Are Mini Shotgun Shells Viable for Self-Defense?
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- Within just the last few years, 1 3/4" mini shotgun shells have gone from quirky novelty status to an ammo option that firearm and shotshell makers seem to be taking seriously. Mini shells offer reduced recoil and increased ammo capacity -- ideal features for a lot of shotgun users. But are these pint-sized 12 gauge loads just as effective as the standard 2 3/4" shells? Or is there some kind of tradeoff? We measured and tested four different mini-shells to find out their muzzle velocity, how they pattern at home defense distances, and their performance in ballistic gelatin.
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Stuff like this is what I absolutely adore about shotguns: the sheer amount of different things you can run through them
What shotguns do you run them through.Mossberg has the adapter.Can the mini shell be run in any shotgun?
@m.ltucker4314 I believe some shotguns run them just fine, others might need adapters to reliably cycle.
@@m.ltucker4314any slamfire whatever can handle minis. My Four Winds does 'em all reliably, even 3" shells.
yeap you can bird shot, slugs, pumpkin ball slugs, rubber buck shot, buckshot, breaching rounds, flares, dragons breath, bolo shot, wooden stakes, sockets, dimes, and if the mag tube is long enough....all of those loaded at once.
Reduced recoil , more ammo capacity and limited penetration this is a perfect option for people living in apt , condos or mobile homes . And if used for home defense the object is to stop or repel the intruder not chasing down the block having a running gun battle . And 9 rounds vs 5 or 6 means you will not have to reload under stress and hopefully 9 rounds will solve the problem .
With a 12 gauge... hopefully 2 will solve your issues.
@@tylertapp131 Unless there are 3 or more attackers which is getting quite common in Houston , TX for home invasions , robberies , carjackings even catalytic converter thefts . Has an off-duty HCSO deputy killed while trying to stop 3 thugs trying to steal his catalytic converter in a parking lot . So never , ever assume there will be only one attacker or that they will not fight back .
@@joejohnson4183 I dont assume. Stating an opinion and I was talking about IF.....it was a single person. I'm not tellin people to only have two rounds.... I said it shouldnt take more then that do deal with an individual with a 12 guage. If yours can hold 30 that's awesome more power to ya. But just because you have 30 doesnt mean you have to spray and pray.
@@tylertapp131 Did you delete your previous post because it is no longer visible ? If so , why ?
@@joejohnson4183 no I didnt delete any post. I edited the second one I sent.
Thank you for your kind words about our product, the OPSol Flex Adapter (known as the miniclip). The miniclip effort began in 2012, and specifically for one reason....so our wives and daughters had a shotgun platform for home defense. We always knew the minisSHELLS were adequate for home defense, though it has taken some years for the industry to appreciate that.
We predicted, via the miniclip, that there would be a "minishell revolution", and your video is one more testament to that prediction coming true.
Mossberg introduced the Shockwave in 2017, after having our miniclips in their hands for 1 year. For our part, we designed the miniclip on a Mav88, before checking if it worked on a 500 or 590.
Mossberg, and Federal, did not decide to move forward with minishells or a redesign of the 500 until well after our sales had reached near 100,000 sold, and the realization that Aguila and Challenger could not keep minishells on the market.
Many people have asked us if we have an adapter for the 870. Yes, we have designed a prototype, but it requires some adaption of the carrier/trigger assembly of the 870.
We have no intention of moving forward with this right now, because the logical next step is just what Mossberg has done, redesign their shotguns for minishells. And frankly, they should be doing it with their auto shotguns as well.
For our part, first, thank to all our customers who trusted our product, and to all those who already have Shockwaves, 500, 590s. 590A1s, and Mav 88s, we are happy to sell you a simple solution so you can run minishells for about $20.
Finally, for those interested, minishell lethality in 20g is doable. Our friend, Dan the Man, has provided us with research shells in 20 that are more than adequate for home defense, both in bird, #1buck, and slug. We have a prototype adapter for 20, but are waiting for manufacturers to commit to the production of minis.
Oh, and choked shockwave barrels do a nice job of tightening up mini bird and buck rounds at 8 yards......
Thank you for making the product I am a huge fan since 2019/20 when I bought mine to teach my wife to shoot, heck my miniclip has yet to even exit my Mossberg since I added it.
My friends thought I was foolish at first till their wives and kids kept asking to use my shotgun and ammo because they could practice longer with it.
@@demonic7610 You are welcome...and glad to hear the family likes it. As my wife said...it is empowering.
Awesome! That's exactly why I got your adapter as well - for the ladies in the house.
@@BaritoneMonkey Thanks. If only the big boys would start pushing the idea......
Very cool. A great product for sure
The mini shells in the mini shotguns (Tac-14, Shockwave, etc...) always seemed like a viable home defense alternative if you live in a townhouse/apartment/condo, especially if you live in a restricted state and didn't have grandfathered magazines.
Especially because it makes the recoil a lot more manageable since you can't shoulder those "other weapon" shotguns.
@@1810jeff have you seen the "cheek pistol" use with those? super interesting conceptually
Sadly the birds head style shotguns are also limited in some of those states. Unless you want one with an 18.5” barrel, at which point I’ll take a stock.
Not aware of any shotgun "magazines" that can take mini shells. Just tubes.
@@davidwilliams5749 a tube magazine is still a magazine, just like a box magazine isn't just a box.
One interesting note about slugs: low recoil slugs typically penetrate much more than standard (1600 fps) slugs, at least in every gel test I've seen. That's because standard velocity slugs deform extensively on impact, so the effective diameter increases a lot. Low recoil slugs are often below the expansion threshold, so they behave like a ball round (or a round ball).
