INTERNET IS WRONG: Sig M7 Not Canceled!
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- Опубліковано 20 бер 2023
- ArmyTimes Article: www.armytimes.com/opinion/com...
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Here's a great article from SolderSystems about the M7 program. soldiersystems.net/2023/03/15/army-moving-forward-with-next-generation-squad-weapons-ngsw-program/
Even in that article's comment section the M7 haters were spreading more rumors and misinformation. Simply no shame with these guys!
Seems like the M7 is a great platform for DMR roles in a compact and lighter package than currently available.
Ian on Forgotten Weapons did a great comparison on the bolt of the M7 vs. an AR-10. The M7 bolt lugs are twice as long as an AR-10 because they needed to handle the 80K pressure.
Do you remember the name of the video? I can't find it nor do I remember watching it.
@@Bagginsess it's not that old. I recall watching it too. Or was it on his other channel?
Anyway, scroll through if the different names don't show up
@@Bagginsess about 19 mins in.
😅😮🎉😢76777777777777777 27:42 7776777777🎉
😅😮🎉😢76777777777777777 27:42 7776777777🎉
I used to work with a guy who claimed our local Little Caesars was going out of business. I was shocked because this is a town of 800 people with little to no restaurants. I asked how he knows this and was told "because it is so greasy."
What did you get?
"A deep-dish, pepperoni, bacon, sausage, and tomato pizza."
Still open 6 years later
I've known people exactly like that. Same kind of person that'll shoot a gun once and not like it because it's scary, so decide no one should have one and they must be banned.
They think the world revolves around them.
Pizza Pizza😂
😂
I’m more invested in this story than the new service rifle I’ll end up with..
That's how we describe ur mom
the really cool part of the NGSW SIG 6.8 thing is their new machine gun. they also have the .338 one
The .338 Norma Mag is supposed to be in between the 6.8 SAW and a .50 Cal. It is bigger than the M-250, but is the same kind of setup in design.
Been a sub on YT for years thanks for all your great work. I’m a trucker from GA that delivers Kubota tractors and I just delivered to Riggs outdoors not to far from you. Just a reminder you have real fans not bots!
Thanks 👍 Keep on truck'n!
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The XM157 is actually US made, and does give wind holds. Ability to mark targets and connect to other optics so the rest of your squad can see the target you mark. Stores ballistic information for different weapons from the m4 to the m2 so you can tell it what weapon you're using to get more accurate computing. Garand Thumb has a video going into it with a Vortex rep on the project
Only the glass is made in the USA, nobody knows where the rest is made.
The gauntlet mud test is the equivalent of doing barrel rolls in a C-5 galaxy with Abrams battle tanks in the cargo bay.
Someone get a hold of Vin Diesel, I know what they should do for the next Fast & Furious movie.
I mean, that's cool if your cargo plane can do that, but it shouldn't be a disqualifier if it can't.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD bro they already did it with an Antonov which is a little bit bigger than a C-5. lol
Agree. One of the first things they teach you is never put your rifle on the ground/drop it.
woah!
Thank you for making this and getting a statement from SIG for us!
Thanks for watching.
@Militaryarmschannel Thank you both for digging into this subject. I didn't have the time to research and figure out what all the buzz was about. Great video, as always.
Thanks for watching.
The M16 started out small, as an airforce survival rifle, then SF got hold of some, then everyone wanted one.
civilian leadership made an ultimatum and it got a lot of people killed
Yes, and now its the most modular, reliable, accurate weapon system. Remember in vietnam they dubbed the M16 "plasticy mattel toy gun"? xm7 is at that phase right now
@@IchlasulAmmalThe M7 is at the M14 level right now. It has better range, better sight systems, more energy, better ballistics, etc...
Sounds like the old battle rifle theory all over again.
The Army found out 20 years later what the Germans in WW2 already knew. Warfare is closer, enemies are able to drown an ambush or counter ambush with superior volumes of fire, so an intermediate cartridge was needed.
The M7 is a great rifle for marksman roles, but as a standard infantry rifle, the best bench rest rifle at the range doesn't equate to the best combat rifle for the troops.
One of the objectives of the program was supposed to be to create cheaper AP ammo, with a hardened steel core as opposed to expensive tungsten.
Good job, guys! Awesome info, and I agree!
As a true skeptic once said, "Believe most of what you see, but less than half of what you hear."
That was before the machine learning powered deepfakes. Soon you won't be able to trust most of what you see or hear unless you see and hear it directly. And almost nobody will be able to trust you when you tell them what you saw or heard.
...as the x files once said "the truth is out there."
Its half of what you see and none of what you hear
“Half of what you see” lol
With ai where it’s at now, I’m not sure you should believe things you see either.
