In the original game's disc 2 Highwind scene, if Cloud has low affinity with Tifa, he's uninterested and platonic with her, and it takes 50+ affection points to get her "high affinity" scene - in which Cloud will be warm and romantic. So it'd make sense that Rebirth's church date was the same.. but it isn't. The important thing here is that Cloud has dated Aerith before - most logically, that he understands her feelings for Zack have resolved and she's interested in him now. If he doesn't hear that, then he still makes the first line asking her for another date, but chickens out when she presses him about what "next time" means. Thus, it seems that unlike the Highwind scene (where his interest in Tifa is variable based on affinity), Cloud is always interested in Aerith, he's just afraid she might not actually feel the same or still be hung up on Zack. Great analysis, you're spot on.
😂😂😂 You know this is your deepest hope but far from fact. The scene conditions are based to give romantic closure for those that chose to date her. Since it would not make sense in the context of someone who dated someone else. You’re just desperate to find canonical proof instead of having to settle for mild romantic implications if you go the optional route.
@@mikev8746a guy who spams emojis is desperate to seem like his mental and emotional instability is an argument for his position. If anyone in a live debate reacted like you, you’d immediately be the loser. An appeal to incredulity isn’t a logical argument that builds on a foundational premise. It’s the opposite of a good argument. To sum it up, you’re mentally incapable of making an argument that is persuasive beyond “mUh SiMpY feEWInGZzzz”. What kind of sperg goes commenting 67 times on a channel, and somehow thinks they’re in a position to make a convincing argument?
@@mothingham What does that even mean hahahaha? the devs could have had numerous reasons for why the scene is triggered like this. you're delusional and calling me bitter just for playing Mr Reality and pulling you people out of the emotional muck wont change that. > so it was never about Cloud friendzoning Aerith And also this line of yours just betrays what you initially feared. And how relieved you seemingly were to think it wasn't the case.
Very cool. When we thought LA determined that scene, some people thought that in the “LA” route it was implying that he didn’t have feelings for Aerith and that his feelings were determined on whether you got HA or LA but it’s actually closer to the opposite. Cloud’s lines there are not based on his own feelings but rather, what he THINKS Aerith’s feelings are. If he doesn’t have either of the dates, he doesn’t get clarity that Aerith likes him now so he’s more reserved about his feelings in that line. This definitely changes the perspective of the scene and really you can’t use it as an indicator that Cloud’s feelings only apply in the HA route anymore like some people have.
WOW! I absolutely love this explanation! You really have put this all into a new perspective that makes perfect sense! This is so well explained, thank you for this!
1) Its game code, not game writing. Basing lore assumptions on code is hilarious and you would disregard this sort of practice if the other shippers did this. 2) The only thing this discovery concludes is that the outcome of the dream date isnt based on how high your affinity bar is with Aerith post Ch 12 date. So theres no way to date other characters and then to max her affinity afterward before making your way to the TotA. Allowing you to get the nicer scene with Aerith anyway. It can only occur if she was your date. This just means if Cloud spends more time with her he softens up and obviously he is more thoughtfull toward her during the dream date. Why would this at all implicate anything about his internal uncertainty?
Many people tried to say that Aerith still likes Zack and that the dream date wasn’t romantic, when the developers went out of their way to make different scenes because she did, in fact, say on the GS date that she likes Cloud now and their feelings were reciprocated. If it wasn’t a romance plot point then they wouldn’t have done this. It should be obvious but the way I try to see people twist it is insane
Love all of this! People will still try to twist this somehow of course, but they are doing it without anything to back them. At this point it's truly willful ignorance on their part. But for us, it's amazing how these scenes have context and narrative, we better understand them now. And of course the end result remains the same :)
@@Uhoh_itsAshleyin all fairness, what gives you the impression that he chooses Aerith? He wasn't happy on his date with her in Corel del sol. Whatever Yr option in kalm, we have no choice by to go on the date. He didnt look happy when Aerith told the party they went on a date after that. In the dream date, Aerith tells him to play along and it's not like he can get out of it. In the saucer date, can't remember which one, I think chpt 8, outside his hotel room, Aerith had to pull him to get him going. There's no hating here. It's just that you said he seems so naturally happy with her. But that's not really true.
@@Uhoh_itsAshley The big one is that there are two versions of the highwind scene in the OG and in one he basically rejects her romantic affection. I would always argue the lifestream scene references Cloud's feelings as a child, not presently. The fact that you can get the lower-affection highwind scene after this backs that up. Plus, with the lifestream scene, Tifa has affectively fulfilled her purpose in the story to help Cloud remember the truth. Meanwhile, Cloud continues to pursue Sephiroth so that Holy can save the planet as Aerith intended, and he points this out.
She certainly struggles moving on and during the dream date she still does. How else would you explain the “I like you, but liking and liking are two different things” The date is meant as romantic though. Just not to the intense extent you wish it to be. This whole video only confirms that if you date Aerith then Cloud is more warmed up to her. If you dont date her hes not. Assigning his internal thoughts and feelings to him as a biased audience is laughable. Unless there are clear canonical confirmations this is the case you couldnt assume anything. This whole video and comment sections speaks more louder on this communities desires and wishes than those of Cloud. A fully written character you should be able to understand without cherry picking game condition code.
So this basically eliminates the possibility of a question or argument that it matter how high her affliction is that Cloud is friend-zoning etc etc , it’s the soul indication of the confusion and uncertainty with Cloud of if Aerith has feelings for him (in his mind) so he stays reserved but only if you do the dates in 8 / 12 cause it gives more confirmation to Cloud that Aerith likes him especially if you do the skywheel date which he gets that confirmation from Aerith that she wants to be with him it’s another way of the devs throwing in there that Aerith is the supposed date cause this also goes in line with your breakdown of the No Date to Date Aerith of this scene in chapter 14.
It's so cool to know that all along this was about Cloud being sure or not being sure of Aerith's feelings toward him and not the other way around. Funny enough it was him not wanting to get "friendzoned." LOL
Normally when a game lets you choose a romantic partner for your character, your choosing how your character feels. The fact that FF7 is a little different, as it's implied that Cloud always has feelings for Aerith but 'can' potentially misunderstand Aerith's feelings, really shows how choices in games aren't always straight forward.
Everything leading up to the scene in chapter 14 makes more sense from a narrative stand point. Cloud would have no real way to know Aerith's feelings if the dates never happened.
@@mlwjrpg I’ve always seen an interesting symmetry between Cloud and Aerith in the fact that both of them have their feelings split between two people. I think Rebirth effectively shows Aerith mulling over her feelings for Zack, but ultimately coming to the conclusion that she wants to be with Cloud. Like you say though, unless Cloud goes on a date prior to Chapter 14, Cloud never has a chance to learn Aerith’s feelings. Does this mean that no matter who the player chooses, Cloud and Aerith will choose each other? (Can’t wait for part 3)
@@davidpaul1733 i think that's the square Enix's game plan and how it works. They're giving us the freedom as player to choose who Cloud will end up with in the resolution scene and the GS date (and maybe the highwind too). However, no matter what the player choose, the narrative will lead into Cloud and Aerith choosing each other and ending up together (better hope this is right)
I don’t want to jump the gun because there is still a very significant chance that the conclusion to Cloud’s romantic journey will be the players choice and It might be too much to hope for the series to end Cloud and Aerith’s wedding…. But imagine a Cloud and Aerith wedding! Also imagine if they did a time jump and we could see there kids? We will see how it all shakes out.
I love this because that’s the thing a lot of FF7 fans don’t get. Cloud is not a self-insert, he’s not choosing between the two girls based on your choice. His feelings for Aerith are always present, but it’s what he KNOWS at the time that determines his response. It’s all a case of Dramatic Irony. If we date Tifa in Chapter 12, Cloud never has Aerith’s feelings confirmed, so he’s left with questions and uncertainties that triggers his LA response. That’s the only determined case. Genius on the devs part honestly.
It's been about Cloud having an idea of Aerith's feelings and not the other way around. Ch12 is the big one for sure, but it still makes sense if they don't date in ch12 but date in ch8. The interactions and conversations on that date make it clear enough for Cloud. Even the talk in front of the Jessie picture in the Event square shows Aerith possibly hinting to Cloud her feelings.
But isnt that the whole story though? His arc with Aerith is the tragic unfulfilled love interest that never truly materialized or became fully clear. And his arc with Tifa is the childhood hometown crush that bubbles to the surface after they reunite by fate and in the end they find their way in the midst of dire world ending odds. Or are you denying all this and rewriting the entire games plot just to outdo the main romantic interrest? Whats so wrong about being the other option?
@@mikev8746what are you on about? Aerith and Cloud’s meeting is literally called a meeting of fate, both in the OG and Remake trilogy promotional material, ultimanias, bios, etc. Tifa is an important character to Cloud’s past, not denying that, but it’s not them who are untwined by Fate’s design. And you are correct on the tragedy of Cloud and Aerith, that’s what the OG compilation was based on, especially evident in Advent Children. That’s really the main reason for the Remake trilogy, the challenge of Fate’s design, the breaking of worlds, the splitting of timelines. What comes next? No clue, we’ll see in Part 3. But nothing is being denied here, at least not by me. Your comment though is clearly obtuse on what role you think Tifa plays in this series. She’s a vital character, but not for the role you headcanoned her into. Also I’m literally explaining the game’s plot and you’re saying I’m twisting it? Obviously you have no idea what the plot even is if that’s what you think.
@@Msis03 > Aerith and Cloud’s meeting is literally called a meeting of fate Could say the same about him and Tifa after their reunion. Without her he would never have snapped out of it prior to the bombing mission. I'm not sure why you don't see these female characters share similar yet different themes in regard to him. It's the same theme with a different spin. And I struggle to see how a meeting being fated automatically makes some sort of romantic statement. > Tifa is an important character to Cloud’s past, not denying that, but it’s not them who are untwined by Fate’s design. What do you mean? Again you could argue she's way more important in the climax of the story of FF7, atleast to Cloud. And meanwhile Aerith is more important on the meta level of the story, namely helping with holy and summoning the lifestream against meteor. If you want to convince me you need to give me examples not statements. Fates design? What does that even mean? > That’s really the main reason for the Remake trilogy, the challenge of Fate’s design, the breaking of worlds, the splitting of timelines. What comes next? No clue, we’ll see in Part 3. Obviously that's what you want to read into it but I really doubt they will rewrite what happens in the OG finale here. Just that they will expand on it and give more insight and perspectives. So if you're expecting some sort of big revival or wedding switch then there's no real foundation for that other than your personal hope. Which again is understandable but not something reality has to align with. Simply said, I doubt Aerith will just be revived like she's a player character in an MMORPG. But there could be some sort of send off or spiritual alignement between the alive and dead characters. Again this element could be great for closure and wrapping up lose ends. Very bad for shipping hopes. My opinion is that the Aerith shipping community has automatically set themselves up for failure because they refuse the story and rather wish for the fantasy. What you want is not inherently wrong or weird at all. In fact everyone partially wished things had gone differently in the story. That's how loss works. But it's this theme and conclusion that automatically makes it hard to argue there's any future for these characters without getting into semantics and in the case of Retrilogy - hoping for multiverse time traveling merging of worlds magic. That's just very unlikely. The other shipping community has the benefit of just having to cheer on two characters whom both are alive and have some serious history and pent up emotions for eachother as verified throughout the compilation, factually and quotable. This is absent regarding this ship. But despite that its very clear that there always was something there. And they share something special. So again what lead you here is very logical. It's just that the story went differently. > But nothing is being denied here, at least not by me. Thats very respectable at the very least. Though I'm unclear what part you are exactly not dispiting. I'll just assume you somewhat to understand the story but just have your wishes. Which is fair. > Your comment though is clearly obtuse on what role you think Tifa plays in this series. She’s a vital character, but not for the role you headcanoned her into. And whats that role? I'm just a guy that played the games so I'm just going off what I heard and read. If there's some overarching metaphysical messaging here then maybe I missed that. But the role I interpreted for her is just that which was written in the story. > Also I’m literally explaining the game’s plot and you’re saying I’m twisting it? My point is that if you understand the games plot you would recognize the games events. You did elude that you accepted the events of OG atleast and that you hope that Retrilogy concludes differently. I'm operating under the impression it will be very similar to OG as I've also done prior to Rebirth's release. So maybe it's just a temporary different concept we have for this remake series's plot. Mine that it's fixed and yours that it can be undermined. But you can't fault me for just assuming the story will be the story as it's always been. You wishing for something new and different is the uncertain option here afterall. But all is possible.
