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Atheist Debates - Tower of Babel
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- Опубліковано 8 сер 2024
- Part of the Atheist Debates Patreon project: / atheistdebates
A quick look at a short, inserted story that people just seem desperate to interpret beyond what the text actually says.
You'd think an all-knowing god would remember they'd run out of breathable air when the tower got tall enough. Thanks, Matt!
We have much taller buildings now....funny how hod changed his mind.
god. afraid of man. and tall buildings.
God doesn't care about us
Tower of Babbel 2: now with pressurized penthouses.
Corner Staple In all honesty, that is THE best argument for god i've ever heard of.
Bible writers:
-Hey, why there are so many languages?
-I don't know.
-I don't feel comfortable not knowing.
-Don't worry. Let's make some BS story to explain that.
-Ok. I feel better now.
response to Javier Gauna...dont you mean Bible readers considering all Bible writers are dead and gone to God or elsewhere....the horrible irony in your comment is that you did fall victim to the bs, hows your comfort level when the evidence proves so
Your point, being? Gaps in how a story work can cast doubt on it...
doubt is not illegal, when much is left unsaid.
@Javier Gauna
You seem to me like your an atheist, are you one? If so why did you become or decide to call yourself an atheist? What kind of atheist are you exactly? What really sells you on that?
@@j0hncon5tantine yes I'm an atheist because I don't believe an any god or gods. Simple as that. What kind? I don't know what you mean by that. Did you know what an atheist is?
@Javier Gauna
Richard Dawkins says in one of his books that there are "different levels" of atheism and many people nowadays call themselves an "agnostic atheist"! I was wondering what kind you are and how confident you are that we are living in a Godless universe, how sure are you? How much money would you bet on it? 100, 1000, a million or more money? Please tell me how much......
Dear Matt; What amazes me most about the Towel of Babel tale, is the verse in which god is like: _"Wow: Look how united and cooperative humanity is! If they keep this up they'd be able to achieve anything"_ to then go: _"We can't have that, so let's mess up their communication, so they no longer understand each other"_ .
I mean: What the bleep is wrong with folks, cooperating and achieving great things? (other than maybe messing up god's entertainment, he was looking forward to?)
Oops (edit): Spoke too soon (since you address this very point yourself)
4000 years ago people were sitting around a campfire and one kid asked, "Why do the hill people talk funny?"
And this story in the bible was created.
It has always baffled me, even from a very young age that the believers from the three Abrahamic theologies that emerged from Middle East don't realize that they are involved in the largest and longest game of telephone ever played.
Why are you mad at the folks from a few valleys away that have an almost identical theology to you.
Because *their* evil demonic false-god wears sandals while *our* omnibenevolent and all-wise true-god wears crocs.
I know, I know... I tried talking him out of it, but what can you do? Nevertheless, those sandal-heathens have to go.
@@jamesk.4902 Your problem is that you are thinking rationally. :)
To the various Abrahamic religions, infidels are one thing but _heretics!_ (ie people who believe almost what they do but with some key differences like Mohammed as the ultimate prophet, or Jesus as God made flesh or the HolyLand belongs to Israel) now that is just intollerable! ;)
Just between you and me, you guys made the right move.
my friend asked me why he (imtanked) doesn't read the Bible...cuz he roasted his marshmellow
Yet "God is not the author of confusion" right?
"It was inspired by god"
@@gj9157 confusion?
@@sheezamann2724 I'm just mocking Christians.
@forkliftwizard
What that means is God is not the author of all the confusing human lies people of these times made, but if he wants to make people get confused directly by mixing up languages he can....
You seem to me like your an atheist, are you one? If so why did you become or decide to call yourself an atheist? What kind of atheist are you exactly? What really sells you on that?
@exodus21v20
The Problem
Jacob was buried in Machpelah according to Moses (Genesis), but according to Stephen (Acts) it seems that he was buried in Shechem. What now?
Correct translation
Acts 7:15 "And Jacob went down to Egypt and he died; likewise/also our fathers 16 and they were removed to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem."
- In most translations (as in NASBu) ‘died’ is a plural form, but in the Greek ‘died’ is a singular form with ‘Jacob’ as subject, not ‘Jacob and the fathers’ as subject. And so ‘they were removed’ refers to the last mentioned plural form, i.e. ‘the fathers’ and not to ‘Jacob and the fathers’. That’s all. This mistake was made in the King James Version first.
Lack of Courage
Most translators thereafter lacked the courage to break away from this old and respected version of the Bible and so we inherited an old problem. Anyway, it is said here in Acts that only the sons of Jacob were buried in a sepulchre which was bought earlier by Abraham. This is not strange, as Abraham had many people in his clan and he needed several burial places in the land. These included others in addition to Machpelah where Rachel was buried and also Jacob later on.
To me this story is simple: People of this time didn't know why people from other lands spoke differently than they did, so they made up a story to explain it... No insight, inspiration or hidden meaning to be found.
Ok, so what came before that.
@@Iamzion144 Before language spread, you mean?
MATT, this is unrelated, but I need to THANK YOU for the talks you've had about women's rights and sexual health. It was the bright light of logic I needed in some very dark times.
Before you read what I'm saying, I have some requests. Please do not dismiss it by saying "What on earth are you talking about?!?" Please do not do that... Instead, if you don't understand, please pace the floor (or something) until what I'm saying can be understood, because I don't have a better way of explaining this, so it requires the *cooperation of the listener* to understand this point, which is why I'm asking you not to dismiss it, nor attempt to answer it, not because the answer isn't true (because it could be) but "answering" also (in this case) has a (potential) counter-productive nature because things that are "answered" essentially do not need to be explored any further, and the whole point is to explore what "isn't so obvious" about what you're saying, so I need it to be considered rather than answered, and if you still disagree in the end, at least you to took it to heart.
