I want to chime in on what the Spitfire guy said about using live players. Using live players doesn't always improve the track if you don't choose the right player. Case in point: I was working as a music producer in Germany at a local studio in Dusseldorf. We found this young artist from England whom we wanted to produce. It was just him and his acoustic guitar, and he would sing his original songs in front of you...and you'd be gone. Fantastic songs and talent. Anyway, we record him and decide to overdub his guitar playing with a pro session player as this young guy's playing was not perfect: hesitant, timid, and not all strings strummed at the same time. We thought we could improve on that. So we hired this famous german session guitarist that, apparently, had been playing session guitar on almost every hit on the radio. His techie came up a day earlier with a van to set up. In the van, over 100 guitars, some of them costing tens of thousands, many, many old famous amps, microphones (U78s, etc) and also his own matrix switching system so that he could dial a different sound from the control room. When he set-up his amps, he's measured the distance of the mic to the amp with a measuring tape. You get the picture yet?... So he starts playing. The songs were not difficult technically speaking, so he played them faultlessly, even when double-tracked or triple-tracked, it was perfect, utilising the perfect guitars, amps and microphones. Perfect. Yet, after he left (and got paid solidly), his tracks - we realised - were totally inadequate and soul-less, and un-usable. Why?...TOO perfect! Cut the story short, we went back and re-recorded our young artist, with his hesitant, shy, vulnerable playing style. It was magic. That's what the song needed: this vulnerability and innocence and "analog" imperfection, so much so that I even kept the creaking sound of the bar stool in his booth just before he started playing! Food analogy: it was like the crust of a fresh French baguette... Choose the right human player, because any player - just a player who's human - might not actually improve the song, that's my point.
Excellent point, and i think it plays to the last part Jon talks about as well, and the core of the comment. The "live" player is there to bring _realness and authenticity_ to the track. In your example the imperfection was what made the performance authentic. :)
Sounds like a Conor oberst or Elliot smith situation. I couldn’t imagine songs like First day of my life or Needle in the hay being some super slick perfect performances, they just wouldn’t even be the same songs if they were
"over 100 guitars, some of them costing tens of thousands, many, many old famous amps, microphones (U78s, etc) and also his own matrix switching system" Hilarious. Trying too hard. We never use the "perfect" players at all. Soul death.
I think learning to copy is awesome. For me, that's how I got good at everything from bass to drum programming. I'd say, "how'd they get it like that?" And go deep into the rabbit holes until I could recreate it. Then you can put it together with other stuff. This is all such great advice and feels fantastic to hear
Exactly what I've been doing. How'd they get this and that element to work so well as a whole. Especially current chart pop music. Putting the track, or even better, the individual stems into my daw and trying to replicate the arrangement structure, where the drum rolls come in etc. I'm using some Oliver powertools 1, 2 & 3 one shots atm. The hope is to get as close as I can to the sound and eventually be able to go my own way. I think alot of pro producers gained alot by learning this way too. I'm not a pro, so I'm not quite so pressured, but I'm with you in enjoying this method of questioning, learning and putting into practice!
I still remember buying an album of a popular artist the day it came out (back in '98) and got a surprise ticket to a back lot concert the next day (behind the store). This was an artist who had sold millions of albums previously. Anyway, he didn't have his band with him so he played his own guitar, but then the song had a piano part and he literally slung the guitar behind his back with a short pause in the music and started playing piano. The song on the album was professionally recorded and mixed, but here he was playing two different instruments, like, "hold on, let me switch." it was great.
ya gotta love the real ones, they just are clearly in their element and at the top of their game . often a life changing thing to witness . a performance of this genuine-ness level . We know from when we grew up that talent like this exists . it's possible that our culture is not as focused on music as it once was. I got to the point when I realized that playing my instrument is a cultural responsibility
As someone coming to this from the opposite end, a total hobbyist, having fun learning, these insights are great. Help me understand why different parts of what I record sound like different shades of dog snot.
also you find nuggets with mistakingly tweeking stuff, "how did you find or tweek that sounds?" exploration specialy in masterising stuff pan and distance its endlessss
I strongly disagree with this kinda opinions as it's harmful for believing such a wrong believe that doesn't work and I think it's a confusion and a limitation for people's mind who really want to do something beautiful it's like some of the religion's lie that have other reasons(like fooling you) but puts you in limitation places as you can not fly with fly simulator programs and originally I consider it's coming from vst investors (like famous engineers who have hands on making them) and EDM producers who make the worst sounding fl studio based songs and give it to real people with real gears to make them sound ok
@@miladbarikani3591 Basic gear could be considered singing in a chapel, boom you're creating a sound that reaches the heavens. Know you're coming from a different place with this but felt worth the detour.
yes, I agree. For my first album (instrumental cinematic-ambient genre fused with postrock / synth arp), I just had a strymon bluesky pedal and created some really huge and beautiful/otherworldly sonic soundscapes. Feel free to go listen on my channel if interested and sub if you like. Have a great day
Thank you for pointing out that gradual growth gets you there. As a hobbyist, wearing all the hats can be daunting and you have to give yourself some grace in the process. There's a lot to learn about singing, songwriting, playing various instruments, arranging, tracking, mixing & mastering. Labels hire a seasoned professional to handle each of these tasks. Weekend warriors like myself will keep moving up that in-the-box production hill slowly but surely. 👍
Summaries Muddy Mixes: This is a common issue where there's a build-up in the low mid frequencies (200Hz to 500Hz). This is often due to the choice of instruments and how they're mixed together. The speaker suggests thinking of mixes as an upside-down pyramid, with the low frequencies at the bottom and the high frequencies at the top. Lack of Dynamics: Many new composers fail to effectively use dynamics in their music. This can be especially problematic when trying to recreate an orchestral performance or other complex soundscapes. Understanding how to manipulate the dynamics of an instrument can greatly improve the quality of a composition. Unfinished Music: The speaker recommends always trying to make a track sound as polished as possible before sending it off. This includes spending time on mixing and mastering the track to the best of your ability. Misunderstanding the Genre: It's important to thoroughly understand the genre you're working in. This includes researching the best music in that genre, learning about the recording techniques used, and understanding the mindset of the creators in that genre. Lack of Originality: Many new composers struggle to find their own unique sound and instead end up sounding like other artists. The speaker suggests learning from multiple artists and combining what you like from each to create something uniquely yours. Looping Sections: Overusing loops can make a track sound repetitive and uninteresting. It's important to make your music change and develop over time, even if it's an underscore track. Hiring Live Musicians: The speaker discusses the benefits of hiring live musicians to add to the quality of the music. While it's possible to create professional-sounding music using only digital tools, live musicians can add a level of authenticity and depth to a track. Reverb: The use of reverb was also discussed. The speaker suggests using the same reverb on all instruments to create a cohesive sound. By ChatGPT 4 😅
@@ej8736variation is the key. In the early 90’s my first composition teacher made me write a theme with variations for piano. I thought that the task was silly. Nobody composes that anymore. It took me several years to understand that I wasn’t learning “theme and variations”, I was learning composition!
The tweet was fine. As an amateur I am extremely interested in what can make me improve. Pinpointing to something concrete to improve is INVALUABLE to everyone that would like to further improve their skills and abilities. If you can't take criticism, you won't ever improve. It took me years to learn this, but now at 52 I am much better at separating my ego from my music and responses to it. I often disagree with feedback, but never sad or offended. I in part learnt this by being in studios with producers and engineers who didn't put up with any crap. To paraphrase what one of them said to me: "I don't care how you feel, we need to finish this song. And you need to play the part or we'll find someone who can." We finished the song and I eventually learn my lesson; It's all about the song, and the performance. Not about YOU. I missed the tweet as it happened myself, but I am not surprised it got the responses it did. Musicians and writers often have fragile egos and often struggle to separate their feeling from what they have crafted. I think it's some part of creativity and the fact that songs and performances live side by side in out head with our feelings. Most professionals know how to take feedback and criticism, and many non-professionals don't. I see this all the time, and I am a victim to it myself. Even now, there are time I have to swallow my pride, count to ten and get my shit together. It's all good. Having ones feeling hurt doesn't last. It I'll pass in a minute.
