I love these discussions. You did a great job. So much of what fans in this universe is almost word of mouth and what we think is cannon or lore is just something propagated by word of mouth and not actually supported. So I like how you break it down and reference. Great job. Next up you should tackle Alpharius lore and how he wasn’t last found
@@SandmanofTerra as did I it was crazy to learn he was found on Terra and raised and trained by Malcador. How he skulked around the palace etc. it makes the finding those Alpha legion sleeper cell under the palace in the final books make sense
The Lion's and Guilliman's antagonism to each other is VERY foundational to each other's philosophies, it is part of their world view and how the other is incongruent. Roboute is entirely focused on the system, his goal is to solve the paradox of an efficient bureaucracy. This requires having a place for everything, a system to account for everything, no random variability that falls outside of the tolerance of the system. If one layer of the system is insufficient for accounting, then a new protocol/subsystem/plan is layered on top. The problems, stresses and losses come and go, but the system remains. The Lion is more like an arbiter, an ultimate authority within a system, but not bound by the system. "Loyalty is its own reward" is an excellent summary statement of this, it is a person who doesn't care how he is perceived, doesn't care about where he fits, there is only the singular task of validating loyalty. The Lion only cares about doing what is needed to achieve that. There's a key concept within loyalty; doing what is wanted vs doing what is needed. A system is an approximation of what the loyal task is, it turns the loyal task into a protocol, where the system produces tasks or requirements that are wanted, and those wants align with what is needed. A well designed system should produce near perfect alignment between what is wanted and what is needed. But it is still a proxy, not what is wanted in a direct sense. What happens when that alignment isn't the case? What happens what what is needed isn't aligned with what is wanted? This is the Lion's purpose, to do what is needed, when it is needed, when there isn't a luxury of time or resources for the system to develop to account for the problem. Such a position existing is like an ever-present spectre telling Roboute that his purpose will fail, that Roboute can build the perfect system, yet the arbiter is still needed. This is foundationally unsettling without being antagonistic, its a serious philosophical divide. What Roboute fails to grasp is that The Emperor designed one son to be the system builder and one son to be the aribiter, and that was His system. From Lion's view, when he was informed of what happened to his Legion: " ‘Guilliman,’ Lion El’Jonson hisses, his grief abruptly overtaken by blistering rage. ‘Never content with the work of others! He even wanted to improve on the designs of our father! " If Lion is an arbiter, then Roboute categorically dismissed the purpose of the Dark Angels, stripped them of their role and function, all to be under Guilliman's system, with Guilliman's view of what their function is. Guilliman had a massive oversight in ignoring that the function of the Lion and the Dark Angels is to be outside Guilliman's system. This divide is why Lion and Guilliman's dynamic is so interesting. To further contrast, both can build systems, Lion being martial focused and Guillian being governing focused, they both can build government and military systems. But there is a divide between them: - Guilliman is about having one whole system, one multi-tool if you will, that can be applied to everything. One perfect tool. - Lion's systems are about having access to multiple specialized tools, to always have the perfect tool for the job, or close enough to still be effective. The Hexagrammatom is the distillation of this, a system to deliver the tool needed for the job. Roboute multitasks for one perfect conceptual ideal. The Lion hyper-focuses to have ready access to an array of imperfect, but effective ideals.
Throughout "Son of the Forest" Lion was basically saying things like "I do not LIKE Guilliman, but man do i wish he was here right now! Not only would his organizational skills and multitasking be SO helpful, but I'll also have one of my brothers with me. I wouldnt be alone."
Not necessarily true…. That is conflicted to a degree considering they both forgave each other and Guilliman said he has nothing but love and upmost Respect for the Lion. They had their differences like any brothers do. But in the end, each other is all they have against the terrors.
@@vagabond4576 I don' think they're saying the same thing at all! in fact, there are a number of both obvious and subtle differences between their two perspectives. Gotcha.... ;)
When he met Dante, he said that you reminded me of your brother Guillemen, and the Lion's reaction is wonder that he isn't alone. These two may not have liked each other in the past, but one is in a literal depression, and the other is jumping all across the Imperium duct tapping it together. When they meet, I wouldn't be surprised if they go into a hidden room, hug, and cry about how hard its been.
I see it like any real family. You'll often have siblings or other family members that you don't really LIKE, but you do LOVE them. My brother is basically my best friend, but I do have family like that.
The Lion has a very diffrent personality now compared to 30k. His more brash and prideful nature has become more level headed and logical. A perfect match for Bobby G and if The Lion ever gets to Terra, it will be interesting to see what happens when he goes to see Big E.
I kind of want to see Bobby G and the Lion get into an argument, then Guilliman sighs and goes, "Brother, can I speak with you in private for a second?" And then after Bobby G pulls the Lion aside, he just punches Lion in the face and just goes off on the Lion.
Yeah and when he finds out Guilliman is still around and alive, you can almost FEEL the palpable relief. He mentions not being alone, but I don't think the being-alone thing would matter if the other Primarch was someone more aloof or indifferent, but Lion knows Guilliman; he knows what he is and what he is capable, and I can easily imagine that upon hearing he's both around and doing his best to save their father's imperium, he probably gets a lot of solace from that. If ANY of this brothers were to come back at humanity's darkest hour and try to hold everything together through the sheer force of their ability and will, it would be Guilliman who'd likely have the best shot (Dorn in 2nd place), and the Lion likely knows that.
@@foolslayer9416I imagine the Lion feeling the punch coming but just staying like: Let's give this to my lil bro, he needs validation. Otherwise, it is going to be embarrassing explaining the whooping I would give him xddd
@@cassiusaureliusanima It would actually be funny if it just devolved into a sibling fist fight. Where the two primarchs are just rolling around just exchanging punches.
@@foolslayer9416 hahahaha guilliman then laughing it off and the lion sees the moment to strike but remembers that time with Leman and he just chuckles. It would be amazing, not gonna lie
I still just think it's silly that Imperium Secundus is considered such unspeakable treachery by everyone, to the point that the history of it must be hidden in shame. It was a logical contingency plan to gather loyalist forces when they thought Terra was lost, and they immediately abandoned it the moment they had reason to believe Big E was still alive again. Guilliman didn't even claim the seat of power for himself - they thrust it upon Sanguinius, who himself didn't want it. And Sanguinius then went on to valiantly defend Terra and board the Vengeful Spirit. So.. what exactly? Hawk Boy was also a heretic then? A "thief"? It's dopey.
Wasn’t there a scene where Malcador and the Emperor are playing regicide and they’re talking about the primarchs, where the Emperor says that Robute is out the building empires because that’s what he does. I read that as he wasn’t really upset about it
Now that you mention it, as old and somewhat insane as Bjorn is, if anyone knows where Leman Russ might be it is him. It could easily be a secret he was keeping for his primarch that he has forgotten over the last 10,000 years. An honor duel with the Lion could be just the thing to bring that memory forth. Maybe he would even unknowingly yell it out, something like "Try going to X and my father will deal with you himself, cub!". During one of his long hibernations even an important memory like that could be lost as his sanity slips.
Bjorn: First Son of the Emperor, I am Bjorn the Fellhanded and I will honor the name of my Gene Father Leman Russ, Prepare yourself or die. Just a Bjorn is about to land his blow the Lion catches The Fellhanded's blow by the wrist and they Forest Walk to a strange Daemon world where Leman is gathering Lost Spacemarines from failed warp jumps, or redeemed from being tricked into serving chaos. Leman Russ is now Helping Ferrous Manus the Primarch of the Lost and the Damned. The Lion loses in an Honor Duel with Russ, they hug it out and all three return where Guilliman slaps the shit out of Russ before a group hug with the bros... or something like that, need something nice and loveable about these killers before we start to shatter the whole thing again.
