The weird thing is that the INTP is the Judger and the INTJ is the perceiver but to the world they are seeing their secondary function more often than not.
I have a daughter intp and a son intj. I love the fact that both of them are accepting of all personalities without judgement. I have learned so much from them as an esfj. I have also learned to accept a lot of physical mess.😂
INTP vs. INTJ. INTP Here. Similarities: detached, potentially socially awkward, blunt, analytical Differences: quite a bit. INTPs are more depth-oriented. INTJs are more decisive and utility focused. INTPs really don't feel the need to see something through unless they truly care about it to their core. INTJs are always driving to Ni via Se. I think INTJs are a bit softer oddly enough, but INTPs are much more social and bubbly. That's a bit counter-intuitive because INTJs have Fi third and INTPs have Fe fourth. I've never really met an INTJs that's as social as me. INTJs are extremely stubborn compared to INTPs. I know they say that they are open, but not really. In fact, with Te being "utility-focused", they tend to put people in boxes despite saying they are open to new information. They really are not though. Te wants to label and move on. And Ni wants a set path. People can grow beyond what you perceive them, and I have witnessed INTJs being the worst at judging people in this regard. I think Ne always sees potential, so even though Ti is judging, we are open to what else is possibly there with someone. INTPs are more patient.
INTJ here. Great analyzes. I agree. Regarding people i'm really fast to put them into boxes so i don't have to continue thinking about them. MBTI really expanded the number of boxes though and is a great tool for understanding motivation of people. But since we're low on Fe we don't feel the need to understand the complexity of every human that much. It's enough for me to use my pattern recognition on everyone filtering out all non-valuable information and people, which is about 98% of information and 80% of people. Unfortunately since i don't have this drive for connection (Fe) as Michael has put it beautifully, i'm fast of being not interested anymore in somebody if he doesn't fit my Fi. So, speaking for myself, i'm really fast in judging people useless or illogical. This is probably the reason why i don't have many friends too. I really wish I would be more motivated in using Fe and in my need for connection. My Fi would love to be more lovable. But unfortunately i can't fake that without becoming unauthentic. The openness I would consider INTJs have more of is more driven towards new information. Although we always sound very confident about anything with our Te, we are really testing our logic all the time with the tribe and see if it holds up. You could put a question-mark at every sentence we're saying since we're waiting eagerly for someone to prove us wrong, in a mannered way hopefully and increase our knowledge this way. The certainty we're usually talking with is due to eliminating all other variables for counter-arguing our logic i.e. through calling us out on not having done enough research or maybe even on a Fe based level of having too little self-esteem. The only thing in question should be the logic and its usefulness, not the way we got to the conclusion or the way we present it.
As an INTJ I’ve always looked at the difference between me and my INTP friends is deductive thinking versus inductive thinking. As INTPs look at outcomes and seek to determine the meaning of why things are important where as an INTJ I find myself breaking things down to see how a fact can propagate and even be utilized for future plans. Almost to say that INTPs are seemingly trying to build up a Ti understanding as their preparation so that they can improvise in the moment. But INTJs kinda work as structuralists and try to use the information now to prepare for all outcomes so that when the future scenario does happen they can use their mental energy to continue looking forward as the contingency plans cover their backs in the present, just some thoughts
"How to describe Ni..." As an INTJ, that is one of the hardest things to explain coz it's so automatic and subconscious, I can't effectively visualize, let alone explain, how it works. 😂
I wouldn’t try to explain it because it’s not a real function of consciousness. It’s just a little label made up by some psychologists (psychology is not a science) to model their observations. I would try to explain what are the underlying functions of consciousness, character traits and values that lead an observer to label a person ‘Ni’.
INTJ here. This is very insightful. I had an argument with an INTP and he was going about making random points. He just wants to be right always, despite his "final conclusion" being so problematic. Love Michael's INTJ stare. I see him in me, haha.
Are you projecting that INTP onto all INTPs in order to try to degrade INTPs as inferior to INTJs or are you talking about an isolated instance? If the instance is isolated I don't see the reason why you would want to share it, what does it prove? Looks like superiority complex to me.
Thanks for this video. I’ve always known I was INTJ but sometimes I feel I don’t fit the mold. After this I’m definitely INTJ. It’s like walking around in my own reality, totally detached from everyone else’s and feeling that really strongly. I’ve been trying so hard to understand Si and now I see what I lack! I’m not attached to experiences. Si users are collecting concrete experiences, while demon Si is living in one giant experience and doesn’t realize it.
I went on a cruise with an INTJ a few years ago. After about three days he suddenly realised he was on a ship. Like it only dawned on him then, as if he was in his own head for the first few days.
@@JoyceMeng22 No, you. You've really been hitting out of the park lately. Another suggestion, if you've not done it already: people talking about being the "wrong" gender for their type, such as male INFP, ENFP, ENFJ types and female INTJ, INTP, ISTJ and so on, what their experieences have been like not being what people expect of their gender and what their coping mechanisms have been.
It’s very difficult to describe the metaphysical (Ni/Ne) clearly in physical words. Although the three of you did an excellent job trying to bring the invisible into the visible reality, it’s ironic that the types who are the most sensitive to the metaphysical have the hardest time describing it physically.
I [INTP] had a talk with a friend [ENFJ] once, which came down to emotions/feelings and sharing them. I think I said something about a missing emotional vocabulary or something, anyhow, we tried to put the physical feeling of an emotion into words, which both of us didn't really succeed at :)
@@JoyceMeng22 It sure is. Sometimes, I find it more useful to draw or paint an abstract concept than it is to write or speak about it. For example, I recently drew a picture inspired by Defender, one of my favorite Atari 2600 video games. Rather than just draw an almost literal depiction of what you see on the TV screen, I drew it from a different perspective. There's a little girl floating in the air as she's being tractor beamed up to a lander ship while the Defender ship (that you control if you play the game) is rising up from behind the building that she was running toward to shoot the lander ship and save the girl. To me, it symbolizes that hard to describe sort of anticipatory feeling (both of possible satisfaction if you succeed while simultaneously of dread of possible failure if you miss) when you are trying to rescue a 'humanoid' as the game manual calls them. At the same time, it also shows what I imagine to be the humanoid's perspective (since the point of view in the picture is from directly behind her) of the terror of being captured. Much easier to draw all of that than to try to describe it, yet it's the aspect of the game that sets it apart from most side-scrolling ship flying shooter games.
I think Te-Fi interacts when you are kind with people not to please them, but because either they are important to you, or it can be useful to have them appreciate you
14:35 that is so true !, my INTP friend always keeps jumping from point to point and never arriving at a conclusion to the topic we were talking about. before i learned about typology this behavior used to frustrate me to the point of me feeling like my INTP friend is not really listening, but then i understood its just Ne dropping ideas with Ti facts and that means the INTP is really enjoying the debate or topic.
Really abstract video. Glad there was an INFJ present, to explain some of these concepts! INTPs are very interesting. I don't know many in the real world myself and the fact they have completely different cognitive functions, to INTJs like myself, make them difficult to understand. I think I understand INTPs better after this episode. Great video!
I'm happy you enjoyed it! Yeah I find it fascinating to compare INTJs and INTPs as they share the same letters but use completely different functions. Thanks for tuning in, Ma Mu. :)
Mike is such a great example of standard INTJ (NiTe). I'm really glad You guys did this video. I've been looking for a good example for my internal database haha :)
INTJ here. Ni is a very tricky function to describe. Personally, it feels like floating in deep space and looking out at an abstract framework of the universe, but that reality is an intuitive construction of your own that you have been building all your life automatically. As new information comes in it shifts in shape, sort of like updating your working theory of how things "should" and thus "will" work. My Te takes the predictions of the future that arise from the Ni intuitions and linearly reasons out the events that would have to take place to get to them. When you pair the Ni and Te, it is effectively like seeing many timelines all at once. It get's exhausting sometimes because you can get so lost in your head for hours. I have to ground myself in Se by doing physical activity and practicing mindfulness, so that I don't recede into my mind so much that it affects my ability to be present. Our comfort comes in seeing a grand timeline/framework (what some other INTJs I know told me), but its quite impossible; the chase for a better intuitive model is the story of our lives. God, would I love to be able to see the beginning and end of time.
Cool! I find myself thinking about my Ni as a body of water… new information kind of drips into a large pool. And wherever it falls, it makes that bit of the pool turbulent until that new information drop integrates with the rest of the ocean. It’s hard to talk about without sounding crazy 😝
I am always fascinated to hear other INTJs describe this because I don't feel special at all. I just see it as natural cause and effect... I don't understand why other people can't see that sitting a cup near the edge of the table makes it more likely to fall or that swinging stuff around a ceiling fan is asking for trouble... It's just obvious what would happen. It's just a set of math formulas... You just find what you'd expect on the other side of the equals sign. I take in info and refine the equation to make more predictions and so on. That's just life to me. Basically everything is math.
