 - High priest will live to see the judgment. When we see him here he makes war against her, another iteration of that war and he finishes her off. The judgment upon Jerusalem is so severe there is no proper burial - she is consumed by birds. The worst indignity in that culture was to be left outside without a proper burial. Wars 5-12-3, the bodies were cast over the walls. Wars 5-12-4 'those valleys, saw them full of dead bodies, and the thick putrefaction running about them'
Many crowns on his head - affirms in another way he has all authority on heaven and on Earth. It is an apocalyptic way of saying that, Rev 19:12 same as Matt 28:18. Or it is another way of saying Eph 1:21 " he far above all rule, power, authority and dominion" Or Phil 2:9 "the name that is above every name". Or that he has angels, authorities and powers in submission to him - 1 Peter 3:22. He proves that he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords in a very public magnificent way.
This does sound a lot like the 2nd advent. Rev 19 is an expansion of Rev 1:7 which itself is based itself out of Matt 24:29-30, And both Revelation and Matthew have events that are soon, near and in this generation.
Destruction of the Beast Rev 19:19-21 "19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh."
The primary concern is Israel and then he only mentions the beast in passing. Almost like he is insignificant, the beast is Rome, and of course that isn't insignificant. But he spends a lot of time going over Israel then says oh and we defeated the beast as well and sweeps on past it. Nero was killed in AD68, during the time of the harlot being judged. Jewish war AD67, Nero died in AD68 + Roman civil war, Temple destroyed AD70. This all happens during Christ's judgment. Nero dies in Christ's coming, the focus is on Jerusalem. We see the demise of the beast, but we see the harlot's demise in great detail. We see the beast die by the sword in Rev 13 - which is how Nero did die. Rev 19 the beast and the armies were assembled to fight, Titus thought that in destroying the temple he would destroy Christianity with it - he thought that was the case, so they're all gathered together. Birds eating the flesh is commonly for judgment upon officials and rulers. This imagery is for judgment upon national officials, on civil rulers. Ref; Jer 34:17-20, Deut 28:25-26, Psalm 79:3.
5) Titus was then being praised and worshiped in the Temple: Jospehus War 6 6-1, And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple, (18) and set them over-against its eastern gate. And there did they offer sacrifices to them: and there did they make Titus Imperator (19) with the greatest acclamations of joy
6) 144,000 - Every time a full 1,000 is used it is symbolic in Revelation. Thousand is symbolic in so many scriptures throughout the Bible. 10x10x10 is a number of perfect, 10 fingers, 10 toes. Book full of symbols this is very, very likely not literal - exactly 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.
-Events must be in the first century, Rev 1:1 and Rev 1:3.
-Judgments are falling upon Israel, Rev 1:9 - theme verse
-Apostolic Christianity tends to focus on Jerusalem, Acts 1:4 - After his resurrection go to Jerusalem and wait for power from the mountain on high. Acts 1:8 , Acts 18:21, Acts 20:16, Acts 24:11. Early church had a Jerusalem focus. This is where it all started. It is where Pentacost was, where Jerusalem council in Acts 15. Apostles were headquartered there Acts 8:1.
-John in this book considers non Chrstian Jews to be so-called Jews, not of the synagogue of God but of Satan. Rev 2:9, Rev 3:9. Connections to John 8:31-48.
These servants of God are from the 12 tribes of Israel, they must be Christian Jews. The fact that he is judging the Jews calling them the synagogue of Satan. They have the name of the Lamb written on their forehead.
Much smaller number than the number in Rev 7:9, a multitude so large you cannot count. The 144,000 represents these Christian Jews inside Jerusalem, the angels stop the winds from blowing and create a time for them to escape. It represents a perfect number loved by God, marked by God, protected by the angels of God, and have the Lamb's name on their forehead. They're the True Jews. Romans 2:28-29 - defines the true Jew, inwardly not outwardly defines a true Jew.
This isn't a racial judgment, it is a religious judgment as seen when these smaller number of Chrstian Jews are saved.
Christians being sealed:
2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30, 2 Tim 2:19.
