When only one person is speaking, it's not a conversation, it's a monologue. This is one of those subjects that people tread carefully around, lest they get cancelled. By his own admission, Konstantin didn't know much about the topic, so he couldn't disagree even if he wanted to. A more appropriate title would be: "One person's perspective."
@@josephmassaro It is a conversation, while on this extract Melanie Philipps is the one mainly speaking. Francis and Konstantin let her speak, but if you had watched the whole episode, you'll have seen that it's not the case all along the hour of podcast. She is making them learned the truth about the history of Israêl!
@@legolindirteso9430 "Making them learn" doesn't sound like a conversation to me. And it's this 18 minute segment that was posted, by them, as a "conversation." Call it what it is, a monologue. It's not a matter of whether she is right or wrong. That is immaterial. It's what they're calling this segment that I take issue with.
She's mud-raking back 1500 years.. Those types deserve to be invaded... oh wait, they're all like that, these ULTRA CONSERVATIVE NUTJOBS... I have no sympathy for supremacist religions such as the Abrahamic religions.
@paulsmith7579 yet another ignoramus not bothering to seek out any truths. After being harassed out of my home in Newham by muslims with NO support from left councillors etc I decided to research the truth. You have been suckered in by the guardianistas the bbc and the rest of the dishonest mainstream media
The UK and US did not model themselves after ancient Israel, but rather Ancient Greece. From their governmental systems, to their architecture, and many things in between, Ancient Greece was a major inspiration and influence.
Primarily from Rome. Rome had the senate, a republic, separate executive branch (the consuls), etc. Rome had elections of tribunes and the like (a bicameral legislature, in effect).
I don't know who's right in this conflict, but I do think that "we were here first so it's ours to go back to" seems like a crap justification unless you're going to apply that to literally every people who had their land taken/conquered.
Which other people are you comparing it to though? Which other nation/religion, particularly of biblical age and proportion, is stranded and dispersed without a land to go to?
@stellar7089 No, he said we can hope and pray. That is not nothing, even if you believe to be ineffective, as I tend to do since I am an agnostic atheist.
Want to know why? Because it's just a tribal land dispute. That's it. There are **ONLY** biased takes. And it boils down to which tribe you identify with.
@@itssteve6018 I 'identify' with the 'tribe' that is democratic, progressive, enlightened, and is a major global power in science, research, medicine, tech, and education! And a 'tribe' that doesn't endorse 10-year old girls marrying 30-year old men, and throwing gay people off of buildings!
There isn't a single sliver of land on this earth that hasn't been taken from previous owners by someone else leveraging an advantage. Before man took ownership they were fighting back animals for territory. We seem to be tragically stuck in a perpetual loop from the actions of long dead people combined with texts written thousands of years ago that purport to offer the believers a better way of life. Yet here we still are with the innocents of the world dying and grieving wishing they could just go about their lives and be kind to one another and be left in peace. We can but dream.
You are right, humans and their existence have always overlapped the previous, in some way. About a hundred or so thousand years ago there were around 5 different varieties of hominoids, including homo sapiens, then the others disappeared, or were probably eliminated, in my view. Homo sapiens have proven to be ruthless, brutal and often violent, being the last one left to dominate the planet today. Nature and life will always seek to occupy space where opportunity exists, humans are no different. Kindness would be nice, but history tells another story.
Controversy isn't the issue here. It's phrasing historical events to favour your point of view9which I'm about to do), especially the decision to start with "well Jews were the first and rightful owners of the land" .. oh really? Well the Canaanites were the original people of the land According to the Hebrew Bible, the Jewish patriarch Abraham is said to have migrated to Canaan, and his descendants, including the famous figures of Isaac and Jacob, became associated with the land.
Facts? Ok here you go: Israel has occupied Palestinian land in contravention of international law; they have blockaded Palestinian territory in contravention of international law; they have built and enlarged settlements in contravention of international law; enforced an apartheid system that strips Palestinians of the most basic Civic and human rights, and they have also targeted and killed and injured civilians on a mass scale for decades. And the response of the western world at this time is what? Israel has a right to defend itself. Well what exactly does that mean? That they can cut off food? That they can cut off the power? That they can cut off water? (In violation of the Geneva Convention); That they can force the displacement of over a million citizens in what has been described by Non Governmental Organizations and United Nations representatives on the ground as an open-air prison."
Palestinians were invented in mid 1960. Just Ukrainians were invented in the 19th century by the Austro-Hungarian empire to divide the Russian people and then Ukraine was invented by Lenin. Former Ukraine is Russia 🇷🇺
Some things have scant detail. A bit tired of this. 7-hour blackout on the security, hangliders and not rockets, please, no drones in the Israeli army?
I can't wrap my head around this - I've seen historians from both sides giving rather precise, convincing yet opposite accounts of this matter. I'm no historian, no scholar, thus I am just ignorant on the Palestine/ Israel issue.. I can only pray for the innocent civilians on both sides, and that's about it.
Lying by omission is still lying. You need to learn that a lie can actually be 100% true. It is called a lie of omission. A historian can still be a liar, even if they never sated a single false thing and is being 100% accurate. The lie is formed by what they left out.
you know in your heart that's not true my love, you know for a fact palestines have been mercilessly abused by the isrealis for decades, you're just to scared to admit it to yourself or you would have to care about them
It is insane how she can just say ‘there is no such thing as Palestinians’. Russians also say there is no such thing as Ukrainians. In all these mess, I only feel bad for the innocent lives lost and suffering, while these ‘smarty pants’ keep spewing nonsense. Such rhetoric won’t bring a resolution.
I don't understand the argument that Group A owned this land and they are the only rightful owners of it regardless of Group B, C, D, and F having logically equal claim to it. All while the entire argument seems to ignore that Group A claimed that land from someone at some time prior to the creation of any Jewish kingdom so doesn't whoever that was have an even more logical claim using the original argument? We essentially don't tolerate this logic anywhere else so why is it tolerated here or should the United States give itself over to the descendents of indigenous population?
Is there in your view any other group MORE entitled to this land than the Israelis? Don´t forget how many times they have offered to abstain from large territories for a Palestinian state.
@@oller7113 it doesn't really matter if I identify any particular group. That is entirely besides the point as far as the logic is concerned. A better question is can you determine any logically consistent reason why the occupants of the geographic area prior to the Jewish Kingdoms do not have more claim to the area?
I love your show and this was one of the most important interviews! Thanks to the amazing Melanie Phillips it's clear that if you don't know your history a false narrative can rise and convince the entire world of a complete lie.
I feel like there's no part of her that wants to remotely understand the other side. Its thinking like this that makes peace impossible. Konstantin makes a great point, it doesn't matter what your heritage is - when its generations removed. You can't force people out of their homes because you have a historical tie to the land... its a tinder box of an ideology and not a way forward. Everyone has ties to everywhere in the remote past.
correct. it's a similar thinking that demands reparations from me to a historically oppressed population for sins committed by people with a similar skin pigmentation to mine.
What about the people of different pigmentation, who carried out the same acts of slavery. Barbarians begot the enslavement of "lesser" people. Nothing to do with race. It happened for thousands of years. America is the Greatest country in the world, bcuz of the idea, idea(l)'s, enshrined into our bill of rights/ rights given to oppose an overreaching guuebment based on a model set forth by the constitution. An individual is "free" to govern their lives, they're not subjugated to the whims of the elite class. The problem is subversion and comfort. If we want to stay "free" we need to educate ourselves to the games played against us.
Would this woman subscribe to the notion that Britain for instance would have the right to expel everyone that could not trace their lineage back to say 10BC.
There was a chance up until Iran told hamas to start this war. Saudi Arabia was very close to signing the abramaic accords which would have normalized the relationsip between Israel and them. Where Saudi go the arab world follow.
@@DanielWijk You are 100% correct. I remember a few years ago there was very nearly a two state solution and a solid road map for peace on the table. Things were looking great for the first time in decades. Sadly Yasaaraft buckled to the pressure of those war mongering mad and insane ayatollahs in Iran. Iran is ipulling all the strings in the ME.
here's one for you - send everyone that claims to either be "palestinian" or "israeli" back to their precious land and let them all sort their own shit out. Not our problem. btw, you can be of Palesitinian or Arab origin, or Jewish ancestry and still live in our country - just don't try claiming all that previous bullshit. You left that behind when you moved here. Much the same as I have Italian ancestry - I'm not walking around wearing an Italian flag and going "Hey, watsamattayou?"
I love Melanie Philips. She is a woman of integrity and speaks the truth. I always learn something from her. She is absolutely right about the Jewish presence in Palestine long for the creation of Islam or Muslims rose to power in the M.E.
That has nothing to do with anything. So what about 2000 plus years ago. You talk about religion, what about ethnicity? The Lebanese have proven to be the closest to the Canaanites so do they have a claim? People move over time, religious conversations, pro-creation with other ethnicities and so on. You do not then have a claim 2000 years later. The land had inhabitants who had been there centuries, that is the fact. Those inhabitants were massacred and driven into refugee status by invading europeans, that is a fact. Those inhabitants are still oppressed to this day.
@@KX-12345 Those 'inhabitants' massacred the Jews repeatedly, starting in 1834, culminating in widespread ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population in August 1929.
I don't think the UK and US modelled themselves on Ancient Israel? Alfred the Great - modelled on a fusion of Roman and Christian values I'd guess? Then Magna Carta, which was not modelled on Israel (or perhaps anything else), but in and of itself formed the rough template of the rule of Law for the medieval age and influenced the genuis of the US constitution (US based on UK and Rome)
It’s a half truth. It came out of what is known as British Israeliism. Where wealthy upper class types in Britain who were obsessed with biblical stories tried to link biblical events geographically to Britain and suggest that Britain actually was Israel. This then led somewhat indirectly to the push for the foundation of a Jewish homeland and the popularity of the Zionist movement.
Well, the notion of an anointed king second only to the Abrahamic god was first a Jewish concept. That same concept is at the root of (historical) English common law, and manifests itself through several doctrines (e.g. royal prerogative; “the king can do no wrong” etc.). There are obviously many many differences between the English model and the ancient Jewish kingdom of antiquity. But I think that’s what she is talking about.
The entire world improved because of the American idea. The first country to put the liberty of the individual as the most fundamental aspect. Without it, you'd have no freedom to speak what you just said. There would be no free trade around the world because the US made the seas safe. For centuries the people of the world have recognized this and made the US the #1 destination for immigration. There is no singular "the native Americans", they were all fighting each other constantly and committed some of the most abominable and gruesome acts against each other before Europeans arrived. A peaceful utopian coexistence it was not. Which of the other 200+ nations carved out nations inside their own borders for those they displaced? Which other nation had creeks and rivers run red with the blood of white soldiers who sacrificed themselves to end slavery? The UK abolished slavery very shortly before the US, so we weren't the first but they didn't have much to abolish by comparison. Everything above is a fact. The world is in decline because the US is in decline and orders of elite hyper-weathy wish for our destruction so they can take all the power, control and resources. "You'll own nothing and be happy" they say and deluded, misguided and ignorant people go along with it.
How she describes the Bedouin etc people of Palestine- "having no nation, not being a collective identity" - is exactly describing the Aboriginal people of Australia pre colonisation. Be careful the arguments you make - justification for one group is condemnation for another.
In America the Cherokee did have a "Nation", and created a written language. When President Jackson wanted to move them out of Georgia, the Cherokee Nation took their case to the Supreme Court and won. Jackson moved them out anyway.
The point is Bedouins didn't even consider themselves "Palestinian". It's an invented term to culturally appropriate the ancestral homeland of the Jews.
Palestinians didn't demand a state until after 1967. Before the resistance was to get back land for Jordan. The area was Greater Syria under British. And yes many people were semi nomadic and fully nomadic. Incl the borders of Saudi Arabia and Iraq too. If you visit the region the bedouins explain how they moved between large regions in very recent history. Its not inaccurate
It's.a bit yes and no Bear in mind that our notion of sovereign nation state with well defined boundaries as mean to organise our affairs wasnt universal and relatively recent invention based out of Westphalia system One effect of colonisation was to hammer that notion on many people who didn't think of themselves as one ppl and who didn't use to organise things along that line
What got left out of the conversation is that the Jews *_bought_* land when they returned to the land of Israel. When you buy land, that isn’t “kicking” someone out of their home. The creation of a country, and people’s individual homes, are two different things. Thats why millions of Arabs live in Israel. Their individual homes are Palestinian land in a Jewish country. Just like the home of a Palestinian Brit is Palestinian land in a British country. Many Palestinians however fled Israel to get out of the way of the Arab countries that invaded Israel in 1948. That isn’t Israel kicking anyone out of anything.
If I were to follow this logic, then Belgium (I am just taking an example now, being Belgian) urgently needs to adjust its borders. The entire north of present-day France and the south of the Netherlands belonged to the people of the original Belgians in Gaul. Later, from 20 B.C. to the 5th century, Gallia Belgica ("Belgian Gaul") was a province of the Roman Empire in the northeastern part of Roman Gaul, in what today is mostly northern France, Belgium and Luxembourg, along with parts of the Netherlands and Germany. Should we reclaim that territory?
I felt she became highly defensive when Kisin challenged her after the mid way mark. I also disagree with her statement that 'the Jews were there first so it should belong to them'. Read some European history lady, most of Europe had different 'owners' as it were throughout history. Here in Canada, according to her reasoning, we should return ALL land to the Indigenous, if they ask / demand it...? . It came across to me that I think she is biased. (big time).
And, according to her logic, she should be kicked out her house in the UK to make way for the descendants of the ancient Britons - the Welsh, Corniche, etc.
And indigenous Native Americans should rise up and take back their land to kick out the white msn who stole their land and placed them on reservations. Her logic
Briliiant. Clear and understandable. I learned more in 10 minutes listening to her than years of 'bits and pieces' and half-facts. Sharing this with friends. Thanks.
That was an excellent explanation from the Jewish point of view. Would it be possible to have a guest with a point of view from the Palestinian side, just for fairness.
This is where it began .. islam attacking Jews and Christians, continues today and until Islam dominates the world كتاب الجهاد والسير32 The Book of Jihad and Expeditions (21)Chapter: Expulsion of Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula(21) باب إِخْرَاجِ الْيَهُودِ وَالنَّصَارَى مِنْ جَزِيرَةِ الْعَرَبِ It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. وَحَدَّثَنِي زُهَيْرُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، حَدَّثَنَا الضَّحَّاكُ بْنُ مَخْلَدٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، ح وَحَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ رَافِعٍ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لَهُ - حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ جُرَيْجٍ، أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو الزُّبَيْرِ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ جَابِرَ بْنَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، يَقُولُ أَخْبَرَنِي عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ " لأُخْرِجَنَّ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى مِنْ جَزِيرَةِ الْعَرَبِ حَتَّى لاَ أَدَعَ إِلاَّ مُسْلِمًا " .
Elias Chaccour wrote in Blood Brothers that villages were seized by the IDF early on after the foundation of Israel. These days there are many good things in Israel but through the settlements Israel is taking more and more territory. The Hamas attack makes things massively worse and of course Israel will fight back hard.
ahahah what an absurd comment, the original inhabitants of that land even before judaism was created were Semitic and Arab tribes, so the proto palestinians of today were already in the land from the beginning.
@@truth-uncensored2426 Careful. Even the Arabs claim Arabs began their existence after the arrival of Abraham. On the other hand, the coastal areas (Phonecia, Philistia) were populated by "The Sea Peoples" whose origins were outside of the area.
One minute she says "Palestine" was invented by the Romans @3:40, then she says there was no Palestine until it was invented in the 1960s @11:15. Maybe I'm not drunk enough to understand this.
Palestine was renamed by the romans but there were no peoples called Palestinians. Ottoman Turks ruled for the majority post millennium, bar the 7th century (I think), and after World War One the League of Nations gave Britain the land.
@@garygranato9164the land was dubbed “Palestine” by the romans as an insult to the Jews. The name comes from Philistines, the ancient enemy of the Jewish kingdom from antiquity. It would be like naming Seoul “Tokyo”, which would be extremely offensive to a Korean. In contrast, the Palestinian “nation” is a vert recent invention. It’s the difference between the piece of land, called Palestine for centuries, and the grouping of people called Palestinians. Those are not the same, and did not arise at the same moment. I hope this clarifies what she was saying.
Melanie Phillips is totally right. There is antisemitism on the left. I decided to get involved in the anti-war (Iraq) cause during the Bush/Blair invasion and was shocked by some of the remarks I came across and the double standards involved in this. She's also right that if you're arguing purely from historicity, the Jewish people have a superior claim. I was surprised by how many people in Ireland, where the vast majority had a religious-based education when I was growing up, couldn't acknowledge this, as it's inherent in Judeo-Christian tradition. That said, I do have massive sympathy for the Palestinians, caught in the middle between Hamas and Israel, just trying to go about their lives. Conditions in Gaza are unacceptable. But it's possible to recognize this without engaging in anti-semitic rhetoric that distorts history.
