Making the worlds larger is a mistake. If the game has a linear progression through the levels, like the 3D Sonic games, big maps are a plus. If it is meant for free roaming with collectibles and challenges, it needs to be smaller and mostly open, so players can memorize their layouts and get to know every nook and cranny. All the classics, like the ones in this video and others like the Tony Hawk series or Jet Set Radio, have relatively small maps. Banjo Kazooie gets vastly more praise than Tooie or Donkey Kong 64. It was apparent soon enough that just making things bigger wasn't the way forward. Collectibles have always been just a carrot on a stick, an incentive for the players to see everything that the designers took the time of adding the the maps instead of running straight to the objective. That's why they are a staple in games like the Assassin's Creed series. In those games, they encourage people to see all the vistas, monuments, details and shortcuts in the cities and look at more than the minimap. But if the maps are not interesting, if it all starts looking the same and running from one place to the next becomes boring, that is when collectibles become a chore. Because, by the themselves, they are nothing but meaningless, empty "progression". The game with the worst collectibles I played last year was the sequel to Mirror's Edge. Most collectibles in that game were not highlighting anything in particular or guiding you to interesting places. They were in plain walls and other boring locations and only served to break the flow of the game. You had to stop running, go a little to the side and wait for an animation, and this happened frequently while you were supposedly in a hurry during some story mission.
200% agree with the size. Yooka Laylee was interesting, but I put it down because it was overwhelmingly large, and then I found out that levels will change and sometimes you have to skip the level before 100% it
Love these points. Only thing i would emphasize is fluid motion and movement, especially if we can expect to see levels in 3D platformers getting bigger as time goes on.
3D platformers are my jam. What really needs to happen is some sort of software advancement that makes it easier for small independent developers to create 3D games. AAA studios don't seem 3D platformers as money makers and indie devs don't have the resources.
So then, HOW to modernize 3D platformers? Simply saying "make the camera better", "players shouldn't get lost" and "have memorable landmarks in your world" isn't exactly revolutionary, nor does it help. Sprinkled in are some bold (hype-fueled?) statements about what Yooka-Laylee "will do", which we now know it didn't...
I know this is old, but how can you criticize this video while also forgetting to mention this person *doesn't even think think Ratchet and Clank is a 3D platformer* ?.. Yeah this guy's video was, and still is, soo off. This comment is now also a sad glimpse into the past, from back when we thought Yooka Laylee was going to be *good.*
I would argue that collectathons are at most a subgenre of 3d platformers, definitely not synonymous with them, and that Mario 64 is not, in fact a collectathon. It was only the Rare games on N64 that were collectathons, going overboard with Donkey Kong 64 with an endless amount of tedious collecting to do. In Mario 64 you entered a level and had at most a small number of goals (stars) to achieve, often just one, that's certainly not a collectathon, cause the game involves completing tasks, not mindlessly collecting things.
Great work mate. I'm excited for this resurgence and I hope we'll see more innovation in the coming years, instead of dropping dead again, like you mentioned. Also, chillest patreon launch ever lol
Nah this video is actually really bad and deeply misinforming. It completely ignores the term "collectathon", used to describe 3D games where you collect things to unlock new areas, and instead equates "3D platformer" with it. It takes 10 minutes to say very little and the point about camera is where the misinformation comes in. Player-controlled camera is only a significant issue in an open platformer with large levels , which collectathons tend to be. It's much, much easier to rig the camera in a linear game and ensure that the camera angle is as perfect as possible for the player to make a jump or dodge an enemy attack - which is why the camera in Crash Bandicoot aged much better than the camera in another game by Crash co-creator Dave Siller, Capcom's Maximo. Mind you I love Maximo to bits and it's a great game everyone into hard and genuinely old school-style action games should play, but the levels being more open and less tube-like instantly created an issue that the devs of Crash did not have to deal with.
Dead Stock Paradise I think you're rather misinformed yourself. Most assume when talking of the 3D platformer is the open world or at least open ended nature of said game. Games like Spyro, SM65, Banjo Kazooie, Jak and Daxter etc. A game can indeed still be a 3D platformer without all the collectible items. When talking about a game like crash bandicoot, few games of the AAA caliber are made like that. It's more similar to a 2.5D platformer, like Klonoa 1 and 2. (If you haven't heard of em, check it out, its gr8) Anyways most think of such open ended games as true 3D platformers not the linear ones.
I've never in my life seen someone equate "3D platformer" to "collectathon" before this video; they simply use the term "collectathon". Crash being more linear does not make it practically 2.5D, it plays very very differently from Klonoa (and also Donkey Kong Country). It once again goes back to the camera; Klonoa is very zoomed-out so there's a lot of making big jumps (using inflated enemies & the floating ability to go higher & further) & going between radically different heights of the level, which Crash only really comes vaguely close to in the 2D segments because the fixed camera would make it hard in the 3D ones. I can't help but wonder if you played Klonoa yourself at all if you actually think the gameplay is like that of Crash. Rayman 2 is another 3D platformer that was huge in its time and while it has collection elements it's not nearly as big of a focus as the typical 'collectathon' & the game's world is structured very differently. Ratchet & Clank games are also popular and they're categorized as "platform shooters". I've never played them but from what I've read & seen I don't think the Sly Cooper games are collectathons?
I really hope this resurgence takes off. There hasn't been a lot of variety in games recently, and I think a lot of people have acknowledged that (just look at how quickly they reached their Kickstarter goalfor Yooka Laylee). Here's to hoping the collectathon genre makes its come back and is here to stay!
If it's here to stay in a sometimes but very solid titles when it is, like every year one or two SUPER SICK collectathon titles come out I'll be so fucking happy.
mario odyssey yooka laylee sonic forces snake pass ahead in time crash bandicoot n.sane trilogy 2017 is the year of the resurgance of 3D platformers!!!
i even wasn't a big fan of the galaxy games. which is why im glad nintendo acknowledged how 64/sunshine were vastly different in design, and that they were going more in line with those games with odyssey.
Your comments about players getting lost in big empty spaces is exactly what I didn't like about yooka laylee. I honestly think the expandable worlds was that game's undoing. Great vid tho! All of this is spot on
History is repeating itself! Just look at this 20 year comparison! 1996-1998: Super Mario 64 The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Pokemon Red & Blue Sonic Adventure Banjo-Kazooie GoldenEye 007 Castlevania: Symphony of The Night 2016-2018: Super Mario Odyssey The Legend of Zelda: Breath of The Wild Pokemon Sun & Moon Sonic Forces Yooka-Laylee Overwatch Bloodstained: Ritual of The Night
Yea it refined it tho, added more characters and what not. It plays pretty differently as Overwatch traes more tema coordination. I think Goldeneye 007 and Overwatch are compared for blowing up in the FPS genre in their respective genres.
Gg Ez I guess, but I think Doom would fit in there more than overwatch. It manages to blend modern and classic fps gameplay. Also because they're both old fps franchises.
The fact you said Ratchet and Clank isn't a 3D platformer just seems.. insane. Platforming is part of it's core elements. Man, I always thought the Action Platformer subgenre was under-appreciated, but now apparently it isn't even a 3d platformer... ..Like, by what you're saying, I'm guessing Jak and Daxter: The Precursor Legacy is a 3D platformer, but none of it's sequels? It just doesn't add up. I understand drawing the lines at any game that just features platforming, but Ratchet and Clank had a full moveset that is familiar to any 3D platformer fans - Double Jumps, gliding, it's own take on a dodge roll-type move. THAT'S what should differentiate 3D platformers from other games that just happen to feature a jump button. Not.. whatever you're using to classify Ratchet as "Not a 3D Platformer".
I find the colectathon definition so limiting, by that definition alone you’re just disregarding some of the best games in the genre, like ratchet and clank, sky cooper, sonic adventure 1 and 2 (although you could argue maybe those two aren’t as fondly remembered but they’re still pretty fun)
For as much crap as we all seem to throw at Super Mario Sunshine most of the time, I firmly believe it is the gold standard for 3D platformer control schemes. The way it handled camera controls was a natural progression from Mario 64. If there's nothing else one can take away from Sunshine as opposed to its lesser popular ideas, I think most can agree it had its controls down-pat and I for one couldn't be happier to see Super Mario Odyssey implementing one of Sunshine's greatest strengths; dem buttery controls yo, mmm. Great video, really made me think.
