Jedi Survivor vs Jedi Fallen Order: Villain Comparison
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- Опубліковано 4 сер 2023
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Who did villains better, Jedi Survivor or Jedi Fallen Order? Join me for a breakdown of the character arcs of Trilla (second sister), Dagan Gerra, and the twist villain in Jedi Survivor.
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#starwars
#jedisurvivor
#jedifallenorder - Ігри
With Dagan I kind of filled in the blank that perhaps he and Sentari were secret lovers (or he wanted to be)? And he wanted Tanalor to be a home for a new kind of Jedi where they could be together. So it was simple ambition, plus love and emotions driving him. Then a few hundred years in bacta in a semi conscious dream-like state he probably went insane trapped with only his own thoughts and dreams.
Is Bacta sleep not totally unconscious? I admit I didn't even realize it was possible before playing this game. I believe you, but that seems like a serious failing for something apparently built to keep people alive for centuries.
@@master_samwise Well Dagen does just come out and say that Cal is something that shouldn't be there when he was waking Dagen up so its possible that he was reliving those moments the entire time he was asleep.
@@master_samwise he wasn't really asleep... it's more of half awake and helpless. it's like coma but is aware of time passing by but wasn't sure how long. it's like being trap inside a room of extreme darkness, and you can't talk to anyone beside yourself but is being feed enough. and you can't do crazy things so you are trap in your own thoughts. there's a lot of force echo that kinda hints what he and santara were... it's more like unrealize love and he had so much plan for tanalorrr hence his obsession and strong attraction towards it. even if he comes back with santari gone and nihil's destruction of what's left he ain't getting anything there aside from escaping the empire. I feel like he just wanna get there and reminisce... dagan had so much untapped potential for character growth and so on.
He was going crazy before he went into bacta. My first playthrough I almost thought tanaloor was supernatural somehow making him obsessed.
@@travisscottlover911 yeah same, I thought maybe tanalor was similar to the planet Mortis which was basically a ball of supernatural concentrated force. Or similar to Dathomir which is naturally strong in the dark side of the force. Maybe we'll see that play explored in the sequel
The story of Jedi fallen order is better than surivior, however I think the survivor gameplay is better
Couldnt agree more
Completely agree. The problem was the game had 2 stories. The Empire one and the High Republic one and the High Republic one just wasn't that interesting
True.
Agreed, the light saber combat, and the new skills are just too good.
100%. I pretty much liked everything better about Survivor except for the story. Not that it was bad, I just thought Fallen Order was much stronger
When we just killed Dagan, my immediate thought was, “wait that’s it?” it didn’t feel like a satisfying end to a major villain more like ehh that just happened I guess, I was hoping they’d flesh him out more or something, but nope that’s just it
Overall Trilla is definitely the best villain in my opinion, Bode is great, but he just comes off as too unrealistically irrational, to the point it kinda took me out of it
Yep, Dagan's death was so underwhelming.
And Bode, well his arc made enough sense, if a bit extreme, but that's where the Tanlorr is corruptive theory may come in. I don't personally think it is meant to be, but it's an interesting thought experiment.
@@master_samwise Honestly, I don't like that theory. It's a combination of fan over-rationalisation and deus-ex-machina to cover up bad character work. Not to mention that, if Tanlorr is corruptive, then building a new life and post for the secret path there would be a terrible idea! We've already had one Jedi game were the main driver of the plot (finding the holocron) turned out to be an _"ooops, shouldn't have done that"_ , having two end that way would be disappointing.
There's no real reason for Dagan to oppose you. The Jedi of old who failed him are dead, he has the chance to build a new Order along with Cal on Tanalorr, and they both see the Empire as bad. Him fighting Cal just made no sense to me, at least Trilla was pissed off at Cere and was brainwashed to be Vader's goon.
I believed the same thing, at first.
Maybe sense he parallels aspects of Anakin, it probably was just his own power, ambition, and gradually thinking more about his wants that made him begin to think 'what's wrong with embracing the dark side to make achieving my goals easier?'.
That’s like saying Malicos doesn’t have a reason to fight you.
@goroakechi6126 Fair point.
With both Malicos and Dagan, you could say the dark side worsened their wrath and self pitty, and it was only the next "logical" step to turn on a jedi.
@@goroakechi6126 Same thing too. Malicos should've worked with Cal.
@@ThreadBareHope1234
Plus, Dagan likely sees you as the last remnant of an order too weak to survive.
One interesting element of Bode’s story is that one of the hidden echoes that appear after finishing the game, found in Bode’s ISB office, has a convo between him and his ISB commander. In it, the commander states he will find the Inquisitor who killed his wife.
Imagine if, in the third game (to round out the Cal games as a trilogy), grown up Kata discovers who this Inquisitor is and embarks on a quest for vengeance, while Cal tries to keep his promise to Cere and “guide her through the darkness” by stopping her. In doing so, he continues to struggle with the Dark Side and nearly succumbs to it in order to save her from her own dark path.
I kinda think that Cal not choosing to try to reach him was mostly because Cal saw his own obsession in Dagan’s and was simultaneously attempting to reject both, but maybe more in a “see no evil” way. I think it could have been portrayed better, but it made some sense as a character flaw in that moment.