Semitic people or Semites is an obsolete term for an ethnic, cultural or racial group associated with people of the Middle East, including Arabs, Jews, Akkadians, and Phoenicians.. Zionists have utilized propaganda and manipulation to lump all Jewish people together in their zionist group, which any Jews with ethics/morals reject outright. Generally anyone considered "antisemetic" or claims it today, actually means they are against zionism.. Israeli government puts Jewish people all over the world at risk. If there were a Christian apartheid state that had been settling illegally into a country they were literally controlling the water supply too etc, and having boasted about it basically being a concentration camp, while funding the radical terrorists since 2005... I wonder.. pretty sure if they tried lumping in Christians in with them and their ideology it would not fly, and people would recognize the truth of the situation much clearer.
She gave herself away by misrepresnting his argument as soon as she spoke it literally took seconds. She added the whole "had no connection to". Nobody said that. Better to argue against that than the whole balfour declaration bit eh.
Not only that, her assertion that the Jewish nation back then were the same people as today's Jews is asinine. Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews from Europe have a small portion of their ancient Levantine heritage from that region. They are heavily admixed with European and Turkic ancestry. It would be like the very mixed Hispanics of Latin America claiming rights to Spain while ignoring their native American and even African heritage.
And the kicker being that the father of political Zionism, who pushed for a Jewish "ethno" state, European Theodor Herzl, was an ATHEIST who had contempt for religious Jews. So a God he didnt even believe in, "promissed" him and his other white supremacist friends, that land. 🙄
That's why they split it between the 2 people's that lived there. Jordan - Muslim administered, Israel - Jewish administered. 20% of Israel's population is Muslim. They serve in Israel's government. Name 1 Muslim country in the region with a large Jewish population or Jews in their government. No of course not, but Israel is uniquely evil.
In UK, the Kingdom of Israel only applies to the Coronation. Everything else, is modelled today on the Roman Republic, where before Cromwell, it was modelled on the Roman Empire. I also find her comments on how the British responded to her, and the parallels with Maori in both the UK, and NZ. In the past, they said the exact same comments that she mentioned here. Just switch the term Jew for Maori, and you have the idea. With NZ entering an election in few days, it is worrying to see the right pedalling the same here in NZ in the open that was said to her in a conversation.
"They were a people in a particular area of land, which they governed according to laws they made... and they defended." She claims that, for this reason, the British and American systems are modelled on Israel. It describes practically every country throughout history. It's so vague as to be utterly meaningless.
I think you might want to consider Christianity’s roots in Judaism before dismissing that comment. The notion of an anointed king second only to the abrahamic god was first a Jewish concept. Fundamental principles of English common law (transplanted to the colonies) flow from that, and other aspects of abrahamic law.
Uk is a christian nation , christianity is an offshoot of Judaism and holds many of the same tenets so the comment is made on the christian ideology, and in that frame she is correct, you misunderstand her.
That's incredibly stupid. Desire to do something is not the same as one's ability to see it through. Just because the Palestinian Arabs haven't been able to wipe out all of the Jews does not mean they have no desire to do so. They've repeatedly made that sentiment clear, and their recent actions (and plenty others before that) very thoroughly demonstrate their intentions. Israel is certainly far from innocent of wrongdoing, and I don't like many of the ways they've treated their neighbors, but they actually have the power to completely wipe them off the map and have thus far refrained from doing so, and unlike the Palestinian Arabs (or at least Hamas, whose rise I will point out was partially backed and funded by Israel to beat tue PLO whom they considered a greater threat, ironically enough), Israel actually attempts to warn civilians of impending attack to minimize civilian cashalties. Regardless of how you look at this, this is not a bad guys versus good guys scenario. Like most wars, it's bad guys versus worse guys (I'll leave you to decide for yourself who is which) with good and bad reasons for grievance and the countless piles of innocent dead bodies from both sides in the wake of the endless violence and chaos.
The only reason a single Palestinian remains in Palestine is because of pressure on Israel not to exterminate them. Israel has taken a very long approach and eventually there will be no Palestinians in Palestine at all.@@Tyler_W
The Jews suffered under nazis not too long ago and now are sadly the perpetrators. The victim has become the perpetrator. The cycle continues and The Almighty is watching
She is a historian now 🤔 “what you said was wrong”. “they were basically kicked out” a long long long time ago so “long story short” “um basically “ your right Is she for real?
Her argument fails when she said the Arabs who lived there had no country or nation. So if you lived in a place for generations but you don't have a specific name for your people that doesn't mean you don't belong there?
Her argument fails yet you acknowledge she is right. Apologists for Islamic terror always cite “international law” when decrying Israel. Guess it only works one way.
Yea her logic is atrocious. I understand this is a generalization, but I’ve noticed Jews to consistently have logic that is subpar to the rest of their intellect
They didn't have an independent identity, and huge numbers of them moved into the area because of the economic opportunities provided by the Jewish state building.
How can a people who went across the world, mixed with others, and many don't even practice the common religion, claim a land that theh hadn't ruled in 2000 years?
because they deserve it. Every people should have their own country. The Jews didn't have theirs. That's why the Holocaust happened. They couldn't flee anywhere. Now that they have a home Jews can flee and live there. Have you ever asked yourself why there are 0% Jews in the Middle East? They all fled persecution and started over in Israel. The Arabs have 57 countries to choose from. Why can't the Jews have 1for them? Only 1
The term "Palestine" first appeared in the 5th century BCE when the ancient Greek historian Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê"
@@bro3545presumably that's why the Romans called it Palestine, to insult the Jews by giving it a name in reference to one of the rulers of one of the Hebrews' historical enemies and subjugators.
"Phillips expressed opposition to Irish independence, declaring on 7 March 2017 in her column in The Times, that the "most troublesome bits" of the UK are "showing signs of disuniting". For her, Scottish nationalism and Irish republicanism are cultural phenomena "rooted in romanticism and myth", while Englishness "came to stand proxy for all the communities of the British Isles". In particular, she wrote "Ireland itself has a tenuous claim to nationhood" because the Irish Free State was only established in 1922. She denounced "attempts at secession by tribes" in Northern Ireland". Now what is this other than hypocrisy?
That very hypocrisy is the heart of the reason why they’re not well viewed around the world. And this nonsense she states about India and China being pro-Jewish is laughable. They’re about as pro-Jewish as Putin.
I think you can draw clear parallels to an independent United Ireland and Palestine in that they have never existed in History ie. romanticism and myth. They have also both used violence and propaganda to garner support from uninformed people from around the world and have somehow managed to diminish the fact that the IRA and Hama's are brutal murderers who have killed women and children indiscriminately. There are many other parallels - too many to go into on here.
So, what other peoples have an unalienable right to claim a piece of land as theirs, for all eternity? How far back do they have to go to prove their ownership? And more interestingly, who will arm and finance them in their claim?
We already accept that the indigenous people of every land colonized by Europeans have an inalienable right to it. Don't we? The Jewish people are the indigenous people - or at the very least, certainly ONE of the indigenous people - of the land formerly called Palestine. They pre-dated the first Arabs in the region by at least 1000 years. Over 75% of that territory, Jordan, is now occupied and governed by Arabs. No Jews are even allowed to live there. So why is the Jewish people's right to the tiny remainder so contested?
@@KathyPrendergast-cu5ci not necessarily. If an actual country was there then more so yes. Nomadic tribes have no claim to any land. Native American tribes hated each other and constantly took over and lost territory. Look up what the comanches did to peaceful tribes who did settle and grow crops. It’s all a mess with no easy answers but violence like we just saw should always be condemned.
@@KathyPrendergast-cu5ci It is simpler than that: If you had to live in the ME - where would you choose? There is literally only one place. I'd prefer that option to no places.
Ultimately, all of it is, in a way, irrelevant now, because we're in 2023 now and people live where people live. We can't go back to 500 BCE just like we can't go back to the 1920s. What we currently have is a functioning Israeli state that is a country with people in it whose neighbors have officially committed to wiping off of the face of the earth and killing every man, woman, and child. Even if Israel wanted to make peace, that hatred is not going anywhere because it's largely based on religion and history. So their options are to leave or defend themselves.
@@Sneakyboson It's the eternal "Zionist Jewish Left" vs "Communist pro-Arab left" factional fight. She gets to be the token zionist on the Guardian staff.
I went to school in the 70 in Spain, Catalonia and I always learnt that they had connection with the land, what is happening now or with the people went school after me is just crazy, in which moment the history told in schools changed or is not told anymore.
It has been confirmed that Benjamin Netanyahu let this happen on purpose as a pretext to eliminate Gaza from the map. This will solidify his leadership position for a long time which is what he really wanted.
The one constant thing about this conflict is that the amount of lies on both sides makes it impossible to be certain of what the truth is, for those of us on the outside.
All I’m certain is that both sides are victims and offenders. And I think we would say that about most historical wars if they were happening before our eyes; the deal is that now we have internet and so far no winners to mold history
It's not impossible though. The truth about Israel's modern and ancient founding is well documented. And it is well documented that many of the Muslim governments around Israel do not want peace with Israel. They want its complete destruction.
I mean, so are the irish going to france, doesn't mean they can reclaim it. Or the spanish that conquered most of europe, doesn't mean they can reclaim it. Or the Mongols that conquered half the world under genshin khan, doesn't mean they can reclaim it. See my point?
@@rapidlovingthose peoples culture did not develop on the lands they conquered. Spanish people have a right to Spain, Irish people to Ireland. Jewish people to Israel.
@@Joeshapiro7 that's not true through. culture isn't a value to determine who rightfully owns something. Or whom it should belong too. We'd have a difficult topic in for example north america and australia, to name 2 places.
@rapidloving you could make an argument that when the settlers moved overtime, they became detached from their own culture and founded somewhat of a new hybrid and eventually multi-ethnic culture. In Australia, because they were convicts, it was even easier to become fundamentally different once removed from Britain. In Quebec, the British conquest detached Quebecois from French culture, which led to them having a separate one. So you could argue that many aspects of the settler culture are indigenous to those lands. That would not necessarily lessen Native American claims to self determination or to compensation for atrocities done on the basis of ancestry. It would however provide a framework for all Americans to live peacefully. In fact that is why Native American sovereignty over their reservations exists. With regards to Israel and Palestine, I would say that while it legitimizes the Jewish connection to the land. It also legitimizes the Palestinian one. One could make the argument that Palestinian peoples were nomadic peoples who had no unifying connection until recently. Therefore, you could make the argument that all universal Palestinian culture has been defined by opposition to Zionism and that without Zionism there would be no Palestinians. However, by making the argument that rights can be defined by a culture springing from the land, you can argue that even if Palestinian Nationalism is a result of the romantic period of nationalism of the late 1800's that Palestinians still have the right to an organism to help them continue to develop their culture in the land where it started. Obviously, in a peaceful setting, it would be defined by other things than opposition to Zionism. But the main point here is that recognition of Jewish connections or Jewish rights does not lessen Palestinian connections. Ideally, it would not lessen Palestinians' rights either but provide a way for two indigenous peoples to share the land rather than bicker to the end of days over it. If anything both Jewish culture and Palestinian culture have stronger connections to the lands because they completely originated there as opposed to being a cultural split off of something from elsewhere.
Lol, like you couldn't say the same about Arabs. Gee, it's almost like her entire argument is nothing but the special pleading fallacy and an appeal to emotion. XD
Mass delusions are not known for their logical consistency. "Next year in Jerusalem" is proof that we always intended to return to the land we never left.
Sue contradicts herself repeatedly. On one occasion she says they never left, and later she says they returned. How can someone return without first leaving? She is illogical in her argument.
as a nation Israel was the only nation that ruled it. Others ruled the land as a part of a greater empire, such as the Ottoman Turks, The Roman Empire, ect.
I think it can, if one is honest about one's bias. But the logical conclusion of a discussion between people with an opposing bias is that they end up agreeing to disagree. How to resolve the problem from there? Both sides have to accept compromise - then it can become a good faith negotiation. IN THEORY
An "honest conversation" between three non-experts on the issue, including a guest who's "expertise" in quite frankly anything at all is most generously described as questionable.
You're only saying that because you're incapable of disputing a single point that she made. Prove me wrong. Choose one point that she made and show why it's wrong. Oh, you can't.
@@MrJREllmanShe’s never said anything entirely wrong, but she has made claims that ridiculous. Jews did have a presence there, but there were even Muslims and Christians with a presence there. Having a presence means jack shit. If you aren’t living there, it was never your home. Although “Palestinian” didn’t exist as a term, there were definitely people lived there with governance under the Ottoman empire before its defeat in WW1. It’s next to a massive body of fresh water. There were definitely people living there surrounded by plenty of civilizations. They just weren’t called “Palestinians”. They were Ottomans before 1917. But there were still people living there.
@@MrJREllmanAs other comments here have pointed out, she originally claimed Konstantin was wrong about everything he said, then later mentioned that Jews always had a presence there, then later mentioned that Jews started “coming back”. That all seems awfully contradictory. If they already had a presence there, who was coming back? And isn’t that exactly what Konstantin pointed out in the beginning? She kept objecting to everything Konstantin said about what happened, but she blatantly lied here somewhere. Konstantin essentially pointed out that they were living there 2000 years ago so they believe it’s their right. Which she says he was wrong about but clearly essentially believed. Nothing she said contradicted the idea that she believed Israel is essentially a bunch of people who had ancestors living there 2000 years ago and are now starting to take it back. In fact, the fact that she called it their “homeland” suggests she clearly believes… exactly what Konstantin had said: that since their ancestors lived there 2000 years ago, that they have a right to the land.
@@virgodem I think she was making the point that there have always been Jews living there. Not just 2000 years ago but since. As she said they were called Palestinians since the Roman empire renamed the region.
@@virgodemYou just sprayed a dozen half criticisms without making a single point. If you can just choose one point that you disagree with, it will look less like you're just desperate to find something, anything that you can to disagree with. But I'll pick on the one thing that is nearly a point in your comments: the statement that because Jews always had a presence in the land, they couldn't have come back. Most Jews were ethnically sent into exile by the Romans but a small number remained. The land was considered holy and a homeland by the Jews for 2,000 years; both those Jews that remained and those that didn't. Those that didn't remain, finally returned after the holocaust. Where is the contradiction in that?
Mr Hitchens said it best .. "Religion has a veto on these lands." There can't be a compromise when God or Allah has told you, "You have a divine right to these lands.
Zionist are secularists. Their claim cites the Bible. Palestinians are not only Muslims. Their claim is not a religious one. Their claim is that they have been cleansed from their homes. Whether you call them Palestinians or nothing at all, they lived there.😊
I think if one were to delve a bit deeper she would say that her people were given the land by God. I have often heard in the past from friends of her persuasion that it is the other religions that are extreme. The creation of Israel and the reasoning behind it paints a different picture.
@@airstrip1836 The funny thing about that assertion is that many Jews, like Theodor Herzl, are in fact atheists, so what God promissed them that land? Israel is colonisation of Arab land by Europeans, pure and simple.
@@airstrip1836 This is the root of things that seems to be omitted from a lot of commentary. There exists this fundamental belief that the land inherently belongs to them because according to scripture God granted it to them, and the intent is to somehow restore it, and anyone outside of the tribe is effectively a disposable obstacle to that happening.
@@TheLearnedFool Yes in an effort to rid humanity of practices such as child and human sacrifice; the Jews (according to the Torah in any case) were instructed to eliminate from existance groups engaging in behavior such as cannibalism and human and child sacrifice that are anathema to human survival and flourishing. The idea being these practices present such a danger to humanity that a surviving member of such a community can not be permitted to rediscover the practice and therefore none from such a group can be permitted to live. Now, take those stories as historical fact or religious narrative they do present a very interesting moral dilemma; one that only can be ordained by the Devine and can never be instigated by man. Though, I am not sure if a theological discussion was something you were looking to pursue with your comment.......we shall see.
Imagine an Indian Tribe in north America...that was kicked off its land several centuries ago. They start returning to their "homeland" and start buying large blocks of real estate...to be annexed into the closest reservation as approved by the Federal government. Those locally initiate an attack on the Indians and the Indians fight back and win. Some locals are displaced. Is this analogous?
yes, that's pretty much what went down. That was land owned by the British, not by the Arabs, let alone the "palestinians" who didn't even exist in 1948. At last somebody who can use a brain.
It's not that what she is saying is not "true" it is that it is biased by her feelings. A Palestinian could tell you the same history and it would be coloured the other way. Palestine has been systematically sqeezed, while living in an aparthied. She tells it as if the land was always the state of Israel, which isn't accurate. By her argument, Britain could claim ownership over half the planet and just force people out of their homes. I wonder would she use that argument to give Ireland back the 6 counties of Northern Ireland. After all, at no point has there been no Irish men and women living there.
@@Kildergcowboy Oh really? Could a Palestinian tell you about the time that piping was shipped into Jerusalem to fix their overburdened sewage system, and Israel instead used the piping to make rockets to murder Palestinians with? When did the charter for Israel call for a jihad until there is Jewish state in Gaza and the West Bank?
Again, that means nothing and isn't a good argument. So did the Caananites after the Israelis tried to gncde them. According to genetic research most Palestinians are descended from Caananites and other indigenous peoples. "There were Jewish people on the land" does not mean "this land is thus only for Jews." even in the torah and bible, Jews are not native to modern day Israel or Palestine. Moreover, "we wusz here furst" is not a good argument to begin with, because that would mean 99% of modern nation states are invalid or have the right to conquer or take large parts of other nations.