I love the video, especially when I hear the beast of a soundtrack that is Oxenfree in the background. Gonna have to go binge listen to it for hours again now. Thanks
I have to agree. It captures the theme and feel of the game perfectly. Definitely one of the best games I've played in a long time, with an amazing soundtrack to boot.
2:02 - "...what I mean by 3D Platformer is a game that requires progression through collecting a certain number of specific items to unlock new pathways in an explorable 3D world" How could you get the definition of '3D Platformer' so wrong? A 3D Platformer is a game in which the primary gameplay is that of a character traversing a series of platforms in a 3D space. That is it! How could you fuck this up? Collecting shit is not what defines a platformer, PLATFORMING is what defines a platformer. Is there a reason for this blinkered, N64 centric view of the genre? Are you unaware of story driven 3D platformers, liner 3D platformers, etc. Did you really just mean to make a video about Collect-a-thons and misused the term 3D Platformer, or are you just a raging Nintendo fanboy (like so many others on the internet). I found this video infuriating as I knew that it would be another N64 fanboy waxing nostalgic about the good old days as if there wasn't a massive library of 3D platformers on the PS2 too huge to mention, now admittedly the genre fell off last generation, but there where a few good 3D platformers and a few less than good; (Sly 4: Thieves In Time, Alice: Madness Returns, Toy Story 3, Ratchet & Crank: A Crack In Time, Pacman & The Ghostly Adventures, Monsters vs. Aliens, The Simpsons Game, Sonic Generations), as well as HD remakes of the entire Sly Cooper, Ratchet & Clank, and Jak & Daxter series. The genre hardly died off; if anything it evolved. On the PS4 games like InFamous: Second Son take elements from 3D platformers, hack n slash, open world sandboxes, and RPGs and throw them all in together; while retro revivals are commonplace now. Now, I'm not saying platformers didn't have a slump both in prominence and in quality. (Let's face it, Monsters vs. Aliens isn't competing with Psychonauts, Vexx, or any of the big franchises out there). What I am saying is this video was massively biased towards Nintendo and it was painfully obvious that you're only really familiar with one side of gaming history.
I'm looking forward to seeing what happens from this point on, could be interesting. I need to look into a Hat in Time, I'd be more on that if it gets a physical release on consoles though :)
He didn't really give much of an answer because there isn't really one to give from what we already know; better fluid camera, good character control and worlds shouldn't be massive empty open worlds. Aside from that you can add more unique move sets to the character like in Mario Odyssey or this indie game right here: ua-cam.com/video/melravOQGJU/v-deo.html
Don't forget Super Mario Odyssey. So this year we will basically get an old platformer in an innovative and fresh world, the team of an old platformer designing a whole new universe, and the first widely anticipated indie 3D platformer. Feels like the best year for this genre we could hope for.
As someone who grew up with 3D platformers, I'm so ready for more. However, I could forgive anyone older or younger than me for not caring as much. A lot of my love is based in nostalgia. One of my favorite memories of these games was playing crash 3 with friends and watching them fail repeatedly on some tightly timed jumping puzzle, and being the only one who was able to beat the level. A hard 3D platformer is a good 3D platformer.
Plot twist from 5 years from the video Yooka laylee floped but mario odyssey renewed the formula, a new crash was released and it is pretty great, and a lot of indie 3d plataformers started to merge
Can you give a list of all the different games you feature in this episode. I'd like to be able to check some of them out but without names for them, it's hard to know what I'm looking for.
An issue I have with this video is how you define 3D platformer. The definition you used is cutting out series like Crash, Sly, and Ratchet from the discussion, even though those are examples of the 3D platformer as much as Mario and Banjo, and could be good models to follow for smaller teams so that the development costs aren't as high to get such a resurgence going.
There are three more 3D platformers (that I can think of) coming out this year. Granted, Crash Bandicoot N-sane Trilogy is a collection of remasters, and Project Sonic 2017 will likely be the same stuff we got in Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations, but Super Mario Odyssey is what I think will show us the future of 3D platformers.
Yeah! I wanted to talk about those but not having them confirmed as to exactly what they are / being remasters I didn't think it'd be a good idea to speculate but fuck Odyssey looks so hype.
I think you could talk about Journey and the things it did right, just like the camera movement and social interaction as new "mechanic" in the genre, it might not be a full collectathon but it brough some interesting ideas to the 3D Platformer's table. Great video anyway. ^_^
No way, I don't hate you, I really like and appreciate your content. xd You don't need to play the game actually, watch John Nesky's talk at GDC about camera mistakes and how they improved it on Journey, it's really interesting and useful for this genre. :D
Watching this video after YookaLaylee came out makes the immense hope given towards it, the passing of the baton in a way, kinda bittersweet. So many people put a big weight on it, and I believe that it didn't meet expectations as a whole. Many people love the game, but a large portion of the community also dislikes it to some degree. Even if you think the game was successful in some way or if you enjoyed it, I don't believe that it will be able to be the resurgence of the genre.
Don't forget Super Mario Odyssey! I would bet it is a direct result of the Kickstarter success of A Hat in Time and Yooka-Laylee. Also, though Hat has bright and colorful levels, it looks like these will be contrasted by darker, creepier themes like Mafia, murder, and selling your soul to a shadow-ghost.
I hope this brings back the platformers period. The industry has too many open-world games and FPS these days. I love open worlds, but even I have my limits on what game worlds to explore.
I don't think 3D platformers will do much better the 2nd time around unless they broaden their horizons a little bit. I don't mean that they incorporate more genres like Ratchet & Clank or the latter Jak games, but there should be something other than a Collect-o-thon mascot platformer that people strive for. For example, on the PS4 I've found absolute gems like Gravity Rush & Last Guardian, where the core gameplay is still all about traversing a space but they both have creative ways to do it along with running and jumping. Plus, little indie titles like Tiny & Big: Grampa's Leftovers, and A Story About My Uncle (though that one is First-Person) do wonders in providing the feel and nostalgia of those old games while still being fresh.
I don't get it. Why when people talk about platformers, they forget one of the most popular game series ever, a chart topper for pretty much the complete last 10 years? Assassin's Creed. It's open-world stealth combat platformer, and while it often lacks good level design, and is overall like a mishmash of every buzzword you could come up with in the 2000s at the time of its inception, i feel that platforming is a central trait of its gameplay experience, and its distinguishing trait against e.g. GTA which makes driving and shooting the predominant mechanics. And in turn it evolved from Prince of Persia games, which nobody remembers in this context. Somehow unless the characters are tiny and cute and round, it's not the same genre any more? And i get it if you never liked either of these series or are tired of Assassin's Creed's yearly mediocrity, it's just that they should be a part of this discussion. The genre you mourn has never left, it has morphed and stayed a top seller. Why is Tomb Raider never mentioned in this context either? If you're looking for a modernised platformer, here they are, you have missed them all along. In turn the titles you speak of don't necessarily have the goal to modernise anything in particular, but rather bring back the classic experience.
Good point about world size (Mad Max is a perfect example). "Open world" has become a curse word for me. I'd like to see at least an attempt to craft smaller, tighter worlds rich in detail without pandering to square-footage.
Shit dude this was great! You really hit the nail on the head with this video. Super stoked to have more people excited and hopeful for the future of 3D platformers!
I'm making a 3D platformer right now! I got the inspiration from Conker's Bad Fur Day and Banjo-Kazooie. So it will play like Banjo-Kazooie but have that funny and disturbing shit from Conker's Bad Fur Day. I hope it turns out good in the end. I am the only one working on it so far.
@Repo man It is on hold atm because I am learning more about Unreal Engine 4 and Blender. I want to make it as best as I can so I'm getting more experience first until I am confident to keep working on it.