I've always said that G Man & The Lion becoming compatible with each other to a degree none of the other Primarchs experienced is just a matter of time; and I say it because of their complimentary natures. Ultimately, both are hardlined pragmatists before anything else; willing to take the objective steps necessary to reach the given goal. Both are fairly adaptable, though each in their own way, and they take the reality of the situation for what it is then proceed with the most effective action possible. Ultimately, Lion will get over his distrust of Guillimans intentions (if he hasn't already) and G Man will get over his nitpicking of Lion's mannerisms and methods (if he hasn't already) simply because they recognize the sheer necessity of each other for victory's sake. That said, G Man ruling as Lord Commander with The Lion spearheading a new imperial campaign fueled by Dark Age Weaponry is about the best thing the Imperium could hope for right now. If there was ever two Primarchs that needed to come back, it was these two.
Long story short ultramarines and DA are the complimentary legions not Word bearers and ultramarines. Both are jacks of all trade key difference being one has selective focus and another spread focus. Lion is a general who will get a task and gets it done. Guilliman is a general that focuses on the whole and trys to keep it intact. This id why Guilliman and his geneline work for statesmanship and defense, while Lion and his geneline work better for offense and military. Which is why they are the best first primarchs to return. Now you have a statesman to fix it and a general to fight for it, guilliman has more time to build and Lion can focus on his goal to defend humanity.
@@logandelaharpe6362I've wondered for decades now what would happen if Dorn showed back up with both hands intact. That would open a whole other can of worms, wouldn't it? 🤔🤔🤔
They really are perfect for each other. Distrust to a degree is potent in any workplace to spur proper planning. Perfect for defeating the tyranids. A monster hunter and supercomputer
Maybe He realized that He would need diplomacy. 😎 That, or he did shove 20 Warp gods into mortal bodies to make the Primarchs and He had no choice on the matter.
I picture the Lion all ready to chew Guilliman out for the state of the Imperium or making himself Lord Commander, only to see how tired and depressed Guilliman looks and realize that he didn't want any of this, and indeed he feels like he's woken up to a nightmare just like The Lion. They're basically the only two people alive in the Imperium who understand what has been lost in the last ten millennia. I'm sure their personalities will provide some sandpaper over time, but I could honestly even see Guilliman shed a tear because he finally has a brother to speak to again, and someone who understands how he feels. It will be super interesting. I don't think the two collectively having Big E's sword and shield is accidental symbolism either.
It will be tense. Maybe we'll also see some build-up to that i.e. one hearing of the other's actions and disapproving them. Guilliman stands there, all regal and composed, the Lion walks out of a ship all stern and severe. For a moment, none approaches the other. Then they both start walking towards each other. While walking, Guilliman's composure fades, revealing his tension and nevousness, while the Lions' face opens and lightens. They stand before each other, ackward silence. Then both start out "brother". Guilliman can't continue speaking. The Lion realizing how worn and alone his brother is simply hugs him, Guillaman not evading or anything, cause he can't move. (Depending on how corny one wants to get, Guillaman sheds a single tear). And they both venture out with their chapters to tear off some of Abbadon's arms and Erebus a new one.
38:53 I think this is also a nice parallel to when Dante met the Silent King. Those same feelings that the Lion felt is what Dante felt seeing Szarekh wearing a similar deathmask of Sanguinius.
Supporting your idea of DA/SW team up to go find Russ. My brother was telling me how Son of the Forest had a lot of parallels with Arthurian legend. Arthur comes to a ruined fortress, finds a grievously wounded fisher king, who sends him on the quest for the holy grail to save him. What did Leman Russ go to find? The Tree of Life. Same legend, different versions. Calling it now: SW/DA team up to find the thing to resurrect the Emperor. Maybe something to do with Valdor returning too because that’s a thing as well isn’t it
All I want is a unit of loyal war hounds from before the Nails to arrive in current setting, warp time Flux type thing, and wage their own crusade on chaos.
From what we saw in The Beast series, there's a good chance Vulkan isnt the same Primarch when he comes 10k years later. Hell, he seemed pretty jaded and almost despondent by the end of The Seige. Really bummed we wont be getting any Salamanders codex supplements, pretty much 98% of Salamanders lore year on year. +sigh+
Yeah it would be nice to get some more sallies development. From the last supplement (8th) it looked like they were reasonably close to the next treasure
Salamanders are the main Astartes present in the Pariah Nexus show, has pretty good (bordering on VERY good) animation and they are portrayed accurately
I see the Lion being the Crusading knight leading Legions of Astartes to crush the Traitors and redeem his son's, save his brothers sons and protect humanity. This will allow Guilliman to start rebuilding and remain in the wings for when things like the Tyranids show up to deal with them.
I do not think the scene in Ruinstorm will be the last time the Lion and Roboute meet. The Lion makes it to Terra at some point after Horus' death and before his return to Caliban. It would be incredible if the Lion is on Terra and, somehow, misses meeting Roboute.
He really has mellowed. Don't believe he even wants to be warmaster/Lord Solar anymore, if offered. That being said, i sincerely do hope, that he puts the Inquisition to the sword.
@@AzrealMaximus sure there are individual inquisitors and groups of them that do horrible things like the ones who ordered their chapter master getting taken out But even individual and groups of dark angels blood angels etc do horrible things The dark angels attacked terra looking for cypher lol taking out loyal members of the imperium even a custodian Should the lion wipe out all his genesons and the Great angels genesons cause of the horrible things some of them have done?
@@tjoverton7581 maybe I wasn't clear, most of the shenanigans come from the Ordo hereticus, were not part of the original founding when Malcador established the inquisition. Plenty of SM Chapters have been purged by continuous combat and no support because of some slight to the administratum, take for instance Sanguinious' sons, the lamentors. There is a viable point for needing the hereticus, but there also needs to be a purge within its ranks. What's next, because the captain general admonishes a Inquisitor, they'll try to cull the custodians?
I've been waiting for hours to drive into this video. You're content is so precise and supported by references. It's really some of the best WH40k content on UA-cam. Thank you so much for your videos!
I think I am enjoying these videos as much as you enjoy doing them :) I am fairly new to Warhammer 40K and just going down the rabbit hole with all the lore and there is so. much. content. I LOVE IT. I appreciate the time you take to do this and I will continue to enjoy these videos. Thank you.
@user-yq3fz9ch5q yes. There are ways to move past that but Josh Reynolds left BL and other authors aren't touching it. Josh would either need to come back or ask another BL author to take over the storyline for anything to happen with that storyline. Josh is writing other books now and seems happy, no idea what's up for him in the future.
I have been looking for something like this. A good deep dive on the dynamic yet complex relationship between these two living Primarchs. Great insight!
After all the crap Vulkan went through, it's clear he has severe PTSD. Unless they retcon him being a Perpetual, he is still out there. But it's clear he can't or just does not want to assist The Imperium.
i wouldn't blame him, the current imperium is miles and miles away from his father's envision so. I don't blame him for hating an Empire rotten to its core.
Just earned a new sub here mate! You speak so well and i can hear the passion and knowledge radiating from you, gets me pumped to waste another couple hours on Baldermort losing myself in the lore again haha I am dying for Jaghatai to be next!
The Lion aged for the same reason Primarchs and Astartes have scars. They heal but they don't regenerate back completely. Trying to heal up from the fight took its toll and instead of just scarring he aged too.
Was that stated or is that more of a head canon thing? I just assumed he aged because he wasn't in stasis like Guilleman was. I always assumed even the Primarchs did in fact age even if its absurdly slow and 10k years is enough to show some of those years
@@antonkovalenko364To be fair I could see it going either way honestly. Healing does shorten your lifespan/result in defects so it actually could be that or a mix of both. A personal theory I like is that he's been awake for a hot minute he just ended up in the warp or teleporting all over the universe trying to get a grasp on his forestwalk ability. Both because the Lion would just be so much cooler with experience to go with the wrinkles AND because I've always found it weird loyalist primarchs probably have less lived experience and years than most of their sons do lol
I used to play the game in the 90's.. In 2nd edition!!.. Some people love it for challenge of the game!.. Others for the epic lore!.. Some for the collecting and painting the amazing models!.. Some for a magical blend of it all.. I kinda wish sometimes i still played, always loved the game, i just have no spare time in my life right now.. But that's fine.. Just enjoying the vast universe of lore is enough for me at this point.. It's arguably the best part of the 3 main elements of the hobby.. Without the plot and lore.. Would collecting and playing this game feel so epic, if it didn't have an epic world!.. If you can do, or do nothing else.. The lore for the win!!.. 😂😂❤❤
Strength to strength amigo, keep it up! Been here for a while now and I think this move to chatting as opposed to reading a load of info is ace and semi unique to the UA-camrs I watch most often! I find it far more engaging, does make doing the dishes a little harder tho.