@@privateprivate4315 I consider it a whole lot better than the inquisition. It was the Ottomans who send their own navy to pick up the Jews fleeing from Spain. It was the Germans that comitted the Holocaust. It was the Russians that persecuted the Jews relentlessly. Muslims by enlarge have been far better hosts to jews than Christians.
Abraham and Sarah were born in Ur a Mesapotamian city state. They bought land in Caanan in order to have a place to be buried. They BOUGHT some land. They did not steal as many more recent Jews have.
so I can just come with my family to another land and demand a country? You can't just have more countries on the expense of other people. Jews have history in this land as a nation.
I agree. She states he’s completely wrong then tells a similar narrative. She used a lot of words to more or less say but the Jews were there in ancient times so they alone hold legitimate claim. Is she willing to give up her land and property to those who occupied it before it was bought and sold?
Think if all the native Indians from US and Canada where to do this. We don’t have to go back 2000 years only a-few hundred for gods sakes. Bla bla bla this doesn’t give the right for the Zionist to commit the mistreatment that had been bestowed onto them. Sickening the power, money and corruption that backs this endless unrest.
Which other groups can you think of that have cultural and social continuity from 2000 years ago that don't already assert those rights in the way you say?
@@rashidsalis619 It was a catastrophe only for the side that lost, but losing’s like that. No doubt the Axis powers felt it was a catastrophe when they lost WWII. But they’ve picked themselves up and moved on.
I live in Denmark, and using this woman argument, I want Sweden, Iceland, and Norway back under the crown of Denmark. We also need a Large part of northern Germany, parts of Poland and some of the baltic countries. England was also under Danish rule, and we want it back, It is a similar story for Normandy in France. North America was also discovered by Danes not by "what was his name" from some obscure southern European country - We want North America back! Swedish Vikings, who at the time were under Danish sovereign, also founded Keiv, So Russia should get out of Ukraine it is clearly part of Denmark! ...
Yes! I think I remember reading this recently, that, historically, Ottomans controlled the southern third of Ukraine, Poles did another third and the Kingdom of Denmark controlled the northern third. But since Denmark controlled parts of Poland, I'd also say that the Polish part should be given to Denmark, too. And then, since there are a lot of Danish pastries being sold in the United States, I think the US should become a part of Denmark. At least if Denmark rules us, we'll start having better airplane food here in the States :) But your points are really spot on. My heritage is both Serbian and Croatian, and I recall all the arguments about Kosovo while growing up in Belgrade, as Serbs considered it their historic land where they battled the Ottomans in 1389, and the Kosovar Albanians considered themselves Illyrian people who predated the Slavs in the region by centuries, so they thought the land was naturally theirs. None of this fighting and arguing really helped anyone in the end, and I think going back to the Israel government's retaliation and bombing raids on Gaza following the Hamas terror attack on Israel's innocent civilians, it's not anti-semitic to call out Israel's militant zionist government (Netanyahu in particular and his trigger-happy generals) on their desire to deliver a collective punishment to entire Gaza population, even though so many citizens of Gaza have nothing to do with Hamas and don't want them. It's wrong to deny an entire population water and electricity. Violence in response to violence is never the answer.
There have always been Greeks in Istanbul and large parts of Turkey, should we give that back to them? The reasoning that created Israel is honestly insane and completely untenable. @@LukeFlegg
so refute the arguments if you have facts, otherwise, no sense pretending Journalists can't also understand history. I notice you, nor anyone agreeing with you made any effort to show why why she said was not worthwhile
@@matthewhunter6421 It's simply her opinion. Nothing more. Land has been won and lost throughout the generations, what is the precident to return it? Don't get me wrong, the actions in the area have been dispicable, the attacking of civilians is never right. Yet can we not think about it in a little more depth than "Thats mine" or "No its mine" based on a couple of books?
A decent overview but just a couple of points. When the Mandate was established under The League of Nations, the British renamed the area Palestine as a homage to the Romans who had changed Judea to 'Syria Palaestina' as a slight to the Jews when Hadrian crushed their uprising, expelling a large part of the population to ensure it could never happen again. Under the Ottomans, the area was known as South Syria and encompassed modern day Israel and Jordan. Arabs were granted tracts of land by the Ottoman Caliphate to create homesteads, after 3 years they had to pay tribute to the Caliph or lose that land which they never actually owned - They were moved in to the area from neighbouring Arab lands in small numbers, the census of 1882 showed just over 220,000 Arabs across the whole of modern day Israel and Jordan. As Melanie rightly points out, far bigger Arab migration to the area came in the 20th Century when the Jews were rebuilding their soon to be independent state which offered job opportunities which were far better than in the other Arab lands. Furthermore, when Israel was recreated, the constitution of the country stated equality for all citizens irrespective of background which continues to this day - 20% of Israeli citizens are of Arab background and serve at all levels of society, from the Health Service to government, judiciary and even the IDF. Those 'Palestinians' (A Term created in the 60's by PLO leader, Yasser Arafat) who scream about oppression have rejected Israeli citizenship and live under their own rule, in Gaza under Hamas and in Judea & Samaria (Known as 'The West Bank' after renaming by The Jordanians during their 1949-67 occupation) under the PA. Both were given autonomy under the terms of The Oslo Accords in the 90's, an agreement that the Arabs reneged on less than 48 hours after they signed it whilst Israel still honours the terms
Can you tell me when the Palestinian leadership rejected Israeli citizenship? After the 1967 war Israeli citizenship was only granted to a few people in the conquered territories (mainly E. Jerusalem and the Golan). The people of the West Bank and Gaza were not (and never were since IIRC). That is the big sticking point for the Israelis. They don't want Jews to be a minority in the country, hence the populations of Gaza and the West Bank being perpetually "occupied" rather than incorporated into the Israeli republic.
"Israel still honors the terms"... Hilarious. What is there for Israel not to honor? Did it set a boundary between 2 countries? No. Did it have to hand over the external security to Palestinian authorities? No. They only had to give up the civil administration of a portion of what they occupied, in return of recognition from PLO and int community. Reverse the same deal to Palestinians and they'd happy to 'honor' it as well.
@@directorscompany379 She made light of the 700k non-Jew inhabitants in the area in the early 1900s (that had ancestor that had been there for centuries) making the viewer think that it was no big deal to move them off their homes and land.
Problem there is that this channel deals in truth whereas Finkelstein and fellow travellers like Ilan Pappe do not. I would recommend reading the extremely well researched book 'Industry of Lies' by Ben-Dror Yemini which gives you a far better grasp on both the situation and reality
I think she managed to intimidate the guys a little. Forced to choose I'd plant my flag as pro-Israel; but she became mildly aggressive when challenged, and the guys backed off with haste.
Unfortunately, they had no research to question or challenge her with. So it was just her soap box. Get a Jew and Muslim in the same room with the same amount of historical knowledge and it would be an interesting interview/discussion.
that's not what happened at all, they were letting her spout her psychopathic nonsense so people can see exactly how sick this woman is, they're letting her incriminate herself.
Kingdom of Israel only exists as in Jewish religious texts, so her claims are nonsense. There's no such thing as a 'Christian' Zionist. The Jews killed Jesus ffs.
Melanie Phillips needs to explain the explosions of Palestinians in 1948 and how the Israeli government prevented those who temporarily fled the violence of the war (like the Deir Yassin Massacre) from returning to their homes. These Palestinians were never financially compensated for their lost/stolen property and were forced to live in refugee camps. Regardless of how strongly any of these people identified as Palestinian before 1948, exiling them and seizing their property was wrong and their anger at the state of Israel for this is legitimate. To make matters worse, many of these Palestinian refugees were living in refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank, which were occupied by Israel after the 1967 War. Many continue to be forced off their land in the West Bank as Israeli settlers move in. The Israeli settlers have Israeli citizenship and the Israelis control most of the West Bank, making it effectively annexed territory. The problem is that Palestinians living in the West Bank don't have Israeli citizenship, making the West Bank effectively an Apartheid State. Israel can solve this either by pulling all settlers and military forces out of the West Bank and allowing it to be an independent country or by offering the Palestinians living there Israeli citizenship and all the rights that come with it, but the Israeli government does not want to do either of these. Right-wing Israelis, many of whom are in the current government, instead hope to coerce/force Palestinians to leave the West Bank so they can claim the territory as part of Israel. The irony of the whole situation is that Jews have historically experienced exile and disenfranchisement similar to what the Israeli government does to Palestinians today.
850,000+ Jews evicted from Arab countries where they’d lived for up to 2500 years were not compensated; they were lucky to get out alive (as many others were not).
The Arabs started a war on the Jews after multiple massacres going all the way to 1948 and made their intentions very clear. Mind you there were many refugees at the time, post world war 2. Only the Arabs leaving Israel were given special treatment, as a testament to both Muslim and Majority of western world animosity toward Jews.
Im sure Taiwan loves this argument. Infact the Taiwanese people didnt even exsist. They were just some nomadic Taiwanese. This logic is dishonest. Be honest the victors write history, manifest destiny, might makes right.
@@LeeTheKnight What, they aren't from there. If you a referring to the indo-aryans they developed in eastern europe and expanded in every direction from there
@@LeeTheKnightThe Roma have a total estimated population of between 2 and 12 million people. India has a population of a billion. They would hardly be noticed.
That's not how it works! 12 million will be a shock to the economy without talking about cultural and religious differences it will be a disaster@@januarysson5633
Middle eastern Jews and Palestinians share a lot DNA. Many will share ancestors. Prioritising people because they identify as Jewish as opposed to Palestinian neglects the logic of their shared ancestry if that is what the claim is regarding the right to live on land. You can't just say Palestinians didn't exist, it's the people who decide what their identity is. A nomadic lifestyle isn't a reason to disposess people of land.
If they are nomadic, they would not have thought of it being *their* land. Besides, focusing on the particular history is irrelevant when it comes to judging terrorist acts (or punitive demolitions) on innocent people
If theyre ethnic syrians, arabs, chaldeans, egyptians, etc., as much as i may disagree with islam as a Christian, i don't believe jews from america, eastern european ghettoes, britain, and elsewhere have a universal claim to their land simply because practicing jews were once expelled. Nor do arabs or practitioners of their religion have a universal claim to the area simply because of historical mosques and arab ties to biblical Ishmael. It's a matter of warfare, the Zionist settlers of the 20th century built on the land and fought tooth and nail to expand their territory, with the help of their external connections. If local arabs, syrians, and jordanians have to bomb civilians to seize what they think was their property, or their town years ago, then that's just how it is. Its a shame to see european and american governments perpetuating the cycle by sending arms and money to the region constantly, but it also seems that the french and british gave up on securing their claims to the region.
How can you treat people in this way. Why do people that have been persecuted for thousands of years, persecute other in the same way. Have you never learnt anything.
My therapist described it as a cultural trauma response. Made sense to me. So many peoples struggle with this, perpetuating the aggression and violence for generations.
Starting witgh he highly debatable idea that the Jewish nation is THE VERY FIRST organized nation under law in human history, before Assyrians, Babylonians and Summerians, just to name a few. Old indeed, but not at all the original template for everybody else that followed, around the Mediterranean or elsewhere.
Kostya, it was a bit simplistic question when you compared yourself trying to resettle back to Moscow and you would need to kick out current occupants living in that flat. Jews in Israel came and built their own housing. Some Arabs fled their homes but it was their decision. Yes, there was some forceful removal of Arabs but it was not a majority of cases. It was a war afterwards. Thanks for everything you are doing
so based on what she said, native Americans have a "HISTORIC RIGHT" to the the the continent known as America and must take it all back I guess? she makes ZERO sense
Many ppl agree with that tho and say we’re on stolen land. The difference is wars and battles were fought and the Americans and Jews won. The historic right is more of a response to the ppl who say Jews have no connection to the land. But at the end of the day whoever conquers wins.
In the sense that land is ethnically owned, yes. Many groups of people don't "own" the land they live on (like the North American Indians); they would say where they were from and where they hunt, but did not create settlements attached to a static piece of land. Europeans own land, ring-fence it and say it is theirs, just for them. The Bedouin tribes in Israel do not. In this sense, the UK and all its former colonies have adopted a geographical ownership system first pioneered by the oldest functional city in the world (Jericho, now annexed to West Bank).
@@angrytedtalks lmao these people will rationalise anything to justify the "we're allowed to be a genocidal ethno-state, but nobody else is" mythology they've built
@@McSkore08 actually the current rhetoric from the left is precisely explained by the kind of inherent racism she has elaborated upon here. How else do you explain the “squad” calling for an immediate cease fire after Hamas just sneak attacked them? They want to de-fang and de-claw the Israelites, let Hamas destroy them, and then give Hamas a pass. Total double standard.
The type of bias she points out is more or less western condescension, which can be seen on the left and the right. And then she generalizes to the left because a couple people at one news paper were immoral. And then people on the internet quote a vast oversimplification as true - even giving it a thumbs up - while ignoring the irony of her making group generalizations while attempting to disparage the generalizations made against her own group... It's almost as if people don't listen to what's being said, or only care about it insofar as it supports their currently held position.
@@McSkore08 The new left in America dates to the late 1970s and I've experienced here exactly what she described in college back in the 1980s at San Francisco State where Angela Davis taught.
I am from Poland born in West Poland . This kind of talk brings us to the point when we would have to give back all our lands to previous owners ….?! That spells only wars not peace . At this stage we must obey treaties . I have cried for the past two days seeing what is going on . Now when people in Gaza are cut of collectively from food , electricity , water one can only think of Warszawa uprising and weep
@@jacktran7024 What happened to all the native tribes , not only on the territories of the USA but all over the world is tragic . How do you propose to resolve it ? Are you prepared to go home ? Like I said above I am Polish . My ancestors are from what is now Ukraine ( yes it was Poland for ages ) . The family was told to pack up sell they house ( guess who bought it , the new flag on the news ) and just go while the Ukrainian and German bandits were killing them on the way …. This is not story from ages ago . What do you want me to do ? Fight the Ukrainians ? Ask the Jews for the house back ?
@@ewabm3743 in Europe no one wnats to change the borders anymore. All of us have our own country. We are good. Now Jews want to have only one country for them. Meanwhile Arabs have 57 countries to choose from. Why do they want to destroy Israel? Gaza is in this Situation because they don't accept Israel's existence. When Israel became independent in 1948, they were immediately attacked by several Arab states.
Where in eastern Germany were you born? Here's the thing, history happens. The German/Polish border used to be in one place, then the Germans f***ed up and started a war they couldn't win, now it's in another place. In 1948 the Palestinians f***ed up and started a war they couldn't win, now Israel exists. But Palestine exists too, even if no one can agree on its borders. If we try setting the clock back no one will be happy because whatever magic date you choose that we're supposed to go back to, someone will be the loser and demand s different date. How about we just talk about the rights people have today, on the land they're occupying today, and forget about past grievances? And if you'd asked me last Friday, I'd say the Palestinians have a right to a state on the land they've occupied since 1949, and so do the Israelis on the land they occupied before 1967. But Hamas f***ed up on an absolutely epic scale, and now they're paying an epic price. It turns out when you go around raping women to death and beheading infants and then posting videos online to brag about it while the folks back home dance in the streets and celebrate the rapes and decapitations, the relatives of those people get pretty riled up and come looking for payback. So while I still think the Palestinians must someday be granted their human rights, sadly, there's going to be bombing and invasion before that happens, and the Palestinians can only blame themselves and their own actions for that. They have sown the wind, and now they will reap the whirlwind.
@@brucetucker4847 I don't think they should get a state. 1. They don't want one, as long as they have to accept Israel's state. They had many chances to agree to a two state solution, but they want all or nothing. 2. Any Palestinian state would become a second Afghanistan where different Islamic groups fight over dominanc, while plotting the end of Israel.
[Definition] Insidious: proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with harmful effects. What is truly insidious about this 'conflict' is that the more you learn about each side's gripes (legitimate or not) , the less you actually care about either side's position, until all you care about are the human lives lost...
@@potptvpatsonthepulse5701 then that's not 'insidious', according to the definition you provided ;P Just pointing out a small contradiction in your OP. We agree that this conflict has no 'good side' vs 'bad side', but just very bad consequences.
I agree, but Hamas wants to destroy Israel, and wipe out the jews. Israel has offered a two state solution a number of times all offers of which have been rejected. I know that there are wrongs on both sides, but when one side wants to be conciliatory, and the other wants annihilation of its enemy, then I side with Israel. And I am not ashamed to say it.
So she's saying Jews have more of a right to the land. You are smarter than to get on Israeli nationalists, FF and KK. The Palestinians have been there for centuries too. Is it their fault that the Arabs invaded and took it off the Byzantines? So can't they SHARE the LAND? There is no historical evidence of the Toranic or Biblical kings of Israel, or much frankly of the Torah/Bible.