3D platformers and collectathons are not one in the same, they just happened to overlap a lot. I mean, your own definition cuts out recent Mario games, which you alluded to, despite them being almost the exact same from a gameplay perspective. A 3D platformer is defined by the 3D platforming aspects, not the collecting aspects, which is just a progression/exploration system. So yeah, I don't know. That weird definition aside, I think that a lot of games that are 3D platformers at their heart aren't recognized for it because they perform differently. For instance, the Prince of Persia Sands of Time trilogy was a 3D platformer. But combat was more complex, the difficulty was harder, the methods of platforming were different, and the tone was a lot different than the mascot driven games that are so heavily associated with 3D platformers. Platforming elements have also been carried over into a ton of games. Uncharted, inFamous, Assassin's Creed, to name a couple. But they are never, or only very rarely, used as the primary challenge. That is, you are almost never asked to tightly platform through obstacles or environments despite shared mechanics from their predecessors, ie Crash/Jak, Sly Cooper, Prince of Persia.
The 3D platformer fell out of favor too early for the genre to jump the shark. However, this meant that the genre never really got a shot to evolve. It's why I've always been a fan of A Hat in Time, since it was the first project of this era to openly cite collect-a-thons as an influence. But I think the genre is safe from the saturation of the 2D platformer, due to higher budgets and a more intricate design philosophy. It's too complex for every single indie dev to go for, so I think only experienced devs will consider the challenge worth investing. Still, this'll depend on the popularity of Yooka-Laylee, FreezeME, and A Hat in Time, because people will go where the money goes, and the money will go where the gamers want it to go. Great video, guy.
Yeah it was such a weirdly super popular then just gone genre, but left such a big impression on so many like myself. I have heard mixed things about FreezeME, have you played it?
Not yet, but I'd like to. This genre is a big part of my gaming upbringing too, so I want to see how devs who grew up with these games manage to put their own spin on it. FreezeME seems interesting to me.
Interesting to go back to this video after Yooka Laylee's launch. A lot of notices about nostalgia and the needs to bring something new. Some people also mention Snake Pass as a recent 3D platformer, does it fit your description with its weird control scheme or does the more standard levels separation put it in the "not-sandbox" category? Now waiting for A Hat in Time (and probably Mario Odyssey) to see what happens next!
Snake Pass is an interesting case, not just because of the unique mechanics, but because of the progression system. The levels have a set goal, but in order to activate it you have to explore the level and find 3 keys. In that respect, I would call it a hybrid, but in terms of level design it has more in common with collectathon style platformers, the levels are more open ended and exploration based. One thing I do think it gets right though is that it's probably the most challenging open world platformers I've played. Most collectathons tend to be on the easy side because open world level design tends to be more forgiving and less obstacle based. But because of the way Noodle controls navigating in and of itself is a challenge so the kind of jumps that a regular platformer might be able to make easily are more difficult to pull off with Noodle. Not sure if this can really translate into other platformers because of how much it hinges on Noodle being a snake, but if other platformers can find some way to draw from Snake Pass collectathons would definitely be better off.
Platformers and collectathons need to be treated as separate genres, or else the genre(s) may fail, and fade away again. This is a topic I've been thinking about a lot. I strongly believe that these two genres are different. Collectathons have platforming, but I want to explain why I think they are different. Platformers, in my eyes, are games like Sonic (2D and 3D), The Mario games (3D too, more on that later), Shantae, Rayman (all of them), Crash Trilogy, The DKC Trilogy, and most recently, A Hat in Time. Collectathons are games like Banjo, DK64, Conker's Bad Fur Day, and Psyhonauts. The former focus more on getting through stages. Sure, you find stuff, but it's more about the journey, then the end. Even though you enter and explore worlds non-linearly in SM64, you are still essentially getting to the end of a stage. Instead of a flag, you get a star. There are two collectibles in SM64. Coins, and Stars (and I guess technically keys, but there's only 3 so..). This game begins to introduce elements that would become staples of the collectathon, but at its core, I still believe it is more about platforming through a "stage", then finding stuff. Rayman 2 is a straight up stage based platformer. It has cages, and Lums. Two collectibles. Cages are completely optional save for the obvious one at the end of each stage, and Lums can be mostly ignored, but you'll need a few to get through certain gates. Sonic? Get through stages FAST. Sonic has stuff you can find in all games, but it's still always (mostly) been about using your skills and abilities to navigate through stages. Collectathons came about after SM64. They function like platformers, but feel the need to "give us more to do" so they are often comprised of sprawling levels with several collectibles, on top of a main MacGuffin. You don't focus on getting through stages as much as you do on finding things within a stage to do to get a reward. I..never got into Banjo (Though from an outsider's eye, it still looks better than DK64 by a small margin). DK64 was fun when I was a kid, but looking back, it is such a slog. I played the Wii U version recently, and yeah, it just wore me down. Unlike the DCK games, where I go through levels, I'm hunting down a bajillion things, traversing the same area again, and again. Back to Mario though, 3D Mario has always kept a balance. Sunshine is about as collectathon as the series gets, but I love that game. Galaxy 1, and 2, and the 3D Land/ World games appeal more to what I personally like about platformers. I don't like the collectathon formula as much as regular platformers. I don't like how it replaced more traditional stage-based platformers when 3D became the norm. That's why I love Rayman 2 so much. It's a real, 3D platformer. It doesn't try to be anything else, and it's a great game because of it. It doesn't need a hub world. It didn't need a million things to find. The levels were fun, unique, and action packed. Collectathons ruined platforming, in some ways, but, I'll admit, there are still good collectathons. I still like the platforming segments in every game mentioned, I just wish there was more of it, cause that's thre best part for me. That's why I play these games. I don't want to find stuff. I want to play a game. Mario 64 is a great balance. Rayman 2 is a great platforming game. DK64, and from what I've seen, Banjo, just kinda take it to the extreme. You got 8-9 worlds in those games, so you'll be spending a lot of time there. SM64 had 15 main levels, with about 6-7 smaller areas. Rayman 2 has 19 unique stages, with about 15 different themes. And, a Hat in Time hits this balance pretty damn nicely too. It's like.. up there, it's a good game. If we want this genre as a whole to succeed in 2017+, we need to acknowledge the differences within that genre. It's okay to have different styles, but I feel like any 3D platformer is expected to be a collectathon, but they don't all need to be, and they surely shouldn't all be. This is important so that not everyone on the outside sees this genre as DK64s and Yooka-Laylees, in case they don't like that style.
So when did 2d platformers supposedly die out? I noticed the over saturation in recent years but I never remember a time with none. They've been around since the 70s.
3:46 and that's stupid, just because Open World games started to get more popular, doesn't mean 3D platformers needed to die as a result. I'm glad Mario keeps that alive
What annoys me about recent platformers like Yooka-Laylee is that they ignore the modernization efforts made in the '00s/early 2010s by Mario Galaxy and Mirrors Edge in favour of the clunky retro-style N64 gameplay.
Sly cooper, rayman, ratchet and clank, crash bandicoot, psychonauts, not only are these my favourite games of all time but apparently not 3d platformers according to your definition...
By your definition Jak II, Jak 3 and other games aren't 3D platformers but they are. 3D Action platformers, same with Ratczet & Clank. The first Jak and Daxter title is a traditional 3D platformer. You forgot to mention Snake Pass = One of a kind, Crash Bandicoot N'Sane Trilogy and Skylar Plux! More titles will hopefully be announced at E3
If you haven't already, check out *Unbox*. This is one of the big surprises for me last year. A really refreshing 3D platformer that didn't get the love it deserved. You could also say that Ubisoft's *Grow Home & Grow Up* also count as 3D platformers. Also, a little criticism for your video. You were repeating many of your points ("open world becoming stale", "let's see what these two platformers do" etc.) at several parts of your video. Also, you were mixing factual portions with our opinionated parts. All I want to say that you should work on your script structuring more.
I'll have to check out Unbox, I must have missed it when I was looking for recent platformers. Writing is easily my weakest point so I appreciate any feedback, gonna take that into consideration, thank you!