This video clears so much up. And I think it's smart how the devs turned an affinity dialogue from the OG of Cloud being jealous and expanded on it-- making Aerith unsure and having Cloud remember Zack-- created a new conflict that either gets resolved early with Aerith's dates and reaffirmed in chapter 14 with a confident Cloud, or resolved in chapter 14 with Aerith confessing to Cloud.
If Cloud's response is dependent on getting just 1 of the Aerith dates between Ch8/12, then it also fits in narratively with his conversations with Barret or Nanaki on the Gondola. Barret tells him to think about who it is he truly wants and confess before it's too late, and telling Aerith that he wants to have another date with her does just that. Nanaki's statements about Aerith clearly made him uncomfortable, but he promises to protect her regardless of what the future brings.
@@mlwjrpg What the hell are you on about man? Are you saying I'm reading into the fact that you're reading into it? 😂 Because that's not how this works hahaha
Cloud probably thinks chapter 14 is “friend” behavior cuz they do a lot of romance coded activities outside of dating in chapters 8&12 despite 1. Not being “together” and 2. Her saying in gogonga that she still likes zack. so in his head (without explicit confirmation from 8or12) he’s probably thinking “oh she’s just like this, she’s flirty like Jessie, but it’s not real, so this must also be ‘friend stuff’” especially after she told in 14 of remake that him falling for her was not real, he doesn’t have the context of why she’s saying that, only we do, so he probably took it literally.
Hate to break it to you but Cloud on your TV is not real.. 😂. He’s a written character. Writers do write their characters out in depth. But not to the crazy headspinning angles you and others seem to rationalize. There’s a professional way of writing believable characters. And if your and OPs theory were to be correct the assumptions made here would be sprinkled out in the story like bread crumbs. There would for example be a scene where Cloud acts really confused about her behavior and tries to think back to what Zack told him about her. Trying to figure out if she’s flirty like that with everyone. Because fictional characters arent real people the writers do this to make the story clear to the audience. Show, dont tell. And there’s absolutely no indication any of this you and OP proposed are elements that really occupy Clouds thoughts. Because its never shown. In any bit of dialogue. Its all in your heads and assumed based on how a real person might think.
So the conclusion is if cloud have dated aerith at the gold saucer (either in ch 8 or ch 12), he would've known that aerith had feelings towards him. That's why at the church, he said "Next time". But if he hadn't date aerith at the gold saucer, he wouldn't known whether aerith has feelings towards him or not + not sure if she had moved on from Zack or not. That's why he said "i mean, why not?" because he wasn't sure about Aerith's feeling towards him. But whatever happens , cloud eventually knows that aerith loves him too. And now because cloud knows that aerith loves him too, i think we will get a scene where cloud will confess his feeling towards aerith in part 3
All along it was about Cloud knowing or not knowing about Aerith's feelings toward him vs the other way around. I can't wait for part 3 now, I'm confident in where this is going!
At what point does Aerith (or the story) point blank state she loves him? Or for her to do something only people in love do? So far she has avoided kissing him. Brought up Zack allot. And when she could have confessed before her death. She gives a cryptic line about how she likes him but there’s liking and liking. And no please dont headspin things and say “she loves him but knows shes about to die!”. Thats trying to think for the character. I want factual proof she is in love with him and doesnt just confusingly like him. See with Tifa its really easy. She attempts to kiss him. Tells Yuffie she had a crush on him as of a certain point. And in relevant official side material (Traces) its flat out stated that the night of the promise was the moment she “fell in love”. So thats atleast 3 cold hard facts. So where is the Aerith equalivent? Again I’m sure you and all the other shippers truly believe this to be the case. But for people that dont ship and want to just understand the story. As supposed ‘experts’ on their relationship. Where is this stated in the game or the book? So far its clear to me that both characters are never really sure about eachother. That also seems to be the whole point of their arc. Why her death is impactful etc.
@@mikev8746 I don't have all day to explain it. But if you really want to know about it, there's a bunch of references you can search for that proves that Aerith loves Cloud and so does Cloud (FFVII Ultimania omega, on the way to a smile, the GS date in OG and rebirth, the dream date, Advent children etc) And one more thing. Actually you don't have to do the research that much. Because even the player who doesn't ship (either cloti, clerith or even zerith) and just want to know the story, can see that Aerith loves Cloud (Actually i want to give you a link of a post that can prove it, but i can't because my comment always get deleted when i try to post the link. Already attempt it like 3 Times and still got deleted)
@@mikev8746 I think your comment kind of encapsulates what's so frustrating about porting this Japanese game over to a Western audience. A Western audience sees romance in the direct, which is what you're searching for. But the Japanese audience sees much more romance in the implication: being able to read the atmosphere. Japanese culture has historically painted relationships that "just know" that the feeling is mutual as more romantic, emphasizing a spiritual connection that need not be put to words to be understood. Direct words, in fact, are seen as heavy and to cheapen the sentiment. Japanese people to this day still do not directly use the word for love (aishiteru) to people important to them unless on their deathbed; they will use a lighter word (suki) instead, which is more naturally translated to the English word "like". Meanwhile actions are seen as showing true affection, like Cloud risking life and limb to save a girl he just met and then spending ages trying to get her back or defeat the man that ended her. These actions would be understood to a Japanese audience as proof of Cloud's love for Aerith because he's willing to go so far for her. And meanwhile Aerith's love would be read because she's willing to wait for him to find her or return to her, which is literally historically one of the most romantic and loving things a woman could do in Japanese culture. "I'll always be waiting for you!" plagues the Japanese romance scene at this point imo, but in this case, I think we actually have a shot of Cloud finding Aerith again, so the wait might finally be over. Loveless also really drives this home with not only Aerith's song about them finding each other again, but also Aerith's lines as Rosa pertaining to love and being able to intuitively know that the Hero was in trouble. Now, whether CLOUD picks up on this is a subject for debate and one of the main points addressed in this video. I would argue the game still has literal signs of Aerith's affections though. She flirts with Cloud all the time. She confesses to him in chapter 14. Half of her side quests and large parts of her story route are dates. She even literally sings her heart out to him about wanting to meet at their place in every playthrough of the game, no matter whose date you're on. As far as other media go, the FF7R Ultimania is what directly states in the producer's notes on the script that she was talking to herself when she said not to fall in love and that the feelings were an illusion. She was confirmed trying to talk herself out of it. I've also heard about her rejecting Zack in the lifestream in the original timeline in favor of Cloud, but I don't remember what additional story that's from and I don't think it matters much to her style of romance. Her style is definitely the subtle "building a connection" and "day-to-day actions speak louder than words" type vs the "sudden change in feelings" and "physical displays of attraction" type Tifa has that you've pointed out. To the original Japanese audience, this is obvious, and that style of romance is preferred, which is why Aerith is more favored than Tifa in Japan (per the NHK's polling in 2020 and as implied by most Japanese promotional media of the game and spin-offs). But in the West, Tifa's directness is easy to pick up on, so she's preferred. Overall, a difference in audience culture will show a difference in which type of romance is seen as more genuine and romantic.
Also in Japanese version, when Aerith confess her feelings towards Cloud in the church, she didn't said "i really like you". She actually said "i love you". And the way she says "i love you" to Cloud is just like Yuna says "i love you" to Tidus at the end of FFX. So it's clear that Aerith really loves Cloud and it's not confusing
I think it's a little more complicated than that. I had 100% with aerith and ch8 date with her and still got why not. I want to see the other scene for completion and I can't figure it out! 😩
@mlwjrpg yes I'm sure. I've replayed the chapter over and over trying to see it. A few people on discord were trying to figure it out with me. Trying ch12 next, but since you have to play through and save I'm not sure I can put myself through the play when I've seen it 8 times already 😂
I’ve read Margot’s tweets about this on Twitter/X, so thank you for finally uploading the video focusing on this, which helps fans who want to get Aerith’s route because no one has yet approached this topic on YT so far, even Ultimania Rebirth doesn’t mention about it. I assume it will be explained in Rebirth Material Ultimania if SE releases that in the future. Interesting that it’s not optional scenes based on the affinity system alone, but it’s established from the narrative regarding Cloud about Aerith. So, instead of “HA/LA”, how should we call it now? Confident Cloud (CC) and Reserved Cloud (RC) scene? Any idea? (Also, this one may not be relevant to the narrative but I find it funny: At 7:58 when Cloud finally remembers who Zack was, in EN he says, “Zack Fair. From Gongaga, head over heels for Aerith…”; while in JP he says, “Zack Fair. A SOLDIER who liked Aerith, coming from Gongaga,…”In the JP version, it’s more clear that he always concerns about Aerith more than Zack himself lol.)
Appreciate your input here and glad you enjoyed this being unpacked and cleared up. Wow I love the details on the scene in EN vs JP when Cloud remembers Zack and what he says. Thank you!
@@ariyuril I like that! So it’s like N/DA8 and N/DA12? As for the church scene, the user TickleDem on Twitter/X also suggests to keep HA/LA abbreviations but they stand for Having/Lacking Assurance, or High/Lack Assurance. Love the idea btw!
I was so confused when my husband got high affinity while dating Tifa. Then he told me he did have Aerith in the first date Chapter 8. Now it clarifies a lot of things.
They did say the whole date mechanic ran this risk. I thought it was overdone and it started right away the first morning in Kalm. I’m starting to wonder if the dating manipulation wasn’t intentional meta messaging/reflection of the fanbase. Similar to how many interpreted the whispers as embodiments of the “purists” in Remake.
WOW! The devs are smart and sneaky with this one. I got the "Yeah, next time" line the first playthrough and I got Red on the gondola date. This is cool to learn now. Keep it up!!
That's a pretty neat discovery! Tbh I don't get why anyone's grasping on to these subtle differences to try and debunk CA. It doesn't change that Aerith tells Cloud she really likes him, or any of their non-optional dates so far or that he in canonically jealous of Zack. He's still affirming an approval of spending more time with her no matter which version you get.
Oh yeah 100% agree there, it's very nice to now have more of an understanding of why Cloud says those lines, it was always about his understanding of Aerith's feelings towards him.
Nice content like always!!🩷 Honestly, of all your videos, this is the “only curiosity” that I knew bc I checked it myself. Two of my friends prefer Tifa and they didn't see the church scene with “HA” so I explained that it was bc they didn't have any date with Aerith😅. In spanish subs puts “that’s what friends do, right?”. It’s so bad, I can’t do anything to convince them that Aerith it’s the real love of Cloud, they’re so blind🥲 But for me it’ll always be Clerith💙💚
That's awesome that you figured this out as well! Yeah the spanish sub is interesting...I'll say that haha. Regardless we know what happens after these lines and that confirms everything to us paying attention. No matter which scene played, it's still clear to those that aren't willfully ignorant.
That’s amazing analysis, I watched when Rebirth came out one of UA-camrs I found bc I don’t own PS5, and he got Aerith date in chapter 8 and Tifa’s date in chapter 12 (I was a little disappointed, bc it was another from many who chose Tifa at the end, and I looked for someone who chose Aerith) so never ended the game with him, but now I got back to his video just to see if he got yes, next time and he did! Even tho he chose Tifa for GS date in chapter 12. Well, now we have good argument against disrespectful Clotis in Clerith videos when they attack this date as friendzoning ^^
I already assumed that this was the case based on the streams I watched. Thanks for going out of your way to "prove" it! I always saw the church scene in "LA" as Cloud being unsure about his feelings rather than friendzoning her. There's no reason for him to stiffly stare straight ahead like he was in the most uncomfortable position ever if he was just casually hanging out with his bestie lol. It's strange how some people always take a characters words at face value without considering that... you know, a character might not always say what they think/feel/mean outright. And seriously, how many of us in this situation would actually say: "Yes, lets go in a another date, I love you" to our crushes instead of playing it save with, "Yeah, we are friends, no?" (Which he does in Japanese and German). (Also, since you made that video comparing LA and HA and how LA didnt quite fit considering the missing sound of him turning and all... German dub actually has a big change in voice tone only for the "yeah, we are friends" line in LA. Cloud's voice is really soft before, then really soft right after, and just the LA line seems really... off tone wise. Just wanted to add that since I'm always reminded of your video when watching that one.)