You made a great point about ego. I used to be very attached to my songs in my teens and 20s. Those songs were "me". I don't feel that now, maybe it's an age thing (I'm 47 btw) but my music is "what I do" not "who I am". I feel this detachment is beneficial when wanting to improve and learn because criticism is not a reflection of us or what we did but rather a look into what we can do. Not sure if I made sense or just made this too philosophical. :)
That's not a music thing, that's a human thing. Regardless of your occupation, doing the job and not making it about your feelings is a crucial part of what it means to be/act professional. :)
02:25 yeah, that are those „special talents“. And even those people have to learn how to use a DAW first to bring their creativity into a track! 🙈 In my opinion: „Fred Again“ is such an incredibly gifted person! Everything he puts his hand on in terms of music, he turns into gold! 😅👌🏼 Most producers do only one genre of music, but he does so many different and everything touches your soul in some kind! He even finds small talented singers and make a banger with them which is extremely cool in my opinion! Even if it’s normally not my type of music, i like it! That just tells how great he is! Incredibly talented person! Even his live shows are incredible! 😳
I think you did well with the whole payment issue! We have to accept that what we do is both very valuable, but also not... very valuable. As an illustrator/Graphical artist mainly, I have seen this discussion there as well. Fact is, no matter how good you are, you are only as valuable, monetarily meaning, as the product you take part in is worth, monetarily. That is just how it is. And if both of you don't gain much in terms of money by working together, other than maybe the chance of getting experience or exposure, then demanding a lot of money for your efforts is just not the way. The whole "All I can offer is a chance of exposure" (And a sandwich) IS a valid one. It just is. Unless, obviously, the guy you work for is using you to actually get paid himself. I have an illustrator friend who tried to demand money for work on a children's book, when the fact was the book was not going to make any money at all. And he was all "We don't expect the plumber to work for exposure, do we?!??". No... we don't. But... you are not a plumber. What you do has very little practical, measurable worth, until there is an audience ready to pay you. Deal with it.
i only play unprepared live improvs daily on live stream - this not just a great creative outlet but also tremendously helped to fight perfectionism - most thing wont be perfect in this situation but we just have to keep going & build on that. great video, great insights / tips
For me definitily playing mistakes are the worst. Bad tone quality is one thing, but the first things my friends always noticed when I started making music were timing issues or other mistakes. The most important thing I learnt was not to be lazy, practice my stuff, do as many takes as needed and edit every thing that is bothering me.
Ugh same. I used to be incredibly lazy when it came to good takes. I'd spend more time trying to fix it digitally than it would have taken to just practice and re-record the part. In my experience, I can hear every shortcut I'd take, so it's best to hunker down and get it right.
this was really informative, thank you. for my fellow hobbyists: don't try to cram all those cool new musical concepts you learned about and all those sick ideas you had in a single track. Keeping things clear and focused is really important. At least thats what I've learned from my experience. Oh, also make "breathing pauses" in your melodies even whe making instrumental music (you don't always have to, but it's generally better this way).
I think a lot of the comments were probably based on one’s own insecurities and obstacles they’ve overcome (including mine). We are hyper aware of our weaknesses as artists and it’s easy to spot those in others. What I like about this video is your ability to discuss the journey of the artist and how being “amateur” at something is actually a strength because it creates space for learning moments. Continually showing up and working hard at whatever one feels needs attention in their craft is perhaps one of the most important aspects of being creative today.
I think there's a divide between a hobbyist musician/composer that dreams of fame or at least a following verses composers who want to earn a living being somewhat anonymous. Maybe the term "working composer" would be a great distinction.
With it being on twitter, there's also probably a majority that have never learned a piece of music on an instrument but are incredibly judgy based on something they heard on a podcast once that they think makes them sound smart.
If the question had been “What things do you think make a track sound more professional?” then I think there may have been less controversy in the answers. There was lots of great advice to up your game but might have come across critical labelling people as “amateur” (which tends to be used in a derogatory context).
Yea, that would have been a better way to phrase the question. Lesson learned, but glad the tweet was seen by so many, which led to some excellent advice.
In the industry pros don’t talk like amateurs so it’s common that we say stuff like…that sounds like shit. It’s not a big deal because we know the industry. It’s not for everybody. Actually, to expound on that…the industry like aggressive people.
Ear fatigue can be the enemy as well, what sounded great yesterday might not sound great tomorrow. Monitors, workspace, choice of Daw weapons, etc. are all contributing factors.
WAIT WAS THAT ME IN THIS VIDEO?! This was an amazing video, Jon! You put a lot of good time and thought into this topic, and I'm super glad you put this out. have a good one!
If you can make one idea last 3mins in a 3-act structure, you are on your way to making a living writing production music. Adding just one live player will elevate that music.
New subscriber here and novice musician. I mostly record for use in my UA-cam videos but I'm always striving to get better. Who knows, maybe someday other people will want to use my music in their videos. Either way every time you sit down to record you have the opportunity to create something amazing.
Jon, your videos are not only extremely informative but SO well made and a pure joy to watch! That’s why I always prefer your vids over others. Thank you so much for your efforts! Best, Andy
A good example is, Paul McCartney. After 60 years of Beatles legend and, Paul still being alive, many people think of him as a born genius. Popped out of mom crying in melody. I have performed as P and have been a fan since the day they performed on Ed Sullivan. I have listened to every Hamburg Germany performance's, Cavern, Star Club bar gigs and Beatles (including Paul's) demos of great hits there are known to the world. Paul's original performances of I Saw Her Standing There, prior to George Martin's encouragement, suggestions and production was a very basic to boring sounding blues song. What happened to, with or for Paul was, he listened to his master. He learned. Even when we can assume him soaking in his most youthful arrogance, he obviously used the suggestions from Sir G. Martin. So between 22 and 27, many moments of genius began to materialize. After that, year after year, this began to happen more & more often and many times, the new moment better than the previous moment. Had Paul not met George Martin, he would have been a fine guitarist/piano player somewhere singing on weekends for someone but, subtract the competition with John Lennon, a job working in the studio requiring him to create and his maturity to listen to his master, in his twenties he became one of the best to ever write a song. If not the best.
As a part time mixer. I get it, wondering if the track is “finished” cause the blowback from “critics” can be brutal. But I like the attitude of not everything is gonna be a masterpiece and it’s better to make something and have it be sub par than not put it out at all. And a lot of people are very insecure. Had a coworker share a track he made and I told him “it’s a start”. I didn’t hate on it but he devastated himself when I was being fair. He didn’t like me the rest of the time we worked together and really tortured himself over his first product. Not over pressuring but always looking to iron out one detail at a time is how to be good at anything.
I made an 16track album on my FL studio mobile... The quality is bad but I couldn't afford being in a studio at the time... So I just used what I had: mediocre headphones and phone mic that's it! But yeah I don't need a studio with a bunch of stuff, do I suffer in quality? Yes! But I use it to my advantage, I try to make it my own identity and originality ... And I each time I make a song I learn from my previous mistakes and I improve always... Always !!! Use your disadvantages as your advantages!
I totally agree. I think people focus way too much on production issues nowadays compared to songwriting skills. Of course the best thing is to hear great songs that are also produced well. But I really don't understand people who can't enjoy a great song just because some bass frequency is a little bit too "low" or "muddy" for them or there's "too much reverb" etc. Have these people totally forgotten what music is suppose to be about? Great songwriting with something interesting to say. Someone complained once that Dog man star by Suede was "trash" because of "too much reverb". I had never even focused on the reverb as an "issue" while listening to it. To me it was just part of the sound. What I focused on was the great album they created with still most of my favorite Suede songs on it.
@@dach3405 Dogman Star is a classic. People have been dumbed down by corporate produced music so they expect production to follow a fixed set of rules, it's incredibly boring.
I saw that tweet and didn't reply to it because the discussion was going downhill. I have decades of experience in writing multiple genres of music but I'm and will be an amateur writer/composer. I don't have the ambition to be professional, I do what I love for the sake of loving to do it. If I wanted to be professional there would be an extra layer I would need to add in the form of time, learning and commitment. I feel it is important that people that want to be professional understand that extra layer exist and that they cannot just assume that because they can put something to work on a DAW and want to make a living they are automatically professional. Ignoring that extra is what leads to sounding amateurish. It's wishful thinking that, when confronted, feels like a personal attack. On the other hand, amateur or not, I want my music to be the best I can write and produce, so instead of feeling attacked, I thank the professionals that share their insights. I can't do anything about some of those insights, but there are others that I go "oh that's actually a good point" and try to incorporate it in my knowledge and workflow. As far as I'm concerned I appreciate the feedback, ideas, insights and I am grateful that professional composers actually share this knowledge instead of gatekeeping it.
Nah, I was born with my ears fully trained, a prodigy on all instruments, and I could even sing opera. sadly I lost all that when I started making music.
Another great video Jon. I’m currently tackling the whole EQ Muddy v Thin mixes. It’s reassuring for me to know I’m doing some things right. The more I write the slightly easier it gets.
I like how this is more about the overall production before the mix. Whatever you know that will help me learn to produce listener friendly music, that's what I want to know.
I agree that the quality of music depends largely on the performance of the musicians (depends on genre). Good musicians can connect different spaces. Additionally, the mixing style and the producer's understanding of the song idea are also tremendously important.
As an amateur composer this was so interesting to watch. Tying to achieve a balanced sound is one of the things I find most difficult and your pyramid trick just made so much sense when you mentioned it- will definitely keep it in mind moving forward! Thank you for sharing your insights ❤
There is this record called “talking Book” by Stevie Wonder. I love listening to that album because he uses so many instruments that might clash but somehow it works in the mix, for a lot of different reasons, but it’s just a marvel to study the mix on that record.
