It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to get past the hardest levels of the Simulated Universe without a shield since no matter how good your healer is it is useless if the enemy kills your characters in 1-2 hits. I predict that in the future they will start: - Making healers capable of converting overheal into Max Health or Damage Reduction - Making enemies capable of going through or nullifying shields to motivate the use of healers. Also about why we dont have more Preservation Characters, i think they kinda peaked to soon with Fu Xuan and Aventurine since they are just TO GOOD and they are afraid of powercreeeping them and break the game
the thing is, there are enough blessings/curios/equations/etc in SU and DU to where those shields don't have to come from your characters, and the enemies hit hard enough that even full def aventurine players will still need to pick up blessings that buff shields to not get 1-2 shot. SU/DU just isn't balanced around base characters, you're not killing a boss with 1280% extra HP before it kills you with any dps if you don't pick up the right blessings
@@theseventhsheep9724Even if you are loaded with Blessings of Abundance this won't prevent your team from being One-Shotted by the final boss while with Preservation at the end of the run you are practically immortal. Even taking Blessings and Curios into consideration doesn't change the fact that Shields are superior 9 times out of 10 since at the end of the day preventing damage will always be superior.
@@Truck-kun11 i'm talking about getting preservation blessings that give you shields even if you run a healer. there also are blessings that increase your max hp, and those still can be enough to prevent a one-shot, while your healer + the resonance heal you up i agree that shields are generally better, my point was just that you don't need characters to give you them, so long as you play SU correct. the stats are so inflated in SU that at the higher levels especially, you need to squeeze out every bit of dmg and sustain possible
@@theseventhsheep9724I agree, but my point is not that you need characters that give shilds, but that you need shilds in general. Not using shilds is not a option since healing alone is just not enought and that is a problem since they should be balanced.
@@Truck-kun11 my point on needing to bring characters or not came from how i think abundance and preservation units themselves are balanced, rather than raw shields vs healing. of course, when enemies get as strong as they do in SU, one-shotting becomes an issue, and so shields will inevitably be stronger. even if shields in this game acted as a "will save you fully from the dmg of x number of hits" rather than HP overflow, that issue would still exist. for that reason, i think it's more worth to compare the sustain units themselves, and in that regard abundance and preservation still feel very balanced to me, since even if your shielder can save you from one hit, unless you stack blessings on them, your team will still take some damage every time and be killed off.
the moment we get a healer that overcaps your max hp and acumulates the amount of healing you get so u deal more damage, that day, me and all the Bladie mains will finally be happy
Fr I have a 80smt crit rate 170-250 crit damage blade (depending on my team comp) but because nothing really buffs his hp he can’t get to crazy numbers from harmony units
This could easily make Shielders obsolete 😂 Why get a 2k shield when you gan just get 2k more hp and heals on top of it so your EHP is always 5k instead of slowly dropping to only 2k. Abundance would overthrow Preservation in High Conundrum.
@@PMDG07 there’s no content that only shielders can clear exclusively If you’re going to bring up divergent universe then the shields you get from the equations are what keeps you alive and they can be acccesed by healers too not the 3000 hp shield from your own preservation character base kit
@@sev559 maybe it was an exaggeration seeing as how their is no content that specifically requires shielders yet but the point still stands. In things like MOC where enemies hit extremely hard it’s much harder to use a healer because you now need to build your supports to be more tanky, some enemies like that Penacony gorilla punish you for not shielding. Even enemies that make you want to cleanse like SAM isn’t a problem with big enough shield. Even in some other game modes, without enough defensive setup enemies like the True sting will just wipe out a party before heals can come.
@@PMDG07 maybe on lesser built accounts but as someone with 80/80 characters and standard e0 builds I pretty much use luocha and gallagher for MoC almost all the time and it’s rare to get someone killed. I understand that less built accounts will need the extra safety of preservation but when assessing classes as a whole it’s fair to do it from an endgame perspective. In which case the issue of survivability is none existent
I think the problem is that specifically Adventurine and Fu Xuan are insanely good, not so much shields. Gepard, March 7th, and Fire Trailblazer can all give shields but for the energy/skill points cost its not worth it in most cases. The whole Preservation Path was pretty useless until those 2 came around. Shields arent that good in Star Rail, but Adventurine's shields are really good.
the main reason Gepard, March 7th, and Fire Trailblazer shields also arent that good is because by default shields do not stack, if they changed that they might shine some more
The issue is that the two Preservation characters, being Aventurine and Fu Xuan, provides something in utility other than making your characters survivable. It's either: 1. Shields that stack with talent with an innate 50% effect res 2. Skill from FX that basically relocates most of the damage to FX, along with one time CC and free 12% crit rate, and that it lasts as long as FX turns go. Which Gepard could barely provide much for the team, which is shields but that's it. Yes, you have taunt increase on him in base. But that doesn't change how good Aventurine is compared to him, or how flexible is FX compared to her.
@@flaria185 Alright, Aventurine is obviously the best sustain in the game at the moment. But to say "Fu xuan barely does anything" is straight up absurd. She still excels at sustaining and I can clear all endgames without any worries. If anything, abundance units are arguably behind her in terms of keeping the team alive.
Hoyo will most likely just make a 5* overheal abundance that will heal a lot and compensate for lost health from overheal provided (basically working like a shield) and not look at the problem any further
I actually think it’d be cooler if that was a Harmony character. You can over heal into higher max hp, and the higher your max hp is, the higher the buff from the harmony character. Would be a really cool blade support
Using Lingshua in the Wardance makes it seem that she is able to heal pretty frequently but even still I got nervous a couple times and even lost someone on one fight
@@adamnguyen966 And they're all broken in their own way. We don't need more power given to harmony when nihility and abundance are both struggling already.
I'm actually quite surprised they still didn't do an direct counter to Shields Like a shield breaker or an enemy that ignores them for the most part (An enemy that focuses on one ally per once like you'd do it with a Hunt character would also work to counter Aventurine since he relies on AoE damage) There's already some enemies that counter Abundance characters, so no reason to not add enemies that directly counter shields
Well Aventurine just came out a few patches ago, before him the only other 5* Shielder was Gepard, who has a few weaknesses and can struggle with Shield uptime, the problem is that Aven shields are so easy to refresh that most of the time they end up being permanent with no real downside. I'm sure that they will introduce enemies that counter shields and characters that have better synergy with healers in the future.
True, we have good 4* sustains as back up. Lynx and Gallagher are both really good. Being forced to drop my Aventurine would be interesting. Maybe when they add a 4* FUA Abundance is a good time they make shield breakers.
I'm day one gepard user and still going. I never realize how broken aventurine till I count the sp uses. He's basically can refresh every turn while gepard with need to spend 2 sp to make sure he gets perfect uptime
Gepard is known for his clunky shield uptime. The reason why the release of sustain like luocha on earlier days makes gepard more undesirable. Fu xuan release basically put gepard on bench..🥹. Apart from the simulated universe he just got out performance by other sustainers. Still he still got slot in SU. And may be better than adventurine with how gud erudition blessings that grab. Uptime is not a prob
@@SyrFlora yup, if i used him in moc i either bring sparkle or just pray that he became the punching bag. I would rather see his hp became zero because he can get back up again and instant ult
@@BMesa1 genuinely gonna take a crack at this so I got 2 guesses: Boothill-HMC-Ruan Mei-Gallagher. Or Feixiao- March 7th-Robin-Gallagher. I'm probably wrong tho lol
For months now I've been thinking how cool it'd be to have a preservation with a somewhat weak, but stackable, single target shield on their ult, but make the ult super cheap (like 60 energy), and allow them to hold like 3 or 4 charges. I think a preservation thats reactive rather than passive in their sustain role and giving you the moment to moment choice of how and where to distribute your shielding would be pretty fun.
Honestly the biggest issue with healers vs Shielders is the tuant value. Not only do shields give as much sustain as healing but just having Gepard or Adventurine in the fight already lowers the chance of your weak squishies to get targeted. Meanwhile Loucha and Lynx doesn't stop enemies focusing on your Tingyum and bursting her down every other attempt.
Heartily agreed. Having a "tank" is only as useful as that tank's ability to mitigate damage for the team. Personal durability is great, but without a taunt mechanic (of some sort), they just wind up the last unit standing, incapable of finishing the fight. Edited to add: Tanks ought to be the *first* to fall, if anyone does. Ideally, they keep everyone alive, but they should be taking the hits so the squishies don't.
@@ProjectKhopesh exactly, if they released a HP scaling healer that also draws aggro and taunts they would be close if not equal to Preservation because enemies won't be attacking your squishies every turn and thus AOE would be the only times they need to heal and the healers would get constant Energy from the attacks to keep the teams HP full. My Gepard with his signature LC is getting hit by 90% of the enemies attacks, the shields are nice but they would not last if all the enemies ganged up on my support but purely having Gepard means only the AOE attack ever hit them and those inherintely have lower damage than the repeated single target hits while also constantly refilling Gepards ultimate. It sucks even more with Lynx and Bailou who has so much HP and also want to use their burst for healing, if they had aggro and taunts they would go from mid to high ranked instantly. Then there is also CC, Gepard does not have a cleanse but it does not matter because he is always the one being hit by the CC not the rest of the team and since he does not care about crit and Broken keel exists its easy to have upwards of 70+% Effect res meaning he never gets CCd while making the rest of the team very unlikely to be CCd. There is even a abundance LC that massively boosts Effect Ress which is useless now because healers almost never get hit.
Honestly suprised they just havent added an enemy that does more damage to shields in the game or something that eats through shields to your real health like those wolves from genshin. Atm i think Lynx is the only healer that overheals by increasing max hp but its only to one person so its only really beneficial on blade tbh.
Bailu can do it too, "When Bailu heals a target ally above their normal Max HP, the target's Max HP increases by 10% for 2 turns.". And funny you say they did not add a enemy that deals more damage to shields since they added the opposite of that, the monkey that takes damage from shields when attacks them.
SAM does that though? (Eating health while having shield) except it's when we consume SP, as an Aventurine main this does not make me happy although this hasn't been a big issue for me since his shields are that strong
@@dellaisnotaduck Aventurine is probably the best sustain against Sam. You don't have to worry about dying even with 1 HP as long as you have thick shield, which is easy with Aventurine given how frequent Sam's aoe attack is. It's literally the reason preservation's weighted curio makes enemy attacks ignore shield to a certain degree, because hp is literally useless when you have shield. Also just in case you don't know, you can't die from HP drain mechanics, it stops at 1 HP, except that 1 specific glass curio in SU.
@@MystraThat's a terrible comparison. In souls people literally choose the most OP weapons to beat the game easily, and people who want a challenge use weapons they just enjoy HSR is a gacha game, if you love a character but don't like how they play then it can be annoying Also it's not about any particular character, its about that healing is just worse than shields, and they should be more equal
The thing is that there are no alternatives that already exist. You mentioned taunt but realistically how many bosses use single target attack as their big stronk? Maybe Lofu's monke, a couple of centaurs, Hoolay and that's about it. Aventurine does aoe, Kafka does aoe, Phantylia- aoe, Dragon does...something, Sam aoe as well.
Taunt is simply isnt good enough in turn based game. The moment the enemy has AoE attack, it become worthless. In action or tab target games, at least you can stay away from other allies
I just hope healers can keep up with Aventurine. Like an artifact set that can increase defense or max HP of allies when healed. You can’t not have a reviving feature in the game and then make the enemies so strong that they kill the allies before they have a chance to react.
I’ve had this worry about Aventurine for awhile now so I’m glad I wasn’t the only one to disagree on how they handle his kit. Honestly your suggestion where you give up a turn to basically just block is something I hope they introduce to this game. Turn based are already linear by nature so I don’t see why they have implemented some sort of.. guard that gains no SP just so we can survive a boss nuke In your opinion would you say pulling Aventurine flattens the difficulty for most accounts that have him?