@@SandmanofTerra you keep making it, and I'll keep watching it. As someone that really enjoys the creators with a strong understanding of the lore/setting and well thought out conclusions about the events happening within, you rank up there with Lutein09. Different presentations, but well presented all the same. I really can't express how enjoyable it is to not get constantly bombarded by beaten to death memes or just unreasonable takes from people that don't have enough context to justify them. It truly makes all the difference for me.
@19:00 I will admit I'm not the biggest lore expert, but I've imagined for a while that when they finally meet it'd be hilarious to see the first thing Lion do is punch his little brother in the face, only to start hugging Robby *immediately afterwards*
Hahahaha . Just thinking about ep1 season 1 of red drawf . Rimmer being gillaman an dave lister being lion . Holly being the emp. Now as for the cat would have to be corax
Don't dare apologise for that crazy tangent about Vashtor and the old one's device!!.. I hadn't heard that part of the lore.. That has crazy implications, practically anything could happen in the lore with something like that in play!!.. We could get Horus, Sanguinius or Ferrus or anyone back in the universe and actual game from something like that!.. Crazy potential from that.. Was nice to find all that out!!.. 😂😉👊👊
18:50 - I agree. I think they will embrace in some way. They both share so much now, they were alone and now are not, they both miss their brothers first and foremost Sanguinius, and they both want to take the fight to their traitorous brothers. Cannot wait for some war stories with them together.
What’s great about Warhammer is how it envisions people, 30000 years from now, not really changing a bit. Hell, just the fact that the only way you could conceivably unite mankind was the existence of an eternal with near limitless technical knowledge, magical powers, and 30000 years of practical experience, says all it needs to about human nature.
Great analysis! One thing I would counter to Gulliman being the best counter for the Tyranids is that both Primarchs using their strengths would be necessary. The Lion had the incredible ability to focus on the one thing and he used that to defeat the Khrave, which use a form of long distance mind control that appears to be not dissimilar to the Hive Minds ability over its warriors. I think it has been the suggested the Ragda were similar when using their slave armies. Also, the Dark Angels were the Emperor's Exterminators which fits with the Bug vibe the Tyranids give.
Now that you mention it, as old and somewhat insane as Bjorn is, if anyone knows where Leman Russ might be it is him. It could easily be a secret he was keeping for his primarch that he has forgotten over the last 10,000 years. An honor duel with the Lion could be just the thing to bring that memory forth. Maybe he would even unknowingly yell it out, something like "Try going to X and my father will deal with you himself, cub!".
I cant imagine the Kahn has been captured by the drukari, he's probably just lost in the webway going a bit mad and perhaps transitioning from the master of horses to something more like a biker mobster rolling around in there, breaking and stealing the drukari's stuff to survive, perhaps gathering to his banner any astartes or humans he can liberate from the dark eldar in a mirror of his original story except this time, its a series of winding and maze like paths instead of wide open fields. I can also imagine the activation of the Wyrmwood device by vashtorr, which is related to the webway, will have gotten the attention of the Kahn, the dark eldar and anyone else in or who uses the webway even if their response is yet to come. Additionally, it seems the release pace is 1 chaos and 1 loyalist primarch per eddition or so, but they started with Magnus who had no partner. Guilliman came out along side mortarion. Assuming they keep the pattern and 1 of the Twins is alive, that will leave 1 loyal primarch to release on his own as a finale to this saga of returning heros of yore. And of all of them, I think Russ is the one who could be that finale reveal better than any other, so I bet Leman Russ will not be next, and will probably be the last. This edition my bet is that we will either see Fulgrim, Lorgar or perturabo as the chaos primarchs returning next (most likely fulgrim but they might throw a curveball) and for the loyalists I can see potential for either Vulkan, The Kahn, Corvus Corax or Rogal Dorn coming back. Vulkan is liable to show up whenever if they write that the Salamanders complete their quest for his artifacts, and his humanity and kindness would make for a good juxtaposition to Fulgrim's cruelty. If Lorgar comes back next as a Demon of chaos undivided, it'd be a mistake to not bring Corax back at the same time for their epic but probably inconclusive duel. If Perturabo returns, I can't help but feel that Dorn should arrive along side him to continue their rivalry, which I imagine would also heavily involve them both having to simultaneously deal with the tyranids because perturabo has been mentioned as active in segmentum Pacificus, carving out his own little realm that just so happens to be directly in the way of leviathan, and the iron warriors have done freaky stuff with tyranids in the past like turning a hive ship into a massive obliterator. Given recent developments in Dorn's character in the end and the death, I can't help but feel like he'll be much more akin to the Black Templars than the Imperial Fists, all Blood for the Emporer and Skulls for the Golden Throne and maybe just a liiiiiiiittle nuts, or perhaps more like the Crimson fists if post iron cage he comes back from the madness he's developing a bit and/or hangs out with Vulkan for a while.
The honor duel is a weird thing now. In 6th (I think) it was in the codexas actual stratagem. But in Russ's book he specifically mentions the fued is over. The fellhanded might have actually heard that so it's an interesting dynamic
7:00 is this why the Nova Marines (likely) successor chapters are the *DARK* Sons and the *ANGELS* of Fury? As a sign of respect to carry on the nobility of their saviors, if only in name, not blood.
I love the idea that Dante and, perhaps, Lemun Russ will help The Lion and G man come together. I just want them to immediately sync and know exactly what to do before any other craziness. But! We'll see. Games Workshop doesn't mess around so I know I only have the best to expect (especially because Primarch models sell so well, that doesn't hurn, either).
It's funny how everyone comes to think the term "jack of all trades" is an insult because the end of that quote is "a jack of all trades, a master of none but better than being a master of one." Also quite funny is how Roboutte finds it hard to work with someone who keeps secrets, and yet the emporer kept the most secrets of all.
@SandmanofTerra not at all. The video was awesome with lots of insightful things to consider for the primarch meeting in the future. You have earned a sub sir!
I have no doubt that they will be glad to see one another. It's how well they work together that will decide the future of the imperium. I can imagine the Lion won't have a nearly as much of a careful hand with the current institutions of the empire a Bobby G. The first thing he did was recruit the non-chaos Fallen so I i think at least something as big as the Hexarchy is bound to happen when the rest of the imperium hears the Lion El Johnson is back.
I'd imagine a scene aboard the Vengeful Spirit after the battle at Wyrmwood. There is a room with a giant crystalline structure. Traitors walk past and kick it or bash it with weapons and taunt it. It remains silent and cold. In that room spreads a mist. It grows dark, yet the smell of mulch and leaves and dew permeate the air. Vines and branches grow from the walls. Restless guards dont know where to look and before an alarm can be raised black armoured warriors step out of the mists and slay them silently. Then the massive hooded knight steps forward to face the crystal shard. He touches it tenderly for a moment....before drawing his sword. The Lion returns from his stealth mission regaining a shard of Sanguinius that now lives in his mind. The Dark Angel and the Blood Angel are now one.
Guilliman is the best for fighting the Tyrraninds and The Lion is best for fighting chaos. I don't remember if it was in one of the Arks of Omen novels or Lion, Son of the Forest where The Lion absolutely waffle stomps a war band of plague marines(I don't remember if they were Death Guard or a war band of Nurgle-aligned traitor astartes). The scant few survivors of the war band reported back to their superiors and were absolutely terrified as they described what attacked them, describing it like a beast that struck out of the shadows and just absolutely devastated their numbers.
I see the lion and Horus like the older brothers of the primarchs (for anyone who has older brothers like me I look up to them there accomplishments and achievements but there are times I want to strangle them)
And yet it was Horus who went to rogal and roboute for advice even thinking it like he’s going to his older brothers Horus is one of the younger primarchs
My theory on how the meeting between the lion and guilliman will go is both of them are doubting each other through the book until they meet and the lion sees guilliman who is in a way broken and tired and as he walks to guilliman he tries to speak to the lion on how hard it's been and trying to justify his actions on being lord commander. The lion in between the monologue starts to take his helmet off which stops guilliman in his tracks seeing the lion so old, he puts his hand on guillimans shoulder and days something on the line of you are not alone anymore brother.