My partner is INTP. He often says people’s opinions are wrong and I’m like you cannot have a wrong opinion, it’s an individual viewpoint 😂 to prove he’s wrong i have to find sources that came from other human beings with letters after their names Totally relate to needing notes. It’s like if you don’t prepare you feel like you have your one chance to talk and you just vomit out the words and the sentences come out all jumbled so having notes keeps it all linear
Very ingesting video, especially for an INTP female whom is married to an INTJ male. I with my Ti dominant function am in constant search for meaning and in constant search for truth and constantly be figuring ways for solving problems; whilst my INTJ hubby is always constant trying to build systems and making things better, as well as engaging in some sort of effective strategic plan.
INTP vs INTJ in collecting data: INTP (According to Tim): Fitting things into that chandelier with fine efforts. INTJ (Me, as I picture it): Using five filters: Very useful, useful, Might be useful, Not useful, and Delete. Towards that subjective/ personal goal.
Wow, this was an incredibly insightful discussion. Hearing some examples of how Tim and Michael utilize their respective cognitive functions was very helpful in refining my understanding of the concepts. I definitely resonated with much of Tim's descriptions. The Ne-Si dynamic in particular felt very relatable, so I think I'm on the right track. Having taken a few tests and more importantly trying to determine my own functions, INTP seems to be the best fit for me so far. Thanks for the video!
Joyce is so great at explaining the cognitive functions, I am so glad for her understanding! 💙 As for analogies, I like to compare Ni to dreaming while you are awake, and Ti to coding. Ni is like a dream, the symbols and patterns of our individual subconscious that present themselves in a unique context. The Ni user is more or less aware that he's/she's dreaming and knows that the dream is connected to something he/she experienced in the real world / in another context, while Se is being awake and not remembering that you were dreaming. (you can spin the analogy further, like: Te (seen as an isolated function) would try to control the dream (via lucid dreaming etc.), Ne would then create his own unique dream. ) Ti is like coding meaning that each individual has its own individual framework (a language, like Java, C++, Python,...), and while knowing that the code has to work in the end, Ti builds its way up from the bottom, declaring variables, building the different blocks etc. until it gets to the end result. And because the code works, it is therefore correct and logical. Changing the code with new information is difficult, because you may need to change each block of code. I hope it makes any sense. It's just what came to my mind.
INTPs are like fly paper. We pick up so much trivia and odd facts with our Si child. Our Ne parent then plays with it and looks for patterns in our Ti framework where it can apply the knowledge for practical or impractical application. It makes it easy to flow with interviews even with unforeseen questions as we have so many facts, opinions and half digested insights that if we can't give you a confident answer we can usually either hit the topic at a tangent or give you some even better questions you should be asking about the topic.
Hey Roger! I massively appreciate the comments you leave on my videos, they are very insightful. If you ever want to participate in a video, you are free to join. :) Although I understand if you are too shy or are uncomfortable on camera for any reason. If you are interested, feel free to send me an email at joycemeng22@gmail.com!
@@JoyceMeng22 I love the offer, but I don't have video options on my computer. I'm always trying to understand both myself and others better to be more effective a communicator. I am watching a ton of your videos right now. Particularly those related to INTPs and my gf's ISFP type. We listen as we do puzzles.
It's so funny watching cognitive function videos featuring an INTP as an INTP because everyone "oohs and ahhs" Ti and Ne, but to me a whole NT conversation is normal. :-D
So true! You mentioned finding it normal, so I'm wondering if you're an NT too. =] They actually had a conversation right after filming the episode and it was the most NT thing ever. Gotta love 'em.
I wonder if they'd agree on this RE: The Ship: As an example learning experience, the INTP and the INTJ are there to do two different things: INTP: Look at all this info! I can find out all kinds of things about a bunch of different novel items here, including a ship! (Like tim said, the ropes, knots, navigation instruments, etc INTJ: Look at all this info! I can find out all kinds of things about this ship! Including all the items they use to help it "ship" better! (As Michael talks about, always "on topic" and the data is silo'd so he can apply it next time he needs to know about a ship like this) The difference would be that INTPs are cataloging things into the smallest pieces individually, based on that one item's impact on reality. INTJs are cataloging things into their usability/final "output" on reality when combined.
Ni is a spiral. Draws everything in and mixes it to refine it from the exterior to the core. Every fact and input serves to improve the core but the outter tails are more faded out. Just like a spiraling galaxy or a drain, or even a mixing soup that gets blended and turns into a more homogenous color.
21:03 One way to visualize this situation is seeing the movie Avengers Infinity War. When Dr. Strange visualize all the possible outcomes, and realize that the heroes win in only one scenario.
INTJ here. How to describe Ni? It’s like a revolving door of knowledge and possibilities and it rotates and grabbing information from this conveyor belt of thoughts and putting it into a coherent statement that is understandable is difficult sometimes. Ni comes to me as a collection of thoughts that is not in a sentence form and we have to strengthen the Te to make sense of our cluster of thoughts like telepathy. My brain works faster than my mouth. I have had 2 specific experiences with telepathy and it was really a supernatural experience. The brain talking to another brain without words was one of the coolest experiences I’ve ever had.
such a great talk guys! Does Michael have a youtube channel? Would love to hear his perspective on more things. I'm an INTJ myself and I find it often quite hard to relate to the INTJs on youtube. But I do everything that he mentioned in the exact same way as him. Especially that "INTJ panic mode" moment at the beginning resonated with me haha. It's sometimes so frustrating to know that you _know_ something, but you can't put it into words. Or a question hits you off guard and you just can't access your knowledge right away because of the pressure that you feel in the heat of the situation :D Also it's refreshing to see an INTJ who accepts and is able to show his vulnerabilities in such a confident way.
INTPs will also go into their shadow and use a Ni function in a negative pattern as being hypercritical of what people want. So critical that they don't allow themselves to ever want anything, because other people are irresponsible about what they want.
You guys are all amazing. I think I'm about halfway through and still and not 100% because there's so many things that could go both ways for me I'll see what the rest of the video says. So glad I found this channel.
My first major was engineering and I am not an engineer. I'm a nurse haha. But, my roommate said I solved Physics problems in my sleep. I would Te while sleeping and she kept a notebook around to write down what I said. I was really not the smartest engineer while conscious, but subconsciously I was amazing. I also used to guess while using The Matrix program ( it was a program, it wasn't the movie I know, I know), but yeah I used to guess and get the right answers but have to write down how I got there and I would be able to verbally explain the spacial analysis that I could see in my head, but have no idea how to get there. My math teacher in highschool used to grade my tests backwards. I would get the more difficult questions correct even if I just guessed and couldn't do the work and I suck suck suck at Algebra. I'm all analysis Te, I hate logic Ti. You fill that in for me INTP, the INTJ and I are going to go imagine the future. -ENTJ : )
Thank you for the opportunity for the different types to share their insights & perspectives in your channel. Very fascinating! Warmed our heart to know your cup was filled too! 💗💗
I've always really struggled with the whole Te and Fe aspects of our culture. There's whole days that I'll spend alone in my apartment while my wife is out teaching at her school. I'll stay active all day and not nap or vegetate in front of the TV or anything, but at the end of the day, I don't always have something physical that I can point to and say "I did that today." Some days, I spend the time thinking about what I'm working on, what I've already finished doing and other ways of using any results from it, or what I'm going to work on next. It's fine as long as I have that product that my client is paying me for done before the deadline, which is most of the time, but there's times when people will ask "So, what did you do today?" and I'll have to give them a vague answer like 'editing', or 'writing', or 'illustrating', but I'll say that I can't show them any of it right now because of non-disclosure agreements or something like that. When all of this planning and ruminating finally seems to be enough to take physical action though, I can crank out a draft or sketch in a matter of a few minutes or hours because all of what I consider the 'real work' of figuring it out is already done. Sorry about the multiple comments, but UA-cam won't let me edit comments once I post them anymore.
INTPs are the ideas person as I've mentioned the Architects Where as the INTJs are the implementers INTPs come up with the blue prints and INTJs are the builders the engineers.
INTJs can see every future for themselves (Ni) and INTPs can see every possibility for everyone ells and the world (Ne), both being pattern detecting abillities. This is also why INTJs have willpower and INTPs have not. Lack of awareness of one's own futures lowers the sense of urgency in an INTP whereas INTJs will have seen every future that might happen to themselves they will have the damoceles sword hanging over their head if there is some bad thing or suboptimal thing looming in the future for them. INTPs will see the same damoceles sword or future successes from a mile away for the world, or the people around them, or the systems or natural world around them.
I'm INTJ, and I take "thinking" naps too! Especially after information or sensory dumps. It lets everything ferment in the subconscious, and I often get up with an insight to whatever problem I'm trying to solve. Michael Y, let me know if you ever want to do a video on this.
It's really interesting to hear about people not having Si. Does this mean that people without Si are less attracted to nostalgia and keeping objects & memories of sentimental value? Or are those things just processed and stored differently in your mind?
Hi Lala! Excellent question. For me, these things are processed and stored differently, my mind prioritizes seeing the bigger meaning of the sequence of events, but not the event itself. So I can be rather detached from Si related things unless it represents something in the bigger picture/system.
Our memory works totally different , we can't remember anything by putting effort but if something is important to us It pops up instantly in our mind .