Even though I love my aventurine I realized overtime the flaw of shields and why it’s hard to counter, if all they do is up the damage to get past it then abundance units aren’t as viable. The only way I can think of balancing it is having future enemies counter shields in some aspect to have units like abundance be more attractive. Like 20% of the damage goes through shields. I personally just think it’s kinda boring that you just turn off your brain with preservation units and hope there’s content that helps with that. Aventurine has way too much uptime on his shields. I just want to actually have to worry about dying in harder content besides simulated universe lol but that’s just my weird opinion
It might be unpopular, but I think introducing evasion mechanics could mix things up a little. Most turn-based RPGs (SMT, Persona, Pokemon, Digimon, etc.) have some form of accuracy and evasion stat. A Preservation unit that sets up an evasion veil or a Nihility unit that debuffs enemy accuracy. They can also tune it so we can't just abuse evasion too, some attacks can be unavoidable, setting a limit on how much this stat can be manipulated, there's plenty of ways of doing it.
Seriously. And the thing is, HSR players seem so vehemently against accuracy/evasion because they think the game will become too hard if your opponent can dodge attacks And yea, setting a limit to your evasion that comes from pure stats alone is a good start
@@kichiroumitsurugi4363 it is a little silly to think that your average Cloud Knight would be able land a hit on people like Yanqing and Feixiao. Also, I think they could make abilities work with evasion too. Like how Yunli has to get hit for her to counter, they could re-work Yanqing so every time he dodges, he'll launch his follow-up
Genshin had the same "problem" and they made enemies who could bypass the shields, they will probably do the same here, making healers a must for one or two rotations
@@lancertheimaginary8462That's the main reason I'm holding off on pulling Adventurine. Because I already have FX. And if Hoyo goes this route, she will become more valuable than him.
the only way I see hsr making healers relevant again is if they release a character like Furina or introduce enemies that can ignore shields 😭aven and fuxuan are way more comfortable to use atm
I think the best way to do it is make abundance give extra utility. aventurine and fx give some crit, yes, but huohuo energy regen + er and Gallagher's insane toughness bar nuking and SP generation provide much more (as stated by the video) So, preservation = keeping team alive easily Abundance = keeping team alive a little worse, but also with utility. I find myself using gal over aven because of the utility he provides
In Genshin it works bc you can still dodge boss attacks, but imangine HSR Furina draining your HP before a boss attack and you don’t have heal and can’t dodge
noticed you forgot the option of "lower the enemies attack or dmg dealt" while it is present in the game, it's highly regulated in available access to players since only Gallagher's Enhanced Basic, Silverwolf's talent (rng), Jiaoqiu's talent with E4and Huohuo's technique (2 turns only at start of battle) are the only ATK down reductions available to the player, and their effectiveness is extremely limited or like... Natasha's Technique being a 30% damage dealt debuff but only last the first enemy turn... as for team buffs that reduce damage taken... there are only 3 I know of: fire MC's skill lasting only 1 turn (15%), bailu's A6 trace making invigorated party members take 10% less damage and Fu Xuan's Talent giving 18% reduction to the whole team when a shield is able to give in many cases 50% to even 100% or more eHP. In order for damage reduction effects to have equal in overall eHP effectiveness they would have to scale up to like 25%~50% to be on equal footing, and they simply don't match up atk and damage reductions could be expanded to be much more effective and in the right kit could become a staple for future meta or semi-meta comps just depends if Hoyo wants to acts on it or not
That's definitely an option hoyo has if they wanted to go down that route. That could even be a way for debuffers to have more relevance as pseudo sustainers instead of just action delay like what comes from Welt.
A healer whose skill heals but whose ult gives one instance of block or dodge to the team could be really fun to play, as you'd have to time the ult in order to nullify damage. Something like that could be satisfying without being insanely overpowered maybe
I really second this, a dodge mechanic or other mitigation would be great points of decision on the player and in general just offers another way of supporting.
@@SpoopsAHoy And I feel like dodging should have been an actual thing from the start. But it isn't, so now Hoyo can freely drain wallets by slapping it on a specific character
@@kichiroumitsurugi4363 Yeah, It would be really nice if they made occasional gameplay updates and/or redesigned severely underperforming characters. Alas, money says otherwise.
From someone who uses starter characters against story enemies and bosses, the preservation problem shows itself like the Kool-Aid man. I only have March 7th and Fire Trailblazer as my only means of defending my team without pulling from the gacha. My only healers I can use are back broken Natasha, Lynx (her e2 is kinda wack now that enemies can spam numerous ailments lol), and Gallagher. At some point these characters will die eventually due to enemies that have 500 SPD and numerous turns if not by my boredom of using the same characters to keep my team alive kek
Other than Bailu and E2 FX, if HSR release an Abundance char that revives with X no. turns cooldown then Abundance might have a higher edge over Preservation char. Right now Aventurine dominates all endgame contents and Su/DU However if Hp drain mechanic becomes much more meta then healers might have higher value than Shield char.
I really do wish there was a "fortify" option for a turn action. It should cost 0 skill points, but also doesn't generate a skill point. I wish I could play without sustain characters sometimes, but those big boss attacks make it actually impossible without 0 cycling them.
I want to see a turn based game where the combat is like you would expect, but the defense is reliant on timing enemy attacks to block them. That would be epic!
i wish hsr would fix their shielding problem just like genshin did, they perfectly balanced shields there to the point where its really just a preference if you want a healer or a shielder. first they added rifthounds that completly ignore shields then they added furina that rewards you for bringing a healer and thats insanely good and then they made sure that healers provide a lot more than shielders (avarage healer in genshin provides way more than an avarage healer in hsr) and ofc lets not forget the amount of hp scalling damage dealer they added such as neuvilette that make suriviving way easier i know that its not a fully great comparision because one is a turn based game and the second is life action game that lets you dodge all the enemy damage, but still the actions hoyo made against shields in genshin is something id really want in hsr
Hoyo really messed up by power creeping sustain so early on. There’s 2 whole paths dedicated to them, and as long as you can keep the team alive it’s almost always worth investing into other characters rather than pulling for sustains. Also taunt can’t really be a viable tanking option due to the sheer number of enemies that attack your whole team or 3 members. Lastly a ton of people brought up overheal as a future mechanic, and while that feels inevitable they can also make a preservation unit that provides team shield similar to the boss mechanic at the end of penacony
I agree with all of your poitns, they are all FACTS! Its wild how with all these CC's nobody made a video fully dedicated to this. Youve earned my sub bro 🔥🔥🔥👏🏻
A couple months ago I was brainstorming some ways they could branch out sustains beyond just healing and shielding. Like, we see Aven basically deals damage scaling off Def despite being a shielder, so why not make a Preservation unit who actually works as a DPS by absorbing team shields? There's a DU equation that does that already iirc, which also makes a team-wide shield form (similar to how Sunday's boss battle gives your team a shield). Another avenue of sustain is to buff max HP then share HP among the team. Its like an inverse of Fu Xuan where instead of one taking most of the damage, everyone shares the damage. Of course, this means the risk of a team wipe is present but it also means any healing benefits everyone at the same time. It doesn't have to stop at this but its MHY's job to create and implement new ideas and right now we're basically just retreading ground but in limited rarity.
I'd like to see a guard mechanic, and it'd be like they take half of all dmg (DoT or enemy DMG) done to them until their next turn but costs a skill point so you have to play around it and your sustain so they can act before they die. And/or to make Abundence a better option to Preservation in the future since it's pretty one sided, they could introduce true dmg or a penetration type enemy which chews through shields faster than HP. And the other way around too for another enemy or gamemode, where shields are tougher to take that dmg and do much more dmg to HP if they wanted to balance it out and have themselves, just spitballing but i'd love to see either of these implemented cuz that'd bring.
It should just cost 0 skill points and generate 0 skill points. 1 skill point is extremely expensive for damage reduction on a single character (just consider what an abundance/preservation can do with that skill point instead).
@@1987jjl I mean I'd prefer it to but there should be a cost besides just skipping their turn for something that is relatively OP (if they make it worth while, if not then it should be 0-0) imo
A big help would be giving defensive capabilities to abundance characters. Whenever I bring an abundance character I feel like I open myself up for random one-shots from the enemy, which resulted in me usually always running either Fu Xuan or Aventurine, and in most cases both for the two teams in MoC and AS. At this point in time I completely avoid abundance characters, even though I own Huo Huo and Gallagher
The game itself has a problem because it doesn't value healing and shielding in different ways. Basically both do the same thing (sustain) but because shielders prevent damage overall they're just basically better. The game should adjust enemy stats (more damage less health to fit in a team comp where both healing AND shielding are important but still clearable with just one support) , and some mechanics (like say, some attacks dealing more damage to shields).
One of my favourite unit archetypes in gaming is dodge tank. They are unexplored but very fun (and rng) Imagine a character that grants like 80% dodge to the entire party while dealing significant damage themselves bc they don't need to build defensive stats. And ult can be similar to Yunli's - guaranteed taunt and block
Hoyo toyed with the idea on early Aven, but it was dropped in favor of trusty old shields, as dodge being chance based means you can't really guarantee that next big hit wouldn't wipe half your team. The way I would've done it is to make a buff that makes next X hits do 0 damage, with some minor healing in between. Aeons know that chance-based mechanics can already be annoying, doubly so when applied to survivability. Although the archetype is really damn fun, I agree. In Darkest Dungeon, one of more fun and simultaneously effective strategies is spamming dodge buffs/accuracy debuffs with Antiquarian/Man-at-Arms, bringing enemy hit chances to hilariously abysmal ~30%. Makes it look like your heroes beat up some defenseless eldrich horrors to take their lunch money
the problem is that there's way to stop the enemy's big attack unless you break, freeze, imprison or entangle them and you have no way of timing such things to occur so you'll always have to be prepared for a big nuke
Pretty chill for a rant. But I've already noticed this since early days that most units don't get pass the bare minimum survivability for last floor MoC if they are not maxed. Even Tingyun had to compensate some ATK to HP/DEF (not sure if that's still the standard today, but I still rock that 'compensated' build). Fu Xuan definitely failed the Swarm Disaster test -a content released at the same time on her release-. She died on difficulty V when the phase 3 swarm do their AoE attack and Fu Xuan was in full health. I can attest my team would survive better against this AoE attack with Fire TB with his skill active (-15% dmg reduction to all allies). Then comes Aventurine that pretty much block your team from having HP any less than 100% on almost every content. Because if there's chance that to happen, the team will become lack in damage if they swap out 1 unit for another healer. I feel this is intentional bad balancing keep on 2nd year.... along with The Hunt as a path. There's no actual good content tailored for the Hunt unit. Something like something goes really bad if you don't control your spread damage.
maybe giving the player 3 or 2 new buttons would be great aswell. One button to guard so that characters can mitigate 20%-50% of incomming dmg while being skill point neutral (what ever % is the most balanced) and another skill for each character that does something else. Heck, nihility or abundance dmg down debuffs aswell, while making one preservatie that plays a bit more with defense stat of other characters.
Its honestly an Aventurine problem. With gepard, his issue is very noticeable in fast teams where you run out of his shield before he can get enough turns to get them back again. With fuxuan her damage reduction is solid and with her lc yeah majority of content can't kill your teammate but without lc you definitely can run into situation where enemy just ignores her aggro enough that your other units end up dying. Aventurine you just outright dont take any damage with his shield and he refresh them crazy fast
It sucks that aventurine is the best sustain on so many teams, and high difficulty simulated universe modes basically require him in order to survive their insane damage hits. Huohuo + FuXuan isn't enough to keep you alive in the hardest modes unless you get perfect blessings or equations.
They need to add multiple types of Sustains beyond shielding and healing. What if you were able to dodge certain attacks or they go all in on delaying enemies (Like Welt but as a general mechanic). Having a general block button for every character can help as well (Sorta like PR Trailblazer). I think Hsr focuses disproportionately on Offense instead of Defense including enemies not really pushing your team to the limit to create that need to defend.
My take on what they could do is use the “Nullify” buff they have in that one curio in SU; which is kind of what you said about the one turn invulnerability skill.