I can see that. More of a fear of pulling on that thread in his own character? So he chose to ignore it
Oh for sure, Cal definitely sees in Dagan the extreme end of his own faults. I just wish it had been explored more.
Potential hot take - Dagan should have been a proper foil to Vader and be our mentor and ally, not an enemy.
Seeing a knight of High Republic in this dark and grim time for the Jedi would serve better as a beacon of hope. Dagan offering encouragemenr to Cal, training him and sharing wisdom and tenets of old era would act in a better way than portray him as a failure and, frankly, weakling. Have him and Cere confront each other in their wisdom and experience, where Dagan would advocate for a direct fight with the Empire and in general be a man of action and compassion, whereas Cere advocates patience and caution. Have the two of them influence and impart their wisdom on Cal with neither having a victory in the mental argument.
Then, as Empire attacks, Bode's betrayal kills Cere (imo Cordova presence adds nothing to the game, his role can be split among other characters and nothing is lost) and Dagan faces Vader. We show their clash of conflicts and power, Vader manages to score a kill against a High Republic Jedi Master, we see more conflict put into Vader by seeing Dagan not give in to ambition, pain and loss (have us see Dagan mourn his failure with Tanalorr and his lover but persevere and move on, have him reconcile with Ravis and have Ravis aid Dagan against Vader, die there and Dagan saying farewell to his friend and fighting on with the power of the Light Side).
Overall, I dont think making Dagan a villain is a good idea, he is a weak villain and would work much better as an ally and a foil and contrast to Vader proper
We sort of have that type of mentor ship with Satarii Krii in different Jedi temples.
As always a great video. Did you know that you can find Force echoes of Bode after finishing the main Story? Those are scattered at places you explored with Bode and tell the Story of Bode before and during the story of the game. I think they really add to the character of Bode.
Best villain has to go to Bode for me
I personally think the corrupting influence that’s being hinted at is not Tanalor and instead the dark side of the force. That’s a big focus of the game, and it shows how those who use the dark side are driven to irrationality and single-mindedness. And it made sense to me that Cal wouldn’t try as hard to redeem Dagan, just as he didn’t the ninth sister. Especially since Dagan’s reasons for turning to the dark side were much less sympathetic than anyone else in Cal’s story thus far.
In that context the conflict between Cal and Dagan made sense to me as Dagan seemed to treat Cal as a representative of the Jedi Order, which he had come to despise.
If you take battle scars into consideration (personally I wouldn't) we can say the 5th brother was Cal's encounter with such a jedi. I'm not sure about malicos.
If only Cal able to persuade Dagan Gera back to the light side, then they are cooperating and building Tanalorr together and suddenly Bode stab and kill both Dagan and master Cordova. The story will be much better.
I love the IDEA of Dagen. A Jedi from the High Republic, returning to a galaxy where the Jedi, his former enemy, are gone and the empire, his new enemy, has arisen. I only wished we had gotten actual scenes of Dagen confronting Imperial forces like troopers, Inquisitors or even Vader. A returning High Republic Jedi who is even more powerful than most clone wars era Jedi would’ve been BIG news for Palpatine and Vader to know about
An old republic Jedi master would be a HUGE ass threat to Vader and Sidious for one they be the challengers while the Jedi be the boss.
Dagan Gera is definitely simplistic for the reasons you gave, but is that necessarily bad?
Dagan Gera is another fallen Jedi, and he is a foil to Cal. As you note yourself, Dagan has a nearly identical motivational to Cal, and further, both have absolute obsession with their end goal.
A lot of the rest of the game focuses, exploring why the Mantis crew split apart. Why Cal's obsession drove them away despite the very real love they all share with eachother. Dagan may be a simplistic character, but in the context of Cal's story, he serves as the personification of what Cal may become.
This comes to its apex after Dagan's death with Bode's betrayal. As you note yourself, Bode is similarly obsessed with his goal. And notice that this led Bode close to the dark side. Just like Dagan. Just Cal.
At the end of the day, Dagan's purpose is less to be an interesting character, and more personification of the absolute obsession of the dark side that both Cal and Bode are hurtling right towards.
You’re not wrong, but would it not have been better if he was all that and STILL an interesting character?
@@master_samwise definitely, but it also has to he considered that effort to make sure an antagonist personal and complex was put into Bode, rather than Dagan. If effort was put onto Dagan beyond the lore-hunting available for him (I don't count easily missed collectibles either), it would have either come at the cost of other elements of the story (such as Bode), or would have harmed the facing.
Dagan didn't need to be complex or personal. And while I agree that first confrontation could have been handled better (though I don't mind it), Dagan works for his purpose as a foil and warning to Cal. More time of Dagan may improve his character, but I don't think it necessarily would have improved the story.
@@freewyvern707He was an unnecessary villain.
@@grahamstrouse1165 I feel he was necessary as to provide a thematic contrast to Cal
@@freewyvern707Plus he really have ego that he thought that he can own a planet till wondering what so special about Tanilorr.
