Ford's BAD Water Pump Problem - Ep. 5.451
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2019
- Some Ford engines have an internal water pump. Hard to see when they fail and even more expensive to fix when they do.
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There is a special place in hell for the engineers that design this stuff.
You can’t put all the blame on the engineers. I’d bet my check that every single flaw these cars have that there’s an engineer went to the team leader and reported it. Then there was a meeting and bean counters determined that the flaw would most likely survive the warranty period. People have short memories and ford has decided that the negative publicity would not affect their revenue.
I have a 08 Taurus X that has the 3.5L which I bought used with 80K on it in 2010. Best car I ever owned with the exception of that timing chain driven water pump. There is a weep passage that comes out on the side of the tranversely mounted engine in the front of the car when the seal starts going bad. The problem the water pump bearing goes bad from the coolant and then allows coolant into the timing chain area. The car had over 170K miles on it when I noticed some seepage (way before anything showed up on the dip stick). Being a former mechanic, I had the ability to fix but not the time (was working 60 hrs a week) or equipment (hoist, special engine tools for the overhead cam timing etc.) or room to pull the engine. I called several garages at the time and most wanted nothing to do with it because it was so involved. The Ford dealer wanted around $2000 if "everything went right",
While trying figuring out what I was going to do with the car, my daughter (who drove it back and forth to school) kept driving the car as the leakage was just out the weep hole on the side of the engine and no sign of coolant in the oil. I kept a close eye on the coolant for a couple of weeks exploring different options. Then one day I got a call form my daughter who was at a McDonalds she pulled into because the low coolant light came on and the temperature gauge when way up. I drove to the location and the coolant was very low and the oil dipstick was way high with white milky coolant. I talked with a shop in Freeland, MI who was able to secure a used engine out of a wrecked Lincoln MKX that had less than 5K miles on it (yes 5K, not 50K). Anyhow, we ended up putting that engine in the Ford in February 2015 for a total of $2,400 with labor. Now the Taurus X has over 220K on it. In a crazy sort of way it worked out for me as I was able to put in an engine with very low miles for near the same price the Ford dealer wanted for the water pump replacement.
The crazy thing is that the 3.5 L engine is a great engine except for the water pump aspect. It gets good fuel mileage and has good acceleration. I would never buy another just because of the internal timing chain driven water pump.
There was that one time that Ford was a champion at one thing
An interesting tidbit from the Cash for Clunkers fiasco - We (as auto dismantlers) were required to kill and certify the destruction of the engine of any vehicle turned in under the program.
We had to drain all of the oil from the engine and then put in 2 quarts of a silica/salt/water combination. The engine was then fired up and run at 1500 rpm until it seized up and died.
Our all time champ was an 81 ford F-350 pickup with a 400 cubic in v8 that ran for 47 minutes and 32 seconds before locking up.
Average time for most engines was under 6 minutes.
The entire program was a corporate welfare bailout for the auto industry that decimated the used car market for the next 10 years. An entire generation of low priced used vehicles was wiped out.
Many low income owners who wanted to get a better vehicle could not afford a brand new vehicle. The program then made it impossible for them to find a better, affordable used car. Instead, they were forced to keep driving their even worse polluting vehicles until the vehicle died.
We had to destroy many vehicles that were better than the ones we were driving ourselves.
@@michaellowe3665 This is how it should have been structured.
1) You are driving a vehicle that is in pretty good shape but gets only say 15mpg.
You turn it in and get the 4500 credit on a new vehicle that gets at least 20 mpg.
2) The vehicle you turned in is inspected and if it passes emissions and safety checks it can be resold, once, BUT . . . only to a buyer that turns in a vehicle that gets at least 5mpg worse mileage ie
I was forced to use the Cash for Clunkers fiasco to trade-in my much loved 1998 Jeep Cherokee to buy a 2009 Chrysler PT Cruiser. I hated that car every day I owned it! Your message kind of got me down, as I was always hoping that somewhere along the way somebody would grab that Jeep, as it was in really good condition! After the PT got totaled in an accident, I replaced it with a 1994 Jeep Cherokee! So I'm mostly back to where I started from, other than the fact that my 98 was a more optioned out model, power windows, locks, auto trans, and aftermarket alarm that would raise the windows when the alarm was activated. My new (to me) 94 is a much plainer model, roll-up windows, manual locks, and manual trans (I actually wanted that trans, so that's a plus).
I like your idea of how it should have been structured, but I wouldn't use the mpg as the only way of figuring out if a person could buy a car traded in on the CfC deal, but rather I would also use financial ability to pay for a car, so lets say you want to buy a less expensive car, but need one that's not a beater, but you can't afford to spend much money to buy a car, you could buy one of the trade-in's and get special low-interest financing that's financed thru Uncle Sam himself. This way the government has a way of recouping some of the money it spent on the CfC program in the first place! Using my 98 Jeep as an example, I was given $4k trade-in for it, I don't know what the kbb price is for it was in 2009, but I can't imagine it being more than $1200.00 or so. Right now the gov is just out the $4k (or whatever it actually paid the dealers), but if the cars were able to be resold by the gov, with the gov financing them, a low-income family could buy it, and maybe pay $100.00/month for 12 months and the gov would then be $1200.00 richer than they are now! And the best part is if they sell a car to a person, and halfway thru their payments they stop making them, the gov is still money ahead even if they don't chase them for the money owed (although we know they will).
Lol I knew a service advisor that did this to a customer vehicle instead of the one he was supposed to.. OOPS!
Definitely corporate and government hands were shook for this "cash for clunkers" to happen.... not a big Fan of destroying a perfectly good working engine or vehicle to save the environment. That old car has to get destroyed then replaced. A wasted good machine. The replacement car produced caused some pollution production and resources consumed.... but if the banks finance somebody and corporations sell a ford flex then the planet wins? By win, we "SaVe ThE EnViroNmEnT".??... #Nope 🤨
I helped destroy a mint 85 Grand Cherokee. They would not let us buy them.