I mean the way I see it so long as your effective defensive stats (hp, def and other dmg mitigation) are above the oneshot range then healing is better than shielding although just slightly. It becomes how many of these hp a unit can pump out. Since shields can't stack indefinitely (yes they can stack on top of eachother but each char has their limits in the talent) and neither can hp they're equivalent in that regard and the only difference is that shields have a duration but that rarely comes into play (except in gepard's case). If we start both units on 1 hp the healer will 100% it and shielder will put a shield, doesn't matter if rhe healers side drops down to 20% since they'll just heal back up, same as the shielder "healing" their shield. You can say that shielders have a one time use extra hp bar since once you take health dmg with a shielder there is no way to regen that health. It's also unfair to say healers use skill points and shielders don't, it depends on a unit. Both Luocha and Aventurine can run without any sp consumed and both Huohuo and Fu (or march if you care for a shielder) must use sp. And I absolutely think the one thing he just glosses over is the difference of what makes some units op in hsr, things they do in addition to sustain. Pretty much every abundance/preservation char can sustain if they and the team are properly built. The extra things they do is what gives them their value.
Before watching the video, i Will say Fu Xuan really suffer in SU. The damage she needs to support sometimes IS just overwelming. Also, i hate that the enemies resistance bar gets bigger and bigger. I understand for bosses like the crystal T-rex, but some others do not deserve that much resistance.
Just happened to finish a Div Uni 8 run Vs Argenti yesterday before stumbling across this vid and ended up with a Robin that could provide shields from her Skill and Ult and a Jade that could heal from her Ult while Himeko and Acheron were managing timely breaks. I was just very confused at the absurd range of utility from my makeshift support sustains xD
A problem regarding skill expression in the game is that , ova there is no need for that(from hoyo perspective) like , you don't compete with anyone, and it does not matter if u 0 cicle or 10 cicle moc for example . Imo it would be so cool to have things like that , more skill expression , more ways to play out the game. And unfortunately , the bigest problem right now is that the combat is way to straight forroword besides sp management there is no skill involved. Maybe with 3.0 we will get something.
there's only so much skill expression you can have in a gacha since what they want the most is to sell you characters, it all comes down to build your team right and done, most of the "skill" part is done outside of combat, (speed tuning, rotation planning, placement and stuff)
The only thing I don't like about shields is that it's very anti synergistic with Blade, one of my favorite characters. I'm considering pulling for a third Promocional Sustain just for that 😅
2:07 there's a flaw with this statement, not all shielders can provide infinite shields with little to no sp cost, only aventurine can other preservation units takes way more sp than your average healers to maintain their shields, shielders generally are required to constantly sink dp into keeping their shields up all the time as they cant heal and cant risk losing actual hp, while healers dont need to heal unless necessary, hence using less sp tldr: shields give higher effective total hp but require constant sp investment, healing have less effective hp but doesn't need to use sp unless necessary until hyv introduced fx and aven and completely broke this balance
I assume we're talking about sim world torturous (Gears realistically because divergent 8 is far more generous and way less punishing) a lot of other survivability tools exist damage split blessings, fu xuan, def bonus, actual max hp bonus, reduced damage taken. To clear that high end content usually it's about 2 things. Reaching a survivability threshold, and then having a way to sustain either with a healer or with things like heal on ult, heal on follow up, heal on skill point use, etc. The thing that actually then pushes the bosses in most cases to a point where they can kill you IS time/turncount because a lot of these bosses have stacking buffs with no cap, which then when combined with said finishing move just delete you. Enemy delay and speed become very important because of this so they don't scale out of control and you finish the fight in a timely manner. /my opinion.
Overall a really good Video youve earmed my Sub. The Problem i have in General is the Balancing. Its hard to compare HSR with your Average Single Player Turn Based RPG cause the balancing is by far not competable due to the Gacha Aspect.
The thing about Abundance characters is that they are only good at recovering health or cleansing your team and not preventing you from getting one shot. They do not have defensive ability to keep your team members from getting one shotted. All of 5 star Preservation units have inbuilt defensive utility in their kit. Gepard with the increased taunt value, Fu Xuan with the damage redirection to herself and Aventurine with the refreshable shields with his Follow Up Attack. Compare that with Abundance characters that only heal you. I remember dying to the Yanqing bossfight early on because he kept one shotting my team so instead I used Gepard and was able to clear the fight.
Imagine a timing mechanic where you have to press a button that acts as a dodge at the right time of an enemy attack, and the damage can go to the character with the most health or the sustain character I dont know if this mechanic would be fun or not tho
It may be unrelatable, but my built sustains don't provide shields and I don't really have sustain problems unless I am deep in Simulated Universe endgame (Like Swarm Disaster or Golden gears). Apocaliptic Shadow can sometimes be problematic in that regard. Unless new enemies appear that ignore shields, Aventurine a any future sustain character that provides shields will be preferred over healers most of the time. I do agree that a character that provides stackable shields that block a single instance of damage provides a solution for certain enemies.
This is more a problem to weak characters from hunt and erudition and ones from Nihility. Normally Supports, destruction doesn't have defense problems so Abundance is pretty good but it's not like that you need abundance, most the times is just for the kit synergy.
I'm not sure if I *really* agree with this. Aventurine specifically is very broken and FX is very good, but the other shield characters are very niche. Several Abundance units also *don't* actually have to spend SP (or very rarely, but that happens with shielders as well) to heal up your team. Luocha and Gallagher can keep the team alive by basically just basic attacking and ulting, Huohuo only has to refresh her skill every 2 (or 3 if you have E1) turns, but I would barely consider that a downside considering her crazy utility on her ult and her auto-cleanse every turn. Shields vs heals only becomes an issue (imo) in the higher difficulty SU and DU modes, where enemies will just 1-shot you sometimes.
I think the thing that would make it to where healers shine over preservation units is to lean more on status infliction from enemies. Crowd control or Dots that wear down at shields, but make it to where healers shine (except Bailu) due to being able to cleanse off bad status. In the worst case give enemies cleanse. I personally think Aventurine is violently overtuned, and while Fu xuan is pretty busted as well I at least feel like she can be worn down.
Shields in general with 90-100% uptime is mistake. Unless, They're hard counters like True damage or something. It's broken as mechanic. I literally borrowed my friend aventurine and forgot Feixiao weekly deals a lot of damage. This is probably why actual challenging games like Elden Ring/Black Myth try to limit their defensive utility as much as possible. In case of Gachas, The closest is WW but they do exist. It only has certain condition but it's not as easy Zhongli/Aventurine where you can reapply it in short amount of time. (This could change since they have to powercreep current shielders)
I believe healers gain more relevance with destruction characters. If they release more chunky DPS who can withstand 1 shot like Blade and Firefly, or a DPS that can increase his Max hp with overflow healing and his dmg is full hp based that will make healers like Luocha that heals a metric ton come back to the meta.
Thr only way i can think of to balance shields is to release units that whilst aren't as powerful defences as Fu Xuan or aventurine have Secondary purposes that arent pure defence or for example to release a 5star that creates a new team role beyond support, Healer, Tank, DPS, and Sub DPS. For example a role like support DPS where the characters has a good attack multiplier but low attack stats because their purpose isn't to act as a second dps but to act as a support DPS not just dealing damage but buffing your own units to a smaller degree then harmony, for example imagine a support dps who enhances toughness break (specifically the effects that happen when the break bar breaks) with a lot of Bonus ability trace buffs that are Dependent on team construction that could for example provide 10% of their Unbuffed Speed to everyone in party, and then to round outnthe support their light coje rather then giving them stronger buffs to make them into a harmony, or attack to make them ijto a full DPS, instead gives them something like whenever using skill grant party a shield equal to 60% Defence, and then give the unit something in the realm of 2000 base defence so with their light cone they become a preservation unit whilst having the ability to act as a 4star dps and Harmony role simultaneously (specifically this is a rough explanation of a kit for a theoretical Order Unit Focusing on Crowd control, defending(with light cone) and buffing the team and even if they don't act as the best unit in any role thie shear utility makes them pretty much usable in any team just for their lightcones shielding on a full DPS abulty even if they cant beat aventurines shields their attack buffs mean thwt even with aventurine you can use the two in the same party (specifically i imagined their unique Debuff as a dual Imaginary quantum pseudo weakness implant and that upon being weakness broken they take one stack of imprisonment and entanglement simultaneously effectively meaning they act as a nuke to enemies moving if you can weakness break them but their talent prevents them from being used in Apocalyptic shadow to full effect ("whenever an enemy is weakness broken whilst possessing threads of Order they Regenerate toughness bar equal to the amount of threads as a %×10 then remove one stack of Thread of Order from the enemy" (so if they have 3 stacks of threads the enemy including bosses regenerates 30% toughness whilst remaining action delayed, entangled and imprisoned)) Also their skill applies single target action delay (the threads of order constricting the enemies movements based on all afflicted with the threads)
If you check persona (the game that HSR got their inspiration from) , you have multiple ways of defending yourself For example: 1: you have a chance to dodge an attack and perform a Follow up 2: performing certain types of heals that increases your max HP 3: blocking certain types of damages depending on what persona your unit wields 4: using certain types of items that prevents you from getting one shotted 5: dealing critical damages or weakness attack results in action forward 6: ordering one unit to form a defensive position and block all the incoming attacks 7: improving your defense greatly by combining certain types of skills 8: some enemies can pierce through your shield so you can use your knowledge of what type of damage the enemy does and perform Special counter attacks or dodge (dodging happens randomly) in order to get action forward or block the attack in order to prevent your team from dying And many other ways that I don't remember
@@tsf9600 dragon age inquisition - the elder scrolls Skyrim (I know this ones aren't turn based but I was talking about Turn based combat) and yes I love Persona since I've grown up playing it
@@Nilouhara Fair, I just wanted to point out that HSR has literally hundreds of references to draw inspiration from, and from a design perspective Persona isn't really one of them, or at least not enough to consider it a main inspiration; Persona *itself* is a spin-off of the SMT franchise and drew inspiration from it when designing its battle system.
They could probably fix the shielder problem with 4* preservation units. Maybe a 4* who only casts small shield that are designed to be broken, healing teammates while damaging enemies with a follow-up attack.There's all kinds of good ideas that can be used on preservation characters, but making them 5*s would be blatent powercreep, but putting them on 4* characters could easily solve the issue as they would more buff existing characters than be a powerhouse themself.
Gold and Gears was really difficult on my account because of the lack of shield users I have, there is one face die that makes it so you can't be damaged beyond a certain % of hp allowing you to not get chokeslammed for not pulling Aventurine or Fu Xuan. Honestly if healers had that going for them then it would at least open up some options since end game content is just "can you survive this HP check or can you kill this enemy fast enough to not get killed in one shot."
I think part of the problem is also DPS units lie Firefly being jsut too good. Ennemies had to get faster otherwise a lot of them get stun locked or outright killed before they even act, so we end up with the Boisin and Hoolay being super fast to act before our dps can kill them and super strong to compensate for Aventurine and Fu Xuan. On top of that, the problem is made worse by the gaccha aspect, we cannot easily retool our team for a fight, theres a lot of character I do not own and I cannot easily on a dime change their relic and relic stats to compensate for a boss' specific requirements
Shielding is excellent and they’re quite a few enemies that have the abilities to do defense ignore and I’m sure you’re going to see that more in the future to mitigate shielding
I think the best way to nerf preservation is to have enemies that pierce shields. Not like 2.3 Zhongli "we do damage through the shield" type enemies, but rather enemies that can hit through part of the shield, like maybe half the damage hits the actual shield while the rest does damage to health, and making it so the scaling increases on the shield, so they can't easily one shot teammate if you're running a healer
I think this game need some kind of new way to interact with the battle that don't rely on your characters turn, think it like the SU path skills but for the Endgame modes and more personalized. You could choose to give a character a barrier or a taunt, delay/freeze a single enemy, maybe increase a character's ultimate gauge by 20% for that clutch Gepard shield right before a boss recks you, just a type of resource that you really needs to think about when to use it, how to use it and what to use similar to how other turn base RPGs handle skills with cooldowns 'cause as you said it, there's not much skill expression on the current game.