Trilla is IMO the best villain Star Wars has ever had, it used to be Dooku, but his charicterization in the clone wars show kinda ruined him as a sympathetic character. Trilla felt like a constant threat, always looming over the story, a shadow who could appear at any moment. She managed to be sympathetic and yet menacing, she was intelegant enough to be well worth worrying about, and ruthless enough to feel like a threat to your friends. The way shs unwravelled toward the end was just perfect, seeing her go from calm and constantly in control to almost insane was just cathartic. Dagan, Rayvis and even Bode can't hold a candle. Dagan and Rayvis are jokes to me and Bode just isn't intimidating, which is fine, he doesn't have to be, he leans more into sympathy, but that misses out on the balace struck by Trilla.
I disagree, Trilla didn't feel like a big threat to me at all. Outside of the first time she came around she had no impact and never accomplished anything in trying to stop the main character. Then they try to make me feel bad for her being evil? Nah you can't use cheap emotional crap like that at the end of the game to try to get me to feel bad for a murderer.
@@Ronfost89 You're entitled to your opinion, but I think most people would disagree.
The ROTS novelization already robbed Dooku of any sympathy I had for him. The guy was a raciest who wanted to screw over alien races and rob them of all their resources because he viewed them all as inferior. On top of that he wanted to steal kids from their families in order to have recruits for his Sith order. Say what you will about the Jedi, but they only took infants who had their parents permission.
@@alecjackman2655 How do you compare the novelization of Revenge of the Sith to the movie version?
@@mazkeraid4039 The novelization is confirmed as canon to movies so it’s only fair that one can take character statements and internal thoughts as legit.
I wrote an essay compiling my thoughts and analasis of Trilla, and I thought I'd share it with you.
Trilla isn't just by far the best inquizitor, she's one of the best villains in all of Star Wars, she perfectly balances being truly ruthless and terrifying with being deeply sympathetic and complex. She's like a streamlined version of Vader, creating the same effect, perhaps even more effectively, in one game rather than six movies and a show.
When we meet her she's seemingly sadistic and truly frightenning, killing Cal's best friend without hesitation, threatenning to massacre a group of civilians because a Jedi might be there. Then she hunts Cal mercilessly and effortlessly recognises his stance, much like the grand inquizitor does, showing her knowledge. Then she taunts Cal in the way she easily identifies will hurt him the most before schooling him in combat. When she sees Cere, we see that moment's hesitation, followed by an unrelenting attack, already hinting at her depth, and the lengths she'll go to achieve her goal, even being inside the ship doesn't keep Cal safe.
When we encounter her again on Zeffo, she knows everything about us, demonstrating her diligance and tanacity before we once again fight and lose. We get her reveal that instantly changes everything and makes us question Cere, followed by a display of her intellegance, slicing our comms with ease and then leading us into a trap before using us to raise the tomb for her, revealing that we only lived that long because she wanted us to.
From that point on, although Trilla doesn't appear much in the story, her presence is constantly felt, it feels like she could be waiting around any corner to strike, she's always a step ahead, killing the rebels Cal previously faught alongside before we even get there.
Finally, her masterstroke, where she repeats a trick we already fell for once by using us to get the holocron for her. This fight shows how far ahead of us she is, but it also shows her begin to unwravel, at the start she was completely calm and in control, but Cere being back in play has thrown her off balance and her mask of control starts to slip, allowing Cal to briefly get the upper hand on her. We then learn why she's an inquizitor and it's one of the most haunting and understandable backstories in the franchise, her reasons for what she's doing make sense.
Finally, when we confront her at fortress inquizitorious, she once more sets a trap, only this time, it's not that well-thought out, rather than confronting us with an army of purge troopers, she does so herself, showing how much Cal has gotten under her skin. As with the last encounter, she comfronts us with both blades, showing that she is done toying with us and is out to kill.
The longer the fight goes on, the more she begins using tricks, pulling out flash grenades and probe droids to back her up, she also begins grunting in her attacks, showing her despition and lack of composure as she starts relying on strength more than finesse.
It is because of her unwravelling thay Cal is finally able to defeat her.
The next question is why? Why did she fall apart so much at the end, well I think it's because of the holocron. She's never hesitated killing Jedi, the empire's conditioning and Cere's betrayal let her justify all that to herself. But when she learns of the holocron, she slowly finds that she can't justify subjecting more children to the same torment as herself, and that causes an internal battle within her, she becomrs conflicted between the empire's conditioning and what she knows is right. By the final fight, she's desperately clinging to the one thing she can still justify: her hatred of Cere.
She says things like "suffer, as I have", showing that she's lost track of any reason for what she's doing and is just lashing out. She also says "I'm stronger now because of the pain." This is her looking for meaning in her own sufferring, in her own situation, trying to tell herself that it was all for a reason, that she's more than a victim and a monster.
It's why when she's humbled, and Cere finally apologises to her, that last thread snaps and she comes back to her senses. I think what people misunderstand is that Trilla wasn't brought back to the light by Cere, or Cal, she did it herself, throughout half of the game we witness as - in the background - she slowly unwravels and breaks free from the empire's brainwashing, all Cere did was give her that last push to let go of the hatred that kept her in her toxic mindset, because she herself already brought down all her other pillars of justification and conditioning. If Cere had apologised and Cal had defeated her on Bracca, I don't think it would have changed anything, it only works because of her own character arc that's happenned in the background.
But alas, the empire still refuses to let her go, they stole her mind, her autonomy, her soul, and then finally, they steal her life before she ever gets the chance for redemption.