I’ll keep my 17 year old Toyota product and never worry about problems like this. Thanks Steve
In 2011 I bought a 2002 Mustang GT 5-speed with 121,000 miles on it. I believe it was a one owner, and the guy took excellent care of it, $7,400 out the door. This past June I finished doing a lot of work on it, replacing calipers, spider gears, tie rods and ball joints typical stuff. The intake manifold had a leak so I flushed the cooling system before doing that. Flushing it several times I naturally uncovered a leak in the radiator so while it was out I put a water pump in, it was by far the easiest part I replaced. I also put new brake, power steering and transmission fluids in it and it is running so sweet. I'm 71 so I've calmed down some and don't hot rod it...Much. With luck this will be the last car I will ever own. It's a lot of fun to drive too. 😁🖖
If you're changing the water pump change the timing belt or chain. If you're changing the timing belt or chain, change the water pump.
On timing belt driven cars this is true.
That is only if the water pump is driven off the timing chain or belt
"Back in the day" I was a pump jockey and 'light mechanic' (oil changes & brake jobs). A customer came in with noisy rocker arms with about 45000 miles on the car and the owner told me to pull the valve cover. This was a straight six so it was a fairly straight forward job. After I removed the bolts, loosened and removed the cover I called the owner over. He looked at the engine and said "I told you to take that cover off!" I looked him in the eyes and said "I did". He then saw the burned oil residue had completely formed a shell just like the cover. The owner asked the driver how often he had change the oil, and he was told "I have to change the oil?". I slipped out to cover the pumps and don't know what the driver was told. Discretion is the better part of valor .... (smile).
Wow, it was a miracle it would even run.
Ford is NOT the only company that has engineered an engine this way!!! The Chrysler 2.7l engine is notorious for this problem!!! It's so bad you can't find a good used engine at any junkyard!!! The water pump is inside the engine and driven by the timing chain and the whole front of the engine has to be disassembled and all the timing chains removed to replace the pump!!! I think the last one I did cost close to a grand for this SERVICE!!! That's if it didn't destroy the engine first by dumping all the coolant into the oil wiping out the bearings!!! So no Ford isn't the only one!!! And please remember one more thing. The mechanic didn't "Build It, Buy It, or Break It " he's merely fixing something YOU bought and broke!!! You have the easy job, you just have to write the check!!!
6.4 Powerstroke too. There’s no good cores left. And the 3.7 and 4.7 liter Dodge engines.
I had a friend who has the O7 mercury sable premier . Luckily she listened to me because i was a mechanic for 25 yrs. and purchased the extended warranty they offered . Her car has the 3.5 engine and the water pump is behind the timing chain cover and operated by the timing chain . So when she had me look at it I told her what it was and to stop driving it and have it towed back to the dealership since she had the used car extended warranty and it was covered under that .Luckily it had their fail safe engine system which stopped her engine from operation with low coolant after 4 attempts of repeated adding coolant to the engine. They put a new one in along with timing chain and tensioner which is always recommended if your going that far to replace anything timing chain related and she only ended up paying 200.00 as the timing chain and tensioner are not covered as that was not the issue . But it would have cost her over 1400.00 if she hadn't listened and got the warranty added during her purchase .Literally the whole left side of the engine has to come off to access the timing cover etc So it works great now , but Ford says that the timing chain and water pump have to be changed every 50000 miles on these engines . Some of the worst designed engines by far IMO . 😂
I just got my 03 explorer back yesterday, after having the transmission rebuilt.
223k miles and runs good, for now. My teenage daughter may change that.
Holy hell, I need to finally replace my 09 Vibe GT that I use for Uber, its aging out yhis year. I was considering something bigger, a 3 row explorer, edge or if im nuts a Taurus SHO, who says you can't have fun while you work. I've been researching the 3.5 water pump issue but would have never guessed to find one of my favorite youtubers, who I watch for his legal stuff discussing the very issue im concerned about. My Lehto, you truly are a renaissance man!
The Chrysler (3.7L) 225 Slant 6 We used to say the Slant 6 oil and antifreeze optional equipment. You could overheat a Slant 6 and it would still run after you let it cool down pour antifreeze and it would be fine.
Antifreeze,, ditch water whatever
Steve, FYI it not just a Ford issue, same issue on Chevy durmax deisel.
duramax diesel is a different class of vehical.
Hi Steve ! Enjoy your videos. Water pumps inside of engines is standard now with many car manufacturers. Having gone through it with my last Chrysler found you will hear a slight ringing noise or tinging noise while inside the car with engine running. Outside the vehicle you will not hear the noise.
It's the bearing in the water pump allowing more movement in the pump with noise transmitted through the coolant hoses up to the heater core in the dash of vehicle. This gives you a small window of opportunity to get it replaced before the water seal is destroyed by the water pump bearing failure.
Many will have a small weep hole if seal starts to fail allowing coolant to drain outside of the engine so if you start to see coolant anywhere you have parked on the ground is another sign to watch for.
Greg
Keep promoting those great GM products! 1982.5 Ford Ranger - Rusted to bits, 1985 Ford Escort - too many issue to list,1989 Ford Aerostar - new engine in 1991, daughters 2012 Focus repurchased under OH Lemon Law in 2015. Meanwhile, 2002 Saturn SL - currently 331,000 miles, original clutch, original head gasket - never changed rear brakes.
Yeah Fords are shit and designed to be hard to work on.
I cannot concur, I have had nothing but good luck with my Ford vehicles, right now I have a 1991 Ford F-350, 7.3L IDI diesel, with 480,109 miles, and still running like new. This isn't my first, all the Ford's I have had, have gone to 200k +, and this is my third with 400k + miles on it.
@@TimberWolf429 You're comparing a IDI to the rest of Fords products....
@@TheTurpin1234 if you read further, I do mention that all of my Ford vehicles have had 200,000 plus miles. That includes multiple 302's, or 5.0's, a 300 Inline 6, one of my 2 351 Windsors had 689,957, and still drove better than half of the new cars. I had a 3.8L Essex that had 289,000 and still ran perfect. And now my 7.3 IDI I have right now, is the second, my first was at around a million miles. Now granted, most of my Fords are either F-series trucks, or Econoline Vans, but I have had GM's quit when they should have run, Mopars that where just garbage to begin with, and Fords that should never have run, but did.