Lets be real: the only think that mihoyo will do is an indirect nerfs with enemy that prevent win condition: Shields are too strong? Lets add an enemy that ignore it(and add a new 5* sustainer that prevent it) Break Team to strong? Lets add an enemy that cant be break. FUatk are too strong? Lets add an enemy that punish for attacking him too much, and etc(debuff imune enemy to ruin Acheron) 5:48 Also i just notice why is "skip turn" ins't an option? I cant count how much my Jingliu had to waste her stance charge in Aventurine "is all or nothing" stage
Healers could get more use if: 1.) DOT dealt more damage to shields. 2.) Some enemies can pierce through shields 3.)They have some sort of damage reduction 4.) Accumulate healing into damage
It's almost impossible to clear advanced levels of divergent universe without a shielder. I don't have one, I'm this close 🤏 to spend all of my jades just to get a Geppard because I'm not patient enough to wait for either Fu Xuan or Aventurine reruns. The hell even if I had 4 star preservation characters I would be happy.
If even in genshin where they don't care to much they were able to bypass the mechanics of op shields, I am certainly that the team in hsr can do it as well, all they need to do is give true damage to enemies, or poison type dmg that bypasses shields
I feel like dance dance dance and harmonies are a bigger issue than this take. Sustains really only play a role in du and su. wind set and ddd shows use sustain is just slowing damage down unless you have like e6 adventurine
Well, we have barriers that block all incoming damage once and revival mechanics, both already in the game but heavely underutilized. The problem is that although this mechanics allow a much more engaging and "smart" gameplay, they by far overshadow both healing and shields as they essentially mean one turn invulnerability. Introducing them into a meta would be a terrible power creep, much more than any other so far. The overheal may is basically the same, although it's probably easier to balance. My guess is that we will have a turn-denial meta at some point as it will allow more characters stay relevant for a longer time and fits the current trend (summons and follow-ups).
Biggest issue is enemy damage being too high to a point where shields are required(or fuxuan cuz she s broken).They need to make healers maybe overheal,all of them,maybe introduce an artifact set that convers 50%overheal into shield which i would argue will buff all other healers.Make limited sustainers maybe bring in a lot of goodies for a niche and keep the overheal for all healers,maybe also buff all shielders to give support buffs instead?.Well thats my 2cents on this.
while i agree shields are generally better than healing in HSR, so long as either healing or shields work in content like MOC, PF, and AS, i don't really see a problem. healing allows you to keep your units at full HP while shielding lets you tank bigger hits even when you aren't full. you mention how a unit with barely any HP could still last so long as they have a shield, but the same is true if that unit was just healed. moreover, if your shield was low, you'd still need to refresh it (taking the same resources as a healer). i think the issue is just that aventurine specifically is just the strongest sustain in the game rn, so shields seem better. no one talked about shields when the best unit we had for them was gepard, bc shielding along isn't enough to make a sustain great. as for sim u, there are enough ways to get shields (and other sustain options) through the blessings that i don't see it as an issue there either. obviously it can feel bad to need to get those sustain cards over damage ones, but the enemy stats are so inflated in sim u that of course going in with no strategy won't go well. the new healing overflow > shield curio seems like a sign that hoyo knows that if they increase enemy dmg, they need to keep healers functional and new options will be created for that
@theseventhsheep9724 Hey thanks for the comment! My real concern(if you could call it that, this is mostly just a discussion video) is that the only two preservation characters released are definitely a level above most other units in terms of keeping your team alive - aventurine rarely has to skill in most content + fu xuan is fu xuan, compared to huohuo who needs to be skilling often to keep her passive healing active & refresh her ult. It might feel like aventurine is an outlier, but what happens when the inevitable next preservation releases with a kit just as strong or stronger than theirs? Agreed on the aim universe point, there's definitely options and hopefully hoyo does move in the right direction there with the healing blessings/curios
@@fl2ur i can definitely see your point, i just wonder how much of the issue you see right now is coming from the specific units we have at the moment. you mention huohuo, but one of her limitations has always been that her healing isn't massive, so i feel like she isn't the best example of a healer. luocha (while far from perfect as a unit) is still a super comfy healer with his talent heal + frequent heals on teammate attacks. when comparing him to aven and fuxuan, unless you have 2300 hp teammates, i don't see any big difference. of course, in those cases where you have super squishy supports, a shielder would be nice, but basically every support except maybe tingyun and robin can give their full value with an HP/DEF body/orb. i guess we'll have to see with new enemies, but even then with at least the next boss in hoolay, he feels designed more for lingsha than any future shielder
@@hypemaddox yes, aven is def good against him, i was more using him as an example since lingsha will also be great against him, showing how both healers and shielders can have good match ups
@@theseventhsheep9724 Lingsha suffers in that fight simply cause she isn't fast enough to keep up with Hoolay if he enters the bloodthirsty state (Her emergency heal trigger is high enough you can easily waste and without ult you are pretty much screwed)
I like to compare turn based games to Golden Sun or Paper Mario. Your concept of adding another mechanic to block instead of attacking would make the game less one dimensional 100% i can get behind this idea. Its in paper mario and golden sun. When hsr first came out and i noticed there was only one skill and an ult i had a feeling something like this might happen. Hoyo either needs to slow down on characters to disable the immense power creep and add another more basic skill to all characters(similar to the defend mechanic) or change certain aspects of the game. It aint gonna be an easy feat. I completely agree with your statement of them pigeon holing themselves. They for sure have. Itll be difficult to get themselves out of it. And adding arbitrary difficulty to fights just wont be it either. Some big adjustment will need to be made. Im kinda glad i dont have aventurine. After witnessing his shields i feel like it would trivialize so much content. Im pulling lingsha for my fua team, shes also cute, and she heals. Worth. The biggest issue here is that its a gacha game. They want us to pull for characters, etc. But in any normal turn based game, you either grind for new skills or unlock power on your own to complete the difficult content. I pray hoyo figures something out. Maybe 3.0 will introduce a rework of mechanics to the game. I pray..
It seems Hoyoverse is trying to make Abundance characters more desirable especially for FuA teams as Lingsha who is coming up soon has her Fu Yuan summon that goes into the turn rotation and as a special perks where every 2 turn if an ally drops below 60% HP then Fu Yuan’s action immediately advances forward and heals/cleanses the party while dealing AOE damage. This could be seen as an overkill of healing due to both Fu Yuan and Lingsha doing AOE healing but considering if you’re pairing her with someone like Jade then you realize that she’s supposed to help someone like her.
The one complaint that i have with this is that you said "chose to bring (abundance unit) instead of (preservation unit) some people may have lost their aventurine and fu xuan 50/50's or just didnt have enough jades. So they are stuck using gallagher and lynx
the problem with adding more mechanics is that hsr is game made for both more competitive players that want to get in the weeds and more casual players, while adding more options would make the game more fun for competitive players it would reduce the casual player experience and make the game more complex for them possibly driving a lot of them away. For this reason I don't think anything will change like this because they want to straddle the line and keep both audiences.
The thing is, sustains are not in the party to actually sustain. It was their main goal at the start of the game, but Hoyo don't advertise new ones for this reason nor do you pull for new characters just because you can't survive endgame. Well, at least not after you've already pulled 2 limited ones. The further into the game we go, the more they will become enablers for different team archetypes, just like Aventurine is for FUA and Lingsha/Gallagher is for break, and HuoHuo is for hypercarry. Expect sustains designed for different archetypes (DOT, debuffs, self-buffing DPS, HP manipulation DPS, potential new mechanics like Dissociation for mono-Ice teams) and expect Harmonies and DPSs that sinergy specifically with kits of certain sustains. Just like in Genshin you don't pull for Baizhu or Kokomi, or Xianyun just because you need heals, you pull them to enhance or even make possible certain team types. So, in that sense the difference between shielding and healing doesn't matter. If Hoyo wants you to run certain teams in current endgame, they also know which sustains work for these teams and tune enemies accordingly. As for SU, it certainly caters to specific characters much more, which is frustrating when it's a top-tier shielder like Aventurine, but - every new SU has different blessings and devs are free to rebalance them at any time. They can remove stacking of shields completely and stack overheals instead. It won't change the way characters work, but, hillariously, will turn this whole situation upside down without adding new buttons to battle interface or smth.
Fuxuan and Aventurine is pretty broken in general. Adding another preservation with survival focused unit would slowly break the game balance. The only reason why Abundance get used is mostly because their extra debuff or buff but that still doesn't hold candle when it comes to extreme difficulty such as DU/SU where having more heal doesn't mean a damn thing as enemies could delete your 5k-8k HP in just 1 turn. But a shield somehow able to negate this completely which makes preservation path inherently broken and unbeatable compared to the Abundance path that crippled by the heal limit/damage. The appearance of Fuxuan that able to negate most of the attack to herself and still giving some buff to players with the following Aventurine that literally fit into FuA team that also is the strongest team in the games makes me think that the preservation path is beyond repair and probably only get worse by powercreep. Next probably should be along dot preservation, or break preservation lmao.
![[2.3 HSR] Aeons Come in Pairs - A Honkai Star Rail Theory](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/iMRtiNQHmQo/mqdefault.jpg)
It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to get past the hardest levels of the Simulated Universe without a shield since no matter how good your healer is it is useless if the enemy kills your characters in 1-2 hits.
I predict that in the future they will start:
- Making healers capable of converting overheal into Max Health or Damage Reduction
- Making enemies capable of going through or nullifying shields to motivate the use of healers.
Also about why we dont have more Preservation Characters, i think they kinda peaked to soon with Fu Xuan and Aventurine since they are just TO GOOD and they are afraid of powercreeeping them and break the game
the thing is, there are enough blessings/curios/equations/etc in SU and DU to where those shields don't have to come from your characters, and the enemies hit hard enough that even full def aventurine players will still need to pick up blessings that buff shields to not get 1-2 shot. SU/DU just isn't balanced around base characters, you're not killing a boss with 1280% extra HP before it kills you with any dps if you don't pick up the right blessings
@@theseventhsheep9724Even if you are loaded with Blessings of Abundance this won't prevent your team from being One-Shotted by the final boss while with Preservation at the end of the run you are practically immortal.
Even taking Blessings and Curios into consideration doesn't change the fact that Shields are superior 9 times out of 10 since at the end of the day preventing damage will always be superior.
@@Truck-kun11 i'm talking about getting preservation blessings that give you shields even if you run a healer. there also are blessings that increase your max hp, and those still can be enough to prevent a one-shot, while your healer + the resonance heal you up
i agree that shields are generally better, my point was just that you don't need characters to give you them, so long as you play SU correct. the stats are so inflated in SU that at the higher levels especially, you need to squeeze out every bit of dmg and sustain possible
@@theseventhsheep9724I agree, but my point is not that you need characters that give shilds, but that you need shilds in general.
Not using shilds is not a option since healing alone is just not enought and that is a problem since they should be balanced.
@@Truck-kun11 my point on needing to bring characters or not came from how i think abundance and preservation units themselves are balanced, rather than raw shields vs healing.
of course, when enemies get as strong as they do in SU, one-shotting becomes an issue, and so shields will inevitably be stronger. even if shields in this game acted as a "will save you fully from the dmg of x number of hits" rather than HP overflow, that issue would still exist. for that reason, i think it's more worth to compare the sustain units themselves, and in that regard abundance and preservation still feel very balanced to me, since even if your shielder can save you from one hit, unless you stack blessings on them, your team will still take some damage every time and be killed off.
the moment we get a healer that overcaps your max hp and acumulates the amount of healing you get so u deal more damage, that day, me and all the Bladie mains will finally be happy
Fr I have a 80smt crit rate 170-250 crit damage blade (depending on my team comp) but because nothing really buffs his hp he can’t get to crazy numbers from harmony units
That's just a shield calling itself hp
On paper that's literally just asking for an abundance character that can shield
This could easily make Shielders obsolete 😂
Why get a 2k shield when you gan just get 2k more hp and heals on top of it so your EHP is always 5k instead of slowly dropping to only 2k.
Abundance would overthrow Preservation in High Conundrum.