I don’t know what will end up happening-probably few if anyone knows-but from the beginning, there was a lot of criticism “out there” of this new platform. A lot of it was legitimate from experienced folks-many issues were discussed-and I think a lot of folks either bet it would fail, and some even WANTED it to fail, feeling the M16-M4 platform that we’ve all served with couldn’t be topped. So folks heard and read things that seemed to justify their opinions. We even started regressing, with videos coming out discussing what rifles could be made en masse and used easily in the event of WWIII….and it was always the AR platform.
I have been saying since the beginning, I would love to see a 6.8SPC bi-metal hybrid cartridge used with the MCX platform and the M7 stays on as DMR, the M250 stays in current role.
Toss away that stubby 6.8mm bullet and put in a ballistically superior 6mm or 5.56mm bullet, and you might have something.
That would go against what the Army wants. Which is one round to rule them all. I believe eventually they will outright get rid of the M16/M4 platform 30 to 40 years from now. Once the economies of scale comes into effect for the 6.8 round and the new weapons systems. Over time it will start to make sense to have everyone on the same platforms for logistics. I know everyone will argue rear echolean troops don't need that amount of fire power, but that's not the point. At some point in the next 50 years its reasonable to assume that potential adversaries will have better or similar protection. The cost to field a weapon that cannot meet those demands is more of a waste than asset. You would be better off logistically not issuing rear troops anything. Which everyone knows is not a real solution. So, yes the army is probably not backing down from this position.
No
6mm 75gr in the 5.56 guns with a penetrator seems probable due to BC..
Look we've done this like 4 or 5 times already with various guns, nothing is going to replace the infantry rifle until the army is arm twisted otherwise.
Vote me for president and for the lulz I will command the army to adopt the AK47.
There was so much criticism on the internet for the NGSW program, a lot of it valid, that as soon as something vaguely authoritative came along saying it's a failure, everyone rushed to spike the football.
Yeah CRS Firearms jumped the gun there.
I don't how much of it was valid considering the testing was pretty hush hush. Everyone wanted to love that polymer round simply because it was light without considering the weapon system may be trash.
@@themastermason1 Well, he is one of the more... emotional guntubers. I won't go so far as to say "hysterical". But he's got a bad habit of assuming that everything is a plot against his personal obsessions.
@@tenchraven That's a charitable way of describing a glue sniffing windbag.
@@themastermason1 He often does. His problem, and I'm trying not to be a big critic here, is that even though he sometimes does cite good data, he extrapolates it out to form un-consistent conclusions. It's a common problem I've see in many intelligent people (see, I did call him intelligent). :-)
I really want to see how the bimetal casing boosts 6.8 SPC. I think a Spear LT in 6.8 SPC would be an excellent rifle.
I would rather take 6arc as sf is already using it
Either 6.8 or 6 arc, I lean towards arc because of the higher bc
Probably never going to get a bi-metal cased 6.8 SPC due to the potential liability of someone putting a round generating 80,000PSI in an old SPC bolt/chamber combination only rated for 60,000PSI.
@@aaronorr5586 I mean, the idea is that they'll have to redesign the gun to handle that kind of pressure, I just would have liked to have started from a short action caliber like 6.8SPC rather than a .308 case.
@@GammaRayTrae Which rifle company in 6mm arc? Stag, CMMG, Wilson Combat? Accuracy issues with the 6mm arc?
Thanks for clearing that up. I heard about this online but couldn’t find any information.
My problem with it, is that it's a completely pointless rifle. From the ballistics days we have, it's marginally better than 7.62x51 NATO. So marginally, it can't possibly justify a switch, when we have billions of 7.62x51 ammo already in inventory, and many guns chambered in it.
The much vaunted HK416 failed in range TVs mud test the same way the m7 did (mud in an open ejection port). Mr Orr is a classic case of writing from a place of bias, IMHO.
I have an uncle that works for a company that Sig has a contract with to do the heat treatment on the .277 Fury brass and another part on what sounds like the bolt. He said the tolerances Sig has on them is very tight and they are checked constantly.
Yup, a key point. *EVERYONE* testing these rifles in the public sphere is testing them with commercial sporting ammunition, or the lower pressure "practice" ammo Sig developed to reduce wear in training.
*NOBODY* outside the classified Army testing program is testing the *actual* "warshot" ammo. Because the ammo is not available to the public.
The Army determined they could meet their performance requirements with a *specific* bullet at a minimum of a *specific* muzzle velocity. They did so, by a combination of high end calculations *and* testing various bullets at various velocities from test gun "wildcat" setups. When they got the terminal performance they needed, they wrote the performance specs to require the NGSW performance to meet or exceed the *validated* performance testing.
*Every* competitor had to meet the muzzle velocity requirements with the *Army provided* bullets.
Sig met the performance requirements, in order to stay in the development program beyond the very first down select years ago. Therefore, we *know* it meets the goals the Army required.
I am glad you guys brought up your skeptical views on the caliber in this video from a previous video because I thought it was fair to do so and appreciated the acknowledgements of your own statements
It seems like "journalism" in this country means find something you don't like and point out any negatives you can make up about it
Thank you for putting this out there. Clearly there are some guntubers out there pushing this false narrative because they couldn't understand that their source was an opinion piece by some guy in Australia who's entire premise is based on youtube videos.