This is just you/OP/this community reading into things lmao. Where is it mentioned he’s unsure about where they stand? Give conclusive proof. Not the conjecture of a scene only triggering after a date and in that date there being hints said girl is interested. Thats reading into things following your own wishes and biases. Which is not surprising because apperantly the HA/LA didnt sit right with this community even more than that kiss lol.
@mikev8746 It's funny that you are the guy who already replied to me yesterday on another comment here and apparently didn't even know that Tifa sees both Aerith and Cloud highfive and the former taking the latter's hand for reassurance. I don't think someone being unsure is something that usually gets "explicitly mentioned" somewhere. Feelings are usually expressed. Imo, Cloud expressed that during several points in the story. But since you are here arguing against Clerith in a Clerith video, clearly you interpreted those emotions differently. No need to come here and start an argument about it though. I personally have nothing against this HA/LA scene. It doesn't bother my like you somehow claim it does. I just think the mechanic behind this is interesting and fits with my personal reading of the story. Do you have a problem with that? I also have no issue with the Tifa/Cloud kiss and you certainly won't see me on CloTi videos crying about them misreading the game. :) I'm very happy with the 5 Clerith dates I got, all the handholding, the smiles and chuckles Cloud directed at Aerith, the times he protected her, the scene where he pointed a camera at her to take pictures of her and the fact that the memory of her snapped him out of Seph's control. :)
The person insistently presents his opinion in almost every comment, I am almost delighted with how much he wants to attract more people to his faction👏👏👏
@@fiprosha > didn't even know that Tifa sees both Aerith and Cloud highfive and the former taking the latter's hand for reassurance. Then point me to the scene I must have missed it. > I don't think someone being unsure is something that usually gets "explicitly mentioned" True but in a story in movie or game there's usually some communication with the audience to make things clear. Just guessing characters thoughts doesn't work like it would work for you and me trying to guess what real life people are thinking about us. They aren't real characters and the story is designed. > But since you are here arguing against Clerith in a Clerith video, clearly you interpreted those emotions differently That's the thing though, I interpreted in no way. I just followed the story and the scene and took it face value and now I see a video that's trying to guess this whole subtext about the scene and I disagree. > I personally have nothing against this HA/LA scene. It doesn't bother my like you somehow claim it does. Fair enough I'll take your word. OP definitely seems bothered about it though else he wouldn't make two videos about it. One trying to use developer effort as a reasoning why the LA scene is not the 'canon' one. Maybe I judged you to harshly just because you replied to his video and I put you in the same basket. It can happen. I retract my accusation there. > I just think the mechanic behind this is interesting and fits with my personal reading of the story. Do you have a problem with that? Not at all, you said it's your personal reading of the story. That's all up to you. People read into the story Zack and Cloud have a thing for eachother too lol. Whatever you enjoy. The point of the video and OP is that he just worded it all like it was fact and his video is publicly uploaded on UA-cam. So naturally people that enjoy FF7 will watch it and disagree. People will also disagree if you say the earth is flat or the sky is green. But if you say thats just how you view it or like to interpret it no one will bat an eye. Though they might find it quirky or weird. But I hope it makes it clear my issue is not the interpretation. It's stating things as a fact but then not being responsive to criticism. This pertains more to OP than you in the end. Hope that's clear now. > I also have no issue with the Tifa/Cloud kiss and you certainly won't see me on CloTi videos crying about them misreading the game. I have also watched their videos and while they do generally follow the story quite canonically (sorry I think the story just lends itself to them to do so) they also interpret shit here and there I find stupid and I disagree with. > I'm very happy with the 5 Clerith dates I got, all the handholding, the smiles and chuckles Cloud directed at Aerith, the times he protected her, the scene where he pointed a camera at her to take pictures of her and the fact that the memory of her snapped him out of Seph's control. :) I mean its funny you all really cherish them as dates and didn't get the humor there but okay.. enjoy what you wish there's nothing wrong with that in the end. But yeah it's good to know you seemingly don't mind the Tifa stuff happening alongside that and thereafter in the next game probably. In the end he has a connection with both in different ways.
@@mikev8746 The first scene is when they first go to GS. Cloud has one of his "moments" and Aerith takes his hand to comfort him. The second scene is also at GS, but in chapter 12 after they win the tournament against Corneo. > True but in a story in movie or game there's usually some communication with the audience to make things clear. The story was very clear to me overall. I do think it's fun though to find more meaning in smaller scenes too that fit my narrative, like this one. > That's the thing though, I interpreted in no way. I just followed the story and the scene and took it face value and now I see a video that's trying to guess this whole subtext about the scene and I disagree. This is honestly hilarious. I was trying to not start a fight here by giving you your interpretation and asking you to respect mine. Yet you go ahead and double down in your reply to make sure I know that CloTi is the canon route while you compare Clerith to Zack/Cloud. I really don't want to fight here with you. You certainly won't change my opinion that Clerith is the intended main route and I'm pretty sure I won't change your Cloti mindset. But I will say: You certainly interpreted the game as well. We all interpret, even in our daily lives. > But I hope it makes it clear my issue is not the interpretation. It's stating things as a fact but then not being responsive to criticism. Funny, when you are basically stating here that your reading of the story is fact and not an interpretation.
That feel when the ship is so good and has so much content and evidence favoring it that the insecure fans of the other ship (or as they put it, people who understand and like the "true story" of FF7) have to come out in droves to attack a bunch of people who are just out here vibing, enjoying our ship.
@@mlwjrpgI'm not even a Cloti but that kiss stings. Like Cloud's face when he hugged Tifa before the kiss can't be painted. They're even so awkward when they got off the gondola, it's as if they're pretending nothing happened.
It might like remake. It changes the Resoltion scene only after you finish either Chapter 3 or 8 and takes into consideration the Chapter 10 tie breaker.
Thanks for making this connection and showing it. It was clear to anyone paying attention - and honestly makes sense given whether you (and Cloud) know how she feels about him and Zack coming in. Even in the "LA" scene, it's Cloud who puts a follow-up date out there first: "You'll have to give me a harder one next time". "Oh, next time"?
I spent so much time on reddit reading translations of those dialogues (because it's very different in the original JP) just to discover what she really meant about Cloud. English localization kinda messed up this scene if you want to be literal to understand.
A lot of this makes sense, though there is something missing for me. Let’s say you get Aerith in chapter 8 where Cloud gets an idea that Aerith considers the outing a date. It’s after this that she gives a confusing answer about Zack in chapter 9 and becomes aware that Aerith is unsure of her feelings + chapter 11 where he remembers Zack calling Aerith his gf. In this scenario why does the “HA” version play in chapter 14? In this context, I am confused as to why Cloud is more sure of his feelings despite not hearing Aerith make a clear distinction between them (which only happens on the chapter 12 date)?
Their interactions and conversations during the ch8 date are quite strong. Also, it's very possible in ch8 to help Cloud see Aerith’s interest in chapter 14 is the conversation about Jessie in the event square and how he is clueless about girl’s romantic cues, she even does the same mannerism with her arms behind her back as she does in the church scene in ch14. This would segway into ch9 in gongaga, supporting Cloud's jealousy of Zack being brought following the ch8 date. The chapter 11 moment, when Cloud remembers Zack, does throw a bit of a curveball in the flow if ch12 doesn't involve the Aerith date. But based on his awareness from ch8 + ch14 date which then acts as a reconfirmation/reassurance of what her feelings/intentions can suffice for Cloud to feel confident when they reach the church. I don't think it's the "best" flow of events, but it does keep Cloud in character.
Its because taking an optional scene as interpretation for a characters main story arc is moronic. Also the entire assumption is wishful thinking. The HA triggering because you go on a date with her is just the devs figuring out that the player/Cloud that would have been on a date with her/spent more personal time with her probably would have a more warm respondse during the church scene. It doesnt at all confirm any internal monologue on Clouds part lmao. Let alone in main line story content. And besides saying “yeah next time” while smiling isnt the big love confession you want it to be either way. No, the HA scene happens for you if you as a player decide to spend time with Aerith on a date. If you dont it doesnt happen. And there is no internal dialogue taking place on Clouds part in this instance as this is never confirmed in the game. Whatever questions you have regarding Zack/Aerith/Cloud you’re going to have to figure out using your peoples skills.
@@Msis03 I'm not a shipper on either side lmao. But do enlighten me. What exactly do they do that you guys are doing on here? You sound very certain of yourself.
This makes so much sense! Cuz in reality most people who post this game wouldve done all the sidequests including aerith’s. And I’m sure even if they were Tifa lovers they wouldve still responded to Aerith positively in most of the conversation promts. So everyone wouldve had super high Aerith affinity anyway, the only difference is they had cloud go on other dates beside’s Aerith. Yet there are sooo many people who post the this scene with the “LA” scene on youtube, which just doesn’t make sense if it was based on affinity.
if you think about it this actually makes a lot of sense the only things i can think of that change depending on affinity are the dates and those are all initiated by the one you go on the date with so for this scene where the change is something that Cloud says, it wouldnt make sense for it to be based on how much Aerith likes Cloud bc he can't be sure of how she feels unless he gets concrete evidence (since sadly i dont think Cloud can see the pause menu LOL)
I love your videos and how thorough and observant you are on subtle nuances. I wanted your opinion on something… on my first play through, I got Aerith for both dates. After the chapter 12 date, you fight Corneo in the fight ring. I remember my feelings being a little hurt because it felt that the cutscenes within the battles had a very subtle focus on Cloud and Tifa’s interactions, like Cloud checking to see if she’s tired, and their lingering high five at the end (reminiscent of Aerith and Clouds moment during the coliseum fight in Remake). It just felt notable to me, because I had JUST had the date with Aerith, and those little follow-up moments made me feel like I was meant to go on the Tifa date. 😅 That, along with the mandatory story beats during Gongaga (Tifa/Cloud almost kiss moment), Nibelhiem (trauma bonding moments) and Cloud’s “shut-up” after Reno tells Tifa and Rude to “get a room” in the Temple of the Ancients chapter had me feeling like the “intended” path might be Tifa. I know ultimately it doesn’t matter, and it’s totally up to the player, but I’m curious to know if those little moments stood out to anyone else, and what your take on it might be. I’d love to see a video one day analyzing the Cloud/Tifa scene in Gongaga, and what Cloud might have been thinking within it! (From the perspective of believing the developers intended Cloud’s feelings to mainly be towards Aerith).
The highfive stood out to me to but not in a way that it felt like I was supposed to go on the date with Tifa. To me, there just seemed to be a big shift around Tifa in general after Gongaga where she suddenly became a lot mor "straightforward" in regards to Cloud and was really going for it in a way. Thing is... Tifa saw Aerith and Cloud highfive, so she initiates a highfive. She also saw Aerith take Cloud's hand earlier when he had one of his "moments" and does it later at the temple. But it doesn't work. To me, post Gongaga was Tifa trying. I didn't think there was anything special from Cloud towards her. On the contrary. 🤷🏻♀️ And at the end, you have the whole date with Aerith, so...
