NO ONE Will Listen To Your Song Without THIS!
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- Опубліковано 9 чер 2024
- What is a topline and why do you need one?
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Edited by @ConnorGilks
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Learn more about toplines and WAY more when you join my songwriting course here: bit.ly/TOPLINES
Complete songwriting course? Show us a song you’ve written that’s any good first. I’ll wait
@@jdjdjdjjc6535 do... do you not know how to google?
@@treyxaviermusic I’ll wait means I know there isn’t anyb
@@jdjdjdjjc6535 Cool cool
I love the shirt btw
I feel this. I write mostly instrumental so it’s always important to incorporate something to hold the focus…like a melody on top or a sudo vocal line. I didn’t know there was a term like this. I like it….top line…Sloppy Toppy Line.
slopline
From a slightly older generation perspective: Would you listen to Allman Bros' "Jessica" if the lead guitar was removed? No. You'd be bored pretty quickly. The rest of the music is great but it's great *as a backdrop* for that lead line.
All man bros are amazing when they’re instrumental that slide guitar work is so catchy
3:37 100% agree. I often have a really hard time following lyrics, so I’m usually focusing more on the melody, instead.
7:32 you don’t even have to become a singer, if you want to keep your music instrumental. But singing along to your melodies is a great trick to find out, wether they’re actually memorable or not.
That being said, there’s no real excuse in not at least trying to learn how to sing. It’s the one instrument we all have at no extra cost, and a lot of our musical intuition is based around that. So it should be a no-brainer, no matter what kind of music you make.
If you aren't singing your topline to yourself, nobody else will be.
People ask "should I go to school" and my answer is YES.
Not julliard, not berklee...your local community college.
Take the first two music classes which will be something like "sight singing and ear training" and "intro to keyboarding" and you can usually take them in the same term. If you want to spend 8-10 weeks doing something really impactful to your music experience and personal development, I can't stress this strongly enough; everything you learn after that will benefit from having committed to the handful of weeks it takes and in some states junior college is literally free. A smattering of fundamentals goes a LONG way.
Your community college has music classes?
I like how you've articulated something that I think I've always noticed but never really consciously thought about in my own music. Thinking of the songs I'm most proud of in my own music, there is usually something to direct your ear towards beyond just the riff and the vocals.
Man, you don't know how fckn helpful this video was! I often times felt there was something 'missing' in my songs and I definetly considered learning to sing; though it is really hard to get myself doing it, as I literally _never_ really sung before...
Also in my little compositions, I sometimes involved a little synth melody and more often than not, these songs felt more alive and catchy, guess I created a 'top line'...
Thanks so much, I have the feeling, that this realization could drastically change a lot for many of us!
Great advice. My music composition professor in college would make me hum/sing the melodies of my piano/chamber pieces to him before he let me play them for him or even show him the score.
If that initial presentation didn't grab him, I had to go back and try again.
This even happened when we were doing more "atonal" styles of pieces that people don't really associate with being very melodic music.
If there is nothing that demands attention, your piece won't get attention.
Smart prof! Academic composing has become a lot of pseudointellectual wankery. So important to have something for people to latch onto and for at least some of the music to be *communicable*
This is probably why singer/songwriters get this concept immediately. The human voice is the gateway to melodic consciousness.
My favorite types of music are rock songs. And the things they all have is a top line that never takes it foot off your neck. It’s guitar, then drum fill then verse, then bass fill, then guitar leads, verse, chorus, solo. Just never lets up.
Right on Trey! I love the fact you brought up the point about learning to sing. I’ve had some negative experiences with some gatekeeping when it comes to vocals, but I kept trying! I’ve been working on my voice for a little over 5 years now and I’ve made a lot of progress!
Don’t ever let anyone tell you you can’t pick up singing! It’s a skill just like any other!
People are the fucking WORST about gatekeeping singing, especially in the US. Cultures around the world sing all the time just for funsies and aren’t constantly shaming each other about it. It takes a LONG time to get anywhere with singing, glad to hear you’re making progress!