To me, Star Wars has always been about redemption, what it means and how it's brought about, and I think Trilla's is the greatest redemption arc in the series. This is because she is only redeamed once her specific reasons for being evil in the first place are targetted and knocked down, not just because something better came along that pulled them to the light. Trilla's redemption is slow, complex, and most importantly self-performed. Because the only person with the power to redeem her, was her. And unlike in other cases, death wasn't her redemption, she didn't sacrifice herself, her death wasn't what redeamed her, it was what death really is, a cruel force of nature that takes all of a persons potentual for the future, and discards it. And that is the tradgedy of Trilla.
So who is the best inquizitor? There is no contest, Trilla Sudari is not only the best inquizitor, but the best character to ever come from disney star wars.
Dude, Bode has got to be one of my favorite characters in Star Wars PERIOD. There are several moments in the story that subtly hint to him hiding something before his betrayal actually happens, that involves both good acting and good writing. While I am sad he was killed off, thinking we didn’t get enough of him, I am at least happy my man got some form of a respectable send off via a funeral.
Also, mad respect to Samwise for not spoiling said betrayal in the thumbnail even months after the game’s release. I’ve been spoiled four or five major plot points BEFORE the game launched.
Great analysis as always!
So i'll try to be the dagan defender person here
. in regards to him attacking cal
when dagan is bleeding the crystal cal rather aggressively grabs and turns him upon which the crystal becomes bled and pushes him away rather than calming him down cal immediately ignites his blade and is hostile upon which the paranoid dagan who feels he was betrayed by the jedi becomes convinced that once again the jedi are betraying him which is why he starts attacking even when cal offers him peace dagan is too suspicious despite him having a potential ally of great power resulting in him rejecting cal
in general the game has a message about survival and how various characters change for the worse and for better in order to survive in a world where the empire is constantly making moves against them
some people like rayvis are bound by their honor codes which ultimately sees them die
cal bode and dagan all become more violent and brutal in the face of what they lose pushing their loved ones away more and more as they embrace the dark side and the power it grants ( call pushes the crew away, bode pushes his daughter away and betrays his friends, dagan is antagonistic to his lover and even his close friend rayvis) ultimately dagan is what cal would become if he was the same remorseless killer a feral lunatic who attacks and hurts everyone who could help him . ( note that he beats gera by exploiting the betrayal of the woman who he loved and his ptsd from said incident) bode is what he would become if he chose to fight out of a singleminded focus of keeping one person safe
admittedly, it's something you can only think about "in hindsight", but the last thing Dagan Gera knew before being put into bacta sleep was being denied, then betrayed by the Jed; specifically his love, physically maiming him. So the only thing he could dream about, for two centuries, was that betrayal and the denial of everything he had worked towards. It became a self-feeding loop that would cause his anger to grow and grow. Hence going straight to a bleeding once free.
As for why Cal was less redemptive in Survivor: in the first game, he had lived, if not freely, then safely, for the last 5 years. He had friends, he could rest, he had shelter. In Survivor, his found family had split apart, he only had fighting the Empire. Cere, Bode, Greeze, and even Eno call him out on that, in subtle to not-so-subtle ways, across the story. When the fight is the only thing, it becomes easier to give in to things that would make that fight easier. Cal's close to the dark side; that's why he falls a bit, and uses Dark Side powers near the climax on. Bode's actions were just the breaking point.
I think I agree that Cal being less redemptive makes some sense. He has definitely gone down a bit of a dark path, like you say. Really interested to see where his arc goes in the next game.
@@master_samwise Plus, there were extenuating circumstances for why Bode got all the "second chances" he did: an innocent being involved, Kata. The other characters? they get one chance, and one chance only, in Survivor. Ninth Sister gets that one chance tested when Cal calls her Masana Tide; she fails, and he quickly decapitates her. Dagan Gera? He had his one chance, and promptly bled his crystal. Bode only gets his chances due to Kata. If it weren't for her, it would've been more than a double-tap.
Heck, compare/contrast to Rayvis; from his first showing in the story, he shows that although he is an enemy, he has an honor code, abides by it, will not violate it, and will not harm those who are not fighters. Even his death is by his own choice and will; Cal respects him, gives him chances, because he holds true to it. While every other character who gets those single redemption chances violates their own code one way or another, particulary the Jedi one.
Trilla seemed like a weakling who just had her position as one of Vader’s lackeys. Dagan seemed like a formidable threat because of his mastery of the Force as a very powerful Jedi. His disdain for the Jedi after feeling betrayed is palpable. And I liked his even greater disgust at the Jedi Order when he makes some comment about how weak the Order had become if they let such a weak enemy (the Empire) overtake them.
I liked Dagan a ton more than Trilla. The story was a little tighter in Fallen Order, but I think Dagan was a better and more formidable opponent.
IMO, Dagan is meant to serve as a warning to Cal of the dangers of clinging too closely to the past, while Bode is a lesson in not letting attachments overrule your sense of reason and empathy. Cal struggles with the latter more heavily in this game (especially with the loss of Cere and Cordova, and Merrin becoming his love interest), so they might have made Bode a more developed villain than Dagan to reflect that.