I don't know how accurate my typing is as a supposed INTJ, but I tend to be more focused on the utility of something versus the sentimental value and I don't really like nostalgia. I sometimes hold on to items in the thought that they could still be useful, but sometimes I'll just go on a spree of throwing away things because I've seen that I probably won't ever use them. I do take a lot of pictures, but it's usually as either proof that something happened or as a reference for something rather than particularly sentimental. While I would prefer to hold onto things, I probably would get over it fairly quickly if something I don't have a use for goes away. Edit: This doesn't mean that sentimental items aren't kept and memories aren't remembered. I just this we're a bit more selective on what we choose to be sentimental over. I rarely take pictures of my self and won't regularly think of old memories, but I will be able to recall them if they are brought up.
I'm new to this, and maybe I just don't understand the specifics or nuances. I took one test that told me I was INTJ and another that said INTP. On both tests the J/P was close to 50/50. How could someone be so close to either and have completely opposite cognitive functions. Do I have a dual personality? Am I schizophrenic?
I’m gonna go ahead and say no, getting different answers is not a symptom of schizophrenia....... it’s hard to pin a personality from 60 yes or no questions, none of these tests are perfect, and intj and intp have similar temperaments.
Yes, absent minded for sure. The first recollection I have of the moment of realizing what my personality might be like was when I was something like six or seven years old. My mom would call me her 'absent minded professor'. I was always hungry for knowledge and understanding the mechanical systems around me. I'd happily pull out a volume of the encyclopedia and read entries in it for hours. Another time, I'd take something complex apart and try to figure out how it worked. Once I thought I'd learned something new to me, I'd enjoy sharing that with others. When it came to day to day living, especially interacting with other people in society though, my mind was off thinking about something I found more interesting instead. Spent a lot of time in church, doctor's waiting rooms, meetings of clubs that my grandparents or parents were in, visiting with family friends who didn't have kids to play with, etc. absorbed in my own imagination and just aware of the present enough to avoid things like walking into walls, or missing my name called and things like that. I still escape reality into the landscape of my mind today when I see no need to be focused on the present. I still forget to do things that others think I ought to remember, but those things don't seem important enough deep down to me for me to keep them in mind, so I need lots of notes and reminders around. I love the bit when Joyce called on Michael and he wasn't ready, so he panicked rather than improvising like Tim did. Especially when Michael talked about it later and explained why he panicked and how that happens so often when he finds himself in a situation that he didn't have a chance to prepare for. If I were to ever do a live video interview like this, I'd need to be talked into it first of all because I'm rather shy in front of crowds or cameras, but even if the moderator could convince me to do it, I'd need as much time as he or she could give me to research the topics of the interview or panel and to write up notes that I could have in front of me. Heck, if I could have a teleprompter, that would be even better, but I'd still probably have typed up notes handy in case that thing quit working (always most comfortable when I've prepared for what could go wrong). I just got a new (to me) Star Wars action figure in the mail that I'd never had as a kid. I researched which one of that figure to buy on several sites for days before deciding. Once I got it home, I spent several hours rearranging my display of childhood Star Wars figures to make room for him. I have all of my figures that are on display set up in different groups and organized by some theme. In this case, the figure I got was the final bounty hunter I was missing from the ones you see on the deck of Darth Vader's Venator class star destroyer in The Empire Strikes Back - Zuckuss (which Kenner mislabeled as 4-LOM on the packaging back then). I just 'had' to move things around so that there was room for Zuckuss next to 4-LOM (which Kenner mislabeled as Zuckuss) in my little display. I had to set them up that way because that's the way I think about them when I think about the movie and how I played with them as a kid. I can examine, study and admire each figure as an object in its own right when I choose to, but my first impulse is to think of what they mean to me in terms of memories, characters in the Star Wars movies and books, etc. rather than as just plastic toys. I can tell you a lot of information about these things, both as characters and as objects of interest. That's an example of how my mind works. :)
Yes you can convince an INTP they are wrong. They get mad. I got into a debate with one once. She shut down the entire thread when she realized...she wasn't wrong, per se, but not right either. I'm an INFJ, and I don't think I know an INTP or an INTJ, but I see both as highly intelligent. As an INFJ, I am drawn to logic, and have spent a lot of time analyzing logical arguments (having taken collegiate philosophical logic, I adopted it...preferring and refining Deductive logic, which I associate with Ti. Te, to me, is about changing world, Ti is about understanding it...application vs processing). I appreciate both, because they are both capable of challenging me. Like Michael, I can change my mind. But closer to Tim, it wont happen in real-time. I have to internalize it over a short period of time first. You cant just tell me I am wrong. You have to show me. My favorite INTP is Neil Peart (who died earlier this year). My favorite INTJ is fictional, one of my 2 favorite fictional characters of all time, Jean Luc Picard. My wife is an ENFJ. I am 44 years old, and consider myself too old to be starting over. But if I had to, it'd be with an INTP or INTJ. I often wish I was INTJ, rather than INFJ. They seem so much more confident and assertive . Ni is ABOUT something, as it is internalized in the mind, whereas Si users dont see perception as internalizing. Ni is detached, Si is direct. But all perception occurs in the mind. In fact, people often miss the fact that there are 2 definitions of both objective and subjective. Everything is subjective in that it occurs in the mind. It is objective when it is done without reference to preconceptions,bexisting beliefs, values, or feelings. Logic is objectively subjective (logic is a human processing tool and isnt actually found in the real world). Anything that is purely objective occurs outside of the mind (but experienced within it). We use objective to differentiate real experience from imagination (ONLY occurring within the mind). Si is about raw data, Ni is about meaning. I agree with Jung. I am almost always in my head.
my archieve 25:34 is a dark library (NE) that is hard to read books (Si data points) of but luckily i have a candle (Ti) to see and connect them together. Maybe it is dark because my fe is none existent lol.
Intp has endless stream of ideas INTJ will be the one doing any surgery on me or INFJ in some cases INFJ is usually your general diagnostic doctor or psychiatrist
I definitely want to feel like I'm providing value and hate improv. I also hate feeling like I wasn't as "perfect" as I could've been had I prepared. I was taking a public speaking class and hated the impromptu speech. I don't have Si memories to draw from. I get embarrassed and feel badly about myself because I look dumb, which is the worst for a Te user. I get angry when it's even implied that I'm stupid.
46:12 "We are at quarantine for a year, but I can do it for a month" Gosh, I relate to this man so much LMAO I am hyper-aware of how COVID has taken lifes, and is disastrously depressing for most of the population. But I actually have one of the best time in my life during quarantine, no human connection, living in my own head, recharging energy ... (luckily I don't have ill family members to take care of)
An INTP without good Fe is easily marginalized and unproductive. Our gift is in putting hard truths over popularity and when we are unable to soften those truths to a way they can be received people will just think we are being rude and leave our wisdom unheeded.
(ENFP) It was so interesting to watch this and relate to both of them, depending on the axis being discussed... I had never before considered that Si was responsible for my 'nostalgia-sickness', as I call it... or how none of my extraverted functions are in fact the 'social' ones... which is why overt 'social butterfly' descriptions of my type never feel accurate... Thank you
The point Michael was making about being on a ship. It being such a unique experience his mind was making millions of connections. I know exactly what that's like. I describe it as, the more unique the data or experience the more detached I become. It's almost a hidden driving factor in intjs I believe. Novel data, to make new formulas that if unique enough can be like a life hack. Or it can be complete nonsense and fantasy, I almost blacked out at comicon...
The most beautiful thing in that experience would be the detailed and vividness mapping of the ship within the mind where we can access it anytime whenever similar part is useful.
Having Te demon, I think Te culture is about having to prove your worth in the tribe and having to justify the things you stand for, because otherwise the tribe wouldn't understand why the things you care about are worthwhile. I think Te culture is very closely related to Capitalism. It's kind of like how no business cares about sustainable practices unless doing so would bring in money and customers (and prevent the world from burning down, but you must also prove it with numbers).
When I'm in Ni, it's like it's hard to tell the difference between concrete reality and fantasy, idealism, wishes etc. When am I dreaming and when am I fully awake? To me, they blend together. I sometimes wake up in the morning (or in the middle of the night) with a solution, or set of possible solutions to something that had vexed me the previous day(s). I can't always describe where the solution came from, but now I've got it, so I write it down quickly before I lose it. I keep a notebook by my bed just for that. I know what you mean about being an 'old soul'. Even when I was a little kid, I preferred to stay at home and draw or read a book than to go out and 'have fun' with other people. I'd find excuses for why I couldn't go to parties on the rare instances when I'd be invited. Now, my wife drags me to social events. Before I knew her, I just wouldn't go unless I could be convinced that it was something that might move me more towards a goal. Like, a party would only be something I wanted to go to on my own if I knew that I ought to go for the sake of networking with prospective clients or something like that. Even when I do try to network with people, I need to take notes if I can about who is who and why I ought to remember them and stay in touch with them. Takes a lot to bring me to the present moment for more than a short time.
I feel like almost everything they're describing as the difference between their T functions is actually describing the difference between Ne-Si axis and Ni-Se axis. :P Cognitive functions are so vague and ill defined, it's really tiring.
