Skepticism & Spirituality in the Martial Arts, with Matt Thornton (better quality)
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- Опубліковано 21 лют 2012
- A better quality version of the lecture given on 2/21/2012 at PSU by SBG Founder and BJJ black belt Matt Thornton on the topics of Aliveness, skepticism and spirituality in the martial arts. The video features a ten minute talk, followed by an extensive question and answer period.
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"Majority of people come in and say they want to train, because they want to learn self defense. What they mean by self defense is confidence." - That's a brilliant and very wise insight.
Great talk, good to hear this was mentioned on Joe's podcast... my favorite people continue to come together.
Always a pleasure listing to this guys take on martial arts
Always good to hear this, over and over again, :-)
This gratifying to see. I have absolutely zero interest in what the best method of brawling is, but I always knew Hollywood style martial arts was mere choreographed fantasy, and never believed for one second that any human being could break a brick with his hand.
Good to see someone stating (what should be) the obvious in public.
Matt, this is fantastic. Thank you for sharing it!
Great video, great speaker! Thanks for posting!
I've been a karate student for over five years, so I do know what i'm talking about Holdek. This guy giving the talk is absolutely right. Everything he says is true about the traditional arts not working in realistic situations, and in my opinion he isn't trying to spin a web that's gonna get people to take BJJ. I also wrestle competatively, so I know what works and what doesn't
It's funny, SBG is like a block away from where I ended up getting a job when I moved to Portland, which would have been easy to go to. But I'm super happy with Portland Thai Boxing downtown, by where I live. Two great schools, and good for hard training!
I think the key point to remember is that all martial arts have different focus and aims. Some are spiritually oriented, sport oriented or self-defense based. It all depends on what philosophy or learning you are trying to get out of it. It really depends on the individual when he/she masters the concept of what they are learning. Different schools have different concepts, while some teach peace, the other teach you how to fight with it. Not all karate, bjj or other MA dojos are the same.
@HeyFreethinker Matt Thornton writes: I agree we need all three ranges-stand up, clinch and ground-for self-defense; and, in general, we want to avoid going to the ground in a fight. However, the best way to ensure that you will end up on the ground is to never train there in the first place.
some time ago Denis Hanover, the founder of the Denis Survival jujitsu, which is a mix of kyokushin karate, jujitsu, judo and krav maga, gave an interview to a local magazine. in that interview he told about a student of his in the name of Roei Horowitz, Roei was with a friend when both were attacked by to terrorists armed with knives. Roei managed to disarm the terrorists and saved the lives of both himself and his friend's. Roei was 14 years old then and weighted 40kg.
@MiksterVid i's say with good reason, if you go strictly style vs style it wins most often.
No matter what the art; if ur opponent lands a golden BB you r done, if ur taught to punch & kick air, then you have no idea of the application of force, if you are not taught how to assess the situation and read body language to basically size up the opponent, then over confidence & ignorance have already beat u & the opponent just finishes u off. Philosophy of any art is to survive as far as metaphysical abilities its only a psychological game (BLUFF). Supernatural power, reserved for deitie !
I agree, sparring is a training method and is far from real fighting as well as kata, but my point is that if you are comparing the two training methods and deciding which one is more effective, sparring and live work is much more beneficial to someone who wishes to be prepared for a fight. Both live and choreographed work are flawed methods of training, but of the two, live is infinitely better (for someone who has that goal). Choreographed training simply will not prepare you for live conflict
@MiksterVid i don't think it's a confusion. i think be believes that you can learn all of the reflexes, muscle memory etc. in live training just as well as kata or what not. to be clear they do progressive resistance at his gym so you do usually get a small amount of time with almost no resistance.
@mojothemigo, I couldnt agree more!
He has many correct points. It is too bad that there are too many people who are exactly doing what he says, and Traditional Martial Arts seems weak and unrealistic. Only a very few have taken the Traditional Martial Arts to the right degree of training and smart enough to use it right. If someone doesn't take the art to the fullest extreme of understanding forms, sparing... are exactly what he is talking about. Take an intelligent person who has trained correctly and they'll talk about the strength of mentality, knowledge of physics, breath... can truly do the amazing things that seem fake. And the people who do show, usually have an ego problem and fail miserably.
prove it
@SoulOfThunder Small-join manipulation was allowed in early UFC and Vale Tudo fights. It didn't make a huge difference in how the fights played out. The problem with small joint manipulation is it can't be trained with aliveness as fingers break too easily. I don't know what you mean by "breaking techniques" (or how armbars or heel hooks aren't considered breaking techniques), but they're most likely not banned as few things are. No style can reliably beat more than one person.