I feel like Dagan as a character could do with a novel delving deeper into his character, set during the high republic telling his full story with Santari and Tanalorr. It's no real substitute for him being done well in the game, but it would at least serve to elevate him as a character in the Star Wars lore as a whole. I always took it as Dagan's long stay in the bacta, partially conscious for 200 years, drove him insane, as he relived all his worst memories and the betrayals of the jedi and Santari over and over and over again. That's why Cal saw that when he touched the bacta, and why Dagan said "I saw you." Cal got a glimpse into Dagan's experience in the bacta and somehow showed up in Dagan's personal hell of memories. Then first thing Cal tells Dagan is that everyone and everything he knew and loved was gone, so now all that's left for dagan is his obsession with Tanalorr. That at first ambition was twisted and strengthened by centuries reliving the betrayals until he was driven insane.
Dagan could be a fine villain, the problem is that he's not the antagonist to Cal, but to Santari Khri. There's strong hints of a relationship there, which (along with Tanalorr) would make for a good exploration of how Jedi cope with attachment. As it is in the game, he's someone else's villain, not Cals.
My issue with Bode is that I just didn't buy his closeness to Cal. He went from gun-for-hire-on-his-first-job-for-the-rebellion, to best friend. He has a few lines of good dialogue, but for the mid-game he's entirely forgettable: no more than side kick #2. His importance to the plot and the gameplay is tiny compared to, say, Merrin. I was expecting him to betray Cal as soon as he distracted the Tie fighters when leaving Corruscant, the surprise was that they waited for so long that I'd mostly forgotten about him by then. That he turned out to be a secret Jedi was unexpected, but a groan inducing way - can we have *any* story beat in Star Wars that doesn't involved yet another Jedi surviving order 66? At this point the purge is starting to look like a complete failure, and the Rebellion awash with Jedi before Luke ever shows up.
Also love how Rayvis is mentioned for all of 3 seconds in this video, which shows just how forgettable he is despite looking like he's the main villain in the first act.
Didn't Order 66 had even more survivors in legends?
10 000 jedi slain leaving roughly about 100 or less by that point since we can include the inquisitors being former jedi.
I really wish Dagan could have started off as an ally but as time goes on in the game it's clear Dagan and Cal's goals and viewpoints clash too much so they become enemies.
Hoes before Bros is the message of Jedi Survivor
The same "Bro" who shot what was essentially a father figure in Cordova?
How about you reread the sentence
One thing that I think could have made dagen a more interesting villain is if when he was put in the bacta tank he never lost consciousness. He would only be able to think of tanalorr and his hatred for the jedi, so that when he comes out he is borderline deranged. This makes more sense as to why he lashes out at cal, as well why his only goal is to reach tanalorr.
Id love a video on Cal's embracing the dark side and what that could mean for his character.
I think why Cal didn't help Dagan was because Cal couldn't control his own pain and his fight. Dagan was too far gone and Cal could've sensed it.
Quick add on question but did you post game get all the post ending Force echos everywhere. They add a layer of complexity to Bode and Cal where Cal quietly remarks "They were afraid of me" of the Imperials he killed at 1 echo
I don't think I've played the game since finishing the story, but that's good to know. One day I'll hopefully go back and 100% it.
@master_samwise Just carry on your old game, you'll find lots of Force Echos from Bode and Denvik etc all over the various planets
When I killed Dagan I didn’t even realize he was dead and kept waiting for him to show up again.
I feel like the central "point" of Survivor was trauma and living with it. Every character in the game is living with some form of trauma and coping with it differently. Cal has lost the crew of the Mantis and done horrible things in Saw's service, Cere lost her apprentice who she was responsible for her turn to the dark, Greez lost an arm, Marin lost a lover in the book between the games, Degen (felt) was betrayed by the Jedi Order, and Bode lost the order AND his wife in Order 66.
Everyone is different from who we knew before because they are dealing with horrible trauma in their own way and slowly return to who we knew before except Cal who just gets more trauma piled on. Cal makes probably the most drastic fall, such as his fight with Second Sister, he offers her sympathy, the "join me" shtick like Luke did but it's more like Palpatine, he kills her without hesitation when she denies him. That is who Cal has become and I think the third game is going to focus on Cal learning to let go of that "I gave you a chance, now you die" ideal that he developed under Saw.
Degen's obsession with Tanalor always seemed rather flirtatious with the dark side and I think he gave in when the female Jedi whose records we see sided with the council against him. He had dedicated his life to finding this place and when he finally had it the Council told him to abandon it after one little stumble. That sucks but he can just out a pin in it. But when his best friend (totally just friends, I swear) also "betrays" him by siding with the council he finally snaps and sinks fully into the dark side. And when he's awoken by Cal he has begun the Vader arc of hating himself because she still cares about him enough to save his life. Cal isn't a person to Degen, he's a totem of the entire Jedi Order because when Degen was around the only Jedi were either with the order or sith. He's refusing to deal with his trauma and is instead immersing himself completely in his obsession and the dark side to cope with his loss.