Intp and infj are both sanguine secondary Intp phlegmatic dominant INFJ melancholy dominant INTJ melancholy dominant phlegmatic secondary sanguine third
I see (Not visually but kinesthetically) Ti as a bookshelf. First the bookshelf is built in a coherent way, and then filled with information which should hopefully be findable in an equally coherent way. Not very web-y to me at all. :)
I was just thinking the Ne/Si and Se/Ni axis seem to be engineered and reverse engineered versions of the same concept (just some idea) - Ne/Si observes the root over time (Si) and is interested how the plant will grow out of it (Ne - creativity/growth/ "branch off") - Ni/Se experiences the plant in reality now (Se) and is interested how this type of plants root should always look like (no specific time/timeless) The direction of yin to yan/yan to yin concept seems to go in the opposite direction (darkness of underground being yin and light above the ground seems yang). They could be seen as the 2 directions of the cycle of life. The Se/Ne is the youthful phase of growth and Ni/Si is the old phase of reduction and eventually death (the latter could be worded better - no native speaker)
This is FANTASTIC. In fact, this is so great, I would love to quote you on Twitter!! Is that okay? Yeah, so I see both Si & Ni as being timeless in different ways. Si is storing timeless concrete impressions (with a specific time). While Ni is storing timeless abstract impressions (understanding a pattern with no specific time or detail).
@@JoyceMeng22 Thanks! Yeah, sure you can. Yeah I could see why Si could be timeless, in the sense that introverted functions tend to be more timeless (Ti timeless logic, Fi timeless ethics etc) but at the same time a "timeless" impression with a timestamp in some sense seems a bit odd. Just curious..but which part do you find fantastic about this? The root thing, the engineered/reverse of the same thing, the yin yang? or ..?
Yes!! All introverted functions have an element of timelessness as it's like they have a timeless abstraction in their mind they're constantly refining or revisiting in their mind. I loved everything you had to say but I wanted to quote this one in particular (Although I don't know what I should refer to you as! I might just leave it blank in quotations.) "Ne/Si observed the root over time (Si) and is interested how the plant will grow out of it (Ne - creativity/growth/ "branch off") Ni/Se experiences the plant in reality now (Se) and is interested how this type of plants root should always look like like (no specific time/timeless)"
Do Ni doms have good attention spans and memory? I space out constantly as an Ni aux and have a terrible memory. My INTJ son has a better memory, attention span, faster mind and faster learner in general. I'll see something that makes me think of something or someone else and off my mind goes lol
I wonder if my thoughts about Ni and Ne are correct now speaking about physics an an example correct me if I'm wrong. For me Ne would be collecting kinda smaller patterns related to the subject like I have a set of formulas for dynamics and I have another set of formulas for thermodynamics. For me as an Ne user I would want to find the patterns (in this case those formulas that always work) and then see with my Si if they work in experiments. It's great if those patterns have similarities (like for example the concept of energy) but I wouldn't naturally look for them. I wonder if Ni would have this desire to kinda find the common thread in all those topics in this example finding the world formula that could explain all physics.
Ni absorbs multiple patterns to distill a common principle. It is like a fractal wreath that tries to cover all the Se that it draws from. If there are similar patterns, they are absolutely gonna be merged into a single one. The similarity criteria is totally irrational, e.g. imagine grouping your phone apps by color. And the end goal is indeed to connect everything into a nice tidy web with filled out center. But the wreath fractal only scales up as it's filled. That is what it feels like to me. Thank you for your perspective of Ne. It looks like our concept of pattern is different, and yours seems to be influenced by Ti. Also, now I have to see an INFP's (Ne+Te) definition haha! The Ni pattern does not care if it works in the external world or comes from different fields. If it is empirically false or inefficient, it is discarded as easily as it was acquired from the subconsciousness.
Hi Kenan! I used several methods to type myself. :) With almost 10 years of experience in MBTI & Jungian typology, Self-aware was the most important ingredient in figuring out my type. When I first got into typology I was typed as an INFJ by my best friend, but I didn't trust her or the test I took (which also came back as INFJ) so I had to verify for myself that I actually was one by researching and understanding it, to see if it made sense to me. I've also been officially typed by many typing services. I was typed by Dave and Shan from Objective Personality, Meghan LeVota, TWFP and the official MBTI instrument, all concluding that I am an INFJ. So there's that too.
I feel INTJ walk in a room and had ten things to do. The INTJ will start what is rational for them to start. INTP walk into the room. tells the INTJ they forgot something and tells the INTJ if you start here and do this, and that you will get it done efficiently. The INTJ might say they are ok and continue working, or follows the logic the the INTP and say "That's the smart thing to do!". INTP thinks about the ten things and what order they should go in. Then the INTP realizes some of the tasks can be done at the same time getting the job done faster with less steps.
Fe kind of "human connection network" in the West is called corruption. I get why, but Tim perfectly explained why I think that kind of policing is so wrong 💔 But then again systems need to exist when there is so many people like nowadays...
@@kh8529 hmm, I just quickly scan it through, fast forward..I wish I could take notes, but I just forget the meaning.. The world would be boring if all the same.
Intp childlike indeed Intp Phlegmatic dominant most retained childhood Sanguine secondary second most childlike Melancholy third also third child Choleric last and least childlike This is Hippocrates description of the intp childlike This would then indicate the esfj is the farthest removed from their inner child Esfj equates to choleric extrovert dominant Melancholy introvert secondary Sanguine extrovert third and the phlegmatic introvert child fourth
30:45 as an Se dom, I’d be checking out all the materials and trying to figure out if this would be an ACTUAL replica or not based on what I was experiencing. Like is this REALLY what Columbus would have dealt with, or would it have been worse/better? She first... Ni follow up. But touching it and seeing it is the best part.
There is this one and single questions that will and can and will tell you all there is to know about yourself. Did you go out and get vexed? Yes? Nothing that you say will ever matter... No? Good. You can speak freely as a living human being. See, how easy it was to find out what you really are/were?
Not rly i dont think… Ni and Si are similar cuz they’re both introverted perceiving functions and they’re kinda “organizers” in a way. Ne is perceiving too and Ti is judging so I’m not sure if there’s much similarity
// anti-Ti comment incoming // right off the bat you see the difference. From my INTJ end, the Ti user seems so full of himself. So certain in his knowledge. I couldn't help but stop and laugh @1:00 when Michael made the exact same face as me. "This guy is so INTP. So full of himself. Thinks he knows everything. He's probably smarter than your avg bear tho, so I'll keep listening / try not to laugh."
The weird thing is that the INTP is the Judger and the INTJ is the perceiver but to the world they are seeing their secondary function more often than not.
exactly my thought
It makes sense, because people use their extroverted functions to interact with the world and use introverted functions to introspect.
@@OnLifeandLove INTPs are judgers but only for themselves
I have a daughter intp and a son intj. I love the fact that both of them are accepting of all personalities without judgement. I have learned so much from them as an esfj. I have also learned to accept a lot of physical mess.😂
"Tim, how do you feel about..."
"Well, I think..."
lol 52:28
😂 oh boy that's so funny
...I just realised I do that almost every time someone asks me that question. Fitting.
Typical INTP 😁🤣🤣🤣
INTP vs. INTJ. INTP Here.
Similarities: detached, potentially socially awkward, blunt, analytical
Differences: quite a bit. INTPs are more depth-oriented. INTJs are more decisive and utility focused. INTPs really don't feel the need to see something through unless they truly care about it to their core. INTJs are always driving to Ni via Se. I think INTJs are a bit softer oddly enough, but INTPs are much more social and bubbly. That's a bit counter-intuitive because INTJs have Fi third and INTPs have Fe fourth. I've never really met an INTJs that's as social as me. INTJs are extremely stubborn compared to INTPs. I know they say that they are open, but not really. In fact, with Te being "utility-focused", they tend to put people in boxes despite saying they are open to new information. They really are not though. Te wants to label and move on. And Ni wants a set path. People can grow beyond what you perceive them, and I have witnessed INTJs being the worst at judging people in this regard. I think Ne always sees potential, so even though Ti is judging, we are open to what else is possibly there with someone. INTPs are more patient.
This is an amazing breakdown between the two types, John! Nicely done!!
INTJ here.
Great analyzes. I agree. Regarding people i'm really fast to put them into boxes so i don't have to continue thinking about them. MBTI really expanded the number of boxes though and is a great tool for understanding motivation of people. But since we're low on Fe we don't feel the need to understand the complexity of every human that much. It's enough for me to use my pattern recognition on everyone filtering out all non-valuable information and people, which is about 98% of information and 80% of people. Unfortunately since i don't have this drive for connection (Fe) as Michael has put it beautifully, i'm fast of being not interested anymore in somebody if he doesn't fit my Fi.
So, speaking for myself, i'm really fast in judging people useless or illogical. This is probably the reason why i don't have many friends too. I really wish I would be more motivated in using Fe and in my need for connection. My Fi would love to be more lovable. But unfortunately i can't fake that without becoming unauthentic.