That's good to know.the 1600/1700fps slugs really beat on my old bones
@@tommydavis9660 the way I look at it is that full power slugs are designed for hunting at long-range. Because they are so inefficient aerodynamically, they have to start out pretty fast to carry enough energy downrange. But they are overkill at point-blank self defense ranges. A low velocity tactical slug at 10 to 15 yards has at least as much energy as a full power slug at 100 yards; that's enough for me!
Interesting and makes sense. I just realized I've never seen much gel testing with slugs now that you mention it.
@@chickenfishhybrid44 tnoutdoors9 did quite a few slug tests in gel over the years---impressive energy dump! Holding the block down turns out to be the biggest challenge.
You are right. Also, that is one big bullet! In a perp, it is going to bad news. One center mast and game over.
Chris, you're a legend my friend. Thanks for always being fair and honest in your videos,
Thanks and you're welcome!
Chris: I think we’re out of mini shells…
Everyone that just watched him shoot all the in-stock supply of minis for “science”.
and being not a vegetarian too
I could not agree more, this guy is such a class act. Absolutely one of the best, if not the best reviewer in the gun community.
@@bjolly8924well organized, well spoken, and gets to the point fast! 👍
During the height of the pandemic and public unrest, I actually used these mini-shells in my Maverick88 for HD. I wanted MAX firepower and figured with the close confines of my home, the little shells would be adequate. I bought the little adapter and it seemed to work fine as far as feeding was concerned. Where I normally carried 4-5 12ga shells in the tube, I think I had like 9+1 with the Aguilla mini-shells.
Someone broke into your house?
@@mattwalters6834 He said he "used" it for self defense, the same way I "use" a Glock.
It's a slight grammatical error. He means that he keeps it prepared for use.
@@cymond neat, thanks for the clarification!!!
Try the Defender Tactical adapter, just got mine and it works great on my 590 a1 and you can use mini to 3 inch shells just like a 590 s.
There's another company that makes a new kind of adapter now that seems a bit more reliable than the opsol one. It doesn't come out under recoil like the opsol one and can feed short and long shells.
A reliable semi-auto built to run these exclusively is a very interesting prospect and I wish there was a market big enough to support one. If it was a purpose-built thing and not just adapted from an existing design meant to handle standard sized shells, I imagine it could weigh a lot less than full sized competitors.
The issue would be that you would be limited to mini shells.
Some manufacturers felt the same but in a semi-auto (detachable mag) chambered in .410. Less recoil, faster follow-up shots, and, more importantly, less weight. But there are trade-offs. Namely ballistics.
The biggest issue would be some jackass putting a 2 3/4 or 3" in it.
Like some do with 20ga/12ga
@@tacamo21 Im good with that
@@tacamo21 have you ever been concerned about being able to put 9 in your 380? 🤷 Same idea
Phenomenal content! These are the types of videos that separate this channel from the noise here on UA-cam. Keep it up.
Well put. I agree.
Paul Harrel does a pretty good job as well. If I want to learn something you 2 are the standard for me.
As mini shells become more popular I am sure that the ammunition manufacturers will work to improve the performance.
Hopefully, but Federal did discontinue a 2 3/4” 1buck with flite-control that the shotgun cognoscenti swore would be just the ticket, so I’m not confident saying what manufacturers will or won’t do.
I am sure that the ammunition manufacturers will work to increase the price.*
@@509Gman They discontinued it because 10 years ago because only law enforcement was still buying it and then pretty much all law enforcement agencies went to rifles. it only got big again because some bigger UA-cam channels have been pushing it over the past 3-5 years. They've been making people scared of using regular buckshot for home defense which is just silly. Flite Control was specifically developed for law enforcement situations such as longer shots at rifle wielding suspects or hostage situations at close range. it defeats the entire advantage of shotguns with their higher hit probability in low light situations. These goofy, immature Millennial UA-camrs seem to think every home defense situation ends with a hostage situation, or your entire family is just always sitting behind 3 home invasion robbers where you need to take a shot and you need a rifle like shot to take care of business. Or, they somehow think standard #4 Buckshot goes through 3 houses and kills everyone in it's path, when Paul Harrell showed that it loses it penetration fast and would likely not have lethal penetration past even one or two walls. The very best solution for a shotgun for home defense where penetration is a concern is to use standard #4 Buckshot that spreads. You will stop the threat immediately before a hostage situation could happen and the stray pellets quickly lose energy. Flite Control is best left for hunters and law enforcement.
Performance wise, according to Paul Harrell and Lucky Gunner's testing, the Federal Shorty #4 Buckshot Shell is shooting a 311 grain payload of lead at roughly 1200fps, which equals just under 1,000 Ft lbs of energy. This blows away any pistol round outside of a hot 44 Magnum. And the #4 Buck's spread means it will affect a larger area. .223 rounds out of 16" Barrels are usually around 900 to 1000 ft lbs of energy. So these shorty rounds are serious manstoppers.Yeah, it would be nice to see them produce a #1 Buck or a regular, non-split 00 Buckshot load for sure, but for home defense, the current #4 Shorty Buckshot loads will absolutely end a threat quickly. And because of the tighter pattern and 15 pellets, you could easily take down a body armor wearing home invader with a neck/head shot without missing.
It doesn't really have anything to do with the ammo itself.
Absolutely! I have Aquila 1 3/4 12-gauge rounds in my KSG Bullpup. 12 slug in one side, 12 buck in the other and one of the chamber. Cycles perfectly!
Its Aguila not Aquila. Aguila means "Eagle"....
According to Paul Harrell and Lucky Gunner's testing, the Federal Shorty #4 Buckshot Shell is shooting a 311 grain payload of lead at roughly 1200fps, which equals just under 1,000 Ft lbs of energy compared to any pistol round outside of a hot 44 Magnum load. And the #4 Buck's spread means it will affect a larger area as well. .223 rounds out of 16" Barrels are usually around 900 to 1000 ft lbs of energy. So these shorty rounds are serious manstoppers.