Great points! How violins can make the sound “feel real” is touching on the reality of real versus counterfeit. It’s safer for humanity to always choose the real living over the dead machine/AI. The performance and spirit of the song will always prevail over the perceived benefits of maximizing the sonic landscape with tech. I’d rather my songs sound like cassette demos with a live band than to sound like modern radio but counterfeit. We are in a spiritual war of sorts.
as a Video game music composer, i am content with my abilities. my clients are pleased, and if not quite, it's fixable and they can tell easily what's wrong. having experienced imposter syndrome often, i can tell you that each Person has a style and strength for a certain Sound. my thing is 8 bit chiptune and anything above is still something i need to learn. i know that every song and art piece has its place Here and it will Most likely be pleasing someone Out there. good luck, all!
I think you make a good point at 4:05 "because the instruments I chose work together, not because I did something magic with the EQ". Unfortunately then you immediately go into that EQ'ing issue. This video is for composers. Meaning: they can tinker with the notes. A transparent comes from instrumentation (yes, you use that word briefly) and arrangement. Eq'ing and anything software should be fine tuning.
DYNAMICS IS KEY! I get the most reaction from a dynamic shift more than anything. Loud > quiet, quiet > loud, tempo change, throw in an alternate version of the riff... First time I realized this I was jamming with my brother me on guitar him on drums, and I was just playing a riff over n over and he was doing his thing, then at one point he switched gears and initiated a "build up" on the toms, increasing in intensity building up to that quick split second silence before coming back hard with the beat at a "half-speed" to make it heavy like an object that weighs many pounds. Anyways we had a buddy there watching and he was so stoked, he's like "holy shit, that was unreal!" Told him I was literally just repeating the same riff LOL. Doesn't matter apparently, the variation and contrast is what stands out!
I myself am a home studio nobody, my biggest issue is everything will sound great in the DAW but the mix always sounds vastly different on different mediums. Car stereo the mix sounds awful, one pair of headphones sounds amazing, a different brand headphones the mix sounds awful. It’s always blown my mind that a professional recording somehow sounds great on all mediums but my home recordings mixes can sound so vastly different from on to the other. I never know which source to trust, so I don’t trust any of them and just assume my mixes are garbage.
There are daw tools called "Spectrum Analyzers". And that gives one a visual representation(in real time) of what the sound waves look like, either as a whole or per channel. There are many courses available, both for free and pay, in regards to how one may try to be an audio engineer in addition to being a composer.
May need a good flat-response source of audio. Commercial speakers color the sound, also consider listening to some of your favorite songs on that system. Listen very carefully to things you know sound bad, for example the guitar. It helps to get your hands on multi tracks I suppose, but in my case I use Rick Beato's "What makes this song great series". I focus on what I like. But listen to it on the same speakers you mix with. Then on something else where it fail. Make sure to compare something you already know works on these different sound systems. Additionally know this, there are limits to lower frequencies. The first is the speakers, can they reproduce that low range reliably (not coloring it )? And if you go lower... Then your room, is it setup to make reproducing that well enough? To be completely honest, I use a pair of semi flat response headphones (cheap PreSonus) with a plugin that tries to flatten that signal then use something else to fill in the bass frequency. Finally, since I don't particularly like low end, I tend to keep it low and centered. It's a poor man's way out, heck it may be bad advice ... But the point I'm making is, look for low hanging fruit so you are not overwhelmed. Cutting off some of the lower end can help (below 60Hz, and really by cutting I mean ducking... Don't let it go to high). Also you can use side chain for that. What I mean is make the amount allowed on your bass depend on your kick drum. Then make the amount allowed on your guitar depend on both the kick and bass. Not to mention, avoid overlapping low end instruments. Finally check your frequency spectrum. Carving out spaces can help a ton, just lower some DB in a certain frequency on one instrument and other frequency in the clashing instrument and you're cool. Generally try and thing well this instrument gets such and such range, this instrument this other... Good luck on your mixes hope this helps
Your problem is, that you produce your music with bad speakers/headphones! You need headphones and speakers with a good neutral frequency response! If your Headphones extremely Boosts your Highs and Mids for example, but lacks in Bass and you optimise the track so that it sounds good on this headphones, then it will sound Muddy and awful on good speakers because the track lacks extremely in mids and highs then and only has lots of bass! So there are two things that you must do! First of all, buy studio headphones and speakers, or simply use good neutral sounding speakers and secondly, you have to put lots of work in your mixing and mastering! Mixing and mastering could change your song Completely! It could make a banger out of an average sounding track or it could make a perfect song sounding like trash! 😬✌🏼
That tweet really showed the highs and lows of the Internet. How you reflected on Christian's response was pretty spot on; a lot of people seemed to miss the point he was the owner of a huge sample company suggesting you use live players. Asking friends for musical favours you can return is how most people start out. On reflection, it's badly mixed stuff that gives away a lack of professionalism most to me.
I will leave the detail topics to others as I am learning... I will say your set and editing is very good, your use of warm lighting vs. blue LEDs strips, is like watching honey baked video 🍯
The upside-down pyramid way of looking at a mix is super handy and eye opening. I've watched a lot of videos about how to mix, and this is the first time I've seen something like that. Thank you!
I had horrible mixes at my home studio when i first started. Didn't have the internet like we do today so i interned at a music studio that had an analog room and a digital room. I learned in the analog room and you could literally get a different mix each pass. But learning the long form mixing helped my digital mixes tremendously! Many of the tips here I learned the hard way.. nobody was feeling my music. Then my issue was too much polish and my mixes weren't gritty enough lol.
For me personally the hump to get over was mastering. Meaning leaving enough head room on my tracks. Also, battling the built-in EQ in my headphones which made everything sound deceivingly good... then when I would listen my stuff on other systems it would lack everything and it was poorly mixed. Izotope Arc 3 helps with this issue. Also, as you mention dynamics, bringing certain instruments forward during certain moments, etc...
The best advice I had was 'listen to your favourite songs in your mixing position'. I sat down at my desk, cracked a beer (or 10!), and just spent the night listening to all of the music I'd been listening to my whole life and knew inside out. That improved my mixes more than anything else.
@@Dave-Rough-Diamond-Dunn are you saying you used what you gathered from your favorite music to inform how you should mix yours? just curious. I need mixing tips lol
@@loftyjones675 Sorry mate, I started a reply, but I was out and had to 'discard' because I needed to be in the moment, or it'd be rude. I still think it's just as rude to interrupt a real time conversation with someone online, but you can't be staring at your phone when you're out and sitting at a table with 5 other people. I think on UA-cam, it's no biggie, people don't really expect an immediate response anyway. So yeah, you'd be familiar with the idea of having a reference track for a particular song. You find a song with the same vibe, and the sound you're going for, and add it as a track in your DAW. As you mix, but usually, towards the end, you see how it stacks up against your song, so you can adjust things to make your song sound more professional. That usually comes in to play once your song is 99% mixed, getting it ready for mastering, or actually mastering. What I was talking about though, has a little bit of a wider scope, it's more about getting to know your listening environment. So spend the time to relax, and listen to all of your favourite music, so you can get a good grip on what your speakers are actually delivering. I listened to all of my favourite songs, from many different decades and genres, Carl Perkins, Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent, Deep Purple and Black Sabbath, Status Quo and Slade, Adam and the Ants, Wasp and Motley Crue, Beastie Boys, Eminem and Nelly, Taylor and Miley, Bruno Mars, and Motorhead and FKN Slayer! So many more, I'd be here all night listing them! But after that (I'm still doing it), I had so more understanding about what my speakers were delivering. As a particular example, I'd never thought 'hey, with Status Quo, you can really hear the bass, and the guitars sound heavy and distorted, but really, all the guts is coming from the bass'. Just an example, but I now know how much bass I should be hearing, and I was putting way less bass than any of the songs I listened to. Dua Lipa, Taylor, and Brittany songs gave me the same sort of reference points too. I was listening to music everywhere, except sitting in front of the computer where I record and mix my own music. Sitting in your mixing position, relaxing, and listening to music you've heard 10,000 times, is the most helpful advice I've ever had. 🙂👍
@@Dave-Rough-Diamond-Dunn that's beautiful advice! thank you so much man. yeah don't sweat it at all, life comes first (: I never expect a response when I leave a youtube comment, so getting one at all is nice.
The solution to your problem is getting your room treated with Rockwool sound panels on every wall and ceiling then calibrating your headphones and speakers with SoundID Reference. You'll then have trust worthy consistent mixes across all systems.
All the new camera angles! It's been a real joy watching your channel get more "pro." The lessons you describe here for music apply in this world too... and you keep getting better and better. Great work, my friend.