The term "Dark Times" was an interesting choice of words. I understand you had your own purpose for using them and perhaps did not have this intention that I would explain, but that could be due to not acknowledging the connotation consciously while recognizing it subconsciously (although not necessarily), so I'm just going to mention this for thought. There's no need to defend your use of the term, it's only food for thought, and allowing oneself to consider it in one's reasoning is not anti-logical, it is the opposite, to consider all possibilities, including subtle potential truths.
With that said, "Dark Times" holds the connotation that something has lack of truth ("darkness"/ uninformed), which you are communicating by saying "bright light of logic", but it also holds other connotations like "Anti-truth = Immorality (Darkness)", and it also seems to "associate depression, confusion (negative emotion) with darkness", as in to communicate the presence of darkness or evil results in one being a victim to it through the emotion of depression, confusion, or whatever the emotion/state of mind might be. The thing is, emotions or states of mind like these (i.e. confusion/depression/etc.) are not "inherently evil" to the person experiencing them (because you are not necessarily saying you were evil in your struggle for truth but were hindered by an evil source causing this negative state of being), which implies being a victim of an evil source, which seems to subconsciously acknowledge an evil presence behind/causing this state of being, and also associates morality (goodness) with truth, and lies that harm one's normal state of being immoral (evil) which implies that these two things exist objectively (an objective good, and an objective evil, connected to truth).
But it doesn't only acknowledge this, but also implies that there is a right way to use logic/reason, and a wrong way, which logic itself is not what makes logic bright, but the Morally excellent use of logic/truth is what is right morally and factually, implying the pursuit of truth is not just a intellectual pursuit, but a moral pursuit as well, and both are absolutely necessary to ascertain truth.
To be fair, you could be referring to (and partially are seemingly referring to) ignorance that leads to immoral behavior, but you're also communicating that how one is effected by it in (perhaps) confusion (for example) through their struggles to pursue truth is also due to the presence of darkness. However, this "darkness" does not necessarily always come from the teachings of other people, but also one's own perceptions and interpretation of his observations of the natural world that can sometime result in a crisis, and this may also be categorized as "dark times", meaning the source of darkness doesn't necessarily always come from another person's direct instruction/teaching, but through one's own perceptions, but because these negative states of being are not inherently evil to the person who has fallen victim to it, it thus implies an external source causing that "darkness" (evil presence) is not coming from another human being but something else is influencing that state of being, and yet still has that evil presence. It isn't another man or women, and it isn't one's self who is the source of that darkness because he is a victim to it. What else is left?
and to reiterate, it also acknowledges "Good" and "Evil" as objective, not solely subjective, which implies an immaterial aspect of the presence of evil.
In other words, there *is a SUBTILE sense* in which you may be making a supernatural reference by the use of the term "dark times".
_______________
Please do not answer. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not claiming this is what you're doing, so it doesn't need to be defended. I only want it to be considered without obstructions preventing it from being taken to heart.
If you don't understand, *please wait and don't react.* Let it marinate, as it isn't so obvious, but still may have a subtle connection. Therefore it requires your cooperation to consider.
"And the whole Earth was of one language".
This is all you need to read to know the story is false.
All men didn't come from one family, and certainly not from one man and woman. The whole Earth was never of one language.
Right
Thomas Lundy Because there never was one family.
Humans came in groups larger than families, before they were even humans.
I disagree look at Egypt heiroglyphics has every nationality in them also the bible mention super continent being divided genesis 10 25
shanaye ferguson Which does not match the biblical timeline. And where does continental drift equal 'in his time the land was divided?'
Because continental drift takes millions of years.
And no, Egyptian hieroglyphics do not mention the Soloman islands, native Americans and thousands of others, nor do they include their language.
Look at all the skyscrapers in New York City. God must be pissed.
Lol
😂🤣🤣
Thomas Lundy THat's not what it says. God says 'they will be like us." That's fear.
That's threat.
Not, 'I told them to spread out, and they are not doing it.'
Actually if you read jasher it shows you why He destroyed babel
shanaye ferguson Except it was never destroyed. IT's still there.
Construction ceased when the king died. Was taken up again by a later king.
Ceased again when the kingdom fell.
And when the kingdom fell, the schools closed, and no one learned cuneiform any more.
You touch on it briefly, but the thing I find funniest about the bible is how people who were very, very close to God kept making him really mad. It goes right thru the gospels, where Jesus repeatedly berates the DISCIPLES for not having faith in him. But hey, kid growing up 2000 years later in the Midwest, you should have blind faith in him.
@Tysto
You seem to me like your an atheist, are you one? If so why did you become or decide to call yourself an atheist? What kind of atheist are you exactly? What really sells you on that?
The point was, how much more of a reward to those who believe with love and faith and listened. Compared to those who did see and still didn't listen.
The faith is compared to that of a child not the left brain so called intellect.
@@j0hncon5tantine There are no "kinds" of atheists. There are those who believe in gods, and those who do not. Something that is defined by the lack of something does not have "types". You can't be a "type" of non-sports watcher.
@@hd-mot
You are disagreeing with Richard Dawkins, one of the head priests of atheism then, who speaks of different types of atheists in his book, "the God Delusion". How about someone who is blind but only listens to sports and someone who hates sports and neither listens nor watches, sounds like there are different types there guy..... maybe you should have thought your analogy through a lil better.....
What exact kind of proof would you require in order to believe in God then? Please describe this to me in detail.....
Do you think after coming back from a war, that there are more religious people turning atheist or more atheists turning religious?
@@j0hncon5tantine "head priests", based on that alone this is hardly worth my time as you're clearly diluted. However, here we go.
Richard Dawkins isn't talking about types, he's talking about a spectrum of theistic probability.
Your example is ridiculous. You twisted what I said in order to dishonestly push a narrative. When I say "people who don't watch sports" it clearly implies I'm talking about people who aren't interested in sports, and thus, don't watch it. If you're too dense to figure that out and it was just an honest mistake, let this clear that up for you.
Now, you could define people into types of non-sports enthusiasts. There are people who don't like sports that eat meat, others that do. To label them "sport non-enthusiasts who eat meat" is a ridiculous type label.