Excellent point. We at OPSol have been saying for literally 10 years that minishells are quite lethal. I am not expert but when you put a mini buck round from Aguila or Federal up against 2 sheets of real 3/4" plywood (an inch apart), 1/2 the pellets push through both sheets.
Try stabbing a knife through a sheet of plywood, or really, even a hammer.
It's basically, minimum, 14 or so 17 cal lead pellets hitting you at pistol speed. That's lethal.
I really like the idea of the mini shells. I'm not really a shotgun guy whatsoever, but they seem like they'd be fun to try out!
Fun yes.. but definitely want to try them in your gun to make sure it'll run them.
@@Oldmanwithagoldpan absolutely. Clearing another malfunction every two minutes would ruin the fun and make the mini shells almost worthless.
I wasn't a shotgun guy either... until I got a shotgun. Now, I'm looking to pick up my third one. 😁😁
@@Tux.Penguin agreed..
a shotgun and a PCC in close quarters can be a Whoopsie" for a home invader who meets a husband and wife, both armed and trained. If they get past the protective and noisy little inside dogs. The dogs give people the chance to get in place.
As an alternative you could look at the 28 guage. Competitive skeet shooters have had a love affair with the 28 guage for decades. If you spend any time with one, you will fall in love too.
Those 1 oz mini slugs look interesting. The other? Not sure, but I’m glad ammo and arms makers are offering us defensive scattergunners more choices.
Fill a KSG-12 with those and you can do a lot of home defense.
I think apartment use is something that shouldn’t be ignored, but I’m personally content with my 2 3/4 #4 buck. While over penetration is a concern in apartments, they’re also small enough that it’s usually fairly easy to plan ahead where you want an engagement to take place so that you have a clear, easy shot at a choke point with a decent backstop. I feel the chances of needing more than 6 shells are lower than the chances of a malfunction with mini shells.
No disrespect, but in 28 years of carrying weapons. The army as a 11b, as a deputy in a very busy area, and working southwest Asia and mideast. During that time, I have used my firearms in up close personal kind of social work multiple times. You make think that 6 is enough for a small apartment. It generally isn't. A shotgun is harder to slice the pie with. So as you do so with a long arm you may have to fire several times to keep the subject in a position where they don't pose a threat. As you enter an area, your opponent may punch push or head you so they can leave that room. They may just hit you and take your long arm. There may be several hostile opponents. That is one of three major problems I see with long arms. Too easy to physically take away weapon, low round count and slow to load. But everyone has the right to place their life on their decisions. Personally I think most people will avoid my property. Partly because of 4 rather large dogs used for herd protection but mostly my three attack ostriches
@@JohnGalt-vr3lx keep in mind that my needs are defensive, not offensive as you’re describing. I also subscribe to the philosophy of “Leave room clearing to the professionals- just chill in the master bedroom until the police arrive. The gun is for self defense if invaders try to enter the bedroom.” In that situation, against the threats an average civilian is likely to face (how often do you have more than 3 or so apartment invaders outside of gang stuff, which I’m not part of, and how often, after seeing the first one or two in front get chunks of their chests blown out, do the rest decide to keep charging forward into the room instead of skedaddling), 6 rounds sounds absolutely enough to hold a single choke point against the mundane thieves who think a small apartment is worth breaking into.
@@Florkl bad news for you. There is no offense or defense unless you are the only person there
@@Florkl not to mention that shotguns are easy to top off while still at the ready, so keep some loose rounds in a weak side pocket.
@@JohnGalt-vr3lx You pick the right gear for the mission. A lone civilian with no battle buddies and no training trying to clear rooms is a dead man walking. So even if they had a Mk18 or some other SBR, your average civilian is better of seeking cover where they can hold down a fatal funnel point. And since they're not pie-ing corners it's fine to have a long gun.
Seems like the 1oz slug is the option that makes the most sense. As you said, it provides the same performance as 2-3/4" shells but provides about 50% more capacity. There does not seem to be much of a down side there, and only up-side. I don't think anyone ever wished that their gun or rifle held LESS ammo.
Slugs have a tendency to over-penetrate though so you lose one of the biggest benefits of using a shotgun for home defense which is not having the rounds go through the bad guy and kill somebody in the next building over.
@@elmateo77 over penetration is ab exaggerated problem
@@nelsonr1467 How do you figure that? I mean if you live out in the country and the nearest neighbor is half a mile away I wouldn't worry about it, but if you live in an apartment or a suburban house where you can reach out your window and touch your neighbors house it's certainly a valid concern. Drywall might as well not even be there when it comes to stopping bullets and the exterior walls of most modern buildings aren't much better.
@@elmateo77 any round that can put a man down, will overpenertrate drywall, including birdshot or even 22lr. If overpenertration is such a concern, maybe a firearm is not a good choice.
@@nelsonr1467 Any round can, but there are different degrees of risk. A 22 is unlikely to go through a guy, a few walls, and then kill the neighbor. A shotgun slug easily could.
Love to see you guys do a 410 home defense video
I would love to be able to buy see sone 410 back on the market....
It'd be really interesting to see if someone (*cough cough* Federal) could come up with a proper FC #1 buck load in the minishell format, AND a decent shotgun company could make a gun set up specifically to use it (i.e. shorter receiver, shorter length of throw for the action, etc). Treating it as a separate system rather than a kludge based on existing patterns could really be interesting. For one thing, I think such a setup would go a long way to helping smaller-statured shooters with issues reaching the forend and cycling it properly.