The video he refers to is included in the Sam Harris article called "The Pleasures of Drowning"
If anybody knows the preceding video to which they're referring to, could you post a link? Thanks!
I did tell him what I was doing. I said in another post after this eye gouging isn't a magic weapon. Just one more little thing you have to be aware of. I LOVE grappling. The most fun I ever have in class, I think my mind and boddy are more made for it then punching/kicking. I would crosstrain in BJJ if I had the time and money.
What is the video that played beforehand that he references?
@AmplerPlateau probably this, look up ki master vs mma
I'm curious how Matt Thornton and his collaborators view some of the classical bujutsu's of Japan, as well as more militaristic modern styles such as Systema and Krav Maga.
GSP and Lyoto do more boxing training than any other form of striking. You can also see that in theirs fights; very rarely you will see Lyoto executing a yako-suki punch and I've never seen GSP doing similar stuff unless he is doing a staged demonstration. In the end, when it comes down to business they do what it works.
There's also the tendency within the Brazilian Jiu-Jistu world of having a, shall we say, *elevated* opinion of its capacity vs. that of other martial arts.
@atlanticplace
I can't really speak for them, but I would speculate they would like the styles that incorporate randori or sparring.
If you follow martial arts history (as I do), you'll find that alive training didn't begin with Judo. Jigoro Kano noted that there were several old styles that practiced randori before Judo. It just wasn't a widespread practice. Kano was smart enough to notice that that styles that incorporated randori worked better. That really was the birth of Judo.
I would not put off the fighters or their styles, it is a lot of the meathead fans that all too wrongly think there are no guiding moral philosophies to the training. There is a character limit to how much I can post, but I wish I was allowed to comment that I think that grappling is legit means of self defense, and helps make a wellrounded fighter. Just specific things off the matt that might pose a problem.
@joergus Yeah, that is exactly what is said in the quite I put there :) And I wholeheartedly agree. The comment was a reply to "it maybe so in MMA, but teh street is different" logical fallacy.
Thank you for your reply... though I don't believe it actually addresses the numbers I posted. :(
@Donatellangelo Best. Observation. Ever.
@straightblastgym Sir
Has Mr. Thornton come to Japan and trained in such styles as Kyokushin Karate極真空手 or Ashihara Sabaki Karate 芦原捌き空手 or even Uechi Ryu Karate上地流空手? Karate has Jissen Kumite実戦組手： free style sparring with no protective gear; Jiyu Kumite自由組手： free style sparring, these types of sparring have no set forms but are designed to help one with fighting. The founder of BJJ and his older brother trained in Judo柔道 from a Japanese Judoka柔道家 did they not?
hmm... very informative!
@BrianKGarver nobody thinks that anymore,including the gracie academy,theyve said so many times.What they do say is that bjj is all you need for self defense and thats true but quite a dangerous option given that you are tying yourself up with 1 person
Except that an attacker wont do a single step and then attack, they'll most likely throw one big punch and then several more in the clinch range, while grabbing your collar or other piece of clothing. A technical strike will be more effective, yes, but you'll have to be able to pull of that strike in a full contact spar as well. Just doing one step sparring isn't going to do squat for you in an actual fight.
Matt praises Judo. And any art that's generally trained alive like kyokushin karate, unfortunately kyokushin is only one style of karate whereas the majority of styles don't use the same training methodology as kyokushin. Aliveness doesn't mean just sparring - it's a training methodology. It also means training drills that mimick the resistance that you will face from an uncooperative and unchoreographed opponent. Check out the vid; Training and the I method, in the side bar.
@Noppatoppa
Matt Thronton doesn´t advocate NOT training on the ground for self defense. He means that you have to know the ground (which means you train a functional deliverystems like brazilian jiu jitsu (BJJ) ) to be able to avoid the ground. You can´t destroy what you can´t create. And if you can´t grapple, you can´t "antigrapple". Look at Chuck Lidell. He´s a very very good wrestler, and that´s why he can keep himself standing against toplevel grapplers.