Ford has gone nuts. They have to take the engine apart to fix it. What were they thinking.
97 Honda Accord. The water pump is driven by the inner timing belt. Yes, TWO timing belts. The plastic cover has a pin that requires removing the oil pan. The AC compressor must also be removed to allow the engine mount to be removed. Yes, a real fun job for the weekend mechanic.
A COMMON SENSE,STAND UP ATTORNEY AAAAAAND A MECHANIC?PERFECT!
6am Saturday Morning...Good Morning Steve and everyone have a great weekend!
I have had a few cars with timing belts and when it was time to have the timing belt replaced I would have them do the water pump too since they required the same labor for the most part.
Smart move,worked for Gates Rubber. (Now Gates Corp) We always suggested that.
You're right about old engines being forgiving to abuse, but the reason those old cars came in so low on oil was because they all burned or leaked oil way before a modern engine will ever even need spark plugs. They were also over built and simple. A Ford V8 was all iron but made less power than some 4 cylinders do today, so they had thicker, stronger parts for the power rating, and better heat dissipation. Still, it was rare to see a car with over 100,000 miles, while today you can find all kinds of used cars for sale with 180-300K on them and still running. Unfortunately, once they finally do break down, it's going to be expensive.
One thing that hasn't changed since the old days is that manufacturers still use their customers as guinea pigs. They stick some customers with bad cars, while quietly implementing fixes to the next model year to reduce warranty claims.
As far as I can tell my 1976 C10 still has the original water pump. Doesn't leak but does have some bearing play. Its on my list to do, less than $20 and less than a half hour job.
The 3.5l, 3.7l engine in Taurus/explorers are pretty good engines. The internal water pump keeps it from being a great engine. I have replaced a few, and will prob replace many more. The water pump can fail in a few ways, there is a dual seal on the new one (think the older ones had a single) made of a rubber type material. That seal can degrade/flatten and leak. If just the internal seal leaks, there is a drain built into the engine that deposits the leak out by the alternator. If both seals leak, it leaks internally and the coolant mixes with the oil. In addition the water pump bearing can wear out causing the pulley to wobble destroying the internal seal causing a leak into the engine.
If you have coolant mixing with oil, your engine is pretty much junk. The coolant softens the bearings and the engine will grenade. In addition the "milkshake" gets inside all the internal oiling system such as the VCT solenoids and junks them up. At that point, I would have a used engine installed with a new water pump.
In all honesty, I would consider this a preventative maintenance item on these engines. Replace at 100k. I would also only use a high quality pump such as a Motorcraft to prevent premature failure. While you are there, also consider replacing the timing chains/tensioners and guides. Prob a $2000 job using OEM parts.
These newer Tauruses/Explorers have quite a few very expensive issues. Rack and pinion is Electric and fails. Part alone is about $1000. PTU (transfer case) only holds like 12-18oz of fluid and sits right next to the exhaust. The fluid can cook inside of it and you will need a new transfer case at a $2000 cost. The PTU is also known to leak all the fluid out of it out of the passenger output seal and then destroys itself. Fluid is VERY hard to change out due to location. The lower control arm/rear bushings wear and need replacement. Prob a $1000 repair.
So if you have a 3.5 Ford just drain out the coolant and fill the radiator with oil. Problem solved LOL!!!!!
Almost 40 years ago, I had a Chevy Caprice with a pin hole in the transmission cooling line. Made the radiator fluid look like the filling in chocolate covered cherries. I used to love asking a gas attendant to check my radiator. Shades of Candid Camera & the absent engine! Being old has some benefits, not many, but a few.
I have been a Ford owner for the past 30 years and have been very satisified but now I own a Flex with this design flaw and just found out a Judge threw out the lawsuite against Ford for this design flaw. I plan on selling my Flex so I do not have to watch my engine like a hawk and purchase a good little Toyota who cares a lot about good design and customer loyalty.
Toyotas burn oil. And it’s not a minor issue
Most external water pumps have a bleed hole between the seal and inner bearings. Coolant leaking from this hole is an early warning that the pump will fail soon. Ford should have designed their internal water pump (actually that design should have never been considered) with a hose connected to a bleed hole, and routed the hose outside the engine block to provide indication of imminent pump failure.
Ford did do that. It leaks by the alternator. People can also avoid that warning. They still can leak internally though.
Steve, this is not jut the fact the coolant contaminates the oil, it is worst then most other contaminates. When you put Ethylene glycol under the kind of pressures seen in the oil pump/engine it changes chemically and becomes a strong acid. This acid will melt the babbit from the bearings and can end up redepositing in all the worse places like oil passages. This means all internal engine parts need replaced or cleaned in acid. Back in the day GM made us repair everything that was under warranty with one notable exception If an engine was under warranty had any "engine noise" and had coolant in the oil we did not even pull that engine apart, a new engine was order. Also in fleet management coolant in the oil is the number one reason for required engine replacements. What I would suggest is to have the owners of the flexs change oil 2500 miles or 4 times a year. Send the oil out to be tested every time. One of the critical tests done is % of glycol in the oil. In theory you should see some small seepage before the pump fails bad. This is not going 100% to avoid major issues but it could avoid a major repair.
Hi Steve, yup I just changed mine 3.5L V6 2015 Ford Explorer. I’m a decent non professional mechanic. This is an absolutely horrible engineering design. Took days (not hours) to disassemble. You have to take a lot of the engine apart to even get to it. Putting it back together is no picnic either. Who in their right mind puts the water pump inside the engine? Only a company that wants to keep you from going anywhere other than the dealer.
Ah ha.