Following is a brief timeline detailing peace proposals rejected by the Palestinians: - 1947 UN Partition Plan: At the time when Great Britain governed the territory now fought over by Israel and Palestinians, the UN General Assembly proposed the establishment of two states, Jewish and Arab. This offer was accepted by the Jews and quickly rejected by the Palestinians. - 1993-1994 Oslo Accords - The Oslo Accords represent the start of what was supposed to be a “peace process” for Israel and the Palestinians. Israel agreed to recognize the Palestinian Authority’s right to interim self-governance in Gaza and the West Bank in return for the Palestinians’ recognition of Israel’s sovereignty. Soon after the “peace process” was established, Palestinians began attacking Israel with suicide bombers. 2000 Israel Offers Follow-up Peace Deal - Israel offered the Palestinians another opportunity to end the conflict, but the offer was rejected outright. Instead of proposing an alternate peace deal, former Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat initiated terror attacks on Israel that led to the death of 1,184 Israelis, according to reports. - 2005 Israelis evacuate Gaza Strip and West Bank -Israel ordered the evacuation of all Israeli settlements within Gaza and the West Bank, essentially giving this land to the Palestinians in an attempt to establish peace. The Palestinians did not accept this gesture of goodwill and instead allowed Hamas to take over the Gaza Strip and continued issuing terror attacks on Israel. - 2008 peace proposal - Israel offered the PA another peace deal that was rapidly rejected by the PA’s new president Mahmoud Abbas. Reportedly, the Palestinians were not satisfied with the land boundaries proposed in the deal, as they did not allow the Palestinians control over Jerusalem’s holy sites. - 2009 Israel Offers Support for Palestinian State - Israel offered conditional support for a demilitarized Palestinian state, which the Palestinians quickly rejected. - 2020 Trump Peace Plan (Deal of the Century) - Palestinians quickly rejected a peace plan formulated by former President Donald Trump and supported by Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The plan’s title was “Peace to Prosperity: A Vision to Improve the Lives of the Palestinian and Israeli People,” and focused on economic incentives to quickly and drastically repair the Palestinian economy. The Palestinians refused the deal prior to seeing it.
The innocent civilians in gaza are cheering the dead bodies on parade, beating prisoners to death and whacking dead bodies with sticks as they pass in the back of a pickup.... Those are children, women and men alike. That's not an innocent civilian population Those are religious zealots who have been brainwashed just like the Hitler youth.....
How about the fact that they've rejected every effort at peace, didn't fight against Egypt and Jordan during those countries occupation up to 1967, specifically excluded those occupied territories from their claims in the early 1960s, considered "palestine" be just be southern Syria............
@@Buttholio The point is that, if a homeland was their goal, they would have accepted a two-state solution one of the several times it was offered. They refused, preferring to aim for the utter destruction of the state of Israel instead, which isn't rational if all you want is a home of your own.
@@ponygirl1716 "We believe so strongly in our idea of a homeland, that we very happily give some of it away" The rejection of an offer of land being taken from you in a 'civil' way hardly says "sure, we don't care about a homeland". If I moved into your summer home because you were rarely there, I wouldn't take your rejection of my offer to let you keep half of it as "Well, they rejected my offer, so they must not want their home!". "I reject your offer to only take half my stuff" does not mean "I'm happy for you to take half my stuff".
I watched it to the end - it is all about her. One thing she is correct about is "everything is a matter of opinion" - and she obviously has her opinion on this subject !
Israel has occupied Palestinian land in contravention of international law; they have blockaded Palestinian territory in contravention of international law; they have built and enlarged settlements in contravention of international law; enforced an apartheid system that strips Palestinians of the most basic Civic and human rights, and they have also targeted and killed and injured civilians on a mass scale for decades. And the response of the western world at this time is what? Israel has a right to defend itself. Well what exactly does that mean? That they can cut off food? That they can cut off the power? That they can cut off water? (In violation of the Geneva Convention); That they can force the displacement of over a million citizens in what has been described by Non Governmental Organizations and United Nations representatives on the ground as an open-air prison."
@@directorscompany379 ok I'm a Palestinian refugee. We were ethnically cleaned in 1948 and 1967. Do you really believe that the land was unclaimed and no people attached to it? Palestine had a passport, currency and a soccer team. Watch her body language. How many more shrugs do you need to see.
@@kingpic okay thank you for putting your cards on the table so i know from the get to nothing you say is form an objective view point. I am sorry to hear you are a refugee. That sounds like a difficult socioeconomic situation which I have no experience of. You didn't answer my questions however, I asked what were her lies and how as a listener am i supposed to know they are lies? Your reply of asking me "Do you really believe that the land was unclaimed and no people attached to it?" is a question I can answer but its best for conversation if when I ask something you respond in stead of 'moving the goal posts' of conversation. Regarding "We were ethnically cleaned in 1948 and 1967." I don't think in this clip the speaker denied the happens but referenced 4/5 conflicts since WWII which I think you are referring to. This video doesn't directly mention them so I take your word for it that they happened. Just as I take this speakers word for it that things happened as she said, which brings be nicely in full circle asking you again, what were her lies, why can i not trust what she is saying, just as i am trusting what you are saying. also I am listening not watching so cannot comment on shuffling.
@@directorscompany379 Open a history book, or better yet, open the Torah. The Jews weren't the first to arrive in Israel. Canaanites lived there before the Jews.
Maybe. But we only see decapitating babies and raping women to death, then posting videos online to the folks back home can dance and celebrate, on one side. That's the side I'm against. I don't care all that much about the ancient history.
The arrogance of claiming someone deserves a piece of land because it was theirs thousands of years ago is breathtaking. Holy shit. Lady, the entire world is like that! Every single group of people on earth has invaded other groups and been invaded themselves. All the worlds borders have expanded and shrunk, and sometimes they were wiped off the map all together. Why are the jews/hebrews owed more than every other people who's had land stolen from them? Should Shetland, Faroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland be given back to norwegians? Should most of modern Turkey be given back to the greek? North and south America? Etc etc etc (I'm not talking about the modern political disputes of Israel. And I'm neither pro or anti Israel. I just think the "back in the day" argument is stupid.)
And it's totally ignoring dna tests that show modern Palestinians descend more from jews who converted than Arabs. So that historical "right" is just as much Palestinians, if not more so. Her whole argument is bs based in zionism and religion as opposed to dna, geopolitics, and facts.
Actualy the Jews deserve it but not because of what she says. She is as insane as these guys fro hamas , hezbollah or any other islamic organization. It's the only country in the region that despite being build around people whose identity is religon driven, the people who run thst country most of the time are not religiously driven. Even the forefathers of current Israel state were lefties who did not give much crap about jwh. Objectively Israel is better with handling the resources they have. Compared to the neighbour countries, no doubt about it. That poor Palestine which according to popular opinions is so poor, is actually 4 times more rich than eg Egypt. That is derived from avarage salary. So from the perspective of the people who live there, state instutitutions actually function in Palestine , co pared to the surrounding muslim world. So to sum up, this lady is a nutjob, and she should not have anything to say thst is decisive on this war
The mentality of both sides is ‘we deserve it more’ rather than ‘how can we help each other’, which is why it cannot be resolved, and always ends in violence. The Palestinians seem less interested in nation building and more interested in nation destroying, however. Very tragic situation and I feel terrible for the poor little children of both sides
The difference is that Arabs are allowed to live in Israel as free and equal citizens, and Jews are not allowed to live in Palestine. So yes, Jews who can live side by side with Arabs absolutely deserve it more than Arabs who want to kill all the Jews. There are more than 2 million Palestinians living in Israel with more rights, freedom, including healthcare and education than they have in any Arab country.
This conversation doesn’t make the present situation any clearer. History is just a fraction of what actually took place in the past. It’s really troubling when people passionate about a subject and enter into informative discussions can’t even accurately articulate what little history we have.
The present situation is very clear. Hamas are rapists that beheaded and kidnap women and children. The situation is pretty clear. Maybe don't support terrorists just because you like a plucky underdog story or that you can relate to being a loser. The genocide of the jews is in the Hamas charter. Pull your head out of your ass or leave it up there and shut up.
@@fanOmry what history lession besides botch propaganda that the land belongs to the jews when they never EVER had and never will have historical ties to the land? well least not the europeans pretending to be jews, and that she claims that palestinians are a made up race, even tho they have far more historical claim to the land then the "Jews" the only claim to the land the "jews" have is through some nonsensical fairy tale book.
just thought i say . A nomad is technically a farmer they just move their livestock from place to place instead of growing the crops for their animals .so when she says there were just some nomads on the land .what she is really saying is the area was filled with farmers just saying .
Released Dec 8th 2018
Watch the full episode here👇🏼
ua-cam.com/video/Aq4suTStoxE/v-deo.html
When only one person is speaking, it's not a conversation, it's a monologue. This is one of those subjects that people tread carefully around, lest they get cancelled. By his own admission, Konstantin didn't know much about the topic, so he couldn't disagree even if he wanted to. A more appropriate title would be: "One person's perspective."
@@josephmassaro She's full of it. Downvoted this video.
@@josephmassaro It is a conversation, while on this extract Melanie Philipps is the one mainly speaking. Francis and Konstantin let her speak, but if you had watched the whole episode, you'll have seen that it's not the case all along the hour of podcast. She is making them learned the truth about the history of Israêl!
@@legolindirteso9430 "Making them learn" doesn't sound like a conversation to me. And it's this 18 minute segment that was posted, by them, as a "conversation." Call it what it is, a monologue. It's not a matter of whether she is right or wrong. That is immaterial. It's what they're calling this segment that I take issue with.
She's mud-raking back 1500 years.. Those types deserve to be invaded... oh wait, they're all like that, these ULTRA CONSERVATIVE NUTJOBS... I have no sympathy for supremacist religions such as the Abrahamic religions.
There’s a reason people don’t get this whole situation. It’s because it’s shrouded in lies and deception
And Melanie is one of the most established perpetrators of it.
@@paulsmith7579 Just like that eh?
@@ThePiratemachine Yes
So true!!!!!!
@paulsmith7579 yet another ignoramus not bothering to seek out any truths. After being harassed out of my home in Newham by muslims with NO support from left councillors etc I decided to research the truth. You have been suckered in by the guardianistas the bbc and the rest of the dishonest mainstream media
The UK and US did not model themselves after ancient Israel, but rather Ancient Greece. From their governmental systems, to their architecture, and many things in between, Ancient Greece was a major inspiration and influence.
The Jews themselves were slaves/workers in Egypt, and then did a runner. Hardly the first nation.
She's full of the proverbial
Yes it was a major influence too, but the western civilisation owes a lot to its christain judean hertitage...
Our legal framework is broadly drawn from The Ten Commandments.
Primarily from Rome. Rome had the senate, a republic, separate executive branch (the consuls), etc. Rome had elections of tribunes and the like (a bicameral legislature, in effect).
I don't know who's right in this conflict, but I do think that "we were here first so it's ours to go back to" seems like a crap justification unless you're going to apply that to literally every people who had their land taken/conquered.
But the left insist that our former colonies belong to the people who were there first, so which one is it?
White people have never taken land & conquered people.
She literally said that wasn't the case, and they had always been there.
Which other people are you comparing it to though? Which other nation/religion, particularly of biblical age and proportion, is stranded and dispersed without a land to go to?
100%.
This whole situation is impossible, I can't see how there will ever be a peaceful resolution. My heart breaks for the innocent children.
We can hope and pray.
@@geniexmay562So literally nothing then
@stellar7089 No, he said we can hope and pray. That is not nothing, even if you believe to be ineffective, as I tend to do since I am an agnostic atheist.
Yeah, "impossible", because the Nazi Israeli government can't stop being greedy inhumane cunts.
parking lots and forests, that's how you fix all that mess
I know so very little about the subject but everytime I try to dig into it's I find it impossible to find an unbiased viewpoint.
Want to know why? Because it's just a tribal land dispute. That's it. There are **ONLY** biased takes. And it boils down to which tribe you identify with.
@itssteve6018 a fake group taking the name "Palestinians" seeking to occupy the ancestral homeland of the Jews seems pretty simple
If Christians took over Israel, the Muslims would attack Israel.@@itssteve6018
@@itssteve6018 I 'identify' with the 'tribe' that is democratic, progressive, enlightened, and is a major global power in science, research, medicine, tech, and education! And a 'tribe' that doesn't endorse 10-year old girls marrying 30-year old men, and throwing gay people off of buildings!
Why must a viewpoint be unbiased. What does unbiased even mean. Any opinion is automatically biased. U want to look at facts and pick your side.
There isn't a single sliver of land on this earth that hasn't been taken from previous owners by someone else leveraging an advantage. Before man took ownership they were fighting back animals for territory.
We seem to be tragically stuck in a perpetual loop from the actions of long dead people combined with texts written thousands of years ago that purport to offer the believers a better way of life. Yet here we still are with the innocents of the world dying and grieving wishing they could just go about their lives and be kind to one another and be left in peace. We can but dream.
You are right, humans and their existence have always overlapped the previous, in some way. About a hundred or so thousand years ago there were around 5 different varieties of hominoids, including homo sapiens, then the others disappeared, or were probably eliminated, in my view. Homo sapiens have proven to be ruthless, brutal and often violent, being the last one left to dominate the planet today. Nature and life will always seek to occupy space where opportunity exists, humans are no different. Kindness would be nice, but history tells another story.
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head.
Exactly.... her entire argument is nothing but the special pleading fallacy and an appeal to emotion.
@@naejimba essentially 'my ancestors once lived in this land therefore I get to kick you out today to "reclaim" it as mine'
And before agriculture, people were more nomadic and not so bound to a plot of land for a majority of our species' time. Now we fight for every bit.
Nothing she said should be considered controversial. It’s bizarre to live in a world where facts sound radical.
Controversy isn't the issue here. It's phrasing historical events to favour your point of view9which I'm about to do), especially the decision to start with "well Jews were the first and rightful owners of the land" .. oh really? Well the Canaanites were the original people of the land
According to the Hebrew Bible, the Jewish patriarch Abraham is said to have migrated to Canaan, and his descendants, including the famous figures of Isaac and Jacob, became associated with the land.
Facts? Ok here you go: Israel has occupied Palestinian land in contravention of international law; they have blockaded Palestinian territory in contravention of international law; they have built and enlarged settlements in contravention of international law; enforced an apartheid system that strips Palestinians of the most basic Civic and human rights, and they have also targeted and killed and injured civilians on a mass scale for decades.
And the response of the western world at this time is what? Israel has a right to defend itself. Well what exactly does that mean? That they can cut off food? That they can cut off the power? That they can cut off water?
(In violation of the Geneva Convention); That they can force the displacement of over a million citizens in what has been described by Non Governmental Organizations and United Nations representatives on the ground
as an open-air prison."
Palestinians were invented in mid 1960. Just Ukrainians were invented in the 19th century by the Austro-Hungarian empire to divide the Russian people and then Ukraine was invented by Lenin. Former Ukraine is Russia 🇷🇺
Some things have scant detail. A bit tired of this. 7-hour blackout on the security, hangliders and not rockets, please, no drones in the Israeli army?
Nothing she said explained why the UK had the right to settle Jews where other people already lived.
amazing woman and reporter , speaks so clear , and explain the truth
I can't wrap my head around this - I've seen historians from both sides giving rather precise, convincing yet opposite accounts of this matter. I'm no historian, no scholar, thus I am just ignorant on the Palestine/ Israel issue.. I can only pray for the innocent civilians on both sides, and that's about it.
according to my Hebrew/Jewish calendar its the year 5784. We Jews have been in Israel a looooooong time.
Lying by omission is still lying.
You need to learn that a lie can actually be 100% true.
It is called a lie of omission.
A historian can still be a liar, even if they never sated a single false thing and is being 100% accurate.
The lie is formed by what they left out.
@@joangordoneieioJudaism is a religion. Anyone can convert to it. Doesnt change your ancestors.
Yeah it is complicated and messy.
That's all I got to say.
you know in your heart that's not true my love, you know for a fact palestines have been mercilessly abused by the isrealis for decades, you're just to scared to admit it to yourself or you would have to care about them
All this proves is that intelligent people can be blinded by their bias the same as anyone else.
They even smarter in rationalization what happen
I'm assuming you include yourself here?
It is insane how she can just say ‘there is no such thing as Palestinians’. Russians also say there is no such thing as Ukrainians. In all these mess, I only feel bad for the innocent lives lost and suffering, while these ‘smarty pants’ keep spewing nonsense. Such rhetoric won’t bring a resolution.
@@stevenwortrich6014
I do. Do you?
it's *their* land, it says so right there in the book they wrote.
I don't understand the argument that Group A owned this land and they are the only rightful owners of it regardless of Group B, C, D, and F having logically equal claim to it. All while the entire argument seems to ignore that Group A claimed that land from someone at some time prior to the creation of any Jewish kingdom so doesn't whoever that was have an even more logical claim using the original argument?
We essentially don't tolerate this logic anywhere else so why is it tolerated here or should the United States give itself over to the descendents of indigenous population?
You are using too much logic there Sir
Is there in your view any other group MORE entitled to this land than the Israelis? Don´t forget how many times they have offered to abstain from large territories for a Palestinian state.
@@jaspalgahunia4726they have a magic fairy tale book that says so = win
@@oller7113 it doesn't really matter if I identify any particular group. That is entirely besides the point as far as the logic is concerned.
A better question is can you determine any logically consistent reason why the occupants of the geographic area prior to the Jewish Kingdoms do not have more claim to the area?
Isrrael is an aparttheid regime.
I love your show and this was one of the most important interviews! Thanks to the amazing Melanie Phillips it's clear that if you don't know your history a false narrative can rise and convince the entire world of a complete lie.