Judgment is coming upon Israel, Jewish Christians are in Israel, God stops the destruction the winds of destruction form coming in and God lets them escape. Rev 6:17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" The next sentence Rev 7:1 Angels hold the window and then explain its God's people who can escape the wrath - the 144,000. W/o a chapter break, it would be much more obvious. Ezek 9:4-9 - Strong correspondance to this part of Revelation. Ezekiel is saying those who are marked by God in Jerusalem are saved from judgment. These are the first fruits from Jerusalem on Pentacost, they're providentially protected by God. Matt 24:16-22 = when you see the abomination flee to the mountains. Acts 2 when they were gathered in Jerusalem Peter preached and 3000 were converted, when they sold their goods and had all things in common, now that was a movement of the Holy Spirit in light of those that owned land in 40 years in Jerusalem, it would be worth nothing. Zero value, they sell the land tho and split the value among brothers. Only place anything like that happens, all the land sold and divided amongst themselves.
The imagery is the angels stopping the winds, stopping Vespasian from rampaging in and killing the Christians inside, giving them a break to escape. The historical correspondence:
Nero was emperor at the time in AD68, His best general is Gadius Vespasian and a lesser general Titus who was Vespasian's son. When Nero heard about the revolt of the Jews, he commissions Vespasian to go down and handle the rebellion. Vespasian and Titus had the city of Jerusalem circled, no one could get out. Wars 4:9:1, "1. And now Vespasian had fortified all the places round about Jerusalem, and erected citadels at Jericho, and Adida, and placed garrisons in them both: partly out of his own Romans, and partly out of the body of his auxiliaries. He also sent Lucius Annius to Gerasa; and delivered to him a body of horsemen, and a considerable number of footmen. So when he had taken the city, which he did at the first onset, he slew a thousand of those young men, who had not prevented him by flying away. But he took their families captive; and permitted his soldiers to plunder them of their effects. After which he set fire to their houses, and went away to the adjoining villages. While the men of power fled away, and the weaker part were destroyed; and what was remaining was all burnt down. And now the war having gone through all the mountainous country, and all the plain country also, those that were at Jerusalem were deprived of the liberty of going out of the city. For as to such as had a mind to desert, they were watched by the zealots. And as to such as were not yet on the side of the Romans, their army kept them in, by encompassing the city round about on all sides." But Nero committed suicide in AD68 and they stopped the seige and pulled back from the seige to wait and see what is happening in Rome. Then Galbo becomes emperor and reigns for 6 months, then Otho becomes emperor and reigns for 3 months, then Vetillius. Then Vespasian's officers back in Rome declared the Emperor ruler of Rome and Vespasian withdraws all together and goes back to Rome.
The Jews thought it was a sign from God that he was not going to judge them when Rome withdrew from the siege. Gallius Nov AD66 started to wage war against the Jews, he was the assyrian governor for Rome - he started to war to Jerusalum but stopped and went back and the Jews thought - God is with us. Then Vespasian comes after that and this happens again, they think God is on our side. They begin building up their supplies once more, but the Christians leave b/c they have the voice of Christ - Luke 21:20 telling them "“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
Rev 7:9-17 The small seed of 144,000 whom God protects will soon grow to a huge multitude of which no one can number of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. Christianity weathers the great tribulation and Judaism is destroyed.
If the age to come was the coming Christian age from Christ's perspective then explained this:
Luke 20:
34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come(Z) and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.
This is destroying all terrestrial millenium to come we are in the millenium or the golden age of the reign in Christ in al is elects.
Phil.3:18 For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,…
Would Pastor Doug be a partial or full preterist?
He is a partial preterist
Even the phrase partial preterist is deceitful as the only dif between partial and full is partial does believe in future resurrection and full belives its past, Might better be called 99%ers
Both incredible unbiblical to unbelief
@@victorcritelli5790 if it’s so incredibly unbiblical, then why is it the historically prevailing reformed position on eschatology?
@@blibbers8843 Why is catholicism the largest denomination, Why did only 800 pastors refuse to bow to Hitler in a 70 Million population WHy did only 7 K bow down to bael The wide and the narrow road is it not?