Rebirth definitely gave Cloud and Tifa more potentially romantic moments (compared to Remake at least, which IMO had basically nothing), but I'd say it still completely pales in comparison to what Aerith gets. The almost kiss in Gongaga is basically the ONLY explicitly romantic moment that isn't optional, and it's poorly timed and awkward at best. Cloud literally just tried to kill her because he bought into Sephiroth and Jenova's manipulation, but we're just going to completely brush that off so she can make a move? As he is FINALLY opening up a little and being vulnerable with her after previously being very standoffish? Like their conversation is fine, but going for a kiss right then just feels BAD to me. The attention on Tifa in the GS battle tournament was probably the devs trying to "balance" things by giving her similar moments that Aerith got in the previous game. Yeah, Tifa got to have the lingering high five too now. But never forget that she only got that BECAUSE Aerith and Cloud have already done that, because Aerith's influence made Cloud grow. Tifa WANTED a high five in Remake and Cloud snubbed her. Aerith's persistence is what broke through to him, and that matters more to me. Also while Remake had the commentators and crowd CONSTANTLY assuming Cloud and Aerith were a couple and making tons of insinuations to romance (lovebirds, couple, the tournament was their "first date", etc), those SAME commentators didn't say anything like that about Tifa and Cloud. So to me this whole tournament was the Corneo Cup again, but with the whole party this time and no emphasis on romance. In Nibelheim, I was way more interested/compelled by the fact that the devs had the audacity to give Aerith a moment on the water tower - a sacred place for Cloti fans. Also worth noting that Aerith's CH12 date flows the most naturally right before AND after. It's Aerith in the Battle Square who progresses the plot, and she says then and there that she WANTS to fight for the Keystone. Then AFTER the date, she again implies she'll be fighting by calling back to their last tournament together (which as I noted above had literally everyone involved assuming they were a couple) - "Wall Market Warriors, you and me!" Aside from her, ONLY Barrett implies he'll be fighting after the date. No one else says anything about the upcoming fight. Yet when the fight rolls around, it's revealed that your date the previous night is locked into your party. So Aerith gets lines that imply she's fighting both before AND after the date, which no one else does, and of course if you actually date her then she's locked in to the fight. Interesting. Finally there's the fact that the game ends with a heavy emphasis on Aerith. There's the non-optional dream date where she confesses at the end (REGARDLESS of the player's choices!!!), and I think this vid proves that Cloud IS interested in her no matter what, he just plays it down due to insecurity in the "LA" version because he doesn't KNOW how she feels yet and assumes Zack is still in the way. And regardless of how you interpret the ending in regards to Aerith's fate, it's still significant that the FINAL fight of the game is her and Cloud together against Sephiroth, and it ends with them back to back, interlocking fingers. That's not even getting into the optional stuff - the literal date sidequest (bonus - this one has Cloud admits he'd like a "simple date" which consists of... taking a walk together. Which they absolutely do in the dream date. This sidequest ALSO has them retroactively agree that the walk across rooftops could count as a date! They've gone on SO MANY DATES by the end of this game!), the sidequest where Cloud takes pictures of her, the FIRST sidequest of the game which calls back to picking flowers with her in the previous game... I definitely noticed a lot more focus on Tifa as a character and her relationship with Cloud in this game compared to Remake, but ultimately it still wasn't nearly as prevalent as Aerith's role and romance with him. The focus in the early game just showed how incompatible they were as they kept miscommunicating and hurting each other, and outside the optional GS date (and tbh even this COULD be interpreted as him going for her because he thinks Aerith is off the table) there was never really anything to indicate Cloud liked her romantically. He checked out her chest at Costa Del Sol, but lust and love are not the same. Tifa made it CLEAR she was into him when she went for the kiss in Gogaga yet he STILL can be taking pictures of Aerith next chapter or telling her about Nibelheim (in the spot he once tried to appeal to Tifa in, even). And they are STILL miscommunicating since Tifa admits she thought he LIKED being alone as a child, which he denies (obviously! No child wants to be isolated!) and yet she still laughs at him when Barret makes fun of him by pointing out how they don't need "another" loner when Vincent joins. I have no idea what the story or end of part 3 will be. But personally I think it's been very consistent that Aerith IS the primary/true love interest, while Tifa is there for fans to pursue if they want. You can play the game with her just being a friend and the romance is entirely on her side. You CAN'T say it's all on one side or the other with Aerith. Maybe the player can force their way, but narratively from what we've seen the only way CLOUD chooses Tifa is if Aerith is not an option, either through death or through her choosing Zack. And she's already picked him over Zack in this game, so now we just need to see if she makes it out of part 3 alive and well in the same timeline as Cloud. And we've already seen Advent Children is hardly a happily ever after for Cloti (He was living in Aerith's church and ignoring Tifa's calls; she was losing to, as she harshly put it, "a memory"!!!), so here's hoping for a truly happy ending to part 3 instead!
Dude…..mikev is coping so f*cking hard holy shit lmfao 🤣 The amount of insecurity and projecting would be enough to power the entire western seaboard…. That’s definitely the type of person that you CAN NOT have a rationale discussion with. Even for arguments sake let’s say that you’re wrong about the affinity system with this outcome…. It doesn’t matter lmfao 😂 Because EITHER WAY Cloud still willingly wants to go on another date with Aerith. So I’m not sure what this person thinks they’re winning at lmfao 🤣
@@mlwjrpg At least dude gives you engagement in spite of his delusions. He really does come off as an entitled western media illiterate "fanboy" the way he keeps brushing off the importance of Japanese romantic nuances, that while yes isn't blatantly spelled out like a kiss, is just as valid if not more romantic according to the native Japanese culture in a game created by Japanese devs.
Ah look I found the post. Go ahead man, have a rationale discussion with me. What part did you not agree with that I commented on? Just because I comment on 10 different comments on this video doesn't make any definitive statement regarding my motivations or thoughts. > Even for arguments sake let’s say that you’re wrong about the affinity system with this outcome Ah so its still a possibility OP is wrong then? Good to finally hear someone admit it. There we go. You see you can't entertain something being wrong possibly if it's factually conclusive. Like say mathematics or causality. But being able to for arguments sake contemplate this video being incorrect already proves this video should be presented as a theory and not delusional factual evidence. > Because EITHER WAY Cloud still willingly wants to go on another date with Aerith. Literally you are projecting here. How is this related? My entire point was just that this video is off base. Obviously Cloud wants to go on more of these 'dates' with Aerith as proven in Ch14? That's factual. He says it. But again what does that prove? Because again I feel like you people read a bunch of stuff into it lmao..
@@aerinsoleris I read your comment and quite frankly you have no right using the word 'delusions' typing a paragraph like that 😂 Are you also going to show me FF7 Aerith x Cloud Japanese chewing gum packaging to prove your point? 😂😂
@@mikev8746 The problem being, you can’t have a rational discussion with someone that’s being completely disingenuous with the obvious and intended narrative of the game…. And the reason I said let’s just say for arguments sake that the OP is wrong. Is because at that point your entire argument becomes moot then…. Because it wouldn’t matter if he was right or wrong because the entire purpose of you arguing for this to begin with is to diminish the romantic narrative between Cloud and Aerith.
Great video. I'm glad there are others who see things this way,. It feels like I'm going crazy and it makes me question my reading of the games when I see all the nonsense put about by Tifa obsessed shippers. I played the og back in the day and watched Advent Children, for me it was always Clerith, nothing else makes sense story wise. It's like knowing the world is round but a bunch of people keep screaming at you because they think it's flat and has always been flat and it couldn't possibly be any other shape.
I know this feeling to well, a specific portion of the fandom is running rampant and are very loud. But, that is what it is, as long as we know what we're seeing, well be fine.
I was nervous when the video started where this was going because I’ve been researching the last few months who is Clouds real true love and I have definitively come to the conclusion he is madly in love with Aerith. But I get it now what you’re saying and that’s an amazing discovery!
I'd say that you've been doing your research through the right avenues and have reached a conclusion that has so much supporting evidence. Yeah this video changes the way we should view these scenes and the beginning of the church scene. All along it was about Cloud having an idea of Aerith's feelings toward him, not the other way around.
I've been thinking about this, and it's along the line of: It's not just how much the characters like Cloud, it's also how much OPPORTUNITIES Cloud get from the players. The more opportunities the player give him, the more Cloud can sort out his feelings (or not). So even if Aerith have high affinity, you could get someone else as a date (either opportunity) if they hypothetically have more points than her. Therefore depriving Cloud of an OPPORTUNITY to learn Aerith's stance/feelings -> which would settle his jealousy. And on a boring mechanical note (which I mentioned on twitter), it's likely an event flag check ("did you get Event A or B? Y/N" -> "if Y, play Scenario A. if N, play scenario B"). As long the player activate the relevant event flag (either date), the game pick the correct cutscene variation for narrative flow. Beside, getting either of her dates are already an affinity check. Making the Church scene a possible event check is simple. Work smarter, not harder during work.
So if we combine what we learn in this video with the "LA/HA" video... judging by how sloppy and jarring the "low affinity" version is, the "high affinity" is the intended (canon) scene. And we NOW know that it's not about affinity at all, but rather it's about whether Cloud went on at least one optional date with Aerith. So in other words, at least one of those two optional dates IS the intended/canon, and Cloud and Aerith go on 3 dates BARE MINIMUM in Rebirth (beginning in Kalm, dream date, one optional date) plus a few more optional ones. In other words, Clerith is canon AF. Which of course we already knew but it's great getting even more evidence solidifying that!
Both ch8 and 12 dates are the intended ones and the Rebirth Ultimania confirms it. In the chapter description for Ch8 and 12 we only see pictures of Cloud's date with Aerith. The devs are literally not trying to hide it anymore.
affinity does matter on cloud response wich is the player voice, high afinity and he is upfront about wanting another date. low afinity he is like, sure,lets
Cloud agrees to go on more dates with either scene variation as it happens before his lines. But the difference being him being confident in Aerith's feelings towards him.
Nice vid, thanks for the clarification! Personally I'm into Zack+Aeirith pair, however it's kinda obvious that their relationship is done due to his 4 year absence (sad but true). Having these love moments with both Tifa and Aerith is a truly genius way to tease all fans, bravo devs! My personal opinion is that we won't have a clear answer for that in part 3 (purposely!). Cloud and Aerith relationship will be more like Link and Zelda's: bound by destiny, with deep feelings for each other, but with no chance to be together at last. Cloud and Tifa relationship will simply be "it's complicated". Poor Zack will be left with nothing 😢
Zack and Aerith never had a relationship, they liked each other, but the relationship did not go beyond friendship due to the immaturity of the characters at the time of their contact. Zack won't suffer at all, Rebirth has already added a girl with whom CC, if this wretched game is so fond of remembering, had a lot more chemistry than with Aerith.
@@ladyvergerin6791 from that perspective we can also say that neither Cloud and Aerith had a relationship both in OG and remake/rebirth. They did not have time to develop one (saving the world takes it all 😅). Btw, you mention another character in CC that fits Zack most - do you mean Cissney?
@@Larrie_285There were no canonical relationships in OG FFVII, there were canonical feelings, but not one of the alleged couples really became a couple, but still both heroines were drawn for Cloud, and Zack was just a background. Yes, I'm talking about Cissney, she's waiting for Zack in Gongaga despite knowing about his fate.
Why did he call her nakama in the Japanese version? Was it also a question or a statement? If it was an affirmation, did he say it because he was also afraid of rejection romantically?
He never straight up called her nakama, he asked her if they were that. "Well, we're comrades right?" He was unsure of Aerith's feelings, he was leaving room for her to give input on what he said there. A huge part of Cloud's character is the fear of rejection.
To be honest I didn’t use to like Aerith and found her a bit annoying. But after witnessing that evil ending I realized what a great and fun friend that I have lost in the game. And weirdly I fell in love with the character, something that I never thought would happen. And now she’s my favorite character in the series. I hope she makes a huge return in part 3
People calling all of Cloud's subtle/not-so-subtle reactions to Aerith reminds me of when I realized I wasn't being platonically jealous of my platonic best friend for life, I was just bisexual.
I got that scene and my affinity with aerith was way down. Also turn off the content for Zack’s part and see if you still get the dream date with aerith 😊 don’t know why we are still arguing about the romantic blah blah.
So what? Even though I'm Clerith, in some of my future playthroughs I will probably also turn off Zack's content to speed things up. Although I really like the dream date part
Which scene are you talking about? Sure you can skip it on multiple playthroughs, it's a great feature in that aspect, QoL. However remind me if you can skip it during a first playthrough.