#2 BUCK & #1 BUCK FTW
Absolutely. The R&D is probably prohibitively expensive for anyone to take a chance on it, but it would be an absolute game-changer
@@LuckyGunner shouldn't be too hard with a ratchet pump system.
@@HAYAOLEONE exactly
I've wondered if there is a market for something like an AR15 SBR/Pistol that can shoot buck/bird shot that can penetrate an intruder from maybe 10 yards away (30') but loses lethality if it hits drywall (breaks up on contact). This would be for apartment type situations. Safer for the neighbors and typically the distance needed would not be greater than 30'.
I use them in my Keltec KS7 where the full size buckshot will knock the stew out of your face. Holds great pattern at 30 yards too. Highly impressed with them.
The short slug would be devastating and over-penetrative for home defense, but I'd still love to own some. I'm planning on getting a Mossberg 590S so I can try different kinds of the mini shells for hobby/range shooting They seem potentially super fun. I'd love to experiment with some birdshot mini shells as well.
The answer is yes. Mystery solved
Could be a problem using those in a state like NJ where you are limited by law to the number of shells in semi auto shotguns. Being NJ they would love to make you a criminal for trying to defend yourself from real criminals.
Seems likely to be a moot point as they don't cycle in any semiautomatic I've heard of.
Daily reminder that NJ is horrible and I can't wait to get out of this hellhole
Yeah, you keep listening to those commies
None of these designed to run in semi autos
They don't cycle in semi-auto shotguns. Did you watch the same video?
Now that you mention it, I would like a pistol caliber carbine using a stick magazine designed to hold mini shells only. Up until now, stick mags for shotguns were way to bulky. Somebody needs to make thar happen also.
The diameter is the same. So while the weight will be less. The mag will be just as bulky. Maybe a helical drum would make it worthwhile?
Keeping a shotgun mag loaded against a closed bolt tends to deform the mouth of the first shell out of the mag. We see this with Saiga shotguns. That's deformed first or second shell can be unreliable..... therefore I don't like mag fed shotguns.
You said at around 10:21, shotgun engagements rarely involve more than 1 or 2 shots, so why would you want to give up effectiveness over capacity. This is exactly correct, and even in hostel situations out side of home defense, this is also the case. The effectiveness of the round is most often in direct proportion to the threat being engaged, therefore you want effectiveness over capacity every time. Now with that said, I think there is a place for short shells (or mini shells as you call them) in hunting and range shooting (plus they are fun to shoot). But I have never considered them a viable option for defense purposes. Thanks for the video, it was very good.
I mean, that seems to be the opposite viewpoint for every other type of weapon out there, like choosing 9mm pistols over .45ACP or 10mm, or choosing 5.56 NATO rifles over 7.62 NATO or .30-06. Higher capacity, lighter recoil.
Then again, the same arguments can also apply there. Is 17+1 really that much better than 15+1 if you only fire 6 rounds in a self defense pistol shooting?
Agreed, I'm sticking with my 15 pellets of 00 and 21 pellets of #4 and 2x58 cal steel balls and 1⅜ Oz FURY SJHP slugs for home defense. All in 2¾ hulls btw.
For those wondering about noise levels, full size 12 gauge shells average 160 decibels, and mini shells are near 150. That's not a big difference, and both are deafening. If you have a muzzle break, the sound impact will be worse. One shot of either will put you past the recommended daily limit for any noise that loud. It will still cause damage to your hearing, but you may recover in a few hours. 2 or more shots from either will cause irreversible hearing loss.
Also, trying to cycle these in my KSG is fine for range days, as long as I keep it level with the ground. If I rotate the shotgun in any way, or drop or elevate the barrel while cycling, the mini shells rotate out of alignment when the lifter engages the shells to carry them to the chamber. They can then become jammed in such a way that it takes a bit of time and dexterity to clear the jam. I must imagine this is something that happens with quite a few shotgun models. When it comes to home defense, use what's recommended by the manufacturer of your particular shotgun.
Thanks for the valuable insight, Chris, regarding both the mini shells and pump-action shotguns, in general ("more user-induced error than with any other firearm").
Thank you, Lucky Gunner, your shipping truly has been lightning fast for me!
And yes!, mini-shells for the semi-auto shotgun would be too cool for skool :)
As always, a quality presentation Chris. You're question "Why give up some effectiveness of the one or two rounds just to get more ammo" perfectly sums up the argument against mini shells. More is not always better.
Said it before, but you folks do really great informative videos. Thanks for the good data and video, and the excellently clear photos. Great to be able to see the details on the topics you cover. Thanks for the video!
I'd like to see some full diameter (as opposed to sabot or sub caliber) expanding slugs for the mini shells. Something that starts at around 70 caliber and ends at around 90 to 100 caliber would be pretty phenomenal. This could be achieved with even a basic hollow point design and some soft lead and you'd be able to use soft lead because it's not rifled or high pressure and in most ammo the slug itself might not even touch the barrel.
A Lehigh defense maximum expansion type slug would be great.
The Defender Tactical adaptor allows you to shoot mini shells 2 3/4 and 3 inch mixed interchangeably in the magazine and does not need to be removed. It is $25 and comes with a free new slick red magazine follower. I have one in my old standard 5 shot Mossberg 500 and it holds 8 of the mini shells and I like it.
I see what you guys at Lucky Gunner did there.
A video on fun size shot shells on Halloween when we hand out fun size candy!
What's so fun about getting *less* candy?
@@LuckyGunner as a fat guy, I've never seen those little candy bars as fun. Just took me more work to get what I want. 😁 😁
My daughter (when young) asked, "Why do they call it fun sized, if you get less candy?" I replied "because choking size isn't very marketable."
My daughter repeated what I said at school. The following parent/teacher conference was different.