I actually think Dagan makes a lot more sense than you're making it seem. Dagan's fall begins when his life's work was being actively destroyed by the Jedi. Then we know he kills a Jedi at his retreat. Why he does this is the unclear part, but I personally believe he fell shortly before the events, as this game shows us that the dark side makes one lose rationality. Regardless of the reason, we see he's being hunted down by other Jedi when he loses his arm. He has lost everything worked for because of the Jedi, and also loses his arm and Santari. Thus, when he wakes up and see Cal, another Jedi, he turns. I suspect he would have done so regardless if Cal was present or not though.
And Cal attacking immediately makes sense too, as Dagan casually bleeds his crystal in front of him, something Cal hasn't seen a dark sider do before. Also, Cal does try to negotiate with Dagan, but the first 2 attempts fail before Cal can try in earnest.
Dagan's turn to dark side never made sense to me. It felt so sudden. I get that he was attached to Tantalor and didn't want to abandon it. But to go from this to killing jedi? I agree it was way to sudden and unconvincing.
Also, I don't think (and hope) that Tantalor isn't a place that corrupts people. Even if where true, it would still make Dagan's fall feel cheap.
Cal feels the pull from tha Dark Side because he feels like he is fighting a loosing battle and carrying the weight of resisting a galactic empire on his own sholders. Everytime he fails, he looses people close to him.
This is why the dark side should tempt him! Because it promises a better chance of defeating the Empire and saving his new family. The fear of loosing even more friends is what he must push back in order not to lose himself.
And in order to guard against his fears he needs his family and friends. He needs Merrin. At the end of the game she says she would not let him stray from the righteous path. A caring family's support will aid Cal in his journey to end tge empire and help other persecuted by it.
The way I see it this should be the plot of the next game, not some evil and corrupting planet.
Just finished a replay of jedi survivor. I agree Dagan could have been better developed, and maybe not broken bad so early. You are absolutely right that there is a missing step in his story and I think it was a romance with Santari would have made it so much better. In that case both Bode and Dagan are examples to Cal of how love can enhance their lives, but also be the end of a jedi.
They should do a directors cut for the game were they can fix the character development abit more.
Trilla's helmet makes her look like an evil but cute doggie
So is the better comparison here Taron Malicos and Dagan Gera?
Tanalorr is mine.
This game highlights the dark side much better in my opinion. Cal is clearly contrasted with Dagan but it displays how obesession can blind someone. Whh Dagan is obessesed with Tanalorr? Should've been fleshed out. However, I can see Cal use the darkness to try to extinguish the darkness. Note that he killed the Ninth Sister with no hatred but sadness. Unlike the Second Sister, Ninth wasn't attempting to bring him to the dark side but simply kill him. In a way, Dagan was way off and Cal didn't have the same bond he did with Bode.
Bode is an example of why attachments were forbidden. Passion is literally in the Sith Code and it can bring you to the dark side easily. Once you use the dark side as you do in the game, it becomes tempting, easier to call upon. However, soon you will lose sight of your goal and pursue power for power's sake. There's nothing wrong with Bode having a family but he let his passions encourage his selfishness. Cal also has attachments and the danger of him falling to the dark side was displayed in this game. Not to mention his drive for revenge which is a path to the dark side.
I appreciate this game because unlike many other Star Wars media, the dark side isn't explored (except in Legends).
The droid is mine
"TANALORR..."
The Sintaraussy is mine
Yes, but no, the dark side isn’t a character and doesn’t really have anything to do with Dagan specifically, it doesn’t really serve as an excuse for the lack of characterization and the the way Cal’s character was inconsistent when dealing with him, also he killed the 9th sister at inner peace, not sadness and lastly the no attachments philosophy is fundamentally flawed, it’s one of the many shortcomings of the prequel Jedi order that ultimately led to their demise, because the Jedi weren’t allowed attachments, they were unable to build and deal with them in a healthy manner, Anakin ultimately fell to the dark side among other reasons, because relationships were banned, not because he had one, if the Jedi order hadn’t been as rigid in their philosophy and Anakin could’ve gone to them for help with his fear of losing Padme, he would’ve never felt like Palpatine was the only one who truly understood and cared for him and would never have fallen for his manipulation, the prequel Jedi order had grown rigid and corrupt and so did their philosophy
@thelastbrickbender2139 I would think Cal feels a little sorrow for killing the Ninth, a former Jedi. Peace I can agree with. I do believe Dagan needed to be more fleshed out. I'm not saying the dark side is the antagonist, but rather the way the story is written to include it in such an impactful way.
The no attachments is flawed in how the Jedi deals with it. I don't think I made mention, but Jolee stated in the Knights of the Old Republic game that controlling your passions while in love is what the Jedi should teach you. It was Vader's attachment to Luke that brought Anakin back. However, it was also his attachment to Padme that guided him down a dark path. Not necessarily because he had a family but because he was desperate. Also, he was consumed with the dark side and had such a lust for power that he ended up choking his wife.
Attachments aren't bad, but it's how you deal with relationships you have. I'm not saying Bode was wrong for having a family. However, he did end up launching his daughter across the room because he fought people to protect her.
Even in Legends, because of Luke's attachment to his wife, he was vulnerable. He murdered a woman who he thought had killed his wife. He couldn't kill the one responsible, his nephew Caedus because if he did, he would have fallen to the dark side, blinded by it.
That's what the dark side does. The more you call upon it, even for noble intentions, it will slowly cloud your mind with a lust for power for the sake of power.