I would add the slight caveat that sometimes composers mock up pieces with string or drum plugins and don’t spend a ton of time making them sound realistic because the person they play it for knows it’s meant to be re-recorded with real instruments. So I’d separate demos / mock-ups from music that’s presented as final
Yes, I guess it depend on the workflow. I like giving the general idea of what I am looking with what we have already to a real pro, sometimes they come up with something even better than if I'd given them the notes to play.
you still want to make it sound as polished as possible. i’m sure you know and understand this, but spending a few hours mixing a demo can make or break it. a well mixed demo will be picked over a poorly mixed one in many cases
For me, I feel like trying to be minimalist has in some ways helped and in other ways hurt my music making. Like, I think one of the best things I ever did for myself was making all my own drum samples by sampling from old records and vinyl rips. I still have all the samples I made from sophomore year in high school, and I can tell where I got things right and where my ears were still learning. The thing is, now I have a huge library of drum sounds that are all mine, and while it's not always perfect, it is a fantastic learning experience to do that yourself cause you learn what goes into making things sound a certain way. I'm by no means a professional. However, I feel that learning from pros and seeing the habits of the best is invaluable in becoming a more well rounded creator
Hey man, as a professional musician, at an intermediate level, I didn't understand all the terms u used, but I certainly knew what the jist of it was. You have a great way of explaining things which really resonates to me, therefore I subscribed and will get caught up in your other videos. i don't often comment or subscribe, but your content is worth it. Thanks for being so clear and unbiased about music, just the way the best people in the music biz have always come across to me. Nice pickin'.
An excellent video; what an underrated channel. You deserve more subs. On the last point you made, I would only reference the quote from The Perks of Being a Wallflower, which says, "We accept the love we think we deserve." It goes the same for money. The reason so many of us work for free, especially at the beginning, is that we let our artistic doubts and perfectionism enter our business side of the practice. It is absolutely crucial to strive for better and better work, never being completely satisfied with yourself, but that should be left aside once we turn into a salesman who needs to sell the product. These are two completely different modes of thinking that should normally be embodied by two different people. Many of us can't afford to have a personal agent, so we need to do both roles. Which is a bitch.
I know first hand that you dont need expensive music for good sound! My team loves my music, and im using free samples! It's all about just understanding *how* to use something
Although this video didn't get into it, I think the biggest tell of amateurishness is when the vocal kicks in - if the vocal doesn't sound smooth, that's a sonic buzzkill right out of the gate, but I guess this is a topic unto it's own 😊
Lots of great ideas in this video. Thank you. One day people on the internet will realise all the answers are correct. It is hilarious to argue there is a right and wrong way to be creative. Try them all, keep what works for you, your project and your personality. If the idea doesn't work, thank the person for the idea and move to the next. The reason for that is you build a network. Who wants to work with or recommend the person that trolls the internet?
I just discovered your channel due to your Hearth and Hollow reviews. Great teaching on this one. I'll be working my way through your past takes. Thank you!
Really insightful video, good advice, thank you for sharing. Something I see quite often in published scores and arrangements these days is a lack of phrasing, articulation, dynamics, expressions and use of some of the techniques that can be specific to certain instruments. These can instantly transform a piece of music by adding in feeling, punctuation, etc. and provide better direction to performers to interpret the music.
Interesting comment about Bon Iver and how it relates to my tennis playing. I've always been a decent tennis player, but I've always been overweight, so while my strokes were fantastic, I'd never do well in matches. After a skiing injury that took out my right shoulder for over 6 months, I taught myself to play left-handed. And while the strokes weren't near as good as my right hand, I found out that I had to compensate by doing better at positioning myself on the court, and anticipating shots--something being good at my "specialty" never allowed me to focus on. When I was fully rehabbed, I could add that new perspective to my game.
Very good suggestions that I wish I had learned early on. Managing the mid range is the toughest and took me quite awhile to learn because it seems everything lives there. Filtering out the frequencies that exist but are not necessary and listening in context instead of spending loads of time on each individual instrument helped me more than anything. Wish I would have had this to learn from back in the day! Enjoyed the video sir!
Compressing just the low mids (100 to 300hz) can take your mixes to the next level too. As well immediately limiting the peaks before doing anything else.
Some great information. Genre is a minefield, Spotify or Apple music may classify something as jazz, that jazz professionals would say is not.We had a track that trended with Norah Jones, who Spotify list under jazz, in the end we had some feedback from some pros that classed our track as "Folk Pop".
Another great topic and video Jon. You’ve got that “fireside chat”, homespun chat thing pretty much nailed. Your sincerity and down-to-earth experience approach is a breath of fresh air
Thank you for this video and breaking down the different aspects for free like this on UA-cam. A lot of what you are saying some people keep behind pay walls.. the practical knowledge to actually help someone improve if they consciously apply it.
Amen, brother! One of my best sounding mixes was one where I ran the Main Out through Stereo Reverb. Every performer in one space. For that recording, it sounded great. Thanks
As much as I hate to admit it, if someone expresses a desire to make money from music...I generally try to point them towards psychoacoustics, marketing and business studies. And of course music theory. Music for me is like cooking a meal for myself at the end of the day. Some people want to work at or run a restaurant tho.
Good info music is a journey,if you start to learn an instrument,it takes time to learn it and get good at playing it. Electronic music production is no different to me. You have to learn. Unless you get lucky it takes time to put out better and better music. One has to stay in the game to win.
music has always been there. i listen to every kind of music. idk what kind to make id make everything, at least id want to. idk where to start it feels very overwhelming
Hey man I am so glad something positive and informative came from that thread (I was following that thread real close for advice. Reckon Twitter is quick to dogpile on Christian right now but I'll keep it to Twitter. Would absolutely love to see a video on voice-leading into transitions. Thank you!
nice, I replied to this, my thoughts are pretty much what I said, we all know what good music is, both personally and collectively, looking at the history of music as a medium, what's done well with the audience, you can fall into writing music for other musicians to listen to, but I try and constantly remind myself its always about the audience and what they enjoy, sometimes things with the context of looking at it technically based on those ""unspoken standards""badly recorded and little budgets and not the best players resonate with the audience and become popular and do well, if you are starting out doing music, of course, you haven't had time to find what works and it's not going to sound "" industry standard pro sound "" until you have the time to work out how that's achieved but other people have made that journey and so can you. It's a lifetime commitment in many cases to quality and emotional resonance with large groups of people or just something you love doing and sharing, as long as you try, you are doing that, then it's just how well over time. I like your musical jams Jon, best with it all! :) Jeramiah
I think back to the Beatles early days where they worked with a 4 track and maybe a few bounces with basic instruments and yet the sound is legendary even today. I therefore challenge myself to try and get a track sounding just as great with only 4 or 8 tracks only. Not to oversimplify, but my golden rule is less is more.
I want to chime in on what the Spitfire guy said about using live players. Using live players doesn't always improve the track if you don't choose the right player. Case in point: I was working as a music producer in Germany at a local studio in Dusseldorf. We found this young artist from England whom we wanted to produce. It was just him and his acoustic guitar, and he would sing his original songs in front of you...and you'd be gone. Fantastic songs and talent. Anyway, we record him and decide to overdub his guitar playing with a pro session player as this young guy's playing was not perfect: hesitant, timid, and not all strings strummed at the same time. We thought we could improve on that. So we hired this famous german session guitarist that, apparently, had been playing session guitar on almost every hit on the radio. His techie came up a day earlier with a van to set up. In the van, over 100 guitars, some of them costing tens of thousands, many, many old famous amps, microphones (U78s, etc) and also his own matrix switching system so that he could dial a different sound from the control room. When he set-up his amps, he's measured the distance of the mic to the amp with a measuring tape. You get the picture yet?... So he starts playing. The songs were not difficult technically speaking, so he played them faultlessly, even when double-tracked or triple-tracked, it was perfect, utilising the perfect guitars, amps and microphones. Perfect. Yet, after he left (and got paid solidly), his tracks - we realised - were totally inadequate and soul-less, and un-usable. Why?...TOO perfect! Cut the story short, we went back and re-recorded our young artist, with his hesitant, shy, vulnerable playing style. It was magic. That's what the song needed: this vulnerability and innocence and "analog" imperfection, so much so that I even kept the creaking sound of the bar stool in his booth just before he started playing! Food analogy: it was like the crust of a fresh French baguette... Choose the right human player, because any player - just a player who's human - might not actually improve the song, that's my point.
Excellent point, and i think it plays to the last part Jon talks about as well, and the core of the comment. The "live" player is there to bring _realness and authenticity_ to the track. In your example the imperfection was what made the performance authentic. :)
Great point. In another situation it may have been the other way round and you may have needed a virtuoso. It's about what works.
Sounds like a Conor oberst or Elliot smith situation. I couldn’t imagine songs like First day of my life or Needle in the hay being some super slick perfect performances, they just wouldn’t even be the same songs if they were
could you please post a link to these fantastic songs, so we can hear for ourselves?
"over 100 guitars, some of them costing tens of thousands, many, many old famous amps, microphones (U78s, etc) and also his own matrix switching system" Hilarious. Trying too hard. We never use the "perfect" players at all. Soul death.
"Dude, suckin’ at something is the first step to being sorta good at something."
