Stall Under Load case study: Chevy Equinox (SI Ep. 10.5)
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2017
- This turns out to be one of the most bizzare case studies that I have come across to date...
This 2011 Chevy Equinox 2.4 Direct injected engine falls on its face as soon as you get on the gas. The parts cannon has already been fired multiple times, and the dealerships are out of ammo.
The pressure is on!
Enjoy!
Ivan - Авто та транспорт
Nice diagnosis Ivan. It's truly disturbing to know that out of four dealerships there isn't a single tech capable of making a diagnosis on this. With all of the resources available from the factory it's even more incredible. Way to show em' how it's done Ivan. Thanks!
John Shay Uhm, you don't make a profit replacing $600 PCMs! You make a profit diagnosing the problem efficiently, repairing it right the first time, and minimizing costs involved. The problem is a lack of skilled dealership diagnosticians as Ivan just proved to us. He very clearly pointed that out in case you didn't watch to the end.
This felt like a detective movie. I’m going to get a coffee.
This video was very educative. You kept it real and showed the world how are our daily diagnostic work, especially when facing this kind of problems for the first time. It's time and mind consuming and sometimes you just want to set the darn vehicle on fire, but then, persistence and patience pays off. This video also demonstrates that you have no business solving misfires without a scope; just a simple cam/crank correlation test revealed the problem that the stealerships didn't find. Thanks a lot for all your effort, I really appreciate it.
Ivan, you and Eric O. are my favorites. Keep up the great videos and work!
The greatest diag you have ever done! You are the man 🍺
I admire your tenacity on this car. You refused to enter the diagnosis with prejudice and stuck to the plan of "follow the data" and it paid off. I have learned a lot from watching your videos, especially to "tighten up" my own diagnostic procedures.
Definitely one of my favorite videos, Ivan. All of the dealerships missed an opportunity to educate their techs by letting this one go. Unfortunately I have seen too many times where companies are interested in profits over training and experience; which can only help them become more profitable!
Like I said before, your video are watched from beginning to end. This was a great case study with a logical (back up with data) ending. I really enjoy these Ivan. Thanks for spending the extra time to post videos.
Thanks so much for the feedback, Wyatt. It is my pleasure to share these case studies and have a great discussion in the comments!
Outstanding diagnostic mind keep on keeping on. What a treat on a Sunday morning.
I have seen a few of those turds with chain issues but never had one act like that. Diagnostics well done, Ivan.
Really enjoyed the case study. I see that precisely syncing the pressure transducer(s) to sensors' signals on scope is a modern solution that cannot be duplicated with old techniques. Time to invest in a pressure transducer. It can open up a whole new dimension to test driving -- possibilities are endless.
Hey ivan,WOW,ur AWESOME ...always look forward to ur diagnosis...Super job...
At first sight I was leaning toward a dead spot in the TPS, but I knew that should throw a code. Now that I have a scope to play with I am going to start taking cam crank correlation codes on all kinds of stuff that I can play with. I only have 2 channels and an external trigger on my cheap scope though.
Two channels is better than no channels ;)
Two is ok, you just need more test runs.
I started out on TPS just like you. Wasn't too keen on the dirty TB but damned near shit myself when he said it was a chain jump and then proved it Keeping in mind the ONLY symptom was a fatal stutter just off idle..
WOW..Ivan.! You never cease to surprise me man... I can see your frustration in that, almost painful to watch you suffer from the smoking thinking wheel. LOL Then the exciting Ivan popped up with the answer. YAY..!
And Thank you for not making it into a part 2 episode and leave use hanging in suspense.
Keep these good ones coming, enjoy watching as always.
Cheers
Wow! Awesome diag, Ivan! Splendid work!
Ivan you are the King in logical thinking. And as allways; throwing parts is the most expensive way to repair a car. I think this case is a matter of stretched chain and one tooth off, can be caused by wear due to forgotten oil changes or so.
Nice find Ivan. persistance and determination execellent!
Excellent vid Ivan! Learned a lot about the cam timing on this one!
Great diagnosis Ivan! I think it was a dejavu moment because it was so similar to the 2010!
Interesting case Ivan! Not an easy one. Great job💪
I had something similar to this, ended up changing the vvt solenoids (both) and connectors as per the tsb, fixed it right up. Was expecting to see a compression test to confirm the timing issue, but maybe that would be overkill. Great video, keep em coming
Fantastic diagnostic instincts,job well done!