The Pagies mechanic looks a bit different, hopefully it turns out well-realized and not disappointing. I'm definitely hoping 3D platformers/collectathons make a resurgence; while some games (I'm looking at you, Ubisoft) have done this, they just don't have the charm that these sort of games have and it isn't compelling. Between Yooka-Laylee and A Hat in Time, it looks like there's some good blood being injected into the genre. Hopefully the Crash Bandicoot remaster is done well, that might spur some renewed interest as well. Great video, man.
God I am so scared that crash remaster isn't gonna be great, I really hope it is but the artsyle for me is kinda gross and it looks slow, here's to hoping I'm very wrong tho.
As a fan of the genre, I never really realized how big role collectibles play in 3D platformers, but you're right, I can't think of a (pretty much) sole platfomer without them
Honestly not sure I agree with the strict definition leaving Ratchet and Clank out. Though I suppose that makes it an "Action Platformer". Which is honestly sad because while the 3d puzzle platformer style came back, with things like mario odyssey, action platformers are dead in the water.
Found this looking for videos about Gex jk, hadn't heard of ahead in time though, can't find anything about it, got a link somewhere? Also, thoughts on Psychonauts 2? The first one did feel like a 3D collectathon, didn't it?
+Calamack I made this video when no one really knew if it'd be a collectathon then or not, if I waited a couple weeks I could have talked about it haha
Im late for that but i still wanna ask Do you consider Sonic Adventure 1 a 3D Platformer ? It features progression from A to B instead of being a collectathon
His definition wasn't that great - he's talking about collect-a-thons. Sonic Adventure is definitely a 3D platformer. Basically 3D platformers are games with a focus on fully-controlled (so Uncharted doesn't count) jumping from platform to platform in 3D.
I fail to see a need to really "modernize" the genre aside from little things like camera controls (but even then, I thought Sunshine's camera was perfect). The only thing they should really be concerned about is focusing on the platforming and exploration and not having tons of mini games and filler crap. Beyond that, the formula itself is perfectly fine, no need to fix what isn't broken. And it's not like linear platformers have really modernized either. Look at a lot of Nintendo's recent platformers, they've all played basically the same and don't really differ much from their classic formulas aside from having shinier graphics. So sick of this double standard between linear and collectathon platformers. 3D World and Tropical Freeze do nothing to push the genre forward and they get 10/10s. But when Yooka Laylee does nothing to push the genre forward all of the critics blast the game and give it 6/10s.
I mean that's actually the case believe it or not at the start of most format wars. It's just that eventually people find the best standard and then companies are forced to move to it to make a profit. I actually do find it a little odd how eventually each video format was narrowed down to just VHS, DVD, or Blu-Ray. You would think there would still be competition between companies for a while like the consoles on what movies get released where.
somehow the N64 games are the most pleasing to the eye! The newer games have too much details, so the overal composition is bad, and the colors and shapes are mangled.
I would say that "coin collecting" is what ruined platforming games for me. Eventually I grew out of wanting to follow trails of spinning coins, I'm much more interested in games that move like Warframe, Tomb Raider, or Assassins Creed now. Open worlds that you can acrobat your way through. I want there to be a reason there is a trail of coins to follow besides the act of collecting a trail of coins, I guess, and I would argue against limiting the genre to only games that focus on that.
Don't listen to his definition. He is describing Collectathons, not 3D platformers. A platformer is any game you can jump in, and Uncharted, Assassin's Creed and Tomb Raider are listed as 3D platformers on wikipedia.
@@Treetops27 1) Uncharted and Assasin's Creed aren't platformers even according to Wikipedia (inFamous however is a fantastic platformer) 2) Your definition excludes games like Snake Pass and Super Monkey Ball whilst including games like Overwatch and Ocarina of Time
Actually, I haven't played them until recently, either. I bought a used PS3 a year ago and picked up the Jak, Ratchet, and Sly trilogies to play them all for the first time. With the exception of Jak II and maybe III if it continues this way, it's been a blast.
While I do agree with most of what you say in this video, I really have to question why you limit your discussion to only collectathons, and why you use the term "3D Platformer" to refer to collectathons even though you acknowledge that the term collectathon exists and is more specific to what you are talking about. Its a lot like if you were to make a video on 2D Platformers and only discuss Mega Man clones, and insist that the term "2D platformer" only refers to those, or if you were to insist that "FPS" only applies to fast-paced singleplayer shooters like DOOM and that competitive focused FPSes like CSGO don't count.
3D platformers have never been a thriving sub-genre of quality, have they? People all just remember a handful of great ones, and then the rest depends on how low your standards are for copycats. So, if there aren't many 3D platformers after Yooka Laylee and A Hat In Time come out, it wouldn't be surprising. People and critics have higher expectations now. If collectathon 3D platformers want to stay relevant, they'll have to become modernised like having compelling storytelling or have innovation in gameplay or systems. If not, they'll just stay in memories.
thought this said monetising 3d platformers smh...
holy fuck your new username
forgot about that
i have a sleeptalk YT account that i don't use
Making the worlds larger is a mistake. If the game has a linear progression through the levels, like the 3D Sonic games, big maps are a plus. If it is meant for free roaming with collectibles and challenges, it needs to be smaller and mostly open, so players can memorize their layouts and get to know every nook and cranny. All the classics, like the ones in this video and others like the Tony Hawk series or Jet Set Radio, have relatively small maps. Banjo Kazooie gets vastly more praise than Tooie or Donkey Kong 64. It was apparent soon enough that just making things bigger wasn't the way forward.
Collectibles have always been just a carrot on a stick, an incentive for the players to see everything that the designers took the time of adding the the maps instead of running straight to the objective. That's why they are a staple in games like the Assassin's Creed series. In those games, they encourage people to see all the vistas, monuments, details and shortcuts in the cities and look at more than the minimap. But if the maps are not interesting, if it all starts looking the same and running from one place to the next becomes boring, that is when collectibles become a chore. Because, by the themselves, they are nothing but meaningless, empty "progression".
The game with the worst collectibles I played last year was the sequel to Mirror's Edge. Most collectibles in that game were not highlighting anything in particular or guiding you to interesting places. They were in plain walls and other boring locations and only served to break the flow of the game. You had to stop running, go a little to the side and wait for an animation, and this happened frequently while you were supposedly in a hurry during some story mission.
200% agree with the size. Yooka Laylee was interesting, but I put it down because it was overwhelmingly large, and then I found out that levels will change and sometimes you have to skip the level before 100% it
Love these points. Only thing i would emphasize is fluid motion and movement, especially if we can expect to see levels in 3D platformers getting bigger as time goes on.
Yeah! Def a good point, I guess I attributed all those issues to the camera but thinking about it you're totally right
Not all 3D platformers are collectathons
True.
I always liked when 3d platformers incorporated non-platforming themes, like Ratchet's weapons and Sly's stealth.
3D platformers are my jam. What really needs to happen is some sort of software advancement that makes it easier for small independent developers to create 3D games. AAA studios don't seem 3D platformers as money makers and indie devs don't have the resources.
So then, HOW to modernize 3D platformers? Simply saying "make the camera better", "players shouldn't get lost" and "have memorable landmarks in your world" isn't exactly revolutionary, nor does it help. Sprinkled in are some bold (hype-fueled?) statements about what Yooka-Laylee "will do", which we now know it didn't...
I know this is old, but how can you criticize this video while also forgetting to mention this person *doesn't even think think Ratchet and Clank is a 3D platformer* ?..
Yeah this guy's video was, and still is, soo off.
This comment is now also a sad glimpse into the past, from back when we thought Yooka Laylee was going to be *good.*
I would argue that collectathons are at most a subgenre of 3d platformers, definitely not synonymous with them, and that Mario 64 is not, in fact a collectathon. It was only the Rare games on N64 that were collectathons, going overboard with Donkey Kong 64 with an endless amount of tedious collecting to do. In Mario 64 you entered a level and had at most a small number of goals (stars) to achieve, often just one, that's certainly not a collectathon, cause the game involves completing tasks, not mindlessly collecting things.
dk64 is great idiot
You tweet about hardcore and then throw some of the most chill tracks I've ever heard. I love it.