Honestly the Lion doing some forest walking and Sanguinius appears before him and gives him a message as he has even better vision then the Emperor and the Lion get to talk to his brother and then bring Vengence on Abbadon and Vashtorr. It would be epic
Lion and Guilliman to have a spat. Sigilite returns (with a new model) to sort it out and takes over the Inquisition. Leads us into the next Beta Bequin novel.
Unfortunately the grey shield sergeant who was tasked by RG to find out about the BT crusade that a custodian was sent with a element of Primaris. The sergeant was supposed to protect Fabian, but also his executioner. Fabian will have a large spot in trying to unravel what RG has attained at this point, more so for getting THAT book by a agent of Nurgle.
Oh! Sanguinius! It seems the door is open to him returning in some fashion, it seems communication with either the Lion or Roboute would be a good beginning for that.
With sanguinius communicating and his soul free a certain Someone that roboute knows could maybe fix him granted the blood angels have been draining his blood for 10 000 years so
I would say if anyone would have a problem with Papa Smurf, The Half and Half chapter (formerly legion), and the Space Vampires forming an "imperium" its going to be the Inquisition...and definitely the black templars who are you know...crazy...
Beorn and the lion should have a pretty epic get down where beorn gets Fuxked up the whole time, but shows deep tenacity and gameness so the lion pulls a golden age dreadnought chasis outta his dark angel entrusted bag of goodies and we get a super dreadnought beorn
I think it would be a serious moment. More cautious for Roboute than for the Lion. At most, the Lion would approach a self restrained cautious roboute and with the regretful contemplative Lion now he may, hug Roboute, who in turn would be concerned, as this is the Lion, with a shadow of joy but, no way resistant to the action.
Another thing thats odd anbout the relationship with the lion and the khan is that... If they are so close... Why then does he seek out magus prior to going to terra in the horus heresy and state (paraphrasing) "i came here to you for counsel, the one person i thought i could talk too". He basically states that out of his brothers magnus is the only one he felt he could confide in/seek counsel from. I think with the lion changed, and being more thoughtful and not so probe to act rashly, and with guillleman desperate for a brother to share the burden of him having to carry the entire imperium... things might be different this time when they meet.
I believe that Roboute and Lion will at first be incredulous at the fact that they are actually seeing each other in the flesh and alive,and after either Rouboute or Lion will come out with a snarky remark of some sort,but than they will embrace one another in relief that they are not alone and that their brother is there with them to support and help them. I truly hope GW doesn't take 20 years to make it happen.
The Conundrum of Leman Russ return is the start of the End of the Imperium. He said that he would return in the Darkest hour of the Space Wolves when he left. He would return when things are at their worst in the Imperium. It hasn't reached this point yet and as much as I love Space Wolves Leman Russ will likely be the last Primearch returning.
It was said the Lion would return during the darkest hour of the Imperium, yet here he is. The Imperium is literally cut right in half. It can't GET any worse than it already is unless all the Space Marines fucking die or the Emperor gets murdered. The darkest hour of the Space Wolves could happen at any point, what with Magnus attacking their planet every other Tuesday.
Remember, this is no longer 30k - polite, methodical, somewhat trusting unless proven otherwise, more of an organizer than figher Guiliman. He now has fought probably most primarchs of all of them ( Mortarion, Magnus, Alpharius and one more I think ) He dealt with Hexarchy. He put entire Crusade up. He met directly with Emperor. He learned a lot from Custodes. Also he had benefit of time to get adjusted.
the way you describe Guilliman as a multi-tasker is spot-on, immediately making me imagine him as a Starcraft 2 player with 400+ APM (actions per minute) 🤣🤣🤣
I’ve always thought it would be cool if they ever have the emperor come back terra is taken over abaddon or some other grave threat walks up to the throne and kills the emperor then a rushing force turns into an explosion as he’s revived reanimated and fully healed banishing any daemons on terra and destroying the traitor
Do more of this content! The overproduced music and voice is a bit much sometimes. Just you sat back talking to the camera, I could listen to this for hours!
I love these discussions. You did a great job. So much of what fans in this universe is almost word of mouth and what we think is cannon or lore is just something propagated by word of mouth and not actually supported. So I like how you break it down and reference. Great job. Next up you should tackle Alpharius lore and how he wasn’t last found
That's a great shout, I really enjoyed his Primarch novel.
@@SandmanofTerra as did I it was crazy to learn he was found on Terra and raised and trained by Malcador. How he skulked around the palace etc. it makes the finding those Alpha legion sleeper cell under the palace in the final books make sense
Possible to know where the information on the Lion and the Warhawk being close was sourced from? Faves so that intrigues me.
Enjoyed immensely
@@surtrpicks horus heresy book 9. Crusade
The Lion's and Guilliman's antagonism to each other is VERY foundational to each other's philosophies, it is part of their world view and how the other is incongruent.
Roboute is entirely focused on the system, his goal is to solve the paradox of an efficient bureaucracy. This requires having a place for everything, a system to account for everything, no random variability that falls outside of the tolerance of the system. If one layer of the system is insufficient for accounting, then a new protocol/subsystem/plan is layered on top. The problems, stresses and losses come and go, but the system remains.
The Lion is more like an arbiter, an ultimate authority within a system, but not bound by the system. "Loyalty is its own reward" is an excellent summary statement of this, it is a person who doesn't care how he is perceived, doesn't care about where he fits, there is only the singular task of validating loyalty. The Lion only cares about doing what is needed to achieve that.
There's a key concept within loyalty; doing what is wanted vs doing what is needed.
A system is an approximation of what the loyal task is, it turns the loyal task into a protocol, where the system produces tasks or requirements that are wanted, and those wants align with what is needed. A well designed system should produce near perfect alignment between what is wanted and what is needed. But it is still a proxy, not what is wanted in a direct sense.
What happens when that alignment isn't the case? What happens what what is needed isn't aligned with what is wanted?
This is the Lion's purpose, to do what is needed, when it is needed, when there isn't a luxury of time or resources for the system to develop to account for the problem.
Such a position existing is like an ever-present spectre telling Roboute that his purpose will fail, that Roboute can build the perfect system, yet the arbiter is still needed.
This is foundationally unsettling without being antagonistic, its a serious philosophical divide. What Roboute fails to grasp is that The Emperor designed one son to be the system builder and one son to be the aribiter, and that was His system.
From Lion's view, when he was informed of what happened to his Legion:
" ‘Guilliman,’ Lion El’Jonson hisses, his grief abruptly overtaken by blistering rage. ‘Never content with the work of others! He even wanted to improve on the designs of our father! "
If Lion is an arbiter, then Roboute categorically dismissed the purpose of the Dark Angels, stripped them of their role and function, all to be under Guilliman's system, with Guilliman's view of what their function is. Guilliman had a massive oversight in ignoring that the function of the Lion and the Dark Angels is to be outside Guilliman's system.
This divide is why Lion and Guilliman's dynamic is so interesting.
To further contrast, both can build systems, Lion being martial focused and Guillian being governing focused, they both can build government and military systems. But there is a divide between them:
- Guilliman is about having one whole system, one multi-tool if you will, that can be applied to everything. One perfect tool.
- Lion's systems are about having access to multiple specialized tools, to always have the perfect tool for the job, or close enough to still be effective.
The Hexagrammatom is the distillation of this, a system to deliver the tool needed for the job.
Roboute multitasks for one perfect conceptual ideal.
The Lion hyper-focuses to have ready access to an array of imperfect, but effective ideals.
Throughout "Son of the Forest" Lion was basically saying things like "I do not LIKE Guilliman, but man do i wish he was here right now! Not only would his organizational skills and multitasking be SO helpful, but I'll also have one of my brothers with me. I wouldnt be alone."