I hope this time comment won’t disappear again😅 (I tried to comment for almost 10 times but….sigh) i’m not sure if it because i put the link on comment…..but i suggest you to search sth like aerith and cloud church scene (jp va with english caption) from Eira channel with this clip you can know more meaning of the scene (it’s like action louder than speak compare with english version) For me i think no matter what happened but dev already tell that player’s feeling is not the same as cloud. No matter what you think he has his own feelings which is he always loved her. When player didn’t date with her (gold saucer) for cloud it’s like not enough date for him , he always want more that’s why he asked why not? (I always want to have next time with you) and if player chose to date with her he still wants more time anyway. So i was like why someone think he friendzone her….actually it’s him who afraid that she won’t feel the same as him That’s why Aerith appeared in his dream in ff7 remake , told him not to fall in love with her , she always aware his feelings but cloud didn’t know it so he always want to knows if she accepted his feelings or not🥹
@@christine8459 you’re welcome:D The channel is name Eira But because there are too much channel that have this name so I suggest to go and search “ Aerith & Cloud Church scene (JP va with English caption) because this is the clip’s name I’m sorry that I can’t put on the link because every time i did it , my comment will get deleted automatically by youtube:(
Thank you ! I watched some of the content and I can tell you that the French localization is really close to the Japanese version. It seems that the English version is the less accurate ...
"If that's what you want, thank you." will always be the ultimate line of Aerith indicates her feelings to Cloud. We never doubt Aerith is in love with Cloud and that's why we all missed Cloud actually still uncertain about Aerith's feelings, until this video analysis.
@@mlwjrpgI like when people recognise this, there’s too much toxicity going on. I like both couplings and watch respective content from time to time, but every time there’ll be someone bullying and laughing at the “other side” in the comments that just makes me sad no matter where I go
Ok, haven't read all the comments, but most mention that the devs were geniuses about it....but, as a software developer, I would see this as a sort of a "bug turned into a feature" thing, let me explain my logic with this. In my opinion, the scene in question was meant to be determined by the affinity parameter with Aerith on a first run basis, that is, it didn't take into account hard mode or chapter selection replay, because as a player, you now have the ability to choose who you want to date on chapters 8 and 12 on chapter selection, but on a first run basis, you don't have that choice, the only choice you have is the choices to increase your affinity with a certain character. So the idea was to have the affinity be the first part of the logic, and the date scenes the second part...but the devs simply assume that the affinity would set the date character. By giving the player the option to choose who to date on chapters 8 and 12 on chapter select, this turned into a bug...that most probably the devs tried to solve...and probably at some point gave up because it might cause more issues than to solve it. Think about it, on a first run basis, if you give preference to Aerith, you will have the first and second date...hell, you can even by mistake miss the first but still then get the second, so in theory, your affinity will drive the dates on the first run. But as proved on this video, when using chapter select, if you don't have the date, you don't get the scene. So actually is a bug, but the devs used the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" card to get away with it without breaking the mechanic too much. You might think that the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" doesn't happen often, but it does happen a lot. Of course, it could be that the devs are geniuses....but my years of experience on software development have given me a very good radar to notice this things. I mean, even in OG FF7 they had the issue with Tifa's breasts, that was a bug, and in the end they left it as it is and that's why Tifa has that big chest 🤣
A vivid example of how people focus their attention only on what they want to see and are simply not able to see the essence. Typical Tifa fans for almost 30 years.
@@mlwjrpg the video focus on the english dubs. The japanese is the same in both cases, regardless of affinity or dates. I don’t understand why you people stretch it so much in this shipping wars
@@fgjan986 The video focuses on the narrative itself, which is the same whether it is the Japanese, English or other version. Am I to understand that you don't ship Cloud with anyone?
I love how this community will use game code and misq game conditions (like the name of a song or the contents of the credits) as a way to rationalize their impending romantic dread 😂 Holy hell dude, a bunch of assumptions made regarding a characters internal thoughts based on game code conditions, amazing 😂
Exactly.. apparently when shippers like this one can't get what he wants, they turn to "psuedo-scientific" reasoning on the minimalist of things to help them cope. It's not much better than telling yourself in the mirror that you're the greatest person in the world where over 7 billion exist lol
@@Nat_the_White_MageMostly sarcastic here. It mostly confuses me people are able to spin things in such a way. Semi frightens me, making me wonder what other assumptions people can make in life that are way off base. I would have allot more understanding and respect for this community if it stopped framing its headcanon as fact and more as fun speculation. That would actually make it entertaining.
@@wingchun1719Literally lmao, they always find a crazy way to back up the conclusion they initially hoped for. And especially in this shipping community in absence of cold hard facts. They go off road, looking for the weirdest details. I’ve read some real gems so far about how they coped with Rebirth. I would say Part 3 will atleast give them closure given that any sane and socially apt person would get the hint at that point. But I would bet they find a way to spin that as to align with their ship aswell. Its all so predictable and easy to observe too. OP was hella insecure about the HA/LA scene in Rebirth. No idea why tbh. But first he makes a video about how he can tell the devs made the HA scene first and thus the LA scene was an afterthought. Supposedly confirming the HA scene to be canon. Then a month passes and he cant trick himself no longer and finds a tweet of a person that discovered the scene is decided based on the date rather than the affinity bar (which decides the date lmao) and he makes this. Its honestly kind of sad. I bet this isnt the last video on this topic because the doubt will always linger. I really wish people just accepted the story. In reality these two characters still share a special bond. Just not the one they seem to want.
Again, full of "confidence", Clotis came running to assert themselves in the comments under the Clerith video. This is what constancy looks like in this world😅
lol useless video. The affinity system doesn’t matter. 🤷🏻♂️ Aerith is what moved the story forward because she’s a Cetra. A steward of the planet, the same one they are trying to save. It doesn’t change the fact that she died either. The affinity system is there so you can see how Cloud would react with other party members. 🤷🏻♂️ It’s a choice mechanic that has no real relevance to the story.
There are people who think that all of Clerith content is useless, but apparently some of them seem to care so much that they are willing to leave comments on videos about this topic
@@Nat_the_White_Mage useless in regards to the affinity system. Not because it’s Cloud/ Aerith related. It doesn’t change any major outcomes of the story. It’s just a choice mechanic. I also don’t care for hard bias videos when there’s an entire game, lore, story, characters etc. Just limits your subscribers and monetization if that’s what you’re going for. It’s not bad content, but it’s great by any means….
It's talking about how the affinity system DOESN'T matter to trigger a specific scene, and what this implies for Cloud's journey and how it drives his motivations for the story.
I can't wait for part3 it's going to be so good the lifestream scene where cloud confesses that he has always been in love with Tifa , under the highwind plus the Zerith reunion with a kiss maybe but I can't wait to see Zack and Aerith reunite again even though we already seen it in Advent children.
Finally a sane person in this comment section 😂 I honestly get headaches following the logic in these videos and in the comments. Just because the dream scene outcome is determined by the date completion rather than the affinity bar it somehow proofs how Cloud feels? 😂😂 How can an adult person that pays taxes and has a drivers license come to this from 0 to 100 conclusion? 😂 And yeah I would say thankfully this nonsense will be silenced in part 3. But I am honestly certain if people can rationalize themselves out of Remake/Rebirth clear hints. Then they can do so in part 3 aswell 😂😭
@@mlwjrpg Nope I know the story and you hate that because you can't get me to believe your lies so stick to your cult members who haven't even played the game it's not going to work on me. But I've seen you on a lot of cloti post trying to convince your self your not wrong on a daily but that was before I blocked you but your not special I block all CA's. But don't worry I'll lend you my shoulder to cry on when cloud confesses his love to Tifa in part 3.
@@Pure_White_Ash It must take a lot of self-assurance to convince others that they have never played the game. But since you know the story so well, remind me exactly when in the OG Cloud confessed his love for Tifa?
In the original game's disc 2 Highwind scene, if Cloud has low affinity with Tifa, he's uninterested and platonic with her, and it takes 50+ affection points to get her "high affinity" scene - in which Cloud will be warm and romantic. So it'd make sense that Rebirth's church date was the same.. but it isn't. The important thing here is that Cloud has dated Aerith before - most logically, that he understands her feelings for Zack have resolved and she's interested in him now. If he doesn't hear that, then he still makes the first line asking her for another date, but chickens out when she presses him about what "next time" means. Thus, it seems that unlike the Highwind scene (where his interest in Tifa is variable based on affinity), Cloud is always interested in Aerith, he's just afraid she might not actually feel the same or still be hung up on Zack. Great analysis, you're spot on.
so it was never about Cloud friendzoning Aerith, it was about Cloud being worried thar Aerith might friendzone HIM lmao
LOL funny how that works now
😂😂😂
You know this is your deepest hope but far from fact. The scene conditions are based to give romantic closure for those that chose to date her. Since it would not make sense in the context of someone who dated someone else.
You’re just desperate to find canonical proof instead of having to settle for mild romantic implications if you go the optional route.
@@mikev8746 no, i'm just trying to see what the devs and writers are cooking lmao, you're bitter af
@@mikev8746a guy who spams emojis is desperate to seem like his mental and emotional instability is an argument for his position. If anyone in a live debate reacted like you, you’d immediately be the loser. An appeal to incredulity isn’t a logical argument that builds on a foundational premise. It’s the opposite of a good argument. To sum it up, you’re mentally incapable of making an argument that is persuasive beyond “mUh SiMpY feEWInGZzzz”. What kind of sperg goes commenting 67 times on a channel, and somehow thinks they’re in a position to make a convincing argument?
@@mothingham What does that even mean hahahaha? the devs could have had numerous reasons for why the scene is triggered like this. you're delusional and calling me bitter just for playing Mr Reality and pulling you people out of the emotional muck wont change that.
> so it was never about Cloud friendzoning Aerith
And also this line of yours just betrays what you initially feared. And how relieved you seemingly were to think it wasn't the case.
Very cool. When we thought LA determined that scene, some people thought that in the “LA” route it was implying that he didn’t have feelings for Aerith and that his feelings were determined on whether you got HA or LA but it’s actually closer to the opposite. Cloud’s lines there are not based on his own feelings but rather, what he THINKS Aerith’s feelings are. If he doesn’t have either of the dates, he doesn’t get clarity that Aerith likes him now so he’s more reserved about his feelings in that line. This definitely changes the perspective of the scene and really you can’t use it as an indicator that Cloud’s feelings only apply in the HA route anymore like some people have.
WOW! I absolutely love this explanation! You really have put this all into a new perspective that makes perfect sense! This is so well explained, thank you for this!
@@mlwjrpg Wow! Thank you! I really appreciate it!!!
1) Its game code, not game writing. Basing lore assumptions on code is hilarious and you would disregard this sort of practice if the other shippers did this.
2) The only thing this discovery concludes is that the outcome of the dream date isnt based on how high your affinity bar is with Aerith post Ch 12 date. So theres no way to date other characters and then to max her affinity afterward before making your way to the TotA. Allowing you to get the nicer scene with Aerith anyway. It can only occur if she was your date.
This just means if Cloud spends more time with her he softens up and obviously he is more thoughtfull toward her during the dream date. Why would this at all implicate anything about his internal uncertainty?
Many people tried to say that Aerith still likes Zack and that the dream date wasn’t romantic, when the developers went out of their way to make different scenes because she did, in fact, say on the GS date that she likes Cloud now and their feelings were reciprocated. If it wasn’t a romance plot point then they wouldn’t have done this. It should be obvious but the way I try to see people twist it is insane
Love all of this! People will still try to twist this somehow of course, but they are doing it without anything to back them. At this point it's truly willful ignorance on their part. But for us, it's amazing how these scenes have context and narrative, we better understand them now. And of course the end result remains the same :)
Waiting for the CLotis to come and get offended and say the kiss was more canon and meaningful.
@@Uhoh_itsAshleyin all fairness, what gives you the impression that he chooses Aerith? He wasn't happy on his date with her in Corel del sol. Whatever Yr option in kalm, we have no choice by to go on the date. He didnt look happy when Aerith told the party they went on a date after that. In the dream date, Aerith tells him to play along and it's not like he can get out of it. In the saucer date, can't remember which one, I think chpt 8, outside his hotel room, Aerith had to pull him to get him going.