I feel like there's no part of her that wants to remotely understand the other side. Its thinking like this that makes peace impossible. Konstantin makes a great point, it doesn't matter what your heritage is - when its generations removed. You can't force people out of their homes because you have a historical tie to the land... its a tinder box of an ideology and not a way forward. Everyone has ties to everywhere in the remote past.
correct. it's a similar thinking that demands reparations from me to a historically oppressed population for sins committed by people with a similar skin pigmentation to mine.
What about the people of different pigmentation, who carried out the same acts of slavery.
Barbarians begot the enslavement of "lesser" people.
Nothing to do with race. It happened for thousands of years.
America is the Greatest country in the world, bcuz of the idea, idea(l)'s, enshrined into our bill of rights/ rights given to oppose an overreaching guuebment based on a model set forth by the constitution.
An individual is "free" to govern their lives, they're not subjugated to the whims of the elite class.
The problem is subversion and comfort.
If we want to stay "free" we need to educate ourselves to the games played against us.
Would this woman subscribe to the notion that Britain for instance would have the right to expel everyone that could not trace their lineage back to say 10BC.
Indeed. Tell that to the "Yes" voters here in Australia.
@joem7799 Can you tell me where the Christian ancestral homeland is
It's crazy how people can be totally ignorant of their own biases. There's no chance of a peace when both parties think this way.
Perhaps there is no solution other than to fight it out.
@@MrHellweasel
Might as well.
There was a chance up until Iran told hamas to start this war.
Saudi Arabia was very close to signing the abramaic accords which would have normalized the relationsip between Israel and them. Where Saudi go the arab world follow.
@@DanielWijk You are 100% correct. I remember a few years ago there was very nearly a two state solution and a solid road map for peace on the table. Things were looking great for the first time in decades. Sadly Yasaaraft buckled to the pressure of those war mongering mad and insane ayatollahs in Iran. Iran is ipulling all the strings in the ME.
Melanie P is ignorant of her own biases
Scrolling through UA-cam, looking for an honest, balanced discussion of the situation. Still looking.
here's one for you - send everyone that claims to either be "palestinian" or "israeli" back to their precious land and let them all sort their own shit out. Not our problem. btw, you can be of Palesitinian or Arab origin, or Jewish ancestry and still live in our country - just don't try claiming all that previous bullshit. You left that behind when you moved here. Much the same as I have Italian ancestry - I'm not walking around wearing an Italian flag and going "Hey, watsamattayou?"
Spot on. This woman is asinine.
@@BeautifulGirl735everything she is said is documented history.
@@mannedhandlethe talmud/torah is not history
The Torah is not history, huh? You are ignorant. Is the Qur'an history? @@SPDRM
I love Melanie Philips. She is a woman of integrity and speaks the truth. I always learn something from her. She is absolutely right about the Jewish presence in Palestine long for the creation of Islam or Muslims rose to power in the M.E.
That has nothing to do with anything. So what about 2000 plus years ago. You talk about religion, what about ethnicity? The Lebanese have proven to be the closest to the Canaanites so do they have a claim? People move over time, religious conversations, pro-creation with other ethnicities and so on. You do not then have a claim 2000 years later. The land had inhabitants who had been there centuries, that is the fact. Those inhabitants were massacred and driven into refugee status by invading europeans, that is a fact. Those inhabitants are still oppressed to this day.
@@KX-12345 Those 'inhabitants' massacred the Jews repeatedly, starting in 1834, culminating in widespread ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population in August 1929.
Yeah this is a whitewashing of the brutal colonialism that created Israel.
So you mention Lebanon, so tell me what happened to all the Lebanese Christians once Lebanon was invaded by the Muslims?
You must be smoking Crack just like Melanie.
I don't think the UK and US modelled themselves on Ancient Israel? Alfred the Great - modelled on a fusion of Roman and Christian values I'd guess? Then Magna Carta, which was not modelled on Israel (or perhaps anything else), but in and of itself formed the rough template of the rule of Law for the medieval age and influenced the genuis of the US constitution (US based on UK and Rome)
It’s a half truth.
It came out of what is known as British Israeliism.
Where wealthy upper class types in Britain who were obsessed with biblical stories tried to link biblical events geographically to Britain and suggest that Britain actually was Israel.
This then led somewhat indirectly to the push for the foundation of a Jewish homeland and the popularity of the Zionist movement.
The whole of Western culture is based on Judeo Christian ethics.
Christianity is rooted in judaism and the west is founded in Christian values. judeo christian much?
Your pretty much there, you just missed the part where christianity is an offshoot of Judaism and holds many of the same tenets!
Well, the notion of an anointed king second only to the Abrahamic god was first a Jewish concept. That same concept is at the root of (historical) English common law, and manifests itself through several doctrines (e.g. royal prerogative; “the king can do no wrong” etc.). There are obviously many many differences between the English model and the ancient Jewish kingdom of antiquity. But I think that’s what she is talking about.
So should we all leave America and give the native Americans back their land as well?
Exactly!
I was just thinking that
The world would've been a lot more peaceful in the last 70 years if you'd never got there in the first place. So yes please.
@MrPotatoMind false but nice bigotry on display
The entire world improved because of the American idea. The first country to put the liberty of the individual as the most fundamental aspect. Without it, you'd have no freedom to speak what you just said. There would be no free trade around the world because the US made the seas safe. For centuries the people of the world have recognized this and made the US the #1 destination for immigration.
There is no singular "the native Americans", they were all fighting each other constantly and committed some of the most abominable and gruesome acts against each other before Europeans arrived. A peaceful utopian coexistence it was not. Which of the other 200+ nations carved out nations inside their own borders for those they displaced? Which other nation had creeks and rivers run red with the blood of white soldiers who sacrificed themselves to end slavery? The UK abolished slavery very shortly before the US, so we weren't the first but they didn't have much to abolish by comparison.
Everything above is a fact. The world is in decline because the US is in decline and orders of elite hyper-weathy wish for our destruction so they can take all the power, control and resources. "You'll own nothing and be happy" they say and deluded, misguided and ignorant people go along with it.
How she describes the Bedouin etc people of Palestine- "having no nation, not being a collective identity" - is exactly describing the Aboriginal people of Australia pre colonisation. Be careful the arguments you make - justification for one group is condemnation for another.
Thank you
In America the Cherokee did have a "Nation", and created a written language. When President Jackson wanted to move them out of Georgia, the Cherokee Nation took their case to the Supreme Court and won. Jackson moved them out anyway.
The point is Bedouins didn't even consider themselves "Palestinian". It's an invented term to culturally appropriate the ancestral homeland of the Jews.
Palestinians didn't demand a state until after 1967.
Before the resistance was to get back land for Jordan. The area was Greater Syria under British. And yes many people were semi nomadic and fully nomadic. Incl the borders of Saudi Arabia and Iraq too. If you visit the region the bedouins explain how they moved between large regions in very recent history.
Its not inaccurate
It's.a bit yes and no
Bear in mind that our notion of sovereign nation state with well defined boundaries as mean to organise our affairs wasnt universal and relatively recent invention based out of Westphalia system
One effect of colonisation was to hammer that notion on many people who didn't think of themselves as one ppl and who didn't use to organise things along that line
What got left out of the conversation is that the Jews *_bought_* land when they returned to the land of Israel. When you buy land, that isn’t “kicking” someone out of their home. The creation of a country, and people’s individual homes, are two different things. Thats why millions of Arabs live in Israel. Their individual homes are Palestinian land in a Jewish country. Just like the home of a Palestinian Brit is Palestinian land in a British country. Many Palestinians however fled Israel to get out of the way of the Arab countries that invaded Israel in 1948. That isn’t Israel kicking anyone out of anything.
If I were to follow this logic, then Belgium (I am just taking an example now, being Belgian) urgently needs to adjust its borders. The entire north of present-day France and the south of the Netherlands belonged to the people of the original Belgians in Gaul. Later, from 20 B.C. to the 5th century, Gallia Belgica ("Belgian Gaul") was a province of the Roman Empire in the northeastern part of Roman Gaul, in what today is mostly northern France, Belgium and Luxembourg, along with parts of the Netherlands and Germany. Should we reclaim that territory?
Yes, Belgium deserves its place in the sun!
Go for it!!
you can under the condition that you introduce better quality fries, bread, and patisserie
A lot of the original Belgians moved to England... expect about 15 million Belgians to return and claim a piece of Flanders.
You can have limburg
I felt she became highly defensive when Kisin challenged her after the mid way mark. I also disagree with her statement that 'the Jews were there first so it should belong to them'.
Read some European history lady, most of Europe had different 'owners' as it were throughout history.
Here in Canada, according to her reasoning, we should return ALL land to the Indigenous, if they ask / demand it...? . It came across to me that I think she is biased. (big time).
And, according to her logic, she should be kicked out her house in the UK to make way for the descendants of the ancient Britons - the Welsh, Corniche, etc.
And indigenous Native Americans should rise up and take back their land to kick out the white msn who stole their land and placed them on reservations. Her logic
I wonder if she stands by her statement that 'the Arabs didn't want a country of their own', the levels of self delusion are off the scale.
Didn't the Jewish people kick out the Canaanites from that area originally? What about Canaanite rights?
Yes, did she forget the Canaanites?
I feel sorry for the innocent people on both sides. There are no winners in this.
Anti-war is the only stance for rational and truly intelligent beings.
Sensible comment
You're wrong. The West is the winner.
You are correct. The video of the 4yr old boy kidnapped and getting poked with sticks and pushing his head is beyond heartbreaking
There are no innocent people in this conflict.
Innocent people would have resolved their differences!
Briliiant. Clear and understandable. I learned more in 10 minutes listening to her than years of 'bits and pieces' and half-facts. Sharing this with friends. Thanks.
That was an excellent explanation from the Jewish point of view. Would it be possible to have a guest with a point of view from the Palestinian side, just for fairness.
I bet not. Her take is extremely biased & they ate it up.
They gave the Palestinian view at the beginning.
@@ruthhorowitz7625and then didn't attempt to defend it at all.
Pretty biased I'd say.
This is where it began .. islam attacking Jews and Christians, continues today and until Islam dominates the world
كتاب الجهاد والسير32 The Book of Jihad and Expeditions
(21)Chapter: Expulsion of Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula(21) باب إِخْرَاجِ الْيَهُودِ وَالنَّصَارَى مِنْ جَزِيرَةِ الْعَرَبِ
It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say:
I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.
وَحَدَّثَنِي زُهَيْرُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، حَدَّثَنَا الضَّحَّاكُ بْنُ مَخْلَدٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، ح وَحَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ رَافِعٍ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لَهُ - حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ جُرَيْجٍ، أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو الزُّبَيْرِ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ جَابِرَ بْنَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، يَقُولُ أَخْبَرَنِي عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ " لأُخْرِجَنَّ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى مِنْ جَزِيرَةِ الْعَرَبِ حَتَّى لاَ أَدَعَ إِلاَّ مُسْلِمًا " .
Just read their scripture and you'll see the other point of view. It's not very nuanced.
So what about Palestinian Christians ? They existed and still exist.
😂She dose not a knowledge them,, I mean if Palestinian are budeion /Gypsy,,, do you think she care about the Christians
Elias Chaccour wrote in Blood Brothers that villages were seized by the IDF early on after the foundation of Israel.
These days there are many good things in Israel but through the settlements Israel is taking more and more territory.
The Hamas attack makes things massively worse and of course Israel will fight back hard.
Whataboutism is not an argument. The original Christians were Jewish.
ahahah what an absurd comment, the original inhabitants of that land even before judaism was created were Semitic and Arab tribes, so the proto palestinians of today were already in the land from the beginning.
@@truth-uncensored2426 Careful. Even the Arabs claim Arabs began their existence after the arrival of Abraham.
On the other hand, the coastal areas (Phonecia, Philistia) were populated by "The Sea Peoples" whose origins were outside of the area.
One minute she says "Palestine" was invented by the Romans @3:40, then she says there was no Palestine until it was invented in the 1960s @11:15. Maybe I'm not drunk enough to understand this.
100% spot on
Palestine was renamed by the romans but there were no peoples called Palestinians. Ottoman Turks ruled for the majority post millennium, bar the 7th century (I think), and after World War One the League of Nations gave Britain the land.
She's a well known rightwinger who is lying.
@@garygranato9164the land was dubbed “Palestine” by the romans as an insult to the Jews. The name comes from Philistines, the ancient enemy of the Jewish kingdom from antiquity. It would be like naming Seoul “Tokyo”, which would be extremely offensive to a Korean.
In contrast, the Palestinian “nation” is a vert recent invention.
It’s the difference between the piece of land, called Palestine for centuries, and the grouping of people called Palestinians. Those are not the same, and did not arise at the same moment.
I hope this clarifies what she was saying.
Check a map. There is no Palestine.
Melanie Phillips is totally right. There is antisemitism on the left. I decided to get involved in the anti-war (Iraq) cause during the Bush/Blair invasion and was shocked by some of the remarks I came across and the double standards involved in this. She's also right that if you're arguing purely from historicity, the Jewish people have a superior claim. I was surprised by how many people in Ireland, where the vast majority had a religious-based education when I was growing up, couldn't acknowledge this, as it's inherent in Judeo-Christian tradition. That said, I do have massive sympathy for the Palestinians, caught in the middle between Hamas and Israel, just trying to go about their lives. Conditions in Gaza are unacceptable. But it's possible to recognize this without engaging in anti-semitic rhetoric that distorts history.
Semitic people or Semites is an obsolete term for an ethnic, cultural or racial group associated with people of the Middle East, including Arabs, Jews, Akkadians, and Phoenicians..
Zionists have utilized propaganda and manipulation to lump all Jewish people together in their zionist group, which any Jews with ethics/morals reject outright. Generally anyone considered "antisemetic" or claims it today, actually means they are against zionism..
Israeli government puts Jewish people all over the world at risk. If there were a Christian apartheid state that had been settling illegally into a country they were literally controlling the water supply too etc, and having boasted about it basically being a concentration camp, while funding the radical terrorists since 2005... I wonder.. pretty sure if they tried lumping in Christians in with them and their ideology it would not fly, and people would recognize the truth of the situation much clearer.
She gave herself away by misrepresnting his argument as soon as she spoke it literally took seconds. She added the whole "had no connection to". Nobody said that. Better to argue against that than the whole balfour declaration bit eh.
Not only that, her assertion that the Jewish nation back then were the same people as today's Jews is asinine. Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews from Europe have a small portion of their ancient Levantine heritage from that region. They are heavily admixed with European and Turkic ancestry. It would be like the very mixed Hispanics of Latin America claiming rights to Spain while ignoring their native American and even African heritage.
@@danielstockley5631Great Analogy and makes logical sense. Impressive!!!
Exactly. We want to know what legal claim do these people have to go in and take people out their homes today. She knows she has no argument
My thoughts exactly
I agree with you all.
As if history was so clean and clear that it would ascribe a piece of land to one religious group.
Genesis was an estate agent.
And the kicker being that the father of political Zionism, who pushed for a Jewish "ethno" state, European Theodor Herzl, was an ATHEIST who had contempt for religious Jews. So a God he didnt even believe in, "promissed" him and his other white supremacist friends, that land. 🙄
That's why they split it between the 2 people's that lived there. Jordan - Muslim administered, Israel - Jewish administered.
20% of Israel's population is Muslim. They serve in Israel's government. Name 1 Muslim country in the region with a large Jewish population or Jews in their government.
No of course not, but Israel is uniquely evil.
57 Moslem nations.
The history is very clear.
The guest becomes immediately suspect when they declare that the US and Britian are modelled after the Kingdoms of Israel.
In UK, the Kingdom of Israel only applies to the Coronation.
Everything else, is modelled today on the Roman Republic, where before Cromwell, it was modelled on the Roman Empire.
I also find her comments on how the British responded to her, and the parallels with Maori in both the UK, and NZ. In the past, they said the exact same comments that she mentioned here.
Just switch the term Jew for Maori, and you have the idea. With NZ entering an election in few days, it is worrying to see the right pedalling the same here in NZ in the open that was said to her in a conversation.
"They were a people in a particular area of land, which they governed according to laws they made... and they defended."
She claims that, for this reason, the British and American systems are modelled on Israel. It describes practically every country throughout history. It's so vague as to be utterly meaningless.
Both the US and UK are heavily influenced by Christianity and Christianity has its roots in the Kingdom of Israel. So that’s probably what she means.
I think you might want to consider Christianity’s roots in Judaism before dismissing that comment. The notion of an anointed king second only to the abrahamic god was first a Jewish concept. Fundamental principles of English common law (transplanted to the colonies) flow from that, and other aspects of abrahamic law.
Uk is a christian nation , christianity is an offshoot of Judaism and holds many of the same tenets so the comment is made on the christian ideology, and in that frame she is correct, you misunderstand her.
She says Palestine wants Israel gone but it seems Israel has nearly got rid of Palestine.
That's incredibly stupid. Desire to do something is not the same as one's ability to see it through. Just because the Palestinian Arabs haven't been able to wipe out all of the Jews does not mean they have no desire to do so. They've repeatedly made that sentiment clear, and their recent actions (and plenty others before that) very thoroughly demonstrate their intentions. Israel is certainly far from innocent of wrongdoing, and I don't like many of the ways they've treated their neighbors, but they actually have the power to completely wipe them off the map and have thus far refrained from doing so, and unlike the Palestinian Arabs (or at least Hamas, whose rise I will point out was partially backed and funded by Israel to beat tue PLO whom they considered a greater threat, ironically enough), Israel actually attempts to warn civilians of impending attack to minimize civilian cashalties. Regardless of how you look at this, this is not a bad guys versus good guys scenario. Like most wars, it's bad guys versus worse guys (I'll leave you to decide for yourself who is which) with good and bad reasons for grievance and the countless piles of innocent dead bodies from both sides in the wake of the endless violence and chaos.
