Great video. In my opinion, Super Mario Odyssey shouldn't be considered better than Banjo-Kazooie in terms of collectathon games and is a bit overrated, the game has way too much moons and has an unbalanced difficulty (the boss are not that original and dying in this game is kind of hard), the main goal seems more like a secondary quest unlike the other Mario games even if it's the exact same objective, this is due to the ridiculously high amount of filler moons to collect, so it feels like there is no difference between collecting these moons and collecting the purple coins or collecting the green stars of Mario 3D World, it is even comparable with collecting the BOTW koroks, but it's not the main quest of the game so the impact is far less important. As amazing as collectathon games can get, they can also get very boring if they are not well designed, in Mario Odyssey, it makes the game unpleasant and boring to finish at 100% (obviously, in terms of main objective, obtaining a moon with a simple ground pound in the middle of nowhere is not that satisfying). They could have fixed this by decreasing the high amount of moons and making each one of them more complexe, more satisfying and more valuable to collect but it would have required a lot more of game design and a lot more time of developpement. They managed to save a lot of time by exaggerating the amount of moons and almost succeeded at hiding this flaw with the best gameplay i've seen in a platformer, but after finishing the game at 100% two times, i can say that unlike the other Mario games, i have no desire to restart the adventure anytime soon even if the last time i played was last year, which is the first time I've felt this with a Mario game... I am stil trying to understand why this game is rated that high.
Any chance you can make those spreadsheets and graphs available for download? I'm a game dev specialising on Platformer mechanics and VR mechanics (and I worked on Assassin's Creed VR Nexus :D), with an aim to bring all of the things that make up these types of games together. I'm always looking at as much info on perfecting these games as I can so either way thanks for the video.
Banjo-Tooie is actually much better than I thought it was. The interconnected world puzzles are very satisfying to complete. The worlds don't feel nearly as barren as in Yooka-Laylee. I always thought the original was the better game, but now I'm torn. They're both good for very different reasons imo.
Thanks man! I appreciate it! I am working on some other things and very long projects but I hope I can keep making things of a similar quality in the future!
@@OrangeJuiceJaz the quality is there man just stay consistent and you’ll be in everyone’s algorithm before ya know it! I really wish we’d see a true resurgence of renderware collocations tho. Even to this day I’m 23 and I’ll go back and play them. And it’s not all nostalgia because I never played banjo kazooie as a kid but I still loved it when I first played it a few years ago. There’s definitely a market for it!
Heyo, I have decided to be your 1,000th subscriber, been watch your videos after watching the Laytons mystery journey a while ago, came back and watched your other videos and you make some pretty cool stuff :P
Cool genre definition. The qualifications that I landed on for what makes a Collectathon are: - Players are required to obtain collectables in order to progress, this has to be the main form of progression. - Collectables have a fixed amount which means you can collect them all, currency do not so you can't. So stuff like coins in Odyssey don't count since they are currency, not collectables. - They can't all be required and for the most part players should be able to choose which collectables they collect and which ones they don't. These aren't cut and dry, for example Odyssey technically has unlimited Moons since you can buy them but that's only late game and you can still keep track of what you have/haven't collected so I let it slide. The reason I want it to be strictly tied to progression is that I think it should be able to be applied to games that aren't 3D Platformers, heck even Platformers, and I think systems like these allows it to be used alongside other genres it normally wouldn't, like puzzle games. Examples of non 3D Platformers that'd fit into this definition are: Rayman Origins/Legends, Splasher, Battleblock Theater, Pizza Tower and Fez. Another example is a game not out yet, Akurra. For Battleblock Theater the collectathon element is tied to single levels as apposed to the game overall, so in order to finish a level you need a certain amount of collectables, Mario Odyssey also does this too. Anyway nice video, it's very interesting to see this kind of analysis on these kinds of games. Personally I'm more privy to Jak, Spyro 1/2 and Banjo 1, though I like the others I've played in the list. Personally the amount of moves don't bother me too much as long as the movement is fun to control and fluid, I'm also drawn to a game's core movement and tend to not like alternative gameplay types as much, especially if they're noticeably worse than the core gameplay. Also looking at the graphs it seems I prefer games with less major and more minor collectables, and I think that makes sense since the minor collectables would be the constant cheap dopamine hits and the major ones being more sparse would make them feel more impactful, so more satisfying. This is probably why Odyssey was rather disappointing for me since the major collectables begin so common might have made them feel as important as minor collectables in some of the other games in this list. Great video, it was really informative and very interesting. Hats off to you for putting in all the work to compile all this data. My opinion on the best? Jak and Daxter is my favorite but if I had to say which is the *best* Collectathon I'd have to say Spyro personally.