The openness I would consider INTJs have more of is more driven towards new information. Although we always sound very confident about anything with our Te, we are really testing our logic all the time with the tribe and see if it holds up. You could put a question-mark at every sentence we're saying since we're waiting eagerly for someone to prove us wrong, in a mannered way hopefully and increase our knowledge this way.
The certainty we're usually talking with is due to eliminating all other variables for counter-arguing our logic i.e. through calling us out on not having done enough research or maybe even on a Fe based level of having too little self-esteem. The only thing in question should be the logic and its usefulness, not the way we got to the conclusion or the way we present it.
As an INTJ I’ve always looked at the difference between me and my INTP friends is deductive thinking versus inductive thinking. As INTPs look at outcomes and seek to determine the meaning of why things are important where as an INTJ I find myself breaking things down to see how a fact can propagate and even be utilized for future plans. Almost to say that INTPs are seemingly trying to build up a Ti understanding as their preparation so that they can improvise in the moment. But INTJs kinda work as structuralists and try to use the information now to prepare for all outcomes so that when the future scenario does happen they can use their mental energy to continue looking forward as the contingency plans cover their backs in the present, just some thoughts
"How to describe Ni..."
As an INTJ, that is one of the hardest things to explain coz it's so automatic and subconscious, I can't effectively visualize, let alone explain, how it works. 😂
I wouldn’t try to explain it because it’s not a real function of consciousness. It’s just a little label made up by some psychologists (psychology is not a science) to model their observations. I would try to explain what are the underlying functions of consciousness, character traits and values that lead an observer to label a person ‘Ni’.
@@MattCookVideos physcology is science
Same thing really for Ne.
INTJ here. This is very insightful. I had an argument with an INTP and he was going about making random points. He just wants to be right always, despite his "final conclusion" being so problematic. Love Michael's INTJ stare. I see him in me, haha.
Michael really does have that classical INTJ stare. Ha! Nice to hear that you could relate and found value in watching this. :)
Are you projecting that INTP onto all INTPs in order to try to degrade INTPs as inferior to INTJs or are you talking about an isolated instance? If the instance is isolated I don't see the reason why you would want to share it, what does it prove? Looks like superiority complex to me.
@@thereisnospoon9059 sounds like an INTP to me.
Thanks for this video. I’ve always known I was INTJ but sometimes I feel I don’t fit the mold. After this I’m definitely INTJ. It’s like walking around in my own reality, totally detached from everyone else’s and feeling that really strongly. I’ve been trying so hard to understand Si and now I see what I lack! I’m not attached to experiences. Si users are collecting concrete experiences, while demon Si is living in one giant experience and doesn’t realize it.
I went on a cruise with an INTJ a few years ago. After about three days he suddenly realised he was on a ship. Like it only dawned on him then, as if he was in his own head for the first few days.
Lmao INTJ here this is why I don’t drive
@@mbtisocialclub That 's what I am scared of , not that my driving is bad.
Would like to see one with all four NT types, kind of like the old NT Support channel.
I'm on it!! Thank you for the suggestion, Rho. :) You rock
@@JoyceMeng22 No, you. You've really been hitting out of the park lately. Another suggestion, if you've not done it already: people talking about being the "wrong" gender for their type, such as male INFP, ENFP, ENFJ types and female INTJ, INTP, ISTJ and so on, what their experieences have been like not being what people expect of their gender and what their coping mechanisms have been.
@@rhoheta5243 Sure. I will be making videos on this!! =]
It’s very difficult to describe the metaphysical (Ni/Ne) clearly in physical words. Although the three of you did an excellent job trying to bring the invisible into the visible reality, it’s ironic that the types who are the most sensitive to the metaphysical have the hardest time describing it physically.
Yes, absolutely. It's so hard to pin down abstract concepts. Thank you for watching us attempt to put the unknown into known words. :)
I [INTP] had a talk with a friend [ENFJ] once, which came down to emotions/feelings and sharing them. I think I said something about a missing emotional vocabulary or something, anyhow, we tried to put the physical feeling of an emotion into words, which both of us didn't really succeed at :)
@@JoyceMeng22 It sure is. Sometimes, I find it more useful to draw or paint an abstract concept than it is to write or speak about it. For example, I recently drew a picture inspired by Defender, one of my favorite Atari 2600 video games. Rather than just draw an almost literal depiction of what you see on the TV screen, I drew it from a different perspective. There's a little girl floating in the air as she's being tractor beamed up to a lander ship while the Defender ship (that you control if you play the game) is rising up from behind the building that she was running toward to shoot the lander ship and save the girl. To me, it symbolizes that hard to describe sort of anticipatory feeling (both of possible satisfaction if you succeed while simultaneously of dread of possible failure if you miss) when you are trying to rescue a 'humanoid' as the game manual calls them. At the same time, it also shows what I imagine to be the humanoid's perspective (since the point of view in the picture is from directly behind her) of the terror of being captured. Much easier to draw all of that than to try to describe it, yet it's the aspect of the game that sets it apart from most side-scrolling ship flying shooter games.
INTP is sandwiched between two Ni-Dom
😂
I think Te-Fi interacts when you are kind with people not to please them, but because either they are important to you, or it can be useful to have them appreciate you
14:35 that is so true !, my INTP friend always keeps jumping from point to point and never arriving at a conclusion to the topic we were talking about.
before i learned about typology this behavior used to frustrate me to the point of me feeling like my INTP friend is not really listening, but then i understood its just Ne dropping ideas with Ti facts and that means the INTP is really enjoying the debate or topic.
Really abstract video. Glad there was an INFJ present, to explain some of these concepts!
INTPs are very interesting. I don't know many in the real world myself and the fact they have completely different cognitive functions, to INTJs like myself, make them difficult to understand. I think I understand INTPs better after this episode.
Great video!
I'm happy you enjoyed it! Yeah I find it fascinating to compare INTJs and INTPs as they share the same letters but use completely different functions. Thanks for tuning in, Ma Mu. :)
Mike is such a great example of standard INTJ (NiTe). I'm really glad You guys did this video. I've been looking for a good example for my internal database haha :)
He is very textbook INTJ. :) glad you were able to add him to your internal database!!
@@JoyceMeng22 thanks!!!!
INTJ here. Ni is a very tricky function to describe. Personally, it feels like floating in deep space and looking out at an abstract framework of the universe, but that reality is an intuitive construction of your own that you have been building all your life automatically. As new information comes in it shifts in shape, sort of like updating your working theory of how things "should" and thus "will" work. My Te takes the predictions of the future that arise from the Ni intuitions and linearly reasons out the events that would have to take place to get to them. When you pair the Ni and Te, it is effectively like seeing many timelines all at once. It get's exhausting sometimes because you can get so lost in your head for hours. I have to ground myself in Se by doing physical activity and practicing mindfulness, so that I don't recede into my mind so much that it affects my ability to be present. Our comfort comes in seeing a grand timeline/framework (what some other INTJs I know told me), but its quite impossible; the chase for a better intuitive model is the story of our lives. God, would I love to be able to see the beginning and end of time.
Cool! I find myself thinking about my Ni as a body of water… new information kind of drips into a large pool. And wherever it falls, it makes that bit of the pool turbulent until that new information drop integrates with the rest of the ocean.
It’s hard to talk about without sounding crazy 😝
I am always fascinated to hear other INTJs describe this because I don't feel special at all. I just see it as natural cause and effect... I don't understand why other people can't see that sitting a cup near the edge of the table makes it more likely to fall or that swinging stuff around a ceiling fan is asking for trouble... It's just obvious what would happen. It's just a set of math formulas... You just find what you'd expect on the other side of the equals sign. I take in info and refine the equation to make more predictions and so on. That's just life to me. Basically everything is math.
My partner is INTP. He often says people’s opinions are wrong and I’m like you cannot have a wrong opinion, it’s an individual viewpoint 😂 to prove he’s wrong i have to find sources that came from other human beings with letters after their names
Totally relate to needing notes. It’s like if you don’t prepare you feel like you have your one chance to talk and you just vomit out the words and the sentences come out all jumbled so having notes keeps it all linear
Very ingesting video, especially for an INTP female whom is married to an INTJ male. I with my Ti dominant function am in constant search for meaning and in constant search for truth and constantly be figuring ways for solving problems; whilst my INTJ hubby is always constant trying to build systems and making things better, as well as engaging in some sort of effective strategic plan.
Totally worth going back and watching the opening. The terror was real!
100% authentic terror lol
So many gold nuggets in this video, can't wait to see if you ever get a hold of a Entj to interract with other types.
This will be happening, Lars 🙂!!
INTP vs INTJ in collecting data:
INTP (According to Tim): Fitting things into that chandelier with fine efforts.
INTJ (Me, as I picture it): Using five filters: Very useful, useful, Might be useful, Not useful, and Delete. Towards that subjective/ personal goal.
Haha. The Ti vs Te divide between INTPs and INTJs is strong!
Wow, this was an incredibly insightful discussion. Hearing some examples of how Tim and Michael utilize their respective cognitive functions was very helpful in refining my understanding of the concepts. I definitely resonated with much of Tim's descriptions. The Ne-Si dynamic in particular felt very relatable, so I think I'm on the right track. Having taken a few tests and more importantly trying to determine my own functions, INTP seems to be the best fit for me so far. Thanks for the video!