Awesome job with the diagnostic on the Chevy!
also looking what gave him direction to go with fuel trims once he seen that in closed loop he knew he had a fueling
problem now to see whats causing it nice work ivan enjoyed it thanks
When you're good your good. You're good Ivan great video
As a former gm tech I can tell you based on gm service info, unless its sets the timing codes they arent doing anything with the chains. There is nothing in service info about using a scope to check cam/crank correlation. Good find man.
I can't believe this thing didn't set any correlation codes. Blows my mind!
Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics did you ever figure out what was putting it in open loop? If its in open loop those codes may not be run?
John Shay if people changed their oil every 3000 miles this probably wouldnt be as big of a problem. Gm's oil life system is either the smartest or dumbest thing they ever did depending how you look at it. They basically made the cars disposable after the warranty is up. People will just keep buying new cars rather than spend tons of money to tear the engine down.
As a current GM tech I would have to disagree with this statement. I replace chains constantly on 2.4L LAF, LAP, LE8, LEA, LUK with or without correlation codes. These engines have special policies as well as have issues with
oil consumption.
Did you or anyone try driving the vehicle to see if the correlation codes would set?
I get that if the timing is off it should set right away, but that is not always the case.
Yet another excellent video. As a software developer its obvious to me that GM has attempted to save money on their development team, top developers are expensive but they think of more conditions and situations. Like many attempts to save money, they end up wasting far more. If the chain is off it should trigger a cam correlation fault code.
That was pretty cool! Well done, Ivan!
Outstanding job Ivan.
Lots of younger mechanics (parts changers) never think it through. Ivan, you figured it out. I figured at first that it sounded like a timing problem. I never realized it was that far off.
JD
because they're paid to change parts at the dealer service centers, good old flat rate :))
Wow, I would have expected a chain rattle if timing jumped two teeth. You never disappoint in your problem solving ability.
They might have changed the oil as soon as the rattle happened...but the damage was already done!
The 2.4L equinox is well know for stretched timing chains... and busted chain guides. It's probably burning oil too. Check that PCV too, it's probably plugged up.
Great find. One suggestion. You could have looked at Load, Calculated Load or preformed a V.E. test and found a breathing issue with this vehicle without all the work you did. Remember to always verify the basics on any performance issue first. Still a great find. Good job!
That is a great one Ivan very nice. Sometimes the longer it takes the more we learn from it and as long as we do there is no shame in it and sometimes the gut is right.
Yup developing that "sixth sense" has to come from hard-earned experience. It is very rewarding to finally nail it down :)
The equipment is only as good as the operator. Good thing the scan tools provide what the thinking brain needs. Salute' Ivan..
LOL Keith says it's a good one... way to go Ivan.. velly interesting :) :)
Good one Ivan! Nice troubleshoot!!! damm!!
Yep yep, leave it up to the dealers to throw the "Parts Cannon" at it that's what they always good for, Anyways.... 👌
When you search a bit on those cars on google ,you can see that there are a lot of timing chain problems,even at very low mileage....
Very interesting video.
Can hear the death rattle from the timing chain easily diagnosed by spending 5 min and removing cam cover and inspecting guides and chain slack between cams
Glad you solved it. I was going to suggest checking the cam solenoids as soon as i saw it was an ecotec. My moms ecotec had a similar symptom but thankfully it threw a code for the cam solenoids immediately. Although this equinox the solenoids are probably ok its still an issue with cam timing.
How is it that the dealer guys didn't think that it could be a timing issue? Also, goes to show that sometimes you have to spend the time to look for these types of problems. Not all techs want to spend that time. Great job Ivan.
Damn UA-cam ... shut my notifications off again! GRRRR! Missed this one ...
This was a crazy one! I'd have got mad and never figured it out for days, LOL! Ones like this are SUPER frustrating! Great learning experience for all of us though - thanks for sharing!!
haha this was a bit frustrating for sure! How could a stalling "smart" car not set any codes!?!
I hear that! Wonder what the engineers would say if we asked them that? LOL
Careful Ivan Real estate is expensive on the island!!! Or perhaps you'll become a roving diagnostician!
Nice one bud, fun to listen and watch you think!!!!
Great job Iván thanks for share.
Awesome, you are clever man Mr Ivan, lesson to self: if in doubt disconnect variable cam solenoids many thanks Ivan, sandy
The old 5.7 would set a cam crank relationship code. But I guess this one with v/cam timing won't do it cause it moves around to much. At idle, they should compare cam/ crank. Great find. Nice who dunnit.