As far as being convinced of a god, I don't know what it would take. Luckily your god is supposed to be all knowing so it would know what it would take and it clearly failed me on purpose by withholding that.
For war, each person is different. I don't know the stats on that. But I would assume most return atheist based on many accounts of people living through the horrors of war and the knowledge that if there is a god like the one you claim there is, it must actively allow these things to happen while it had the power to stop them.
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Buddha quotes (Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)
So Yahweh is intentionally the “author” of confusion, disproving 1 Cor 14:33 again
WHY -
What a truly useless comment.
@@vgsdomingo1 he's a flat earther
Hell yeah. Love seeing a bulk of your uploads in my subscriptions every single time Matt.
@ThePinwheel
You seem to me like your an atheist, are you one? If so why did you become or decide to call yourself an atheist? What kind of atheist are you exactly? What really sells you on that?
@@j0hncon5tantine Nunya
@@Jett-King Seems to me he's just trying to connect with an atheist to get both sides. Nothing wrong with that
@@goodrobot4818 Seems to me hes just being a smart ass and will just end up saying I'll pray for you
Sounds gay
6:34 so god was basically union-busting xD
So much for free will...
@@monsterram6617 book of jasher has more of an in-depth off Babel and why He destroyed it
shanaye ferguson Was never destroyed. Just not finished.
They wanted to make war with God He could've just destroyed them
shanaye ferguson The book says he did. They were not.
Ooops.
Isn't it strange how 'god's' actions look a whole lot like natural causes?
"Go clean your room." is code for "Your dad and I are going to spend the next ten minutes for ourselves in the bedroom" :)
Thanks for all you do Matt!
many atheists tend to face the story of tower of babel using present observation to judge past like how high the heaven was for example, for them for the fact heaven is now not even visible that means in the past it was the same, they dont even consider heaven could have been close to the earth. based on bible it was close to the earth. its interesting to see people who believe in evolutionism, saying past was the same as present, debunking evolutionism in the process. for me heaven was close to the earth, like it will also be at end of the earth during second coming.
@@helenohenzo2778 atheism has nothing to do with evolution, and there are plenty of Christians who find no contradiction between belief in the bible and evolution.
christians?
they are not Christians,
even the first verse of the bible debunks evolutionism, when it says created.
these people dont even know bible
if they know bible
they would know you cant accept the things of the world like theories
these people read the textbooks assuming it contains science
they use it to reject bible
bible and evolutionism is contrary to each other
created, evolve
death after humans, death before humans
humans created complete, humans came from a cell
earth is 6000 years old, earth is billion of years old
...
Jesus came to because men bought death to the world
evolutionism calls jesus a liar
..
evolutionism is satanism
atheism denies creator aka God
that means they have to have the story of origin,
many assume evolutionism
Been watching your videos for the last years , Matt, and I need to THANK YOU for your good work.
Ur fan from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Ps: I loved your vídeo set up. Better quality, lighting. Congrats.
This story reminds me of Genesis 3:22, where it seems to me God is nervous about humans becoming too powerful. He says there that they have become like "one of us" knowing both good and evil, and he needs to prevent them from eating from the tree of life and living forever, which presumably would make them even more like gods.
Another hypothesis of this story is that the ppl were trying to build a communication device that would "reach heaven". The idea comes from verse 3 where it says, "let us bake brick hard" implying oven cure over sun cured bricks. Ppl have extrapolated an idea that the bricks where made of quartz, gold & other translucent or precious stones that could be used to guide electricity unto some end for communication to the 'heavens'.
@Misty Mouse:
Funny, God leaving items around a garden that produce god-like characteristics.
Like one of the Elohim, yeah. Funny about the story about Saul summoning up Samuel, via the 'witch of Endor' character. In an older translation, Samuel is referred to as an Elohim too, and not as a Nephesh (spirit, in Hebrew)
And the men said "Let us erect a tall Tower of Boner, in the bountiful Valley of Vag beneath the great Booby Mountains." But God was a jealous God, and had penis envy, and cursed their words that they should all be curse words. And the men said "Fuck!"
And the people did fuck, and begat fools, who did read too much into the writings of their fathers, and did cut their children's penises to appease God. And God did laugh, for He is a psychopathic God.
Just a slob like one of us?
Matt you are amazingly articulate. I have watched many videos, but something really struck me with this one. Thank you for putting your time and energy into the work you do
(4:36) The part where God says that he's afraid that if humans work together "nothing will be restrained from them which they have imagined to do" is one of those little gems in the Bible that I love. Pretty awesome that it shows how a so-called "supreme being" has to attempt to thwart their plans early before they get any more heady ideas of working together to do great things. ;) I wonder if the story was originally meant to show how working together is a good thing and was appropriated by the Jewish/Christian myth makers and then twisted to fit their narrative. Edit: I guess Matt points this out later, but, hey, it bears repeating! :)
I think it goes hand in hand with why Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden. That being that God and his crew didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life, pretty much for the same reason: he/they didn't want humanity to have the opportunity to fully realize their full potential. They always breezed over that point in my Bible class. Gee, I wonder why? ;)
The scriptures speaks of 3 rebellion and falls. God asked his creations to do a task and obey his only law, they disobeyed. Pride was the downfall. Angels, Wondering Stars/planets, mankind.
Satan, Saturn, Cain
The duel systems of everything
its not epic. its not like its a true story and God is actually afraid. thats silly and delusional and arrogant. it shows the story is simply not from god and just a tale
"God is not the author of confusion ", and yet, he confounded their languages?
God wrote the most important message to Man on rotting scrolls buried in the desert and then people found them and pieced it together as best they could but they got it exactly right because of divine inspiration. Does that sum it up?
you're talking about the Lovecraft's necronomicon, I assume...
😂🤣
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Buddha quotes (Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)
Cj, I guess that rules out the Bible then, because there is nothing reasonable about it. And teaching people how to beat their slaves and suppress de Vimen is not conductive to the good and benefit of all. Plus this has nothing to do with my original point!