I don't agree with your definition of a 3D Platformer Collect-a-thon. A game that has collection of anything with it being the main premise or one of the biggest game mechanics in the game is something I'd consider to be a collect-a-thon. A marathon of collection, but not just a marathon to be in said genre. For 3D Platformers, that's simply any game with the main, or one of the main, game mechanics being platforming in a 3D environment. So, a 3D Platformer Collect-a-thon is a game that uses the game mechanics of collection and platforming in a 3D environment as it's main gimmick. At least, that's how I look at it. I've been researching the genre for many years now as well as making my own on Roblox called PB & Jay. Modernization, the tech behind every game I can get my hands on, etc. You don't want to pack your game with collectible or platforming sections that are too hard/challenging. You also don't want too little collectibles or platforming as that makes the game feel empty. It's better to have more to collect though imo. There are many game design and level design challenges. I'd say you shouldn't go Sonic Frontiers level of open-world, but you also don't want to go the Crash Bandicoot route of linear level design. You need that balance of linear and open-world to make it feel, nice? I can't remember who said this, but it's great: "Level design brings context to the movement" If you have a double jump, which is slightly a gimmicky mechanic, then the player should have to use it somewhere. Tutorials are also another topic. Don't force them, make them embedded into the game and not big blocks of text. @HeavyEyed @snomangaming @JonasTyroller and more have contributed to my knowledge on the subject of 3D Platformer Collect-a-thons and game design in general. This was a great video that dove into some interesting things. Thanks for making it. :)
Every time somebody writes off battle for Bikini Bottom I take them a little less seriously. It's one of the best games in the genre. It's possibly the best game of its generation in the genre.
This video was incredibly helpful. I've been working on my own indie 3D collectathon platformer and I was looking for something like this!! Subscribed. Fantastic work.
Thank you very much! I have another video that is data heavy in the works, it is just a shame that collecting that data is pretty painstakingly slow! Good luck with your game!
Really underrated video. It was really neat seeing so many things broken down and picked apart to see what forms a truly great collectathon platformer.
Thanks appreciate it! I have a few other video ideas like this planned now that Diceheart is released! Easiest Mario game Zelda Dungeons by Data RPGs by Player engagement etc
I probably do consider it a 3D Collectathon platformer. I haven't played it however and looked it up on UA-cam quite a bit. I believe it didn't satisfy one of my rules, but I can't remember!
@@OrangeJuiceJaz There's plenty of games that satisfy all of your rules but that you didn't talk about. Stuart Little 2 for the PS1, Ty the Tasmanian Tiger, Toy Story 2, Duck Dodgers, Bugs Bunny Lost in Time, Gex 2 and 3 and worse of all Rocket Robot on Wheels which is colectathon to a tee.
@@DanielMazahreh I love Zelda to death. But I think Majora is one of the weaker ones. Fantastic story and atmosphere, don't get me wrong but the dungeon design really irks me a lot. (Still a 9/10 game). Though I haven't played Tooie in a while and really just want it to come to the switch.
Okay am I the only person that loved Yooka-Laylee this is insane to me
I loved the hell out of it, I don’t get the hate either :(
I mean yeah probably - it was way too inconsistent
Unfortunately it will forever be compared to Banjo Kazooie and it fails to meet the hopes of replicating the original magic
Great video.
In my opinion, Super Mario Odyssey shouldn't be considered better than Banjo-Kazooie in terms of collectathon games and is a bit overrated, the game has way too much moons and has an unbalanced difficulty (the boss are not that original and dying in this game is kind of hard), the main goal seems more like a secondary quest unlike the other Mario games even if it's the exact same objective, this is due to the ridiculously high amount of filler moons to collect, so it feels like there is no difference between collecting these moons and collecting the purple coins or collecting the green stars of Mario 3D World, it is even comparable with collecting the BOTW koroks, but it's not the main quest of the game so the impact is far less important. As amazing as collectathon games can get, they can also get very boring if they are not well designed, in Mario Odyssey, it makes the game unpleasant and boring to finish at 100% (obviously, in terms of main objective, obtaining a moon with a simple ground pound in the middle of nowhere is not that satisfying). They could have fixed this by decreasing the high amount of moons and making each one of them more complexe, more satisfying and more valuable to collect but it would have required a lot more of game design and a lot more time of developpement.