Valid question. I do Karate because it gives me self control and peace. I have absolutely no interest in fighting anyone, ever.
Traditional Martial Arts have only spiritual and physical value, in my opinion.
What's wrong with my math? He says average for a black belt is 10-12 years, attending 2-3 times a week, but makes the statement that it requires about 10,000 hours of training. Let's say you put 5 hours a week towards training, so that's 5 hours x 52 weeks = 260 hours per year. Now, 260 x 12 years = 3120 hours total... where's he getting this 10,000 hours from???
If anyone here wants to prove to themselves that what Moosh50 is saying is true, just go ahead and wrestle or fight in mma. You will see that there is only one way to prepare yourself for full speed confrontations, and that is to train at full speed.
Lyoto Machida
He didn't really mean for it to be an attack on all Karate styles, I think. My first "real" style was Kyokusin and we knocked each other around pretty hard! That's the kind of thinking he supports, not so much the name. As long as it is trained against real resisting opponents and adapts to what is effective he supports it.
I agree with this mostly, but I think he's missed out a key point of how judo promoted aliveness. Kano removed all of the throws jujitsu taught deemed too dangerous. For argument's sake let's assume that these were handed down from the samurai and were known to actually work on the battlefield. By removing them though, you're able to practice moves that are safe with a mat and break falls. So you can concentrate on them and bet better at them even when training at full resistance.
Some valid points, but he confuses the sort of training one does to learn the basic movements, to build one's reflexes and muscle memory, vs. randori or unstructured practice against realistic attack.
Sir
I have trained in Karate in Japan I am here in Japan now. What Mr. Thornton is saying in this video about Karate just does not make sense.Karate has Maai間合い：relevent time and space plus distance of two or more combatants. When a Karateka is doing a demonstration that is what they are doing, the focus is on the waza or technique. They are not wanting to hurt the other person so the other person is going with the flow of the waza and he should know that. My skepticism is what is he promoting?
We must understand that he can say things that we agree and disagree on and determine the value of his statements with our own experiences without devaluing either his or our own opinions. Perception IS an illusion. We can respect these views. If we become fundamentalist to defend our own beliefs we lose the capability to grow and learn.
Joe Rogan! brought me here!
@1KoDaK1 jkd isnt a trad martial art,its anti traditional.There are no forms,no dead drills,its basically mma whe they spar but has some set fundamental skills like strong side forward and trapping etc
in a real fight that is
Links by Sam Harris are really good.
Except that training a in a dead pattern against a compliant opponent isn't going to do you any good. You might become more familiar with the block, but you'll never be able to apply the rest of the techniques. That's why you need to drill the block first, then try to use it in a spar. Once you got that down you can start working on counters. Besides, dead training doesn't improve your reflexes since you're not reacting with reflexes, it's all coreographed.
Okay.
Well, thousands of years of history prove otherwise.
Shawn, i don't think Matt is basing his assessment of TMA on whether the school or teacher was good or bad, his argument is, that because of the overall methodology employed in training by all TMA's, it will never translate into the endeavor its being trained for ... in this case, fighting or unarmed combat (taking martial art at its most literal definition) Thus any benefits that stem from a flawed foundation, physical or otherwise, tend to be contrived and disingenuous at best
Denis told that he gave Roei his black belt right after that event. I think its a shame that people will miss on great combat techniques that might save their lives one day just because they listen to people who claim it is fantasy. by the way , I am not trying to disrespect matt or anything, but I do think he is terribly wrong.
You don't much about Aikido or TKD either I guess.
D Curtis Sir
Traditional Martial Arts & MMA
(from a Japanese Martial Arts view)
戦国時代 or Warring States time period of feudal Japan (15th-17th century) was when the Samurai 侍 would prefect their warring arts on the battlefield for almost 200 years. 侍の武術 or the Samurai's Warring Arts/Martial Arts showed which techniques were sound and which ones were not, if they were not sound the Samurai would die with their bad technique(s) on these bloody battlefields.