There is a new awesome 2D collectathon named Promenade that came out !
Great work mate. I'm excited for this resurgence and I hope we'll see more innovation in the coming years, instead of dropping dead again, like you mentioned.
Also, chillest patreon launch ever lol
Having the chillest of something is a pretty high honor coming from you, Sno.
Nah this video is actually really bad and deeply misinforming. It completely ignores the term "collectathon", used to describe 3D games where you collect things to unlock new areas, and instead equates "3D platformer" with it. It takes 10 minutes to say very little and the point about camera is where the misinformation comes in. Player-controlled camera is only a significant issue in an open platformer with large levels , which collectathons tend to be. It's much, much easier to rig the camera in a linear game and ensure that the camera angle is as perfect as possible for the player to make a jump or dodge an enemy attack - which is why the camera in Crash Bandicoot aged much better than the camera in another game by Crash co-creator Dave Siller, Capcom's Maximo.
Mind you I love Maximo to bits and it's a great game everyone into hard and genuinely old school-style action games should play, but the levels being more open and less tube-like instantly created an issue that the devs of Crash did not have to deal with.
Dead Stock Paradise I think you're rather misinformed yourself. Most assume when talking of the 3D platformer is the open world or at least open ended nature of said game. Games like Spyro, SM65, Banjo Kazooie, Jak and Daxter etc. A game can indeed still be a 3D platformer without all the collectible items. When talking about a game like crash bandicoot, few games of the AAA caliber are made like that. It's more similar to a 2.5D platformer, like Klonoa 1 and 2. (If you haven't heard of em, check it out, its gr8) Anyways most think of such open ended games as true 3D platformers not the linear ones.
Dead Stock Paradise Let's also have a bit of a reality check, the Crash series was really just a Cash-in on Donkey Kong country in 3D. :\
I've never in my life seen someone equate "3D platformer" to "collectathon" before this video; they simply use the term "collectathon". Crash being more linear does not make it practically 2.5D, it plays very very differently from Klonoa (and also Donkey Kong Country). It once again goes back to the camera; Klonoa is very zoomed-out so there's a lot of making big jumps (using inflated enemies & the floating ability to go higher & further) & going between radically different heights of the level, which Crash only really comes vaguely close to in the 2D segments because the fixed camera would make it hard in the 3D ones. I can't help but wonder if you played Klonoa yourself at all if you actually think the gameplay is like that of Crash.
Rayman 2 is another 3D platformer that was huge in its time and while it has collection elements it's not nearly as big of a focus as the typical 'collectathon' & the game's world is structured very differently.
Ratchet & Clank games are also popular and they're categorized as "platform shooters".
I've never played them but from what I've read & seen I don't think the Sly Cooper games are collectathons?
I really hope this resurgence takes off. There hasn't been a lot of variety in games recently, and I think a lot of people have acknowledged that (just look at how quickly they reached their Kickstarter goalfor Yooka Laylee). Here's to hoping the collectathon genre makes its come back and is here to stay!
If it's here to stay in a sometimes but very solid titles when it is, like every year one or two SUPER SICK collectathon titles come out I'll be so fucking happy.
mario odyssey
yooka laylee
sonic forces
snake pass
ahead in time
crash bandicoot n.sane trilogy
2017 is the year of the resurgance of 3D platformers!!!
Too bad yooka sucked ass.
Definitely an interesting video, great work.
Thank you!
Never overlook rayman origins and legends
Ratchet & Clank not a 3D platformer? Not even the 1st title?
He was talking about the newest game.
David Hernandez It still has platforming.
He is talking about collectthons
tjlnintendo Well then he should've titled this video collectathons.
This was a good video! I really hope we get some awesome 3D platformers soon!
Three years later..
apparently mario odyssey is also going back to this formula, so there's also that.
I really hope so, after 3D Land / World being just alright Nintendo needs a good return to form.
i even wasn't a big fan of the galaxy games. which is why im glad nintendo acknowledged how 64/sunshine were vastly different in design, and that they were going more in line with those games with odyssey.
Your comments about players getting lost in big empty spaces is exactly what I didn't like about yooka laylee. I honestly think the expandable worlds was that game's undoing.
Great vid tho! All of this is spot on
History is repeating itself! Just look at this 20 year comparison!
1996-1998:
Super Mario 64
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Pokemon Red & Blue
Sonic Adventure
Banjo-Kazooie
GoldenEye 007
Castlevania: Symphony of The Night
2016-2018:
Super Mario Odyssey
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of The Wild
Pokemon Sun & Moon
Sonic Forces
Yooka-Laylee
Overwatch
Bloodstained: Ritual of The Night
03bgood What does Golden Eye have to do with Overwatch? If it's because it's an fps then Doom or Battlefield could fill that spot.
gingercookie 101 I think he's more talking of how both blew up in the FPS genre, and took it to new heights. Or something.
Gg Ez But Overwatch didn't really do anything extraordinary, it just did what TF2 did slightly better and made people pay more for it.
Yea it refined it tho, added more characters and what not. It plays pretty differently as Overwatch traes more tema coordination. I think Goldeneye 007 and Overwatch are compared for blowing up in the FPS genre in their respective genres.
Gg Ez I guess, but I think Doom would fit in there more than overwatch. It manages to blend modern and classic fps gameplay. Also because they're both old fps franchises.
The fact you said Ratchet and Clank isn't a 3D platformer just seems.. insane. Platforming is part of it's core elements.
Man, I always thought the Action Platformer subgenre was under-appreciated, but now apparently it isn't even a 3d platformer...
..Like, by what you're saying, I'm guessing Jak and Daxter: The Precursor Legacy is a 3D platformer, but none of it's sequels? It just doesn't add up.
I understand drawing the lines at any game that just features platforming, but Ratchet and Clank had a full moveset that is familiar to any 3D platformer fans -
Double Jumps, gliding, it's own take on a dodge roll-type move. THAT'S what should differentiate 3D platformers from other games that just happen to feature a jump button. Not.. whatever you're using to classify Ratchet as "Not a 3D Platformer".
Nintendo itself produces so few if any in-house 3D platformers that aren't Mario titles
I find the colectathon definition so limiting, by that definition alone you’re just disregarding some of the best games in the genre, like ratchet and clank, sky cooper, sonic adventure 1 and 2 (although you could argue maybe those two aren’t as fondly remembered but they’re still pretty fun)
For as much crap as we all seem to throw at Super Mario Sunshine most of the time, I firmly believe it is the gold standard for 3D platformer control schemes. The way it handled camera controls was a natural progression from Mario 64.
If there's nothing else one can take away from Sunshine as opposed to its lesser popular ideas, I think most can agree it had its controls down-pat and I for one couldn't be happier to see Super Mario Odyssey implementing one of Sunshine's greatest strengths; dem buttery controls yo, mmm.
Great video, really made me think.
Great video, I'm so optimistic about the return of the genre :)
Lol I was thinking the same thing
I was wondering when your next video was gonna come out, and then here it is. Good shit man
ily Mac
ilymore
Yooka-Laylee wasn't successful at re-inventing the 3D Adventure Platformer.
A Hat in Time, however, will.
*odyssey also I see you literally in every comment section I go to.
it didn't wanna take any risks on the 1st just keep it similar
platformer x survival genre
So much shade against Mad Max
I love the video, especially when I hear the beast of a soundtrack that is Oxenfree in the background. Gonna have to go binge listen to it for hours again now. Thanks
I'm SO glad someone caught that Oxenfree track, easily the best soundtrack in a long time and it's perfect for videos haha.
I have to agree. It captures the theme and feel of the game perfectly. Definitely one of the best games I've played in a long time, with an amazing soundtrack to boot.
Another great one Mitch!
Great video! Let's just hope that Mario Odyssey doesn't scare off other developers into bringing back 3D platformers.