^this
will never buy a ford v6, so many nasty design features desinged by bandits
A co-worker of mine believed in the self-lubricating properties of polished metal surfaces....for a while.
yrs ago when I was a paramedic in NYC, some people with alcohol addiction and could not afford to buy booze used to call ems to go to the hospital and they would say they drank antifreeze. They said this because in the 1990s and 2000s, the antidote hospitals gave was drinking alcohol. For a day, they got a shot an hr as an antidote
?!? wow, the things I learn on UA-cam
The old Ethylene Glycol Antifreeze is rarely used in cars today and new anti-freezes, based on propylene glycol are not as toxic.
Steve you should talk to people about the difference between a Mandatory recall and Voluntary recall.
I drain the radiator once a year as cheap water pump insurance. I've never had a water pump go bad.
INSIDE THE ENGINE!!! That is ridiculous! Water pumps are so common to replace. I worked for Warranty Dept. for GMC, Pontiac, Toyota, in the late 80's, and in order to change a burnt out blinker light, on a GM truck, you had to remove and replace the bumper. I thought that was dumb, but this is the worse idea with Ford. My Vega took more oil than gas, lol.
Dianna Salva I remember that bumper. With Michigan salt it was hard to remove it.
The description of old engines running on very little oil reminds me of my 2000 saturn which ran for years on dangerously low oil. (And still does for all I know.)
I too have a 2011 Flex. In the shop right now for this... Coolant in the crankcase. Happened so fast without any warning. Wish I'd have seen this earlier as I would have replace the water pump. Has 117000 miles on it. Thank God it didn't do any internal damage to the bearings Rings or any thing else.
You're extremely lucky.
I have documentation proving a Ford dealer in Bellevue, WA refused to honor the warranty pertaining to the catalytic converters on an Expedition, and when I complained to FORD they refused to force the dealer to do so. I now drive a Chevy!!
Some lawyer could possibly turn those documents into a winning lawsuit. That'd be hilarious if the stealership that dishonored the factory warranty on your POS Ford wound up buying you a brand new Chevy/ vehicle of your choice..😜😇😂
2012 Ford Flex, this just happened to me last week. Water pump went out, I watched the video on how to change it out.....
First time in my life I took a vehicle to a shop, they pulled the engine to change it, 11 hours later it cost me $1700
The gas station oil story reminded me. I had a '60 Pontiac as a daily in 1994 or so. It burned a valve or something and started consuming oil without really leaking much and what would happen with that one is when it got to be around 2 to 3 quarts low, it wouldn't run right. My guess is being so low on oil the hydraulic lifters weren't all getting full, so it would misfire on the cylinders that the lifters weren't filling on.
So you'd add a quart or two and then it would run fine, other than the smoke out the draft tube got pretty bad.
I compression tested it and one cylinder was way down, I suspected valve but it could have been rings or who knows what, I parked it permanently not too long after that and never did open it up to see what was wrong. The road salt had killed it anyways. Which is a shame because that was the nicest car to drive I ever had, would do 75 down the interstate all day and with the wide track and long wheelbase it would corner like a slot car.
Thanks Steve. I have been a listener of your channel for a few years now and took your advice to heart when I was ready to buy a used Ford Edge only a few days ago. I got a pre purchase inspection by an independent mechanic who found a leaky head gasket, leaking transfer case, leaking axle seal, leaking battery, and a warped break rotor (conveniently none of which was reported in the dealers own "inspection"). It was estimated that, a car they were trying to sell for $8000 (average retail price), needed about $4400 in repairs. I heard about the water pumps being bad, but this is the first I've heard about the water pumps essentially requiring a full engine teardown to get to. I can honestly credit your advice for saving me from buying a moneypit. Thanks!
There seems to be a contest running between auto engineers as to who can pack more stuff in the ever smaller engine compartments. Extra points are give for adding more features and electronic components. My 2006 Honda CRV requires you to remove the exhaust manifold to replace the starter. It certainly made sense to me to place a electric motor full of heat sensitive components under an exhaust manifold? It a testament to the quality of the engineer overall that we don't see a lot more cars by the side of the road in spite of the increased complexity of the drive train and the placement of components where they really don't belong. Cold comfort to those of us who have to pay the higher repair costs when something dose fail.
Another great video. You have a great personality for YT videos. Cheers
Many years ago I worked for a scrap yard which had a WW2 Navy surplus fork lift. Every morning we would add two quarts of oil, a gallon then check the oil to see if it needed more, this would also be done at noon. It consumed a lot of oil, but parts to rebuild the engine were difficult to find and the forklift worked well, other than using engine oil hydraulic fluid.
I’m a retired Ford tech.. I used to be proud to say that. The last ten years... I retired in 14.... I didn’t let anyone know I was associated with Ford..
Mark Ryterski that’s kinda sad.
MaddRamm Kinda sad because I saw what greed can and will do to a company. Also the way we were treated with ever shrinking time to repair cars .. also known as “ flat rate”. Ford openly stole from dealer mechanics. I would NEVER advocate a young person to be a tech. As soon as I could I retired.
Steve,
I had a 1997 EF Falcon (Australia) which was less than six months old when one morning it "failed to proceed". I was also at that time visiting family on a remote rural property on the border of two different states. Nearest town was less than 10Km (6 miles) away BUT in the adjoining state. Despite my advice about the distance the road side assistance company insisted on sending the car to the nearest town in my state. SO, after a 100Km (60 mile) ride on the a tow truck, it was determined that a dodgy gasket on the water pump had resulted in a tiny leak into the distributor both of which were mounted on the front of the engine but with the distributor below the water pump.
I would argue that if the water pump is inside the engine then it is part of the power train and must be covered under the power train warranty. Any component within the engine should be designed for a service life consistent with that of the engine. Components that cannot meet that requirement need to be designed to be replaced within a reasonable amount of time.
Is "need to be" a legal term?
it's the Ford 3.5 v6 of Edge, Flex, Taurus, Taurus X, etc. There's a fail drip hole, where coolant can exit the block in event of pump failure, so I'm surprised about oil contamination. The real problem is not messing up the engine timing because the timing chain runs the internal coolant pump. I'm ashamed to say that we messed up the timing on a 2009 Taurus with the 3.5. We bought a used engine for $400, learned from the previous mistake, replaced the coolant pump on the replacement engine, and installed into the Taurus. It was a nightmare.
