Thanks for your insights, I enrolled in the course! Let me take a moment and share my thoughts, based off the video: I personally try to separate technique, skill, and attributes. This is mostly based on my background in martial arts, where we differentiate Kihon (basic technique), Bunkai (application) and physical/mental aspects (attributes). From this perspective, it seems that 5 atomic elements that you have suggested combine both skills and attributes. This is merely an observation, I don't think it changes any of the points you're trying to make. Although potentially skills might be best improved differently from attributes. Also, I have 5 elements that I use myself when I get stuck and can't get past a crux. This is an entirely different objective, but still: could be interesting to compare so let me share: - Limbs / contact points - Position - Rotation - Tension - Momentum / trajectory if I get stuck, I go through variations of questions related to the 5 elements above. It works really well as a tool for reflection and improving microbeta! - Can I get more out of my left hand / arm? - Can I get more out of my right hand / arm? - Can I get more out of my left foot / leg? - Can I get more out of my right foot / leg? - Where was my centre of gravity, in the X-axis? - Where was my centre of gravity, in the Y-axis? - Where was my centre of gravity, in the Z-axis? - How was my body rotated in the X-axis? - How was my body rotated in the Y-axis? - How was my body rotated in the Z-axis? - Where did I create tension? - Where did I lose tension? - How did I create momentum? - Where did I deadpoint? - What was my trajectory? And of course; it's a complex problem. So there are multiple solutions and all the parts interact with each other (changing 1 element may require tweaks to others as well). Just thought I'd share my thoughts in case they give you some new ideas :) I enrolled in the course, looking forward to learning from you!
I watch many videos on youtube about training for climbing. I don’t know why but this video, this guy, and his explanations just clicked with me. I am taking this note right here: I will apply everything that you said in this video to my training. Currently, my flash level is 6b/6b+. I will be back in a couple of months to share my progress and thoughts. Cheers mate!
Good video! Interesting to see that divide between technique and skill, that's not a division i made in my head for climbing. Funnily enough in sailing and racing the two are absolutely separate: there's corners you shouldn't trail brake into, and there's tacks that you want to do as sharp as possible but for most speed is better. I'm going to pay attention to this, thanks!
Rly cool vid! I'm wondering if you considered throwing consciousness into the core movement principles. In my opinion being conscious about your body on the wall is really important. It includes being conscious about how the holds feel, where your body is positioned on the wall, how tired you are, how much pressure you're putting onto the wall through each limb, etc. Consciousness is tricky too, because you can also overcook it and spend so much time overanalyzing a climb that you don't commit, your mind can only focus on so many things at once and controlling that focus is super important. I guess its harder to measure but I think it could warrant being a separate principle
From your description it sounds like some of what you’re talking about, at least in terms of movement, is what motor learning researchers refer to as focus of attention. I go into depth with it in one of my coaching courses, and the research is actually really interesting. As far as this course goes though, I discuss awareness and intention throughout the entire thing. For me, it’s more a core part of learning than a piece of climbing specific movement.
@@PowerCompanyClimbing Ah I get u, the principles are supposed to be more about movement itself than how you focus and problem solve. Still rly cool lol, the skill chart reminds me of wii sports
No, I appreciate Dave’s approach for sure, but I wanted to hear from the people who are looking at either motor learning more deeply, or who are directly teaching climbers and seeing that real time feedback. I’ve watched Dave’s videos and listened to him on podcasts, so I have a pretty solid idea of his approach and ideas.
@@PowerCompanyClimbing thank you for the answer. I've also heard about a guy using a photocamera with AI to track and suggest tecnique improvements for each person. I'm not sure if his software only works for the inherent elements or if it assesses the regulatory ones too. Have you had the chance to look into the newer AI developments? If you're interested I could send a couple of links
Yeah, I’ve looked at a lot of it. The main problem I see is that those things are generally based on either entropy or some predetermined “best” way to do a move that doesn’t take into account the individual climbers action capacities or potentially better creative solutions. And even if they could do that, they are still just giving you a solution to this one single move, not really helping you learn to adapt. The vast majority of motor learning literature supports a less specific approach during practice. For performance (or something that never changes like the speed route) that approach could be valuable, but it will unlikely ever be the best way to actually learn.
Thanks for your insights, I enrolled in the course!
Let me take a moment and share my thoughts, based off the video:
I personally try to separate technique, skill, and attributes. This is mostly based on my background in martial arts, where we differentiate Kihon (basic technique), Bunkai (application) and physical/mental aspects (attributes).