Literally would be the best sustain unit in the game with nothing to contest it ever
Content that “requires” healers can be just as easily done by shielders but content that requires shielders cannot be done with healers
Hard disagree lol
@@sev559 where is this not true (in relation to HSR)
@@PMDG07 there’s no content that only shielders can clear exclusively
If you’re going to bring up divergent universe then the shields you get from the equations are what keeps you alive and they can be acccesed by healers too not the 3000 hp shield from your own preservation character base kit
@@sev559 maybe it was an exaggeration seeing as how their is no content that specifically requires shielders yet but the point still stands. In things like MOC where enemies hit extremely hard it’s much harder to use a healer because you now need to build your supports to be more tanky, some enemies like that Penacony gorilla punish you for not shielding. Even enemies that make you want to cleanse like SAM isn’t a problem with big enough shield. Even in some other game modes, without enough defensive setup enemies like the True sting will just wipe out a party before heals can come.
@@PMDG07 maybe on lesser built accounts but as someone with 80/80 characters and standard e0 builds I pretty much use luocha and gallagher for MoC almost all the time and it’s rare to get someone killed.
I understand that less built accounts will need the extra safety of preservation but when assessing classes as a whole it’s fair to do it from an endgame perspective. In which case the issue of survivability is none existent
I think the problem is that specifically Adventurine and Fu Xuan are insanely good, not so much shields. Gepard, March 7th, and Fire Trailblazer can all give shields but for the energy/skill points cost its not worth it in most cases. The whole Preservation Path was pretty useless until those 2 came around. Shields arent that good in Star Rail, but Adventurine's shields are really good.
the main reason Gepard, March 7th, and Fire Trailblazer shields also arent that good is because by default shields do not stack, if they changed that they might shine some more
Fu Xuan has fallen off, actually. Should be Tier 1, Prydwen overrate her
@@Mystra too many fuxuan glazers ngl, she barely does anything. Surprised that some people think she's better than aven
The issue is that the two Preservation characters, being Aventurine and Fu Xuan, provides something in utility other than making your characters survivable. It's either:
1. Shields that stack with talent with an innate 50% effect res
2. Skill from FX that basically relocates most of the damage to FX, along with one time CC and free 12% crit rate, and that it lasts as long as FX turns go.
Which Gepard could barely provide much for the team, which is shields but that's it. Yes, you have taunt increase on him in base. But that doesn't change how good Aventurine is compared to him, or how flexible is FX compared to her.
@@flaria185 Alright, Aventurine is obviously the best sustain in the game at the moment. But to say "Fu xuan barely does anything" is straight up absurd. She still excels at sustaining and I can clear all endgames without any worries.
If anything, abundance units are arguably behind her in terms of keeping the team alive.
Hoyo will most likely just make a 5* overheal abundance that will heal a lot and compensate for lost health from overheal provided (basically working like a shield) and not look at the problem any further
I actually think it’d be cooler if that was a Harmony character. You can over heal into higher max hp, and the higher your max hp is, the higher the buff from the harmony character. Would be a really cool blade support
@@adamnguyen966 harmony is already overloaded as is
@@duck_smuggler There are only 3 harmony 5 stars? Also, a overheal mechanic wouldn’t come until 3.0 anyways
Using Lingshua in the Wardance makes it seem that she is able to heal pretty frequently but even still I got nervous a couple times and even lost someone on one fight
@@adamnguyen966 And they're all broken in their own way. We don't need more power given to harmony when nihility and abundance are both struggling already.
If healer not doing the work of harmony they're pretty much useless
It's starting to feel that way for sure
I'm actually quite surprised they still didn't do an direct counter to Shields
Like a shield breaker or an enemy that ignores them for the most part (An enemy that focuses on one ally per once like you'd do it with a Hunt character would also work to counter Aventurine since he relies on AoE damage)
There's already some enemies that counter Abundance characters, so no reason to not add enemies that directly counter shields
They don't want to delete the Aventurine havers' comfort space yet
Well Aventurine just came out a few patches ago, before him the only other 5* Shielder was Gepard, who has a few weaknesses and can struggle with Shield uptime, the problem is that Aven shields are so easy to refresh that most of the time they end up being permanent with no real downside. I'm sure that they will introduce enemies that counter shields and characters that have better synergy with healers in the future.
True, we have good 4* sustains as back up. Lynx and Gallagher are both really good. Being forced to drop my Aventurine would be interesting.
Maybe when they add a 4* FUA Abundance is a good time they make shield breakers.
aventurine’s fua is a bounce so it deals the same dmg to both single target and aoe
@@meiilu7799they're talking about the shield itself bro.
I'm day one gepard user and still going. I never realize how broken aventurine till I count the sp uses. He's basically can refresh every turn while gepard with need to spend 2 sp to make sure he gets perfect uptime
Gepard is known for his clunky shield uptime. The reason why the release of sustain like luocha on earlier days makes gepard more undesirable. Fu xuan release basically put gepard on bench..🥹. Apart from the simulated universe he just got out performance by other sustainers.
Still he still got slot in SU. And may be better than adventurine with how gud erudition blessings that grab. Uptime is not a prob
And he gets even better in FuA teams
@@SyrFlora yup, if i used him in moc i either bring sparkle or just pray that he became the punching bag. I would rather see his hp became zero because he can get back up again and instant ult
then his E1 makes him not use a skill point at all as eeach time you use his ultimate, it automatically grants you the shield.
Putting aventurine aside, is gepard good generally? Cus that seele ‘friend’ keep coming to me and not other units
i got this after being pummled to death in v6 with fu xuan 💀 very good points
@@BMesa1 genuinely gonna take a crack at this so I got 2 guesses:
Boothill-HMC-Ruan Mei-Gallagher.
Or
Feixiao- March 7th-Robin-Gallagher.
I'm probably wrong tho lol
Funny enough I just beat V8 with mono preservation (Aventurine Gepard Ice March and Fire MC) using City Restorer equation
@@BMesa1 damn one off lol
Shields are stronger than heals unless you have some overheal mechanic that would temp increase hitpoints it will not be equal
Or enemies that counter shields
For months now I've been thinking how cool it'd be to have a preservation with a somewhat weak, but stackable, single target shield on their ult, but make the ult super cheap (like 60 energy), and allow them to hold like 3 or 4 charges.
I think a preservation thats reactive rather than passive in their sustain role and giving you the moment to moment choice of how and where to distribute your shielding would be pretty fun.
Honestly the biggest issue with healers vs Shielders is the tuant value.
Not only do shields give as much sustain as healing but just having Gepard or Adventurine in the fight already lowers the chance of your weak squishies to get targeted.
Meanwhile Loucha and Lynx doesn't stop enemies focusing on your Tingyum and bursting her down every other attempt.
Heartily agreed. Having a "tank" is only as useful as that tank's ability to mitigate damage for the team. Personal durability is great, but without a taunt mechanic (of some sort), they just wind up the last unit standing, incapable of finishing the fight. Edited to add: Tanks ought to be the *first* to fall, if anyone does. Ideally, they keep everyone alive, but they should be taking the hits so the squishies don't.
@@ProjectKhopesh exactly, if they released a HP scaling healer that also draws aggro and taunts they would be close if not equal to Preservation because enemies won't be attacking your squishies every turn and thus AOE would be the only times they need to heal and the healers would get constant Energy from the attacks to keep the teams HP full.
My Gepard with his signature LC is getting hit by 90% of the enemies attacks, the shields are nice but they would not last if all the enemies ganged up on my support but purely having Gepard means only the AOE attack ever hit them and those inherintely have lower damage than the repeated single target hits while also constantly refilling Gepards ultimate.
It sucks even more with Lynx and Bailou who has so much HP and also want to use their burst for healing, if they had aggro and taunts they would go from mid to high ranked instantly.
Then there is also CC, Gepard does not have a cleanse but it does not matter because he is always the one being hit by the CC not the rest of the team and since he does not care about crit and Broken keel exists its easy to have upwards of 70+% Effect res meaning he never gets CCd while making the rest of the team very unlikely to be CCd.
There is even a abundance LC that massively boosts Effect Ress which is useless now because healers almost never get hit.
Honestly suprised they just havent added an enemy that does more damage to shields in the game or something that eats through shields to your real health like those wolves from genshin.
Atm i think Lynx is the only healer that overheals by increasing max hp but its only to one person so its only really beneficial on blade tbh.
Bailu can do it too, "When Bailu heals a target ally above their normal Max HP, the target's Max HP increases by 10% for 2 turns.".
And funny you say they did not add a enemy that deals more damage to shields since they added the opposite of that, the monkey that takes damage from shields when attacks them.
SAM does that though? (Eating health while having shield) except it's when we consume SP, as an Aventurine main this does not make me happy although this hasn't been a big issue for me since his shields are that strong
@@dellaisnotaduckSam is a pain in the ass. I don't have any 5* sustain cuz new player
@@jmcMateo get aventurine on his rerun, he's too broken
@@dellaisnotaduck Aventurine is probably the best sustain against Sam. You don't have to worry about dying even with 1 HP as long as you have thick shield, which is easy with Aventurine given how frequent Sam's aoe attack is. It's literally the reason preservation's weighted curio makes enemy attacks ignore shield to a certain degree, because hp is literally useless when you have shield. Also just in case you don't know, you can't die from HP drain mechanics, it stops at 1 HP, except that 1 specific glass curio in SU.
I haven't watched the video yet but is it because shields count as a additional hp bar that allows supports to invest more in offensive stats
It’s actually because how much you heal doesn’t matter if you just get one shot. Mitigation is best in this game
Star Rail is not souls game, if you find a unit too strong don't get them
@@MystraThat's a terrible comparison.
In souls people literally choose the most OP weapons to beat the game easily, and people who want a challenge use weapons they just enjoy
HSR is a gacha game, if you love a character but don't like how they play then it can be annoying
Also it's not about any particular character, its about that healing is just worse than shields, and they should be more equal
@@joaosantos-uj9uw Fu Xuan and Aventurine are the prime example of this
@@Mystra That's the problem - HSR forces you to, because of the way enemy stats keep getting inflated
The thing is that there are no alternatives that already exist. You mentioned taunt but realistically how many bosses use single target attack as their big stronk? Maybe Lofu's monke, a couple of centaurs, Hoolay and that's about it. Aventurine does aoe, Kafka does aoe, Phantylia- aoe, Dragon does...something, Sam aoe as well.
Taunt is simply isnt good enough in turn based game. The moment the enemy has AoE attack, it become worthless. In action or tab target games, at least you can stay away from other allies
We can absorb and counter buddy
@@shutup1037 That is literally what I said
I just hope healers can keep up with Aventurine. Like an artifact set that can increase defense or max HP of allies when healed. You can’t not have a reviving feature in the game and then make the enemies so strong that they kill the allies before they have a chance to react.
Boothill also has a taunt as part of his skill, so that makes three playable characters instead of two.
And march's shield can also taunt for the chosen ally
@@procastinatedso can Lynx with her skill
March and Lynx don’t taunt though. They increase a character's aggro number, but taunt is a debuff that *guarantees* hits.
@@eddiemate almost the same thing in practice
@@mrartezi2667 play tingyun with blade and an aggro increaser and you'll find out it's really not lol
I’ve had this worry about Aventurine for awhile now so I’m glad I wasn’t the only one to disagree on how they handle his kit. Honestly your suggestion where you give up a turn to basically just block is something I hope they introduce to this game. Turn based are already linear by nature so I don’t see why they have implemented some sort of.. guard that gains no SP just so we can survive a boss nuke
In your opinion would you say pulling Aventurine flattens the difficulty for most accounts that have him?
Why? Because they want to sell shield character. Not just that, the gap between Nihility debuffer vs Harmony is just crazy
Even though I love my aventurine I realized overtime the flaw of shields and why it’s hard to counter, if all they do is up the damage to get past it then abundance units aren’t as viable.
The only way I can think of balancing it is having future enemies counter shields in some aspect to have units like abundance be more attractive. Like 20% of the damage goes through shields.
I personally just think it’s kinda boring that you just turn off your brain with preservation units and hope there’s content that helps with that. Aventurine has way too much uptime on his shields.