@@LuckyGunner When I was younger every neighborhood kid knew where they handed out the full size 🍫
One year a guy wanted to NF & chill W GF and gave us 1/2 a bowl of full size 🍫 and shut off the lights.
✌️
I'm running them all the time in my self defense shotty with the Opsol miniclip 2.0. Very pleased. 9 in the mag, 1 in the pipe and 5 on the side. Vortex Venom red dot plus the zero recoil makes it ridiculously fast and easy to shoot accurately.
I would run the model S with a "party pack". Start off with a couple of full size shotgun shells and then finish the mini shells. Thus giving you the benefit of the full power rounds with the added capacity for the mini shells if needed. ( so essentially load 4 to 6 mini shells followed by two to three full size shells.)
AMEN!
Interesting.
I would rather load the entire tube with minis, and keep full size shells on the gun for reloads, since minis don’t fit well in side saddles or stock saddles.
I wouldn't do mixed loadings of different sized shells on a home defense shotgun, it sounds like a good way to end up with a jam when you really don't want one.
That top down shot at 50 seconds in is AWESOME.
Clear, logical and evidence-based as always.
Shotguns kept showing on my feed lately and I love it. This is definitely the thinking man's weapon, the options one have for different situations.
The Winchester 1300 and their clones work perfectly with mini shells. My Defender holds 12+1 minis, or 7 regular 2 3/4
I’ve heard this also ,I’m going to check that out all I own are winchesters…
FINALLY! I've been waiting years to find a gel test on the over all penetration on the Federal shorty 1oz Slug (and the others)! Now for once I need to buy from you guys! Every time, I choose a round from your other tests you were out. Federal HST 9mm is my defense round thanks to your tests. It's crazy that it took this many years to get someone to measure the full penetration given the capacity benefit of these shells... especially with the KSG being apparently so reliable with them, which is what I have. THANK YOU!
I would totally consider #4 buck to be acceptable for self defense.
Yeah, they're not quite as devastating as other standard loadings available, but for self defense, they're plenty capable of performing & delivering, moreso than any common handgun cartridges.
I personally would love to see manufacturers develop some lighter weight, higher velocity, mini slugs. Something that could even accomplish some fragmentation or wide expansion to help avoid the over penetration concerns.
Great video, thanks for sharing.
As long as the attacker has some rational thought left, they usually decide pretty quickly that getting shot sucks.
#4 buck may not have certain characteristics of 00 or whatever; It’s always seemed to perform well, nothing I’d want oriented at me.
@@bwofficial1776 Problem is in these scenarios what I'd like to call the "methhead factor"
Sometimes your adversary is on so many layers of messed up that they won't stop until the moment they drop cold.
I can understand why some are nervous to spring for less with that on the table
The penetration numbers seem a bit dubious though. If you're shooting a skinny guy in a t-shirt coming at you with a knife 8-12 inches is probably fine, but if it's a 300 pounder wearing a heavy winter coat with a sweater underneath it and he's shooting back at you you'll probably want a bit more.
@@elmateo77Yep, the thing about ballistic gelatin is that it isn’t a 1:1 analogue to flesh. You get more penetration in gel (particularly the clear synthetic that is often used because it’s good for camera work). The figure that I’ve seen is that real world penetration is roughly 2/3 what you get in gel. That’s how the FBI came up with 12 to 18 inches *in gel*.
I’ve worked 2 shotgun shootings that I can think of off hand. I’m not even counting the guy who stuck a double barrel 12 gauge in his mouth and pulled both triggers. Both were shots fired by officers at violent felons. One was a 3” slug through the heart. Very effective. One was a 2 3/4” reduced recoil 8 pellet 00 Buck that hit the perp broadside. All 8 pellets hit him in the shoulder from about 7 yards. He walked to the ambulance. I don’t own a shotgun for anything other than bird and squirrel hunting. I can’t think of any self defense situation real or imagined where I’d reach for a shotgun over a rifle. For the first 10 years or so of my 23 years in policing shotguns were all we had other than pistols. If I did though I most certainly would not pick a mini shell, or a reduced “recoil” aka reduced performance, shell.
As usual, great content! I heartily agree that 00FC is the proper load in nearly all SD circumstances for the home howitzer; But, those mini-shells are starting to look less like just range-fun and I'll be curious to see how more loads develop.
Kel-Tec KSG 25 will hold 41 mini-shells (20 in each tube, 1 chambered)
I learned from experience that extra capacity in home defense is sometime essential to survival. I have been in several situations with my Mossberg 590s loaded with minis that the process of loading would have jeopardize my life. With minis I had extra ammo that surprise armed intruders. So, I would never belittle anything that will give that extra edge.
wtf where do you live that you've had 'several' situations where you needed extra ammo to deal with armed intruders? 😅
@@shoryukenpower I suspect Fantasy Land.
I found with #4 buckshot that you really can't use "low recoil" loads since the pellets are light enough that you need increased velocity to have enough momentum to penetrate sufficiently deep. Gel tests using full powered loads with an advertised velocity of 1325+ (of course, real performance will be different) seem to hit barely above 12" of ballistic gel penetration, so anything below that will definitely have issues.
Of course, barely penetrating to 12" is probably ideal if you're playing brinkmanship to have enough penetration to be effective but not so much penetration that there's a lot of danger of collateral damage, hence why I use #4 Buck, but mine is the Hornady Varmint Express #4 buck load with the Versatite wad to keep a nice tight pattern while also penetrating deep enough.
#1/#2 BUCK slightly reduced payloads = good velocities and recoil, enough pellets of nice size.
Perfectly ok for short distance thug control in house or around the house.
@@HAYAOLEONE #1 buck, even low recoil, tends to penetrate more than full powered #4 buckshot.
@@gameragodzilla Yes. No prob.