The only reason a single Palestinian remains in Palestine is because of pressure on Israel not to exterminate them. Israel has taken a very long approach and eventually there will be no Palestinians in Palestine at all.@@Tyler_W
@@nathanmagnuson2589 Bollocks!
The Jews suffered under nazis not too long ago and now are sadly the perpetrators. The victim has become the perpetrator. The cycle continues and The Almighty is watching
Learning history is not your strong suit.
She is a historian now 🤔 “what you said was wrong”. “they were basically kicked out” a long long long time ago so “long story short” “um basically “ your right Is she for real?
there once was history, now we have herstory and if its up to her we will have jewstory
@@Rem_NL she’s an algorithm
No, she’s just happen to tell the truth which is not hard to learn.
Her argument fails when she said the Arabs who lived there had no country or nation. So if you lived in a place for generations but you don't have a specific name for your people that doesn't mean you don't belong there?
Her argument fails yet you acknowledge she is right.
Apologists for Islamic terror always cite “international law” when decrying Israel.
Guess it only works one way.
Bingo!
Yea her logic is atrocious. I understand this is a generalization, but I’ve noticed Jews to consistently have logic that is subpar to the rest of their intellect
They didn't have an independent identity, and huge numbers of them moved into the area because of the economic opportunities provided by the Jewish state building.
It’s also a lie because Britain itself called it Palestine before the Israel concept was even brought forth as an proposal
How can a people who went across the world, mixed with others, and many don't even practice the common religion, claim a land that theh hadn't ruled in 2000 years?
Because they feel entitled, and should be given whatever they want because of the holocaust
Palestinian ruled to there for 2000 years?
Until 1967 it was Jordan and Egyptian land.
Where's the cutoff for when you're no longer entitled to your homeland?
@@bajskuk agreed, as a white european male forced out of africa millenia ago, i will claim back what is rightfully mine
because they deserve it. Every people should have their own country. The Jews didn't have theirs. That's why the Holocaust happened. They couldn't flee anywhere. Now that they have a home Jews can flee and live there.
Have you ever asked yourself why there are 0% Jews in the Middle East? They all fled persecution and started over in Israel.
The Arabs have 57 countries to choose from. Why can't the Jews have 1for them? Only 1
The term "Palestine" first appeared in the 5th century BCE when the ancient Greek historian Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê"
Really, what is the reference, apart from Herodotus wrote? The first mention I have found is 100 bc from the Romans.
@@bro3545presumably that's why the Romans called it Palestine, to insult the Jews by giving it a name in reference to one of the rulers of one of the Hebrews' historical enemies and subjugators.
@@bro3545 What is the reference? He wrote only one book didn't he? Search it online or check your copy of it.
Nope, the romans invented it!
Not the same place. Philistines were not Jews.
"Phillips expressed opposition to Irish independence, declaring on 7 March 2017 in her column in The Times, that the "most troublesome bits" of the UK are "showing signs of disuniting". For her, Scottish nationalism and Irish republicanism are cultural phenomena "rooted in romanticism and myth", while Englishness "came to stand proxy for all the communities of the British Isles". In particular, she wrote "Ireland itself has a tenuous claim to nationhood" because the Irish Free State was only established in 1922. She denounced "attempts at secession by tribes" in Northern Ireland". Now what is this other than hypocrisy?
It IS hypocrisy. Great point
That very hypocrisy is the heart of the reason why they’re not well viewed around the world. And this nonsense she states about India and China being pro-Jewish is laughable. They’re about as pro-Jewish as Putin.
I think you can draw clear parallels to an independent United Ireland and Palestine in that they have never existed in History ie. romanticism and myth. They have also both used violence and propaganda to garner support from uninformed people from around the world and have somehow managed to diminish the fact that the IRA and Hama's are brutal murderers who have killed women and children indiscriminately. There are many other parallels - too many to go into on here.
@@BobHodasyou know there are lots of Arabs that consider them selves Isreali. Isreali isn't really an ethno state.
So what do you suggest? That the Jews and the Arabs live harmoniously together? The actions of Hamas on Saturday show us that this is not an option.
So, what other peoples have an unalienable right to claim a piece of land as theirs, for all eternity? How far back do they have to go to prove their ownership? And more interestingly, who will arm and finance them in their claim?
Hamas claims an "unalienable" right to kill Jews as they are the enemy of G_d. Very different.
We already accept that the indigenous people of every land colonized by Europeans have an inalienable right to it. Don't we? The Jewish people are the indigenous people - or at the very least, certainly ONE of the indigenous people - of the land formerly called Palestine. They pre-dated the first Arabs in the region by at least 1000 years. Over 75% of that territory, Jordan, is now occupied and governed by Arabs. No Jews are even allowed to live there. So why is the Jewish people's right to the tiny remainder so contested?
@@KathyPrendergast-cu5ci not necessarily. If an actual country was there then more so yes. Nomadic tribes have no claim to any land. Native American tribes hated each other and constantly took over and lost territory. Look up what the comanches did to peaceful tribes who did settle and grow crops. It’s all a mess with no easy answers but violence like we just saw should always be condemned.
@@KathyPrendergast-cu5ci It is simpler than that: If you had to live in the ME - where would you choose? There is literally only one place. I'd prefer that option to no places.
Ultimately, all of it is, in a way, irrelevant now, because we're in 2023 now and people live where people live.
We can't go back to 500 BCE just like we can't go back to the 1920s.
What we currently have is a functioning Israeli state that is a country with people in it whose neighbors have officially committed to wiping off of the face of the earth and killing every man, woman, and child. Even if Israel wanted to make peace, that hatred is not going anywhere because it's largely based on religion and history.
So their options are to leave or defend themselves.
Melanie Phillips writes for the Guardian, I congratulate you for being opened minded to interview her. She seems to be very biased.
Yeah, not feeling a lot of balance in her assessment.
Her views on Israel seem to contradict the broad Guardian consensus though.
God forbid should a fellow jew defend us from nazi arabs and their nazi supporters
@@Sneakyboson It's the eternal "Zionist Jewish Left" vs "Communist pro-Arab left" factional fight. She gets to be the token zionist on the Guardian staff.
No, she doesn't and hasn't for years.
I went to school in the 70 in Spain, Catalonia and I always learnt that they had connection with the land, what is happening now or with the people went school after me is just crazy, in which moment the history told in schools changed or is not told anymore.
You two need to start a news channel. Far more trust in you than BBC
It has been confirmed that Benjamin Netanyahu let this happen on purpose as a pretext to eliminate Gaza from the map.
This will solidify his leadership position for a long time which is what he really wanted.
BBC is the UK Pravda like the NY Times
This lady is full of boo boo.
UK & US based on Israel? 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
The Jews were in Israel until AD 70, when the Romans kicked them out during the Jewish Revolt.
R
You need to look into them abit more.
The one constant thing about this conflict is that the amount of lies on both sides makes it impossible to be certain of what the truth is, for those of us on the outside.
Sadly at this point all media around the world is poorly concealed propaganda. =/
Just the one side. The Islamic "side" - which attacks the rest of the west too.
All I’m certain is that both sides are victims and offenders. And I think we would say that about most historical wars if they were happening before our eyes; the deal is that now we have internet and so far no winners to mold history
All you need to know is that those that benefit from war will slaughter any and all useless eaters on both sides.
It's not impossible though. The truth about Israel's modern and ancient founding is well documented. And it is well documented that many of the Muslim governments around Israel do not want peace with Israel. They want its complete destruction.
"...the Jews never left the land. . . They were always coming back to it."
SIMPLY WOW. REAL GENIUS THIS LADY.
I got that too.
I mean, so are the irish going to france, doesn't mean they can reclaim it. Or the spanish that conquered most of europe, doesn't mean they can reclaim it. Or the Mongols that conquered half the world under genshin khan, doesn't mean they can reclaim it. See my point?
@@rapidlovingthose peoples culture did not develop on the lands they conquered. Spanish people have a right to Spain, Irish people to Ireland. Jewish people to Israel.
@@Joeshapiro7 that's not true through. culture isn't a value to determine who rightfully owns something. Or whom it should belong too. We'd have a difficult topic in for example north america and australia, to name 2 places.
@rapidloving you could make an argument that when the settlers moved overtime, they became detached from their own culture and founded somewhat of a new hybrid and eventually multi-ethnic culture. In Australia, because they were convicts, it was even easier to become fundamentally different once removed from Britain. In Quebec, the British conquest detached Quebecois from French culture, which led to them having a separate one. So you could argue that many aspects of the settler culture are indigenous to those lands. That would not necessarily lessen Native American claims to self determination or to compensation for atrocities done on the basis of ancestry. It would however provide a framework for all Americans to live peacefully. In fact that is why Native American sovereignty over their reservations exists. With regards to Israel and Palestine, I would say that while it legitimizes the Jewish connection to the land. It also legitimizes the Palestinian one. One could make the argument that Palestinian peoples were nomadic peoples who had no unifying connection until recently. Therefore, you could make the argument that all universal Palestinian culture has been defined by opposition to Zionism and that without Zionism there would be no Palestinians. However, by making the argument that rights can be defined by a culture springing from the land, you can argue that even if Palestinian Nationalism is a result of the romantic period of nationalism of the late 1800's that Palestinians still have the right to an organism to help them continue to develop their culture in the land where it started. Obviously, in a peaceful setting, it would be defined by other things than opposition to Zionism. But the main point here is that recognition of Jewish connections or Jewish rights does not lessen Palestinian connections. Ideally, it would not lessen Palestinians' rights either but provide a way for two indigenous peoples to share the land rather than bicker to the end of days over it. If anything both Jewish culture and Palestinian culture have stronger connections to the lands because they completely originated there as opposed to being a cultural split off of something from elsewhere.
Thank you so much for this deeply enlightening interview. Its filled in a lot of holes in my very limited grasp of the situation.
"The jews never left, they always came back" is a strange statement 😖
Yah what they came back for vacation? So they don’t live there anymore. Wtf does that even mean lmao
@@AtracBreezy yeah I don't know how you come back to somewhere you never left.🤷
Lol, like you couldn't say the same about Arabs. Gee, it's almost like her entire argument is nothing but the special pleading fallacy and an appeal to emotion. XD
Mass delusions are not known for their logical consistency. "Next year in Jerusalem" is proof that we always intended to return to the land we never left.
@@peterblanch2603They were taken away as slaves.
"They alone had ruled it"
After saying countles groups ruled it
"occupied" "invaded" ... etc, pretty basic english
Isrrael is an aparttheid regime.
Sue contradicts herself repeatedly. On one occasion she says they never left, and later she says they returned. How can someone return without first leaving? She is illogical in her argument.
@@Shankar-Bhaskar like basic english there is basic history
as a nation Israel was the only nation that ruled it. Others ruled the land as a part of a greater empire, such as the Ottoman Turks, The Roman Empire, ect.
It can't be an honest conversation if one has a bias
You could honestly tell you has bias, and conversation go on.
I think it can, if one is honest about one's bias. But the logical conclusion of a discussion between people with an opposing bias is that they end up agreeing to disagree. How to resolve the problem from there? Both sides have to accept compromise - then it can become a good faith negotiation. IN THEORY
@@ashbrown1212 In that case, value is in public discussion. You see biases, and can judge both sides.
An "honest conversation" between three non-experts on the issue, including a guest who's "expertise" in quite frankly anything at all is most generously described as questionable.
You're only saying that because you're incapable of disputing a single point that she made.
Prove me wrong. Choose one point that she made and show why it's wrong.
Oh, you can't.
@@MrJREllmanShe’s never said anything entirely wrong, but she has made claims that ridiculous. Jews did have a presence there, but there were even Muslims and Christians with a presence there. Having a presence means jack shit. If you aren’t living there, it was never your home.
Although “Palestinian” didn’t exist as a term, there were definitely people lived there with governance under the Ottoman empire before its defeat in WW1.
It’s next to a massive body of fresh water. There were definitely people living there surrounded by plenty of civilizations. They just weren’t called “Palestinians”. They were Ottomans before 1917. But there were still people living there.
@@MrJREllmanAs other comments here have pointed out, she originally claimed Konstantin was wrong about everything he said, then later mentioned that Jews always had a presence there, then later mentioned that Jews started “coming back”.
That all seems awfully contradictory. If they already had a presence there, who was coming back? And isn’t that exactly what Konstantin pointed out in the beginning?
She kept objecting to everything Konstantin said about what happened, but she blatantly lied here somewhere. Konstantin essentially pointed out that they were living there 2000 years ago so they believe it’s their right. Which she says he was wrong about but clearly essentially believed. Nothing she said contradicted the idea that she believed Israel is essentially a bunch of people who had ancestors living there 2000 years ago and are now starting to take it back. In fact, the fact that she called it their “homeland” suggests she clearly believes… exactly what Konstantin had said: that since their ancestors lived there 2000 years ago, that they have a right to the land.
@@virgodem I think she was making the point that there have always been Jews living there. Not just 2000 years ago but since. As she said they were called Palestinians since the Roman empire renamed the region.
@@virgodemYou just sprayed a dozen half criticisms without making a single point.
If you can just choose one point that you disagree with, it will look less like you're just desperate to find something, anything that you can to disagree with.
But I'll pick on the one thing that is nearly a point in your comments: the statement that because Jews always had a presence in the land, they couldn't have come back. Most Jews were ethnically sent into exile by the Romans but a small number remained. The land was considered holy and a homeland by the Jews for 2,000 years; both those Jews that remained and those that didn't. Those that didn't remain, finally returned after the holocaust.
Where is the contradiction in that?
Once u commit violence, u can only expect retaliation.
What a mess.
Very good. What words come out of our mouth and what we put down on paper can also be hard to take back in the future. Think hard before proceeding!
vis pacem para bellum - if you want peace, prepare for war
@@joshm7279A man of culture I see.. Hannibal Vs Scipio😉
very true for both sides, and that is exactly why this mess is happening in Israel right now.
Free Palestine and give it back to Greater Syria 🇵🇸🇸🇾✨✊
Mr Hitchens said it best .. "Religion has a veto on these lands." There can't be a compromise when God or Allah has told you, "You have a divine right to these lands.
gosh thank you, where is the Hitchens of the day that hasn’t lost their mind?
I worship the sun God and he owns the earth so I own this planet.
Zionist are secularists. Their claim cites the Bible. Palestinians are not only Muslims. Their claim is not a religious one. Their claim is that they have been cleansed from their homes. Whether you call them Palestinians or nothing at all, they lived there.😊
There's more to the Jewish people's right to that land than religion.
@@dalethomasdewitt- Yeah me too.
So her argument is ‘we were here first’ LOL. Really? Let’s apply that logic everywhere then, see how we get on…
But we know the Jews were the only people in Israel... Because their holy book describes how they genocided the rest of the tribes lmao
I think if one were to delve a bit deeper she would say that her people were given the land by God. I have often heard in the past from friends of her persuasion that it is the other religions that are extreme. The creation of Israel and the reasoning behind it paints a different picture.
@@airstrip1836 The funny thing about that assertion is that many Jews, like Theodor Herzl, are in fact atheists, so what God promissed them that land? Israel is colonisation of Arab land by Europeans, pure and simple.
@@airstrip1836 This is the root of things that seems to be omitted from a lot of commentary. There exists this fundamental belief that the land inherently belongs to them because according to scripture God granted it to them, and the intent is to somehow restore it, and anyone outside of the tribe is effectively a disposable obstacle to that happening.
@@TheLearnedFool
Yes in an effort to rid humanity of practices such as child and human sacrifice; the Jews (according to the Torah in any case) were instructed to eliminate from existance groups engaging in behavior such as cannibalism and human and child sacrifice that are anathema to human survival and flourishing. The idea being these practices present such a danger to humanity that a surviving member of such a community can not be permitted to rediscover the practice and therefore none from such a group can be permitted to live.
Now, take those stories as historical fact or religious narrative they do present a very interesting moral dilemma; one that only can be ordained by the Devine and can never be instigated by man.
Though, I am not sure if a theological discussion was something you were looking to pursue with your comment.......we shall see.
Imagine an Indian Tribe in north America...that was kicked off its land several centuries ago.
They start returning to their "homeland" and start buying large blocks of real estate...to be annexed into the closest reservation as approved by the Federal government.
Those locally initiate an attack on the Indians and the Indians fight back and win. Some locals are displaced.
Is this analogous?
yes, that's pretty much what went down. That was land owned by the British, not by the Arabs, let alone the "palestinians" who didn't even exist in 1948. At last somebody who can use a brain.
@@toniomiklo2406 Land was governed by the Brit’s, not owned. Small farmers actually lived on parcels of farm land for years.
I hope there will be another interview with someone of Palestinian decent and points of view
Yes, exactly.
I doubt that.
I wish they will bring in someone from Palestinian this was what came into my mind because is good to hear from both side
@@rgs6236Because it's fair to hear both sides. Don't you think?
@@velikimedved he obviously don't but i do!