The level of difficulty depends on the car. Some engines have the water pump driven by the timing belt, and you need to remove everything attached to the timing belt cover before accessing it. Then you need to put everything back together, and make sure you marked a tooth on the belt at each pulley so you don't mess up your timing.
My '09 Civic has the easy solution. They put it behind the alternator on the serpentine belt, so all you need is a socket wrench and two spanner wrenches:
1. unplug the alternator wires in your way
2. loosen the belt (the hydraulic tensioner has a helpful 17mm nut, but it's too hard to turn with one spanner wrench and too tight for a breaker bar. Either buy the proper tool or use two spanner wrenches with the second one's ring end pushing onto the open end of the first for twice the leverage.)
3. Use socket wrench to remove all the bolts holding the pump against the engine. Have an oil catch pan / towels to clean the antifreeze mess.
Install all the replacement pump by following the steps in reverse. Hopefully you only took the tension out of the belt and didn't remove it completely, otherwise you'll need to google the routing diagram.
What about all these new cars that don’t have dipsticks because you “don’t need to check the oil” anymore? Hahaha
Unless your sensor goes bad. In this case it would show ok since the water would show as oil and be full
Keep up the good work Steve
Steve,
This is one thing that greatly concerns me when considering buying a new-to-me used car. I drive an older GM vehicle with the Series II 3800 V6, an engine known fairly well for it's reliability. Acceptable power, decent fuel economy and most of all reliability and exceptionally easy to work on. I wish I could find a similarly reliable and easy to work on engine in a more modern vehicle.
That's why I still have my 94 Chevy C1500. 250,000 miles and still going plus the water pump, a/c compressor, alternator, throttle body, EGR valve, ignition coil, and the distributor are all easy to replace.
The engineering team that made the decision to put the water pump inside the engine is genius level. Ford deserves to fall on their sword for this. In any event, there are clues that you are losing coolant if you do your fluid level checks properly. You should see coolant is getting inside the engine when you check your oil at every fill up and you should see that you are losing coolant when you look at your overflow tank. The trouble is that most people never check fluid levels. They rely on the idiot lights to let them know that the coolant or oil is low.....
I feel as If I may be an anomaly, but I check my oil every time I get gas. You have to wait on the gas to pump anyway, so why not make use of your time and check the oil? And while you're at it, scrub the bug guts off your windshield. Nothing drives me nuts more than a dirty windshield. Ironic thing is I drive a Toyota, so it's never anywhere but dead on the full mark. But it makes me feel better to check it. :p
Timing chain driven internal water pump on a Chysler took my son and I 3 days to fix.
Most transverse mounted(aka sideways) engine also have an external water pump as well. Just did the water pump on our 05 Buick Lacrosse, 41 bucks for the pump, gasket included. Took me about an hour of leisurely working time to complete.
watched fellow mechanic at ford dealer who was replacing the water pump under warranty. saw it was internal water pump design. asked him the labor and he told me the warranty time was 20 hours. water pump is part of cam drive system inside the engine like chrysler v6 which I refuse to work on. everything bolted to front and top of engine must be removed to access water pump to include intake, valve covers, all belt driven accessories and in some cases the radiator. asked my friend which engines are like this and said all turbo v6 engines are like this. decided then to never buy a vehicle that when I lifted the hood I could not see the water pump I would not buy which if a newer ford leaves the turbo 4 and the v8s.
Thank You Steve!
When I worked for Ford dealer, one of the main mechanics was doing a water pump. I asked him what was the labor on it and said the warranty labor was 20 hours. The water pump was located inside the engine and is part of the timing chain mechanism. It is the same on all newer V6 engines.
Warranty labor rate is lower than the regular repair rate by 30%-40%. Almost need to pull engine to do the water pump/timing chain job. (Yes, both together) And I just happened to buy one of these listed vehicles a month ago. :(
Come on ford you gotta be kidding me.I though the 4.0 sohc Cologne V6 engine with the timing chain in the back of the engine was bad,but this is next level stupid.
Since, it wasn't mentioned, don't pop the cap on the radiator while the engine is hot. It works like a pressure cooker and will boil over when you release the pressure. There is a good chance you will get burned.
I think I did say, "When safe to do so," but your explanation is a good one for why it matters.
I worked at a rest stop on the NJ Turnpike many decades ago. Witnessed someone open their hot radiator cap, even after being advised they needed to wait for it to cool down. They didn't want to wait, so they opened it anyway... We had to call an ambulance for that guy...
@@stevelehto I must have missed it then. Love your channel by the way. I shared it with my brother ( a cop).
@@The_Opinion_of_Matt I said it as an aside - like I was joking. Thanks.
My car is not on the list, but is included. I have a 2013 Lincoln MKS. This is basically a Ford Taurus.
Ny pump failed at 85,000 miles. And I baby this car by driving it gently. Unacceptable. I have more than likely lost my allegiance to Ford.
They do this to cut production costs, but they sure don't discount the sticker price. This car retailed at $55,000. I drove a 92 Honda with over 200 000 miles for six years with no extra maintenance required.
The car is still going with 330,000 miles.
Ford isn't the only manufacturer that uses timing chain/belt driven water pumps these days. Most manufacturers (Honda, VW, FCA, Hyundai/Kia, GM, Subaru, etc) use internal water pumps on at least some of their transverse engines as it helps make the engine more compact for the tight engine bay of a front wheel drive vehicle. It's also a gift to the dealership service department when they get to charge you 12+ hours of labor to replace the water pump. Awesome that your Honda went that many miles, especially if you rolled the dice on not performing maintenance on it. Today's Hondas are junk. Especially the ones with the new Dream engine that floods its crankcase with gasoline and Honda refuses to admit that diluting engine oil by 50% or more with a solvent is bad for the engine.
Change that plastic-aluminum radiator every 10 years.
Thanks Steve & good morning. We ll keep that in mind here. Our Explorer is good so far , change oil earlier this week. I'll be more vigilant, like checking weejly.