I just want to actually have to worry about dying in harder content besides simulated universe lol but that’s just my weird opinion
It might be unpopular, but I think introducing evasion mechanics could mix things up a little. Most turn-based RPGs (SMT, Persona, Pokemon, Digimon, etc.) have some form of accuracy and evasion stat. A Preservation unit that sets up an evasion veil or a Nihility unit that debuffs enemy accuracy. They can also tune it so we can't just abuse evasion too, some attacks can be unavoidable, setting a limit on how much this stat can be manipulated, there's plenty of ways of doing it.
Seriously. And the thing is, HSR players seem so vehemently against accuracy/evasion because they think the game will become too hard if your opponent can dodge attacks
And yea, setting a limit to your evasion that comes from pure stats alone is a good start
@@kichiroumitsurugi4363 it is a little silly to think that your average Cloud Knight would be able land a hit on people like Yanqing and Feixiao.
Also, I think they could make abilities work with evasion too. Like how Yunli has to get hit for her to counter, they could re-work Yanqing so every time he dodges, he'll launch his follow-up
@@anguyen4576 Srsly
That's the thing. All this game care about is buffing your damage thanks to the limit cycles in endgame modes
Genshin had the same "problem" and they made enemies who could bypass the shields, they will probably do the same here, making healers a must for one or two rotations
That's definitely an route I could see them going down, honestly I'm surprised they haven't yet
@@fl2ur we're still in version 2 which is aventurine shield meta. they'll maybe add enemies that can bypass shields in version 3.0 and beyond.
@@lancertheimaginary8462That's the main reason I'm holding off on pulling Adventurine. Because I already have FX. And if Hoyo goes this route, she will become more valuable than him.
the only way I see hsr making healers relevant again is if they release a character like Furina or introduce enemies that can ignore shields 😭aven and fuxuan are way more comfortable to use atm
A hsr Furina is the right way to revive both blade/jingliu and abundance value
@@Matiaspanralladothis would help so many characters I wish it could happen
I think the best way to do it is make abundance give extra utility. aventurine and fx give some crit, yes, but huohuo energy regen + er and Gallagher's insane toughness bar nuking and SP generation provide much more (as stated by the video)
So, preservation = keeping team alive easily
Abundance = keeping team alive a little worse, but also with utility. I find myself using gal over aven because of the utility he provides
In Genshin it works bc you can still dodge boss attacks, but imangine HSR Furina draining your HP before a boss attack and you don’t have heal and can’t dodge
@@danusorn8655 hp drain + max hp buff. fixes/helps blade and aids the draining issue
noticed you forgot the option of "lower the enemies attack or dmg dealt"
while it is present in the game, it's highly regulated in available access to players
since only Gallagher's Enhanced Basic, Silverwolf's talent (rng), Jiaoqiu's talent with E4and Huohuo's technique (2 turns only at start of battle) are the only ATK down reductions available to the player, and their effectiveness is extremely limited
or like... Natasha's Technique being a 30% damage dealt debuff but only last the first enemy turn...
as for team buffs that reduce damage taken... there are only 3 I know of: fire MC's skill lasting only 1 turn (15%), bailu's A6 trace making invigorated party members take 10% less damage and Fu Xuan's Talent giving 18% reduction to the whole team
when a shield is able to give in many cases 50% to even 100% or more eHP. In order for damage reduction effects to have equal in overall eHP effectiveness they would have to scale up to like 25%~50% to be on equal footing, and they simply don't match up
atk and damage reductions could be expanded to be much more effective and in the right kit could become a staple for future meta or semi-meta comps
just depends if Hoyo wants to acts on it or not
That's definitely an option hoyo has if they wanted to go down that route. That could even be a way for debuffers to have more relevance as pseudo sustainers instead of just action delay like what comes from Welt.
The problem is all this game care about is buffing team damage, or reduce enemy resistance.
A healer whose skill heals but whose ult gives one instance of block or dodge to the team could be really fun to play, as you'd have to time the ult in order to nullify damage. Something like that could be satisfying without being insanely overpowered maybe
I really second this, a dodge mechanic or other mitigation would be great points of decision on the player and in general just offers another way of supporting.
@@SpoopsAHoy And I feel like dodging should have been an actual thing from the start. But it isn't, so now Hoyo can freely drain wallets by slapping it on a specific character
@@kichiroumitsurugi4363 Yeah, It would be really nice if they made occasional gameplay updates and/or redesigned severely underperforming characters. Alas, money says otherwise.
From someone who uses starter characters against story enemies and bosses, the preservation problem shows itself like the Kool-Aid man. I only have March 7th and Fire Trailblazer as my only means of defending my team without pulling from the gacha. My only healers I can use are back broken Natasha, Lynx (her e2 is kinda wack now that enemies can spam numerous ailments lol), and Gallagher. At some point these characters will die eventually due to enemies that have 500 SPD and numerous turns if not by my boredom of using the same characters to keep my team alive kek
Other than Bailu and E2 FX, if HSR release an Abundance char that revives with X no. turns cooldown then Abundance might have a higher edge over Preservation char. Right now Aventurine dominates all endgame contents and Su/DU
However if Hp drain mechanic becomes much more meta then healers might have higher value than Shield char.
I really do wish there was a "fortify" option for a turn action.
It should cost 0 skill points, but also doesn't generate a skill point.
I wish I could play without sustain characters sometimes, but those big boss attacks make it actually impossible without 0 cycling them.
But... but... if you can do that you won't roll for new shielder character 😭😭
I want to see a turn based game where the combat is like you would expect, but the defense is reliant on timing enemy attacks to block them. That would be epic!
There actually is a more recently released game like this called "Sea of Stars". The story was just okay but the combat was interesting.
@@fl2ur sounds cool!
Try the game "Worldless" I enjoyed it and it is turn based
@@_ceann yooo! Looks epic, thanks!
Shields are fine, lemme enjoy this playstyle
You do that but when its the only viable option then its a issue
You say that like you can't enjoy the playstle if shields aren't fine
I believe there is a blessing that delays enemies turn when you do flow up attack, its very useful with feixiao
imagine if to balance shields they just made it so that you can't get energy from getting hit lol
They only need to create enemies that can pierce shields.
Is pretty common in most of RPGs
@@Yawar25new rifthound enemy
You've played a warrior tank in WoW before, haven't you?
@@Yawar25 Pierce passives in SMT be like
i wish hsr would fix their shielding problem just like genshin did, they perfectly balanced shields there to the point where its really just a preference if you want a healer or a shielder.
first they added rifthounds that completly ignore shields
then they added furina that rewards you for bringing a healer and thats insanely good
and then they made sure that healers provide a lot more than shielders (avarage healer in genshin provides way more than an avarage healer in hsr)
and ofc lets not forget the amount of hp scalling damage dealer they added such as neuvilette that make suriviving way easier
i know that its not a fully great comparision because one is a turn based game and the second is life action game that lets you dodge all the enemy damage, but still the actions hoyo made against shields in genshin is something id really want in hsr
Dot damage ignores sheilds, problem fixed
Hoyo really messed up by power creeping sustain so early on. There’s 2 whole paths dedicated to them, and as long as you can keep the team alive it’s almost always worth investing into other characters rather than pulling for sustains. Also taunt can’t really be a viable tanking option due to the sheer number of enemies that attack your whole team or 3 members. Lastly a ton of people brought up overheal as a future mechanic, and while that feels inevitable they can also make a preservation unit that provides team shield similar to the boss mechanic at the end of penacony
I agree with all of your poitns, they are all FACTS! Its wild how with all these CC's nobody made a video fully dedicated to this. Youve earned my sub bro 🔥🔥🔥👏🏻
A couple months ago I was brainstorming some ways they could branch out sustains beyond just healing and shielding. Like, we see Aven basically deals damage scaling off Def despite being a shielder, so why not make a Preservation unit who actually works as a DPS by absorbing team shields? There's a DU equation that does that already iirc, which also makes a team-wide shield form (similar to how Sunday's boss battle gives your team a shield).
Another avenue of sustain is to buff max HP then share HP among the team. Its like an inverse of Fu Xuan where instead of one taking most of the damage, everyone shares the damage. Of course, this means the risk of a team wipe is present but it also means any healing benefits everyone at the same time. It doesn't have to stop at this but its MHY's job to create and implement new ideas and right now we're basically just retreading ground but in limited rarity.
Tl;DR Aventurine is so broken its insane.
I'd like to see a guard mechanic, and it'd be like they take half of all dmg (DoT or enemy DMG) done to them until their next turn but costs a skill point so you have to play around it and your sustain so they can act before they die. And/or to make Abundence a better option to Preservation in the future since it's pretty one sided, they could introduce true dmg or a penetration type enemy which chews through shields faster than HP. And the other way around too for another enemy or gamemode, where shields are tougher to take that dmg and do much more dmg to HP if they wanted to balance it out and have themselves, just spitballing but i'd love to see either of these implemented cuz that'd bring.
It should just cost 0 skill points and generate 0 skill points. 1 skill point is extremely expensive for damage reduction on a single character (just consider what an abundance/preservation can do with that skill point instead).
@@1987jjl I mean I'd prefer it to but there should be a cost besides just skipping their turn for something that is relatively OP (if they make it worth while, if not then it should be 0-0) imo
A big help would be giving defensive capabilities to abundance characters. Whenever I bring an abundance character I feel like I open myself up for random one-shots from the enemy, which resulted in me usually always running either Fu Xuan or Aventurine, and in most cases both for the two teams in MoC and AS. At this point in time I completely avoid abundance characters, even though I own Huo Huo and Gallagher
The game itself has a problem because it doesn't value healing and shielding in different ways. Basically both do the same thing (sustain) but because shielders prevent damage overall they're just basically better. The game should adjust enemy stats (more damage less health to fit in a team comp where both healing AND shielding are important but still clearable with just one support) , and some mechanics (like say, some attacks dealing more damage to shields).
One of my favourite unit archetypes in gaming is dodge tank. They are unexplored but very fun (and rng)
Imagine a character that grants like 80% dodge to the entire party while dealing significant damage themselves bc they don't need to build defensive stats. And ult can be similar to Yunli's - guaranteed taunt and block
Hoyo toyed with the idea on early Aven, but it was dropped in favor of trusty old shields, as dodge being chance based means you can't really guarantee that next big hit wouldn't wipe half your team.
The way I would've done it is to make a buff that makes next X hits do 0 damage, with some minor healing in between. Aeons know that chance-based mechanics can already be annoying, doubly so when applied to survivability.
Although the archetype is really damn fun, I agree. In Darkest Dungeon, one of more fun and simultaneously effective strategies is spamming dodge buffs/accuracy debuffs with Antiquarian/Man-at-Arms, bringing enemy hit chances to hilariously abysmal ~30%. Makes it look like your heroes beat up some defenseless eldrich horrors to take their lunch money
the problem is that there's way to stop the enemy's big attack unless you break, freeze, imprison or entangle them and you have no way of timing such things to occur so you'll always have to be prepared for a big nuke
Pretty chill for a rant.
But I've already noticed this since early days that most units don't get pass the bare minimum survivability for last floor MoC if they are not maxed. Even Tingyun had to compensate some ATK to HP/DEF (not sure if that's still the standard today, but I still rock that 'compensated' build).
Fu Xuan definitely failed the Swarm Disaster test -a content released at the same time on her release-. She died on difficulty V when the phase 3 swarm do their AoE attack and Fu Xuan was in full health. I can attest my team would survive better against this AoE attack with Fire TB with his skill active (-15% dmg reduction to all allies).
Then comes Aventurine that pretty much block your team from having HP any less than 100% on almost every content. Because if there's chance that to happen, the team will become lack in damage if they swap out 1 unit for another healer.
I feel this is intentional bad balancing keep on 2nd year.... along with The Hunt as a path. There's no actual good content tailored for the Hunt unit. Something like something goes really bad if you don't control your spread damage.
Taunt mechanic is useless when the monster decides to bombard your whole team within one attack
maybe giving the player 3 or 2 new buttons would be great aswell. One button to guard so that characters can mitigate 20%-50% of incomming dmg while being skill point neutral (what ever % is the most balanced) and another skill for each character that does something else. Heck, nihility or abundance dmg down debuffs aswell, while making one preservatie that plays a bit more with defense stat of other characters.