Joyce is so great at explaining the cognitive functions, I am so glad for her understanding! 💙
As for analogies, I like to compare Ni to dreaming while you are awake, and Ti to coding.
Ni is like a dream, the symbols and patterns of our individual subconscious that present themselves in a unique context. The Ni user is more or less aware that he's/she's dreaming and knows that the dream is connected to something he/she experienced in the real world / in another context, while Se is being awake and not remembering that you were dreaming. (you can spin the analogy further, like: Te (seen as an isolated function) would try to control the dream (via lucid dreaming etc.), Ne would then create his own unique dream. )
Ti is like coding meaning that each individual has its own individual framework (a language, like Java, C++, Python,...), and while knowing that the code has to work in the end, Ti builds its way up from the bottom, declaring variables, building the different blocks etc. until it gets to the end result. And because the code works, it is therefore correct and logical. Changing the code with new information is difficult, because you may need to change each block of code.
I hope it makes any sense. It's just what came to my mind.
INTPs are like fly paper. We pick up so much trivia and odd facts with our Si child. Our Ne parent then plays with it and looks for patterns in our Ti framework where it can apply the knowledge for practical or impractical application. It makes it easy to flow with interviews even with unforeseen questions as we have so many facts, opinions and half digested insights that if we can't give you a confident answer we can usually either hit the topic at a tangent or give you some even better questions you should be asking about the topic.
Hey Roger! I massively appreciate the comments you leave on my videos, they are very insightful.
If you ever want to participate in a video, you are free to join. :) Although I understand if you are too shy or are uncomfortable on camera for any reason. If you are interested, feel free to send me an email at joycemeng22@gmail.com!
@@JoyceMeng22 I love the offer, but I don't have video options on my computer. I'm always trying to understand both myself and others better to be more effective a communicator.
I am watching a ton of your videos right now. Particularly those related to INTPs and my gf's ISFP type. We listen as we do puzzles.
Got it!! No problem at all
It's so funny watching cognitive function videos featuring an INTP as an INTP because everyone "oohs and ahhs" Ti and Ne, but to me a whole NT conversation is normal. :-D
So true! You mentioned finding it normal, so I'm wondering if you're an NT too. =] They actually had a conversation right after filming the episode and it was the most NT thing ever. Gotta love 'em.
@@JoyceMeng22 what was it about? The NT convo? (no detail, just curious about the subject)
I wonder if they'd agree on this RE: The Ship: As an example learning experience, the INTP and the INTJ are there to do two different things:
INTP: Look at all this info! I can find out all kinds of things about a bunch of different novel items here, including a ship! (Like tim said, the ropes, knots, navigation instruments, etc
INTJ: Look at all this info! I can find out all kinds of things about this ship! Including all the items they use to help it "ship" better! (As Michael talks about, always "on topic" and the data is silo'd so he can apply it next time he needs to know about a ship like this)
The difference would be that INTPs are cataloging things into the smallest pieces individually, based on that one item's impact on reality. INTJs are cataloging things into their usability/final "output" on reality when combined.
Ni is a spiral. Draws everything in and mixes it to refine it from the exterior to the core. Every fact and input serves to improve the core but the outter tails are more faded out. Just like a spiraling galaxy or a drain, or even a mixing soup that gets blended and turns into a more homogenous color.
21:03
One way to visualize this situation is seeing the movie Avengers Infinity War. When Dr. Strange visualize all the possible outcomes, and realize that the heroes win in only one scenario.
INTJ here. How to describe Ni? It’s like a revolving door of knowledge and possibilities and it rotates and grabbing information from this conveyor belt of thoughts and putting it into a coherent statement that is understandable is difficult sometimes. Ni comes to me as a collection of thoughts that is not in a sentence form and we have to strengthen the Te to make sense of our cluster of thoughts like telepathy. My brain works faster than my mouth.
I have had 2 specific experiences with telepathy and it was really a supernatural experience. The brain talking to another brain without words was one of the coolest experiences I’ve ever had.
such a great talk guys! Does Michael have a youtube channel? Would love to hear his perspective on more things. I'm an INTJ myself and I find it often quite hard to relate to the INTJs on youtube. But I do everything that he mentioned in the exact same way as him. Especially that "INTJ panic mode" moment at the beginning resonated with me haha. It's sometimes so frustrating to know that you _know_ something, but you can't put it into words. Or a question hits you off guard and you just can't access your knowledge right away because of the pressure that you feel in the heat of the situation :D Also it's refreshing to see an INTJ who accepts and is able to show his vulnerabilities in such a confident way.
He's just started it, it's coalled Countertype.
Joyce,the next one,ENTJ vs INTJ,keep up the good work!
Great suggestion, the video is coming up!
INTPs will also go into their shadow and use a Ni function in a negative pattern as being hypercritical of what people want. So critical that they don't allow themselves to ever want anything, because other people are irresponsible about what they want.
The best way to describe the intuitive functions Ni or Ne is, ironically, with an analogy!
😂 This is true!!
You guys are all amazing. I think I'm about halfway through and still and not 100% because there's so many things that could go both ways for me I'll see what the rest of the video says. So glad I found this channel.
So happy you found my little channel @Sarah UpsideDown. 😊 Hope you enjoy the rest of the videos!
@@JoyceMeng22 thanks!! Your an awesome person. Thanks for all the content.
This was an amazing conversation, it really helped me clarify the differences between the thought proses of these types.
Glad it was helpful, @Fanis Tassopoulos!! :) Thank you for watching!
Great episode Joyce, Tim and Michael ❤
Loved how deep you guys went-- especially when discussing the differences between the Si-Ne and Se-Ni axis'!
Thank you, Ikram!! Your support brings a smile to my face.
My first major was engineering and I am not an engineer. I'm a nurse haha. But, my roommate said I solved Physics problems in my sleep. I would Te while sleeping and she kept a notebook around to write down what I said. I was really not the smartest engineer while conscious, but subconsciously I was amazing. I also used to guess while using The Matrix program ( it was a program, it wasn't the movie I know, I know), but yeah I used to guess and get the right answers but have to write down how I got there and I would be able to verbally explain the spacial analysis that I could see in my head, but have no idea how to get there. My math teacher in highschool used to grade my tests backwards. I would get the more difficult questions correct even if I just guessed and couldn't do the work and I suck suck suck at Algebra. I'm all analysis Te, I hate logic Ti. You fill that in for me INTP, the INTJ and I are going to go imagine the future. -ENTJ : )
Thank you for the opportunity for the different types to share their insights & perspectives in your channel. Very fascinating! Warmed our heart to know your cup was filled too! 💗💗
Glad you enjoyed it, Linds! 😊
I've always really struggled with the whole Te and Fe aspects of our culture. There's whole days that I'll spend alone in my apartment while my wife is out teaching at her school. I'll stay active all day and not nap or vegetate in front of the TV or anything, but at the end of the day, I don't always have something physical that I can point to and say "I did that today." Some days, I spend the time thinking about what I'm working on, what I've already finished doing and other ways of using any results from it, or what I'm going to work on next. It's fine as long as I have that product that my client is paying me for done before the deadline, which is most of the time, but there's times when people will ask "So, what did you do today?" and I'll have to give them a vague answer like 'editing', or 'writing', or 'illustrating', but I'll say that I can't show them any of it right now because of non-disclosure agreements or something like that.
When all of this planning and ruminating finally seems to be enough to take physical action though, I can crank out a draft or sketch in a matter of a few minutes or hours because all of what I consider the 'real work' of figuring it out is already done.
Sorry about the multiple comments, but UA-cam won't let me edit comments once I post them anymore.
INTPs are the ideas person as I've mentioned the Architects Where as the INTJs are the implementers INTPs come up with the blue prints and INTJs are the builders the engineers.
I can't put a finger on why I'm finding this video so esoteric. :P
Haha OP would be like, "this video is so not ST clear!!!"
(P.S. Shan is going to be on Type Talks early May =P)
INTJs can see every future for themselves (Ni) and INTPs can see every possibility for everyone ells and the world (Ne), both being pattern detecting abillities.
This is also why INTJs have willpower and INTPs have not. Lack of awareness of one's own futures lowers the sense of urgency in an INTP whereas INTJs will have seen every future that might happen to themselves they will have the damoceles sword hanging over their head if there is some bad thing or suboptimal thing looming in the future for them.
INTPs will see the same damoceles sword or future successes from a mile away for the world, or the people around them, or the systems or natural world around them.
Is Michael taken? LOL he's so gorgeous!
Hey Joyce! You forgot to reply on this one! 🤣😂😂❤️(just kidding, and just wanting to know the same.. 😁)
I'm a boy and I wonder the same... haha
I'm INTJ, and I take "thinking" naps too! Especially after information or sensory dumps. It lets everything ferment in the subconscious, and I often get up with an insight to whatever problem I'm trying to solve. Michael Y, let me know if you ever want to do a video on this.
It's really interesting to hear about people not having Si. Does this mean that people without Si are less attracted to nostalgia and keeping objects & memories of sentimental value? Or are those things just processed and stored differently in your mind?