@@HAYAOLEONE Yeah, and if you want a little more penetration or you require low recoil loads, that's not a bad choice. But #4 buck at full power speeds does provide the absolute best penetration to collateral damage standard.
Number one buckshot has 12-16 pellets that will penetrate over 12 inches,
Double OO buckshot has 8-9 pellets that will penetrate over 12 inches.
I remember seeing these mini-shells coming out of Italy back about 8 yrs ago if I remember. They looked interesting but could not get them as they sold out quickly. I think they would work fine for home self defense under 15yrds especiially if your spouse had to fire. Great video.
We tested those things years ago in many different shotguns. Two observarions. First they are ballistically deadly for defense. They only have a few less pellets at the same, if not slightly higher velocity than 2 3/4 in. Second (and THE issue in the end) was serious reliability problems. They cycled and fired flawlessly in only 2 guns as I recall. That ended any further testing or consideration.. I believe there is still potential here, but it will take manufacturers to just design new guns strictly for this impressive ammo.
Reliability issues are a Deal Breaker, I wouldn't trust these cutsie , little shells with my life.
A Defender Tactical lifter and adaptor and follower set solves the reliability problem in Mossberg shotguns including the Maverick 88 . A simple easy to install kit. Yeah it is $50 for the complete set. Allows a total mix of 1 3/4 2 3/4 and 3 inch shells and also keep the loading slot open for rapid loading. Worth every penny in my opinion. It is drop in, with no modifications to install or remove. Sure you have to have sense enough to disassemble the shotgun, but it is easy to do as Mossberg makes easy to work on shotguns. Two powerful magnets on each side of the aluminum receiver can speed up the re-assembly process of keeping the shell stop and interrupter bars in place. You don't have to have them, it just makes it quicker.
Federal is fast becoming my favorite shotgun ammunition. My wife just bought a 10 pack of the #4 shorty shotshells. Pretty neat things these are. I'm surprised they're relatively new when, they should've been a thing for some time now.
I picked up a KSG 12 used awhile back, further than I'd like to admit, and haven't even had a chance to give it a go. I've always wondered how well these mini shells did. The slugs were what really got my attention though. This info is leading me more towards that end of the spectrum for it.
Same curious how well mini shell works in ksg 12
I can fit 11 in each tube, so in total 22 mini boys
@@jerrymandarren does it function well?
@@mrguiltyfool I've got a KSG 12 as well, they feed very well and no adapter is needed.
@@jerrymandarren Yeah, i've seen vids of it happening, just wondered how effective they were. This is making me really want to get some again!
The content is good (yay!), but I also want to salute the production values: lighting, audio, camera work, and editing!
If someone would develop something like a modernized Techno Arms MAG-7 that would make mini shells a worthwhile option.
I remember years ago there was a UA-camr who was making a semi auto pistol that uses mini shells but he was also making machine guns so I think he went to prison before he could finish the project
@@shoelessbandit1581 what was his name
@@ryp3635 I want to say Allen hart. His videos as far as I could tell disappeared years ago. Don't think the pistol would've worked as it was a straight blowback but his machine guns certainly did and they weren't legal in the slightest
Yes, they did it with Shockwave, I've been waiting for that. Glad you did velocity test with both-THANKS!
Sold me off of them! I trust what i have and don’t need to add any of those issues. Thank you, Mr Baker!
If you have a 5-6 shell capacity tube then having two mini-shells instead of one full sized shell as you very last shot could be a good idea. If you're in a self defence situation where you get to the end of your tube then one extra chance to make a hit may be worth the decreased impact and reliability.
Very well documented and illustrated. Your descriptions and evaluations were clear and useful. Great video Chris!
I really think Home defense rounds should also do a "dry wall test" for apartments.
a 1' square. dry wall, fiber glass, drywall, and piece of plywood on the far side to indicate excessive force.
I agree on your many points. I also would love to see the FC type wad to possibly shrink the pattern. I will add this...I think the niche is the mini shells for the shockwave style platforms. Especially for house distances when someone is trying to make forced entry. Much lower recoil and the BG is getting peppered with 6-15 pellets with each shot. Never heard of many people continuing to cause harm after that.
Dude claim your prize...
My grandson and son in law love them at the range. Shooting w/o flinching is important for novice shotgunners! I do not think any malefactor is going to be taunting you about your 'weak' Minis after he takes a round in his chest. The challenge of finding them at stores and gunshows must mean something about the popularity.
that's what i'm trying to figure out. I wouldn't want to take these "weak" minis to the chest at any range lol
Good video with great info. While I like the idea of adding capacity to shotguns, at the end of the day (as you stated) I can’t fathom using more than 2-5 shells in a home protection situation. Master your patterns in 5-20 yards and that works for 99% of worst case scenarios you’re in. Again, solid vid.
….multiple attackers
@@ionbusman2086 My mossberg maverick hold 8 full size rounds, that should be plenty for dealing with 3-4 people when using 12 gauge buckshot at close range. If you're expecting more than that I'd say get an AR15 instead.
Most people want them for the less chance of over penetration and recoil
@@skubasteveskilla3316 according to the college lecture the yt scrubbed [it was about a surgeon who had 30+ years treating gunshot wounds.
30+ min presentation -short version YOU WANT WAS MUTCH PENITRATION AS YOU CAN gET
"Raven Modular Semi-Auto Rifles - Law Enforcement Vital Anatomy " ignore the lung and hips.
that narrow place is where you it. BONE ect stands in your wau
I love your honesty
I'm not sure what you are looking for in this video. You say you don't want over penetration but you complain that the mini shells are not penetrating enough. The worst Buckshot you showed were the six pellets that split in half, and that's still the same as being shot with a 22 caliber 12 times!! I would say that that's absolutely perfect for home defense without over penetration and definitely stopping someone! The spread of the shot is exactly what you want because under high stress you're aiming isn't going to be that perfect. You need to rethink this a little I believe. Thanks for the video 590s sounds great I'll wait for the price to come down I hope
yep...been saying this for a while....12 to 15 22 rounds hitting you at 1100 fps....that sounds like enough.