-Jake the Dog, Adventure Time
I think learning to copy is awesome. For me, that's how I got good at everything from bass to drum programming. I'd say, "how'd they get it like that?" And go deep into the rabbit holes until I could recreate it. Then you can put it together with other stuff. This is all such great advice and feels fantastic to hear
Exactly what I've been doing. How'd they get this and that element to work so well as a whole. Especially current chart pop music. Putting the track, or even better, the individual stems into my daw and trying to replicate the arrangement structure, where the drum rolls come in etc. I'm using some Oliver powertools 1, 2 & 3 one shots atm.
The hope is to get as close as I can to the sound and eventually be able to go my own way. I think alot of pro producers gained alot by learning this way too.
I'm not a pro, so I'm not quite so pressured, but I'm with you in enjoying this method of questioning, learning and putting into practice!
yeah, I agree. Learning by ear was a key beginning for my music. Feel free to listen to some on channel if interested, have a great day man.
And when you hear something that sounds great, how do you go about figuring out how they made that sound?
I still remember buying an album of a popular artist the day it came out (back in '98) and got a surprise ticket to a back lot concert the next day (behind the store). This was an artist who had sold millions of albums previously. Anyway, he didn't have his band with him so he played his own guitar, but then the song had a piano part and he literally slung the guitar behind his back with a short pause in the music and started playing piano. The song on the album was professionally recorded and mixed, but here he was playing two different instruments, like, "hold on, let me switch." it was great.
Just a standard musician switching between instruments but okay lol
ya gotta love the real ones, they just are clearly in their element and at the top of their game . often a life changing thing to witness . a performance of this genuine-ness level . We know from when we grew up that talent like this exists . it's possible that our culture is not as focused on music as it once was. I got to the point when I realized that playing my instrument is a cultural responsibility
As someone coming to this from the opposite end, a total hobbyist, having fun learning, these insights are great. Help me understand why different parts of what I record sound like different shades of dog snot.
also you find nuggets with mistakingly tweeking stuff, "how did you find or tweek that sounds?" exploration
specialy in masterising stuff pan and distance its endlessss
Yeah my problem was trying to put too many instruments at once then the timing off and sounds like he’ll cut out some tracks and it’s boring
Even with basic gear, you can create a helluva sonic landscape. Limitations breed creativity.
I strongly disagree with this kinda opinions as it's harmful for believing such a wrong believe that doesn't work
and I think it's a confusion and a limitation for people's mind who really want to do something beautiful
it's like some of the religion's lie that have other reasons(like fooling you) but puts you in limitation places as you can not fly with fly simulator programs
and originally I consider it's coming from vst investors (like famous engineers who have hands on making them) and EDM producers who make the worst sounding fl studio based songs and give it to real people with real gears to make them sound ok
@@miladbarikani3591 Basic gear could be considered singing in a chapel, boom you're creating a sound that reaches the heavens. Know you're coming from a different place with this but felt worth the detour.
yes, I agree. For my first album (instrumental cinematic-ambient genre fused with postrock / synth arp), I just had a strymon bluesky pedal and created some really huge and beautiful/otherworldly sonic soundscapes. Feel free to go listen on my channel if interested and sub if you like. Have a great day
@@miladbarikani3591 do you even produce music. this comment is dumb
This is why I love Crasher Crust. To all "SOUND GUYS" - F off! Brilliant summary of squeaky-clean production tightwads. Keep it real.
Thank you for pointing out that gradual growth gets you there. As a hobbyist, wearing all the hats can be daunting and you have to give yourself some grace in the process. There's a lot to learn about singing, songwriting, playing various instruments, arranging, tracking, mixing & mastering. Labels hire a seasoned professional to handle each of these tasks. Weekend warriors like myself will keep moving up that in-the-box production hill slowly but surely. 👍
Summaries
Muddy Mixes: This is a common issue where there's a build-up in the low mid frequencies (200Hz to 500Hz). This is often due to the choice of instruments and how they're mixed together. The speaker suggests thinking of mixes as an upside-down pyramid, with the low frequencies at the bottom and the high frequencies at the top.
Lack of Dynamics: Many new composers fail to effectively use dynamics in their music. This can be especially problematic when trying to recreate an orchestral performance or other complex soundscapes. Understanding how to manipulate the dynamics of an instrument can greatly improve the quality of a composition.
Unfinished Music: The speaker recommends always trying to make a track sound as polished as possible before sending it off. This includes spending time on mixing and mastering the track to the best of your ability.
Misunderstanding the Genre: It's important to thoroughly understand the genre you're working in. This includes researching the best music in that genre, learning about the recording techniques used, and understanding the mindset of the creators in that genre.
Lack of Originality: Many new composers struggle to find their own unique sound and instead end up sounding like other artists. The speaker suggests learning from multiple artists and combining what you like from each to create something uniquely yours.
Looping Sections: Overusing loops can make a track sound repetitive and uninteresting. It's important to make your music change and develop over time, even if it's an underscore track.
Hiring Live Musicians: The speaker discusses the benefits of hiring live musicians to add to the quality of the music. While it's possible to create professional-sounding music using only digital tools, live musicians can add a level of authenticity and depth to a track.
Reverb: The use of reverb was also discussed. The speaker suggests using the same reverb on all instruments to create a cohesive sound.
By ChatGPT 4 😅
😂
I think the hardest for me its the looping part
@@ej8736variation is the key. In the early 90’s my first composition teacher made me write a theme with variations for piano. I thought that the task was silly. Nobody composes that anymore. It took me several years to understand that I wasn’t learning “theme and variations”, I was learning composition!
Music is felt, not heard. Good players will always create a feeling that's unique and special.
Great talk, appreciate it.
The tweet was fine. As an amateur I am extremely interested in what can make me improve. Pinpointing to something concrete to improve is INVALUABLE to everyone that would like to further improve their skills and abilities. If you can't take criticism, you won't ever improve. It took me years to learn this, but now at 52 I am much better at separating my ego from my music and responses to it. I often disagree with feedback, but never sad or offended. I in part learnt this by being in studios with producers and engineers who didn't put up with any crap. To paraphrase what one of them said to me: "I don't care how you feel, we need to finish this song. And you need to play the part or we'll find someone who can."
We finished the song and I eventually learn my lesson; It's all about the song, and the performance. Not about YOU.
I missed the tweet as it happened myself, but I am not surprised it got the responses it did. Musicians and writers often have fragile egos and often struggle to separate their feeling from what they have crafted. I think it's some part of creativity and the fact that songs and performances live side by side in out head with our feelings. Most professionals know how to take feedback and criticism, and many non-professionals don't. I see this all the time, and I am a victim to it myself. Even now, there are time I have to swallow my pride, count to ten and get my shit together. It's all good. Having ones feeling hurt doesn't last. It I'll pass in a minute.
You made a great point about ego. I used to be very attached to my songs in my teens and 20s. Those songs were "me". I don't feel that now, maybe it's an age thing (I'm 47 btw) but my music is "what I do" not "who I am". I feel this detachment is beneficial when wanting to improve and learn because criticism is not a reflection of us or what we did but rather a look into what we can do.
Not sure if I made sense or just made this too philosophical. :)
That's not a music thing, that's a human thing. Regardless of your occupation, doing the job and not making it about your feelings is a crucial part of what it means to be/act professional. :)
@ghost mall very good point.
02:25 yeah, that are those „special talents“. And even those people have to learn how to use a DAW first to bring their creativity into a track! 🙈
In my opinion: „Fred Again“ is such an incredibly gifted person! Everything he puts his hand on in terms of music, he turns into gold! 😅👌🏼
Most producers do only one genre of music, but he does so many different and everything touches your soul in some kind!
He even finds small talented singers and make a banger with them which is extremely cool in my opinion!
Even if it’s normally not my type of music, i like it! That just tells how great he is! Incredibly talented person! Even his live shows are incredible! 😳
I think you did well with the whole payment issue! We have to accept that what we do is both very valuable, but also not... very valuable. As an illustrator/Graphical artist mainly, I have seen this discussion there as well. Fact is, no matter how good you are, you are only as valuable, monetarily meaning, as the product you take part in is worth, monetarily. That is just how it is. And if both of you don't gain much in terms of money by working together, other than maybe the chance of getting experience or exposure, then demanding a lot of money for your efforts is just not the way. The whole "All I can offer is a chance of exposure" (And a sandwich) IS a valid one. It just is. Unless, obviously, the guy you work for is using you to actually get paid himself. I have an illustrator friend who tried to demand money for work on a children's book, when the fact was the book was not going to make any money at all. And he was all "We don't expect the plumber to work for exposure, do we?!??". No... we don't. But... you are not a plumber. What you do has very little practical, measurable worth, until there is an audience ready to pay you. Deal with it.
i only play unprepared live improvs daily on live stream - this not just a great creative outlet but also tremendously helped to fight perfectionism - most thing wont be perfect in this situation but we just have to keep going & build on that.
great video, great insights / tips
Glad it helped!
For me definitily playing mistakes are the worst. Bad tone quality is one thing, but the first things my friends always noticed when I started making music were timing issues or other mistakes. The most important thing I learnt was not to be lazy, practice my stuff, do as many takes as needed and edit every thing that is bothering me.