Now the Necronomicon... I don't know. I haven't read that.
The only true god is Thor.
Interesting take and it makes sense.
It got me thinking about that one verse that mentions the nephilim and how there are so many interpolations of what was meant. It has got to be one of the most curious and contrived passages in the bible, for all we know they could have been talking about neanderthals.
Enjoyed it and subbed.
You had me at: "So open your bibles."
Matt. I would love to see you do a structured ‘Atheist Reads the Bible’ series. Start to finish. From what I’ve found, this is hard to come by and I think it would be beneficial to have a breakdown from your perspective/understanding.
Andrew Matt has a lot of these topics covered in this very series: His posts might be a start of this idea of yours (which is an excellent idea, btw!)
I agree with you
Check out The Bible Reloaded on UA-cam (They changed their channel name to Hugo and Jake, but it’s the same channel). Their “Atheist Bible Study” series is notable.
Hugo and Jake have a playlist of all the Atheist Bible Study episodes to make it easy to listen in order.
Check out books by George Lamsa who wrote in the mid 20th century. He is not an atheist, but he does translate the idioms in the bible into understandable English. Just a suggestion.
A plain reading of the Tower of Babel makes it sound like a combination of a couple of things. One, it's an explanation of why different peoples speak different languages. Two, the ancient Hebrews would have been familiar with two types of very large structures. The first are pyramids in Egypt and second, zigurats found in many places in Mesopotamia. Civilizations in that part of the world saw many cities rise and fall. Imagine if you where an ancient merchant travelling to sell your goods and you see a deserted city. You see what's left of huge ancient structures at the heart of the city. What happened and where did the people who lived there go?
We actually have the writings of a real person; the Greek soldier Xenophon, who writes about having exactly that experience when he was in Persia and came across the ruins of an Assyrian city, perhaps Nineveh. No one was living there and the people in the countryside thought it was built by the Medes, though the Medes would have been the people who sacked it, not built it. Xenophon saw these ruins about two hundred years after the Assyrian Empire was destroyed. Other people must have had similar experiences. What a great opportunity for a storyteller to create a story to explain why a city with it's massive structures fell and why its people had scattered like the wind just blew them away. Xenophon was already telling a great story about how he and ten thousand Greek mercenaries marched and fought their way back to Greece after joining an expedition into the heart of Persia so he didn't need to make up any myths about this city, just describe how impressive its ruins were.
Congrats on 100k subscribers Matt, good job!
I just take Occam's Razor to these kinds of things. If language can be explained very well without the additional need of some unfalsifiable supernatural entity then it is unnecessary.
when you ride on a camel for months and months, set up tents in a barren land and find sticks for a fire... after the dates, after the cuscus, after the dishes are washed..... kids are always the same,"daddy tell us a story, please please please"...
Only there is archeology to explain all the stories Merneptah Steele shows Israel in Egypt being slaves tel Dan inscription proves king David lived fish fossils on mountains and whale bones in Egypt desert prove Noahs flood just for starters
shanaye ferguson THe jews disagree with you. And whale bones in the desert is evidence of plate tectonics, not a flood.
Here's why you're wrong, in detail: ua-cam.com/video/vWZtbZGtiGA/v-deo.html
The Merneptah Steel proves nothing. Israel is a Phoenician/Assyrian word for SATURN a Pagan god. Who goes to the synagogue on Saturn day? Saturn is also a symbol of the dark sun (darkness greater than light) fall equinox to spring equinox. Jupiter is a symbol of light (light greater than darkness) spring equinox to fall equinox. The first six DAYS of "creation" are the six months/constellations from the spring equinox to the fall equinox. Chapter one of Genesis starts with Aries at the spring equinox.
Jesus, I (Zeus) and my father Saturn are one SUN. Before Abraham (Saturn - time) was born, I am Uranus.
+shanaye
_fish fossils on mountains and whale bones in Egypt desert prove Noahs flood_
You've _got_ to be a troll. You can't possibly be ignorant enough to believe that, can you? I know that Christians are eager to remain ignorant about everything they _want_ to remain ignorant about, but... there's got to be a limit.
You've got access to UA-cam. You've got access to the internet. Even if you're just 12 years old, as soon as you open your mouth, you're going to get schooled. So, do you really believe that stuff? Or do you just think it's fun to pretend to be that ignorant?
In context, its pretty clear that the Merneptah tablet is talking about Israel as a group of people. That whole section of the steele is listing various Semitic kingdoms that Merneptah conquered during his reign as pharoah, with Israel being mentioned along with several others that are historically known to have existed.
However, shanaye ferguson is still hilariously wrong, because the account given in the Merneptah Steele not only completely contradicts the biblical account (according to Exodus, the Jews immigrated to Egypt and were subsequently enslaved there; according to Merneptah's epitaph, the Egyptians conquered them in their own homeland), but also never even mentions Jews being slaves in Egypt at all. All it ever says is that the Egyptians conquered them and several of their neighbors, and there is archaeological evidence to back this up.
I remember a lecture on the Bronze Age collapse that suggests the Tower of Babel is based on the collapse of Babylon, the abandonment of the ziggurat there and the loss of education and literacy that occurred when society collapsed.
Thank you Matt. The freedom from my religious beginnings your site has provided, is immeasurable .
What I heard is that the myth was based on an actual Babylonian temple. While it was being built, it is said, the economy went south and the project had to be furloughed. It was on furlough for so many years that when they got back to it the language had changed and they couldn't understand the instructions on how to finish it.
Morals taken: 1) if we overcome our differences, cultural and communication barriers, we can achieve great things! (check e.g. the CERN LHC collaboration)
2) god is an a*hole.
"He's not god, he's just an old man that loves pranks"
"Sounds like god to me"
-bojack horseman
My own interpretation of this story would be "Man uses scientific method to do amazing things. God realises his days are numbered, and invents religions [different languages and confusions] to stop them discovering the 'truth'". The paradoxes are delicious!