They managed to save a lot of time by exaggerating the amount of moons and almost succeeded at hiding this flaw with the best gameplay i've seen in a platformer, but after finishing the game at 100% two times, i can say that unlike the other Mario games, i have no desire to restart the adventure anytime soon even if the last time i played was last year, which is the first time I've felt this with a Mario game... I am stil trying to understand why this game is rated that high.
6:24 How could you embarrass me like this
Any chance you can make those spreadsheets and graphs available for download?
I'm a game dev specialising on Platformer mechanics and VR mechanics (and I worked on Assassin's Creed VR Nexus :D),
with an aim to bring all of the things that make up these types of games together.
I'm always looking at as much info on perfecting these games as I can so either way thanks for the video.
Absolutely, if you send an email to Jazthesandman@gmail.com I will see if I can dig out the data and send it to you!
Banjo-Tooie is actually much better than I thought it was. The interconnected world puzzles are very satisfying to complete. The worlds don't feel nearly as barren as in Yooka-Laylee. I always thought the original was the better game, but now I'm torn. They're both good for very different reasons imo.
You deserve a lot more views man, you clearly put a lot of time into this video. Just subbed!
Thanks man! I appreciate it!
I am working on some other things and very long projects but I hope I can keep making things of a similar quality in the future!
@@OrangeJuiceJaz the quality is there man just stay consistent and you’ll be in everyone’s algorithm before ya know it!
I really wish we’d see a true resurgence of renderware collocations tho. Even to this day I’m 23 and I’ll go back and play them. And it’s not all nostalgia because I never played banjo kazooie as a kid but I still loved it when I first played it a few years ago. There’s definitely a market for it!
this has been really helpful. i'm going to keep coming back to this video as reference ...trying to make a collectathon-ish inspired game
Same, sadly mine just imitates others, it's hard trying to make an original IP.
Heyo, I have decided to be your 1,000th subscriber, been watch your videos after watching the Laytons mystery journey a while ago, came back and watched your other videos and you make some pretty cool stuff :P
Oh Dang, thanks very much! I didn't even know that was coming up. I have another video on the way!
Cool genre definition.
The qualifications that I landed on for what makes a Collectathon are:
- Players are required to obtain collectables in order to progress, this has to be the main form of progression.
- Collectables have a fixed amount which means you can collect them all, currency do not so you can't. So stuff like coins in Odyssey don't count since they are currency, not collectables.
- They can't all be required and for the most part players should be able to choose which collectables they collect and which ones they don't.
These aren't cut and dry, for example Odyssey technically has unlimited Moons since you can buy them but that's only late game and you can still keep track of what you have/haven't collected so I let it slide.
The reason I want it to be strictly tied to progression is that I think it should be able to be applied to games that aren't 3D Platformers, heck even Platformers, and I think systems like these allows it to be used alongside other genres it normally wouldn't, like puzzle games.
Examples of non 3D Platformers that'd fit into this definition are: Rayman Origins/Legends, Splasher, Battleblock Theater, Pizza Tower and Fez. Another example is a game not out yet, Akurra.
For Battleblock Theater the collectathon element is tied to single levels as apposed to the game overall, so in order to finish a level you need a certain amount of collectables, Mario Odyssey also does this too.
Anyway nice video, it's very interesting to see this kind of analysis on these kinds of games.
Personally I'm more privy to Jak, Spyro 1/2 and Banjo 1, though I like the others I've played in the list. Personally the amount of moves don't bother me too much as long as the movement is fun to control and fluid, I'm also drawn to a game's core movement and tend to not like alternative gameplay types as much, especially if they're noticeably worse than the core gameplay.
Also looking at the graphs it seems I prefer games with less major and more minor collectables, and I think that makes sense since the minor collectables would be the constant cheap dopamine hits and the major ones being more sparse would make them feel more impactful, so more satisfying. This is probably why Odyssey was rather disappointing for me since the major collectables begin so common might have made them feel as important as minor collectables in some of the other games in this list.