Isn't it amazing that you have to " learn" your own song? I struggle with that, mistakes and timing issues as well. Keep on keeping on.
Ugh same. I used to be incredibly lazy when it came to good takes. I'd spend more time trying to fix it digitally than it would have taken to just practice and re-record the part. In my experience, I can hear every shortcut I'd take, so it's best to hunker down and get it right.
melodyne :P
this was really informative, thank you.
for my fellow hobbyists: don't try to cram all those cool new musical concepts you learned about and all those sick ideas you had in a single track. Keeping things clear and focused is really important. At least thats what I've learned from my experience. Oh, also make "breathing pauses" in your melodies even whe making instrumental music (you don't always have to, but it's generally better this way).
I think a lot of the comments were probably based on one’s own insecurities and obstacles they’ve overcome (including mine). We are hyper aware of our weaknesses as artists and it’s easy to spot those in others.
What I like about this video is your ability to discuss the journey of the artist and how being “amateur” at something is actually a strength because it creates space for learning moments. Continually showing up and working hard at whatever one feels needs attention in their craft is perhaps one of the most important aspects of being creative today.
I think there's a divide between a hobbyist musician/composer that dreams of fame or at least a following verses composers who want to earn a living being somewhat anonymous. Maybe the term "working composer" would be a great distinction.
agree
With it being on twitter, there's also probably a majority that have never learned a piece of music on an instrument but are incredibly judgy based on something they heard on a podcast once that they think makes them sound smart.
Right on, Jon. I gave this video two "Amens" and and "Atta boy!" out loud while watching.
If the question had been “What things do you think make a track sound more professional?” then I think there may have been less controversy in the answers. There was lots of great advice to up your game but might have come across critical labelling people as “amateur” (which tends to be used in a derogatory context).
Yea, that would have been a better way to phrase the question. Lesson learned, but glad the tweet was seen by so many, which led to some excellent advice.
@@JonMeyer nothing like a bit of controversy to get people talking!
@@StephenTallamyMusic 🤣
In the industry pros don’t talk like amateurs so it’s common that we say stuff like…that sounds like shit.
It’s not a big deal because we know the industry. It’s not for everybody. Actually, to expound on that…the industry like aggressive people.
Ear fatigue can be the enemy as well, what sounded great yesterday might not sound great tomorrow. Monitors, workspace, choice of Daw weapons, etc. are all contributing factors.
This is the best defense of a question, and a great distillation of philosophies. “Tension” is a great word.
Thanks for spending the time to help us all out.
Your chill vibe but wealth of knowledge is rare. THANK YOU.
That was food for creative application. Thank you, thank you, and thank you.
WAIT WAS THAT ME IN THIS VIDEO?! This was an amazing video, Jon! You put a lot of good time and thought into this topic, and I'm super glad you put this out. have a good one!
If you can make one idea last 3mins in a 3-act structure, you are on your way to making a living writing production music. Adding just one live player will elevate that music.
New subscriber here and novice musician. I mostly record for use in my UA-cam videos but I'm always striving to get better. Who knows, maybe someday other people will want to use my music in their videos. Either way every time you sit down to record you have the opportunity to create something amazing.
Jon, your videos are not only extremely informative but SO well made and a pure joy to watch! That’s why I always prefer your vids over others. Thank you so much for your efforts! Best, Andy
I appreciate the camera angles you chose, your videos are always composed so well.
And thank you for all of the tips!
A good example is, Paul McCartney. After 60 years of Beatles legend and, Paul still being alive, many people think of him as a born genius. Popped out of mom crying in melody. I have performed as P and have been a fan since the day they performed on Ed Sullivan. I have listened to every Hamburg Germany performance's, Cavern, Star Club bar gigs and Beatles (including Paul's) demos of great hits there are known to the world. Paul's original performances of I Saw Her Standing There, prior to George Martin's encouragement, suggestions and production was a very basic to boring sounding blues song. What happened to, with or for Paul was, he listened to his master. He learned. Even when we can assume him soaking in his most youthful arrogance, he obviously used the suggestions from Sir G. Martin. So between 22 and 27, many moments of genius began to materialize. After that, year after year, this began to happen more & more often and many times, the new moment better than the previous moment. Had Paul not met George Martin, he would have been a fine guitarist/piano player somewhere singing on weekends for someone but, subtract the competition with John Lennon, a job working in the studio requiring him to create and his maturity to listen to his master, in his twenties he became one of the best to ever write a song. If not the best.
What makes a mix sound amateur? Usually timing. Practice Practice Practice. You get what you put it and mixing is the icing on the cake.
As a part time mixer. I get it, wondering if the track is “finished” cause the blowback from “critics” can be brutal. But I like the attitude of not everything is gonna be a masterpiece and it’s better to make something and have it be sub par than not put it out at all. And a lot of people are very insecure. Had a coworker share a track he made and I told him “it’s a start”. I didn’t hate on it but he devastated himself when I was being fair. He didn’t like me the rest of the time we worked together and really tortured himself over his first product. Not over pressuring but always looking to iron out one detail at a time is how to be good at anything.
Damn I felt this one,
I try to listen to my mixes on as many different places as possible. Including on car stereo and even on my phone.
I made an 16track album on my FL studio mobile... The quality is bad but I couldn't afford being in a studio at the time... So I just used what I had: mediocre headphones and phone mic that's it!
But yeah I don't need a studio with a bunch of stuff, do I suffer in quality? Yes! But I use it to my advantage, I try to make it my own identity and originality ...
And I each time I make a song I learn from my previous mistakes and I improve always... Always !!!
Use your disadvantages as your advantages!
The song will always be king regardless of production.
I totally agree.
I think people focus way too much on production issues nowadays compared to songwriting skills. Of course the best thing is to hear great songs that are also produced well. But I really don't understand people who can't enjoy a great song just because some bass frequency is a little bit too "low" or "muddy" for them or there's "too much reverb" etc. Have these people totally forgotten what music is suppose to be about? Great songwriting with something interesting to say.
Someone complained once that Dog man star by Suede was "trash" because of "too much reverb". I had never even focused on the reverb as an "issue" while listening to it. To me it was just part of the sound. What I focused on was the great album they created with still most of my favorite Suede songs on it.
@@dach3405 Dogman Star is a classic. People have been dumbed down by corporate produced music so they expect production to follow a fixed set of rules, it's incredibly boring.
I saw that tweet and didn't reply to it because the discussion was going downhill. I have decades of experience in writing multiple genres of music but I'm and will be an amateur writer/composer. I don't have the ambition to be professional, I do what I love for the sake of loving to do it. If I wanted to be professional there would be an extra layer I would need to add in the form of time, learning and commitment. I feel it is important that people that want to be professional understand that extra layer exist and that they cannot just assume that because they can put something to work on a DAW and want to make a living they are automatically professional. Ignoring that extra is what leads to sounding amateurish. It's wishful thinking that, when confronted, feels like a personal attack.
On the other hand, amateur or not, I want my music to be the best I can write and produce, so instead of feeling attacked, I thank the professionals that share their insights. I can't do anything about some of those insights, but there are others that I go "oh that's actually a good point" and try to incorporate it in my knowledge and workflow. As far as I'm concerned I appreciate the feedback, ideas, insights and I am grateful that professional composers actually share this knowledge instead of gatekeeping it.
A good mix starts with a good arrangement.
not with a good recording/sample selection?
@@Dave1507 you can have a great recording of great samples that don’t fit together
@@MuzixMaker but you do have something to arrange and mix. if you don't have any samples or recordings first, there's nothing to arrange and mix.
There are literally no people born with these skills. Even if you have composition talent, technique is technique and it takes years to develop.
Nah, I was born with my ears fully trained, a prodigy on all instruments, and I could even sing opera. sadly I lost all that when I started making music.
There's gold in this video for all musicians and producers
Another great video Jon. I’m currently tackling the whole EQ Muddy v Thin mixes. It’s reassuring for me to know I’m doing some things right. The more I write the slightly easier it gets.
I like how this is more about the overall production before the mix. Whatever you know that will help me learn to produce listener friendly music, that's what I want to know.
The editing and presentation of this video is perfect, well done.
Thank you very much!
I agree that the quality of music depends largely on the performance of the musicians (depends on genre). Good musicians can connect different spaces. Additionally, the mixing style and the producer's understanding of the song idea are also tremendously important.
As an amateur composer this was so interesting to watch. Tying to achieve a balanced sound is one of the things I find most difficult and your pyramid trick just made so much sense when you mentioned it- will definitely keep it in mind moving forward! Thank you for sharing your insights ❤
There is this record called “talking Book” by Stevie Wonder. I love listening to that album because he uses so many instruments that might clash but somehow it works in the mix, for a lot of different reasons, but it’s just a marvel to study the mix on that record.
Stevie Wonder is genuinely _top 3 all time_ for me ❤
Great points! How violins can make the sound “feel real” is touching on the reality of real versus counterfeit. It’s safer for humanity to always choose the real living over the dead machine/AI. The performance and spirit of the song will always prevail over the perceived benefits of maximizing the sonic landscape with tech. I’d rather my songs sound like cassette demos with a live band than to sound like modern radio but counterfeit. We are in a spiritual war of sorts.