Automotive CSI at its best! Good going Ivan!
Nice work Ivan!
Great job Ivan. Thank you and Keith for sharing your cases and knowledge with us.
Excellent video, loved it!
A Chevy Equinox with a timing chain issue, no way. LOL Those 2010-12 are known for that & oil consumption issues. Great find Ivan. Surprised it didn't see coelation codes. Not sure why it had high pressure fuel codes.
NICE JOB brother! You are awesome!
Ivan, my brain got stormed out.Grateful to sharing your insights. This is the way to go for real deep impact learning experience. BTW, can we not see CMP & CKP timing relations?
On the way to becoming a guru! Congratulations.
Nice diagnoses and fix find Ivan. And you used sound logic!
Wouldn't get anywhere without sound logic on this one haha
Another great one Ivan. 38 min well spent
Fantastic job Ivan. For a second or two your frustrated face expression said 'get the dynamite and blow the car up' lol
haha but then we would never know why it ran so poorly!
Very good video man, however i couldnt help but notice that during your diagnosis , you forgot to check the quality of the blinker fluid, or for end play in the muffler bearings.. very important on these newer model chevys lol
Awesome diagnosis!
great job Ivan
Yo Ivan! Fantastic find man! Email me the in cyl waveforms can you? I would like to take a look at them. Did you reanalyze them after knowing the issue to see if you could see the valve timing error on them?
3rd. Your Buddy Came Back to his Senses.
Yea that would be neat to analyze especially if you have the intake camshaft profile. I went back & tried to see if anything stuck out knowing that the intake valve timing is retarded @30 degrees and the compression stroke profile is steeper but w/o degree margins it's hard to tell so I'd be curious if Ivan or you see anything else. It would be neat to see the pressure waveform after the repair. This was a fantastic diagnosis by Ivan!!
Time to call your buddy up! Quick!
Hey Eric, better yet I can swing by sometime and we can analyze these waveforms together! Also, I do want to get the XL-7 Krowned this fall; what location did you take your Tundra to?
Sounds like a plan to me :) I went to the one in Stanley, NY. If you tell them I sent ya they give a discount ;)
Not the fact that is a Chevy it’s more likely the owner not changing oil or other maintenance. Data was showing all other functions were in good order. All brands have problems and it just takes a mechanic that knows to properly troubleshoot. It’s easy to criticize a manufacturer. Thanks again for another outstanding job!
Older pushrod GMs used to be more tolerant of neglected oil changes, and people might still treat the newer ones the same way.
Great job, you earned your money on that one.
Cool video...I have a 2011 buick regal with 2.4 and same symptoms exactly,the funny thing is that it was fine one day and the next day the problem started,my timing chain and guides and tensioner have less than 5000 miles on them...this car is on the 3rd engine and second trans,I have been racking my brain for a month wondering what could be happening and now I have a direction to look
he did prove it was a timing problem the scope waveform pretty much showed that also. anytime there intake cam off timing
with GDI injection the high pressure pump is off also causing fuel pressure codes
nice find it was easy to see this one had you going
Ivan ain't no joke bro, I wana know if this dude ever been stumped. I doubt it, but will he ever tell? Lol. Great job Ivan.
I did get stumped by a BMW X5 once, but it ran better with the MAF sensor unplugged so the customer left it that way haha
As soon as you seen that it works on a quick throttle press, but not a slow one: I immediately thought it was the TPS or the APPS
very well done Ivan thanks
very cool ivan. I would have never guessed. dealers do a ton of timing chains on these vehicles. you would have think that they would have caught that.
One would think, but I doubt many dealers / dealer techs have a scope setup and actually use it. All too often they go on trouble codes for ultimate direction, but as we see here when they don't actually set you have to go back to the basics. So many parts thrown at this car by the dealers without any definitive proof. I hope the owner didn't have to pay for those.
it seems "flat rate" has struck again, read idiot code and swap parts jam out door for $$$
That is awesome how Snap On put the relevant live data and functional tests right on the same screen as the troubleshooter. It would be even better if they allowed you to expand each PID into a graph like you can in the scanner. On a separate note, have you ever thought about putting a non-glare screen protector on your Verus just for better video? There probably isn't one available to directly fit, but cutting down one for something like an iPad Pro would work.