I love your videos haha I bought thease minis after I got my shotgun. once I watched all of your shotgun videos I found the one I wanted upgraded it and have been happy as hell with all I can do with it. I was a single shot shot gun guy for a long time before I went with a pump and I love it! Another great video!
I have no interest in Mini Shogun shells or a shotgun with a birdhead grip, but I'm always curious what Chris has to say. I thoroughly enjoy his presentation style and have learned a great deal watching this channel.
could you imagine a purpose built semiauto that runs off minishells the range toy of the century
I’m not one to use handloads for self defense but this seems like something a home reloader can solve. I just got my first press. I haven’t even set it up. I don’t think it’ll do shotgun ammo but I’d be really interested in experimenting with getting the right mini buckshot load.
I suppose that a mini shell in a 12 gauge is hitting with something like the power of a 28 gauge and I certainly wouldn't like to be shot with a 28!
How do the shortys compare to 410 loads?
Appreciate your thorough, clear & reliable testing of these new products. Comments COULD be valuable to manufacturers.
_"Bullets put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns rip bloody chunks of people off and throw them on the floor."_ - Clint Smith
_"Mini shotgun shells mostly put multiple holes in people all at once."_ - Lucky Gunner
_"Good enough? You be the judge."_ Paul Harrell
Slightly misquoted, but yes. The GOAT has it right on 12ga.
Thanks Chris for your work on these videos. Another thing viewers should keep in mind with respect to shotguns is that we are still legally/civilly responsible for all those projectiles going out the end of the barrel. Just another thing to consider when evaluating ammunition and strategies in terms of personal protection and home defense.
People who complain about things like this not being good for self defense has never been shot by any type of firearm.
Well it's not going to be a one shot stop. Number four often fails to break ribs or consistently get past them.
Yep. I use them. I have a Kel Tec KS-7. Using the mini shells it holds 11+1 and runs them just fine with no mods.
There's an Austin Powers/Mini Me joke in there somewhere
Oh lord that slug was impressive
I would love to see a 7/8 or 3/4 ounce slug in the 12 gauge mini shells. One ounce slugs are over kill for homo sapiens.
Edit: I'd be marginally ok with shooting #4 buck for self defense, but would rather a full column of #1 instead of a mixed load. Still not convinced that the Federal split shot is anything more than a gimmick. A flite control wad #1 buck load would be outstanding.
Same
Agree with you, I would like a #1 buck minishell. I guess it would get about 8 pellets. I think they do the mix to take advantage of the space available between the pellets
Always a good listen, Chris. Thanks for putting in the time with these.
At 15 yards, in a crisis situation, I think I like a spread of 15 inches. You look at it as a negative because some pellets are missing the target, and the danger that brings to others. That logic only holds true if you assume you are hitting center mass every shot. I choose to look at it the opposite way - a 15 inch spread allows me to hit wide or actually miss (slightly) the entire torso with my point of aim, and still hit my target. Great video - love the flow.
It might be the spread all the boomers promise at the store?
That is a very safe and well thought out choice.
So maybe train to not miss, rather than sending lead downrange, unaccounted for.
@@nates9536 training is paramount. However, when it comes to scatter guns, that spread is beneficial in a close quarter, hectic, self defense, scenario. If the perpetrator is attacking, that spread will increase your likelihood of success in my opinion.
My home, self defense weapon of choice is my CZ Scorpion I’m 9mm. The folding stock is useful in tight quarters while the carbine is accurate out to 125 yards.
@@nates9536 THANK YOU. I never thought of training NOT to miss - I've been training all wrong. Seriously though, a well trained shooter, at home, oh dark thirty snapped out of a deep sleep, multiple moving targets - you're saying it's a better practice to assume you'll always hit square, vs assuming you might hit square, but also you might barely hit or barely miss? And if I get a clear, unrushed shot, I'll hit center mass with my 15 inch group and all the pellets will be in that sucker's chest or upper arms - just spread out a bit more. Those triple aught buck pellets are just over 9 mm in diameter, weigh about 70 grains each, and are traveling at 9mm +P velocities. As Bill Burr's joke goes - You want the spreeeaaaad."
The damage on the left-hand side of the ballistic gel certainly looks impressive. I wonder how many folks would still be standing after that shock.
Viable, yes. Ideal, probably not.
I run these minis in a double barrel coach gun for reduced recoil and it makes the gun tolerable to shoot lol. Great video
I apreciated your cut n dry educational manner, since the groupie style hardliner vids give me agitta. Thanks for the leason.
This is exactly the information I was looking for. Thank you. Hopefully ammo manufacturers will tweak designs to improve. I also appreciate that I'm not the only one to wish for a semi auto designed around these mini shells. That would be fun.
Excellent assessment and presentation. I also appreciate Chris Baker's modulated speaking voice, the way he gets right to the subject with no crazy death metal or syrupy piano music.
On the subject of mini-hells....
Another way of looking at it: if it takes two mini-shotshells to deliver the same amount of lead on target, you've not actually increased your ammo capacity.
You've only doubled the physical actions required to deliver the lead...and in turn doubled the amount of time and opportunity for an operator induced malfunction.
I love the idea of loading a DP-12 filled with this. Perfect home defense. Like, 2x12 shells with buckshot.
A decent video that leaves out some considerations. For Buck, you didn’t pattern the 20” barrel with full Accu-choke.