I've changed a few water pumps.
Yes, what was Ford thinking? Well, I taught them well.
Hey Steve. What were these engineers thinking, hey! I've cursed more engineers while working on cars than I care to remember. I always said that every product engineer should have to work on the items they will be engineering, for at least a year, before they get there degree. Maybe that would teach them not to do stupid things they do so frequently like that. Anyway, thanks for the link to the list of the internally bleeding engines Dr. Lehto! You have possibly saved another soul, since the wife has been looking at used vehicles lately. Oh my. Jpol.
I knew this one ol' mechanic who always said: "They ougha cut (castrate) every automotive engineer." And hearing that someone actually built an engine with an internal water pump makes me think he was on the right track.
VERY INFORMATIVE. NICE. THOUGH YOU SHOULD OF ADDED THAT PROPER OWNERS MANUAL FLUID CHANGE MAINT' SCHEDULES SHOULD BE ADHERED TO. IN THIS PUMP ISSUE, OIL CHANGE EVERY 3-7K MILES AND OEM COOLANT CHANGES EVERY 30K MILES. DOING SO THESE ISSUES WOULD NOT HAVE OCCURED. HAVING A MECHANIC PERIODICALLY CHECK THE WATER PUMP WEEP HOLE FOR COOLANT MOISTURE WOULD OF SAVED THE ENGINE. YOUR FORD REF STUFF IS PRICELESS. FAMILY MEMBER'S 2009 FLEX JUST EXPERIENCED THIS.
OUR PRISTINE 2012 LINCOLN MKX AWD, 93K MILES ON THE CLOCK HAS THE 3.7 LITRE DURATEC V6 . (SAME AS THE 3.5 DURATEC DESIGN).. WATER PUMP HAS STRONGER BEARINGS , SEALS AND RUNS ON A DUAL CHAIN SPROCKET. EVEN SO. PROPER FLUID MAINTENANCE IS A MUST.
ANOTHER FORD THING ON THIS SUBJECT IS THE AWD PTU (power transfer unit) ON ALL AWD DURATEC ENGINES. IT'S EXTERNAL 5" FROM THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER AND ATTACHED TO THE TRANS. VERY HOT PLACE. 🔥 IT HAS 12 0z of syn oil. OUR LINCOLN DEALERSHIP SAYS IT'S LIFETIME OIL NEVER NEEDS CHANGING AND WILL NOT CHANGE IT. COSTS $1,000 PLUS FOR REPLACEMENT. HAS NO DRAIN PLUG. THIS SHOULD BE A LAW SUIT. MINE IS FLUID EXTRACTED EVERY 25K MILES WITH RED LINE SYN GEAR OIL. SUPERIOR TO OEM JUNK. GOOGLE/UA-cam THIS PTU ISSUE AND IT IS MAJOR IN CONTENT. ALL IN WITH THESE ISSUES WE LOVE OUR MKX. IT IS BRILLIANT.
TODAYS ENGINES ARE SO DESIGN/ELECTRONIC SOFISTICATED REQUIRES OWNERS EVEN MORE TO ADHERE EVEN MORE TO THE OWNERS MANUALS MAINTENANCE SCHEDULES. 25 % OWNERS LIKE MY SELF DO RELIGIOUSLY. 75% DO NOT. HENCE THESE PROBLEMS. To be fair. SUING FORD BY AN OWNER WHO NEGLECTS MAINTENANCE AND CAUSES THE PROBLEM . SHOULD HE OR SHE RECEIVE A NEW ENGINE OR REIMBURSED THE REPLACEMENT COSTS DUE TO THEIR OWN NEGLEGENCE?
ON THE SUJECT OF ENGINE DESIGNS, NEWER ENGINES ARE EVEN CHALLENGING. HAVING A 4 CYLINDER TURBO CHARGED ENGINE TO SQUEEZE OUT IMPRESSIVE HP'S IS A ROAD TO DESASTER EVENT. THESE SET UPS WILL NEVER LIVE TO 100K MILES. ADD TO THAT OWNER NEGLEGENCE AND ITS A WATER PUMP ISSUE ON A MUCH GRANDER SCALE.
MY ADVICE. 🆘️
IF YOU BUY NEW OR USED ADD IN A 5+ YEAR EXTENDED "COVER EVERYTHING" WARRANTY. NOT TO DO SO IS IN YOUR WALLET FINANCIAL SUICIDE.
POINT OF SALE, WE DID. COST $2.800.00. OUR ROI WAS IN THE FIRST 3 YRS. ELECTRONIC, SUSPENSION AND DRIVETRAIN STUFF. THIS JAN 2022 OUR TOP DRAWER LINCOLN WARRANTY EXPIRED. FOUND AN IMPRESSIVE WARRANTY CO. IN DEC OF 2021 WHO OPERATES WITH THE DEALERSHIPS THAT COVERS EVERYTHING FOR 5 YRS. 0 DEDUCTIBLE. MARCH OF THIS YEAR EXERCISED IT AT OUR LINCOLN DEALER. A NEW DISPLAY CALLED AN APIM MODULE. THE APIM IN OUR MKX CONTROLS EVERYTHING . PHONE, RADIO, NAV, HEATED/COOLED SEATS, AC/HEAT, ANTI-COLLISTION AND ALL OTHER FUNCTIONS AS THERE ARE NO CONTROLLING KNOBS. WE ARE KNOBLESS! RUNNING BLIND WITHOUT IT. COST $1,100.00 INSTALLED. OUR COST, 0.
STAY AWAY FROM THE CHARLATINS OUT THERE LIKE CAR SHIELD AND OTHERS. THEY WIN YOU LOOSE. LONG APPROVAL TIMES AND PART REPLACEMENTS ARE NOT OEM NEW PARTS.
I DO SO HOPE THIS INPUT HELPS HERE.
Changing the coolant out every 30k miles is excessive.
Thank you Steve for reminding all about the potential poisoning of animals from antifreeze. It only takes a small amount to hurt a cat or dog.