Not necessarily true…. That is conflicted to a degree considering they both forgave each other and Guilliman said he has nothing but love and upmost Respect for the Lion. They had their differences like any brothers do. But in the end, each other is all they have against the terrors.
You guys are basically saying the same thing. Too many people out here disagreeing for no reason but just to do so. @@UnRu1eD
@@vagabond4576welcome to the Internet friend 😂
@@vagabond4576 I don' think they're saying the same thing at all!
in fact, there are a number of both obvious and subtle differences between their two perspectives.
Gotcha....
;)
Guillimans organizational skills and multitasking skills are amazing, I'm sure he will make someone a very lovely wife 🎉
When he met Dante, he said that you reminded me of your brother Guillemen, and the Lion's reaction is wonder that he isn't alone. These two may not have liked each other in the past, but one is in a literal depression, and the other is jumping all across the Imperium duct tapping it together. When they meet, I wouldn't be surprised if they go into a hidden room, hug, and cry about how hard its been.
Would be a hell of a scene
I see it like any real family. You'll often have siblings or other family members that you don't really LIKE, but you do LOVE them. My brother is basically my best friend, but I do have family like that.
They will be the blondest and so finest of friends. The family resemblance speaks volumes.
both basically like elder guy hugging each other after their family pass out
The Lion has a very diffrent personality now compared to 30k. His more brash and prideful nature has become more level headed and logical. A perfect match for Bobby G and if The Lion ever gets to Terra, it will be interesting to see what happens when he goes to see Big E.
I kind of want to see Bobby G and the Lion get into an argument, then Guilliman sighs and goes, "Brother, can I speak with you in private for a second?" And then after Bobby G pulls the Lion aside, he just punches Lion in the face and just goes off on the Lion.
Yeah and when he finds out Guilliman is still around and alive, you can almost FEEL the palpable relief. He mentions not being alone, but I don't think the being-alone thing would matter if the other Primarch was someone more aloof or indifferent, but Lion knows Guilliman; he knows what he is and what he is capable, and I can easily imagine that upon hearing he's both around and doing his best to save their father's imperium, he probably gets a lot of solace from that. If ANY of this brothers were to come back at humanity's darkest hour and try to hold everything together through the sheer force of their ability and will, it would be Guilliman who'd likely have the best shot (Dorn in 2nd place), and the Lion likely knows that.
@@foolslayer9416I imagine the Lion feeling the punch coming but just staying like: Let's give this to my lil bro, he needs validation. Otherwise, it is going to be embarrassing explaining the whooping I would give him xddd
@@cassiusaureliusanima It would actually be funny if it just devolved into a sibling fist fight. Where the two primarchs are just rolling around just exchanging punches.
@@foolslayer9416 hahahaha guilliman then laughing it off and the lion sees the moment to strike but remembers that time with Leman and he just chuckles. It would be amazing, not gonna lie
I still just think it's silly that Imperium Secundus is considered such unspeakable treachery by everyone, to the point that the history of it must be hidden in shame. It was a logical contingency plan to gather loyalist forces when they thought Terra was lost, and they immediately abandoned it the moment they had reason to believe Big E was still alive again. Guilliman didn't even claim the seat of power for himself - they thrust it upon Sanguinius, who himself didn't want it. And Sanguinius then went on to valiantly defend Terra and board the Vengeful Spirit. So.. what exactly? Hawk Boy was also a heretic then? A "thief"? It's dopey.
Wasn’t there a scene where Malcador and the Emperor are playing regicide and they’re talking about the primarchs, where the Emperor says that Robute is out the building empires because that’s what he does. I read that as he wasn’t really upset about it
@@andrewbaer2820 I guess everyone needs a hobby. It is also nice that dad approves Robutes.
I would see some inquisitors throthing at the mouth and shouting *_"I knew it!!"_* when learning about it, but aside from that, not much more. B/
Imagine if Bjorn challenges Lion to honor duel and Lion decides that it's unfair and goes to find Leman just to fight him.
That would be so lion.
Now that you mention it, as old and somewhat insane as Bjorn is, if anyone knows where Leman Russ might be it is him. It could easily be a secret he was keeping for his primarch that he has forgotten over the last 10,000 years. An honor duel with the Lion could be just the thing to bring that memory forth. Maybe he would even unknowingly yell it out, something like "Try going to X and my father will deal with you himself, cub!". During one of his long hibernations even an important memory like that could be lost as his sanity slips.
@@thenson1Halo That would be the mother of all convenient councidences.
I can imagine them going off in a buddy cop/off couple story to find him :)
Bjorn: First Son of the Emperor, I am Bjorn the Fellhanded and I will honor the name of my Gene Father Leman Russ, Prepare yourself or die.
Just a Bjorn is about to land his blow the Lion catches The Fellhanded's blow by the wrist and they Forest Walk to a strange Daemon world where Leman is gathering Lost Spacemarines from failed warp jumps, or redeemed from being tricked into serving chaos. Leman Russ is now Helping Ferrous Manus the Primarch of the Lost and the Damned. The Lion loses in an Honor Duel with Russ, they hug it out and all three return where Guilliman slaps the shit out of Russ before a group hug with the bros... or something like that, need something nice and loveable about these killers before we start to shatter the whole thing again.
I've always said that G Man & The Lion becoming compatible with each other to a degree none of the other Primarchs experienced is just a matter of time; and I say it because of their complimentary natures. Ultimately, both are hardlined pragmatists before anything else; willing to take the objective steps necessary to reach the given goal. Both are fairly adaptable, though each in their own way, and they take the reality of the situation for what it is then proceed with the most effective action possible. Ultimately, Lion will get over his distrust of Guillimans intentions (if he hasn't already) and G Man will get over his nitpicking of Lion's mannerisms and methods (if he hasn't already) simply because they recognize the sheer necessity of each other for victory's sake.
That said, G Man ruling as Lord Commander with The Lion spearheading a new imperial campaign fueled by Dark Age Weaponry is about the best thing the Imperium could hope for right now. If there was ever two Primarchs that needed to come back, it was these two.
If only Dorn was around to help defend what the imperium still has
Long story short ultramarines and DA are the complimentary legions not Word bearers and ultramarines. Both are jacks of all trade key difference being one has selective focus and another spread focus. Lion is a general who will get a task and gets it done. Guilliman is a general that focuses on the whole and trys to keep it intact. This id why Guilliman and his geneline work for statesmanship and defense, while Lion and his geneline work better for offense and military. Which is why they are the best first primarchs to return. Now you have a statesman to fix it and a general to fight for it, guilliman has more time to build and Lion can focus on his goal to defend humanity.
@@logandelaharpe6362I've wondered for decades now what would happen if Dorn showed back up with both hands intact. That would open a whole other can of worms, wouldn't it? 🤔🤔🤔
We need more Salamanders Primarchness in this Primarchness Rebirth.
They really are perfect for each other. Distrust to a degree is potent in any workplace to spur proper planning.
Perfect for defeating the tyranids. A monster hunter and supercomputer
I've said it before. At first, The Emperor made The Lion. Then, he realized he better tone the next batch down a little bit.
sanguinius is perfect QwQ i would let him drink me dry
Maybe He realized that He would need diplomacy. 😎
That, or he did shove 20 Warp gods into mortal bodies to make the Primarchs and He had no choice on the matter.
People also really underestimate the earned relationship between Russ and the Lion.
That's true, Russ says all is good between them at the end of his primarch novel
I picture the Lion all ready to chew Guilliman out for the state of the Imperium or making himself Lord Commander, only to see how tired and depressed Guilliman looks and realize that he didn't want any of this, and indeed he feels like he's woken up to a nightmare just like The Lion. They're basically the only two people alive in the Imperium who understand what has been lost in the last ten millennia. I'm sure their personalities will provide some sandpaper over time, but I could honestly even see Guilliman shed a tear because he finally has a brother to speak to again, and someone who understands how he feels. It will be super interesting. I don't think the two collectively having Big E's sword and shield is accidental symbolism either.
It will be tense. Maybe we'll also see some build-up to that i.e. one hearing of the other's actions and disapproving them.
Guilliman stands there, all regal and composed, the Lion walks out of a ship all stern and severe. For a moment, none approaches the other. Then they both start walking towards each other.