Honestly, I ran into this rabbit hole month and half ago and can't get any biblical argument yet, Not one, I listen to many from Jeff Durbin Doug Wilson RC Sproul, Gently and several others Many each as well as many debates None has a reasonable biblical defense of it, None can really Fill in the AOD I have heard I believe 5 different arguments on this nothing comes close to fitting scripture None Can Explain 2 thess 2 in a reasonable way Neither at least 2 dozen other scripture that easily cannot be answered
There are a lot of other problems too But Scripture is enough, But they need this preterism to keep there man-centered postmillennial theology
'
@@victorcritelli5790 all do those questions are red herrings, and have nothing to do with the question I asked. Why is preterism unsatisfactory for 2 Thessalonians 2?
If the first Christians didn't see the prophecies fulfilled in the past that's a good indicator that they were taught by the Apostles to expect something that past history didn't fulfill. In fact, in one of the Thessolonians, I believe, Paul actually addresses the spiritualism of prophecy that showed up in his day.
Was Ephesus the antichrist?? Can someone explain this to me?
@Nixolas Leonardo
Since the time of Paul there has been billions of antichrist as is today. To deny JESUS the CHRIST is antichrist. 2\3rds of the world fall into this definition. What a watchman needs to watch for is the beast that being an empire or caliphate. Islam fits the definition perfectly reading from Dan 11:36-45. Most important is it surrounds Isreal, it hates Isreal and want's to destroy Isreal.
A Preterest needs Isreal out of GOD's plan and the church to take their place. Not happening as history and current events proves preterest and postmillennialism in total error.
70 weeks are determined for thy people and thy Holy City. As any one can see both still exist and take up most of the news an UN agenda.
@@rickhuntling7338 Good Points Rick!
Every futurist I've ever known still takes a historicist approach to Revelation chapters 2 & 3.
Question for postmillennialists- when Jesus talked about the temple being destroyed, wasn’t that in response to the talk about His second coming? He didn’t come in 70 AD, so how can this be true?
@@lexle6203so pick and choose rather then read as is? Hm
The gospel specifically says he was talking about his own body being destroyed, and that the Jews misunderstood Him and thought he meant the literal temple.
What do do with 2cd thessalonians 2?
I have been google searching images from all over the world from 1800’s China, Thailand, India, Hong Kong, Australia, Vietnam, Africa, Cuba, Mexico Japan, Chile everywhere has incredible old world architecture that is identical in design and building materials and angles and measurements how is this possible without a period in time the entire world was unified and in peace, these old world structures are cymaticly perfect in the acoustic frequencies they generate, something that we have only just now discovered how to record, all these beautiful structures have a building finger print that can be scientifically used to prove all these structures have common features! I think is fair to assume because of this information that the 1000 years has passed and we are in the Short Season of Satans deception
You probably won't see my question here, but I'm trying to understand this and the one thing that pops out for me is that you're just replacing one kind of dispensationalism with another. Indeed, the 40 years between the crucifixion and 70 AD, the old whatever you want to call it - the old covenant, ended. The Jews/Hebrews had that period to make the transition. But you could call that a transition from one dispensation to another. That's really just nitpicking on my part, but I'm finding the need for precision with the terminology to be critical for understanding this from a doctrinal standpoint. Thanks.
The word isn't the problem. The Westminster Confession also describes these transitions in terms of dispensations. But the word isn't the system of thought known as dispensationalism.
Nope, full preterism still doesn't make sense. Even if emperor Nero was the beast, was Caiaphas the high priest the Antichrist then? Obviously not, so the Antichrist still had not entered the Temple.
These men aren't full preterist heretics.
How about the whole of 2nd Thes 2 Or the AOD? Or even the fact that Jesus coming in the clouds is supposed to be the judgment on Isreal, Yet no matter how you slice it scripture says it is after it just does not work out timewise, Also the entire book of rev many daniel passages Ohh And so many many more
How anyone can carefully review the preterist position and still come away as a futurist is mind boggling to me. This is how Paul must have felt after clearly laying out all the evidence for Jesus's "Christhood" and then seeing the Jews bow up and still stubbornly refuse to believe. There is a whole lot of "knat straining" and "camel swallowing" going on in the Left Behind crowd. When you apply Occam's Razor to this issue you are either left with Jesus was deluded or the preterist position.
