The History of Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver - Artifacts of Arda
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver was the sword of an unknown Elf in the First Age and Thorin Oakenshield in the Third Age, and we explore its short yet interesting history in this video! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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"You could not wish for a finer blade!" - Gandalf
Fun fact, the prop designers for the Hobbit put crystals and a fountain at the bottom of the hilt of Orcrist. We all know it belonged to Ecthelion
When even the prop designers have fan theories and want to make them canon in some way.
@@spencersholden it’s a pretty good approximation, actually. Seeming as Glorfindel and Ecthelion were Turgon’s captains. Glorfindel parished on the cleft overlooking the city fighting the Balrog. Whereas Ecthelion drowned in the fountain of the King’s square slaying Gothmog. It’s more plausible that Ecthelion’s sword would have been the one to be found and recovered. Also, Ecthelion was a war cry among the Eldar in ages afterwards, because of how many orcs he slew in battle.
*Ecthelion's sword caused "hurt to their [balrogs'] fire"* , but that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to evidence of Ecthelion wielding Orcrist, as I discovered just last night. What fortuitous timing that you should upload this video today!
If you'll indulge me, I shall relay my journey to you. If you'll not, I will place the evidence in *bold* for those who are in a rush.
I was keen to learn about Ecthelion, as a singer and musician myself I found him a kindred spirit, and when I came across that detail about his sword somehow harming the fires of the Balrogs l said to myself "What an odd claim, I must know more", leading me to watch several videos on the special swords of the legendarium, and your excellent recap of the Fall Of Gondolin.
One of these videos had a simple but fascinating comment:
*"No Balrog has been slain except by bearers of swords made in Gondolin"*
Is this true? After some research, yes I believe it is:
*Glamdring kills at least 1 Balrog, (Durin's Bane) in Gandalf's hands, but likely killed more wielded by Turgon in the War of Wrath.*
*Tuor killed 5 Balrogs with Dramborleg* , an axe presumably forged in Gondolin.
*Glorfindel killed 1 Balrog* during the Fall of Gondolin, and *Ecthelion killed 3 in the same battle* (in addition to Gothmog which he did not slay with his sword). *Both* were Lords of Gondolin and *used swords presumably of Gondolin.*
So, yes, *all recorded Balrog deaths seem to have been by people wielding weapons of Gondolin* (even if the weapon didn't deliver the finishing blow, though they often did).
*Given his friendship with Turgon, owner of Glamdring* , and the fact that they fought side by side in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (Battle of Unnumbered Tears), *it seems exceedingly likely that the mate of Glamdring, Orcrist, was wielded by Ecthelion during this time.*
It is said that *Ecthelion and his house slayed more orcs in the defense of Gondolin than had been slain in all the previous battles of Elves and Orcs combined. That would explain its name as the "Orc-cleaver"* , (orcs and goblins were synonymous in The Hobbit), *and corresponding reputation* among the orcs of the Misty Mountains.
So I think *it is very very likely that Ecthelion possessed Orcrist, and that Gondolin-forged blades had some power about them which proved very effective against Balrogs* , when no other weapons seemed capable of harming them.
It's so cool that new things like this can still be discovered and pieced together even after all this time, such is the unfathomably rich world Tolkien created!💜
You make a very interesting detailed point.
Reading that I think you might be right.
As a fangirl of Echtelion, I thank you alot for this detail analysis. I also think that Echtelion is the original bearer of Orcrist. He was after all called as "the warcry of the Eldar" for taking down so many orcs (and balrogs) than anyone else in middle Earth history.
I was kind of shocked to see the comment about Tuor killing Balrogs. I didn't remember that happening. Seems kind of inconsistent considering the Elves and Gandalf all died in the process of killing Balrogs. I guess it was in the one book I actually never finished, Fall of Gondolin. Great, now I have to start that again!
I have a replica of Orcrist hanging on my wall. First Age weapons are priceless.
I envy you
Jealous. I don’t have that, but I have Vader’s saber and the Damascus Sword from Alita
@@starkilr101 very nice. The Damascus blade must look nice from Alita.
@@shadowofchaos8932 it does
I have both Orcrist and Anduril replicas. Will be adding Glamdring and Sting this year.
Thae fact it was recognized from a time from before the fall of Gondolin proves that orcs and goblins can live a REALLY long time
Any possibility that because orcs are corrupted elves, they maintained at least some of their longevity?
From what I know of orcish "culture" (admittedly extremely little) they wouldn't have writings or even songs/epic poems that would pass down legends.
@@markuhler2664 It's very possible that they have songs/epic poems that would pass down legends of battle. Many of these epic poems are very warlike which would make sense for a very warlike goblin or orc culture.