While walking, Guilliman's composure fades, revealing his tension and nevousness, while the Lions' face opens and lightens.
They stand before each other, ackward silence. Then both start out "brother". Guilliman can't continue speaking. The Lion realizing how worn and alone his brother is simply hugs him, Guillaman not evading or anything, cause he can't move. (Depending on how corny one wants to get, Guillaman sheds a single tear).
And they both venture out with their chapters to tear off some of Abbadon's arms and Erebus a new one.
38:53 I think this is also a nice parallel to when Dante met the Silent King.
Those same feelings that the Lion felt is what Dante felt seeing Szarekh wearing a similar deathmask of Sanguinius.
They don't like each other but,they respect each other I believe.
Supporting your idea of DA/SW team up to go find Russ. My brother was telling me how Son of the Forest had a lot of parallels with Arthurian legend. Arthur comes to a ruined fortress, finds a grievously wounded fisher king, who sends him on the quest for the holy grail to save him. What did Leman Russ go to find? The Tree of Life. Same legend, different versions.
Calling it now: SW/DA team up to find the thing to resurrect the Emperor. Maybe something to do with Valdor returning too because that’s a thing as well isn’t it
The Tree of Life is probably Isha, so that would give the Elves some new shit.
Both thier joytoy figures are gonna get along nicely on my shelf. Lol
All I want is a unit of loyal war hounds from before the Nails to arrive in current setting, warp time Flux type thing, and wage their own crusade on chaos.
Im sure Trayzen got a few in his library.
From what we saw in The Beast series, there's a good chance Vulkan isnt the same Primarch when he comes 10k years later. Hell, he seemed pretty jaded and almost despondent by the end of The Seige. Really bummed we wont be getting any Salamanders codex supplements, pretty much 98% of Salamanders lore year on year. +sigh+
Yeah it would be nice to get some more sallies development. From the last supplement (8th) it looked like they were reasonably close to the next treasure
Salamanders are the main Astartes present in the Pariah Nexus show, has pretty good (bordering on VERY good) animation and they are portrayed accurately
@@KevinJohnson-cv2no Awesome Im waiting for them all to release so I can binge them over and over for a month.
He’d probably be less jaded if he discovered a few of his non-demonic brothers walking around. Vulkan needs hugs too sometimes
@@BriarLeaf00there’s only three episodes unfortunately and the last one just released. So get binging
I see the Lion being the Crusading knight leading Legions of Astartes to crush the Traitors and redeem his son's, save his brothers sons and protect humanity. This will allow Guilliman to start rebuilding and remain in the wings for when things like the Tyranids show up to deal with them.
I hope the next primarch to come is Jagathai Khan 😭😭😭
Id love to just find out what he's been doing!
No, Leman Russ!
No, Rogal Dorn.
No, Ferrus Manus.
No, Clonegrim
Free-form Warhammer discussion is something I needed in my listening schedules.
I do not think the scene in Ruinstorm will be the last time the Lion and Roboute meet. The Lion makes it to Terra at some point after Horus' death and before his return to Caliban. It would be incredible if the Lion is on Terra and, somehow, misses meeting Roboute.
I totally agree, that's actually something I talk about later on in the video. Sorry there's a bit of a break aha, I will edit it down
He really has mellowed. Don't believe he even wants to be warmaster/Lord Solar anymore, if offered.
That being said, i sincerely do hope, that he puts the Inquisition to the sword.
It’s odd seeing people say primarchs should attack the inquisition when the inquisition only exits cause primarchs turned traitor
Yeah, but fuck em
@@tjoverton7581helsreach The Celestial Lions🤷♂️
@@AzrealMaximus sure there are individual inquisitors and groups of them that do horrible things like the ones who ordered their chapter master getting taken out
But even individual and groups of dark angels blood angels etc do horrible things
The dark angels attacked terra looking for cypher lol taking out loyal members of the imperium even a custodian
Should the lion wipe out all his genesons and the Great angels genesons cause of the horrible things some of them have done?
@@tjoverton7581 maybe I wasn't clear, most of the shenanigans come from the Ordo hereticus, were not part of the original founding when Malcador established the inquisition.
Plenty of SM Chapters have been purged by continuous combat and no support because of some slight to the administratum, take for instance Sanguinious' sons, the lamentors. There is a viable point for needing the hereticus, but there also needs to be a purge within its ranks. What's next, because the captain general admonishes a Inquisitor, they'll try to cull the custodians?
I've been waiting for hours to drive into this video. You're content is so precise and supported by references. It's really some of the best WH40k content on UA-cam.
Thank you so much for your videos!
legend! Glad you enjoyed it!
In all seriousness mate , your one of my favourite content creators. Keep up the amazing work please. An a thank you for taking time to make these .
And here I thought Corvus and Vulcan's roadtrip was bad ass. Lion and the Wolves going to pick up Papa Wolf would be AMAZING!
I think I am enjoying these videos as much as you enjoy doing them :) I am fairly new to Warhammer 40K and just going down the rabbit hole with all the lore and there is so. much. content. I LOVE IT. I appreciate the time you take to do this and I will continue to enjoy these videos. Thank you.
Glad you like them!
Same here. I'm new to it as well and my UA-cam is now just 40k lore, can't believe I waited so long to get into such a wonderful deep universe.
I wish Josh Reynolds would either come back to BL or allow someone to take over the Fulgrim Clone storyline.
Isn't the clone with Trazyn in his museum?
@user-yq3fz9ch5q yes. There are ways to move past that but Josh Reynolds left BL and other authors aren't touching it. Josh would either need to come back or ask another BL author to take over the storyline for anything to happen with that storyline. Josh is writing other books now and seems happy, no idea what's up for him in the future.
@@MiddleAgedGuy73 thanks, it's a shame he left, but glad he's still writing.
An absolutely brilliant and insightful video. Brought up some points of view I hadn't considered.
I have been looking for something like this. A good deep dive on the dynamic yet complex relationship between these two living Primarchs. Great insight!
After all the crap Vulkan went through, it's clear he has severe PTSD. Unless they retcon him being a Perpetual, he is still out there. But it's clear he can't or just does not want to assist The Imperium.
i wouldn't blame him, the current imperium is miles and miles away from his father's envision so.
I don't blame him for hating an Empire rotten to its core.
@@undercovertakodachi4301sometimes to get rid of the rot... One must burn it away
Just earned a new sub here mate!
You speak so well and i can hear the passion and knowledge radiating from you, gets me pumped to waste another couple hours on Baldermort losing myself in the lore again haha
I am dying for Jaghatai to be next!
Thanks so much dude!
Roboute doesn't want Lion as emperor because he's too secretive? The Emperor must be laughing his ass off
At least, Lion did learn to understand that he's not always in the right.
Guilliman always knew he may not be. 😎
The Lion aged for the same reason Primarchs and Astartes have scars. They heal but they don't regenerate back completely. Trying to heal up from the fight took its toll and instead of just scarring he aged too.
Was that stated or is that more of a head canon thing? I just assumed he aged because he wasn't in stasis like Guilleman was. I always assumed even the Primarchs did in fact age even if its absurdly slow and 10k years is enough to show some of those years
@@PragabondMy thought as well.
@@antonkovalenko364To be fair I could see it going either way honestly. Healing does shorten your lifespan/result in defects so it actually could be that or a mix of both.
A personal theory I like is that he's been awake for a hot minute he just ended up in the warp or teleporting all over the universe trying to get a grasp on his forestwalk ability. Both because the Lion would just be so much cooler with experience to go with the wrinkles AND because I've always found it weird loyalist primarchs probably have less lived experience and years than most of their sons do lol
The reunion of Gulliman and Lion in 40k is my most expected scene in the current setting, since they both "grow up" a lot
I cannot wait until Grimnar kicks the bucket and Bjorn crosses the Rubicon to lead the Space Wolves through the Wolf Time
Great job mate! I’ve never been interested in playing the game but I love the lore because of people like yourself. Thank you.
I used to play the game in the 90's..
In 2nd edition!!..
Some people love it for challenge of the game!..