Oh, and I love hiring live musicians! You should check out the Pretty Lights documentary. I think you'd be all about it.
I saw that tweet and was going to respond, but the replies were heading south quickly.
Love that upside pyramid reference! I say the exact same thing.
as a Video game music composer, i am content with my abilities. my clients are pleased, and if not quite, it's fixable and they can tell easily what's wrong.
having experienced imposter syndrome often, i can tell you that each Person has a style and strength for a certain Sound. my thing is 8 bit chiptune and anything above is still something i need to learn.
i know that every song and art piece has its place Here and it will Most likely be pleasing someone Out there.
good luck, all!
I’ve been diving into chip tune quite a bit lately, mainly with 16 bit FM. Fun stuff!
@@AlmostCosmic288 FM Synth is really nice!
I think you make a good point at 4:05 "because the instruments I chose work together, not because I did something magic with the EQ". Unfortunately then you immediately go into that EQ'ing issue. This video is for composers. Meaning: they can tinker with the notes. A transparent comes from instrumentation (yes, you use that word briefly) and arrangement. Eq'ing and anything software should be fine tuning.
DYNAMICS IS KEY! I get the most reaction from a dynamic shift more than anything. Loud > quiet, quiet > loud, tempo change, throw in an alternate version of the riff... First time I realized this I was jamming with my brother me on guitar him on drums, and I was just playing a riff over n over and he was doing his thing, then at one point he switched gears and initiated a "build up" on the toms, increasing in intensity building up to that quick split second silence before coming back hard with the beat at a "half-speed" to make it heavy like an object that weighs many pounds. Anyways we had a buddy there watching and he was so stoked, he's like "holy shit, that was unreal!" Told him I was literally just repeating the same riff LOL. Doesn't matter apparently, the variation and contrast is what stands out!
I myself am a home studio nobody, my biggest issue is everything will sound great in the DAW but the mix always sounds vastly different on different mediums. Car stereo the mix sounds awful, one pair of headphones sounds amazing, a different brand headphones the mix sounds awful. It’s always blown my mind that a professional recording somehow sounds great on all mediums but my home recordings mixes can sound so vastly different from on to the other. I never know which source to trust, so I don’t trust any of them and just assume my mixes are garbage.
There are daw tools called "Spectrum Analyzers". And that gives one a visual representation(in real time) of what the sound waves look like, either as a whole or per channel.
There are many courses available, both for free and pay, in regards to how one may try to be an audio engineer in addition to being a composer.
May need a good flat-response source of audio. Commercial speakers color the sound, also consider listening to some of your favorite songs on that system. Listen very carefully to things you know sound bad, for example the guitar.
It helps to get your hands on multi tracks I suppose, but in my case I use Rick Beato's "What makes this song great series". I focus on what I like. But listen to it on the same speakers you mix with. Then on something else where it fail.
Make sure to compare something you already know works on these different sound systems.
Additionally know this, there are limits to lower frequencies. The first is the speakers, can they reproduce that low range reliably (not coloring it )?
And if you go lower... Then your room, is it setup to make reproducing that well enough?
To be completely honest, I use a pair of semi flat response headphones (cheap PreSonus) with a plugin that tries to flatten that signal then use something else to fill in the bass frequency. Finally, since I don't particularly like low end, I tend to keep it low and centered. It's a poor man's way out, heck it may be bad advice ...
But the point I'm making is, look for low hanging fruit so you are not overwhelmed. Cutting off some of the lower end can help (below 60Hz, and really by cutting I mean ducking... Don't let it go to high).
Also you can use side chain for that. What I mean is make the amount allowed on your bass depend on your kick drum. Then make the amount allowed on your guitar depend on both the kick and bass.
Not to mention, avoid overlapping low end instruments.
Finally check your frequency spectrum. Carving out spaces can help a ton, just lower some DB in a certain frequency on one instrument and other frequency in the clashing instrument and you're cool.
Generally try and thing well this instrument gets such and such range, this instrument this other...
Good luck on your mixes hope this helps
Your problem is, that you produce your music with bad speakers/headphones! You need headphones and speakers with a good neutral frequency response! If your Headphones extremely Boosts your Highs and Mids for example, but lacks in Bass and you optimise the track so that it sounds good on this headphones, then it will sound Muddy and awful on good speakers because the track lacks extremely in mids and highs then and only has lots of bass!
So there are two things that you must do! First of all, buy studio headphones and speakers, or simply use good neutral sounding speakers and secondly, you have to put lots of work in your mixing and mastering!
Mixing and mastering could change your song Completely! It could make a banger out of an average sounding track or it could make a perfect song sounding like trash! 😬✌🏼
That tweet really showed the highs and lows of the Internet. How you reflected on Christian's response was pretty spot on; a lot of people seemed to miss the point he was the owner of a huge sample company suggesting you use live players.
Asking friends for musical favours you can return is how most people start out.
On reflection, it's badly mixed stuff that gives away a lack of professionalism most to me.
Thanks, Jim. A poorly mixed track can often disguise a greater song and composer. Trying to learn to listen through the mix.
I will leave the detail topics to others as I am learning... I will say your set and editing is very good, your use of warm lighting vs. blue LEDs strips, is like watching honey baked video 🍯
The upside-down pyramid way of looking at a mix is super handy and eye opening. I've watched a lot of videos about how to mix, and this is the first time I've seen something like that. Thank you!
The pyramid of mixing is such a great visual analogy! Great video and advice!
Glad you think so!
This Video stands out from those millions of other which simply say nothing. This video has real content, thoughts and lead.
I had horrible mixes at my home studio when i first started. Didn't have the internet like we do today so i interned at a music studio that had an analog room and a digital room. I learned in the analog room and you could literally get a different mix each pass. But learning the long form mixing helped my digital mixes tremendously! Many of the tips here I learned the hard way.. nobody was feeling my music. Then my issue was too much polish and my mixes weren't gritty enough lol.
For me personally the hump to get over was mastering. Meaning leaving enough head room on my tracks. Also, battling the built-in EQ in my headphones which made everything sound deceivingly good... then when I would listen my stuff on other systems it would lack everything and it was poorly mixed. Izotope Arc 3 helps with this issue. Also, as you mention dynamics, bringing certain instruments forward during certain moments, etc...
The best advice I had was 'listen to your favourite songs in your mixing position'.
I sat down at my desk, cracked a beer (or 10!), and just spent the night listening to all of the music I'd been listening to my whole life and knew inside out.
That improved my mixes more than anything else.
@@Dave-Rough-Diamond-Dunn are you saying you used what you gathered from your favorite music to inform how you should mix yours? just curious. I need mixing tips lol
@@loftyjones675 Sorry mate, I started a reply, but I was out and had to 'discard' because I needed to be in the moment, or it'd be rude. I still think it's just as rude to interrupt a real time conversation with someone online, but you can't be staring at your phone when you're out and sitting at a table with 5 other people.
I think on UA-cam, it's no biggie, people don't really expect an immediate response anyway.
So yeah, you'd be familiar with the idea of having a reference track for a particular song. You find a song with the same vibe, and the sound you're going for, and add it as a track in your DAW. As you mix, but usually, towards the end, you see how it stacks up against your song, so you can adjust things to make your song sound more professional. That usually comes in to play once your song is 99% mixed, getting it ready for mastering, or actually mastering.
What I was talking about though, has a little bit of a wider scope, it's more about getting to know your listening environment.
So spend the time to relax, and listen to all of your favourite music, so you can get a good grip on what your speakers are actually delivering.
I listened to all of my favourite songs, from many different decades and genres, Carl Perkins, Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent, Deep Purple and Black Sabbath, Status Quo and Slade, Adam and the Ants, Wasp and Motley Crue, Beastie Boys, Eminem and Nelly, Taylor and Miley, Bruno Mars, and Motorhead and FKN Slayer! So many more, I'd be here all night listing them!
But after that (I'm still doing it), I had so more understanding about what my speakers were delivering.
As a particular example, I'd never thought 'hey, with Status Quo, you can really hear the bass, and the guitars sound heavy and distorted, but really, all the guts is coming from the bass'.
Just an example, but I now know how much bass I should be hearing, and I was putting way less bass than any of the songs I listened to.
Dua Lipa, Taylor, and Brittany songs gave me the same sort of reference points too.
I was listening to music everywhere, except sitting in front of the computer where I record and mix my own music.
Sitting in your mixing position, relaxing, and listening to music you've heard 10,000 times, is the most helpful advice I've ever had. 🙂👍
@@Dave-Rough-Diamond-Dunn that's beautiful advice! thank you so much man. yeah don't sweat it at all, life comes first (: I never expect a response when I leave a youtube comment, so getting one at all is nice.
The solution to your problem is getting your room treated with Rockwool sound panels on every wall and ceiling then calibrating your headphones and speakers with SoundID Reference.
You'll then have trust worthy consistent mixes across all systems.