@@treyxaviermusic It certainly does! So I’m definitely taking it with a “in it for the long haul” mentality. Slow and steady progress is fine with me haha
Also, in response to your statement about the US. I have a feeling it might be connected to the major rise in pop music / pop idols in the 90s - early 2000s.
They kind of established a sort of singing standard and it’s totally reinforced by shows like American Idol, etc. Not implying that there’s anything wrong with that standard, but it kinda makes it so unique timbres and vocal quirks aren’t given as much recognition in modern music. I mean back in the day you could be monotoned af (Bob Dylan, imo) but still make great music if the actual music was solid.
There’s so much emphasis on (what is perceived to be) perfect production that it can be very discouraging to try to get into singing if you’re completely new to it. That and like many lead guitarists, singers also can develop a bit of a main character syndrome, which can definitely make for some toxic local communities.
Thankfully, we have the interwebs and wholesome musicians like yourself, to help foster positive music communities! Thanks so much for making the awesome content, and taking the time to respond to my comment! It made my day!
Dude this well put together and informative. Great presentation and also super funny
Great stuff man!
As a drummer who just brought a bass to try n learn to write songs.
Your videos are super helpful!
Thanks 🙏
A+. Hook, melody, voiceleading, vocals etc all serve this purpose and it's a thread throughout the whole song (or at least should be). It's really easy as a newbie to reject this concept but there's a good reason a communicable focal point that leads the listener is almost without exception a large part of bands' most loved and revered songs. The obscure ones are fun but by necessity tend to take more concentration and more listens.
There's a good reason bands like Dream Theater, Opeth and other bands writing obscure progressions and time signatures have, deapite this, enjoyed such widespread popularity and fanbases.
Awesome video!
I'm use to write soundtracks for short movies and that type of stuff, just now I'm starting to learn to write songs with vocals
This video helped me a lot
Such a great video. Even for those who may know that, it’s a great reminder to keep that a priority in the songwriting process.
maybe even a...."top" priority 😎
@@treyxaviermusic Ha! Yes, indeed. 🤣
Great advice!
Thank you Trey🤘🤘🤘
You rate/roasted my band Alinea during one of your live streams, we are no longer together, our drummer got diagnosed with Pancreatic cancer and is not going to make it. but I wanted to say thanks for your input and it meant alot. I enjoy singing and have been practicing alot lately. Singing and playing is alot harder then what you guys make it look haha but when u mentioned that in the video, it hit home with me and was inspiring to hear. I need to go my own way. Im Solar guy ha.
Keep doin what your doin brotha, you rule🤘
Great and informative. I've never heard the term before, but always assumed there needs to be a "lead" part to carry the song. You explained it well.
Thank you.
I wouldn’t mind a video about writing and recording vocal harmonies. Thanks Trey.
Thx 🙏🏻
Cool mate. Thanks 🧠🧠🤛
I'd like to see some more videos on melody, harmony, and some tips and tricks to building singing skills, to carry on with the theme of this video.
Oh come on Trey, ur singing is AMAZING!!
Dude I love the looks of that guitar
Is the TopLine another term for the “hook”? Love your vids man!! 🤘🏻
The hook is usually part of the topline, but every topline isn't a hook
I love your guitar
I want to write tons of songs that are not forefront and are capable of being given a top line, many kids perhaps. Just what I like, I dont make music for anyone but me. I have randomly added toplines at times but I stay away and I use my songs to sing in the car and shower. I only put them on major platforms so anyone else can do it
OMG I love "Friends" by Satriani too, I used to listen to the entire "Extremist" album on my walkman while cycling in the fields.