Crazy that revive and guard mechanics haven't be implemented into HSR yet.
Revive already exists with Bailu since the game launched.
@@sylthfarn3187Issue is that it’s available for only 1 death per battle, revive would have been better if it was happening more often
@@marfaleon7025all this game care about is showing off new harmony or new dps for big numbers
healer's honest reaction when they hit tingyun 4 times in a row:
Its honestly an Aventurine problem. With gepard, his issue is very noticeable in fast teams where you run out of his shield before he can get enough turns to get them back again.
With fuxuan her damage reduction is solid and with her lc yeah majority of content can't kill your teammate but without lc you definitely can run into situation where enemy just ignores her aggro enough that your other units end up dying.
Aventurine you just outright dont take any damage with his shield and he refresh them crazy fast
It sucks that aventurine is the best sustain on so many teams, and high difficulty simulated universe modes basically require him in order to survive their insane damage hits. Huohuo + FuXuan isn't enough to keep you alive in the hardest modes unless you get perfect blessings or equations.
Consequences of having a single skill button
They need to add multiple types of Sustains beyond shielding and healing. What if you were able to dodge certain attacks or they go all in on delaying enemies (Like Welt but as a general mechanic). Having a general block button for every character can help as well (Sorta like PR Trailblazer).
I think Hsr focuses disproportionately on Offense instead of Defense including enemies not really pushing your team to the limit to create that need to defend.
agree, I hope Hoyo is going to approve this in the next HSR plans
My take on what they could do is use the “Nullify” buff they have in that one curio in SU; which is kind of what you said about the one turn invulnerability skill.
I mean the way I see it so long as your effective defensive stats (hp, def and other dmg mitigation) are above the oneshot range then healing is better than shielding although just slightly. It becomes how many of these hp a unit can pump out. Since shields can't stack indefinitely (yes they can stack on top of eachother but each char has their limits in the talent) and neither can hp they're equivalent in that regard and the only difference is that shields have a duration but that rarely comes into play (except in gepard's case). If we start both units on 1 hp the healer will 100% it and shielder will put a shield, doesn't matter if rhe healers side drops down to 20% since they'll just heal back up, same as the shielder "healing" their shield. You can say that shielders have a one time use extra hp bar since once you take health dmg with a shielder there is no way to regen that health.
It's also unfair to say healers use skill points and shielders don't, it depends on a unit. Both Luocha and Aventurine can run without any sp consumed and both Huohuo and Fu (or march if you care for a shielder) must use sp.
And I absolutely think the one thing he just glosses over is the difference of what makes some units op in hsr, things they do in addition to sustain. Pretty much every abundance/preservation char can sustain if they and the team are properly built. The extra things they do is what gives them their value.
Before watching the video, i Will say Fu Xuan really suffer in SU. The damage she needs to support sometimes IS just overwelming.
Also, i hate that the enemies resistance bar gets bigger and bigger. I understand for bosses like the crystal T-rex, but some others do not deserve that much resistance.
Just happened to finish a Div Uni 8 run Vs Argenti yesterday before stumbling across this vid and ended up with a Robin that could provide shields from her Skill and Ult and a Jade that could heal from her Ult while Himeko and Acheron were managing timely breaks. I was just very confused at the absurd range of utility from my makeshift support sustains xD
A problem regarding skill expression in the game is that , ova there is no need for that(from hoyo perspective) like , you don't compete with anyone, and it does not matter if u 0 cicle or 10 cicle moc for example . Imo it would be so cool to have things like that , more skill expression , more ways to play out the game. And unfortunately , the bigest problem right now is that the combat is way to straight forroword besides sp management there is no skill involved. Maybe with 3.0 we will get something.
there's only so much skill expression you can have in a gacha since what they want the most is to sell you characters, it all comes down to build your team right and done, most of the "skill" part is done outside of combat, (speed tuning, rotation planning, placement and stuff)
It's a turn based gacha game. There's only so much skill issue before it converts into a build issue.
Maybe a Better Bailu
since Bailu healing buffs give damage reduction and heals on taking damage but if with bigger numbers maybe.
Me who cabt clear swarm 3 despite having a full firefly team, does good damage but dies
The only thing I don't like about shields is that it's very anti synergistic with Blade, one of my favorite characters.
I'm considering pulling for a third Promocional Sustain just for that 😅
2:07
there's a flaw with this statement, not all shielders can provide infinite shields with little to no sp cost, only aventurine can
other preservation units takes way more sp than your average healers to maintain their shields, shielders generally are required to constantly sink dp into keeping their shields up all the time as they cant heal and cant risk losing actual hp, while healers dont need to heal unless necessary, hence using less sp
tldr: shields give higher effective total hp but require constant sp investment, healing have less effective hp but doesn't need to use sp unless necessary
until hyv introduced fx and aven and completely broke this balance
i put both a healer and a shielder in my teams (Luocha and Aventurine) i can confirm it makes your team basically untouchable
I assume we're talking about sim world torturous (Gears realistically because divergent 8 is far more generous and way less punishing) a lot of other survivability tools exist damage split blessings, fu xuan, def bonus, actual max hp bonus, reduced damage taken. To clear that high end content usually it's about 2 things. Reaching a survivability threshold, and then having a way to sustain either with a healer or with things like heal on ult, heal on follow up, heal on skill point use, etc. The thing that actually then pushes the bosses in most cases to a point where they can kill you IS time/turncount because a lot of these bosses have stacking buffs with no cap, which then when combined with said finishing move just delete you. Enemy delay and speed become very important because of this so they don't scale out of control and you finish the fight in a timely manner. /my opinion.
Overall a really good Video youve earmed my Sub. The Problem i have in General is the Balancing. Its hard to compare HSR with your Average Single Player Turn Based RPG cause the balancing is by far not competable due to the Gacha Aspect.
The thing about Abundance characters is that they are only good at recovering health or cleansing your team and not preventing you from getting one shot. They do not have defensive ability to keep your team members from getting one shotted. All of 5 star Preservation units have inbuilt defensive utility in their kit. Gepard with the increased taunt value, Fu Xuan with the damage redirection to herself and Aventurine with the refreshable shields with his Follow Up Attack. Compare that with Abundance characters that only heal you. I remember dying to the Yanqing bossfight early on because he kept one shotting my team so instead I used Gepard and was able to clear the fight.
The fortify idea is actually really good
Imagine a timing mechanic where you have to press a button that acts as a dodge at the right time of an enemy attack, and the damage can go to the character with the most health or the sustain character
I dont know if this mechanic would be fun or not tho
It may be unrelatable, but my built sustains don't provide shields and I don't really have sustain problems unless I am deep in Simulated Universe endgame (Like Swarm Disaster or Golden gears). Apocaliptic Shadow can sometimes be problematic in that regard.
Unless new enemies appear that ignore shields, Aventurine a any future sustain character that provides shields will be preferred over healers most of the time. I do agree that a character that provides stackable shields that block a single instance of damage provides a solution for certain enemies.
This is more a problem to weak characters from hunt and erudition and ones from Nihility. Normally Supports, destruction doesn't have defense problems so Abundance is pretty good but it's not like that you need abundance, most the times is just for the kit synergy.
I'm not sure if I *really* agree with this. Aventurine specifically is very broken and FX is very good, but the other shield characters are very niche. Several Abundance units also *don't* actually have to spend SP (or very rarely, but that happens with shielders as well) to heal up your team. Luocha and Gallagher can keep the team alive by basically just basic attacking and ulting, Huohuo only has to refresh her skill every 2 (or 3 if you have E1) turns, but I would barely consider that a downside considering her crazy utility on her ult and her auto-cleanse every turn. Shields vs heals only becomes an issue (imo) in the higher difficulty SU and DU modes, where enemies will just 1-shot you sometimes.
I think the thing that would make it to where healers shine over preservation units is to lean more on status infliction from enemies. Crowd control or Dots that wear down at shields, but make it to where healers shine (except Bailu) due to being able to cleanse off bad status. In the worst case give enemies cleanse.
I personally think Aventurine is violently overtuned, and while Fu xuan is pretty busted as well I at least feel like she can be worn down.
Shields in general with 90-100% uptime is mistake. Unless, They're hard counters like True damage or something. It's broken as mechanic.
I literally borrowed my friend aventurine and forgot Feixiao weekly deals a lot of damage.
This is probably why actual challenging games like Elden Ring/Black Myth try to limit their defensive utility as much as possible.
In case of Gachas, The closest is WW but they do exist. It only has certain condition but it's not as easy Zhongli/Aventurine
where you can reapply it in short amount of time. (This could change since they have to powercreep current shielders)
I believe healers gain more relevance with destruction characters. If they release more chunky DPS who can withstand 1 shot like Blade and Firefly, or a DPS that can increase his Max hp with overflow healing and his dmg is full hp based that will make healers like Luocha that heals a metric ton come back to the meta.
Thr only way i can think of to balance shields is to release units that whilst aren't as powerful defences as Fu Xuan or aventurine have Secondary purposes that arent pure defence or for example to release a 5star that creates a new team role beyond support, Healer, Tank, DPS, and Sub DPS.
For example a role like support DPS where the characters has a good attack multiplier but low attack stats because their purpose isn't to act as a second dps but to act as a support DPS not just dealing damage but buffing your own units to a smaller degree then harmony, for example imagine a support dps who enhances toughness break (specifically the effects that happen when the break bar breaks) with a lot of Bonus ability trace buffs that are Dependent on team construction that could for example provide 10% of their Unbuffed Speed to everyone in party, and then to round outnthe support their light coje rather then giving them stronger buffs to make them into a harmony, or attack to make them ijto a full DPS, instead gives them something like whenever using skill grant party a shield equal to 60% Defence, and then give the unit something in the realm of 2000 base defence so with their light cone they become a preservation unit whilst having the ability to act as a 4star dps and Harmony role simultaneously (specifically this is a rough explanation of a kit for a theoretical Order Unit Focusing on Crowd control, defending(with light cone) and buffing the team and even if they don't act as the best unit in any role thie shear utility makes them pretty much usable in any team just for their lightcones shielding on a full DPS abulty even if they cant beat aventurines shields their attack buffs mean thwt even with aventurine you can use the two in the same party (specifically i imagined their unique Debuff as a dual Imaginary quantum pseudo weakness implant and that upon being weakness broken they take one stack of imprisonment and entanglement simultaneously effectively meaning they act as a nuke to enemies moving if you can weakness break them but their talent prevents them from being used in Apocalyptic shadow to full effect ("whenever an enemy is weakness broken whilst possessing threads of Order they Regenerate toughness bar equal to the amount of threads as a %×10 then remove one stack of Thread of Order from the enemy"
(so if they have 3 stacks of threads the enemy including bosses regenerates 30% toughness whilst remaining action delayed, entangled and imprisoned))
Also their skill applies single target action delay (the threads of order constricting the enemies movements based on all afflicted with the threads)
7:58 slapping in random unit and pressing auto mode
I think preservation should be the best sustains, and abundance is a mix between preservation and harmony (huohuo is a great example)
If you check persona (the game that HSR got their inspiration from) , you have multiple ways of defending yourself
For example: 1: you have a chance to dodge an attack and perform a Follow up
2: performing certain types of heals that increases your max HP
3: blocking certain types of damages depending on what persona your unit wields
4: using certain types of items that prevents you from getting one shotted
5: dealing critical damages or weakness attack results in action forward
6: ordering one unit to form a defensive position and block all the incoming attacks
7: improving your defense greatly by combining certain types of skills
8: some enemies can pierce through your shield so you can use your knowledge of what type of damage the enemy does and perform Special counter attacks or dodge (dodging happens randomly) in order to get action forward or block the attack in order to prevent your team from dying
And many other ways that I don't remember
Have you ever played an RPG that wasn't Persona or Star Rail before? Because more or less all of these mechanics predate Persona.
@@tsf9600 dragon age inquisition - the elder scrolls Skyrim (I know this ones aren't turn based but I was talking about Turn based combat) and yes I love Persona since I've grown up playing it
@@Nilouhara Fair, I just wanted to point out that HSR has literally hundreds of references to draw inspiration from, and from a design perspective Persona isn't really one of them, or at least not enough to consider it a main inspiration; Persona *itself* is a spin-off of the SMT franchise and drew inspiration from it when designing its battle system.