I appreciate Doug Wilson's fair treatment and charitable explanations of idealism, futurism, historicism, and preterism, but I must insist that it takes an astounding amount of mental gymnastics to convince oneself of the supposed correctness of preterism, especially its thoroughgoing ("full") variant. Any normal Christian who reads the Book of Revelation with no preconceived ideas will arrive at the futurist interpretation. Historicism and idealism are at least moderately reasonable interpretations, but full preterism is utterly bizarre. So-called evidence of preterism can only be found eisegetically, not exegetically - and it is almost always magnanimous intellectuals and theologians who are convinced of the supposed truth of full preterism.
the age TO COME Teach by Paul cannot be the Christian age because the present age was there till the Pentecost so this age to come it's our eternal state with Christ in Heaven. Mr Doug you forget the A-MILL POSITION in your enumerations ????
@Nero IV Because this world in under the seductions of the devil till the end.In the present time we receive so many glorious benedictions in the Heavenly realm with persecutions but in the age to come or the world to come (our city is in heaven) we will receive eternal life. Mark10:29 And Jesus answered and said, “Verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands for My sake and the Gospel’s,
30 but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the world to come, eternal life.
Too much tap dancing. The spirit of prophecy is evident throughout the NT. I believe he has more "problem passages" to contend with than does the futurist.
Preterists havw two camps. Full and Partial so which Postmill guys are full and which are Partial?
Doug, could I ask why Kenneth Gentry believes we are still in the old age and the age to come is not until Christ returns in our future? He believes Matt 24: 36 onward is reference to our future and was not fulfilled by 70CE
Rather according to postmillenialism the' golden age necessarily precedes the general resurrection
There are none.
Zechariah 14
@@MrSmeagolKitty What about that passage?
Most PostMils skip over a lot of scripture. A basic question would be - if Christ bore the wrath of God, on the cross, in my stead, and Christians are no longer "destined for wrath", then what do you make of the tribulation, in which we see God pour wrath on the earth?
Does the church endure wrath? Bible says they will not.
How do you explain Revelation 19, the "wedding supper" of Christ?
How do you define the army in Rev 19:14?
These are all easy answers
@@xanderLudahl _"Most PostMils skip over a lot of scripture."_
I feel the same about premil.
_"if Christ bore the wrath of God, on the cross, in my stead, and Christians are no longer "destined for wrath", then what do you make of the tribulation, in which we see God pour wrath on the earth?"_
The tribulation seems to be warning "this generation" of "things that must soon take place" and was fulfilled with the events leading up to and following the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The warnings given were exactly so that the church could see the signs and escape the siege, which history reports they did.
_"Does the church endure wrath? Bible says they will not."_
Correct, they escaped the wrath by listening to Jesus's warnings.
_"How do you explain Revelation 19, the "wedding supper" of Christ?"_
It seems to be part of the events on the day of judgement and final day of this age as we transition to the eternal state. I'm not sure if you have a specific concern about it.
_"How do you define the army in Rev 19:14?"_
The rider on the white horse with the double-edged sword is a motif throughout Rev, e.g. 1: 16; 2: 12, 16; 6: 1. He is Christ going through the nation conquering with the double-edged sword coming from his mouth, that is the gospel. The army clad in fine linen is his people, his bride, Christians, and we the same dress on them in verse 8.
We can see several parallel accounts in Rev of the final moments as different enemies are all cast down and the final day commences. We see their final defeat, the final judgement, the marriage supper of the lamb, and the commencement of the eternal state where heaven and earth are made one.
_"These are all easy answers"_
Agreed, I don't know why you think they would be difficult for Postmil or why you haven't heard it before.
Why do people think that 'the spirit of antichrist' or 'the spirit of error' will become, or be born, as a man?
That seems impossible! Only God can do the impossible, Jesus says.
Well, John says beast's number is "the number of a man" (Nero, in that case), so it's a bit understandable.
Canon Press Actually we also read about the man of lawlessness and the deception of Israel by this man.
It’s a man possessed by Satan just like Judas.