Hey Ivan! this was a great one. You have become my favorite channel to watch along with ScannerDanner. i have a question. Why didnt you question the throttle motor or actuator being bad? Thanks! By the way what country are you from?
Nice diagnosis!
31:36 31:40 Also love the semi in the background with the straight pipes,hitting the Jake brakes!
Hi Ivan
If you can get a check after the repair and check where the injection pulse occurs with the proper timing it would be interesting> My money is on you being correct in your assesment that the injection pulse should be on or very near the intake stroke.
Just excellent. Thx for sharing.
Always great content. What program do you use with your laptop to test the cam and crank sensors?
Good catch!
Great case study. I would also like to analize the in-cylinder pressure transducer waveforms, is there a way you can host them somewhere? Thanks
great vid man fonz from Ann Arbor Auto care" Love ya"
Awesome! How did you come across the known good wave forms for the cam crank signal?
Great diagnostic effort. Would you confirm that the timing chain/tensioner and/or sprocket/phaser replacement solved the problem you identified? I have an Equinox with mysterious problems, and inquiring minds need to know if the repair was successful. Equinoxes are extraordinarily frustrating to diagnose without shooting the parts cannon at them.
I just finished doing chains on one of these (the one I worked on was a 2013 Equinox, with 60k miles on it) The one I worked on was setting a code for the intake VVT system performance (not a cam/crank correlation code, and nothing for the exhaust). I checked it with a pressure transducer and it was clearly visible in the compression waveforms. I calculated BOTH cams to be off by about 25* (in cylinder waveforms are not as accurate for exact valve opening/closing so it could have been 30). The chain was stretched to the point of the tensioner being about 1/8" from fully extended, after 60k miles! If you ever work on one of these and think about replacing the water pump while you're there, don't. Exhaust and transfer case are both in the way and make it so it takes as long to just replace the water pump as it does to do the chains.
Wow that's some crazy chain stretch in 60k miles. Poor maintenance or poor quality? Thanks for the heads up on the water pump, Kevin. I say if it ain't broke don't touch it haha
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I'd say the stretch was probably a little bit of both. The engine was pretty grungy inside but not quite bad enough to say it needed replaced. The client apparently bought it in 2015 and although they had some sort of aftermarket warranty, they couldn't provide the warranty company with receipts showing regular maintenance...Inside of the engine looked like it had 150+k miles on it.
Wish y'all were closer to me. My Terrain occasionally stalls during initial startup. Once rpms reach 900, it starts to choke out. Sometimes, when I begin driving, engine power reduces for a couple of seconds before running normal. Runs fine after warmed up. I replaced both actuators after a code came up but no change.
This is the best case study of yours I’ve seen to date Ivan. Awesome Diag & lateral thinking. Do you find it helps the diagnostic process to talk it out to the camera? Cheers 👍
Thanks, Steve! Sometimes I have to turn the camera off and focus 100% ;)
the fun ones are always the most frustrating while diagnosing!
This was one of the best you have ever done. I think I've seen every video. Except the pay-per-view CVT tear down, shamefully.
Thank you! And go watch the CVT teardown! It really was fascinating :)
It's not pay-per-view anymore.
I’m having the same issues same year car. I’m 26 minutes into this video and I’m feeling your frustration
Did you come up with the same result/ remedy? Mine is identical symptom, but new complete timng set and no change.
@@bsparks78 no I’m learning to live with it. Neutral at stop lights. That’s the half ass fix for me. I replaced the air intake manifold and throttle body. The oil smell went away but rough idle and stall still present
Which cam sensor is used for the high pressure fuel pump delivery angle?
Proud of u brother
Very well done
:-)
Nice find!!
In the dealer you get paid one hour. if you take three hour to fine the problem you only get paid one hour .and on warranty you get .5 but i got to say you very good at what you do
That explains the parts cannon lol
Nice diagnostic work. What were the solenoids that were disconnected in order to find the issue?
AWESOME! is this why the injector pulse was in a diferent spot than you expected? triggerd by intake cam sensor?
Great information
Nice educational vid brother. Could you have use the Verus to check the correlation instead of the pico?
That one must have been frustrating, wow
do we suspect a TPS associated issue, for guidance?
Watching this one again.
How do you charge for something like this? Aren't most diagnostic 1 hour flat rate?
only half way through the video at the moment - almost wondered if it was a TPS - where the switching breaks over from no throttle to throttle - curious to see what you find.