Hi Lala! Excellent question.
For me, these things are processed and stored differently, my mind prioritizes seeing the bigger meaning of the sequence of events, but not the event itself. So I can be rather detached from Si related things unless it represents something in the bigger picture/system.
Our memory works totally different , we can't remember anything by putting effort but if something is important to us It pops up instantly in our mind .
I don't know how accurate my typing is as a supposed INTJ, but I tend to be more focused on the utility of something versus the sentimental value and I don't really like nostalgia. I sometimes hold on to items in the thought that they could still be useful, but sometimes I'll just go on a spree of throwing away things because I've seen that I probably won't ever use them. I do take a lot of pictures, but it's usually as either proof that something happened or as a reference for something rather than particularly sentimental. While I would prefer to hold onto things, I probably would get over it fairly quickly if something I don't have a use for goes away.
Edit: This doesn't mean that sentimental items aren't kept and memories aren't remembered. I just this we're a bit more selective on what we choose to be sentimental over. I rarely take pictures of my self and won't regularly think of old memories, but I will be able to recall them if they are brought up.
@@Kitsunary Yep, me, too (INTJ)
I always relate to Tim even tho I'm ENFP. Ne connection is really strong 🤍 hahahahaha
I'm new to this, and maybe I just don't understand the specifics or nuances. I took one test that told me I was INTJ and another that said INTP. On both tests the J/P was close to 50/50. How could someone be so close to either and have completely opposite cognitive functions. Do I have a dual personality? Am I schizophrenic?
I’m gonna go ahead and say no, getting different answers is not a symptom of schizophrenia....... it’s hard to pin a personality from 60 yes or no questions, none of these tests are perfect, and intj and intp have similar temperaments.
Yes, absent minded for sure. The first recollection I have of the moment of realizing what my personality might be like was when I was something like six or seven years old. My mom would call me her 'absent minded professor'. I was always hungry for knowledge and understanding the mechanical systems around me. I'd happily pull out a volume of the encyclopedia and read entries in it for hours. Another time, I'd take something complex apart and try to figure out how it worked. Once I thought I'd learned something new to me, I'd enjoy sharing that with others. When it came to day to day living, especially interacting with other people in society though, my mind was off thinking about something I found more interesting instead. Spent a lot of time in church, doctor's waiting rooms, meetings of clubs that my grandparents or parents were in, visiting with family friends who didn't have kids to play with, etc. absorbed in my own imagination and just aware of the present enough to avoid things like walking into walls, or missing my name called and things like that. I still escape reality into the landscape of my mind today when I see no need to be focused on the present. I still forget to do things that others think I ought to remember, but those things don't seem important enough deep down to me for me to keep them in mind, so I need lots of notes and reminders around.
I love the bit when Joyce called on Michael and he wasn't ready, so he panicked rather than improvising like Tim did. Especially when Michael talked about it later and explained why he panicked and how that happens so often when he finds himself in a situation that he didn't have a chance to prepare for. If I were to ever do a live video interview like this, I'd need to be talked into it first of all because I'm rather shy in front of crowds or cameras, but even if the moderator could convince me to do it, I'd need as much time as he or she could give me to research the topics of the interview or panel and to write up notes that I could have in front of me. Heck, if I could have a teleprompter, that would be even better, but I'd still probably have typed up notes handy in case that thing quit working (always most comfortable when I've prepared for what could go wrong).
I just got a new (to me) Star Wars action figure in the mail that I'd never had as a kid. I researched which one of that figure to buy on several sites for days before deciding. Once I got it home, I spent several hours rearranging my display of childhood Star Wars figures to make room for him. I have all of my figures that are on display set up in different groups and organized by some theme. In this case, the figure I got was the final bounty hunter I was missing from the ones you see on the deck of Darth Vader's Venator class star destroyer in The Empire Strikes Back - Zuckuss (which Kenner mislabeled as 4-LOM on the packaging back then). I just 'had' to move things around so that there was room for Zuckuss next to 4-LOM (which Kenner mislabeled as Zuckuss) in my little display. I had to set them up that way because that's the way I think about them when I think about the movie and how I played with them as a kid. I can examine, study and admire each figure as an object in its own right when I choose to, but my first impulse is to think of what they mean to me in terms of memories, characters in the Star Wars movies and books, etc. rather than as just plastic toys. I can tell you a lot of information about these things, both as characters and as objects of interest. That's an example of how my mind works. :)
Yes you can convince an INTP they are wrong. They get mad. I got into a debate with one once. She shut down the entire thread when she realized...she wasn't wrong, per se, but not right either.
I'm an INFJ, and I don't think I know an INTP or an INTJ, but I see both as highly intelligent. As an INFJ, I am drawn to logic, and have spent a lot of time analyzing logical arguments (having taken collegiate philosophical logic, I adopted it...preferring and refining Deductive logic, which I associate with Ti. Te, to me, is about changing world, Ti is about understanding it...application vs processing). I appreciate both, because they are both capable of challenging me. Like Michael, I can change my mind. But closer to Tim, it wont happen in real-time. I have to internalize it over a short period of time first. You cant just tell me I am wrong. You have to show me. My favorite INTP is Neil Peart (who died earlier this year). My favorite INTJ is fictional, one of my 2 favorite fictional characters of all time, Jean Luc Picard.
My wife is an ENFJ. I am 44 years old, and consider myself too old to be starting over. But if I had to, it'd be with an INTP or INTJ. I often wish I was INTJ, rather than INFJ. They seem so much more confident and assertive .
Ni is ABOUT something, as it is internalized in the mind, whereas Si users dont see perception as internalizing. Ni is detached, Si is direct.
But all perception occurs in the mind. In fact, people often miss the fact that there are 2 definitions of both objective and subjective. Everything is subjective in that it occurs in the mind. It is objective when it is done without reference to preconceptions,bexisting beliefs, values, or feelings. Logic is objectively subjective (logic is a human processing tool and isnt actually found in the real world). Anything that is purely objective occurs outside of the mind (but experienced within it). We use objective to differentiate real experience from imagination (ONLY occurring within the mind). Si is about raw data, Ni is about meaning.
I agree with Jung. I am almost always in my head.
my archieve 25:34 is a dark library (NE) that is hard to read books (Si data points) of but luckily i have a candle (Ti) to see and connect them together. Maybe it is dark because my fe is none existent lol.
Intp has endless stream of ideas
INTJ will be the one doing any surgery on me or INFJ in some cases INFJ is usually your general diagnostic doctor or psychiatrist
I definitely want to feel like I'm providing value and hate improv. I also hate feeling like I wasn't as "perfect" as I could've been had I prepared. I was taking a public speaking class and hated the impromptu speech. I don't have Si memories to draw from. I get embarrassed and feel badly about myself because I look dumb, which is the worst for a Te user. I get angry when it's even implied that I'm stupid.
46:12 "We are at quarantine for a year, but I can do it for a month" Gosh, I relate to this man so much LMAO I am hyper-aware of how COVID has taken lifes, and is disastrously depressing for most of the population. But I actually have one of the best time in my life during quarantine, no human connection, living in my own head, recharging energy ... (luckily I don't have ill family members to take care of)
Great topics as always, congratulations
Thank you for the kind words of support, Samuel. :)
An INTP without good Fe is easily marginalized and unproductive. Our gift is in putting hard truths over popularity and when we are unable to soften those truths to a way they can be received people will just think we are being rude and leave our wisdom unheeded.
(ENFP) It was so interesting to watch this and relate to both of them, depending on the axis being discussed... I had never before considered that Si was responsible for my 'nostalgia-sickness', as I call it... or how none of my extraverted functions are in fact the 'social' ones... which is why overt 'social butterfly' descriptions of my type never feel accurate... Thank you
The point Michael was making about being on a ship. It being such a unique experience his mind was making millions of connections. I know exactly what that's like. I describe it as, the more unique the data or experience the more detached I become. It's almost a hidden driving factor in intjs I believe. Novel data, to make new formulas that if unique enough can be like a life hack. Or it can be complete nonsense and fantasy, I almost blacked out at comicon...
The most beautiful thing in that experience would be the detailed and vividness mapping of the ship within the mind where we can access it anytime whenever similar part is useful.
@Joyce How would you type Shiroe in Log Horizon? I relate to the character as an INTJ, but I've had arguments with INTP's claiming he's INTP.
So it's my Ne-Si responsible when I answer a question randomly but correctly. Thanks to this function.🤣 ENFP
Having Te demon, I think Te culture is about having to prove your worth in the tribe and having to justify the things you stand for, because otherwise the tribe wouldn't understand why the things you care about are worthwhile. I think Te culture is very closely related to Capitalism. It's kind of like how no business cares about sustainable practices unless doing so would bring in money and customers (and prevent the world from burning down, but you must also prove it with numbers).
Great points on Te culture and capitalism!! Hard agree.
Yess
When I'm in Ni, it's like it's hard to tell the difference between concrete reality and fantasy, idealism, wishes etc. When am I dreaming and when am I fully awake? To me, they blend together. I sometimes wake up in the morning (or in the middle of the night) with a solution, or set of possible solutions to something that had vexed me the previous day(s). I can't always describe where the solution came from, but now I've got it, so I write it down quickly before I lose it. I keep a notebook by my bed just for that.