She is clearly very biased. I get why she is, but I can't take her seriously, when the bias is so obvious.
In what way?
What did she say that was untrue? What important truth did she omit?
It's not that what she is saying is not "true" it is that it is biased by her feelings. A Palestinian could tell you the same history and it would be coloured the other way.
Palestine has been systematically sqeezed, while living in an aparthied. She tells it as if the land was always the state of Israel, which isn't accurate.
By her argument, Britain could claim ownership over half the planet and just force people out of their homes.
I wonder would she use that argument to give Ireland back the 6 counties of Northern Ireland. After all, at no point has there been no Irish men and women living there.
@@Kildergcowboy Oh really? Could a Palestinian tell you about the time that piping was shipped into Jerusalem to fix their overburdened sewage system, and Israel instead used the piping to make rockets to murder Palestinians with?
When did the charter for Israel call for a jihad until there is Jewish state in Gaza and the West Bank?
Those were not rhetorical questions, Nazi Youth.
Moreover, Melanie, it is important to add that they maintained a continuous presence since the Romans exiled them.
With the hospitality of the Muslims.
@@fredhall6525If you consider progroms and being considered a “dhimi” “hospitality”
@@privateprivate4315pogroms. And it was not the Muslims’ house in which to be hospitable. They’re from the Arabian peninsula.
Again, that means nothing and isn't a good argument. So did the Caananites after the Israelis tried to gncde them. According to genetic research most Palestinians are descended from Caananites and other indigenous peoples. "There were Jewish people on the land" does not mean "this land is thus only for Jews." even in the torah and bible, Jews are not native to modern day Israel or Palestine. Moreover, "we wusz here furst" is not a good argument to begin with, because that would mean 99% of modern nation states are invalid or have the right to conquer or take large parts of other nations.
@@privateprivate4315 I consider it a whole lot better than the inquisition. It was the Ottomans who send their own navy to pick up the Jews fleeing from Spain. It was the Germans that comitted the Holocaust. It was the Russians that persecuted the Jews relentlessly. Muslims by enlarge have been far better hosts to jews than Christians.
Melanie is absolutely awesome, and i use that word in the genuine sense, she speaks with great eloquence and truth.
- But there were nomadic Arabs who lived there.
- Yeah, but they didn't wanted a country of their own.
Apparently those Arabs think otherwise.
They still don't want a country of their own.
In the 1920s arabs in Palestine were successful international merchants with triving Mediterranean trade.
Abraham and Sarah were born in Ur a Mesapotamian city state. They bought land in Caanan in order to have a place to be buried. They BOUGHT some land. They did not steal as many more recent Jews have.
"nomadic" s the key word in your statement. By definition that means they own land or stay in one place. I think that is what you are getting at.
so I can just come with my family to another land and demand a country?
You can't just have more countries on the expense of other people.
Jews have history in this land as a nation.
if you cant convince them , confuse them. exactly what she is doing. any of her point is not making any sense
Palestinian is a fake name they adopted so they could pretend they have a right to a place called Palestine which never existed.
I agree. She states he’s completely wrong then tells a similar narrative. She used a lot of words to more or less say but the Jews were there in ancient times so they alone hold legitimate claim.
Is she willing to give up her land and property to those who occupied it before it was bought and sold?
They are the name stealers.
The fake jewws.
They lie and steal and cheat.
Isrrael is an aparttheid regime.
What made no sense?
The Jews are still the oldest inhabitants and were exiled and had their land forcibly taken from them.
Think of the world if every group who lived somewhere 2,000 years ago showed up with guns and reclaimed that land?....
That would be awful; good thing it's not at all what happened.😆
Think if all the native Indians from US and Canada where to do this. We don’t have to go back 2000 years only a-few hundred for gods sakes. Bla bla bla this doesn’t give the right for the Zionist to commit the mistreatment that had been bestowed onto them. Sickening the power, money and corruption that backs this endless unrest.
@@KathyPrendergast-cu5ciThe Nakba, the 1948 catastrophe???!!!
Which other groups can you think of that have cultural and social continuity from 2000 years ago that don't already assert those rights in the way you say?
@@rashidsalis619 It was a catastrophe only for the side that lost, but losing’s like that. No doubt the Axis powers felt it was a catastrophe when they lost WWII. But they’ve picked themselves up and moved on.
I live in Denmark, and using this woman argument, I want Sweden, Iceland, and Norway back under the crown of Denmark. We also need a Large part of northern Germany, parts of Poland and some of the baltic countries. England was also under Danish rule, and we want it back, It is a similar story for Normandy in France. North America was also discovered by Danes not by "what was his name" from some obscure southern European country - We want North America back! Swedish Vikings, who at the time were under Danish sovereign, also founded Keiv, So Russia should get out of Ukraine it is clearly part of Denmark! ...
Yes! I think I remember reading this recently, that, historically, Ottomans controlled the southern third of Ukraine, Poles did another third and the Kingdom of Denmark controlled the northern third. But since Denmark controlled parts of Poland, I'd also say that the Polish part should be given to Denmark, too. And then, since there are a lot of Danish pastries being sold in the United States, I think the US should become a part of Denmark. At least if Denmark rules us, we'll start having better airplane food here in the States :)
But your points are really spot on. My heritage is both Serbian and Croatian, and I recall all the arguments about Kosovo while growing up in Belgrade, as Serbs considered it their historic land where they battled the Ottomans in 1389, and the Kosovar Albanians considered themselves Illyrian people who predated the Slavs in the region by centuries, so they thought the land was naturally theirs. None of this fighting and arguing really helped anyone in the end, and I think going back to the Israel government's retaliation and bombing raids on Gaza following the Hamas terror attack on Israel's innocent civilians, it's not anti-semitic to call out Israel's militant zionist government (Netanyahu in particular and his trigger-happy generals) on their desire to deliver a collective punishment to entire Gaza population, even though so many citizens of Gaza have nothing to do with Hamas and don't want them. It's wrong to deny an entire population water and electricity. Violence in response to violence is never the answer.
This.
Although she might argue that there was always Jews there, at least in small numbers.
This woman is senile . She needs help. Get her medication.
There have always been Greeks in Istanbul and large parts of Turkey, should we give that back to them? The reasoning that created Israel is honestly insane and completely untenable. @@LukeFlegg
Thank you.. so if the historic kingdom of Israel extended between Nile and Euphrates, then Syria and Egypt should be ready to give it back😅
Better to interview a historian rather than a journalist in this case.
Agreed
agree
so refute the arguments if you have facts, otherwise, no sense pretending Journalists can't also understand history. I notice you, nor anyone agreeing with you made any effort to show why why she said was not worthwhile
@@matthewhunter6421absolutely 💯
@@matthewhunter6421
It's simply her opinion.
Nothing more.
Land has been won and lost throughout the generations, what is the precident to return it?
Don't get me wrong, the actions in the area have been dispicable, the attacking of civilians is never right.
Yet can we not think about it in a little more depth than "Thats mine" or "No its mine" based on a couple of books?
A decent overview but just a couple of points. When the Mandate was established under The League of Nations, the British renamed the area Palestine as a homage to the Romans who had changed Judea to 'Syria Palaestina' as a slight to the Jews when Hadrian crushed their uprising, expelling a large part of the population to ensure it could never happen again. Under the Ottomans, the area was known as South Syria and encompassed modern day Israel and Jordan. Arabs were granted tracts of land by the Ottoman Caliphate to create homesteads, after 3 years they had to pay tribute to the Caliph or lose that land which they never actually owned - They were moved in to the area from neighbouring Arab lands in small numbers, the census of 1882 showed just over 220,000 Arabs across the whole of modern day Israel and Jordan. As Melanie rightly points out, far bigger Arab migration to the area came in the 20th Century when the Jews were rebuilding their soon to be independent state which offered job opportunities which were far better than in the other Arab lands. Furthermore, when Israel was recreated, the constitution of the country stated equality for all citizens irrespective of background which continues to this day - 20% of Israeli citizens are of Arab background and serve at all levels of society, from the Health Service to government, judiciary and even the IDF. Those 'Palestinians' (A Term created in the 60's by PLO leader, Yasser Arafat) who scream about oppression have rejected Israeli citizenship and live under their own rule, in Gaza under Hamas and in Judea & Samaria (Known as 'The West Bank' after renaming by The Jordanians during their 1949-67 occupation) under the PA. Both were given autonomy under the terms of The Oslo Accords in the 90's, an agreement that the Arabs reneged on less than 48 hours after they signed it whilst Israel still honours the terms
That may be the most precise historical explanation I’ve heard! Thank you
Thank you for these insights. Far too many indoctrinated, opinionated know-nothings airing their non-views on this topic.
Can you tell me when the Palestinian leadership rejected Israeli citizenship? After the 1967 war Israeli citizenship was only granted to a few people in the conquered territories (mainly E. Jerusalem and the Golan). The people of the West Bank and Gaza were not (and never were since IIRC).
That is the big sticking point for the Israelis. They don't want Jews to be a minority in the country, hence the populations of Gaza and the West Bank being perpetually "occupied" rather than incorporated into the Israeli republic.
Omg civilisation is lost, and pity the Palestinians that have to suffer the consequences of these narratives 😢😢😢 We are so lost
"Israel still honors the terms"... Hilarious. What is there for Israel not to honor? Did it set a boundary between 2 countries? No. Did it have to hand over the external security to Palestinian authorities? No. They only had to give up the civil administration of a portion of what they occupied, in return of recognition from PLO and int community. Reverse the same deal to Palestinians and they'd happy to 'honor' it as well.
She got real fidgetty when she got a glimpse of her own lies.
what were her lies? and how do you know they were lies?
Everything she said is accurate and true.
@@directorscompany379 She made light of the 700k non-Jew inhabitants in the area in the early 1900s (that had ancestor that had been there for centuries) making the viewer think that it was no big deal to move them off their homes and land.
Except she left a whole lot out. Omissions are lies.
The latter passages of the Quran state that the Jews are to be eradicated. Those passages take precedence over earlier passages
The mental gymnastics from her is actually insane
What a solid argument you’ve presented!
Id love to see Norman Finkelstein come on your show, see what he says.
Absolutely. Get him on!
Norman who?
100%. Phillips is a joke, but not funny.
exactly
Problem there is that this channel deals in truth whereas Finkelstein and fellow travellers like Ilan Pappe do not. I would recommend reading the extremely well researched book 'Industry of Lies' by Ben-Dror Yemini which gives you a far better grasp on both the situation and reality
I think she managed to intimidate the guys a little. Forced to choose I'd plant my flag as pro-Israel; but she became mildly aggressive when challenged, and the guys backed off with haste.
Unfortunately, they had no research to question or challenge her with. So it was just her soap box. Get a Jew and Muslim in the same room with the same amount of historical knowledge and it would be an interesting interview/discussion.
that's not what happened at all, they were letting her spout her psychopathic nonsense so people can see exactly how sick this woman is, they're letting her incriminate herself.
Wusses.
@@raoulduke8720which parts were psychopathic?
Kingdom of Israel only exists as in Jewish religious texts, so her claims are nonsense. There's no such thing as a 'Christian' Zionist. The Jews killed Jesus ffs.
Melanie Phillips needs to explain the explosions of Palestinians in 1948 and how the Israeli government prevented those who temporarily fled the violence of the war (like the Deir Yassin Massacre) from returning to their homes. These Palestinians were never financially compensated for their lost/stolen property and were forced to live in refugee camps. Regardless of how strongly any of these people identified as Palestinian before 1948, exiling them and seizing their property was wrong and their anger at the state of Israel for this is legitimate. To make matters worse, many of these Palestinian refugees were living in refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank, which were occupied by Israel after the 1967 War. Many continue to be forced off their land in the West Bank as Israeli settlers move in. The Israeli settlers have Israeli citizenship and the Israelis control most of the West Bank, making it effectively annexed territory. The problem is that Palestinians living in the West Bank don't have Israeli citizenship, making the West Bank effectively an Apartheid State. Israel can solve this either by pulling all settlers and military forces out of the West Bank and allowing it to be an independent country or by offering the Palestinians living there Israeli citizenship and all the rights that come with it, but the Israeli government does not want to do either of these. Right-wing Israelis, many of whom are in the current government, instead hope to coerce/force Palestinians to leave the West Bank so they can claim the territory as part of Israel. The irony of the whole situation is that Jews have historically experienced exile and disenfranchisement similar to what the Israeli government does to Palestinians today.
850,000+ Jews evicted from Arab countries where they’d lived for up to 2500 years were not compensated; they were lucky to get out alive (as many others were not).
@@patriciakimball8150 Two wrongs don't make a right. Both expulsions were horrible.
The Arabs started a war on the Jews after multiple massacres going all the way to 1948 and made their intentions very clear. Mind you there were many refugees at the time, post world war 2. Only the Arabs leaving Israel were given special treatment, as a testament to both Muslim and Majority of western world animosity toward Jews.
Get Norman Finkelstein on now, show your balance.
I’d like a debate between the two.
Balance is not allowed.
You will be labelled an anti-semiite for even suggesting this.
@@total_leftieit will never happen because they know he would win the debate.
Same reason why Peter Hotez won't debate Peter McCullough et al ..
@@You_Tube000 You are kidding, right? He's all over You Tube.
If everyone had their 'historic rights' the world would be very different.
Mongolia: *cracks knuckles* who's first?
agreed
Im sure Taiwan loves this argument. Infact the Taiwanese people didnt even exsist. They were just some nomadic Taiwanese. This logic is dishonest. Be honest the victors write history, manifest destiny, might makes right.
Claim is a very interesting word.@majorkuntz
@majorkuntz I don't think you understand the meaning of the word 'historically.'
Can you imagine if everyone of Irish descendants decided they had a right to live In Ireland…
Or if the Roma of Europe just decided to go back to India. It would be mayhem for the current population of India.
I believe that Ireland, is the only other country besides Israel to recognize a right of return.
@@LeeTheKnight What, they aren't from there. If you a referring to the indo-aryans they developed in eastern europe and expanded in every direction from there
@@LeeTheKnightThe Roma have a total estimated population of between 2 and 12 million people. India has a population of a billion. They would hardly be noticed.
That's not how it works! 12 million will be a shock to the economy without talking about cultural and religious differences it will be a disaster@@januarysson5633
Thank you Melanie Phillips for telling the truth.
Middle eastern Jews and Palestinians share a lot DNA. Many will share ancestors. Prioritising people because they identify as Jewish as opposed to Palestinian neglects the logic of their shared ancestry if that is what the claim is regarding the right to live on land. You can't just say Palestinians didn't exist, it's the people who decide what their identity is. A nomadic lifestyle isn't a reason to disposess people of land.
Palestinian is a fake name they adopted so they could pretend they have a right to a place called Palestine which never existed.
If they are nomadic, they would not have thought of it being *their* land. Besides, focusing on the particular history is irrelevant when it comes to judging terrorist acts (or punitive demolitions) on innocent people
If theyre ethnic syrians, arabs, chaldeans, egyptians, etc., as much as i may disagree with islam as a Christian, i don't believe jews from america, eastern european ghettoes, britain, and elsewhere have a universal claim to their land simply because practicing jews were once expelled. Nor do arabs or practitioners of their religion have a universal claim to the area simply because of historical mosques and arab ties to biblical Ishmael. It's a matter of warfare, the Zionist settlers of the 20th century built on the land and fought tooth and nail to expand their territory, with the help of their external connections. If local arabs, syrians, and jordanians have to bomb civilians to seize what they think was their property, or their town years ago, then that's just how it is. Its a shame to see european and american governments perpetuating the cycle by sending arms and money to the region constantly, but it also seems that the french and british gave up on securing their claims to the region.
You collapsed your own argument by acknowledging they were “nomads”.
The "Palestinians" share their DNA primarily with Jordanians, since you brought up the biological reality of the situation.
How can you treat people in this way. Why do people that have been persecuted for thousands of years, persecute other in the same way.
Have you never learnt anything.
My therapist described it as a cultural trauma response. Made sense to me. So many peoples struggle with this, perpetuating the aggression and violence for generations.
I assume you are meaning the Palestine people?
Your a fool but a dangerous one at that and you won't drag us all with you, you will go alone!
@@khakicampbell6640you sound like you need therapy. Very weak minded.
@alanweav No, he meant the jews
The history is much more complex than what she is describing.
yeah she's full of it
The Jews there now are mainly Eastern European.
Starting witgh he highly debatable idea that the Jewish nation is THE VERY FIRST organized nation under law in human history, before Assyrians, Babylonians and Summerians, just to name a few. Old indeed, but not at all the original template for everybody else that followed, around the Mediterranean or elsewhere.
Go on…
You are right. But you can’t tell the whole story in that short conversation.
Kostya, it was a bit simplistic question when you compared yourself trying to resettle back to Moscow and you would need to kick out current occupants living in that flat. Jews in Israel came and built their own housing. Some Arabs fled their homes but it was their decision. Yes, there was some forceful removal of Arabs but it was not a majority of cases. It was a war afterwards. Thanks for everything you are doing
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say - this dispute will be solved via might-makes-right.
😀 I’m going to go out on a limb and say my money is on my curly sideburn friends.
Agreed. It's ultimately what both sides believe in.
Ultimately, that’s the backup strategy for most disputes.