Another great instrumental band is Apocalyptica, their album "Reflections" is just brilliant and full of such top lines. I think there used to be an ad about car tires that was using a song from that album, that's how catchy they are. 😆
My typical process was to come up with a series of riffs (typically at least 3) that worked well together to form the basic melody. drums and bass would be added. for instrumentals, the riffs were often the top line, but some had lead guitar top lines over the riffs. Some had vocals (complete with verses and choruses) and guitar solos, and the topline would switch between riffs, vocals, and solos. This approach served me well for 3 CDs and 5 EPs worth of recorded material, until i needed a female vocalist to continue in the direction I wanted to go. Unable to get a vocalist, I just kind of stopped writing and recording music altogether. That was over 20 years ago. Now I'm retired and thinking about getting back into it. But for the last couple of years i've been mostly building guitars instead of playing guitar. In one song, the topline was general MIDI instrument #121 "guitar fret noise" pitch shifted up 2 octaves so it sounded like a glass harmonica. That song also had a guitar solo. It was a heavy metal ballad. Sort of "Tool" meets "Love Spirals Downwards".
I never knew it was called this, I just knew there was a “voice” to a song, it could be the guitar or a vocal or something but whatever it is the rest of the song is developed to strengthen its effect.
As someone who mostly listens to shoegaze, i have found myself listening to some music without a topline. All be it its typically not very good. Very interesting and inspiring video, glad your channel today.
The way you explain it, I would imagine it's harder to defend the copyright of music that doesn't have a topline
A topline is what makes a song catchy and compels you to play it over and over.
hilariously, when you said Kids by MGMT, it was in fact the lyrics and vocal melodies that I remembered and didn’t even think of the instrumental part until you played it… which actually reflects how I listen to non-instrumental music, where the lyrics and vocal are primary for me and the instrumentation is sometimes just “there”
I need MOAR toplines. haha
gib toplines fren GIB IT ME
Would love to do the full songwriting course man. But honestly just IMO you should have options to buy each section individually. I would buy just the topline one right now if it were an option. Again, love all the content man!
I considered that but since I didn’t structure it that way, if you bought only one part of the course it wouldn’t make sense out of context, it doesn’t have very clearly defined parts like that unfortunately. Since it’s mostly me writing a whole song, I go through it more by song section than by concepts like topline.
All that to say I wish I could but people would just end up PISSED hahaha
thank you for those tips, I really like the karaoke analogy, that was helpful. also, that guitar is awesome, what is the body, neck and fretboard material is it?
Roasted swamp ash body, maple/walnut neck, flame maple fretboard, you can see me order it here: ua-cam.com/video/a_s8girLAJs/v-deo.html
I find in my case that best songs are those that start from some hooky melody in my head and not from some riff that I come up with, then I try to incorporate that melody in riffs and solos. I think that a lot of modern metal songwriters should try to listen to some older metal and even classic rock songs and try to learn from there because almost all of those songs have great toplines, you dont't even need to have vocals to have topline, first thing that comes to my mind are instrumentals on early In Flames albums because evry single instrumental gets stuck in my head because of great toplines.
Man Made God is the fucking bee’s knees
Could we get a video on writing bridges? I keep falling into the trap of “when all else fails go to Bm”
... Wow... What an important lecture here today. Blew my mind ... no wonder why nobody likes to listen to me shred compared to like Nuno Bettencourt ... that dude IS the top line....whereas I'm the unstructured, unpurposeful mess .... Thanks Trey, this enlightened me.
Could you do a video about analyzing songs/listening to records you love for inspiration in songwriting? I was thinking about how fucking great Screaming for Vengeance is today but I cant really put my finger on any point on the record and say that's the make or break point that puts it above and beyond. Fairly sure the answer isnt only sick riffs bro.
Thumbs up just for the Satriani "Friends" love. "The Extremist" is such a great album.
All the instrumental bands you listed DO NOT DO IT FOR ME. I have to go like Gary Hoey, Buckethead or similar, and they also will skip the "topline" creating what I think is the best music around. To each their own, their not ine way to do anything but some people will never let it out of their head and will always write to the constraints of a listener they imagine. I am more creative than most, I imagine my listener is just the person that will match this song at the time I am writing. I love the channel, I just think I deviate from the norm in a way that is significant and I have over time come to accept it and love it.