But it's also infuriating since Tolkien himself stated: "Orcs are not Elvish"... although, to be fair, that was written after Lotr.
A most fascinating journey into the history of a weapon that has earned its place among many of the great weapons that have appeared throughout the ages of Middle Earth. I find it somewhat interesting that many of the weapons, Tolkien named were swords, like here for example, but he also told others. Like Aeglos, the spear of the Elf-king Gil-Galad. Belthronding, Beleg's bow. Dramborleg, Tuor's axe. Even the mace of Morgoth, Grond Hammer of the Underworld.
My head-canon theory for Sting is that it was crafted for a young Earendil, who lost it in the fall of Gondolin, probably disarmed by Maeglin.
Personally, I like the idea that it was a letter-opener. Seems appropriate for a Hobbit.
"a *_kickass_* blade, forged by _Elvis"_
One day we may see an adaption of the Fall of Gondolin and we might also be able to see the forging of Orcrist and its mate Glamdring. Would be amazing to see
I gotta confess I really like the appearance of the blade in the hobbit films, it just has such an interesting design. Honestly it’s probably one of my favorite Elven weapons in general.
Edit: The fact that it also serves as a symbol of friendship between the two races just makes me even more happy as I really love both elves and dwarves.
Despite the amount of animosity the Hobbit movies suffer due to having too much details needlessly added, I always admire how the Orcrist was designed for both the book and movies.
Now I want to hear a story about someone duel-wielding Orcist & Glamdring.
Orcrist and Sting I'll allow!
Yeah me!! In my front room. I have the foam larp swords, Orcrist, sting, Glamdring and Anduril, just wish I had 4 hands.🤣👑💍👑
Perfect timing since I just finished reading the hobbit yesterday
Nice
In my head canon, the mithril coat that Bilbo and Frodo wear, and sting were created for Earendil when he was child.
I always thought that the Mithril coat was forged in Erebor, since that was where it was housed. Maybe for a young Legolas.
Orcrist is a very interesting sword, not only did it once slain both orcs and goblins during much of the first age, but it even manages to make a comeback after Thorin got his hands on it and uses it to cleave the goblins again in the third age. I've also just listened to the first couple of hours of the Hobbit audiobook a few days ago with Andy Serkis reading the book. So, seeing this was quite an icing on the cake for me.
For as much hate “The Hobbit” gets Thorin was a bright spot.
The Biter, bright as daylight!
I though Martin Freeman was great as Bilbo
I’ve never understood the hate for those movies
(Aside from the girl elf)
I thought all 6 movies are fantastic
Man you need your own show! Your content is always so.good!
An amazing video about an amazing weapon!!! True weapon of a king!!!
I know I keep repeating this but I would love to see a series of "Not so Epic Character Histories" of the very minor characters in the Legendarium, that don't have enough information for stand alone videos so instead just a video of all the characters in one book at a time. So for example the "Not so Epic Character Histories: Children of Hurin" would cover Sador, Urwen, Nellas, Saeros etc.
My first 4K discs are LoTR of course and I watched them carefully at Christmas. They forgot to give Glamdring a blue glow in the presence of orcs. There's even a scene with Gandalf wielding it while stood next to Frodo with who has a glowing Sting!
Oh sweet an artifact video here we go
Thanks guys. ( you had me with the title)
Man Orcrist is one of the most epic swords in (one of the coolest looking) the legendarium!
Thanks, Mellon for Finishing the Trio of Swords in The Hobbit...Until Why, The Witch King is So Powerful...Marion Baggins Out!!!
P.S As soon as I finished this, I caught up to date on every Westernesse Podcast Episodes!!!
orcrist being ecthelions sword is a pretty solid theory!
It was named 'the goblin cleaver' and if you see passages from the fall of Gondolin, Ecthelion and his house did wonders when meeting the host of the orcs after they were brought in after reserve. Ecthelion's name was a feared name after that battle, I wouldn't be surprised if he wielded such a weapon
Excellent videos as always. May I recomend that you do a video on "What if Turin went to rescue Finuilas First". I think it would be an interesting video and story to see what would happen.
Thank you for all the content you put out. Especially these little gems.
It always bothered my the Orcrist and Glamdring didn’t glow blue when Orcs were near in the movies, like Sting. Such a bad oversight.
It always bothered me that the movie didn't follow the books in the ONE event that would have shown that Thranduil finally accepted that the dwarves were honorable people, when he placed Orchrist on Thorin's tomb.
Excellent breakdown and life lesson!
Can't wait for the what-if video for what if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Theres that Kampagne in "Battle for Middleearth" 1 where Gandalf and Boromir survive Moria/Amon Hen. It's a different, but entertaining story!