And here I thought I didn't understand English anymore cause no where did that frigging article state the program was cancelled.
With regards to the sight the same thing happened in tanks they went from manual sights where you had to estimate the range to laser range finders. Yet none of the issues people think will happen happened. Lethality skyrocketed and not just that it is actually a really good training tool. You now know for a fact that 500m looks like x. And that at 500m my drop will be about this much. Jets as well got automated computing systems for bombs and it had the same effect.
My purely speculative and borderline conjectural assessment on why we're adopting the M7 is lengthy but a worthwhile read:
We are not adopting it because of Afghanistan and Taliban PKMs. We are doing so because of the realities of modern technology and modern combat around the world.
-Weapons technology has advanced significantly since the start of GWOT, but our infantry has not. We are still using what is fundamentally the same weapons and doctrines we used in the cold war. Weapons technology have advanced to such a state that battle rifles are now a viable option where those like the M14 and FAL failed: you were limited by ammo manufacturing and optics. These weapons were limited by iron sights, so you could not engage with 7.62 any more effectively than you could with 5.56. Can't see what you can't hit. The proliferation of LPVOs as standard issue and hybrid ammo means you have increased target acquisition and accuracy, with the same ballistic performance as a long barrel as stated in the video. The advent of systems like IVAS also helps in close quarters with it's HUD system, meaning traditional TTPs around CQB may be drastically altered.
-In Syria, during the 2014 US Coalition air campaign against ISIS, a report came out that US air power nearly depleted it's reserve stockpile of precision ordnance. The Lend-lease effort to Ukraine has also revealed shortcomings in US military industry. This means, In a conventional war with US boots on the ground, we may not always have the luxury of air or far support, leaving ground forces having to get the job done on their own and close into engagement range with the enemy.
-Night Vision and thermal devices are something that western forces previously had a nigh monopoly on. This is no longer the case.
-The biggest and most recent conflicts, that being Ukraine, Syria, and the Armenia/Azerbaijan war have one thing in common: drones. In all three conflicts, we see cheap off-the-shelf drones used to devastating effect. In Syria, we saw ISIS use drones as remote explosives and weapons systems. In Armenia, We saw entire armor companies get scrapped because of the effective use of drones. In Ukraine, separatist forces around 2017~, aided by Russian "little green men", were using $100 drones strapped with Garmin GPS watches to find Ukrainian tank units that were staging, turn the drone off when right above their position so the signal couldn't be back-traced, and called in artillery with pinpoint accuracy. We also see the inverse, where Ukranian infantry units are using drones to walk HMG and GMG fire on target with unprecedented accuracy. This means that ground forces will face an extended threat range they have never had to deal with before, and the heavy weapons platforms we have become reliant upon for long range heavy direct-fire may not be available. Not all is lost, however, as the US military has also been experimenting with drones as well, with handheld drones at the squad, platoon, and company level giving that same, if not further extended range of situational awareness, allowing our infantry to get the most out of our weapon systems, and being able to ignore traditional limiters to effective range like cover and concealment.
In all, the choice to switch to Battle Rifles is not only the right choice, it's the only choice.
On the other hand… i’m so used to sig lying to consumers that I just automatically don’t believe anything they say
Great call out. Guess it shows what YT content creators will do to get those clicks. I remember a fella that put up a vid about how to spot a fake expert. Its obvious our current society is full of fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD)....which is nothing new. Thanks for keeping it grounded.
thanks for this info
I seriously doubt it will be cancelled, though it won't replace 5.56. its got a high chance of replacing 7.62x51 and the guns that fire it.
The carbine/optic combination demonstrates it's ability to make hits out to 1000.
For most combat duty positions, from grenadiers, AT specialists, vehicle crewmen and indirect fire troops, it serves no purpose.
At best, an infantry platoon will end up with maybe half a dozen 6.8 weapons, with the rest retaining 5.56. That's plenty, though.
thats really what i've been saying from the get go i also think that most of our nato allies won't swap from 7.62 to this either
@@shawnschaitel838
The real issue isn't the pressure or caliber. It's that their JAGs have deemed EPRs to be unlawful
It was never intended to replace all 5.56, I don’t understand how people always think this. The program was specifically intended for front-line soldiers, and was a combo deal with a rifle and a SAW. At no point has the intended purpose been to replace an 88M’s M4 with the 6.8 M7 and that crazy Vortex optic
@@shawnschaitel838 It's taken a couple decades to convince all NATO allies to switch over to 7.62 and over half a century for them to all adopt the 5.56 so even if they do it's going to take a while. Not to mention the 6.8 hasn't made much of a splash outside the US with the exception of Australia. In the case of Canada and Europe what they've been looking for is a 6.5 round.