0:04 "Hello internet and welcome to game theory"
Nice
I was thinking of learning how to sing, but man I need to learn how to sing after watching this
Great video Trey, couldn’t agree more with learning to sing, you don’t have to be amazing, I sounded like dog shite, now I just sound like a dog shit stain....hahah
Once I learned to sing and play I found myself on stage as a frontman and then they had to listen to my guitar playing . If you audition as a singer / guitar player you will usually win out over a guy who doesn’t sing
I actually had never heard this term. I suppose I've always written songs with vocals, so I already had a top line.
But I think the moment that really explained what a top line was, to me anyway, is when you explained there's ambient music playing and then stopped talking ( ua-cam.com/video/PQNYBDEKYz8/v-deo.html ). I honestly didn't notice the ambience until then. My ears tuned it out, but of course that background music fills out the video. Your speaking is the top line!
That's too funny, and so true! I can't find a singer so we do instrumental music. I learned how to sing because I wanted to know how to sing. Duh! In my first prop band, they stuck a microphone in front of me and said, "Sing this". So we had 4 part harmony. It may not have been perfect, but it beat the crap out of all the bands that had 1 singer. As for the "topline". It's the melody, or hook. But it's what people want to listen to. The best advice I ever had was form Randy Bachman. He said that when you write a song, it needs a melody right at the start. It draws people into the song and once you have their attention, you have to have more melody to keep[ it there. He only wrote a ton of hits with BTO and the Guess who so what would he know about song writing? Nobody has ever heard "Taking Care of Business" I bet!
I can't stop staring at that gorgeus guitar
I just wanna throw it out there that IMO some legendary songs actually have multiple "toplines" (some more prominent than others), and spread over various instruments. Bohemian Rhapsody, Stairway To Heaven, Smells Like Teen Spirit, Chop Suey etc. You know the second these songs start which song it is even without lyrics or vocals. Generally the vocals then take it to the next level (which also IMO is one of the most difficult things to achieve as a songwriter - making the lyrics and vocal melodies greater than already great and memorable music).
I wish I'd submitted something to the contest, but I'll try to join a stream for some critique soon. I would like to get your take on my material
Toplines are the reason a song is catchy.
thx for the video they
one thing that i always confused in song writing is fills or bridge, something that connecting one part to another. I struggle soo much in that area
it'll be good if u can put the light on it, thx
Sounds like you’re talking about transitions, this is something I cover in depth in my course
Nailthetopline
Now I need an example of a song WITHOUT a topline.
Edit: Wrote this too soon.
Genuine question/discussion point here: what would you say the top line of a breakdown is? Is it the drums? The guitar? Is it a moment where there is no top line to create/break tension?
I'd say there is no top line in that time, breakdowns are mostly a rhythmic sound. They kinda serve the same purpose as a tutti in funk/jazz music
Fair point in all that, however I would honestly listen to all of Megadeth's catalogue as karaoke tracks.
toplining is one of the hardest songwriting skills
I’m an active listener… I’m listening soo hard.
"Hifi tech death ti discuss overthrowing wendys to" tho
What's the difference between a top line and the hook
Aka motif. Aka nuance.
I hear your argument but without some examples I can't really make up my mind about this. Is this your experience or are you drawing from some kind of foundation?
Yes, yes I would listen to my everyday music as kareoke music, but it's prog or fusion 80% of the time, so there's interesting shit going on at all times lol
Do Tycho songs have a topline? My friends describe it as elevator music (but i like it) lol.
I'm sitting here thinking about a top line in the context of my favorite band, At The Drive In, and it's not specific vocal melodies or instrument parts that stick out for me. It the whole filtered through their energy. The opening thrust of One Armed Scissor is a kick in the chest. The bridge of Cosmonaut is bananas. The sway of Lopsided. Watch them play One Armed Scissor live on Letterman. It's on youtube. That set is what I mean.
My band, Stationary Giant, tries to capture that same feeling. If we aren't feeling the tune ..... we don't record it and we won't play it live. You can hear on a recording wether or not the band is into it. A great hook is ..... great ...... but if you're not playing it like you f*cking mean it then people will notice.