Way to expensive in the USA. I have Ford Edge 2013 V6 3.5 . I pay for the OEM Water Pump, 2 gallons of Preston 50/50 Orange, 6 Quarts of Syntec Oil Quaker State 5-20W, Oil Filter OEM and labor.. for US445.00. The labor was US$181.00 and they did the job very quick. I delivered the car at 8AM and it was ready by 2PM. All this is in the Dominican Republic.
Great video. 2 observations. I couldn't find the C-note. And I assume that half ship is the Titanic.
This problem reminds me of the infamous Chrysler 2.7 V6.
The ford engines have a weep hole for the internal water pump that will show coolant outside of the engine if the water pump is leaking. People are just oblivious about their vehicles till a light comes on the dash.
FACTS…!
Only if the gasket is leaking. If it's the seal around the shaft then it won't come out of the weep hole and instead leaks directly into the engine.
Steve: Do you remember Slick 50? I was at an antique car swap meet & show several years ago, and there was a display of a Chevy 350 V8 on an engine stand without the oil pan, and the engine was sitting there running, and it ran all day long, and supposedly the engine had been treated with Slick 50 engine oil treatment before they removed the pan!
I was at that swap meet with a buddy of mine who was looking for a couple of parts for one of his Model T's (he worked at rebuilding Model T's for a living), but his personal T was missing some parts that in his rather large inventory he didn't have, so we went to Ormond Beach FL (from Ft Lauderdale FL) to find the parts. We managed to find the parts, and when we got back to town he was so excited at the idea of getting his car running again (at that point it hadn't run in about 20 years or so) he decided to get it running that night! Unfortunately, the spark plugs were rusted in place, so he put some WD-40 around each plug, and we left them soaking for about an hour. When we got back to his house (we went over to the local 24hr/day diner) using a wrench with a 2' pipe on it for leverage we managed to get the plugs out. Next, he tried to see if the engine would turn, but it was locked up. Again, WD-40 to the rescue, he poured about 4oz into each cylinder, then it was back to the diner for more coffee! We let it sit for a couple of hours, and when we got back to it, he hands me a wooden dowel stick about a foot long, and a hammer, then he puts the dowel into the #2 cylinder, walks around to the front of the car (to the hand-crank starter) and he tells me to start pounding on the stick as he pulls up on the crank! We do this for about 5 minutes until we get #2 all the way down, then he pours in some more WD, and moves the stick to the next cylinder, and we repeat the process. We end up doing this whole thing for maybe 2 or 3 cycles thru all of the cylinders until he was able to crank the engine by himself without needing my help. At this point, he siphons out all of the cylinders, puts some gasoline into each of the cylinders, as well as in the bowl of the carb, then empties the rest into the gas tank. after that, he starts it with one pull of the crank handle! It starts, for about 5 minutes it's pumping out a thick smokescreen, but after sitting for 20 years it was running again, I used to have a tow truck back then, so I had a portable air tank, so we filled up his four tires, and went for a ride in his Model T! It's amazing the abuse the older engines would take! Try doing that with a modern Ford, and see what happens!☺︎
I don't know how I missed this video. My grand daughter bought an edge 4 months ago and the engine spun a bearing last week. Damn it!
I was thinking about buying a police Taurus but it's on the list. I have changed many external water pumps but never an internal one. Water pumps have a tiny weep hole so you will know the seal is leaking. Companies also put starter motors inside engines. They are using wasted space on the inside and creating work that will cost thousands instead of hundreds of $$$$.
Many years ago my mother's old slant six MoPar had a water pump that failed but did not leak, squeak or anything else to give a clue... it would just overheat if it was stressed. I eventually removed the water pump to find that the impeller was nothing more than a few nubs on a shaft. Probably due to silicates being used as anti-corrosion agents in the anti-freeze.
I’ve got one of them! Thank you for the timely information!
I have the Ford 2.5, thank God.
I remember Toyota had to replace a bunch of engines back in the late 90's, early 2000's due to antifreeze getting into the oil. One of my old coworkers bought a used Lexus SUV that had the problem. The engine blew up within 200 miles after he bought it. He called Toyota and got a new engine at no cost to him, even though he bought it used. I think Toyota vehicles have as many problems as any other manufacturer, but they take care of their customers when something does go wrong, where as American car companies will fight you tooth and nail, look for every loophole, flat out lie to get out of a warranty claim. In other words, they don't appreciate their customers.
You're right about Toyota. Every dealer I've seen has a long line of service bays that are always full. However, of the dozen Toyotas I've owned, they have rarely gone back for other than normal servicing. One had an oil leak they couldn't fix and one had a power steering problem we couldn't afford to fix. I'll buy another.
I was an independent mechanic back then. I made some lifelong customers when I told them what I would charge to replace their engine and in the same breath told them to drive 2 blocks to the Toyota dealer and they would do it for free.
As a Technician I love Fords. Make so much money off of them.
That's the newer ford's. They have a chain drivin water pump that is sealed with the timing chain. When it starts leaking the water pump dumps coolent in the engine bay. That's why it cost so much money.
I remember when this design came out, all of us Ford techs just shook our heads. We knew this design was gonna cost some big bucks once warranty ran out. The sad thing is that the rest of the engine was a great design. Very smooth running, good power and good fuel mileage.
Agreed, certain models of Ford's were absolute nightmares to work on . AeroStar vans. The tiny, highly stressed head gaskets of the powerful Focus ST turbo.. the One weak Link Ford's seem to have- that usually blows just past the factory warranty..
mount the water pump IN SIDE the engine? REALLY? sounds like time for some one to make a major mod kit for that engine.
Its notable that Ford isn't the only company to have done this. There's more than a few companies that have waterpumps run off of timing chains.
my flex has 93k so far so good, regular oil and coolant changes, but im budgeting for this as preventative maintenance at around 125k assuming i still have the truck. Around me i got quoted at$1200 that's a lot but less than most. That said with this and the PTU issue these engines are very reliable. i just love driving this Duratec so smooth powertrian, efficient, powerful engine. I've seen and heard with proper maintenance half a million miles is not unheard of
It is amazing on the failure rates. Some fail with less than 70K miles. Then you have me driving two of the Edges with the 3.5 Duratec to over 300,000 miles on the same OE water pump.