@@outofrangetv2353 Actually. The entire purpose of the M7 was to replace the 5.56 in standard service and replace the M4 as the standard service rifle to defeat body armor. The M4 was going to be relegated to reservists, security personnel, and armored vehicle crews and become used in that role. They wanted to have one caliber that everyone could use.
Sig at Shot Show 2020 had a display of the bimetal case tech of 6.8, 308, and 6.5. So the Hybrid case technology is being experimented with by Sig.
They've even done some prototyping with intermediate cartridges, according to a SIG ammo tech that I conversed with.
InRange made a point to hate the forward assist yet, Ian repeatedly used it when doing their mud test on the POF.. Enough said!
"Let's do a 3 oz. weight reduction on this rifle by removing a feature you might need in the most dire/dangerous situation possible"
Ian, probably.
I love it when the dude breaks down history behind firearms and whatnot, but I wouldn't take his advise when building a weapon that might get used in actual combat.
Thanks for this commentary!👍😉🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Just one general comment about armor piercing rounds, they are bad ass! There is several great UA-cam videos of guys shooting M955 556 Black Tip AP which unbelievably ZIPS right through Level 4 ceramic armor, and then some awesome videos of guys shooting WWII surplus AP rounds and they punch through some thick ass steel, it doesn't matter if AP is coming from a 5.56 or 7.62 you do NOT want to be on the receiving end!
It seems the XM1158 cartridge is made of a new tungsten alloy that’s supposed to have higher tensile strength and hold together better and not shatter as soon as current tungsten AP munitions. In addition the pressures will exceed 80k PSI with the AP Ammo only , rumors are possibly up to 100k psi (since the gun is actually built to handle over 120k). This means the new tungsten round will be flying around Mach 3 or faster and if you do the math it will not only defeat level 4 armor at several hundred yards but probably even XSAPI and more advanced plates than level 4 that are designed to stop current tungsten threats such as m993 m995.
That's a shame it should be canceled.
Why
@@alexmark8917 Preasure is to high, gun is too heavy , 5.56 will penetrate the same armor with a tungsten penetrator. The shell casing is 3 pieces. When it's in production and under field conditions I think we will see alot of failure.
replace tungsten penetrators with depleted uranium. its self sharpening during penetration and far more abundant than tungsten. we'lll just ignore the part where its slightly radioactive
What I want to see is if 6,8x51 with max pressure loads and a hardened steel core like m80a1 can penetrate / cause significant back face pen in lvl 4. I have seen m80a1 loaded on .300 win mag defeating lvl4 or causing lethal backface deformation. Maybe the smaller cross section of 6,8 compared to 7,62 + higher impact velocity is enough to do the same (at least at short range). Using tungsten is a cheat code that can make even 5,56 lvl 4 capable
5.56mm tungsten AP is only effective at bad-breath distances. A more powerful intermediate cartridge could push that distance out, but still not close to the range that 6.8mm XM1184 SP is capable of.
@@ostiariusalpha You’re right, maybe 6,8x51 with hardened steel core cannot defeat lvl 4 armor but maybe with tungsten core it can push the penetration range a few hundred meters out
@@Jack72607 That was the entire idea. As it is, China doesn't currently issue Lv IV plates, but they are acquiring large quantities of Lv III+ ballistic armor that are resistant to even the potent 5.56mm M855A1 round. 5.56x45mm would need tungsten AP bullets to reliably defeat it, but the 6.8x51mm does not; it can puncture Lv III+ easily even at good distances.
That's basically it.
Requirement tldr for ap is steel core against lv4 at 800.
These discussion videos have been so excellent, Mac. You and Jason make a great mini podcast team.
Personally I think the M7 is neat and has potential, and like anything else, it's going to take a lot of time and development before it gets any major widespread adoption. I hate how so many "news" stories are outright lies aimed at getting emotional responses, clicks, reactions and comments. People are in such a rush to discuss/dismantle anything they can just to make a buck. Glad Military Arms Channel still has some integrity.
Thanks man.
CRS Firearms is gonna hate this one
I called bullshit as soon as he posted it
Since when is a 1-8x with integrated rangefinding, auto calculated wind holds, infrared and visible lasers, target marking and data sharing along with the ability to add additional functions later "limited functionality"?
Someone didn't watch the Garand Thumb video.
The M7 program is just shocking to me. We already learned the heavy rifle/ larger caliber+full auto lesson with the M14. It's like we're doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Now put a can on it. Great. I'm all in favor of hearing protection, but it's additional weight at the muzzle which is where trimming weight matters most. Whatever. They'll figure it out soon enough.
Modern conflict has shown open field trench-defense engagements in Ukraine as well as urban door kicking. They want the M7 to cover the open field engagements far better than a M4 while also having the 13-in barrel for cqb. I hope it lives up to the expectations honestly
It will be great... As soon as the US Army also adopts a powered exoskeleton to be able to support the extra ammo load and extra recoil.