Jedi Survivor is a good example
2:02 - "...what I mean by 3D Platformer is a game that requires progression through collecting a certain number of specific items to unlock new pathways in an explorable 3D world"
How could you get the definition of '3D Platformer' so wrong? A 3D Platformer is a game in which the primary gameplay is that of a character traversing a series of platforms in a 3D space. That is it! How could you fuck this up? Collecting shit is not what defines a platformer, PLATFORMING is what defines a platformer. Is there a reason for this blinkered, N64 centric view of the genre? Are you unaware of story driven 3D platformers, liner 3D platformers, etc. Did you really just mean to make a video about Collect-a-thons and misused the term 3D Platformer, or are you just a raging Nintendo fanboy (like so many others on the internet).
I found this video infuriating as I knew that it would be another N64 fanboy waxing nostalgic about the good old days as if there wasn't a massive library of 3D platformers on the PS2 too huge to mention, now admittedly the genre fell off last generation, but there where a few good 3D platformers and a few less than good; (Sly 4: Thieves In Time, Alice: Madness Returns, Toy Story 3, Ratchet & Crank: A Crack In Time, Pacman & The Ghostly Adventures, Monsters vs. Aliens, The Simpsons Game, Sonic Generations), as well as HD remakes of the entire Sly Cooper, Ratchet & Clank, and Jak & Daxter series. The genre hardly died off; if anything it evolved. On the PS4 games like InFamous: Second Son take elements from 3D platformers, hack n slash, open world sandboxes, and RPGs and throw them all in together; while retro revivals are commonplace now.
Now, I'm not saying platformers didn't have a slump both in prominence and in quality. (Let's face it, Monsters vs. Aliens isn't competing with Psychonauts, Vexx, or any of the big franchises out there). What I am saying is this video was massively biased towards Nintendo and it was painfully obvious that you're only really familiar with one side of gaming history.
This is funny to watch post-Yooka Laylee and post-Hat in Time.
I'm looking forward to seeing what happens from this point on, could be interesting. I need to look into a Hat in Time, I'd be more on that if it gets a physical release on consoles though :)
Man, physical releases of indie games are the shit. Def look into it, it's been in development for so long I just want it to be out already.
I actually didn't find an answer - how to modernize 3D platformers. Did i miss something or there is really no answer?
He didn't really give much of an answer because there isn't really one to give from what we already know; better fluid camera, good character control and worlds shouldn't be massive empty open worlds. Aside from that you can add more unique move sets to the character like in Mario Odyssey or this indie game right here: ua-cam.com/video/melravOQGJU/v-deo.html
Don't forget Super Mario Odyssey. So this year we will basically get an old platformer in an innovative and fresh world, the team of an old platformer designing a whole new universe, and the first widely anticipated indie 3D platformer. Feels like the best year for this genre we could hope for.
As someone who grew up with 3D platformers, I'm so ready for more. However, I could forgive anyone older or younger than me for not caring as much. A lot of my love is based in nostalgia.
One of my favorite memories of these games was playing crash 3 with friends and watching them fail repeatedly on some tightly timed jumping puzzle, and being the only one who was able to beat the level. A hard 3D platformer is a good 3D platformer.
Excellent video!😄
Plot twist from 5 years from the video
Yooka laylee floped but mario odyssey renewed the formula, a new crash was released and it is pretty great, and a lot of indie 3d plataformers started to merge
Not to mention psychonauts 2
This game is one of the best collectatons created
Great video, love the topic idea.
1:00 Let's not talk about games like Mighty No.9..
Can you give a list of all the different games you feature in this episode. I'd like to be able to check some of them out but without names for them, it's hard to know what I'm looking for.
An issue I have with this video is how you define 3D platformer. The definition you used is cutting out series like Crash, Sly, and Ratchet from the discussion, even though those are examples of the 3D platformer as much as Mario and Banjo, and could be good models to follow for smaller teams so that the development costs aren't as high to get such a resurgence going.
There are three more 3D platformers (that I can think of) coming out this year. Granted, Crash Bandicoot N-sane Trilogy is a collection of remasters, and Project Sonic 2017 will likely be the same stuff we got in Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations, but Super Mario Odyssey is what I think will show us the future of 3D platformers.
Yeah! I wanted to talk about those but not having them confirmed as to exactly what they are / being remasters I didn't think it'd be a good idea to speculate but fuck Odyssey looks so hype.
I think you could talk about Journey and the things it did right, just like the camera movement and social interaction as new "mechanic" in the genre, it might not be a full collectathon but it brough some interesting ideas to the 3D Platformer's table. Great video anyway. ^_^
I uh... have never played Journey :( please don't hate me/
No way, I don't hate you, I really like and appreciate your content. xd You don't need to play the game actually, watch John Nesky's talk at GDC about camera mistakes and how they improved it on Journey, it's really interesting and useful for this genre. :D
Watching this video after YookaLaylee came out makes the immense hope given towards it, the passing of the baton in a way, kinda bittersweet. So many people put a big weight on it, and I believe that it didn't meet expectations as a whole. Many people love the game, but a large portion of the community also dislikes it to some degree. Even if you think the game was successful in some way or if you enjoyed it, I don't believe that it will be able to be the resurgence of the genre.
Don't forget Super Mario Odyssey! I would bet it is a direct result of the Kickstarter success of A Hat in Time and Yooka-Laylee.
Also, though Hat has bright and colorful levels, it looks like these will be contrasted by darker, creepier themes like Mafia, murder, and selling your soul to a shadow-ghost.
Well with spyro and crash remakes plus the rereleased of sm64 its def making a comeback
I hope this brings back the platformers period. The industry has too many open-world games and FPS these days. I love open worlds, but even I have my limits on what game worlds to explore.
thanks for the video.
I don't think 3D platformers will do much better the 2nd time around unless they broaden their horizons a little bit. I don't mean that they incorporate more genres like Ratchet & Clank or the latter Jak games, but there should be something other than a Collect-o-thon mascot platformer that people strive for.
For example, on the PS4 I've found absolute gems like Gravity Rush & Last Guardian, where the core gameplay is still all about traversing a space but they both have creative ways to do it along with running and jumping.
Plus, little indie titles like Tiny & Big: Grampa's Leftovers, and A Story About My Uncle (though that one is First-Person) do wonders in providing the feel and nostalgia of those old games while still being fresh.
I don't get it. Why when people talk about platformers, they forget one of the most popular game series ever, a chart topper for pretty much the complete last 10 years? Assassin's Creed. It's open-world stealth combat platformer, and while it often lacks good level design, and is overall like a mishmash of every buzzword you could come up with in the 2000s at the time of its inception, i feel that platforming is a central trait of its gameplay experience, and its distinguishing trait against e.g. GTA which makes driving and shooting the predominant mechanics. And in turn it evolved from Prince of Persia games, which nobody remembers in this context. Somehow unless the characters are tiny and cute and round, it's not the same genre any more? And i get it if you never liked either of these series or are tired of Assassin's Creed's yearly mediocrity, it's just that they should be a part of this discussion. The genre you mourn has never left, it has morphed and stayed a top seller. Why is Tomb Raider never mentioned in this context either? If you're looking for a modernised platformer, here they are, you have missed them all along. In turn the titles you speak of don't necessarily have the goal to modernise anything in particular, but rather bring back the classic experience.
Good point about world size (Mad Max is a perfect example). "Open world" has become a curse word for me. I'd like to see at least an attempt to craft smaller, tighter worlds rich in detail without pandering to square-footage.
After No Man's Sky I think we're done with size and can go back to tight and concise design... please
Shit dude this was great! You really hit the nail on the head with this video. Super stoked to have more people excited and hopeful for the future of 3D platformers!
thanks my dude! Best part of making this video was getting to play Spyro for the first time tbh, reminded me of your streams haha.
That was your first time?!?! Dude, you've been missing out!
I know!! I been fuckin up but I'm invested and wanna play all the ps1 games now
I'm making a 3D platformer right now! I got the inspiration from Conker's Bad Fur Day and Banjo-Kazooie. So it will play like Banjo-Kazooie but have that funny and disturbing shit from Conker's Bad Fur Day. I hope it turns out good in the end. I am the only one working on it so far.