There's no hating here. It's just that you said he seems so naturally happy with her. But that's not really true.
@@Uhoh_itsAshley The big one is that there are two versions of the highwind scene in the OG and in one he basically rejects her romantic affection. I would always argue the lifestream scene references Cloud's feelings as a child, not presently. The fact that you can get the lower-affection highwind scene after this backs that up. Plus, with the lifestream scene, Tifa has affectively fulfilled her purpose in the story to help Cloud remember the truth. Meanwhile, Cloud continues to pursue Sephiroth so that Holy can save the planet as Aerith intended, and he points this out.
She certainly struggles moving on and during the dream date she still does. How else would you explain the “I like you, but liking and liking are two different things”
The date is meant as romantic though. Just not to the intense extent you wish it to be. This whole video only confirms that if you date Aerith then Cloud is more warmed up to her. If you dont date her hes not. Assigning his internal thoughts and feelings to him as a biased audience is laughable. Unless there are clear canonical confirmations this is the case you couldnt assume anything.
This whole video and comment sections speaks more louder on this communities desires and wishes than those of Cloud. A fully written character you should be able to understand without cherry picking game condition code.
So this basically eliminates the possibility of a question or argument that it matter how high her affliction is that Cloud is friend-zoning etc etc , it’s the soul indication of the confusion and uncertainty with Cloud of if Aerith has feelings for him (in his mind) so he stays reserved but only if you do the dates in 8 / 12 cause it gives more confirmation to Cloud that Aerith likes him especially if you do the skywheel date which he gets that confirmation from Aerith that she wants to be with him it’s another way of the devs throwing in there that Aerith is the supposed date cause this also goes in line with your breakdown of the No Date to Date Aerith of this scene in chapter 14.
It's so cool to know that all along this was about Cloud being sure or not being sure of Aerith's feelings toward him and not the other way around. Funny enough it was him not wanting to get "friendzoned." LOL
I didn’t realize that the affinity level didn’t determine that scene. Definitely interesting to think about
Completely changes how we should look at these scenes now!
Normally when a game lets you choose a romantic partner for your character, your choosing how your character feels.
The fact that FF7 is a little different, as it's implied that Cloud always has feelings for Aerith but 'can' potentially misunderstand Aerith's feelings, really shows how choices in games aren't always straight forward.
Everything leading up to the scene in chapter 14 makes more sense from a narrative stand point. Cloud would have no real way to know Aerith's feelings if the dates never happened.
@@mlwjrpg I’ve always seen an interesting symmetry between Cloud and Aerith in the fact that both of them have their feelings split between two people. I think Rebirth effectively shows Aerith mulling over her feelings for Zack, but ultimately coming to the conclusion that she wants to be with Cloud.
Like you say though, unless Cloud goes on a date prior to Chapter 14, Cloud never has a chance to learn Aerith’s feelings.
Does this mean that no matter who the player chooses, Cloud and Aerith will choose each other?
(Can’t wait for part 3)
@@davidpaul1733 i think that's the square Enix's game plan and how it works. They're giving us the freedom as player to choose who Cloud will end up with in the resolution scene and the GS date (and maybe the highwind too). However, no matter what the player choose, the narrative will lead into Cloud and Aerith choosing each other and ending up together (better hope this is right)
I don’t want to jump the gun because there is still a very significant chance that the conclusion to Cloud’s romantic journey will be the players choice and It might be too much to hope for the series to end Cloud and Aerith’s wedding…. But imagine a Cloud and Aerith wedding! Also imagine if they did a time jump and we could see there kids? We will see how it all shakes out.
Got to make 98% on my 1st Rebirth playthrough and tbh her route is the ONLY one that makes sense with the story and how it unfolds
Everything is consistent and characters stay true to themselves...it's intended for sure.
I love this because that’s the thing a lot of FF7 fans don’t get. Cloud is not a self-insert, he’s not choosing between the two girls based on your choice. His feelings for Aerith are always present, but it’s what he KNOWS at the time that determines his response.
It’s all a case of Dramatic Irony. If we date Tifa in Chapter 12, Cloud never has Aerith’s feelings confirmed, so he’s left with questions and uncertainties that triggers his LA response. That’s the only determined case. Genius on the devs part honestly.
It's been about Cloud having an idea of Aerith's feelings and not the other way around. Ch12 is the big one for sure, but it still makes sense if they don't date in ch12 but date in ch8. The interactions and conversations on that date make it clear enough for Cloud. Even the talk in front of the Jessie picture in the Event square shows Aerith possibly hinting to Cloud her feelings.
But isnt that the whole story though? His arc with Aerith is the tragic unfulfilled love interest that never truly materialized or became fully clear. And his arc with Tifa is the childhood hometown crush that bubbles to the surface after they reunite by fate and in the end they find their way in the midst of dire world ending odds.
Or are you denying all this and rewriting the entire games plot just to outdo the main romantic interrest? Whats so wrong about being the other option?
@@mikev8746what are you on about? Aerith and Cloud’s meeting is literally called a meeting of fate, both in the OG and Remake trilogy promotional material, ultimanias, bios, etc.
Tifa is an important character to Cloud’s past, not denying that, but it’s not them who are untwined by Fate’s design.
And you are correct on the tragedy of Cloud and Aerith, that’s what the OG compilation was based on, especially evident in Advent Children. That’s really the main reason for the Remake trilogy, the challenge of Fate’s design, the breaking of worlds, the splitting of timelines. What comes next? No clue, we’ll see in Part 3.
But nothing is being denied here, at least not by me. Your comment though is clearly obtuse on what role you think Tifa plays in this series. She’s a vital character, but not for the role you headcanoned her into.
Also I’m literally explaining the game’s plot and you’re saying I’m twisting it? Obviously you have no idea what the plot even is if that’s what you think.
@@Msis03 > Aerith and Cloud’s meeting is literally called a meeting of fate
Could say the same about him and Tifa after their reunion. Without her he would never have snapped out of it prior to the bombing mission. I'm not sure why you don't see these female characters share similar yet different themes in regard to him. It's the same theme with a different spin. And I struggle to see how a meeting being fated automatically makes some sort of romantic statement.
> Tifa is an important character to Cloud’s past, not denying that, but it’s not them who are untwined by Fate’s design.
What do you mean? Again you could argue she's way more important in the climax of the story of FF7, atleast to Cloud. And meanwhile Aerith is more important on the meta level of the story, namely helping with holy and summoning the lifestream against meteor. If you want to convince me you need to give me examples not statements. Fates design? What does that even mean?
> That’s really the main reason for the Remake trilogy, the challenge of Fate’s design, the breaking of worlds, the splitting of timelines. What comes next? No clue, we’ll see in Part 3.
Obviously that's what you want to read into it but I really doubt they will rewrite what happens in the OG finale here. Just that they will expand on it and give more insight and perspectives. So if you're expecting some sort of big revival or wedding switch then there's no real foundation for that other than your personal hope. Which again is understandable but not something reality has to align with. Simply said, I doubt Aerith will just be revived like she's a player character in an MMORPG. But there could be some sort of send off or spiritual alignement between the alive and dead characters. Again this element could be great for closure and wrapping up lose ends. Very bad for shipping hopes.
My opinion is that the Aerith shipping community has automatically set themselves up for failure because they refuse the story and rather wish for the fantasy. What you want is not inherently wrong or weird at all. In fact everyone partially wished things had gone differently in the story. That's how loss works. But it's this theme and conclusion that automatically makes it hard to argue there's any future for these characters without getting into semantics and in the case of Retrilogy - hoping for multiverse time traveling merging of worlds magic. That's just very unlikely.
The other shipping community has the benefit of just having to cheer on two characters whom both are alive and have some serious history and pent up emotions for eachother as verified throughout the compilation, factually and quotable. This is absent regarding this ship. But despite that its very clear that there always was something there. And they share something special. So again what lead you here is very logical. It's just that the story went differently.
> But nothing is being denied here, at least not by me.
Thats very respectable at the very least. Though I'm unclear what part you are exactly not dispiting. I'll just assume you somewhat to understand the story but just have your wishes. Which is fair.
> Your comment though is clearly obtuse on what role you think Tifa plays in this series. She’s a vital character, but not for the role you headcanoned her into.
And whats that role? I'm just a guy that played the games so I'm just going off what I heard and read. If there's some overarching metaphysical messaging here then maybe I missed that. But the role I interpreted for her is just that which was written in the story.
> Also I’m literally explaining the game’s plot and you’re saying I’m twisting it?
My point is that if you understand the games plot you would recognize the games events. You did elude that you accepted the events of OG atleast and that you hope that Retrilogy concludes differently. I'm operating under the impression it will be very similar to OG as I've also done prior to Rebirth's release. So maybe it's just a temporary different concept we have for this remake series's plot. Mine that it's fixed and yours that it can be undermined. But you can't fault me for just assuming the story will be the story as it's always been. You wishing for something new and different is the uncertain option here afterall. But all is possible.
@@mikev8746what an essay.
This makes so much more sense. So it's the narrative instead of how the characters feel about each other. Brilliant move from the devs tbh.
Exactly! I love this!
This video clears so much up. And I think it's smart how the devs turned an affinity dialogue from the OG of Cloud being jealous and expanded on it-- making Aerith unsure and having Cloud remember Zack-- created a new conflict that either gets resolved early with Aerith's dates and reaffirmed in chapter 14 with a confident Cloud, or resolved in chapter 14 with Aerith confessing to Cloud.
The writing was carefully crafted...ahhh I love it.
If Cloud's response is dependent on getting just 1 of the Aerith dates between Ch8/12, then it also fits in narratively with his conversations with Barret or Nanaki on the Gondola. Barret tells him to think about who it is he truly wants and confess before it's too late, and telling Aerith that he wants to have another date with her does just that. Nanaki's statements about Aerith clearly made him uncomfortable, but he promises to protect her regardless of what the future brings.
Yeah those two dates can be connected, I still can't get over how much Nanaki's date was relevant to the story!
Or.. it could be you’re reading into things based on personal preference 😂
@@mikev8746 Read your own comment out loud while looking in the mirror👍
@@mlwjrpg What the hell are you on about man? Are you saying I'm reading into the fact that you're reading into it? 😂 Because that's not how this works hahaha
Love all your videos, you're dispelling the ignorance in the FF VII fandom and I'm all for it
That's part of the plan! And to get more great clerith content out here!
Cloud probably thinks chapter 14 is “friend” behavior cuz they do a lot of romance coded activities outside of dating in chapters 8&12 despite 1. Not being “together” and 2. Her saying in gogonga that she still likes zack. so in his head (without explicit confirmation from 8or12) he’s probably thinking “oh she’s just like this, she’s flirty like Jessie, but it’s not real, so this must also be ‘friend stuff’” especially after she told in 14 of remake that him falling for her was not real, he doesn’t have the context of why she’s saying that, only we do, so he probably took it literally.
I love this angle you're taking, it's really about taking everything into consideration outside of these main trigger events as well.
Hate to break it to you but Cloud on your TV is not real.. 😂. He’s a written character. Writers do write their characters out in depth. But not to the crazy headspinning angles you and others seem to rationalize.
There’s a professional way of writing believable characters. And if your and OPs theory were to be correct the assumptions made here would be sprinkled out in the story like bread crumbs. There would for example be a scene where Cloud acts really confused about her behavior and tries to think back to what Zack told him about her. Trying to figure out if she’s flirty like that with everyone.
Because fictional characters arent real people the writers do this to make the story clear to the audience. Show, dont tell. And there’s absolutely no indication any of this you and OP proposed are elements that really occupy Clouds thoughts. Because its never shown. In any bit of dialogue. Its all in your heads and assumed based on how a real person might think.
So the conclusion is if cloud have dated aerith at the gold saucer (either in ch 8 or ch 12), he would've known that aerith had feelings towards him. That's why at the church, he said "Next time". But if he hadn't date aerith at the gold saucer, he wouldn't known whether aerith has feelings towards him or not + not sure if she had moved on from Zack or not. That's why he said "i mean, why not?" because he wasn't sure about Aerith's feeling towards him.