I prefer Jedi survivor but I liked Trilla better. Mainly because I think Dagen should’ve been the main villain but they wasted him near the end
If Bode truly cared about his daughters safety he would leave her and severe all contact with her. The empire are after HIM not her
They would have used her to get to him
Love how you hid the last one. That motherfucker got me good, he almost had me thinking he was gonna be another Garrus.
Im still confused what Bodes plan was. Live on Tanalorr alone with Kata? I highly doubt he has the survival skills let alone the survival skills on a planet he has no experience or knowledge about. It would be a worse life than being on the run with Kata
Enjoyable video Sam. I must say I did think this character who I'd never seen or heard of before but who was now Cals best mate was probably gonna betray him at some point. Though as it was done well excuses the obviousness of it.
Plus after watching the post end cut scene, Kata took Cal executing her Dad rather well don't you think 🤔 😂
Dagans motivation makes no sense. The Republic has Millions of planets, why doesn't he simply find another planet instead ?
Also Tanalor in the game doesn't have much but purple plants and Rocks, what's so special about it ?
Final issue was Cordova, he seemed unesscary. Sister Taske could've fill his role just as well and not missed a beat in the game. He even gets a funeral at the end (wasn't he blown up with a grenade) but he might not even be there as the focus was on Cere and Bodes funerals
Well Tanalorr was unreachable by anyone but Dagan and company (supposedly - not sure how the Nihil got there), and apparently was also strong with the force or whatever.
Yeah Kata reacted a lot more calmly than an 8 year old should IMO
@master_samwise Cals motivation for Tanalor being unreachable to escape the Empire makes sense but Dagan 200 years in the past shouldn't need that motivation for a new Jedi Temple start up
@master_samwise Nothing to do with the video but with Ahsoka coming out soon and it's basically a live action Season 5 of Rebels, I wondered if you'd seen any of Rebels yet ?
I gotta admit while I enjoy the Clone Wars I'm not keen on Rebels but everyone is different and I'd love to know your thoughts on it
As far as I understood it, Dagan wanted Tanalorr because he found it and a way to it. It was sort of his passion project. He also saw it as an unreachable fortress that could outlast any conflict. Some comment even pointed out that he maybe thought he could loose the jedi rules a bit there so he and santhari couldve get romantically involved there.
Also I thought Cordova was really adding to the story. Instead of killing off somebody they introduced in this game, they brought back a fan favorite from the first part which felt amazing to me and then unexpectedly killed him off which added to understanding of the hate cal felt towards bode. Killing an ally is bad, but killing a very close friend and mentor? Thats almost unredeemable. So I think Cordova worked wonders in this game.
@@master_samwise In one cutscene they explain that the Nihil probably got hold of a compass on their own.
The problem was dagon not the planet. The other jedi still kept their wits. It was not a defensible position.
I don't think comparing Dagan with Trilla is right. I know they're both the main villain (or seem to be) for most of their respective games, but in this game Dagan is the Cordova, the guy who is the reason Cal is running around the galaxy until the final act where the true villain steals the thing he was after. Because this game had a twist villain, its Cordova had to appear to be the villain. Not that this excuses Dagan's poor writing, it doesn't, but I think it makes more sense to compare him to Cordova. I never found either character particularly interesting (Cordova became much more interesting in the sequel) but both did their job of giving you a reason to be running around the galaxy, developing and learning. I would even argue that Dagan did that better, since while following a lightsaber wielding maniac looking for compasses is simple, it made more sense to me than finding giant marbles to move around to prove to BD's programming that I care enough about the Zeffo to be trusted with the fate of the entire Jedi order. So if we're comparing villains, I don't even think it's worth talking about Dagan, though your analysis of Bode in comparison with Trilla was excellent.
I also thought that Rayvis was a way better secondary villain than the Ninth Sister, who was really just a walking meme.
Thank you Master Samwise. I adored Jedi: Fallen Order and it is very cool to see someone cover the villains
I think dagon didn’t cooperate because the last time he trusted a jedi he lost everything he desired
It would be cool of Cal gets a Disney+ show.
Ehhh... Maybe. If it's like Andor, then absolutely. If it's like Obi Wan or Boba Fett then forget it.
No way if they managed butcher Obi-Wan and Boba fett no one is safe.
Dave Filoni will retcon the living hell out of Cal and make him look like an idiot.
Bad idea Disney has a tendency of ruining character.
What about the Nilhi?!? I never understood why they would massacre the jedi on Tanalor and then just...leave?!?!?!
I be honest Nobody cares about the Nilhi.
16:44 And yet again I gain another reason to love Cameron. The Jedi games have been great and Cal is probably my favourite Jedi with Ahsoka not calling herself one anymore and BD-1 is my favourite droid with 3PO second.
For me I liked Dagan because I resonate with the dark side use more than the Jedi’s light so him being so driven didn’t bother me much. I couldn’t just go with the inability to try working together though, that doesn’t work for me.
Jedi: Survivor is a better game, Jedi: Fallen Order has the better story.
Fallen Order had better villains but that wasn't much of a bar. The villains in Survivor sucked and Fallen Order only had slightly better ones.