@Repo man It is on hold atm because I am learning more about Unreal Engine 4 and Blender. I want to make it as best as I can so I'm getting more experience first until I am confident to keep working on it.
3D platformers and collectathons are not one in the same, they just happened to overlap a lot. I mean, your own definition cuts out recent Mario games, which you alluded to, despite them being almost the exact same from a gameplay perspective. A 3D platformer is defined by the 3D platforming aspects, not the collecting aspects, which is just a progression/exploration system. So yeah, I don't know. That weird definition aside, I think that a lot of games that are 3D platformers at their heart aren't recognized for it because they perform differently. For instance, the Prince of Persia Sands of Time trilogy was a 3D platformer. But combat was more complex, the difficulty was harder, the methods of platforming were different, and the tone was a lot different than the mascot driven games that are so heavily associated with 3D platformers. Platforming elements have also been carried over into a ton of games. Uncharted, inFamous, Assassin's Creed, to name a couple. But they are never, or only very rarely, used as the primary challenge. That is, you are almost never asked to tightly platform through obstacles or environments despite shared mechanics from their predecessors, ie Crash/Jak, Sly Cooper, Prince of Persia.
The 3D platformer fell out of favor too early for the genre to jump the shark. However, this meant that the genre never really got a shot to evolve. It's why I've always been a fan of A Hat in Time, since it was the first project of this era to openly cite collect-a-thons as an influence. But I think the genre is safe from the saturation of the 2D platformer, due to higher budgets and a more intricate design philosophy. It's too complex for every single indie dev to go for, so I think only experienced devs will consider the challenge worth investing. Still, this'll depend on the popularity of Yooka-Laylee, FreezeME, and A Hat in Time, because people will go where the money goes, and the money will go where the gamers want it to go. Great video, guy.
Yeah it was such a weirdly super popular then just gone genre, but left such a big impression on so many like myself. I have heard mixed things about FreezeME, have you played it?
Not yet, but I'd like to. This genre is a big part of my gaming upbringing too, so I want to see how devs who grew up with these games manage to put their own spin on it. FreezeME seems interesting to me.
Interesting to go back to this video after Yooka Laylee's launch. A lot of notices about nostalgia and the needs to bring something new.
Some people also mention Snake Pass as a recent 3D platformer, does it fit your description with its weird control scheme or does the more standard levels separation put it in the "not-sandbox" category?
Now waiting for A Hat in Time (and probably Mario Odyssey) to see what happens next!
Snake Pass is an interesting case, not just because of the unique mechanics, but because of the progression system. The levels have a set goal, but in order to activate it you have to explore the level and find 3 keys. In that respect, I would call it a hybrid, but in terms of level design it has more in common with collectathon style platformers, the levels are more open ended and exploration based.
One thing I do think it gets right though is that it's probably the most challenging open world platformers I've played. Most collectathons tend to be on the easy side because open world level design tends to be more forgiving and less obstacle based. But because of the way Noodle controls navigating in and of itself is a challenge so the kind of jumps that a regular platformer might be able to make easily are more difficult to pull off with Noodle. Not sure if this can really translate into other platformers because of how much it hinges on Noodle being a snake, but if other platformers can find some way to draw from Snake Pass collectathons would definitely be better off.
0:45 it’s “et cetera” not “ec cetera.” That’s why it’s abbreviating etc. not ecc.
This video is so old who cares
Platformers and collectathons need to be treated as separate genres, or else the genre(s) may fail, and fade away again. This is a topic I've been thinking about a lot. I strongly believe that these two genres are different. Collectathons have platforming, but I want to explain why I think they are different.
Platformers, in my eyes, are games like Sonic (2D and 3D), The Mario games (3D too, more on that later), Shantae, Rayman (all of them), Crash Trilogy, The DKC Trilogy, and most recently, A Hat in Time. Collectathons are games like Banjo, DK64, Conker's Bad Fur Day, and Psyhonauts. The former focus more on getting through stages. Sure, you find stuff, but it's more about the journey, then the end. Even though you enter and explore worlds non-linearly in SM64, you are still essentially getting to the end of a stage. Instead of a flag, you get a star. There are two collectibles in SM64. Coins, and Stars (and I guess technically keys, but there's only 3 so..).
This game begins to introduce elements that would become staples of the collectathon, but at its core, I still believe it is more about platforming through a "stage", then finding stuff. Rayman 2 is a straight up stage based platformer. It has cages, and Lums. Two collectibles. Cages are completely optional save for the obvious one at the end of each stage, and Lums can be mostly ignored, but you'll need a few to get through certain gates. Sonic? Get through stages FAST. Sonic has stuff you can find in all games, but it's still always (mostly) been about using your skills and abilities to navigate through stages.
Collectathons came about after SM64. They function like platformers, but feel the need to "give us more to do" so they are often comprised of sprawling levels with several collectibles, on top of a main MacGuffin. You don't focus on getting through stages as much as you do on finding things within a stage to do to get a reward. I..never got into Banjo (Though from an outsider's eye, it still looks better than DK64 by a small margin). DK64 was fun when I was a kid, but looking back, it is such a slog. I played the Wii U version recently, and yeah, it just wore me down. Unlike the DCK games, where I go through levels, I'm hunting down a bajillion things, traversing the same area again, and again. Back to Mario though, 3D Mario has always kept a balance. Sunshine is about as collectathon as the series gets, but I love that game. Galaxy 1, and 2, and the 3D Land/ World games appeal more to what I personally like about platformers.
I don't like the collectathon formula as much as regular platformers. I don't like how it replaced more traditional stage-based platformers when 3D became the norm. That's why I love Rayman 2 so much. It's a real, 3D platformer. It doesn't try to be anything else, and it's a great game because of it. It doesn't need a hub world. It didn't need a million things to find. The levels were fun, unique, and action packed. Collectathons ruined platforming, in some ways, but, I'll admit, there are still good collectathons. I still like the platforming segments in every game mentioned, I just wish there was more of it, cause that's thre best part for me. That's why I play these games. I don't want to find stuff. I want to play a game. Mario 64 is a great balance. Rayman 2 is a great platforming game. DK64, and from what I've seen, Banjo, just kinda take it to the extreme. You got 8-9 worlds in those games, so you'll be spending a lot of time there. SM64 had 15 main levels, with about 6-7 smaller areas. Rayman 2 has 19 unique stages, with about 15 different themes.
And, a Hat in Time hits this balance pretty damn nicely too. It's like.. up there, it's a good game. If we want this genre as a whole to succeed in 2017+, we need to acknowledge the differences within that genre. It's okay to have different styles, but I feel like any 3D platformer is expected to be a collectathon, but they don't all need to be, and they surely shouldn't all be. This is important so that not everyone on the outside sees this genre as DK64s and Yooka-Laylees, in case they don't like that style.
So when did 2d platformers supposedly die out? I noticed the over saturation in recent years but I never remember a time with none. They've been around since the 70s.
3:46 and that's stupid, just because Open World games started to get more popular, doesn't mean 3D platformers needed to die as a result. I'm glad Mario keeps that alive
What annoys me about recent platformers like Yooka-Laylee is that they ignore the modernization efforts made in the '00s/early 2010s by Mario Galaxy and Mirrors Edge in favour of the clunky retro-style N64 gameplay.
Sly cooper, rayman, ratchet and clank, crash bandicoot, psychonauts, not only are these my favourite games of all time but apparently not 3d platformers according to your definition...
There are more to 3d platformers than just collectables they are important but not always the main gameplay mechanic
Yeah I fucked up, I should have titled this about collectathons in all honesty.
no problem lol I was just slightly triggered while watching this just cuz those games mean so much to me I enjoyed the video overall
Curious as to what you thought of last year's "Unbox"?