From this perspective, it seems that 5 atomic elements that you have suggested combine both skills and attributes. This is merely an observation, I don't think it changes any of the points you're trying to make. Although potentially skills might be best improved differently from attributes.
Also, I have 5 elements that I use myself when I get stuck and can't get past a crux. This is an entirely different objective, but still: could be interesting to compare so let me share:
- Limbs / contact points
- Position
- Rotation
- Tension
- Momentum / trajectory
if I get stuck, I go through variations of questions related to the 5 elements above. It works really well as a tool for reflection and improving microbeta!
- Can I get more out of my left hand / arm?
- Can I get more out of my right hand / arm?
- Can I get more out of my left foot / leg?
- Can I get more out of my right foot / leg?
- Where was my centre of gravity, in the X-axis?
- Where was my centre of gravity, in the Y-axis?
- Where was my centre of gravity, in the Z-axis?
- How was my body rotated in the X-axis?
- How was my body rotated in the Y-axis?
- How was my body rotated in the Z-axis?
- Where did I create tension?
- Where did I lose tension?
- How did I create momentum?
- Where did I deadpoint?
- What was my trajectory?
And of course; it's a complex problem. So there are multiple solutions and all the parts interact with each other (changing 1 element may require tweaks to others as well).
Just thought I'd share my thoughts in case they give you some new ideas :)
I enrolled in the course, looking forward to learning from you!
As a dork, it has always been my dream to have a hexagon skill chart.
Haha, I could have guessed this about you.
@@PowerCompanyClimbing I was daydreaming about making trading cards with these on them for my volleyball team last winter.
I watch many videos on youtube about training for climbing. I don’t know why but this video, this guy, and his explanations just clicked with me. I am taking this note right here: I will apply everything that you said in this video to my training. Currently, my flash level is 6b/6b+. I will be back in a couple of months to share my progress and thoughts. Cheers mate!
Good video! Interesting to see that divide between technique and skill, that's not a division i made in my head for climbing. Funnily enough in sailing and racing the two are absolutely separate: there's corners you shouldn't trail brake into, and there's tacks that you want to do as sharp as possible but for most speed is better. I'm going to pay attention to this, thanks!
I hadn’t ever really made the distinction either, and we’ll still use the word “technique” when we mean skill, but the distinction is important!
Rly cool vid! I'm wondering if you considered throwing consciousness into the core movement principles. In my opinion being conscious about your body on the wall is really important. It includes being conscious about how the holds feel, where your body is positioned on the wall, how tired you are, how much pressure you're putting onto the wall through each limb, etc. Consciousness is tricky too, because you can also overcook it and spend so much time overanalyzing a climb that you don't commit, your mind can only focus on so many things at once and controlling that focus is super important. I guess its harder to measure but I think it could warrant being a separate principle
From your description it sounds like some of what you’re talking about, at least in terms of movement, is what motor learning researchers refer to as focus of attention. I go into depth with it in one of my coaching courses, and the research is actually really interesting. As far as this course goes though, I discuss awareness and intention throughout the entire thing. For me, it’s more a core part of learning than a piece of climbing specific movement.
@@PowerCompanyClimbing Ah I get u, the principles are supposed to be more about movement itself than how you focus and problem solve. Still rly cool lol, the skill chart reminds me of wii sports
Intriguing approach to the topic!
Did you have the chance to talk with Dave MacLeod about it?
No, I appreciate Dave’s approach for sure, but I wanted to hear from the people who are looking at either motor learning more deeply, or who are directly teaching climbers and seeing that real time feedback. I’ve watched Dave’s videos and listened to him on podcasts, so I have a pretty solid idea of his approach and ideas.
@@PowerCompanyClimbing thank you for the answer. I've also heard about a guy using a photocamera with AI to track and suggest tecnique improvements for each person. I'm not sure if his software only works for the inherent elements or if it assesses the regulatory ones too.
Have you had the chance to look into the newer AI developments? If you're interested I could send a couple of links
Yeah, I’ve looked at a lot of it. The main problem I see is that those things are generally based on either entropy or some predetermined “best” way to do a move that doesn’t take into account the individual climbers action capacities or potentially better creative solutions. And even if they could do that, they are still just giving you a solution to this one single move, not really helping you learn to adapt. The vast majority of motor learning literature supports a less specific approach during practice. For performance (or something that never changes like the speed route) that approach could be valuable, but it will unlikely ever be the best way to actually learn.