Great video, it was really informative and very interesting. Hats off to you for putting in all the work to compile all this data.
My opinion on the best? Jak and Daxter is my favorite but if I had to say which is the *best* Collectathon I'd have to say Spyro personally.
Same for Spyro, the 💎 sound is music.
I don't agree with your definition of a 3D Platformer Collect-a-thon. A game that has collection of anything with it being the main premise or one of the biggest game mechanics in the game is something I'd consider to be a collect-a-thon. A marathon of collection, but not just a marathon to be in said genre. For 3D Platformers, that's simply any game with the main, or one of the main, game mechanics being platforming in a 3D environment. So, a 3D Platformer Collect-a-thon is a game that uses the game mechanics of collection and platforming in a 3D environment as it's main gimmick. At least, that's how I look at it. I've been researching the genre for many years now as well as making my own on Roblox called PB & Jay. Modernization, the tech behind every game I can get my hands on, etc. You don't want to pack your game with collectible or platforming sections that are too hard/challenging. You also don't want too little collectibles or platforming as that makes the game feel empty. It's better to have more to collect though imo. There are many game design and level design challenges. I'd say you shouldn't go Sonic Frontiers level of open-world, but you also don't want to go the Crash Bandicoot route of linear level design. You need that balance of linear and open-world to make it feel, nice? I can't remember who said this, but it's great: "Level design brings context to the movement" If you have a double jump, which is slightly a gimmicky mechanic, then the player should have to use it somewhere. Tutorials are also another topic. Don't force them, make them embedded into the game and not big blocks of text. @HeavyEyed @snomangaming @JonasTyroller and more have contributed to my knowledge on the subject of 3D Platformer Collect-a-thons and game design in general. This was a great video that dove into some interesting things. Thanks for making it. :)
Every time somebody writes off battle for Bikini Bottom I take them a little less seriously. It's one of the best games in the genre. It's possibly the best game of its generation in the genre.
There is a new 2D collectathon named Promenade ! It looks insane !
thanks for this video, subscribed
This video was incredibly helpful. I've been working on my own indie 3D collectathon platformer and I was looking for something like this!!
Subscribed. Fantastic work.
Thank you very much! I have another video that is data heavy in the works, it is just a shame that collecting that data is pretty painstakingly slow!
Good luck with your game!
Really underrated video. It was really neat seeing so many things broken down and picked apart to see what forms a truly great collectathon platformer.
Thanks appreciate it! I have a few other video ideas like this planned now that Diceheart is released!
Easiest Mario game
Zelda Dungeons by Data
RPGs by Player engagement etc
@@OrangeJuiceJaz Looking forward to them. Already subbed!
thank you for the science!!!
No Problem, I have a bunch of other ideas still in the works :)
What about a 2D collectifon
I think that’s just like Yoshi’s island, Donkey Kong Country series and Rayman Origins/Legends. Which are great though…
what do you consider ape escape?
I probably do consider it a 3D Collectathon platformer. I haven't played it however and looked it up on UA-cam quite a bit. I believe it didn't satisfy one of my rules, but I can't remember!
@@OrangeJuiceJaz There's plenty of games that satisfy all of your rules but that you didn't talk about. Stuart Little 2 for the PS1, Ty the Tasmanian Tiger, Toy Story 2, Duck Dodgers, Bugs Bunny Lost in Time, Gex 2 and 3 and worse of all Rocket Robot on Wheels which is colectathon to a tee.
Your data metrics are a load of nonsense, dude. Banjo-Tooie is a masterpiece.
fair enough, glad you enjoyed it. I liked it at the time, but nowhere near as much as Kazooie
@@OrangeJuiceJaz Like Majora’s Mask, Tooie’s appreciation is increased through replay value.
@@DanielMazahreh I love Zelda to death. But I think Majora is one of the weaker ones. Fantastic story and atmosphere, don't get me wrong but the dungeon design really irks me a lot. (Still a 9/10 game).
Though I haven't played Tooie in a while and really just want it to come to the switch.
@@OrangeJuiceJaz Majora has genius dungeon design. You’re just not skilled.
@@DanielMazahreh 🤷
Do you have a link to that first list you mentioned? I can't find it anywhere.
Fantastic video
Thanks my guy
This was absolutely brilliant!