Others for the epic lore!..
Some for the collecting and painting the amazing models!..
Some for a magical blend of it all..
I kinda wish sometimes i still played, always loved the game, i just have no spare time in my life right now..
But that's fine..
Just enjoying the vast universe of lore is enough for me at this point..
It's arguably the best part of the 3 main elements of the hobby..
Without the plot and lore..
Would collecting and playing this game feel so epic, if it didn't have an epic world!..
If you can do, or do nothing else..
The lore for the win!!..
😂😂❤❤
The next Primarch has to be the wild card. 3 people come into mind Corvus, Jaghatai, Or Leman.
Strength to strength amigo, keep it up! Been here for a while now and I think this move to chatting as opposed to reading a load of info is ace and semi unique to the UA-camrs I watch most often! I find it far more engaging, does make doing the dishes a little harder tho.
Haha! Thanks very much, really appreciate the support
Really enjoy your content mate, keep it up!
You legend, appreciate the support!
@@SandmanofTerra you keep making it, and I'll keep watching it. As someone that really enjoys the creators with a strong understanding of the lore/setting and well thought out conclusions about the events happening within, you rank up there with Lutein09. Different presentations, but well presented all the same. I really can't express how enjoyable it is to not get constantly bombarded by beaten to death memes or just unreasonable takes from people that don't have enough context to justify them. It truly makes all the difference for me.
@19:00
I will admit I'm not the biggest lore expert, but I've imagined for a while that when they finally meet it'd be hilarious to see the first thing Lion do is punch his little brother in the face, only to start hugging Robby *immediately afterwards*
I could see that tbf 😂
Hahahaha . Just thinking about ep1 season 1 of red drawf . Rimmer being gillaman an dave lister being lion . Holly being the emp. Now as for the cat would have to be corax
Keep doing this format. I really enjoy listening to these. ❤️
"HE DID WHAT,WITH A WHAT? GUILLIMAAAAÀNNN" 🤣
The Kharn captured by Darkeldars.. Naw dog.. they dont have the speed for that.
Don't dare apologise for that crazy tangent about Vashtor and the old one's device!!..
I hadn't heard that part of the lore..
That has crazy implications, practically anything could happen in the lore with something like that in play!!..
We could get Horus, Sanguinius or Ferrus or anyone back in the universe and actual game from something like that!..
Crazy potential from that..
Was nice to find all that out!!..
😂😉👊👊
I believe it's in the vashtorr books.
18:50 - I agree. I think they will embrace in some way. They both share so much now, they were alone and now are not, they both miss their brothers first and foremost Sanguinius, and they both want to take the fight to their traitorous brothers. Cannot wait for some war stories with them together.
Good work bro!! That was great!!!
What’s great about Warhammer is how it envisions people, 30000 years from now, not really changing a bit. Hell, just the fact that the only way you could conceivably unite mankind was the existence of an eternal with near limitless technical knowledge, magical powers, and 30000 years of practical experience, says all it needs to about human nature.
Sick video man loved it
I think the key factor in their relationship will be respect, as while they may not see eye to eye they both respect each other
Great analysis! One thing I would counter to Gulliman being the best counter for the Tyranids is that both Primarchs using their strengths would be necessary.
The Lion had the incredible ability to focus on the one thing and he used that to defeat the Khrave, which use a form of long distance mind control that appears to be not dissimilar to the Hive Minds ability over its warriors.
I think it has been the suggested the Ragda were similar when using their slave armies. Also, the Dark Angels were the Emperor's Exterminators which fits with the Bug vibe the Tyranids give.
Now that you mention it, as old and somewhat insane as Bjorn is, if anyone knows where Leman Russ might be it is him. It could easily be a secret he was keeping for his primarch that he has forgotten over the last 10,000 years. An honor duel with the Lion could be just the thing to bring that memory forth. Maybe he would even unknowingly yell it out, something like "Try going to X and my father will deal with you himself, cub!".
I so happy to be a Warhammer superfan during this time when we have loyalist Primarchs walking the galaxy,TV shows, videogames etc
Love your channel man!
I cant imagine the Kahn has been captured by the drukari, he's probably just lost in the webway going a bit mad and perhaps transitioning from the master of horses to something more like a biker mobster rolling around in there, breaking and stealing the drukari's stuff to survive, perhaps gathering to his banner any astartes or humans he can liberate from the dark eldar in a mirror of his original story except this time, its a series of winding and maze like paths instead of wide open fields. I can also imagine the activation of the Wyrmwood device by vashtorr, which is related to the webway, will have gotten the attention of the Kahn, the dark eldar and anyone else in or who uses the webway even if their response is yet to come.
Additionally, it seems the release pace is 1 chaos and 1 loyalist primarch per eddition or so, but they started with Magnus who had no partner. Guilliman came out along side mortarion. Assuming they keep the pattern and 1 of the Twins is alive, that will leave 1 loyal primarch to release on his own as a finale to this saga of returning heros of yore. And of all of them, I think Russ is the one who could be that finale reveal better than any other, so I bet Leman Russ will not be next, and will probably be the last. This edition my bet is that we will either see Fulgrim, Lorgar or perturabo as the chaos primarchs returning next (most likely fulgrim but they might throw a curveball) and for the loyalists I can see potential for either Vulkan, The Kahn, Corvus Corax or Rogal Dorn coming back. Vulkan is liable to show up whenever if they write that the Salamanders complete their quest for his artifacts, and his humanity and kindness would make for a good juxtaposition to Fulgrim's cruelty. If Lorgar comes back next as a Demon of chaos undivided, it'd be a mistake to not bring Corax back at the same time for their epic but probably inconclusive duel. If Perturabo returns, I can't help but feel that Dorn should arrive along side him to continue their rivalry, which I imagine would also heavily involve them both having to simultaneously deal with the tyranids because perturabo has been mentioned as active in segmentum Pacificus, carving out his own little realm that just so happens to be directly in the way of leviathan, and the iron warriors have done freaky stuff with tyranids in the past like turning a hive ship into a massive obliterator. Given recent developments in Dorn's character in the end and the death, I can't help but feel like he'll be much more akin to the Black Templars than the Imperial Fists, all Blood for the Emporer and Skulls for the Golden Throne and maybe just a liiiiiiiittle nuts, or perhaps more like the Crimson fists if post iron cage he comes back from the madness he's developing a bit and/or hangs out with Vulkan for a while.
Great vid👌
The honor duel is a weird thing now. In 6th (I think) it was in the codexas actual stratagem. But in Russ's book he specifically mentions the fued is over. The fellhanded might have actually heard that so it's an interesting dynamic
Yeah it's super interesting how the lore changes between editions
I believe, at this point, it's just a tradition between the two Chapters.
7:00
is this why the Nova Marines (likely) successor chapters are the *DARK* Sons and the *ANGELS* of Fury? As a sign of respect to carry on the nobility of their saviors, if only in name, not blood.
I love the idea that Dante and, perhaps, Lemun Russ will help The Lion and G man come together. I just want them to immediately sync and know exactly what to do before any other craziness. But! We'll see. Games Workshop doesn't mess around so I know I only have the best to expect (especially because Primarch models sell so well, that doesn't hurn, either).
@34:34 - “- but often times better than a master of one.”
All I know about Lion and "Ghillie"man is
"Conrad is in your city. Let me nuke it."
"No"
"Just one city bro"
"No"
"Please?"
"No"
Wow the thumbnail makes them really look like brothers compared to the other primarchs
It's funny how everyone comes to think the term "jack of all trades" is an insult because the end of that quote is "a jack of all trades, a master of none but better than being a master of one."
Also quite funny is how Roboutte finds it hard to work with someone who keeps secrets, and yet the emporer kept the most secrets of all.
That's a good point. It may just be me being dense!
@SandmanofTerra not at all. The video was awesome with lots of insightful things to consider for the primarch meeting in the future. You have earned a sub sir!
Brings to mind something from Unremembered Empire. RB said "any loyal eon..."
This is great content you're doing great
Rumors from the Warp (Valrak) suggest Leman Russ is the next Primarch coming back.