Did you do extra maintenance measures?
@@wish2fish37 30K coolant changes, 30K transmission fluid changes, 30K power steering fluid changes and 10K mile oil changes. This engine and Edge are now at about 360,000 miles. We did have a water pump failure at 322,000. Rebuilt the front end of the engine and still running strong.
First GM Quad 4’s were like that. Later ones you could remove without pulling the timing chain. Chrysler 2.7 v6 also has timing chain driven water pump. Some have weep holes & may work if not plugged up.
95% of all Fords are still on the road today.. 5% of them actually made it home!
LOL! So true!
FORD: Found On Road Dead
@@SirDeanosity Fxcked Out Recycled Dodge.
As I read this I Was getting triggered,....
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@SirDeanosity, in the UK, one of our warning signs is a triangle with the word FORD in it, naturally for a water crossing.
In the humorous version of signs, it translates to Broken Down Vehicle.
In the early 60's, my Ford employee father wrecked his Falcon and bought a 59 Hillman Minx as a temp car, and sold it to me later as my first car. It handled so much better than the wallowing 60's Detroit iron of the time that I was put off US cars forever. Since the, I've owned Hillman, VW, Fiat, BMW, Toyota, Volvo, Audi, Audi. Had everything after the VW for over 10 years each, no water pump failures or other major engine issues other than the BMW 2002, which had oil consumption and transmission problems.
Some early years of the Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth 2.7L V6 engine supposedly had very similar problems. I heard that the problem was addressed with a redesign, but the popularity of that size engine did still suffer.
Stuff like this makes me appreciate my old Farmall that has a grease nipple on the water pump those water pumps last forever
Gm from 2000 to 2006 had instrument panel failures. Tahoe,suburbans,pickups. And the replacement parts also fail.
I'll never forget when I noticed cars were flying by us in our '03 Avalanche and I noticed we were moving slower. I asked my dad how fast we were going and he said 73mph, but then I realized the instrument panel failures I read about online finally hit us. That pick up did very well for us and never quit, but it had some tacky faults haha.
The water pump is an issue on the Focus MK3 as well. I had mine replaced at 12k miles.
Chain driven water pumps have been around for many years now. GM quad 4 engines were chain driven too and failed all the time, but it was the head gasket and cracked heads they were known for. The bigger problem is NOBODY checks their fluid levels anymore. Then something like this happens and there is a class action case? We were never told how many miles were on the car in question. Was it well over 100000 miles? I work on Fords every day (e series) and over the last 17 years, I can count on one hand how many water pumps I've changed on our fleet, many with well over 200000 miles on them. For the most part, water pumps of MOST modern vehicles will go the life of the vehicle. Id say anything past 150k is perfectly acceptable...CHECK YOUR FLUIDS OFTEN!
Gas e series are pretty much the best thing Ford ever built.
I owned a sable and the water pump failed. when I looked at the book the instructions said to lift the engine to remove and replace the water pump. I sold the car
Yep the standard water pump has what they call "weep holes" in it. They're tiny little holes that leak little bits of coolant when the pump is malfunctioning. Had to change one years ago on my El Camino. I just remember the details because I had to read up on how to change from the Haynes repair book.
The "weep hole" lets water out of the bearing so it can alert you to the issue before the bearing goes out from water contamination.
Otherwise the bearing would rust and seize before it leaked externally, giving no warning of failure.
I have a Freestyle which is the predecessor to the Flex. I thought it was genius that they ran the water pump off of the rear of the front most cam shaft. My Freestyle is an 06 with over 200k miles so I started looking at the Flex as a replacement. I came across this info on the net and decided to avoid the Flex like the plague. From what I understand the change in water pump location was made because that engine would not fit into their smaller vehicles with that water pump configuration. Just another example of ridiculously stupid engineering decisions!
I grew up in Novi and really enjoy hearing your news/stories from MI. I escaped the lousy weather in '92 heading to the Carolinas and never looked back. I do still like to visit once or twice a year though.......during the summer.😬
Nice design. I think there was a bit similar brain fart in early W124 Mercedeces. They had bad water pumps, which threw a bearing ball to timing chain drive.
Thanks For The Info..... I own a 2012 Edge....
I just replaced the water pump on my 01 Toyota Camry with 130k miles. It took me all afternoon. It's buried behind the timing belt. The hardest part is getting the timing cover off. Getting the new pump and timing belt on is very easy. When it failed it dumped horrible smelling Rusty water all over the driveway. Then the pulley which is turned by the timing belt got so sloppy the timing belt slipped a bit and it wouldn't run right. It's a bit of a trick to get the crankshaft correctly time with the valve train. I think if I had changed the coolant at some point the pump might not have failed.
I’m going to do the job myself. I can’t find any USA made chain so I’ll go with some cheap set. I WILL compare the new chain to the old before I install it. If it’s bogus I’ll get another but I’ll have the old one out for comparison. I’m told even the OEM chains are made overseas. On the plus side these cars can be picked up cheap. I bought one with a brand new set of tires for less than the cost of the tires!!!
I am a shade tree mechanic. I change my own oil, water pumps, alternator, belts, hoses, spark plugs, etc. As long as I can get it done within a 12 pack, I can manage. Brakes only if they're disk. No drums. When I buy a car, the first thing I do is to check what I can fix and what I can't fix. I looked at an Isuzu once and couldn't identify one single component under the hood. I shut the lid and politely declined. I hate being a slave to the auto shop for simple repairs. And a simple water pump should never cost $500. Hell, you can buy a reconditioned pump for $50 and a gasket for $5.
It's the issue with modern cars, very few people actually check the vitals on their car between services. My first car, early 70's Holden (Australian GM) it was the norm to check oil/coolant/tyres etc every week. Failing to do so was leaving yourself open to disaster.