They could probably fix the shielder problem with 4* preservation units. Maybe a 4* who only casts small shield that are designed to be broken, healing teammates while damaging enemies with a follow-up attack.There's all kinds of good ideas that can be used on preservation characters, but making them 5*s would be blatent powercreep, but putting them on 4* characters could easily solve the issue as they would more buff existing characters than be a powerhouse themself.
Gold and Gears was really difficult on my account because of the lack of shield users I have, there is one face die that makes it so you can't be damaged beyond a certain % of hp allowing you to not get chokeslammed for not pulling Aventurine or Fu Xuan. Honestly if healers had that going for them then it would at least open up some options since end game content is just "can you survive this HP check or can you kill this enemy fast enough to not get killed in one shot."
I think part of the problem is also DPS units lie Firefly being jsut too good. Ennemies had to get faster otherwise a lot of them get stun locked or outright killed before they even act, so we end up with the Boisin and Hoolay being super fast to act before our dps can kill them and super strong to compensate for Aventurine and Fu Xuan.
On top of that, the problem is made worse by the gaccha aspect, we cannot easily retool our team for a fight, theres a lot of character I do not own and I cannot easily on a dime change their relic and relic stats to compensate for a boss' specific requirements
Shielding is excellent and they’re quite a few enemies that have the abilities to do defense ignore and I’m sure you’re going to see that more in the future to mitigate shielding
I think the best way to nerf preservation is to have enemies that pierce shields. Not like 2.3 Zhongli "we do damage through the shield" type enemies, but rather enemies that can hit through part of the shield, like maybe half the damage hits the actual shield while the rest does damage to health, and making it so the scaling increases on the shield, so they can't easily one shot teammate if you're running a healer
I think this game need some kind of new way to interact with the battle that don't rely on your characters turn, think it like the SU path skills but for the Endgame modes and more personalized. You could choose to give a character a barrier or a taunt, delay/freeze a single enemy, maybe increase a character's ultimate gauge by 20% for that clutch Gepard shield right before a boss recks you, just a type of resource that you really needs to think about when to use it, how to use it and what to use similar to how other turn base RPGs handle skills with cooldowns 'cause as you said it, there's not much skill expression on the current game.
This is why i always preach shields over heals. Shields dont have a limit but healing is capped to the max hp of your target character
a character like march hunt or jade but they buff and take hits for you would be interesting
Lets be real: the only think that mihoyo will do is an indirect nerfs with enemy that prevent win condition: Shields are too strong? Lets add an enemy that ignore it(and add a new 5* sustainer that prevent it) Break Team to strong? Lets add an enemy that cant be break. FUatk are too strong? Lets add an enemy that punish for attacking him too much, and etc(debuff imune enemy to ruin Acheron)
5:48 Also i just notice why is "skip turn" ins't an option? I cant count how much my Jingliu had to waste her stance charge in Aventurine "is all or nothing" stage
Healers could get more use if:
1.) DOT dealt more damage to shields.
2.) Some enemies can pierce through shields
3.)They have some sort of damage reduction
4.) Accumulate healing into damage
It's almost impossible to clear advanced levels of divergent universe without a shielder. I don't have one, I'm this close 🤏 to spend all of my jades just to get a Geppard because I'm not patient enough to wait for either Fu Xuan or Aventurine reruns. The hell even if I had 4 star preservation characters I would be happy.
If even in genshin where they don't care to much they were able to bypass the mechanics of op shields, I am certainly that the team in hsr can do it as well, all they need to do is give true damage to enemies, or poison type dmg that bypasses shields
I feel like dance dance dance and harmonies are a bigger issue than this take. Sustains really only play a role in du and su. wind set and ddd shows use sustain is just slowing damage down unless you have like e6 adventurine
Well, we have barriers that block all incoming damage once and revival mechanics, both already in the game but heavely underutilized.
The problem is that although this mechanics allow a much more engaging and "smart" gameplay, they by far overshadow both healing and shields as they essentially mean one turn invulnerability. Introducing them into a meta would be a terrible power creep, much more than any other so far. The overheal may is basically the same, although it's probably easier to balance.
My guess is that we will have a turn-denial meta at some point as it will allow more characters stay relevant for a longer time and fits the current trend (summons and follow-ups).
Biggest issue is enemy damage being too high to a point where shields are required(or fuxuan cuz she s broken).They need to make healers maybe overheal,all of them,maybe introduce an artifact set that convers 50%overheal into shield which i would argue will buff all other healers.Make limited sustainers maybe bring in a lot of goodies for a niche and keep the overheal for all healers,maybe also buff all shielders to give support buffs instead?.Well thats my 2cents on this.
while i agree shields are generally better than healing in HSR, so long as either healing or shields work in content like MOC, PF, and AS, i don't really see a problem. healing allows you to keep your units at full HP while shielding lets you tank bigger hits even when you aren't full. you mention how a unit with barely any HP could still last so long as they have a shield, but the same is true if that unit was just healed. moreover, if your shield was low, you'd still need to refresh it (taking the same resources as a healer). i think the issue is just that aventurine specifically is just the strongest sustain in the game rn, so shields seem better. no one talked about shields when the best unit we had for them was gepard, bc shielding along isn't enough to make a sustain great.
as for sim u, there are enough ways to get shields (and other sustain options) through the blessings that i don't see it as an issue there either. obviously it can feel bad to need to get those sustain cards over damage ones, but the enemy stats are so inflated in sim u that of course going in with no strategy won't go well. the new healing overflow > shield curio seems like a sign that hoyo knows that if they increase enemy dmg, they need to keep healers functional and new options will be created for that
@theseventhsheep9724 Hey thanks for the comment!
My real concern(if you could call it that, this is mostly just a discussion video) is that the only two preservation characters released are definitely a level above most other units in terms of keeping your team alive - aventurine rarely has to skill in most content + fu xuan is fu xuan, compared to huohuo who needs to be skilling often to keep her passive healing active & refresh her ult.
It might feel like aventurine is an outlier, but what happens when the inevitable next preservation releases with a kit just as strong or stronger than theirs?
Agreed on the aim universe point, there's definitely options and hopefully hoyo does move in the right direction there with the healing blessings/curios
@@fl2ur i can definitely see your point, i just wonder how much of the issue you see right now is coming from the specific units we have at the moment. you mention huohuo, but one of her limitations has always been that her healing isn't massive, so i feel like she isn't the best example of a healer. luocha (while far from perfect as a unit) is still a super comfy healer with his talent heal + frequent heals on teammate attacks. when comparing him to aven and fuxuan, unless you have 2300 hp teammates, i don't see any big difference. of course, in those cases where you have super squishy supports, a shielder would be nice, but basically every support except maybe tingyun and robin can give their full value with an HP/DEF body/orb.
i guess we'll have to see with new enemies, but even then with at least the next boss in hoolay, he feels designed more for lingsha than any future shielder
@@theseventhsheep9724Hoolay actually is perfect for aventurine with frequent AOE atks.
@@hypemaddox yes, aven is def good against him, i was more using him as an example since lingsha will also be great against him, showing how both healers and shielders can have good match ups
@@theseventhsheep9724 Lingsha suffers in that fight simply cause she isn't fast enough to keep up with Hoolay if he enters the bloodthirsty state (Her emergency heal trigger is high enough you can easily waste and without ult you are pretty much screwed)
Remember when in 2.1 in genshin we ditch Kokomi because of Zhongli shield? Yea and an meta shift makes healers so much better.
5:23 erm actually, Boothill can do that too 🤓☝️
my bad haha forgot that one 😂
erm... Clara?
@@kusumtiwari7748Clara only raise her Aggro level, not straight up Taunt
I like to compare turn based games to Golden Sun or Paper Mario.
Your concept of adding another mechanic to block instead of attacking would make the game less one dimensional 100% i can get behind this idea. Its in paper mario and golden sun.
When hsr first came out and i noticed there was only one skill and an ult i had a feeling something like this might happen. Hoyo either needs to slow down on characters to disable the immense power creep and add another more basic skill to all characters(similar to the defend mechanic) or change certain aspects of the game. It aint gonna be an easy feat.
I completely agree with your statement of them pigeon holing themselves. They for sure have. Itll be difficult to get themselves out of it. And adding arbitrary difficulty to fights just wont be it either. Some big adjustment will need to be made.
Im kinda glad i dont have aventurine. After witnessing his shields i feel like it would trivialize so much content. Im pulling lingsha for my fua team, shes also cute, and she heals. Worth.
The biggest issue here is that its a gacha game. They want us to pull for characters, etc. But in any normal turn based game, you either grind for new skills or unlock power on your own to complete the difficult content.
I pray hoyo figures something out. Maybe 3.0 will introduce a rework of mechanics to the game. I pray..
It seems Hoyoverse is trying to make Abundance characters more desirable especially for FuA teams as Lingsha who is coming up soon has her Fu Yuan summon that goes into the turn rotation and as a special perks where every 2 turn if an ally drops below 60% HP then Fu Yuan’s action immediately advances forward and heals/cleanses the party while dealing AOE damage. This could be seen as an overkill of healing due to both Fu Yuan and Lingsha doing AOE healing but considering if you’re pairing her with someone like Jade then you realize that she’s supposed to help someone like her.
The one complaint that i have with this is that you said "chose to bring (abundance unit) instead of (preservation unit) some people may have lost their aventurine and fu xuan 50/50's or just didnt have enough jades. So they are stuck using gallagher and lynx
thinking about how i wouldve dropped the game if i didnt get fu xuan. no sustain was getting me through any of the game modes and gepard is abhorrent
I am literally using gg and gepard since i dont have any limited sustains.
the problem with adding more mechanics is that hsr is game made for both more competitive players that want to get in the weeds and more casual players, while adding more options would make the game more fun for competitive players it would reduce the casual player experience and make the game more complex for them possibly driving a lot of them away. For this reason I don't think anything will change like this because they want to straddle the line and keep both audiences.
The thing is, sustains are not in the party to actually sustain. It was their main goal at the start of the game, but Hoyo don't advertise new ones for this reason nor do you pull for new characters just because you can't survive endgame. Well, at least not after you've already pulled 2 limited ones. The further into the game we go, the more they will become enablers for different team archetypes, just like Aventurine is for FUA and Lingsha/Gallagher is for break, and HuoHuo is for hypercarry. Expect sustains designed for different archetypes (DOT, debuffs, self-buffing DPS, HP manipulation DPS, potential new mechanics like Dissociation for mono-Ice teams) and expect Harmonies and DPSs that sinergy specifically with kits of certain sustains. Just like in Genshin you don't pull for Baizhu or Kokomi, or Xianyun just because you need heals, you pull them to enhance or even make possible certain team types.
So, in that sense the difference between shielding and healing doesn't matter. If Hoyo wants you to run certain teams in current endgame, they also know which sustains work for these teams and tune enemies accordingly. As for SU, it certainly caters to specific characters much more, which is frustrating when it's a top-tier shielder like Aventurine, but - every new SU has different blessings and devs are free to rebalance them at any time. They can remove stacking of shields completely and stack overheals instead. It won't change the way characters work, but, hillariously, will turn this whole situation upside down without adding new buttons to battle interface or smth.
Fuxuan and Aventurine is pretty broken in general. Adding another preservation with survival focused unit would slowly break the game balance.
The only reason why Abundance get used is mostly because their extra debuff or buff but that still doesn't hold candle when it comes to extreme difficulty such as DU/SU where having more heal doesn't mean a damn thing as enemies could delete your 5k-8k HP in just 1 turn. But a shield somehow able to negate this completely which makes preservation path inherently broken and unbeatable compared to the Abundance path that crippled by the heal limit/damage.
The appearance of Fuxuan that able to negate most of the attack to herself and still giving some buff to players with the following Aventurine that literally fit into FuA team that also is the strongest team in the games makes me think that the preservation path is beyond repair and probably only get worse by powercreep. Next probably should be along dot preservation, or break preservation lmao.