Right. Feeling is more important IMO. No emotional content is junk, top line or not. I've honestly never heard of this term before but I think he means ear worms. I hate ear worms.
My entire set is top line. Rofl.
Thass wassup
Always Play Melodic 🤘
I'm probably late to noticing it, but that guitar looks amazing.
Thanks, it’s the one I ordered in the Kiesel builder video, I guess this is the first proper video I’ve used it in hahaha
@@treyxaviermusic I'll have to check it out!
Makes a lot of sense, right! But, if anything, shouldn't it be the other way around? Since a topline is actually the thing you want to "say", the focal point, shouldn't you start with writing this focal point first and writing the chords and baselines after, so you can give your topline more meaning or emphasis?
I mean, that's how I do it, but I write my songs from the ground up most of the time. Some people work better doing it the other way around
should the topline be going at all times? can there be parts with just instrumental stuff going on or does there always have to be a top line hooking you in?
Vocals and solo combination is the most common modern top line. A solo alone most likely is not a top line.
Think of it in the rock context. If the vocal stops, you can just have a chord progression* going, but it is generally brief or else people are going to get very bored.
Alternatively, again in the rock context, what usually happens when the vocal stops? There is a guitar solo. That's just another version of a top line.
*just wanted to note that a well constructed chord progression will have an implied melody. Power chords won't get you there but many classical piano pieces don't have obvious melodic li especially but still have a "top line" present. Chopin prelude no 9 is in this category.
I don’t think there always HAS to be anything, it can be fatiguing if the music doesn’t breathe a bit. I would notice how much airtime of songs you like have no topline, like what percentage, and where in the song it occurs. It’s best to use it dynamically like any other element, but always beware dead air.
Check out the song "Then She Did" by Janes Addiction. Imo this is a good example of a song where there are portions with no real top line. Especially in the part before the lyrics "I went to see your pictures//spread them across the floor". It makes it so when those lyrics, which are pretty soft spoken come in it pulls your attention more than it would otherwise.
Also by Jane's Addiction (a personal favorite band) the song Ocean Size, the whole song strips down to just one acoustic guitar, a simple E, G, D chord progression, with no real top line and to me it makes the guitar solo just explode.
Ig my point is no, I don't think you always need a top line, as it can be used to enhance dynamics
Any example of known or famous songs without a top line?
Thanx.
I can't think of any, and I wouldn't be surprised if they basically didn't exist.
@@treyxaviermusic Yeah, I can't think of one either. But it would be extremely interesting if we could find an outlier from a well known band. And see how it panned out.
A video on writing better lyrics would be interesting.
Yes - no top line, no point. Satch is King of catchy top lines that get stuck in your head.
That Final Fantasy sweep intro tho
I never played any of those games, does that sound like one of the songs?
@@treyxaviermusic Yessir, it's the beginning arpeggio for the most iconic Final Fantasy song/theme known as "Crystal Theme," just in a different key.
@@verstamp ha that's funny, I just listened to it and it is the same. That's mostly just because it's just a straight up a majadd9 arpeggio, I thought it wasn't even interesting enough to be distinct hahaha
@@treyxaviermusic you channeled (additional) greatness 🙏
So we doing songwriting contest 2022? Lol
What is this video about again ?
Without a beard, I think Trey would look like Jack Ritter, just a hunch.
Give some idea of your opinions on bands like ISIS (the band), Mogwai, Russian Circles, blah, blah, blah...successful mostly instrumental bands that have memorable songs with strong melodies, but not necessarily a strong (vocal) topline.
Successful is kind of a relative term, so keep that in mind - those are VERY niche bands with a cult audience. What I've heard of those bands is mostly about mastery of dynamics more than anything else, Mogwai in particular.
Great video, but after you revealed you had background music playing, I couldn't stop listening to that
Does Orion have a top line?
by Metallica
caution: contains words of wisdom.
Do you mean "hook" ?