All the new camera angles! It's been a real joy watching your channel get more "pro." The lessons you describe here for music apply in this world too... and you keep getting better and better. Great work, my friend.
That "leading the listener to the next section" bit... that's the one IMHO, in terms of the underscore world in particular. 100%
I just noticed the twitter bird in your thumbnail 🤣
Thanks, Dan! You always pick up on my points of emphasis for each video. New angles feels like a new studio!
@@JonMeyer I have been watching... closely... intently. Imminent? 🤔
I would add the slight caveat that sometimes composers mock up pieces with string or drum plugins and don’t spend a ton of time making them sound realistic because the person they play it for knows it’s meant to be re-recorded with real instruments. So I’d separate demos / mock-ups from music that’s presented as final
Yes, I guess it depend on the workflow. I like giving the general idea of what I am looking with what we have already to a real pro, sometimes they come up with something even better than if I'd given them the notes to play.
you still want to make it sound as polished as possible. i’m sure you know and understand this, but spending a few hours mixing a demo can make or break it. a well mixed demo will be picked over a poorly mixed one in many cases
For me, I feel like trying to be minimalist has in some ways helped and in other ways hurt my music making. Like, I think one of the best things I ever did for myself was making all my own drum samples by sampling from old records and vinyl rips. I still have all the samples I made from sophomore year in high school, and I can tell where I got things right and where my ears were still learning. The thing is, now I have a huge library of drum sounds that are all mine, and while it's not always perfect, it is a fantastic learning experience to do that yourself cause you learn what goes into making things sound a certain way.
I'm by no means a professional. However, I feel that learning from pros and seeing the habits of the best is invaluable in becoming a more well rounded creator
Hey man, as a professional musician, at an intermediate level, I didn't understand all the terms u used, but I certainly knew what the jist of it was. You have a great way of explaining things which really resonates to me, therefore I subscribed and will get caught up in your other videos. i don't often comment or subscribe, but your content is worth it. Thanks for being so clear and unbiased about music, just the way the best people in the music biz have always come across to me. Nice pickin'.
An excellent video; what an underrated channel. You deserve more subs. On the last point you made, I would only reference the quote from The Perks of Being a Wallflower, which says, "We accept the love we think we deserve." It goes the same for money. The reason so many of us work for free, especially at the beginning, is that we let our artistic doubts and perfectionism enter our business side of the practice. It is absolutely crucial to strive for better and better work, never being completely satisfied with yourself, but that should be left aside once we turn into a salesman who needs to sell the product. These are two completely different modes of thinking that should normally be embodied by two different people. Many of us can't afford to have a personal agent, so we need to do both roles. Which is a bitch.
I know first hand that you dont need expensive music for good sound! My team loves my music, and im using free samples! It's all about just understanding *how* to use something
Although this video didn't get into it, I think the biggest tell of amateurishness is when the vocal kicks in - if the vocal doesn't sound smooth, that's a sonic buzzkill right out of the gate, but I guess this is a topic unto it's own 😊
Lots of great ideas in this video. Thank you. One day people on the internet will realise all the answers are correct. It is hilarious to argue there is a right and wrong way to be creative. Try them all, keep what works for you, your project and your personality. If the idea doesn't work, thank the person for the idea and move to the next. The reason for that is you build a network. Who wants to work with or recommend the person that trolls the internet?
UA-cam heard me playing your cd that I bought off you in 2011 on Magnolia street, in Ft. Worth.
Nice to see you again, Jon.
I just discovered your channel due to your Hearth and Hollow reviews. Great teaching on this one. I'll be working my way through your past takes. Thank you!
I’ve recently learned to send all instruments to a reverb aux and it helps the computer run smoother and cooler. Less processing
This deserves a double, no triple, no a million likes!!!! Thank You!!!!!
Thank you!
Really insightful video, good advice, thank you for sharing. Something I see quite often in published scores and arrangements these days is a lack of phrasing, articulation, dynamics, expressions and use of some of the techniques that can be specific to certain instruments. These can instantly transform a piece of music by adding in feeling, punctuation, etc. and provide better direction to performers to interpret the music.
I like the upside down triangle concept. Thank for that, and thanks for caring.
Awesome tips! I’m totally amateur and a hobby player but this is great at making even my amateur recordings sound better! Real food for thought.
Glad it was helpful!
Interesting comment about Bon Iver and how it relates to my tennis playing. I've always been a decent tennis player, but I've always been overweight, so while my strokes were fantastic, I'd never do well in matches. After a skiing injury that took out my right shoulder for over 6 months, I taught myself to play left-handed. And while the strokes weren't near as good as my right hand, I found out that I had to compensate by doing better at positioning myself on the court, and anticipating shots--something being good at my "specialty" never allowed me to focus on. When I was fully rehabbed, I could add that new perspective to my game.
First time watcher. That was amazing. Definitely subscribed for more.
Very good suggestions that I wish I had learned early on. Managing the mid range is the toughest and took me quite awhile to learn because it seems everything lives there. Filtering out the frequencies that exist but are not necessary and listening in context instead of spending loads of time on each individual instrument helped me more than anything. Wish I would have had this to learn from back in the day! Enjoyed the video sir!
Compressing just the low mids (100 to 300hz) can take your mixes to the next level too. As well immediately limiting the peaks before doing anything else.
Some great information. Genre is a minefield, Spotify or Apple music may classify something as jazz, that jazz professionals would say is not.We had a track that trended with Norah Jones, who Spotify list under jazz, in the end we had some feedback from some pros that classed our track as "Folk Pop".
I'm glad the algorithm has blessed me with your channel today. I already feel it's going to be a tremendous source of information ❤
Wow, thank you!
Rarely do I comment on videos, but this was a fantastically informative little discussion. Gained a new subscriber, good work
Another great topic and video Jon. You’ve got that “fireside chat”, homespun chat thing pretty much nailed. Your sincerity and down-to-earth experience approach is a breath of fresh air
I've always l had the same picture of an upside down pyramid too. I was so excited when you said that
Thank you for sharing your years of experience with us.
Wow pretty much everything about this video is fire. High high quality thank you so much!!
Appreciate it!
Thank you for this video and breaking down the different aspects for free like this on UA-cam. A lot of what you are saying some people keep behind pay walls.. the practical knowledge to actually help someone improve if they consciously apply it.
Damn. Great point: find a handful (or less!) instruments that work well together…then pepper in fx. Seems so obvious, but….
Tremendous information, Jon! Thank you for wrangling all those comments into some powerful and productive content.
Yes it does. Thanks for asking.
Amen, brother! One of my best sounding mixes was one where I ran the Main Out through Stereo Reverb. Every performer in one space. For that recording, it sounded great. Thanks
As much as I hate to admit it, if someone expresses a desire to make money from music...I generally try to point them towards psychoacoustics, marketing and business studies. And of course music theory.
Music for me is like cooking a meal for myself at the end of the day. Some people want to work at or run a restaurant tho.
Good info music is a journey,if you start to learn an instrument,it takes time to learn it and get good at playing it. Electronic music production is no different to me. You have to learn. Unless you get lucky it takes time to put out better and better music. One has to stay in the game to win.
this is pretty solid advice for every level of making music
music has always been there. i listen to every kind of music. idk what kind to make id make everything, at least id want to. idk where to start it feels very overwhelming
great advice, and a thoughtful and beautifully shot video!! 👏🏻
Hey man I am so glad something positive and informative came from that thread (I was following that thread real close for advice. Reckon Twitter is quick to dogpile on Christian right now but I'll keep it to Twitter. Would absolutely love to see a video on voice-leading into transitions. Thank you!
transition video will happen soon
This video was my introduction to your content and your channel. Good stuff, I subscribed!
props for putting amatuerish music to this video as an example
Sound selection comes first over everything
Many artists have wonderful creativity. Few have that plus business acumen: Alan Menken, Max Martin are good examples.
nice, I replied to this, my thoughts are pretty much what I said, we all know what good music is, both personally and collectively, looking at the history of music as a medium, what's done well with the audience, you can fall into writing music for other musicians to listen to, but I try and constantly remind myself its always about the audience and what they enjoy, sometimes things with the context of looking at it technically based on those ""unspoken standards""badly recorded and little budgets and not the best players resonate with the audience and become popular and do well, if you are starting out doing music, of course, you haven't had time to find what works and it's not going to sound "" industry standard pro sound "" until you have the time to work out how that's achieved but other people have made that journey and so can you. It's a lifetime commitment in many cases to quality and emotional resonance with large groups of people or just something you love doing and sharing, as long as you try, you are doing that, then it's just how well over time. I like your musical jams Jon, best with it all! :) Jeramiah
I think back to the Beatles early days where they worked with a 4 track and maybe a few bounces with basic instruments and yet the sound is legendary even today. I therefore challenge myself to try and get a track sounding just as great with only 4 or 8 tracks only. Not to oversimplify, but my golden rule is less is more.
Your vibe, production quality, and content is inspiring and superb. Quickest subscribe I’ve ever hit. Keep it coming.