In addition, shotgun reloaders have been creating 1.75” mini’s that perform better than any factory mini load.
For slugs, the simple 7/8th oz Lee Drive Key slugs are lighter in recoil than that factory slug, and can be loaded to penetrate less within dwellings than those typical 1 oz Fosters.
The Russian slug molds that have segmented pedals are devastating, and fragment better than those factory fosters.
You can load nine 0 Buck in minis as well. You can also go up to your own 2 inch shells, which is an extra 1/4th inch longer than the 1.75” factory Minis. This may reduce the capacity by a single shell but opens up your options exponentially.
Most of us know that the advertised length of any shell is before it’s crimped. Thus, a 3” is 2.75”, and a 2.75” measures at 2.5”.
Loading for shotgun is quite simple. Any reloader can create a better Mini than those factory offerings, then go with the 20 inch model with a tighter constriction Accu-choke for Buck loads.
You can also go with the 18.5” barrel 590s Shockwave that has a capacity of 9+1 with Minis. The 14.375” barrel Shockwave is 8+1 with Mini shells. As we know, both of those turn corners better within a dwelling, with the new ability of loading to the capacity of a standard full size shotgun.
Load your own to a 2 in length, drop the magazine count by a shell, and your ammo choice is far greater than the factory offerings. If you want better penetration, there’s more hull volume there for powder. If you want a lower recoil slug, that fragments with pedals, that option is there as well for the shotgun reloader.
I appreciate your channel. This one skipped over some of the considerations above. I believe that Mossberg has a winner here. It addresses the issue of over penetration within dwellings, while leaving open the option to load hotter loads, or one’s own reloads, that out perform the factory offerings.
Thanks Big Time for that information. I was wondering about chokes, but your point about loading 2” Shells also seems to be a very effective solution. I believe I prefer yours. Think the ammo companies would consider that type of load? Thanks again.
The minishells still deliver the same punch as three 9mm's being fired at once. Add that to the fact that you can fit 12 of them in the tube of a Mossberg 500 AT with only a 18.5" barrel, and you have 12+1 of HD fun.
Something to think about with regards to the 590S and other solutions for minishells.
Without getting too deep into the forces exerted on a minishell by a home defender while racking and moving, nor on how you may be racking the shotgun in many different orientations, there is a simple reality that needs to be addressed.
A 2.75" shotgun shell typically loads into a 3" long receiver opening. There is little wiggle room for the shell to move, though if you rack back with the ejection port down, the shell can fall out. Basically, there is about a quarter inch of wiggle room in probably every shotgun made for decades (of course, not the magnum 3.5" guns).
When any shotgun, including the 590S, loads a 1.5" minishell, that wiggle room goes from .25" to about 1.5". In that space, while racking (again, under duress, different orientations), a minishell can flip, fall out or partially fall out of the ejection port, or be out of alignment as the bolt is run home.
I am not a firearms expert, but I am not aware of any firearm that allows the rounds the opportunity to rattle around like this during the feeding process. Again, to be clear, I am talking about under duress, in real, stressful and dynamic scenarios. At the range, firing mostly at level or perhaps 45 degrees up or down, the 1.5" of wiggle room is not usually an issue.
Only the OPSol Flex Adapter "adapts" the 3" long receiver opening to a 1.6" or so opening, taking up the excess space.
In short, a minishell needs a mini-receiver.
If I were to build a minishell dedicated shotgun, the receiver would only allow roughly a 1/4" of wiggle space, like full length shotguns.
Yep definitely agree with that thought process. They seem reliable but it’s possible to have malfunctions especially under duress.
Apparently mossberg is working on some prototype short receiver shotguns made specifically to use short shells Only. That would be interesting to see
@@timg7627 Geez, if Mossberg is working on a mini receiver design, are they basically saying the 590S is flawed?
@@guillermomaguire5394 no I don’t think that is what they’re saying at all.
More so pushing the envelope for smaller shorter lighter speciality use firearms
Flawlessly functioning mini-shell Winchester 1300 gang checking in! No silly adapters needed here.
Aguila makes mini-slugs too btw.
In my experience the Browning A5 does pretty good with minis. The long recoil seems to handle ejection much better and feeding pretty well.
Is it kinda sketchy tho?
Provided your firearm can cycle them and/or the adapter works they are viable. 10 mini slugs in a 2 3/4 16 inch tube pump...Or a Shockwave? A choke should be strongly considered for Buckshot...
Living in a town home, Mini slugs are perfect. Saves your ears in an indoor environment and no too much worry about over penetration.
One of my home defense guns is a Mossberg shockwave loaded with federal flight control buckshot. These minis/shortys are a fun range toy especially for new shooters.
These work great in my S&W M&P-12 . 23 rounds make it an awesome Home defense Weapon.
Always a good review, only one point of disagreement. Shorty slugs have the combination of power and reduced recoil that I can accurately shoot them with a pistol grip shotgun over and over. Can't speak for the other shorty shells but the slugs are fantastic!
I’ve used mini shells in my Kel-Tec KS7. Never had any feed issues
They feed perfectly in my 45yr old Remington 2-3/4in 870 Wingmaster, but did not run well in a friends 3in 870 Magnum Express. The longest possible straight-line engagement distance inside my house is about 20~25ft.
Excellent presentation, thank you
I really want to see a serbu super shorty or a semi-auto of a similar length with mini shels
Great Critique. Thanks LGA
My nephew's 12 GAUGE Mossberg Maverick 88 pistol grip.. Has been the staff around the wicked
I bought a pile of them during the "summer of love". They were available when regular rounds weren't. So that was an advantage. And, under those specific circumstances, the added capacity wasn't a bad thing. Still have my 500 loaded 9+1 with the Shorty slugs. I have the OPSol miniclip installed as well.