Funny that all those who oppose these projects are religious zealots.
Is it about jealousy? Or belief in big government?
Don't forget the International Space Station too!
3:50 Gods "word" is copyrighted...? That right there is proof that it is not "Gods" word!!
Congratulations on 100k subs, Matt!
Great video. I would like to know where I can learn more about the problems you mentioned with the thought of a local flood. Have you done a video with more depth to the subject?
Thanks!
I've decided to read into the passage and conclude that the story is actually an allegory for why humans shouldn't try to build churches to "reach god," because that's arrogant. We should instead tear down all the churches and let God do his own thing.
I think the moral of the story is God is not afraid to mess humanity up.
Jesse Williams ... If there were a god....
Turn churches into weed dispensaries.
Jesse Williams---2 things i have issues with christianity....1)the buybull is sincerely unbelievable....2)MANY churches have multi-million dollar ...ESTATES (if you will)......and only use those buildings once or twice a week...........and we have homeless people walking the streets in this country...so no...i don't think there is one good church out there
@@cornerstaple8747 then why doesn't he
Sheeza Mann, God doesn't exist
I like the new set, but with with these sound proof walls your christian neighbour wont hear how their arguments get destoyed!
The arrangement is so unsatisfying that It gave me ptsd
It's more likely to silence the cried of "heathen" from them...
More to the point where did the sounds in the throat come from to make the languages in the first place and how come you are speaking words and not waving hands ~~~~Do you think evolution decided it needed words to survive so we can communicate .....Did evolution decide it needed ears to hear those words ?? LOL
@@Sportliveonline wow, not even sure where to begin with that nonsense lol
ua-cam.com/video/Q8DDIe_2cHM/v-deo.html
Matt thank you so much for helping me wake up I love what you do . I'm sure wife proud of how many people you helped hop over that mental fence to you and family💞
The science-fiction writer Ted Chiang wrote a fascinating novella called "Tower of Babylon," which essentially takes the story of the Tower of Babel at face value and follows the efforts of one man to climb to an actual heaven. One critic called it an example of "Babylonian science fiction." It's a thoughtful exercise (and check out Chiang's "Hell is the Absence of God," which similarly wrestles with the theme of Job).
He stole that story from a fantasy writer... Moses I think his name was .... allegedly
I've seen plenty of videos of theists saying that their God can't reveal himself because that would take away our free will.
But then there's stories like these in the Bible where it appears their God doesn't have an issue stacking the deck against humans.
Lucifer was supposedly in the presence of god and it sure looks like he had free will…theists tend to offer ad hoc solutions that demonstrates they don’t know anything about theism…it’s as if they are making it up as they go
I don't think it's a stretch to read it as God wanting to stop Man from replacing him or merely forgetting about him with Man's own dreams- essentially overthrowing the king and setting up the Republic of Man.
Yes, it is a post hoc explanation of why we all speak different languages, but that doesn't negate the possibility of a secondary message. The explanation can serve the purpose of furthering the general narrative.
Why, for instance could the story not have been "Men all lived together and started fighting and feuding with each other- so God separated them like argumentative siblings, for their own good".
That would be a far more sympathetic characterisation of God, while having the same result.
So again, we are left with the reasonable conclusion that the bible is more concerned with emphasising the need to worship God than it is for telling us how to treat each other fairly and justly.
Nah. God was just scared of people building a tower so high they'd reach heaven and depose him like the tyrant he is. Remember the god of the old testament is not a benevolent god he's a vinctive and jealous god. And deeply insecure, he needs worship to boost his fragile ego.
@@transsylvanian9100 so blind no God did that to spare us and He never picks on us there is always a reason
@@shanayenel Lol. God doesn't exist. These are all fairy tales. Grow up.
@@transsylvanian9100 no you wake up here's proof of those stories Merneptah Steele proves Israel were slaves in Egypt tel Dan inscription proves king David, sennacherib prism proves validity of the bible fish fossils on mountains and whale bones in deserts of Egypt proves Noah flood let me know if you need more proof in archeology or we can move to astronomy or you can see proof in all branches of science watch northwest creation network on UA-cam or Google search these proofs that's being hidden from you I didn't believe either but now there's plenty of proof
shanaye ferguson THe jews disagree with you. And whale bones in the desert is evidence of plate tectonics, not a flood.
Here's why you're wrong, in detail: ua-cam.com/video/vWZtbZGtiGA/v-deo.html
It's all so clear, so easy: a bunch of bronze age priests wanted to explain where linguistic diversity came from and also warn against hubris (apart from their own). So one of them came up with a story loosely inspired by the region's dominant culture's towers. That guy consciously wrote a metaphor, and his (those were even more sexist times, so I'm reasonably sure of the gender) peers understood it as such. The ignorant had their "explanation", the priests had their allegory cementing their power.
My favorite part of a new month is seeing that there are new Matt Dillahunty videos!
It seems clearly to be an imported story to explain why other tribes speak differently. It goes against the concept of God's omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. An all powerful God who knows how the planet and space actually is would, I think, say "Oh look, my funny little creation is trying to build a city with a tall tower. They're going to learn a lot about their fragility by doing that". It doesn't match other descriptions of God's nature and the intervention didn't work long term.
I think people project themselves way too much onto God instead of finding out what he is really like. Jesus died for our sins and rose again the third day.
@@thecobraslayer7723
Thank you for explain ziltch to this argument.
@@isaachinds3736 God split the languages up cause man was putting more faith and trust within themselves instead of God Almighty
This is the story where God shoots himself in the foot ... I will add confusion into the mix haha! Then when it comes time to spread the gospel through written word ....oh shit!!! This is going to be a doooozzzie😂😂😂
Gospels were apparently an afterthought. After the flood, where unexpectedly to God everything turned out exactly the same way like first time, he was like: "Fuck this shit, I will scatter them and pick maybe a couple of guys when things settle a bit." That worked for a while, but then something unexpected happened - the romans. Two generations down the line more jews lived outside israel than in it and it was wild wild west again.