明治時代 or Meiji time period (1868-1912) would see the end of the Shogun将軍 and his 幕府 Bakufu gov't. The Samurai侍 would lose their status and posion within this new gov't of Japan. But the Warring Arts had been a part of the Japanese culture for nearly a millennium and even with the fall of the Samurai侍 Martial Arts would still play a part in the Japanese culture.武道 or the Martial Way or Path (using the Warring Arts tradition;techniques;metaphysical and cultural traits of Japan to build a stronger person) would replace the Warring Arts. The 1960s would see スポーツ武道 or Sports Martial Arts(limited Martial Arts techniques used in sporting matches) become popular. This would be about the same time US GI's would be coming home from the War in Vietnam. The 1980s would see キックボクシング or Kickboxing become popular and by the 1990s MMA( the use of limited techniques from many forms of Martial Arts with the major goal to win a sporting match). 武術 or the Warring Arts of Japan such as:剣術(Kenjutsu);居合術(Iaijutsu);弓術(Kyujutsu);薙刀(Naginata) all were and still are deadly arts that have no place in a MMA sporting ring. The UFC, Pride, K-1; Strikeforce are not the litmus test for what are effective Martial Arts but how some of the 武道の技 or Martial Way's techniques can be used for sport.
Some valid points, but he's evidently never trained with an Aikidoka/Cheng Hsin practitioner worth a damn if he is of this opinion.
Holdek, it's very unnecessary to dislike all my comments. I assumed we could have a discussion without negative emotions getting in the way. The fact is, traditional martial arts, TKD especially, are not effective in violent confrontations. This is because of the choreographed practicing. I know this for a fact because of my experience. I understand you're offended that you're practice has been... challenged. And remember, religion has survived thousands of years, and are those theories proven?
@sbgipdx We hit eachother (gloves, ungloves slaps) and grapple in my Krav Maga class. Our instructors poo-poo "dead" sparring. Don't know for a fact if you are saying that isn't the case in what you saw, but that is how we train in our classes.
There is one huge problem in grappling that isn't covered in tournaments and that is eye gouging. I am not a good fighter at all, but as I was grappling with one indivual and far more experienced student, I was curiouse and instead of grappling back I was tapping above his eye. I was able to tap above his eye for a good couple of seconds before being pryed out of position. I don't have anything against this guy, great vid. I'm just saying there are things outside of the MMA ring that might work
University... and a 10 year old schoolboy can understand it.
Joe Rogan brought me here.
I study shotokan karate, all we do is fight training, sparing drills, and so on. We don't do stunt fighting or made up fight crap. I do agree a lot of karate is fake. But that's American karate.
Here come the cult TMA defenders.
Train your martial art alive without ridiculous acrobatic moves, and your art will work. Technique on a cooperative opponent, application on an uncooperative opponent. End Debate.
@LaurinoJ ...that video is just ridiculous!
"Alive." Wow you should copyright that idea. Resisting opponent? Free sparring? It's a shame generations of martial artists didn't think to incorporate those novel ideas into their practice. You, sir, are a modern-day Leonardo DaVinci. ::eye roll::
+1 Sam Harris
mma n bj focuses on singular attacks not mass attacks. These people have alot of nerve to come on here and say that traditional martial arts is a bunch of crap. A true Martial Artist knows to keep an open mind, to remain limitless. I can honestley say that every art has limitations, thats why an open minded martial artist will use anything that works, an bj have some things that karate dosn't, and karate has some things that boxing dosnt and vise versa
With respect, any martial art worth its salt should be fight applicable, and trained as such. To generalize traditional martial arts as the wrong way of training, then promptly dismissing them as impractical, takes away from the traditional martial artists that can fight.
I am a Krav Mega and JKD practitioner n instructor, and what I can say about this vid, is that its wrong and its right. Its wrong because if your in the street with thugs that have u cornered, and have no other choice but to fight than ur dead if u think that bj or just boxing is going to save ur life!
Fights are not choreographed. In order to be prepared for a random violent confrontation, one needs to have trained in random violent confrontations, like a wrestling match, or sparring in boxing, or grappling in BJJ. If you tried to teach a wrestler wrestling by choreographing the wrestling match he would get his ass kicked. You go LIVE. Traditional martial arts are not the textbook of fighting, they are outdated. The traditional martial are to their time what the MMA are to ours.