But whatever happens , cloud eventually knows that aerith loves him too. And now because cloud knows that aerith loves him too, i think we will get a scene where cloud will confess his feeling towards aerith in part 3
All along it was about Cloud knowing or not knowing about Aerith's feelings toward him vs the other way around. I can't wait for part 3 now, I'm confident in where this is going!
At what point does Aerith (or the story) point blank state she loves him? Or for her to do something only people in love do?
So far she has avoided kissing him. Brought up Zack allot. And when she could have confessed before her death. She gives a cryptic line about how she likes him but there’s liking and liking.
And no please dont headspin things and say “she loves him but knows shes about to die!”. Thats trying to think for the character. I want factual proof she is in love with him and doesnt just confusingly like him.
See with Tifa its really easy. She attempts to kiss him. Tells Yuffie she had a crush on him as of a certain point. And in relevant official side material (Traces) its flat out stated that the night of the promise was the moment she “fell in love”. So thats atleast 3 cold hard facts. So where is the Aerith equalivent?
Again I’m sure you and all the other shippers truly believe this to be the case. But for people that dont ship and want to just understand the story. As supposed ‘experts’ on their relationship. Where is this stated in the game or the book?
So far its clear to me that both characters are never really sure about eachother. That also seems to be the whole point of their arc. Why her death is impactful etc.
@@mikev8746 I don't have all day to explain it. But if you really want to know about it, there's a bunch of references you can search for that proves that Aerith loves Cloud and so does Cloud (FFVII Ultimania omega, on the way to a smile, the GS date in OG and rebirth, the dream date, Advent children etc)
And one more thing. Actually you don't have to do the research that much. Because even the player who doesn't ship (either cloti, clerith or even zerith) and just want to know the story, can see that Aerith loves Cloud
(Actually i want to give you a link of a post that can prove it, but i can't because my comment always get deleted when i try to post the link. Already attempt it like 3 Times and still got deleted)
@@mikev8746 I think your comment kind of encapsulates what's so frustrating about porting this Japanese game over to a Western audience. A Western audience sees romance in the direct, which is what you're searching for. But the Japanese audience sees much more romance in the implication: being able to read the atmosphere. Japanese culture has historically painted relationships that "just know" that the feeling is mutual as more romantic, emphasizing a spiritual connection that need not be put to words to be understood. Direct words, in fact, are seen as heavy and to cheapen the sentiment. Japanese people to this day still do not directly use the word for love (aishiteru) to people important to them unless on their deathbed; they will use a lighter word (suki) instead, which is more naturally translated to the English word "like".
Meanwhile actions are seen as showing true affection, like Cloud risking life and limb to save a girl he just met and then spending ages trying to get her back or defeat the man that ended her. These actions would be understood to a Japanese audience as proof of Cloud's love for Aerith because he's willing to go so far for her. And meanwhile Aerith's love would be read because she's willing to wait for him to find her or return to her, which is literally historically one of the most romantic and loving things a woman could do in Japanese culture. "I'll always be waiting for you!" plagues the Japanese romance scene at this point imo, but in this case, I think we actually have a shot of Cloud finding Aerith again, so the wait might finally be over. Loveless also really drives this home with not only Aerith's song about them finding each other again, but also Aerith's lines as Rosa pertaining to love and being able to intuitively know that the Hero was in trouble. Now, whether CLOUD picks up on this is a subject for debate and one of the main points addressed in this video.
I would argue the game still has literal signs of Aerith's affections though. She flirts with Cloud all the time. She confesses to him in chapter 14. Half of her side quests and large parts of her story route are dates. She even literally sings her heart out to him about wanting to meet at their place in every playthrough of the game, no matter whose date you're on. As far as other media go, the FF7R Ultimania is what directly states in the producer's notes on the script that she was talking to herself when she said not to fall in love and that the feelings were an illusion. She was confirmed trying to talk herself out of it. I've also heard about her rejecting Zack in the lifestream in the original timeline in favor of Cloud, but I don't remember what additional story that's from and I don't think it matters much to her style of romance. Her style is definitely the subtle "building a connection" and "day-to-day actions speak louder than words" type vs the "sudden change in feelings" and "physical displays of attraction" type Tifa has that you've pointed out. To the original Japanese audience, this is obvious, and that style of romance is preferred, which is why Aerith is more favored than Tifa in Japan (per the NHK's polling in 2020 and as implied by most Japanese promotional media of the game and spin-offs). But in the West, Tifa's directness is easy to pick up on, so she's preferred.
Overall, a difference in audience culture will show a difference in which type of romance is seen as more genuine and romantic.
Also in Japanese version, when Aerith confess her feelings towards Cloud in the church, she didn't said "i really like you". She actually said "i love you". And the way she says "i love you" to Cloud is just like Yuna says "i love you" to Tidus at the end of FFX. So it's clear that Aerith really loves Cloud and it's not confusing
Oh so this explain why a i saw a playthrough on which aerith was the date in ch 8 but then tifa in ch 12 and got the "yeah, next time"
I think it's a little more complicated than that. I had 100% with aerith and ch8 date with her and still got why not. I want to see the other scene for completion and I can't figure it out! 😩
Are you sure that's how it worked out for you?
@mlwjrpg yes I'm sure. I've replayed the chapter over and over trying to see it. A few people on discord were trying to figure it out with me. Trying ch12 next, but since you have to play through and save I'm not sure I can put myself through the play when I've seen it 8 times already 😂
I’ve read Margot’s tweets about this on Twitter/X, so thank you for finally uploading the video focusing on this, which helps fans who want to get Aerith’s route because no one has yet approached this topic on YT so far, even Ultimania Rebirth doesn’t mention about it. I assume it will be explained in Rebirth Material Ultimania if SE releases that in the future.
Interesting that it’s not optional scenes based on the affinity system alone, but it’s established from the narrative regarding Cloud about Aerith. So, instead of “HA/LA”, how should we call it now? Confident Cloud (CC) and Reserved Cloud (RC) scene? Any idea?
(Also, this one may not be relevant to the narrative but I find it funny: At 7:58 when Cloud finally remembers who Zack was, in EN he says, “Zack Fair. From Gongaga, head over heels for Aerith…”; while in JP he says, “Zack Fair. A SOLDIER who liked Aerith, coming from Gongaga,…”In the JP version, it’s more clear that he always concerns about Aerith more than Zack himself lol.)
Appreciate your input here and glad you enjoyed this being unpacked and cleared up. Wow I love the details on the scene in EN vs JP when Cloud remembers Zack and what he says. Thank you!
I personally like calling it NDA (No Date with Aerith) / DA (Date with Aerith)
@@ariyuril I like that! So it’s like N/DA8 and N/DA12?
As for the church scene, the user TickleDem on Twitter/X also suggests to keep HA/LA abbreviations but they stand for Having/Lacking Assurance, or High/Lack Assurance. Love the idea btw!
I was so confused when my husband got high affinity while dating Tifa. Then he told me he did have Aerith in the first date Chapter 8. Now it clarifies a lot of things.
That's a rare combination to get, and I heard of some people getting this and being very confused. It all makes sense now.
They did say the whole date mechanic ran this risk. I thought it was overdone and it started right away the first morning in Kalm. I’m starting to wonder if the dating manipulation wasn’t intentional meta messaging/reflection of the fanbase. Similar to how many interpreted the whispers as embodiments of the “purists” in Remake.
Always love the content. Working on some of my own. Keep up your great work!
Appreciate you very much! I'm interested in seeing what you have cooking!
@@mlwjrpg it will be a multi-part series. Probably drop by the end of July.
@@DrVarner Awesome!!! Look forward to it!
WOW!
The devs are smart and sneaky with this one. I got the "Yeah, next time" line the first playthrough and I got Red on the gondola date. This is cool to learn now.
Keep it up!!
That's a pretty neat discovery! Tbh I don't get why anyone's grasping on to these subtle differences to try and debunk CA. It doesn't change that Aerith tells Cloud she really likes him, or any of their non-optional dates so far or that he in canonically jealous of Zack. He's still affirming an approval of spending more time with her no matter which version you get.
Oh yeah 100% agree there, it's very nice to now have more of an understanding of why Cloud says those lines, it was always about his understanding of Aerith's feelings towards him.
Nice content like always!!🩷
Honestly, of all your videos, this is the “only curiosity” that I knew bc I checked it myself. Two of my friends prefer Tifa and they didn't see the church scene with “HA” so I explained that it was bc they didn't have any date with Aerith😅. In spanish subs puts “that’s what friends do, right?”. It’s so bad, I can’t do anything to convince them that Aerith it’s the real love of Cloud, they’re so blind🥲
But for me it’ll always be Clerith💙💚
That's awesome that you figured this out as well! Yeah the spanish sub is interesting...I'll say that haha. Regardless we know what happens after these lines and that confirms everything to us paying attention. No matter which scene played, it's still clear to those that aren't willfully ignorant.
Another awesome video! Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it! Appreciate you!
That’s amazing analysis, I watched when Rebirth came out one of UA-camrs I found bc I don’t own PS5, and he got Aerith date in chapter 8 and Tifa’s date in chapter 12 (I was a little disappointed, bc it was another from many who chose Tifa at the end, and I looked for someone who chose Aerith) so never ended the game with him, but now I got back to his video just to see if he got yes, next time and he did! Even tho he chose Tifa for GS date in chapter 12. Well, now we have good argument against disrespectful Clotis in Clerith videos when they attack this date as friendzoning ^^
I already assumed that this was the case based on the streams I watched. Thanks for going out of your way to "prove" it!
I always saw the church scene in "LA" as Cloud being unsure about his feelings rather than friendzoning her. There's no reason for him to stiffly stare straight ahead like he was in the most uncomfortable position ever if he was just casually hanging out with his bestie lol.
It's strange how some people always take a characters words at face value without considering that... you know, a character might not always say what they think/feel/mean outright.
And seriously, how many of us in this situation would actually say: "Yes, lets go in a another date, I love you" to our crushes instead of playing it save with, "Yeah, we are friends, no?" (Which he does in Japanese and German).
(Also, since you made that video comparing LA and HA and how LA didnt quite fit considering the missing sound of him turning and all... German dub actually has a big change in voice tone only for the "yeah, we are friends" line in LA. Cloud's voice is really soft before, then really soft right after, and just the LA line seems really... off tone wise. Just wanted to add that since I'm always reminded of your video when watching that one.)
This is just you/OP/this community reading into things lmao. Where is it mentioned he’s unsure about where they stand? Give conclusive proof. Not the conjecture of a scene only triggering after a date and in that date there being hints said girl is interested. Thats reading into things following your own wishes and biases. Which is not surprising because apperantly the HA/LA didnt sit right with this community even more than that kiss lol.
@mikev8746 It's funny that you are the guy who already replied to me yesterday on another comment here and apparently didn't even know that Tifa sees both Aerith and Cloud highfive and the former taking the latter's hand for reassurance.
I don't think someone being unsure is something that usually gets "explicitly mentioned" somewhere. Feelings are usually expressed. Imo, Cloud expressed that during several points in the story. But since you are here arguing against Clerith in a Clerith video, clearly you interpreted those emotions differently. No need to come here and start an argument about it though.
I personally have nothing against this HA/LA scene. It doesn't bother my like you somehow claim it does. I just think the mechanic behind this is interesting and fits with my personal reading of the story. Do you have a problem with that?
I also have no issue with the Tifa/Cloud kiss and you certainly won't see me on CloTi videos crying about them misreading the game. :) I'm very happy with the 5 Clerith dates I got, all the handholding, the smiles and chuckles Cloud directed at Aerith, the times he protected her, the scene where he pointed a camera at her to take pictures of her and the fact that the memory of her snapped him out of Seph's control. :)
The person insistently presents his opinion in almost every comment, I am almost delighted with how much he wants to attract more people to his faction👏👏👏
@@fiprosha > didn't even know that Tifa sees both Aerith and Cloud highfive and the former taking the latter's hand for reassurance.
Then point me to the scene I must have missed it.