@@jeffersondaviszombie2734 SIG literally just bought an autonomous vehicle company. They want (most likely wheeled or tracked) robo mules to carry all the extra crap that soldiers have been hauling around since way before the NGSW program was created. And anyone that can't handle firing the M7 shouldn't be in a combat MOS to begin with.
It will be great..maybe on paper and in fantasy land or for a individual gun owner. This Ukraine war has been slapping everybody in the face. "LOGISTICS". Many of our so call ALLIES like Germany can barely supply themselves with 5.56 ammo, some of them are still using M14 that USA donated to them, some are still using AK variants and etc etc etc.
@@ostiariusalpha By this logic, that robot mule will need to do the trigger pulling as well pretty soon, because almost nobody will be meeting the standards for a combat MOS... unless you lower those standards so low that they become meaningless.
@@jeffersondaviszombie2734 the M7 weighs less than rhe USMCs M27 and kicks sightly less than .308. Its fine.
Love you guys!!!
Thank you, Oliver and thank you for watching!
The internet is wrong??? How could that be? The internet is never wrong. Except that time...
Have watched your channel for over a decade, love the content and how you bring facts to the table. I’ve stopped watching news because I trust people like you, it’s like hiring a private company to fact check and bring me the straight up facts, thank you Brother, as a Veteran I greatly appreciate your representation, keep it going!
I saw Matt from CRS Firearms did a video on this article few weeks ago. He was talking like it was matter of fact that this weapon got canned. However, I couldn’t believe it, so I googled it and I could not find any information that would back Matt”s video about the xm7 being dropped. So I just figured the Matt misread the info. Because that would be huge news and if there was a press release you would not find just one article it would be everywhere. Thanks for clarifying it even more.
Well you know it's kind of common knowledge that Matt is pretty much an idiot right? I watched one of his videos way before the rare breed fiasco and I said to myself this guy is definitely getting his doors kicked in by the ATF and charged with felonies. Few years later what happens? I don't think he committed a crime but he was saying the exact stupid shit that will get on their shit list. If I knew he was fucking up then he should have known. He's not a bad guy he's just dumber than a box of rocks. He's also full of shit.
I watched matt's videos on the XM7 before the article on the XM7 was published. Matt's analysis was predictably laughable. When the article came out, I noticed it regurgitated most of the laughable things that Matt originally said. So there is an amusing circularity in Matt making new videos discussing the article
I got 10 smackers say a 13.5" 6.8 will never bust level 4, unless it has a warhead, and then we still don't need it.
Yeah but if you put a steel core in that puppy and up the barrel length a bit, it might actually punch through level 4 plates.
When I designed this concept in 1996, it was not well accepted, however the original concept was for it to be used in AR-10s and Remington 700 base models,
the fact that legislators are involved in the procurement process is a problem.
I'm not surprised how fast this spread. People love to hate.
Just like you said Tim the M16 back in the day was "junk." We'll have to wait and see how it does in the field.
Honestly I think the best thing to come out of this is a new chassis
The 6.8x51 cartridge out of the XM7's 13.5in barrel still can't penetrate level 4 armor without having a tungsten penetrator, which the military wants to avoid because almost all the tungsten in the world comes from China.
Regardless of how good or bad the rifle is, troops will hate it because with the can and the optic its like 12-14lbs, and they can carry half as much ammo.
@@Chris_FMS_Redfield That is not the gotcha you think it is. The terminal requirements of the NGSW were and remain classified, as does the bullet that will eventually be used in the 6.8x51 cartridge. Level 4 has never been mentioned in connection to the XM7.
What we DO know is that 5.56 DOES NOT penetrate armor in any meaningful way. Say what you want about the NGSW but we can't go back. The only way is forward.
@@CircaSriYak That doesn't change the fact that troops will have a big heavy rifle with probably not a lot of ammo given their kits. And there are cartridges out there that are superior to 5.56 that can fit in the standard M4A1 and could work better and be even better than what it is now if enough development was put into it like 6ARC for example. Plus there are features on special forces M4s that standard grunts have yet to recieve.
USGS just updated their database. There’s a plethora of tungsten throughput the west and in Alaska. And antimony to last a century.
Greenland has a particularly rich field of tungsten as well.
@@ostiariusalpha I'm really excited about how the authors spin the Russia-Ukraine conflict in a way, that allows 'murica to invade Greenland on the upcoming season of
S.trategic
T.ranfer of
E.quipment to
A.lternate
L.ocations
This rifle not about new S.F. rifle. It's about stopping large amounts of Asian troops wearing body armor.
This is a great informative video👍
Thanks for watching.
InRangeTV has said the mud test is not realistic and for fun. They run the mud test the same way every time and the DI guns do well until they eventually gunk up.
Yup.
When I was on active duty, Army/Navy Times had little more credibility than the National Inquiror...
“What’s your source?”
“Trust me bro.”