@@Amencore
Well in that case, it could be a corporate 'man of sin'' revealed to be as 'the son of perdition' (2Thes.2:3) betraying Christ 'and the church', as well as the Gospel. Why else would Paul use the image of the one 'lost' if not 'the son of perdition' in Jesus' high-priestly prayer (Jn.17:12)...as first Paul writes, 'That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand' (2Thes.2:2). This corporate man is the evil governments of this world 'showing themselves that they are a god', hating that any other god should be worshipped (2Thes.2:4), as 'this mystery of iniquity' was 'already working' when Paul penned this letter, and continues until Christ destroys it 'with the brightness of His coming' (2Thes.2:7,8). And we will overcome this beast/dragon 'by the blood of the Lamb, and by the Word of our testimony; and as we love not our lives unto death' (Rev.12:11). This beast/dragon 'knoweth that it hath but a short time' and is wroth with the Woman[Christ's church], and comes to make war with the remnant of her seed, which are keeping the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ' (Rev.12:12,17). The 'everlasting gospel' is saying to us, 'Fear God [alone], and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come...' (Rev.14:6,7). Know this: 'Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus'!!! (Rev.14:13). By faith and patience we too shall overcome (Rev.21:7,8).
@@CanonPress
Notice what I said a year ago, that 'a spirit of fear' would most likely become literal in this world... "to deceive men. (2Tim.1:7)"
You, and others, seem to be 'pinning the tail on the donkey', Nero, in your interpretations. This matter is 'spiritual', just as Jerusalem in 'spiritually' implied in Rev.11:8.
Ungodly Judaism goes back to Babylon with its interpretations, as Christ-hating Jews today still use their babylonian talmud to deceive. This unfaithful woman is the mother of harlots, and is still 'in bondage with her children' (Gal.4:25, Rev.17:3-7, 17,18).
Mount of olives hasnt split in 2 yet case closed posties. Simple
The phrase “keep you from” in Rev. 3:10 is “tereo se ek” in Greek. Tereo appears 75 times in the Bible and is translated “keep” 57 of those. “Se” means “you”, and “ek”which is translated “from” in Rev. 3:10 is often translated “out of”. It literally means to be out of both the time and place of the event it concerns. Therefore it’s correct to say that the Lord will keep the Church out of the time and place of the hour of trial being referenced in Rev. 3:10. This translation makes Rev. 3:10 agree with 1 Thes. 1:10 where Paul said the Lord will rescue (deliver) the church from the wrath to come.
John 17:15 is part of a prayer that begins in John 17:6 and continues through John 17:19. Jesus was offering it on behalf of His disciples who were there with Him on the night of His arrest. Some try to use this verse as an argument against the pre-Trib rapture. But to do so, they have to change both the purpose and scope of His prayer, which was to seek divine protection from Satan for His disciples.
However, tereo literally means; to guard or protect by keeping the eye upon. It does not mean to remove.
@@Mike-qt7jp ek means by removal
Mike ek means by removal. tereo ek, not just tereo.
@@donhaddix3770 Actually, if you really look in a Greek concordance it can also mean "from." If you join that in context with 'keep" Greek Tereo which means to guard or protect by keeping the eye on, it does NOT mean removal.
@@donhaddix3770 If the verse in context meant remove like you suggest, then all that was needed was "ek" why add "tereo" which as I have already stated, means to guard by keeping the eye on. It is also used in John 17:15, where it says, "I do NOT pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should KEEP them from the evil one." Notice, keep in this verse is "Tereo" which means to guard by keeping the eye upon. Notice this verse has Jesus praying to the Father NOT to take them out of the world, BUT to watch over them and protect them form Satan.
I would think Zechariah 14 would be a problematic passage for this view
So what are the characteristics of the millennium? Is Satan bound or loose during the millennium, and is Satan bound or loose right now?
And does post-millennium mean the entire millennium has past, hence the word post, or that the beginning of the millennium has past and we are currently in the millennium?
Hope that makes sense.
One feature of the millennial period is that the kingdom will enter the world small (like a pebble, a bit of yeast, or a mustard seed to point to some analogies), spread over time, and when the kingdom is complete, it will fill the whole earth.