My grandson choose Thorin Oakenshield to honor at Halloween. I made his costume but we purchased a life size replica of ORCRIST from a costume shop. It was heavy enough for this 8 year old and he carried it with pride.
A video on the lands and kingdoms of Beleriand as they are described in their chapter in the Silmarillion. I found that very chapter the most difficult to comprehend until where I am now at the chapter of Beren and Luthien.
"These swords were not made by any troll."
"Nor were they made by any smith among men."
Always helps to have a glowing sword in life 😀
Man I would loved to have seen this and all the great swords in battle, shining in the sun, cleaving foe after foe. Orcrist, Anduril, Glamdring, all of them, slaying side by side. I need a mega epic battle just like in Endgame where they all come together.....sigh
Unless your an Elf fleeing from Gondolin. Then the scene is distracting as you are fleeing for your life as the City burns and few escape through the secret passage.
I always suspected orcrist was for use on horseback and glamdring for fighting on foot ( by turgon ) maded swords usually implies , made by the same person for ( brothers or father and son or brother and sister) or for a single user for different purposes.
Thinking of buying this sword replica in the near future. Already have Sting. But this one is even more beautiful
If you like cool weapons, check out a UA-camr named Kyle Royer. Dude makes some PHENOMENALLY BEAUTIFUL knives and swords.
Thank you for doing these fascinating videos of the weaponry of Middle Earth!! I hope you u do more of the others in the armory in the many races of Middle Earth!!
It’s a great looking blade!
It’s the Goblin Cleaver!!!
Loved the video and have a suggestion for one. How did the Trolls of the "troll shawes" get the purse that could talk? I already know why Tolkien abandoned the idea but it was interesting.
Okay, I was on the edge, but now I'm convinced: Thorin and Gandalf were boinking.
imo its the most beautiful sword ever forged by man or elf or dwarf.
Look up "Kyle Royer Excelsior" sometime.
@@Thomas.Wright i will. Thanks for the suggestion.
My own personal headcanon was that Orcrist was borne by Rocg of the House of the Hammer of Wrath, but I know they bore axes and war hammers though.
While I love the design of the movie version of Orcrist (I have a UC replica of it on my wall, among many others), part of me wishes they'd made it closer in appearance to Glamdring. And they did experiment with that - in fact one of the design sketches shows Orcrist looking like a mashup of Sting, Glamdring, and Thranduil's sword - but according to Weta designer Paul Tobin, Peter Jackson wanted a distinctive blade that couldn't be mistaken for Glamdring, and he wanted it single-edged and heavy bladed, a chopping weapon, since it was going to be wielded by a Dwarf. Also, the idea for the dragon's tooth hilt was literally, "hey, since it's called Biter, why not make it a tooth? Ooh, wait - why not make it a DRAGON'S tooth! Yeah!" And Jackson loved the idea, so there you go :)
Can't speak for Orcrist but I now have a mental picture of Gandalf arriving back in Aman with Glamdring and seeing Turgon who shouts "Oi, that's MY FEKIN' SWORD, give it back"...and then the whole cycle starts over...
Then again, Gandalf would probably just give it back and say, "It served me well, but I don't need it anymore."
Was it any good at buttering toast though?
"This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade." -- Elrond, "A Short Rest"
Such a positive message at the end
Named swords ars always cool, in any book ....... al the more so in Tolkien's works because there are so few examples.
wow nice way to end this video. good metaphor mate :)
Biter! 😱
Glamdrimg and Orchrist show us how Tolkien hadn't originally realised how the events in Hobbit and elder days were connected
I like learning these because I'm too poor to buy the books
A local library should have them or at least order them. & used book stores are great for picking up copies on the cheap.
Ok thanks for the tip
How would you feel if these artifacts appeared in the Amazon series before being lost in the troll caves?
That would be great honestly! It would be very neat to see Elves or even Orcs or brigands in possession of such weaponry before they are lost again.
Great video as always friend love to learn more about my favourite franchise keeps up the amazing work friend
Hope the LOTR Amazon show will be good and not a disappointment
Good vid, I like short, sometimes I just want a short burst of Arda.
Orcrist 2023 is called the empress: I finally have my Butterfly Balisong Goblin cleaver by Fellowship Blades with it being inspired by this blade. I EDC it daily :)
Thank you, Loremaster. Can you do one on Sting? Or have you already
A second great video as always Men of the West, and I love the sword.
Thanks!