So Russ is definitely the most likely to return imo, purely from a narrative and financial (given the SW range) pov
Yet the wolfs have seen a vision of the lion and a lightning bolt returning nothing on russ
@@logandelaharpe6362lightning bolt is white scars yes? Do you think The Lion and the Wolves will go looking for The Khan?
It is an awesome story for the future, Sandman! ❤👏 thank you for your work, brother 😊
I have no doubt that they will be glad to see one another. It's how well they work together that will decide the future of the imperium. I can imagine the Lion won't have a nearly as much of a careful hand with the current institutions of the empire a Bobby G. The first thing he did was recruit the non-chaos Fallen so I i think at least something as big as the Hexarchy is bound to happen when the rest of the imperium hears the Lion El Johnson is back.
the lion and guilly need to make a pilgrimage to the the golden sarcophagus
I'd imagine a scene aboard the Vengeful Spirit after the battle at Wyrmwood. There is a room with a giant crystalline structure. Traitors walk past and kick it or bash it with weapons and taunt it. It remains silent and cold. In that room spreads a mist. It grows dark, yet the smell of mulch and leaves and dew permeate the air. Vines and branches grow from the walls. Restless guards dont know where to look and before an alarm can be raised black armoured warriors step out of the mists and slay them silently. Then the massive hooded knight steps forward to face the crystal shard. He touches it tenderly for a moment....before drawing his sword.
The Lion returns from his stealth mission regaining a shard of Sanguinius that now lives in his mind. The Dark Angel and the Blood Angel are now one.
Guilliman is the best for fighting the Tyrraninds and The Lion is best for fighting chaos.
I don't remember if it was in one of the Arks of Omen novels or Lion, Son of the Forest where The Lion absolutely waffle stomps a war band of plague marines(I don't remember if they were Death Guard or a war band of Nurgle-aligned traitor astartes). The scant few survivors of the war band reported back to their superiors and were absolutely terrified as they described what attacked them, describing it like a beast that struck out of the shadows and just absolutely devastated their numbers.
Lion: You look old.
Guilliman: I feel old.
I see the lion and Horus like the older brothers of the primarchs (for anyone who has older brothers like me I look up to them there accomplishments and achievements but there are times I want to strangle them)
Pretty much 😂
And yet it was Horus who went to rogal and roboute for advice even thinking it like he’s going to his older brothers
Horus is one of the younger primarchs
My theory on how the meeting between the lion and guilliman will go is both of them are doubting each other through the book until they meet and the lion sees guilliman who is in a way broken and tired and as he walks to guilliman he tries to speak to the lion on how hard it's been and trying to justify his actions on being lord commander. The lion in between the monologue starts to take his helmet off which stops guilliman in his tracks seeing the lion so old, he puts his hand on guillimans shoulder and days something on the line of you are not alone anymore brother.
Corax needs to come back from the eye of terror ready to lead the Raven Guard for some revenge against the traitors.
Oh man, a book where Lion goes on a crusade to find Russ would be amaaaaazing
Next should be Dorn sporting the emperor’s lightning claw.
Honestly the Lion doing some forest walking and Sanguinius appears before him and gives him a message as he has even better vision then the Emperor and the Lion get to talk to his brother and then bring Vengence on Abbadon and Vashtorr. It would be epic
Everyone forgets the rest of the saying “a jack of all trades is the master of none………but is oftentimes better than the master of one.”
Konrad Curze- the Midnight Bomber who bombs at midnight! Baby!
Lion and Guilliman to have a spat. Sigilite returns (with a new model) to sort it out and takes over the Inquisition. Leads us into the next Beta Bequin novel.
That would be a big twist!
I think you mean the hero
When it comes to knowledge of imperium secundus, when the book is given to Fabian, my first thought was “what will Valoris and the Custodes do?”
The Custodes: THIS IS WHAT WE'VE TRAINED FOR
Custodes knows about the whole thing. Colquan implies it to Guilliman.
Custodes knows everything. They are much more pragmatic than you think
Unfortunately the grey shield sergeant who was tasked by RG to find out about the BT crusade that a custodian was sent with a element of Primaris. The sergeant was supposed to protect Fabian, but also his executioner. Fabian will have a large spot in trying to unravel what RG has attained at this point, more so for getting THAT book by a agent of Nurgle.
prediction, bjorn the fell handed gets stabbed through the chest by the Lion in an honor duel.
Oh! Sanguinius! It seems the door is open to him returning in some fashion, it seems communication with either the Lion or Roboute would be a good beginning for that.
With sanguinius communicating and his soul free a certain Someone that roboute knows could maybe fix him granted the blood angels have been draining his blood for 10 000 years so
I just want Gman and lion to hug it out so much.
I would say if anyone would have a problem with Papa Smurf, The Half and Half chapter (formerly legion), and the Space Vampires forming an "imperium" its going to be the Inquisition...and definitely the black templars who are you know...crazy...
Beorn and the lion should have a pretty epic get down where beorn gets Fuxked up the whole time, but shows deep tenacity and gameness so the lion pulls a golden age dreadnought chasis outta his dark angel entrusted bag of goodies and we get a super dreadnought beorn
37:52 Every time this is brought up:
The Lion has AuDHD.
As someone with it that is...literally what it's like.
The Lion: WHAT THE HELL!!!
Guiliman: Yes..
The Lion: The Khan will roast us
I think it would be a serious moment. More cautious for Roboute than for the Lion. At most, the Lion would approach a self restrained cautious roboute and with the regretful contemplative Lion now he may, hug Roboute, who in turn would be concerned, as this is the Lion, with a shadow of joy but, no way resistant to the action.
Cool. I love this shit. It's obvious the intricacy and sophistication are important to you as well.
Thanks very much!
Another thing thats odd anbout the relationship with the lion and the khan is that...
If they are so close... Why then does he seek out magus prior to going to terra in the horus heresy and state (paraphrasing) "i came here to you for counsel, the one person i thought i could talk too".
He basically states that out of his brothers magnus is the only one he felt he could confide in/seek counsel from.
I think with the lion changed, and being more thoughtful and not so probe to act rashly, and with guillleman desperate for a brother to share the burden of him having to carry the entire imperium... things might be different this time when they meet.
I believe that Roboute and Lion will at first be incredulous at the fact that they are actually seeing each other in the flesh and alive,and after either Rouboute or Lion will come out with a snarky remark of some sort,but than they will embrace one another in relief that they are not alone and that their brother is there with them to support and help them. I truly hope GW doesn't take 20 years to make it happen.
The Conundrum of Leman Russ return is the start of the End of the Imperium. He said that he would return in the Darkest hour of the Space Wolves when he left. He would return when things are at their worst in the Imperium. It hasn't reached this point yet and as much as I love Space Wolves Leman Russ will likely be the last Primearch returning.
It was said the Lion would return during the darkest hour of the Imperium, yet here he is. The Imperium is literally cut right in half. It can't GET any worse than it already is unless all the Space Marines fucking die or the Emperor gets murdered. The darkest hour of the Space Wolves could happen at any point, what with Magnus attacking their planet every other Tuesday.
"could you kill me? ... if you tried?"
"idk maybe?" is the funniest thing ever lmao
Remember, this is no longer 30k - polite, methodical, somewhat trusting unless proven otherwise, more of an organizer than figher Guiliman. He now has fought probably most primarchs of all of them ( Mortarion, Magnus, Alpharius and one more I think ) He dealt with Hexarchy. He put entire Crusade up. He met directly with Emperor. He learned a lot from Custodes. Also he had benefit of time to get adjusted.
the way you describe Guilliman as a multi-tasker is spot-on, immediately making me imagine him as a Starcraft 2 player with 400+ APM (actions per minute) 🤣🤣🤣
I’ve always thought it would be cool if they ever have the emperor come back terra is taken over abaddon or some other grave threat walks up to the throne and kills the emperor then a rushing force turns into an explosion as he’s revived reanimated and fully healed banishing any daemons on terra and destroying the traitor
Guilliman: "Blond playboy"
Lion el Johnson: "Blond playboy"
Do more of this content! The overproduced music and voice is a bit much sometimes. Just you sat back talking to the camera, I could listen to this for hours!