Glad it's still alive and well! Thanks Mac
I was definitely scratching my head at all the ammunition penetration claims when the military ammo has never been revealed
No form of .277 or 6.8x51 available to civilians match the Army spec rounds, as such info is not (yet) available. Likewise, the Army has yet to create their higher pressure variants of the ammo like they did with 5.56
Same as 5.7. So? Your point?
@@SlavicCelery his point is until we have it in our hands and can test it against body armor then it’s impossible to independently verify, or deny, the claims made regarding the military rounds performance.
@@sethrockwood Exactly, so pissing in the wind about how 6.5 Creedmoor is a superior round is a fools errand.
But apparently, half of these people in the comments have access to everything classified right now and clearly know everything. Oh wait, they're just making stuff up.
@@SlavicCelery Im confused now. When did we start talking about 6.5 Creedmoor? I looked back through the comments and couldn't figure out what you are referencing here about 6.5 Creedmoor being a superior cartridge.
At any rate, yes, we cannot verify anything as of yet.
I will say though, that if the released info is infect correct, then you have a bullet delivering greater terminal ballistics than 7.62 NATO, with a trajectory similar to the flat shooting 6.5 Creedmoor, but achieving that out of a 13 inch barrel instead of a 24 inch barrel. AND, significantly, with an expected barrel life of 16k rounds(one of the requirements that the military set for the NGSW program) instead of 2500(6.5 Creedmoor). That last bit is what has me intrigued. It would potentially give us a prs cartridge that wont burn out barrels at an absurd pace, while still maintaining stopping power sufficient for hunting most big game in north America. That's rather exciting if it comes to be.....i will be watching excitedly.
@@sethrockwood I'm referencing the other comments (here or in nearly any other video discussing the topic) that consistently state that 6.5 Grendal/Creedmoor or insert whatever cartridge is superior and the US Army was an idiot to accept a new round.
Without any testing or knowledge. They're just constantly proclaiming how right they are, without any real reference points.
To add weight to the "mud test", it is fully *intended* to be "the most extreme of extreme torture tests".
Every weapon "fails" it. That's the point.
As talked about here, no one would treat a weapon like this, even if it was dropped in mud.
Remember how the name change killed the SR 71 Blackbird? When the president changed the designation from RS on live TV? Neither do I.
Pretty sure they're going to eventually end up with the Spear LT or a derivative thereof as the new primary weapon, with the M7 being the DMR option that shares ammunition with the new machine gun, much like we've operated for the last.....60 years.
The Spear LT is built to take future 80k pressure rounds and is much lighter. I could see the inevitable future 5.56 Fury being incredibly effective, and keeping the standard STANAG sized mags means all of the currently produced gear that all NATO countries have would be compatible. A 77gr OTM bullet out of an M4 sized weapon that's doing 2900+ FPS instead of 2600 is going to dramatically improve armor penetration and still have basically no recoil. If they modernized the 5.56 with a PRC style shoulder/neck, they could even cram in the extremely good 80+gr .224 bullets. It's objectively a better option for a low recoil fighting rifle.....
My thoughts exactly. This is the most likely scenario. The 6.8 is probably a replacement for 7.62 only. The .338 will replace the 50 bmg. 5.56 will remain for the foreseeable future as the basic soldier caliber.
Tungsten is one of the most available elements. It's a byproduct from mining. If you can't buy it you dig it. Processing is hard but can be done.
Gauntlet Testing, also known as "Destructive" Testing: Pushing a product to Failure to see when it will fail. These failure points tend to be far beyond what the product is expected to encounter.
Never thought it was canceled. There’s an MN National Guard unit slated to get all of the new NGSW’s. I know this because they tried to entice me to stay in and transfer to that unit.
That means there’s plenty of room for you to have been lied to.
@@asphaltannihilator157 Soo true!!😂😂
I don't see a guard unit getting NGSW weapons anytime soon.
@@DZ4295DBW MN National guard is one of the most funded NGs in the US. My unit has M17s, M110s, new SAWs, M4A1s etc. I 100% believe the CSM that presented about the NGSW. All presenters shown us their unit outlook calendar for the next 4-6 years. Military is getting pretty desperate for retention and NG units (at least MN ones) have always been good and accurate with their unit outlooks on training and deployments.
@@austinrose8982 Dawg every unit has that
I think FN's new .264 LICC round is the right way to go.
43:30 I've been thinking about this as well. I don't know if everyone getting 6.8 is the answer, but the hybrid, high pressure ammo is likely here to stay. To me, that seems to also suggest that 5.56 and 7.62 are dead, or at least they will not be part of that hybrid future, and its for just the reason you were saying. The higher pressure is going to require different bolts and stronger lugs and all sorts of stuff like that. Its going to require, seemingly at the very least, a new upper to handle those pressures. I think that will mean a new caliber as well because the Army would not want the new high pressure ammo to chamber in the old rifles not meant to handle the pressure. It would also allow them to better optimize the bullet for the new capabilities, like maybe there is less of a trade off in velocity out of short barrels, so they would want to increase mass to put more energy on target.