@@KohuGaly the Romans weren't unexpected Jesus predicted it matthew 24 2
shanaye ferguson Not surprising when the Romans were there when the book was written.
Do i get points for predicting the automobile?
Your wrong psalm 19 3
@@antediluvianatheist5262 and how do you know they were there? Was Babylon there when Isaiah predicted them Isaiah 13 1 or their fall Isaiah 13 7 or was king Cyrus alive when Isaiah predicted him Isaiah 45 or was the statue of liberty here before revelations chapter 17 great harlot who sits on many waters that great harlot is ishtar please do a comparison of statue of liberty and ishtar striking resemblance or the fact the bible says she holding golden cup full of abomination doesn't the statue of liberty hold a torch
DO MORE of these types of videos Matt!!!
Nice video, Matt! Thank you.
The book god invented "divide and conquer" and prefers confusion to clarity. Seems this god is more of a nihilist than a creator. Matt always rocks!
Its all backed by evidence Merneptah Steele Tel Dan inscription sennacherib prism just to name a few fish fossils on mountains prove Noahs flood so does whale bones in the deserts of Egypt
@@shanayenelroflmabo. Well fleered
@@danieladiaphorist1308 northwest creation network on UA-cam has more proof
@@shanayenel excellent. Those are always fun. Proving that the folks in that area experience a flood would not be surprising. I have experienced a flood. You probably have too. But i am glad you are enjoying yourself.
@@danieladiaphorist1308 erosional remnants prove a flood too like submarine canyons layer deposits in grand canyon helps as well not to mention mass dinosaur burials with more seashells than dinos help prove my case and don't get me started on 400 pound rounded off boulders and water gaps cutting through granite rock on mountains
A secondary theme, which Matt touched on, is jealousy of power. The first in the Bible , of , course is in Eden where Yahweh didn’t want Eve and Adam to eat from the tree and become like Yahweh Gen 3:5 ( serpent says the “like him”, but everything else the serpent says is true)
I was going to see if someone made this point. There seems to be a general narrative in the OT that certain knowledge is beyond us and should remain off-limits. I think it’s reasonable to suppose a second layer of meaning, like you say, that this God does not want man to expand his own horizons. It’s simply enough that we should accept his edicts and be content in our ignorance. The progenitor of totalitarianism.
Or, to paraphrase some Christian theologies, we were created as miserable beings undeserving of salvation and let's keep it that way.
r wm====snakes can't talk............i think you know this
Sheeza Mann Yes, I am discussing a theme in literature.
The BAbel story seems to be based on memories of (and 'explanations' for) the collapse of the Sumerian Culture's collapse and end of education throughout the region long before any 'Hebrews' existed.
what's that color in your beard?
Do you not think there is an element of explanation of how and why the civilisation of the early Babylonians both came into existence and fell into desuetude. Babylon's cities and ziggurats must have appeared fantastical to tent dwelling sheep herding nomads. How could these people have built such structures why would they have wanted to also if they were so capable why are they not still the rulers of the world. Any history of the generations of men would have to explain where the ancient remains came from. I think this is an explanation of the ruins / remains of ancient Babylon which has been used to explain the origin of languages.
Babylon and other cities like it were still standing when this story was written. I doubt that's it.
Thanks Matt! As an English teacher I actually start with the beginning of the English language and history tells us clearly that it was spoken since the circa 5th century! Meaning that English at least was not instantly created at Babel. The Bible is so full of shit !
Yes the English language evolved into what it is today. Oh no , evolution, another problem for the faithful.
+buzz magister Short and concise is always better than wordy and pretentious.
I always figured this story was added after the fact. The authors of the Bible must have realized at some point they needed an explanation for the diversity of language upon this planet. And since they had no way of knowing language on this planet has been diversifying for 150,000 years, this story was the best they had for an explanation.
I perceive the story of the tower of babel in this way:
If you build a society you must specialize. The doctor heals people. The architect designs buildings etc. etc. They all live in different layers of the tower(society). The doctors can speak well to doctors but badly with architects because their doctor language is incomprehensible to the architects. and both can not really talk to the normal folk in the bottom of the tower. If the people in the top of the tower can no longer convince the the people in the bottom of maintaining the tower, the tower crumbles. As societies are bound to crumble if they can not work together anymore. When society is best is when people can understand each other to a reasonable degree. When that stops, you have not got a society anymore, but just people speaking different languages scattering for the hills.
Just like evolution, language changes when organisms start living in different biotopes. even social or professional biotopes.
If we build a colony on Mars and populate it with a large group of people, these mars humans will change to become better suited to live on Mars. After X amount of years they will become a different species all together and not able to copulate with earth humans. As people living apart can, after a long time, not communicate with each other anymore. One can even say this about marriages.
Your generalizations go too far. The straw-man you create of society as a tower is deeply flawed. Technical verbiage is common within disciplines, that does not stop conversation between people of different disciplines. Gestures, tone, and body language are universal and allow people of different languages to communicate. We now have phone based translator apps.. I'm tempted to say 'the sky is the limit' - but it isn't. Onward! Goat Herders Guide to the Galaxy be damned.
Women don't count... Noah's sons could've had daughters and those daughter had sons and more daughters etc...
Unless you're a woman of any note or significance... It's all sons begat sons and daughters, who son's begat more sons and daughters etc...
Rarely does it state any daughter's begating anyone. *Crazy apologetics 101* .
Its common sense how else would people be born? Women didn't count because of Eve punishment one could even say they were equal to man before she ate apple
shanaye ferguson That wouldn't even be a good reason to devalue Eve. Why every woman that followed?
I think you missed one half when describing this story as the explanation of human languages. I think it's also an explanation for the ruins of the Marduk ziggurat of Etemenanki in Babylon. This way they could point at the real ruins and at the real many languages and use either to verify their story about the other.