WHY people think braziliam jujitsu or thai boxing is the best i been doing kung fu and shorinji kempo for 3 years the training is great i also attend to an mix martial arts gym to prove myself how capable iam and the way i see it is that kung fu works great when comes to fight but in MMA youfight with their rules is not an open fight where you can poke their eyes or brake a leg in a real fight an MMA fighter will be dead kung fu silat kempo karate they were killing arts war arts martial arts no
I disagree with about 90% of what he said about karate he has a view of some one who doesn't understand Kata and forms.
The mistake he makes in the first few minutes is that MMA has RULES . There are many techniques you can't use. You can't use small joint manipulation and certainly no breaking techniques in MMA. That leaves out 99% of the techniques available. Sport forms (kick boxing and wrasslin') are what make up the "MMA styles". Discounting "classical" martial arts is to do so at your own peril. Try "grapplin" in a real fight and see what happens. Real fights are never one on one in this day and age.
He makes great points, I just think he was unfortunate in the traditional schools he saw practice. I don`t need to defend my art, but most of this seems like he just stumbled upon bad teachers.
There's no emotions on my part. I dislike your comments because they are factually incorrect.
Your comparison of TKD, which was invented for combat use by the Korean military and has been tested by experience, to religion, which admits to being faith based, is another silly comment.
ok, this guy isn't an expert. obviously. silat, panantukan, pukulan, judo, and kung fu all use resistance training. and man, anyone who know just a little silat could wipe the floor with any MMA dude.
he is wrong about about karate having no resistance training, some clubs yes but others no, clearly he has never done karate for long. i have been knocked out twice in karate lessons, plus the bruises to prove i am getting hit,. sure in karate you teach the punch for demo purposes, it to learn the technique, same in aikido et al , what is the point of beating your opponent so bad they cannot come back again, its pure rubbish. I have seen and took part in sparring matches, at clubs and they can be dam full contact, i have been hit in the head, punched, and i mean punched in way that can dam hurt. Also i have been kicked on the hand by mistake and boy my hand and arm vibrated so badly it, i started slow and then it went dead for a few 30 mins. karate is a distance art, its designed for hitting quick and running quick, not staying there. MMA is designed to close the space down, no escape allowed, u have to fight, knowing that either you do not have much space to move or get away u must fight in an area where you know if you miss you are going down, much like in a street fight but in a controlled manner, however it gets unreal when majority of MMA fights end up on the ground. You not want to end up on the ground in a real fight.
+Mulberry2000 most people don't want to end up on a ground in a fight. also the person in this vid didnt say ALL karate schools have no resistance training. He is talking about most schools in the U.S most likely. Your statements about the difference between MMA and karate seem sound. also just because you, like me, have been hurt or knocked out in karate doesnt negate the fact that most schools are based in choreography as opposed to aliveness.
Well, maybe if knew that you were trying to simulate an eye gouge, he would have made a greater effort to control you and be defensive instead of just wondering why this random dude is tapping his forehead.. Since you admit to a big disparity in your skill and experience, he probably wasn't even trying very hard in the first place, since nobody learns anything in a spar in which the more advanced student just steamrolls the newb.
Sam Harris brought me here.
Good talk. I love the flannel but that beard needs work.
This is a pretty good talk, but Thornton completely runs out of his depth when he starts talking about traditional Chinese medicine as a fallacy. Acupuncture and Chinese herbology have a very strong research foundation at this point, including many hundreds of herbs that are not rhino horn. He is also mistaken about the traditional use of rhino horn, it's not an aphrodisiac, but used for very high fevers. Acupuncture and herbs astragalus, ginseng have reams of data on safe, effective use.
tachi isao machii must be a fake.
Others have commented here more in detail. But this dude obviously doesn't know much about Aikido, TKD, etc, and is just using the "aliveness" schtick to promote BJJ.
Go back to your kata's and board breaking.
If you buy in to what this guy is saying, then why are you still screwing around with karate?
Sorry, that doesn't wash.
Superstition? Such as your scientific materialism? Stick to martial arts Matt. We don't need your jejune 'philosophical' opinions.