So a new caliber would help with the relative safety of the transition, do it at a reasonable price because there would already be an upper replacement needed, and allow the round to be optimized to the new technology.
Seems some people don't know what an AR-180 is, who invented it, or what rifles are influenced by its design.
I don't understand why they went with a 100% new rifle and experimental (in my mind) ammo. An AR-10, updated, would make more sense.
Agreed especially when the M110 fills 90% of what the m7 is supposed to do
The AR-10 isn't standardized so you get no downsides with going with a new design. You'd have to change the AR-10 so much, you'd have an entirely new rifle.
The experimental ammo is the primary purpose of the program. The Army specified the projectile, caliber, construct and velocity , then requested vendors to make rifles and SAWS that could fire it. A .308 doesn't meet the performance requirements, especially in a short barreled rifle.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD Ok, just seems like the typical military overkill or overthinking to me.
Bi-metal cartridge in an intermediate caliber could be crazy fast and you could probably just swap uppers
6.5 wsm at 80k psi 🎉
@@kxkxkxkx That's kind of going in the opposite direction, now isn't it? The WSM has more case volume than the 6.8x51mm. Unless you actually meant a WSSM.
6ARC is just so good, and fits the standard platform that we have now.
@@life_of_riley88 bimetal 6ARC
@@newerest1 I agree that would be awesome... but the bolts would need to be redesigned, like a POF revolution bolt, so it can handle the extra pressure. The 6mm arc can't even do 60k psi because it will sheer ar15 lugs. Too much bolt thrust.
There is something to be said about the difference in pressure inside the upper receiver between GI and Piston systems.
There is a higher likelihood of a gi system blowing gas inside the receiver, causing pressure increases that help blow away debris.
Would you be willing/able to provide input on the new FN IWS in 6.5x43? I think it's rather interesting in that it's cartridge uses a 2 piece design, is made out of all steel instead of a steel brass hybrid, and that it provides more insight on what hybrid cases could bring to the intermediate cartridge world
Steel is slightly lighter, while brass has better obturation qualities and lower friction. It's a trade-off.
Canceled or not, I still think this isn't a good idea
CRS Firearms did a couple videos on this. Not entirely sure how much was based on these rumors, but he makes some very compelling arguments regardless. The verge of WW3 is not the time to change everything up that’s worked for decades. Especially with the track record of some of these big budget updates.
Correct
@@americancapitalist9094correct
interesting that 20 years ago the claim was a piston is better and now the whole thing flipped and di is better
Neither is "better" than the other. DI has some weight advantages, and can blow contaminants away from the ejection port; while the short-stroke gas piston sends less gas into the shooters face when a suppressor is mounted, and is more immediately reliable if the rifle is submerged in water.
WHAT? The internet is wrong? How can this be. Lock up the kids. Pull down the shades. Dim the lights. Open up the prepper pantry. This is a real SHTF event. 😒😒😒
I believe every D.I. Ar-15 they have tested on in range have a combined 0 malfunctions in mud tests, at least I haven’t seen an episode to the contrary. Every piston gun has malfunctioned including the mr556, ak etc. they’ve ran several mags through regular ar-15s and put more mud on them. so yea D.I. Has proven more reliable inadverse conditions imo
yep!!!
Thank you. Not to trash talk CRS Firearms but to propagate a rumor like that with basically no source aside from an opinion piece from ArmyTimes really made me lose just about the last little crumb of respect I had for the dude.
I lost any possibility of respect for Matt's firearm knowledge a long time ago, but I still find him entertaining.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that article is just off.
@@SlavicCelery Well, then we're lacking a lot of geniuses here, aren't we?
Most the internet is always wrong. The military is retooling their ammunition depot to make the new ammo. They are not canceling the program. The army is full steam ahead!
A whole new line will need built.....not just retooling.
@Mike Strunk that's what they are doing.
@@mikestrunk3282 SIG Claims it can be loaded on legacy lines with a single additional step
Exactly . These boomers clinging to muh m4 are hilarious. The change is coming . I can a test to that
@@alexmark8917 Yep, a ton of people think we are going to fighting the vietcong with spray and prey tactics, so we need to be able to mag dump at 10 yards into a forest for hours. What the next war is probably going to be PLA soldiers all with passable if inferior to the US's ceramic and kevlar body armor that makes even the best 556 AP ammo useless beyond hand to hand range.
I only ever used semi auto in Sadr City too. Think I used 3rnd burst on the range once or twice and said, 'nope, this is useless'. Fast, accurate, semi auto was way more effective.
So that’s why nobody issues automatic weapons.
I believe that the baseline issue is that literally everyone has an AR pattern rifle that they believe is extra cool because the military issues the M4. The idea that it might be replaced scares them that they might lose their cool factor. Folks need to wrap their heads around the fact that old stuff gets replaced. The P51 Mustang is not our frontline fighter anymore, but it is still cool. The day a rifle is adopted, you can be certain that it won't be the issue rifle forever.