Hitchens is gone and as much as I wouldve loved to see Hitch and Matt work together and share ideas, I'm very happy Matt is here to keep up the ruthless momentum of a person like Hitchens. I'm also glad Matt has seemed to valued his health enough to loose weight so we can keep him around to educate us for a long time. Thanks Matt for what you do I and many others really value your work.
thanks for your efforts matt
Love how you break it all down Matt. One thing I wish to peeve about though. When giving simulated quotes, saying "Oh..." Is dismissive, and imho weakens an argument.
The story to me just meant that god (the church) didn't want anyone to achieve anything because knowledge=arrogance and arrogance=bad.
I always found it the stupidest story in the whole bible and I read how Lot's daughters drugged and raped their father and teaching people that if you show a hint of empathy and compassion that you deserve to be turned into a pillar of salt.
Babel topped that story for me because he taught an entire people that it is virtuous to not have goals that involve improving life as we know it because then we play god and we see and hear it even today, thousands of years later. How many times have we heard the excuse that we shouldn't play god when people's lives were at stake and that story was used as an excuse? Fucking disgusting and a fucking stupid lesson to learn people unless you want to treat them as cattle and slaves.
The fact that Lot's town was apparently ruined by god because people apparently enjoyed having sex and that people still get their knickers in a twist about it is a close second to me. It ruins about as many people's lives in a horrible manner, but it at least doesn't undermine scientific and technological progress, which in turn can destroy the stupid ideas we have about sex and sexuality, so I'm voting for the story of Babel as the stupidest in the bible with Lot's story just behind in second, especially because both stories are _far_ too relevant today and it pisses me off that we're still so fucking stupid and narrow minded.
Setekh the people in lot town were sex addits they when after everything. Be it men and women and children they when after. The was no control they were people with problems and they were not planning on changing.
The NIV is COPYRIGHTED? Am I the only one who thinks its weird that you can technically get sued for quoting a particular version on the Bible?
Now atheist, once hardcore Christian apologist here. The only credibility I can think that lends itself to the arrogant wanted to be in control thing is the idea of the tower itself. In those times it was considered not only impressive to have massive structures/buildings, but also a sort of symbol of power and usually related to some sort of religious dominance or reach of influence. So having a tower that seemingly went up into the sky would certainly give that effect. Also it would be able to be seen from very far away, providing two benefits: one, keeping the people together, they always know where their central meeting place is and have a sense of connection to it;
two, it would most likely be seen by others who are not apart of their community, it could be intimidating to enemies, but also might instill a bit of awe and make them more likely to convert to their religion or listen to their political leaders.
xX1Mankrik3Xx oh ye of little faith if you tell a mountain to move it can move. In order words men kind had more faith then now so they just believe they could so they did. It is like this one Chinese kid who believe he can throw cards like in the movies and split fruit and now he can. You can look it up. They secert is that mankind is made in God image so they are to the core creators capable of creating universes. Remember that statement "don't you know you are gods? " From Jesus that was what he was trying to say. Once you think about it it made sense why a bunch onf mini gods working together with only faith is kind of very scary. Think about it. That is why until mankind was ready to not go crazy with their new found abilities they to just think of themselves as just weak and normal.
I have been avidly debating a Peterson supporter on this exact topic. Thank you for putting it more clearly than I had been able to.
I enjoyed this!
Coming from an independent baptist background, I was taught that the tower of Babel was intended for the worship of false gods (i.e. idolatry), and this was why the people were cursed.
The preacher said that the words "may reach" in the text (whose top "may reach" unto heaven) were in italics (KJV of course!), which means that these words were not in the original text.
Therefore, he taught that this passage could be understood as "whose top unto heaven". In other words, the top of this tower was not trying to reach into heaven, but was dedicated to the worship of "heavenly deities" - stars - the zodiac, etc.
We were taught that this tower represented the beginning of the "world system" (secularism) or the system of Babylon and the antichrist, which continues to be in direct opposition to God's system.
You're right - you can read nearly anything you want into this story. It makes the most sense to say it was simply an origin story of languages. "When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense."
a sincere appreciation of your arguments & dialectic & debates & humour & irony & fierceness
Hitchens is missed
But Matt !
you are a here !
a much needed continuation of such "elucidations"
#MattDillahunty
#thankYou
what i don't get is why scatter them when they would eventually populate the earth eventually? maybe slower cause they build more compact and efficiently, but wouldn't that be better?
I wonder if there's more in one of the 66 books that make up the bible, what do you think Matt?
Mr. Dillahunty ! you're making my dad an atheist now
reconnecting in my mid-20s, we're now bonding over debating youtube philosophy videos. lol
I got him amused with DarkMatter2525, those cartoons crack him up till his fake tooth falls out, but I think he respects you most, cause you talk alike.
(he's Harvard and Stanford educated with a law degree, but realizing at 60 he's never directly had anyone question his Catholic beliefs, and moral epistemology from childhood.. )
We just met last week to go to a lecture with Wynton Marsalis -- my dad was bummed he didn't pull out his sax -- but he was a good speaker, EXCEPT that when he spoke a lot of old testament analogies for modern social issues, he took some pretty egregious liberties with the Tower of Babel story as a lesson that we all need to be more humble and communicate better so we can build something together or it'll all come crashing down around us... except for that God in the story wrecked the ambitious project that had people united and cursed us for communicating too well... So I had to point that out after. Most people who proclaim in biblical references don't seem to have read them recently. it must be like a game of telephone after a while of parroting each other... and trying to reform the message into something that could possibly seem acceptable by modern standards.
Omg really?
I didn't even know that. are you serious? Atheists secretly Do believe in what you believe, but just want to trick others not to believe in it using their devilish logic and reasoning ?
wow, after all this time taking people at their word when it comes to their beliefs or lack thereof, I never thought to make this obvious assumption.
But it makes so much sense when you say it. Of course!
ugh. I feel so gullible and betrayed to know the truth of their lies now.
Thank you,Thomas. You may have saved me.
Truly, you deserve your namesake. You've done the doubting, so I may just take your word for it.