The pre- post- etc part is about the timing of the bodily return of Christ. On postmil, he returns at the completion of the work of the millennial kingdom. The kingdom is understood to be the church, a kingdom not of this world or like the kingdoms of this world, that started when Jesus was ministering here on earth and 2000 years ago only had 40 people, yet has grown to the point today where around 3 billion people and 1/3 of the total population at least nominally hold Jesus as their Lord. And it is still in the growth period and not yet finished with its mission to spread the gospel and disciple the nation's. Satan is bound and was bound at the cross and resurrection in the way scripture says: that he can't deceive the nations any more.
@@oracleoftroyhe’s bound? Please explain to my how there’s child sex trafficking, celebs worshipping Satan etc. if you think this is the 1000 year peace reign then idk what to tell you honestly
@@vladgor4099 Where does scripture say the binding of Satan would stop all sin? Scripture teaches that he will be bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations. I don't see why we have to interpret his bounds as being more restricted than scripture teaches.
@@oracleoftroy I can’t find my comment that you replied to, can you copy and paste what i said, i don’t remember saying that unless this was from a long time ago
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. In context of 1 Cor. 15, death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection of the church. So he will be putting his enemies under his feet until the rapture (which is after the Trib. BTW). and not in the millennium.
Death goes thru out the Millennium Kingdom so it will end at the end of the thousand years in the eternal state
@@losgoodmusicmandrell8371 I would tend to agree with you, but in context, Paul is speaking about the resurrection of the dead in Christ. This should make us reexamine our position. I believe it is the Jews who go into the Age to come in unregenerate bodies, so they can reproduce and even die, as it says in Isaiah. But the church can do neither. Or maybe there really will be a golden age?
@@Mike65809 You must remember there will be both Jews & Gentiles who come to faith in Christ after the Rapture. So no scripture says only Jews who are living at the second Coming will populate the Millennium Kingdom. Both groups will enter into the Kingdom in their natural bodies. Zech. 14-14-18 confirms this truth.
The pre-millennial view is the only one that lines up with Zech 14:4 when the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ will step on the Mount of Olives. This event happens 1000 years before the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev 20:10-15.
This one unfulfilled prophecy nullifies all other views.
How do preterits deal with Zechariah 14?
This video is odd... I am confused guys. How can Postmillennialism be a preterist? That would mean that the millennial kingdom already happened, and afterwards the second coming came and he is in the past? That is not rational. Most Postmillennialism would be like.. Roman Catholic I think? And they think he is yet to come. Just my opinions but please check me out on facebook.com/jkoskinen I am also a real life messiah and a character representation of Superman.
The Preterist position is that most of the Biblical promises have been fulfilled, not all. The resurrection, return of Christ to earth, final judgement, glorification, and God's eternal dwelling with man on a renewed earth are still future. The judgements that were said to occur to "this generation" occurred to that generation to whom Jesus and John spoke to and were fulfilled in AD 70.
The kingdom is here now and is the Church. It was a tiny mustard seed hiding or itty bitty pebble from heaven hiding in the upper room with a mere 40 believers, and in 2000 years has grown to billions of people worldwide, but it has not yet reached the fullness that God promises. I think the success of the kingdom is a pretty obvious thing to see if we look globally and not just focus on former Christian areas starting from the zenith of their Christianity.
There is a heretical version knows as full-preterist that says all Biblical prophesy is fulfilled, but that is a very niche and problematic viewpoint.
@@oracleoftroy thanks man, I do sorta know that but its just really far off from my view so I often get worried that people maybe are confused? or just making it up for the viewership money? no offense just my noticing of things tho.
@@oracleoftroyfyi Islam is the faster growing religion right now and Christianity is getting ripped apart by LGBTQ invasion of churches. I wonder what your take on this is now considering how much further into hell the world got in just a short 2 years even though it’s supposed to be getting “ better “
@@vladgor4099 Look at the first two years of the American Civil war or WW2. The North and the Allies were losing just about every battle. By premil reckoning, they must have lost the war, right?
I'm not premil, so I'm not looking for everything to be completed immediately and then disappointed and needing to revise everything every decade. Come back to me in another 500-1000 years or so and let's take a look at where things are. Or let's examine Church history over the last 2000 years in 500 year or 100 year chunks and see at a big picture whether the church is shrinking or growing.
But even looking at those liberal denominations, are they growing? No. Islam is growing fast, yet when the church finally gets over dispensational/premil defeatism and starts believing God's promises again, we would regain that position.