It needs to be canceled
Interesting rifle as a DMR, more interesting ammo that could be used for other rounds (6.8). The cost to transition the entire US military to this rifle many find hard to believe they'll actually fill out the check when presented. 👍
great content great topic: I'm glade to hear it myself, I like the M7. but you I do not understand why an Ammunition Mfg doesn't use the 6.8x51/277Fury case technology and use it to make a better more effective 5.56/223 cartridge. now that is something I would like to see, but as far as the Sig Spear M7 is concerned, I would like to have the opportunity have one, and experience it for myself. I digress.
People forget how universally hated the M16 was back in the days.
it should be though
YES! Thank you for saying exactly what I was saying in the comments of a couple of other videos on this article. It was really sad how some people jumped on this trash article like a fat kid on cupcakes and cheered the alleged failure. XM7/NGSW: Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated!
While I am partial to an optimized bullpup, not necessarily the RM277R-- for the NGSW-R part of the competition The NGSW produced excellent firearms with the Sig MCX Spear and 6.8 LMG. As a former infantry soldier with extenaive time as an M16/M4 rifleman, M249 LMG gunner and M240 gunner, the M7 & M250 are excellent weapons and are significant improvements. My only concern is the selection of a battle rifle cartridge to replace the 5.56x45mm cartridge. Personally, a rifle/carbine and LMG with a true intermediate calibre cartridge should be selected and still could be. Something like the 6mm ARC, but not necessarily the 6mm ARC. Osprey Combat designed the 6.5mm Super Z that uses the 6.8mm SPC necked down and shortened to the fire the 6.5mm cartridge that wouod be a good off-the-shelf design. I would argue optimizing the 6.5mm Super Z further to fire the .243/6.2mm bullet to achieve 6mm ARC performance would be even better. I am betting Sig could redesign their weapons on short notice to fire a 6.2m/.243 optimzed bi-metal cartridge and the NGSW would be an incredible success.
Furthermore, the 6.8x51mm could be retained for DMRs, shorter range sniper weapons, GPMGs and mini-guns.
Who are these idiots that think you should be able to take a big scoop of mud and dump it inside the ejection port and not have the gun malfunction? That's just dumb.
The army times did a hit piece against the M7 and the internet magically associated it with the M7 getting canceled 🙄🙄🙄
Not magical at all. The article literally stated that as fact. It isn't, obviously.
The M4 will be in service way past the time we are in the dirt.
I don't think the M4 has another 50 years in it as a USA military service weapon.
Press X for doubt 💀
@@lordhuck2689 Sure, m2 .50, B52...
ARs on Mars!
@@JMark-zk5pj Neither a Bomber nor a .50 BMG Machine Gun are obsolete on a modern Battlefield and will not be obsolete for Decades. Glorified .22 Hornet (also known as 5.56) is already obsolete..
The suggested retail on the 308 or SBR makes the SCAR look cheap. We have a few coming to sell and test at our shop
Why are SCARs so expensive still?
FN isn't trying to very competitive. Are they making enough money off of them to keep the price up or what?
Hey, sorry to bother you but I have been looking everywhere. Do you know when you guys will get them in?
@@redwolftufelhundin5433 it's the name brand, that's why they charge $1000+ for any handgun.
The only way I'd buy either, is if they were free.
@@redwolftufelhundin5433 I think it's because they never really expanded production. They probably assume it lacks mass market appeal, and so the price stays high which ensures it never gets mass market appeal: a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Vortex did a podcast on the new opic for the military if you want to know more. But as you guys know they can only indulge so much information
I get the feeling these boomers love people like Dan Crenshaw.
Even Chris Bartocci predicts it won't succeed as they say it will......
Chris has been wrong before.
Chris is just mad that it's in FDE and not black
@@estmed 🤣
Still in a wait and see more myself. Weight comparison, how's it measure up to the new Rugar 308? If it's comparable then it won't be a huge issue. Will be very interesting to see how the SOF guys take it when they get their hands on it.
Optic... " made in China ", that part is wrong I know. Want to say Wisconsin. But double check that.
The Ruger .308 SFAR is the best battle rifle choice for both civilians and the military, but Sig gets about EVERY small arms contract these days 🙄.
@@mattandrews8528 The Ruger sfar is junk shooting 6.8 would blow that gun apart.
The SFAR is a fine enough civilian rifle, but it isn't built to sustain automatic fire in 7.62x51mm, much less the more potent 6.8x51mm.
@@ostiariusalphaRight. Zero chance of a Ruger getting a .mil contract haha
I absolutely knew this article was wrong.
Well said.
Excellent information as always. Losing sleep waiting on the SIG SPEAR .308 16 and possibly the XM7. The ATF... USA No. #1 SIG and the military are creating jobs and opportunities for Americans. Creating new and perfecting new technologies. While furthering the strength of the USA.
although it probably should be.