15:49 Answer to contradiction - the texts chronologically overlap. Chapter 10 has a chronological reach beyond the birth of Peleg, for instance Ioctan would have been born after him, but first part of chapter 11 only reaches up to that point.
The verse just cited at end of chapter 10 means, when the dispersion happened, the main 72 branches of mankind did not each in itself get internally separated, they just all got separated from each other.
I remember as a kid I asked a question in Sunday school about how could anyone live so long? They made me stand in the corner face first that was the day I was labeled a problem child and got worse from there:)
The Tower of Babel referred to a written language, not just a spoken language. The Babel Text (employed by Stone Age people) used a simple geometric code where astronomical values were converted to a angular values. The same angular values are found in geometrical patterns all around the world. In the Americas,. In Australia, In Siberia, In Africa, and in Europe.
Great vid Matt. Just one small and pedantic correction. At 14:19 you misspoke and said Noah instead of Abram.
Correct. Thank you
'Clean your room' has a hidden meaning?
Could it mean mum & dad are going to plough the field, play doctor & nurse, or have an argument?
“Woah! Humanity, you’re actually working together, you guys finally figured it out... *we can’t have that*
I wouldn't be so sure Matt, See if you look deep into the subtext, it's easy to understand how the "tower" symbolizes our attempts to climb and ascend towards what Jung called the Father figure. And how the dissemination of different languages symbolizes all the complex substratifications between different hierarchical factions within and across cultures to penetrate what would seem to be a common yet insurmountable goal. That is to achieve a perfection of being though the metaphorical substrate of an archetypal narrative.
Now go back and read it in Kermit's voice.
Oh yea, I forgot, DOSTOYEVSKI!!!!!!
I wonder what the Greek, Hebrew, Arabic concordance is? Just in case the it reads differently or mean something different. Idk
A unified culture sounds kinda nice, plus the monolithic structure is also interesting, this is one story that really makes god look evil.
Speaking of the tower of Babel, I just started watching Babylon 5 again from the beginning. Been years, its my favorite show.
Love your videos Matt, but why do you pronounce Abraham as Abr'am. There are three syllables there. I think I might have OCD.
His name was changed in thr bible. In beginning of the story he was Abram.
Wonderful sermon Matt.
“God is not the author of confusion”
*proceeds to confuse everyone at tower of babel*
Could you do a "biblical series" of lectures as well?
What's the story Dillahunty, is it keto?
Am I mistaking when saying that taking things only at face value is not rational? One might miss something important.
We are descendents of people that saw beyond facts, they saw potential, future value. A rock is not a just a rock, it's an arrow head, a knife, just as a piece of wood is a spear, a fire, and so on. I know the analogy is at best crude, but if it makes you stop and think that a word is not just a word, it does the job.
A fair reading, of any text, from my standpoint involves never closing any doors. This ensures that the possibility of recognizing value where it seems to absent at first. As Mat says, a good place to start is a plain reading of the text, however, it shouldn't be the end. Everything that follows cannot be plain since it relies on interpreting it in some way and context.
To say that this story is an explanation for the multitude of languages, is just fine, it may well be so. It may be the only intention people who wrote it had at the time it was created. It does not mean that there is nothing else true or valid in it. The truth, and validity of the statements is not dependent on the intent and knowledge of the person(s) that utter it.
So here is my simple take on the not so simple story:
A united group of people, attempting to replace the principle under which it is united (knowingly or not), at best faces a risk of falling apart.
I see this statement as valid regardless of context, it's generaly true.
Authors of the story attribute the consequences to a deity. This is not something that I consider problematic, especially knowing the proclivity humans have of assigning causal actions to agents (know or unknown).
Principles that unite us are buy no means obvious.
One should carefully tread through known lands, suspicious of certainties, for one might miss something of value.
Sincerely
Atheist
This is some absolutely next level debating.
By the way, Matt, have you heard of the Genesis Park project? It's meant to be putting together "evidence" that humans and dinosaurs were created together and co-existed in this world. I'd just love to hear you interview/debate Dave Woetzel, its Creator (heh heh).
Very cool to get a Bible lesson from you. I always wondered how you didn't get the urge to convert to Catholic before atheist. You obviously have studied the Bible in great depth. Matthew 18 15-18 describes a disagreement between church members. Certainly you had to see your faith at the time you read this passage as the one viewed as a tax collector.
God gives “free will” and when people who were created in his image act on that “free will” he interjects REGULARLY!
He also takes our free will away when he chooses to. According to the Bible's portrayal of god, we are just his toys.
Well, we built the International Space Station that's been orbiting way above what any tower would have risen, for many years. And, I didn't see any gods or goddesses trying to prevent it.
Love your explanations here. I also thought it silly to think you could reach some place in the sky through a tower....even as a kid I wondered where they were headed. Nowadays, it is about being in alignment with the proper 'frequency' or 'vibration' to 'get there'....lol (p.s. it may have been that even then the UFOs were prominent and they wanted to build a landing pad!) lol an even funnier thought is that if the Noah story was known by everyone, they may have been afraid of another possible flood and wanted to have a high tower to climb away from the waters! Well, fodder for a comedian, right?
It seems that the nine verses could have been placed anywhere. Could this also be a metaphor concocted by religious leaders - at some later date - to keep the people in check: "we don't want you to become too smart and organized because you may decide we don't have your best interests at heart or you may not believe what we say or have said. You must do what we say or suffer consequences."?
It's a bit of a re-hash of the tree of knowledge story, to my mind.
Another great post but Babel is pronounced as in Stable or table. Maybe you across the pond pronounce it different to us . Keep the good work up!
Go clean your room could mean go clean up your life and live right.
18:14 Neither punishment, nor arrogance is explicitly stated in the text.
I never saw this story as any more than a Just So Story ( like how the leopard got his spots) explaining why people speak different languages.
I apologize if I'm responding too quickly and Matt addresses this later on... I have heard and believe that they were trying to build a one world government, not as much cooperation as tyranny.
They unlocked Jolly Cooperation... if only I could shine so incandescent