Oh, I love might makes right!😊. Why don’t people adopt that thinking? Go ahead, and wear the villain hat, I say. You’ll get things done in a jiffy
"God is on the side not of the heavy battalions but of the best shots." - Voltaire And the best shots in the ME are and always have been the IDF.
so based on what she said, native Americans have a "HISTORIC RIGHT" to the the the continent known as America and must take it all back I guess?
she makes ZERO sense
Many ppl agree with that tho and say we’re on stolen land. The difference is wars and battles were fought and the Americans and Jews won. The historic right is more of a response to the ppl who say Jews have no connection to the land. But at the end of the day whoever conquers wins.
Instead they support the occupiers
US and UK modeling themselves on ancient Jews kingdoms...?? 😅 Been snorting too much of that dead sea salt, hasn't she?
Your ignorance is showing. It's called Christian Judeo ethics. It's fundamental to western civilization.
Judeo-Christian values and ethics is most likely whats she referring too, and is likely correct about.
In the sense that land is ethnically owned, yes. Many groups of people don't "own" the land they live on (like the North American Indians); they would say where they were from and where they hunt, but did not create settlements attached to a static piece of land.
Europeans own land, ring-fence it and say it is theirs, just for them.
The Bedouin tribes in Israel do not.
In this sense, the UK and all its former colonies have adopted a geographical ownership system first pioneered by the oldest functional city in the world (Jericho, now annexed to West Bank).
@@angrytedtalks lmao these people will rationalise anything to justify the "we're allowed to be a genocidal ethno-state, but nobody else is" mythology they've built
The Caliphates had non-Muslims as less than second class citizens, and current Arab countries prioritise Arab Muslims.
Shalom!
"The racism of the left." Beautiful exposé 👍🏽
She was talking about 1982. I don't think the left we have today has been around for more than 10 years
Pity she didn't dwell on the racism of the Knesset.
@@McSkore08 actually the current rhetoric from the left is precisely explained by the kind of inherent racism she has elaborated upon here. How else do you explain the “squad” calling for an immediate cease fire after Hamas just sneak attacked them? They want to de-fang and de-claw the Israelites, let Hamas destroy them, and then give Hamas a pass. Total double standard.
The type of bias she points out is more or less western condescension, which can be seen on the left and the right. And then she generalizes to the left because a couple people at one news paper were immoral.
And then people on the internet quote a vast oversimplification as true - even giving it a thumbs up - while ignoring the irony of her making group generalizations while attempting to disparage the generalizations made against her own group...
It's almost as if people don't listen to what's being said, or only care about it insofar as it supports their currently held position.
@@McSkore08 The new left in America dates to the late 1970s and I've experienced here exactly what she described in college back in the 1980s at San Francisco State where Angela Davis taught.
I am from Poland born in West Poland . This kind of talk brings us to the point when we would have to give back all our lands to previous owners ….?! That spells only wars not peace . At this stage we must obey treaties . I have cried for the past two days seeing what is going on . Now when people in Gaza are cut of collectively from food , electricity , water one can only think of Warszawa uprising and weep
yes agree w u…now go tell native americans to stfu about losing their land
@@jacktran7024 What happened to all the native tribes , not only on the territories of the USA but all over the world is tragic . How do you propose to resolve it ? Are you prepared to go home ? Like I said above I am Polish . My ancestors are from what is now Ukraine ( yes it was Poland for ages ) . The family was told to pack up sell they house ( guess who bought it , the new flag on the news ) and just go while the Ukrainian and German bandits were killing them on the way …. This is not story from ages ago . What do you want me to do ? Fight the Ukrainians ? Ask the Jews for the house back ?
@@ewabm3743 in Europe no one wnats to change the borders anymore. All of us have our own country. We are good. Now Jews want to have only one country for them. Meanwhile Arabs have 57 countries to choose from. Why do they want to destroy Israel? Gaza is in this Situation because they don't accept Israel's existence. When Israel became independent in 1948, they were immediately attacked by several Arab states.
Where in eastern Germany were you born?
Here's the thing, history happens. The German/Polish border used to be in one place, then the Germans f***ed up and started a war they couldn't win, now it's in another place. In 1948 the Palestinians f***ed up and started a war they couldn't win, now Israel exists. But Palestine exists too, even if no one can agree on its borders. If we try setting the clock back no one will be happy because whatever magic date you choose that we're supposed to go back to, someone will be the loser and demand s different date. How about we just talk about the rights people have today, on the land they're occupying today, and forget about past grievances?
And if you'd asked me last Friday, I'd say the Palestinians have a right to a state on the land they've occupied since 1949, and so do the Israelis on the land they occupied before 1967. But Hamas f***ed up on an absolutely epic scale, and now they're paying an epic price. It turns out when you go around raping women to death and beheading infants and then posting videos online to brag about it while the folks back home dance in the streets and celebrate the rapes and decapitations, the relatives of those people get pretty riled up and come looking for payback. So while I still think the Palestinians must someday be granted their human rights, sadly, there's going to be bombing and invasion before that happens, and the Palestinians can only blame themselves and their own actions for that. They have sown the wind, and now they will reap the whirlwind.
@@brucetucker4847 I don't think they should get a state. 1. They don't want one, as long as they have to accept Israel's state. They had many chances to agree to a two state solution, but they want all or nothing. 2. Any Palestinian state would become a second Afghanistan where different Islamic groups fight over dominanc, while plotting the end of Israel.
[Definition] Insidious: proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with harmful effects.
What is truly insidious about this 'conflict' is that the more you learn about each side's gripes (legitimate or not) , the less you actually care about either side's position, until all you care about are the human lives lost...
what's harmful about caring about the human lives lost??
that's exactly the point, the human lives are THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. They're gone. and we're all worse off for it.
@@potptvpatsonthepulse5701 then that's not 'insidious', according to the definition you provided ;P
Just pointing out a small contradiction in your OP. We agree that this conflict has no 'good side' vs 'bad side', but just very bad consequences.
I agree, but Hamas wants to destroy Israel, and wipe out the jews. Israel has offered a two state solution a number of times all offers of which have been rejected. I know that there are wrongs on both sides, but when one side wants to be conciliatory, and the other wants annihilation of its enemy, then I side with Israel. And I am not ashamed to say it.
@@JohnJones-wo1bcboth sides are completely blinded.
So she's saying Jews have more of a right to the land. You are smarter than to get on Israeli nationalists, FF and KK. The Palestinians have been there for centuries too. Is it their fault that the Arabs invaded and took it off the Byzantines? So can't they SHARE the LAND? There is no historical evidence of the Toranic or Biblical kings of Israel, or much frankly of the Torah/Bible.
It's an enormous mess. Always the innocent civilians on both sides suffer.
Following is a brief timeline detailing peace proposals rejected by the Palestinians:
- 1947 UN Partition Plan: At the time when Great Britain governed the territory now fought over by Israel and Palestinians, the UN General Assembly proposed the establishment of two states, Jewish and Arab. This offer was accepted by the Jews and quickly rejected by the Palestinians.
- 1993-1994 Oslo Accords - The Oslo Accords represent the start of what was supposed to be a “peace process” for Israel and the Palestinians. Israel agreed to recognize the Palestinian Authority’s right to interim self-governance in Gaza and the West Bank in return for the Palestinians’ recognition of Israel’s sovereignty.
Soon after the “peace process” was established, Palestinians began attacking Israel with suicide bombers.
2000 Israel Offers Follow-up Peace Deal - Israel offered the Palestinians another opportunity to end the conflict, but the offer was rejected outright. Instead of proposing an alternate peace deal, former Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat initiated terror attacks on Israel that led to the death of 1,184 Israelis, according to reports.
- 2005 Israelis evacuate Gaza Strip and West Bank -Israel ordered the evacuation of all Israeli settlements within Gaza and the West Bank, essentially giving this land to the Palestinians in an attempt to establish peace. The Palestinians did not accept this gesture of goodwill and instead allowed Hamas to take over the Gaza Strip and continued issuing terror attacks on Israel.
- 2008 peace proposal - Israel offered the PA another peace deal that was rapidly rejected by the PA’s new president Mahmoud Abbas. Reportedly, the Palestinians were not satisfied with the land boundaries proposed in the deal, as they did not allow the Palestinians control over Jerusalem’s holy sites.
- 2009 Israel Offers Support for Palestinian State - Israel offered conditional support for a demilitarized Palestinian state, which the Palestinians quickly rejected.
- 2020 Trump Peace Plan (Deal of the Century) - Palestinians quickly rejected a peace plan formulated by former President Donald Trump and supported by Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The plan’s title was “Peace to Prosperity: A Vision to Improve the Lives of the Palestinian and Israeli People,” and focused on economic incentives to quickly and drastically repair the Palestinian economy. The Palestinians refused the deal prior to seeing it.
The innocent civilians in gaza are cheering the dead bodies on parade, beating prisoners to death and whacking dead bodies with sticks as they pass in the back of a pickup....
Those are children, women and men alike.
That's not an innocent civilian population
Those are religious zealots who have been brainwashed just like the Hitler youth.....
Where the fuck is the conversation...this is just a monologue by 1 person.😂😂😂
"they didn't want a homeland! They didn't want a country!"
Source, please.
How about the fact that they've rejected every effort at peace, didn't fight against Egypt and Jordan during those countries occupation up to 1967, specifically excluded those occupied territories from their claims in the early 1960s, considered "palestine" be just be southern Syria............
@@danielgreen1124 that's not a source to prove they "didn't want a homeland".
@@Buttholio The point is that, if a homeland was their goal, they would have accepted a two-state solution one of the several times it was offered. They refused, preferring to aim for the utter destruction of the state of Israel instead, which isn't rational if all you want is a home of your own.
@Buttholio it's ample evidence. They have one official state already, it's called Jordan. Israel gave them Gaza and they ran it into the ground.
@@ponygirl1716 "We believe so strongly in our idea of a homeland, that we very happily give some of it away"
The rejection of an offer of land being taken from you in a 'civil' way hardly says "sure, we don't care about a homeland".
If I moved into your summer home because you were rarely there, I wouldn't take your rejection of my offer to let you keep half of it as "Well, they rejected my offer, so they must not want their home!".
"I reject your offer to only take half my stuff" does not mean "I'm happy for you to take half my stuff".
I watched it to the end - it is all about her. One thing she is correct about is "everything is a matter of opinion" - and she obviously has her opinion on this subject !
Is that the same for all of us, including you?
Israel has occupied Palestinian land in contravention of international law; they have blockaded Palestinian territory in contravention of international law; they have built and enlarged settlements in contravention of international law; enforced an apartheid system that strips Palestinians of the most basic Civic and human rights, and they have also targeted and killed and injured civilians on a mass scale for decades.
And the response of the western world at this time is what? Israel has a right to defend itself. Well what exactly does that mean? That they can cut off food? That they can cut off the power? That they can cut off water?
(In violation of the Geneva Convention); That they can force the displacement of over a million citizens in what has been described by Non Governmental Organizations and United Nations representatives on the ground
as an open-air prison."
And this is a very apparently that you are an idiot could not hear a single word for what you say except me or her
She doesn't even believe her own lies.
what did she say that was a lie? and how do we know, or not know, that they were lies?
@@directorscompany379 ok I'm a Palestinian refugee. We were ethnically cleaned in 1948 and 1967. Do you really believe that the land was unclaimed and no people attached to it? Palestine had a passport, currency and a soccer team. Watch her body language. How many more shrugs do you need to see.
She mever said the land was u claimed...wtf
@@kingpic okay thank you for putting your cards on the table so i know from the get to nothing you say is form an objective view point.
I am sorry to hear you are a refugee. That sounds like a difficult socioeconomic situation which I have no experience of.
You didn't answer my questions however, I asked what were her lies and how as a listener am i supposed to know they are lies?
Your reply of asking me "Do you really believe that the land was unclaimed and no people attached to it?" is a question I can answer but its best for conversation if when I ask something you respond in stead of 'moving the goal posts' of conversation.
Regarding "We were ethnically cleaned in 1948 and 1967." I don't think in this clip the speaker denied the happens but referenced 4/5 conflicts since WWII which I think you are referring to. This video doesn't directly mention them so I take your word for it that they happened. Just as I take this speakers word for it that things happened as she said, which brings be nicely in full circle asking you again, what were her lies, why can i not trust what she is saying, just as i am trusting what you are saying.
also I am listening not watching so cannot comment on shuffling.
@@directorscompany379 Open a history book, or better yet, open the Torah. The Jews weren't the first to arrive in Israel. Canaanites lived there before the Jews.
Her first claim is an outright lie. How can anything after be taken seriously.
which one?
YOUR first claim is a lie.
This woman is a liar. Palestinians apparently invaded? They are native
I don't even need to hear her. Just one look at her stupid smug face is enough.
yet you don't say what it is or how it's wrong. what a joke.
Perhaps an obvious Zionist is not the best candidate to lead a balanced, honest conversation
She just ignores logic and says whatever crap suits the situation.
The Jews were moved out by the Romans… they didn’t leave
humans are awesome in their ability to believe anything they want and that goes for both sides.
Pretty much! I saw this hysterical israeli ambassador to the UK on bloomberg tv, saying this is about "good and evil" 😂😂
Maybe. But we only see decapitating babies and raping women to death, then posting videos online to the folks back home can dance and celebrate, on one side. That's the side I'm against. I don't care all that much about the ancient history.
8:50 Hang on, hang on... How can they "come back" if they "never left the land" ?
I feel like I'm getting half a story....
most were kicked out, but there were a minority still in place... basicly think london current day vs 30 years ago...
The arrogance of claiming someone deserves a piece of land because it was theirs thousands of years ago is breathtaking. Holy shit.
Lady, the entire world is like that! Every single group of people on earth has invaded other groups and been invaded themselves. All the worlds borders have expanded and shrunk, and sometimes they were wiped off the map all together. Why are the jews/hebrews owed more than every other people who's had land stolen from them? Should Shetland, Faroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland be given back to norwegians? Should most of modern Turkey be given back to the greek? North and south America? Etc etc etc
(I'm not talking about the modern political disputes of Israel. And I'm neither pro or anti Israel. I just think the "back in the day" argument is stupid.)
Totally agree. The only people that deserve the land are the ones that fight for it.
And it's totally ignoring dna tests that show modern Palestinians descend more from jews who converted than Arabs. So that historical "right" is just as much Palestinians, if not more so. Her whole argument is bs based in zionism and religion as opposed to dna, geopolitics, and facts.
Actualy the Jews deserve it but not because of what she says.
She is as insane as these guys fro hamas , hezbollah or any other islamic organization.
It's the only country in the region that despite being build around people whose identity is religon driven, the people who run thst country most of the time are not religiously driven.
Even the forefathers of current Israel state were lefties who did not give much crap about jwh.
Objectively Israel is better with handling the resources they have. Compared to the neighbour countries, no doubt about it.
That poor Palestine which according to popular opinions is so poor, is actually 4 times more rich than eg Egypt.
That is derived from avarage salary.
So from the perspective of the people who live there, state instutitutions actually function in Palestine , co pared to the surrounding muslim world.
So to sum up, this lady is a nutjob, and she should not have anything to say thst is decisive on this war
Well said!
The mentality of both sides is ‘we deserve it more’ rather than ‘how can we help each other’, which is why it cannot be resolved, and always ends in violence. The Palestinians seem less interested in nation building and more interested in nation destroying, however. Very tragic situation and I feel terrible for the poor little children of both sides
The difference is that Arabs are allowed to live in Israel as free and equal citizens, and Jews are not allowed to live in Palestine. So yes, Jews who can live side by side with Arabs absolutely deserve it more than Arabs who want to kill all the Jews. There are more than 2 million Palestinians living in Israel with more rights, freedom, including healthcare and education than they have in any Arab country.
This conversation doesn’t make the present situation any clearer.
History is just a fraction of what actually took place in the past. It’s really troubling when people passionate about a subject and enter into informative discussions can’t even accurately articulate what little history we have.
She said nothing on purpose
The present situation is very clear. Hamas are rapists that beheaded and kidnap women and children. The situation is pretty clear. Maybe don't support terrorists just because you like a plucky underdog story or that you can relate to being a loser. The genocide of the jews is in the Hamas charter. Pull your head out of your ass or leave it up there and shut up.
@@factsondeck1552
No. She actually just gave you a history lesson that you sorely obviously need.
@@fanOmry what history lession besides botch propaganda that the land belongs to the jews when they never EVER had and never will have historical ties to the land?
well least not the europeans pretending to be jews, and that she claims that palestinians are a made up race, even tho they have far more historical claim to the land then the "Jews"
the only claim to the land the "jews" have is through some nonsensical fairy tale book.
She was very clear and concise
just thought i say . A nomad is technically a farmer they just move their livestock from place to place instead of growing the crops for their animals .so when she says there were just some nomads on the land .what she is really saying is the area was filled with farmers just saying .
Farmers are not the same as herders. Nomads are herders, not farmers.
I was so hoping to get a neutral take on the political situation in this region. Is the counterpoint scheduled for a different episode.
Is there such a thing as a neutral viewpoint of ANY political situation!
@@thewoodster8607 Point / counter-point is a start. We didn't get that here.
@@thewoodster8607 do you think that her view point was "neutral" ??????????? lol
Lets hope so , although you know what happens when you speak against mainstream narratives .. come on lads .. grow a pair !