I think you should make a proper Jedi Survivor critique and point out how weird the writing in this game is. I think the game is pretty solid, but there are some serious issues with the narrative. Jedi: Survivor commits one huge sin that is impossible to ignore once you notice it: Cal is a ridiculously REACTIVE character in this game and he keeps stumbling into the plot seemingly BY ACCIDENT. Let's quickly recount what happens. After the mission on Coruscant, Cal goes to Koboh to meet Greeze and to repair the Mantis. Just as he is about to enter the cantina, he HAPPENS to meet Rayvis, who HAPPENS to reveal that he's looking for an ancient Tuner Key. Cal then meets Greeze and goes to sleep. After a few hours (maybe 1 day) of sleep, he enters the tunnels beneath the cantina to find a spare part for the Mantis. And just as he's about to collect it, HE HAPPENS TO FALL THROUGH A RANDOM FLOOR and conveniently lands in some ancient Jedi chamber that was lost for hundreds of years. And what does he find inside? Santari's old droid and the exact Tuner Key Rayvis was looking for. Bro just accidentally found an ancient artifact that was lost for 200 years within a day of landing on a strange planet. He wasn't even looking for it! He just happened to find it by sheer chance. And then it turns out that the chamber with the key was literally underneath the cantina this whole time. Rayvis was fkin looking at the entrance in this first cutscene where he wanted to kill Turgl.
The whole Dagan plot line is also extremely bizarre. I played the game twice now and read all sorts of opinions and I still don't understand why Rayvis could not free Dagan in the very beginning. Think about it. He was looking for a tuner key BUT WHY? The key was needed to open the giant gate to the forest and then to unlock the bacta chamber. But 1) Rayvis could have just flown over the gate just like he eventually did. 2) the bacta chamebr was sealed so Raybis was never inside. So how tf did he even know he needed a tuner key to open it? If Rayvis had more than 20 IQ, he'd just fly over to the array and used one of many lightsabers Bedlam Raiders had to forcefully open the chamber and free Dagan. There was no need for any McGuffins here at all. And even if we assume that the tuner key was absolutely necessary, how tf did Rayvis not find it before Cal? All he needed to do is search like 7 Jedi Chambers that are not even hidden.
I would also point out how bad the structure of this game is. Jedha feels like a complete waste of time compared to Koboh and other areas. It's a boring desert filled with random loot and out-of-place open world stuff. And notice that every mission that takes place on Jedha (except for the finale) is some pointless and reactive side quest. Cal never goes there to achieve a clear goal. He always gets caught up in some random BS by accident. First he needs to find Cere's informant and he fools around with Merrin and later he goes on a random side quest to save some no-name and fight with a giant drill thing. During my 2nd playthrough I realized that Jedha is almost completely pointless. The only interesting parts are interactions between Cal and Merrin, but they aren't even tied to the Koboh/Tanalorr storyline. Every time we go to Jedha, it feels like the main story is on pause and we're taking a random detour.
I think not.
I disagree, Dagan's obsession with his achievement is what drove him to the Dark Side. Once his achievement was thrown into the literal Abyss everything he knew and trusted fell apart like a house of cards. Same for Bode, his daughter is everything to him. I believe the main point of Survivor is how obsession will consume everything in one's life.
It's a simple-ish story, sure. But life is damn simple, we just complicate stuff on our journey through life.
May the Force be with y'all.
Totally agree, Fallen Order is overall my favourite game, Survivor is amazing but feels rushed.
bode turning against cal makes absolutely 0 sense, like they could coexist on tanalorr
Expect Bodes wide death changes him. He only cared for his daughter and don't care for those who were fighting against the Empire.
Does it satisfy your question?
@@RRai2000 no, they could live in totally different areas on tanalorr, he could've just not been bothered. it makes no sense
Fallen order is better. The combat was lack luster in survivor. The stances were useless and only had 1 to stance that was usefull. The performance is awfull in survivor and very janky. I was disappointed in the story as well. The combat did not feal as good as in fallen order.
I just disliked bode in the end I never felt like I cared about him like that in start of the game later in the game I started actually liking him and being interested but takes that turn and I hated him like I get that’s kinda the point he stabbed me in the back😂 but I spent so much time with him that felt I was suppose to care when I didn’t i thought that they missed the point and in the fight with bode im NOt sure but he force push’s his daughter and causes merrin to save her idk but I think guy didn’t care even abu his daughter
Dagan's turn to dark side never made sense to me. It felt so sudden. I get that he was attached to Tantalor and didn't want to abandon it. But to go from this to killing jedi? I agree it was way to sudden and unconvincing.
Also, I don't think (and hope) that Tantalor isn't a place that corrupts people. Even if where true, it would still make Dagan's fall feel cheap.
Cal feels the pull from tha Dark Side because he feels like he is fighting a loosing battle and carrying the weight of resisting a galactic empire on his own sholders. Everytime he fails, he looses people close to him.
This is why the dark side should tempt him! Because it promises a better chance of defeating the Empire and saving his new family. The fear of loosing even more friends is what he must push back in order not to lose himself.
And in order to guard against his fears he needs his family and friends. He needs Merrin. At the end of the game she says she would not let him stray from the righteous path. A caring family's support will aid Cal in his journey to end tge empire and help other persecuted by it.
The way I see it this should be the plot of the next game, not some evil and corrupting planet.