I know what you mean about being an 'old soul'. Even when I was a little kid, I preferred to stay at home and draw or read a book than to go out and 'have fun' with other people. I'd find excuses for why I couldn't go to parties on the rare instances when I'd be invited. Now, my wife drags me to social events. Before I knew her, I just wouldn't go unless I could be convinced that it was something that might move me more towards a goal. Like, a party would only be something I wanted to go to on my own if I knew that I ought to go for the sake of networking with prospective clients or something like that. Even when I do try to network with people, I need to take notes if I can about who is who and why I ought to remember them and stay in touch with them. Takes a lot to bring me to the present moment for more than a short time.
I feel like almost everything they're describing as the difference between their T functions is actually describing the difference between Ne-Si axis and Ni-Se axis. :P
Cognitive functions are so vague and ill defined, it's really tiring.
Intp and infj are both sanguine secondary
Intp phlegmatic dominant
INFJ melancholy dominant
INTJ melancholy dominant phlegmatic secondary sanguine third
I see (Not visually but kinesthetically) Ti as a bookshelf.
First the bookshelf is built in a coherent way, and then filled with information which should hopefully be findable in an equally coherent way.
Not very web-y to me at all. :)
Interesting!!! I will think about this some more, Nic.
I was just thinking the Ne/Si and Se/Ni axis seem to be
engineered and reverse engineered versions of the same concept (just some idea)
- Ne/Si observes the root over time (Si) and is interested how the plant will grow out of it (Ne - creativity/growth/ "branch off")
- Ni/Se experiences the plant in reality now (Se) and
is interested how this type of plants root should always look like (no specific time/timeless)
The direction of yin to yan/yan to yin concept seems to go in the opposite direction (darkness of underground being yin and light above the ground seems yang). They could be seen as the 2 directions of the cycle of life. The Se/Ne is the youthful phase of growth and Ni/Si is the old phase of reduction and eventually death (the latter could be worded better - no native speaker)
This is FANTASTIC. In fact, this is so great, I would love to quote you on Twitter!! Is that okay?
Yeah, so I see both Si & Ni as being timeless in different ways. Si is storing timeless concrete impressions (with a specific time). While Ni is storing timeless abstract impressions (understanding a pattern with no specific time or detail).
@@JoyceMeng22 Thanks! Yeah, sure you can. Yeah I could see why Si could be timeless, in the sense that introverted functions tend to be more timeless (Ti timeless logic, Fi timeless ethics etc) but at the same time a "timeless" impression with a timestamp in some sense seems a bit odd.
Just curious..but which part do you find fantastic about this? The root thing, the engineered/reverse of the same thing, the yin yang? or ..?
Yes!! All introverted functions have an element of timelessness as it's like they have a timeless abstraction in their mind they're constantly refining or revisiting in their mind.
I loved everything you had to say but I wanted to quote this one in particular (Although I don't know what I should refer to you as! I might just leave it blank in quotations.)
"Ne/Si observed the root over time (Si) and is interested how the plant will grow out of it (Ne - creativity/growth/ "branch off")
Ni/Se experiences the plant in reality now (Se) and is interested how this type of plants root should always look like like (no specific time/timeless)"
wooaahh
Do Ni doms have good attention spans and memory? I space out constantly as an Ni aux and have a terrible memory. My INTJ son has a better memory, attention span, faster mind and faster learner in general. I'll see something that makes me think of something or someone else and off my mind goes lol
I wonder if my thoughts about Ni and Ne are correct now speaking about physics an an example correct me if I'm wrong. For me Ne would be collecting kinda smaller patterns related to the subject like I have a set of formulas for dynamics and I have another set of formulas for thermodynamics. For me as an Ne user I would want to find the patterns (in this case those formulas that always work) and then see with my Si if they work in experiments. It's great if those patterns have similarities (like for example the concept of energy) but I wouldn't naturally look for them. I wonder if Ni would have this desire to kinda find the common thread in all those topics in this example finding the world formula that could explain all physics.
Ni absorbs multiple patterns to distill a common principle. It is like a fractal wreath that tries to cover all the Se that it draws from. If there are similar patterns, they are absolutely gonna be merged into a single one. The similarity criteria is totally irrational, e.g. imagine grouping your phone apps by color. And the end goal is indeed to connect everything into a nice tidy web with filled out center. But the wreath fractal only scales up as it's filled.
That is what it feels like to me.
Thank you for your perspective of Ne. It looks like our concept of pattern is different, and yours seems to be influenced by Ti. Also, now I have to see an INFP's (Ne+Te) definition haha!
The Ni pattern does not care if it works in the external world or comes from different fields. If it is empirically false or inefficient, it is discarded as easily as it was acquired from the subconsciousness.
38:00 beying attached to somehting in the past seems like unsolved problem in persons mind.
I have made many comments saying intj is master of the outer world and infj master of inner world
Just say "I dont know".
I didnt... What? We can do that!
Ti-Ne makes INTPs ask 'How???' and Ni-Te makes INTJs ask 'Why???' .
Switching off the microphone button is the INTJ thing
Joyce how did you type yourself?
Hi Kenan!
I used several methods to type myself. :)
With almost 10 years of experience in MBTI & Jungian typology, Self-aware was the most important ingredient in figuring out my type.
When I first got into typology I was typed as an INFJ by my best friend, but I didn't trust her or the test I took (which also came back as INFJ) so I had to verify for myself that I actually was one by researching and understanding it, to see if it made sense to me.
I've also been officially typed by many typing services. I was typed by Dave and Shan from Objective Personality, Meghan LeVota, TWFP and the official MBTI instrument, all concluding that I am an INFJ. So there's that too.
I can't take my eyes off from their gorgeous foreheads (ISFP)
I feel INTJ walk in a room and had ten things to do. The INTJ will start what is rational for them to start. INTP walk into the room. tells the INTJ they forgot something and tells the INTJ if you start here and do this, and that you will get it done efficiently. The INTJ might say they are ok and continue working, or follows the logic the the INTP and say "That's the smart thing to do!". INTP thinks about the ten things and what order they should go in. Then the INTP realizes some of the tasks can be done at the same time getting the job done faster with less steps.
Wait Michael's in Rochester?! That's where I'm from!!
Joyce and her beautiful side swept fringe lol
Fe kind of "human connection network" in the West is called corruption. I get why, but Tim perfectly explained why I think that kind of policing is so wrong 💔 But then again systems need to exist when there is so many people like nowadays...
So similar, yet so far..
❤
Why not use a tape recorder, whilst doing a webinar Michael,no arm ache.
Or wasted time.
For me it would feel like wasted time to listen to everything again. Notes are much quicker to scan and only have the data that's relevant for me.
@@kh8529 hmm, I just quickly scan it through, fast forward..I wish I could take notes, but I just forget the meaning..
The world would be boring if all the same.
Michael is super cute ❤
Intp childlike indeed
Intp
Phlegmatic dominant most retained childhood
Sanguine secondary second most childlike
Melancholy third also third child
Choleric last and least childlike
This is Hippocrates description of the intp childlike
This would then indicate the esfj is the farthest removed from their inner child
Esfj equates to choleric extrovert dominant
Melancholy introvert secondary
Sanguine extrovert third and the phlegmatic introvert child fourth
30:45 as an Se dom, I’d be checking out all the materials and trying to figure out if this would be an ACTUAL replica or not based on what I was experiencing. Like is this REALLY what Columbus would have dealt with, or would it have been worse/better? She first... Ni follow up. But touching it and seeing it is the best part.
Fascinating. Would you ever like to join a Type Talks video, @
Kefka & Khajiit ! ? If so, email me at joycemeng22@gmail.com :)
@@JoyceMeng22 ahhhhh!!! I’m flattered. I’ll email you. It’ll be with my real name, so don’t go doxxing me 😂
Learned alot
Yay! I'm so glad, M M. ^-^
There is this one and single questions that will and can and will tell you all there is to know about yourself. Did you go out and get vexed?
Yes? Nothing that you say will ever matter...
No? Good. You can speak freely as a living human being.
See, how easy it was to find out what you really are/were?
there is still global bio logical AI time frame. so it acts different then AI
Intp small eyed Barney Rubble
Enfj Fred Flintstone
INFJ Wilma
Esfj Betty
I wonder if Ne and Ti have similarities just like how Ni and Si have similarities.
Not rly i dont think… Ni and Si are similar cuz they’re both introverted perceiving functions and they’re kinda “organizers” in a way. Ne is perceiving too and Ti is judging so I’m not sure if there’s much similarity
I like Tim
// anti-Ti comment incoming // right off the bat you see the difference. From my INTJ end, the Ti user seems so full of himself. So certain in his knowledge. I couldn't help but stop and laugh @1:00 when Michael made the exact same face as me. "This guy is so INTP. So full of himself. Thinks he knows everything. He's probably smarter than your avg bear tho, so I'll keep listening / try not to laugh."
Ti is kinda like a probability chart...
51:37 😂😂
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