I can understanding how the term "top line" can be confusing for some. I have a degree in music and honestly can't remember ever hearing the term. I think in my day we just always called it a melody. Music and lyrics, chords and melody, music and melody, etc... Anyhoo... the part that went with the chord changes. I just always assumed as a songwriter, unless you're writing background music, you needed both parts for song. Kinda makes you scared for the future. Hopefully music doesn't devolve anymore. 20 years from now, GearGods contest # 2. "Guys... you need more than just a 3 minute drone of one note for song."
The problem is that "melody" is IMO not descriptive enough. Sometimes it's a riff, sometimes it's growling vox, sometimes it's voiceleading -- whatever is being used to lead the listener.
I think, Trey calls this a top line because a focal point in the song can be anything, for example rhythm of intro breakdown in The Downfall of Us All by A Day Remember. This song has a great chorus and verses, but the first thing come to my mind when I think of the song is the intro. Also drops from hard trap or dubstep came to my mind.
So I think top line is just the first thing that would come to your mind when you think about the song
Yeah they didn't use it in any of the classes I took either, it's basically a pop music term and since I was mainly a jazz performance (lol ask me if I can play autumn leaves) and then composition major it didn't get kicked around. It's everywhere in the music industry and songwriting circles though, and I like it because it applies across all genres
@@treyxaviermusic Freakin’ Berklee not teaching us the basics. ;-)
Why your voice higher?
higher than what
i rememer you saying "well there's a top line" on a few of my tracks that you reviewed. I took that as a positive thing even though I really didn't understand what you meant. being self thought I call that writing something hooky. but this mind set limits me. i think Top Line kinda opens more possibility the way you describe it. i had writers block after sending my songs in to you. but I'm starting again and thinking about what I'm doing as I'm doing it. sometimes we just need a little push in the right direction. I'm definaly exparamenting more with vocals. somehow over the years I stopped putting in the effort and focust on the lyrics more. Thank you.
where does metalicas orion and megadeths wake up dead fit into all this?
so...you're the top topline, Trey...
My god you’re right
Bottom line… you need a top line 😂
Shit that should have been my headline
@@treyxaviermusic 😂😂
Always available to come up with titles. 🤣
Idk you're a jrpg gamer weab tho. That ff intro
Man even most background music has a top line. Watch some old porn, they’re bloody well shredding for the music in some of those films
I'll add to the example with some Elder Scrolls games.
Think of your favorite ambient track from Skyrim. Got it? Great. Now ask yourself, is it as good as Wings of Kynareth from Oblivion? No. No it's not, and now you know why. Lol
Fun Fact: In Nil by Mouth by Haken, the rhythm is the top line for quite some time
Wtf do I get that shirt???
www.teepublic.com/baseball-tee/2370454-tabs-pls
If you can't hum it....ain't no top line "melody"...
Couldn’t a riff be the top line????
All of the doom soundtrack and other fan made songs in a similar style don’t have a top line but the riff is supposed to serve the same purpose
Growing up I never cared for any of this stuff. Textures was hands down the greatest band to my ears, they had a great following by being original. Yes, it might have been a target market but drawing circles was the greatest albums to my ears. Lots of misinformation and I'm not downing your videos but I never cared about any of this as a consumer, I just think people are lacking in intellect nowadays and require some guideline just like hip hop or that caca catchy music. Also vocalists water down the music at times, in my asshole opinion bands are better without vocalists unless the vocalist is ok with technical structures and being on rhythm with odd time meters. I dont play music to get popular so my opinion probably doesn't matter but I will say one thing and that's the mere fact that creating technical music and pushing my limits made me a better musician. Play for fun guys, stop worrying about structure and be original
Textures is great, I don’t really understand your point though, they’ve got toplines galore
@Gear Gods was just sayin I never really payed attention to all that stuff. I definitely enjoyed the video but was surprised to hear your take on structuring songs. I just never cared for any of that personally is all. Either way keep on making videos my guy I'm always looking forward to your stuff. Not much a fan of the songwriting stuff but as far as everything else I fucking love it lol.