By your definition Jak II, Jak 3 and other games aren't 3D platformers but they are. 3D Action platformers, same with Ratczet & Clank. The first Jak and Daxter title is a traditional 3D platformer. You forgot to mention Snake Pass = One of a kind, Crash Bandicoot N'Sane Trilogy and Skylar Plux! More titles will hopefully be announced at E3
If you haven't already, check out *Unbox*. This is one of the big surprises for me last year. A really refreshing 3D platformer that didn't get the love it deserved.
You could also say that Ubisoft's *Grow Home & Grow Up* also count as 3D platformers.
Also, a little criticism for your video. You were repeating many of your points ("open world becoming stale", "let's see what these two platformers do" etc.) at several parts of your video. Also, you were mixing factual portions with our opinionated parts. All I want to say that you should work on your script structuring more.
I'll have to check out Unbox, I must have missed it when I was looking for recent platformers. Writing is easily my weakest point so I appreciate any feedback, gonna take that into consideration, thank you!
The Pagies mechanic looks a bit different, hopefully it turns out well-realized and not disappointing. I'm definitely hoping 3D platformers/collectathons make a resurgence; while some games (I'm looking at you, Ubisoft) have done this, they just don't have the charm that these sort of games have and it isn't compelling.
Between Yooka-Laylee and A Hat in Time, it looks like there's some good blood being injected into the genre. Hopefully the Crash Bandicoot remaster is done well, that might spur some renewed interest as well. Great video, man.
God I am so scared that crash remaster isn't gonna be great, I really hope it is but the artsyle for me is kinda gross and it looks slow, here's to hoping I'm very wrong tho.
I want to belieeeeve. But yeah, I agree. From what I've seen, it just feels very... off. Definitely hoping it turns out better than it seems, though.
Draz And maybe Ubisoft will see all this and finally make a new 3D Rayman. Seriously, that would be awesome if they did it right.
As a fan of the genre, I never really realized how big role collectibles play in 3D platformers, but you're right, I can't think of a (pretty much) sole platfomer without them
Please be good Yooka Laylee... Please.
nope.avi
too late.... but hat in time is good :)
Well, it's been 11 months; did you buy the game and what did YOU think of the game?
So many of you guys actually played the game and how many of you just saw reviews
Honestly not sure I agree with the strict definition leaving Ratchet and Clank out. Though I suppose that makes it an "Action Platformer". Which is honestly sad because while the 3d puzzle platformer style came back, with things like mario odyssey, action platformers are dead in the water.
3d platformers aren't collectathons, the 3d games with platforming. If I used your definition then basically anything could be a 3d platformer.
Don't forget Skylar and Plux! :D
Found this looking for videos about Gex
jk, hadn't heard of ahead in time though, can't find anything about it, got a link somewhere? Also, thoughts on Psychonauts 2? The first one did feel like a 3D collectathon, didn't it?
Seriouslly no world about the best 3D Platfromers Rayman 2 and 3 :(
Could the Tony Hawk series be considered as a variation of the 3D platformer?
*Cough* Prince of Persia
I hope we get a new 3d ryaman
Have you heard of Mark Brown? Your thumbnails kinda look the same.
This is a Bazruten comment if I ever saw one.
who?
just wondering why you didn't talk about Mario Odyssey at all? I think that's the big torch carrier for 3D platformers this year.
+Calamack I made this video when no one really knew if it'd be a collectathon then or not, if I waited a couple weeks I could have talked about it haha
Please, can anyone tell me what game is that over 5:28? Right after Spyro, that jumping thing that gets eletrified, what game is it?
It's Jak & Daxter for PS2!
Im late for that but i still wanna ask
Do you consider Sonic Adventure 1 a 3D Platformer ? It features progression from A to B instead of being a collectathon
His definition wasn't that great - he's talking about collect-a-thons. Sonic Adventure is definitely a 3D platformer. Basically 3D platformers are games with a focus on fully-controlled (so Uncharted doesn't count) jumping from platform to platform in 3D.
@@wellyouknowthatslikeyouropinio
Kind of annoys me how often people associate 3D Platformers with collecting instead of you know..platforming
I fail to see a need to really "modernize" the genre aside from little things like camera controls (but even then, I thought Sunshine's camera was perfect). The only thing they should really be concerned about is focusing on the platforming and exploration and not having tons of mini games and filler crap. Beyond that, the formula itself is perfectly fine, no need to fix what isn't broken.
And it's not like linear platformers have really modernized either. Look at a lot of Nintendo's recent platformers, they've all played basically the same and don't really differ much from their classic formulas aside from having shinier graphics. So sick of this double standard between linear and collectathon platformers. 3D World and Tropical Freeze do nothing to push the genre forward and they get 10/10s. But when Yooka Laylee does nothing to push the genre forward all of the critics blast the game and give it 6/10s.
Exclusives are one of the worst concepts in gaming! It's like having able to play some movies only on DVDs from a certain company!
I mean that's actually the case believe it or not at the start of most format wars. It's just that eventually people find the best standard and then companies are forced to move to it to make a profit. I actually do find it a little odd how eventually each video format was narrowed down to just VHS, DVD, or Blu-Ray. You would think there would still be competition between companies for a while like the consoles on what movies get released where.
What's the 2d platformer shown from 1:06 to 1:12 ?
Umm Ratchet and Clank absolutely is a platformer.
Yooka Layley is great proof that platformers need to not be total shit to be good
somehow the N64 games are the most pleasing to the eye! The newer games have too much details, so the overal composition is bad, and the colors and shapes are mangled.
I would say that "coin collecting" is what ruined platforming games for me. Eventually I grew out of wanting to follow trails of spinning coins, I'm much more interested in games that move like Warframe, Tomb Raider, or Assassins Creed now. Open worlds that you can acrobat your way through. I want there to be a reason there is a trail of coins to follow besides the act of collecting a trail of coins, I guess, and I would argue against limiting the genre to only games that focus on that.
Don't listen to his definition. He is describing Collectathons, not 3D platformers. A platformer is any game you can jump in, and Uncharted, Assassin's Creed and Tomb Raider are listed as 3D platformers on wikipedia.
@@Treetops27 1) Uncharted and Assasin's Creed aren't platformers even according to Wikipedia (inFamous however is a fantastic platformer)
2) Your definition excludes games like Snake Pass and Super Monkey Ball whilst including games like Overwatch and Ocarina of Time
I appreciate your use of the term 3D platformer. That, and not collect-a-thin is the term I always used. I don't care if it's proper.
Collect-O-Thon platformer with its own unique twist?
I'll give it my best shot.
Boy, I hated the changes Jak II made from the first one.
I didn't play Jak 1 and 2 until the collection came out so I was pretty mad when I got to the second one not knowing about the change haha
Actually, I haven't played them until recently, either. I bought a used PS3 a year ago and picked up the Jak, Ratchet, and Sly trilogies to play them all for the first time. With the exception of Jak II and maybe III if it continues this way, it's been a blast.
why he didnt mention mario odyssey?
because we know very little about Mario Odyessy and it wasn't announced when I wrote this video.
We know a bit but you wrote this in december or somethin?
While I do agree with most of what you say in this video, I really have to question why you limit your discussion to only collectathons, and why you use the term "3D Platformer" to refer to collectathons even though you acknowledge that the term collectathon exists and is more specific to what you are talking about. Its a lot like if you were to make a video on 2D Platformers and only discuss Mega Man clones, and insist that the term "2D platformer" only refers to those, or if you were to insist that "FPS" only applies to fast-paced singleplayer shooters like DOOM and that competitive focused FPSes like CSGO don't count.
It's 2017. COME ON UBISOFT!! MAKE... RAYMAN... 4!!!!!
What about super Mario odyssey?
3D platformers have never been a thriving sub-genre of quality, have they? People all just remember a handful of great ones, and then the rest depends on how low your standards are for copycats. So, if there aren't many 3D platformers after Yooka Laylee and A Hat In Time come out, it wouldn't be surprising. People and critics have higher expectations now. If collectathon 3D platformers want to stay relevant, they'll have to become modernised like having compelling storytelling or have innovation in gameplay or systems. If not, they'll just stay in memories.
get 10k subs boi