Well that was an interesting and confusing video 😳
What are the points that you see as confusing particularly, brother? If you care to interact.
I like the simplicity of truth, through the words of Christ, if quoted correctly. I'm not sure where I stand, maybe a 5th angle. According to Christ, the end ,(of the age? of the one who left us here returning? beginning of tribulation? when it comes to pass, all flesh obeys the ten commandments? end of earth, then new earth?), will come when the gospel OF THE KINGDOM, is preached throughout the world. I know for a fact, without genuine reform, there will be no end in my lifetime, or many lifetimes. So be concerned not, brethren, over any end, as the only end of importance, is judgement day.
The current gospel, according to the vast majority of professing Christianity, isn't about the kingdom of God.
Mt. 24:14
Mark 1:14-15
Truth. You are what the true Jesus calls a wise virgin.
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And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
@AnHebrewChild Interesting you would mention people hearing God. A crowd of Israelites heard God declare the ten commandments too, thus,
Mt. 4:4.
@@eltonron1558 YES.
Therefore whosoever heareth _these sayings of mine,_ and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth _these sayings of mine,_ and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
>
THESE sayings of *mine.*
@@eltonron1558 I just read some other comments you've posted on this channel. (YT shows the most recent 3)
You appear to be one of the promised few who has eyes and ears... to see and hear.
I'll leave it at that.
@AnHebrewChild Saying thank you, just seems insufficient. I do love God.
This isn't true. Read Revelation and ask God to show you.
But revelation was written in 95 AD?
Also, the Greek word for "generation" can also mean "age." Inserting that into Jesus' words, "this age will certainly not pass away until all these things come to pass." That makes a WHOLE lot more sense, and it makes Jesus not look like he's trying to confuse everyone.
Nero doesn't make for a good candidate for the beast as Nero died 68ad.
And? Without a set date on the writing of Revelation it's all speculation and conjecture.
@@chrisj123165so you rather grasp for speculation then read the scripture as it is? Interesting
@@vladgor4099 never stated one way or another, good try though! Next time read the comment as it is ;)
So question ... what happens with the Jews today, can they get saved?
Anyone can be saved
I’m a postmill preterist and I don’t entirely agree with Doug here.
The Bible teaches us that in the last days there will be seasons/times of great difficulty. Meaning that the mountain of the house of the Lord, which in the LAST DAYS will grow above all other mountains and heal all nations, will grow steadily but not without seasons of extreme turbulence and persecution. This is to let us know there will be perilous “times” “seasons” of extraordinary difficulty throughout the church age, as the militant body of Christ advances steadily and eventually reconciles the whole world to God.
As the parable in Mathew 20 tells us, there will be those hired for the Kingdom in later hours (later generations) who will “not bear the burden and scorching heat of the day” as those who advanced the Kingdom in earlier generations and faced far greater persecution and even martyrdom.
Trying to relegate these truths merely to pre-70AD is really unnecessary.
I’m preterist with Oliver discourse, Man of Lawlessness, Revelation and much of the NT imminency passages… but we need to guard ourselves from seeing everything through the preterist lense.
Postmillenialism is a unique eschatology in that it's literally the opposite of scripture.
You are wrong...
ua-cam.com/video/RSWem5QZQV0/v-deo.html
@@rosyrosy2073 There is not a theology easier to debunk than Preterism partial or whatever, I might say pretrib rapture too but preterism is so large of scripture and affects so much of theology it is scary, And its cornerstone is unbelief
@@christdiedandroseagainfory2133 mout of olive will not s[lit till he returns not sure what your point is, don't see how that defends preterism
@@victorcritelli5790
The second coming was PROPHESIED
The Rapture was a MYSTERY and only revealed to the apostle Paul. Case closed
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
King James Version
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Clear as...mud
if we are going to be honest all veiws have what one could call problem passages but preterisim I would say has the most issues ...its why people like sproul used to try hide his belief and present like he was just giving all the different point of veiws so people could make up their own minds but anyone who had spent any consideral time over the years studying theses different beliefs would know he was not presenting a full or honeswt picture of what others believed and cherry picked serverely for his own prefered preterism.
2 thes 2 1-12