Another great video
FYI the elves of Gondolin were only remote kinfolk of Thranduil, since the elves of Gondolin were Noldor and the elves of Mirkwood were Sindar of the Teleri, probably mostly descended from elves of Doriath that never saw the light of the Two Trees, unlike most of the Noldor of the First Age. A small thing, but noteworthy.
I wonder if thorin would have survived the battle if he had his blade with him.
Could you make a video about Ëonwe?
I liked how in the movie, Thorin wanted to leave it. But pulled it from its scabbard and was so impressed
Also, if Orcrist and Gamdring did glow blue when Orcs were near, how is it that Goldolin was taken by surprise?
Not so much by surprise, but their hidden location betrayed, and they became surrounded (they already were effectively surrounded, the enemy just couldn't find the city)
@@darthvegan435 also, I just re read that section. It says they were celebrating a holiday and were not being vigilant. Oh the hubris.
And didn’t most blades forged in Gondolin glow blue if I’m not mistaken? I mean it would be cool to see a film adaptation of the festival ongoing while the swords starting to appear blue in the armouries in Gondolin.
"Firedrake of Gondolin"
I would think it would be Ecthelion’s for two reasons: first, that it would have to be wielded by one of extreme renown for the Goblin King to recognize it so many millennia later, and second, because Ecthelion fell fighting Gothmaug at the fountain, very near to where Turgon died. Glorfindel fell from the cliffs very distant from those others, and it’s unlikely that his sword would’ve been recoverable by the same creatures who found Glamdring.
1 of my most fave blades from the hobbit I own a replica if it such a beautiful blade
Now that is a weapon Goblin-Slayer could be interested in.
The blade that sliced a thousand necks!!
Classy.
One of the four great swords on the Third Age.
I would love if ecthelian wielded orcrist, it would make so much sense and add more confirmed lore to the epic weapon.
Assuming it's Ecthelion's sword, then both it and Glamdring were used against famous balrogs.
I wonder who owned the Fang that its hilt was made feom in the Hobbit Movies.
The only bit of lore that never made sense to me is when the Goblins saw it when the dwarves went into the mountains a weapon that have been lost for two ages they recognized?
It had been thousands and thousands of years since those swords had been seen, and yet mortal goblins recognized it I found out a little odd...
It's always bothered me that the disigners of The Hobbit films gave Orcrist a dragon tooth hilt. It doesn't really make sense. Not only were the dragons the greatest weapon of distruction used against the elves, meaning that I doubt an elf would want to honour dragons in this way, but how was a smith of Gondolin supposed to get his hands on one in the first place? The Gondolithrim were settled in the hidden city over a hundred years before Glaurung first appeared, and didn't do battle against any dragons until the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, which is apparently where Orcrist earned its reputation. The only, even slightly feasible logic is that someone brought a tooth back with them somehow when they hastily fled the Nirneath Arnoediad, meaning the sword could have only appeared in the Siege of Gondolin, as Turgon had forbidden ventures out into the mountains at this point and the Eagles were making sure there were no orc scouts returning to Angband with information about where Gondolin could be.
If Orcrist and Glamdring were "mates" then why do they look so different in the movies? My guess is the producers insisted on making them visually distinct so viewers not familiar with the books would easily tell them apart. Ecthelion of the Fountain used a shield, as did Turgon, so both swords could be wielded with one hand. Granted, Ecthelion and Turgon were two or three feet taller than the average middle-earth dwarf which would justify a two-handed approach for Thorin, but not for Gandalf.
I'm becoming a nerd for lotr rn.
👍
it had a dragon tooth at the hilt?? straight up thought it was wood
Goblin Slayer would love this beautiful blade.
Okay, really don't like how this operated; for months I've had the notification bell clicked on for your channel yet wasn't alerted about this video weird. Sorry for the grinchy start, just like to know whenever you update Yoystan, as I hate missing a single one of your videos.
Tbh I always thought Orcrist was Ecthelion's sword, so I guess you aren't alone in having this headcanon (though difference was I had assumed this was the implication by Tolkien and only upon reading the History of ME & Silmarillion months ago realised this was false).
Orcrist and glamdring dual wield in a battle....hehe 😜
I always thought it belonged to glorfindel…,
Would you like me to send you a replica
*I KNOW THAT SWORD*
seventh!!!!
How could orcs in the late 3rd age possibly know a sword from 1st age?
It’s stupid to keep the sword in the tomb !
Nah one of those things that just bothered me. How would the Goblins know this sword if it had been lost so very long ago. It’s doubtful any orcs or goblins that had been at the battle were left alive. I mean any orc that saw it was likely dead killed by it or one of the other swords. And why leave such an incredible weapon on the tomb of a dead dwarf ?
First
So how the hell did it end up in the cave of three trolls?