> I don't think someone being unsure is something that usually gets "explicitly mentioned"
True but in a story in movie or game there's usually some communication with the audience to make things clear. Just guessing characters thoughts doesn't work like it would work for you and me trying to guess what real life people are thinking about us. They aren't real characters and the story is designed.
> But since you are here arguing against Clerith in a Clerith video, clearly you interpreted those emotions differently
That's the thing though, I interpreted in no way. I just followed the story and the scene and took it face value and now I see a video that's trying to guess this whole subtext about the scene and I disagree.
> I personally have nothing against this HA/LA scene. It doesn't bother my like you somehow claim it does.
Fair enough I'll take your word. OP definitely seems bothered about it though else he wouldn't make two videos about it. One trying to use developer effort as a reasoning why the LA scene is not the 'canon' one. Maybe I judged you to harshly just because you replied to his video and I put you in the same basket. It can happen. I retract my accusation there.
> I just think the mechanic behind this is interesting and fits with my personal reading of the story. Do you have a problem with that?
Not at all, you said it's your personal reading of the story. That's all up to you. People read into the story Zack and Cloud have a thing for eachother too lol. Whatever you enjoy. The point of the video and OP is that he just worded it all like it was fact and his video is publicly uploaded on UA-cam. So naturally people that enjoy FF7 will watch it and disagree. People will also disagree if you say the earth is flat or the sky is green. But if you say thats just how you view it or like to interpret it no one will bat an eye. Though they might find it quirky or weird. But I hope it makes it clear my issue is not the interpretation. It's stating things as a fact but then not being responsive to criticism. This pertains more to OP than you in the end. Hope that's clear now.
> I also have no issue with the Tifa/Cloud kiss and you certainly won't see me on CloTi videos crying about them misreading the game.
I have also watched their videos and while they do generally follow the story quite canonically (sorry I think the story just lends itself to them to do so) they also interpret shit here and there I find stupid and I disagree with.
> I'm very happy with the 5 Clerith dates I got, all the handholding, the smiles and chuckles Cloud directed at Aerith, the times he protected her, the scene where he pointed a camera at her to take pictures of her and the fact that the memory of her snapped him out of Seph's control. :)
I mean its funny you all really cherish them as dates and didn't get the humor there but okay.. enjoy what you wish there's nothing wrong with that in the end. But yeah it's good to know you seemingly don't mind the Tifa stuff happening alongside that and thereafter in the next game probably. In the end he has a connection with both in different ways.
@@mikev8746 The first scene is when they first go to GS. Cloud has one of his "moments" and Aerith takes his hand to comfort him. The second scene is also at GS, but in chapter 12 after they win the tournament against Corneo.
> True but in a story in movie or game there's usually some communication with the audience to make things clear.
The story was very clear to me overall. I do think it's fun though to find more meaning in smaller scenes too that fit my narrative, like this one.
> That's the thing though, I interpreted in no way. I just followed the story and the scene and took it face value and now I see a video that's trying to guess this whole subtext about the scene and I disagree.
This is honestly hilarious. I was trying to not start a fight here by giving you your interpretation and asking you to respect mine. Yet you go ahead and double down in your reply to make sure I know that CloTi is the canon route while you compare Clerith to Zack/Cloud.
I really don't want to fight here with you. You certainly won't change my opinion that Clerith is the intended main route and I'm pretty sure I won't change your Cloti mindset. But I will say: You certainly interpreted the game as well. We all interpret, even in our daily lives.
> But I hope it makes it clear my issue is not the interpretation. It's stating things as a fact but then not being responsive to criticism.
Funny, when you are basically stating here that your reading of the story is fact and not an interpretation.
Hello to the haters in the comments! See yall in part 3.
That feel when the ship is so good and has so much content and evidence favoring it that the insecure fans of the other ship (or as they put it, people who understand and like the "true story" of FF7) have to come out in droves to attack a bunch of people who are just out here vibing, enjoying our ship.
Ha ha the haters have nothing better to do, guess cloti content is super dry, can only watch a botched kiss so much lol
@@mlwjrpgI'm not even a Cloti but that kiss stings. Like Cloud's face when he hugged Tifa before the kiss can't be painted. They're even so awkward when they got off the gondola, it's as if they're pretending nothing happened.
It might like remake. It changes the Resoltion scene only after you finish either Chapter 3 or 8 and takes into consideration the Chapter 10 tie breaker.
Appreciate the dubstep date montages
Ha ha thanks!
Dude ngl , I love your voice. Also, THIS IS HUGE ❤❤😮
Ha ha appreciate that! Yes, we can now look at these scenes differently for sure! Very big!
Thanks for making this connection and showing it. It was clear to anyone paying attention - and honestly makes sense given whether you (and Cloud) know how she feels about him and Zack coming in. Even in the "LA" scene, it's Cloud who puts a follow-up date out there first: "You'll have to give me a harder one next time". "Oh, next time"?
Great analysis! I suspected this but didn't know for sure.
Yeah there was a lot of theories and mystery behind it, now we know for sure why.
What a neat discovery
It's huge to know why and how these scenes play out now.
I spent so much time on reddit reading translations of those dialogues (because it's very different in the original JP) just to discover what she really meant about Cloud.
English localization kinda messed up this scene if you want to be literal to understand.
Oh yeah classic SENA and Ben Sabin antics going on...
@NikoCat11 Could you share what it means about Cloud? I don’t go on Reddit bc of Clotis dominating there
A lot of this makes sense, though there is something missing for me. Let’s say you get Aerith in chapter 8 where Cloud gets an idea that Aerith considers the outing a date. It’s after this that she gives a confusing answer about Zack in chapter 9 and becomes aware that Aerith is unsure of her feelings + chapter 11 where he remembers Zack calling Aerith his gf. In this scenario why does the “HA” version play in chapter 14?
In this context, I am confused as to why Cloud is more sure of his feelings despite not hearing Aerith make a clear distinction between them (which only happens on the chapter 12 date)?
Their interactions and conversations during the ch8 date are quite strong. Also, it's very possible in ch8 to help Cloud see Aerith’s interest in chapter 14 is the conversation about Jessie in the event square and how he is clueless about girl’s romantic cues, she even does the same mannerism with her arms behind her back as she does in the church scene in ch14.
This would segway into ch9 in gongaga, supporting Cloud's jealousy of Zack being brought following the ch8 date.
The chapter 11 moment, when Cloud remembers Zack, does throw a bit of a curveball in the flow if ch12 doesn't involve the Aerith date. But based on his awareness from ch8 + ch14 date which then acts as a reconfirmation/reassurance of what her feelings/intentions can suffice for Cloud to feel confident when they reach the church. I don't think it's the "best" flow of events, but it does keep Cloud in character.
Its because taking an optional scene as interpretation for a characters main story arc is moronic. Also the entire assumption is wishful thinking. The HA triggering because you go on a date with her is just the devs figuring out that the player/Cloud that would have been on a date with her/spent more personal time with her probably would have a more warm respondse during the church scene.
It doesnt at all confirm any internal monologue on Clouds part lmao. Let alone in main line story content. And besides saying “yeah next time” while smiling isnt the big love confession you want it to be either way.
No, the HA scene happens for you if you as a player decide to spend time with Aerith on a date. If you dont it doesnt happen. And there is no internal dialogue taking place on Clouds part in this instance as this is never confirmed in the game.
Whatever questions you have regarding Zack/Aerith/Cloud you’re going to have to figure out using your peoples skills.
@@mikev8746imma let you go ahead and read your first sentence back to yourself, and then tell your fellow Cloti shippers that exact thing lmao 😂
@@Msis03 I'm not a shipper on either side lmao. But do enlighten me. What exactly do they do that you guys are doing on here? You sound very certain of yourself.
@@mikev8746 If you're trying to tell someone you're not a Cloti shipper, that's probably the biggest piece of crap you've ever posted
This makes so much sense! Cuz in reality most people who post this game wouldve done all the sidequests including aerith’s. And I’m sure even if they were Tifa lovers they wouldve still responded to Aerith positively in most of the conversation promts. So everyone wouldve had super high Aerith affinity anyway, the only difference is they had cloud go on other dates beside’s Aerith. Yet there are sooo many people who post the this scene with the “LA” scene on youtube, which just doesn’t make sense if it was based on affinity.
if you think about it this actually makes a lot of sense
the only things i can think of that change depending on affinity are the dates and those are all initiated by the one you go on the date with
so for this scene where the change is something that Cloud says, it wouldnt make sense for it to be based on how much Aerith likes Cloud bc he can't be sure of how she feels unless he gets concrete evidence (since sadly i dont think Cloud can see the pause menu LOL)
This is a great explanation when you think about it, very much makes sense.
I love your videos and how thorough and observant you are on subtle nuances. I wanted your opinion on something… on my first play through, I got Aerith for both dates. After the chapter 12 date, you fight Corneo in the fight ring. I remember my feelings being a little hurt because it felt that the cutscenes within the battles had a very subtle focus on Cloud and Tifa’s interactions, like Cloud checking to see if she’s tired, and their lingering high five at the end (reminiscent of Aerith and Clouds moment during the coliseum fight in Remake). It just felt notable to me, because I had JUST had the date with Aerith, and those little follow-up moments made me feel like I was meant to go on the Tifa date. 😅 That, along with the mandatory story beats during Gongaga (Tifa/Cloud almost kiss moment), Nibelhiem (trauma bonding moments) and Cloud’s “shut-up” after Reno tells Tifa and Rude to “get a room” in the Temple of the Ancients chapter had me feeling like the “intended” path might be Tifa. I know ultimately it doesn’t matter, and it’s totally up to the player, but I’m curious to know if those little moments stood out to anyone else, and what your take on it might be.
I’d love to see a video one day analyzing the Cloud/Tifa scene in Gongaga, and what Cloud might have been thinking within it! (From the perspective of believing the developers intended Cloud’s feelings to mainly be towards Aerith).
The highfive stood out to me to but not in a way that it felt like I was supposed to go on the date with Tifa.
To me, there just seemed to be a big shift around Tifa in general after Gongaga where she suddenly became a lot mor "straightforward" in regards to Cloud and was really going for it in a way.
Thing is... Tifa saw Aerith and Cloud highfive, so she initiates a highfive. She also saw Aerith take Cloud's hand earlier when he had one of his "moments" and does it later at the temple. But it doesn't work.
To me, post Gongaga was Tifa trying. I didn't think there was anything special from Cloud towards her. On the contrary. 🤷🏻♀️
And at the end, you have the whole date with Aerith, so...
The "get a room" line is a localization thing. Reno actually just complimented his partner in Japanese, saying "cool, Rude!".
@@celineosthaus8032 Oh, that’s really cool to know! Thanks!
@@fiprosha I definitely can see that! Thanks for the response!
Rebirth definitely gave Cloud and Tifa more potentially romantic moments (compared to Remake at least, which IMO had basically nothing), but I'd say it still completely pales in comparison to what Aerith gets. The almost kiss in Gongaga is basically the ONLY explicitly romantic moment that isn't optional, and it's poorly timed and awkward at best. Cloud literally just tried to kill her because he bought into Sephiroth and Jenova's manipulation, but we're just going to completely brush that off so she can make a move? As he is FINALLY opening up a little and being vulnerable with her after previously being very standoffish? Like their conversation is fine, but going for a kiss right then just feels BAD to me. The attention on Tifa in the GS battle tournament was probably the devs trying to "balance" things by giving her similar moments that Aerith got in the previous game. Yeah, Tifa got to have the lingering high five too now. But never forget that she only got that BECAUSE Aerith and Cloud have already done that, because Aerith's influence made Cloud grow. Tifa WANTED a high five in Remake and Cloud snubbed her. Aerith's persistence is what broke through to him, and that matters more to me. Also while Remake had the commentators and crowd CONSTANTLY assuming Cloud and Aerith were a couple and making tons of insinuations to romance (lovebirds, couple, the tournament was their "first date", etc), those SAME commentators didn't say anything like that about Tifa and Cloud. So to me this whole tournament was the Corneo Cup again, but with the whole party this time and no emphasis on romance. In Nibelheim, I was way more interested/compelled by the fact that the devs had the audacity to give Aerith a moment on the water tower - a sacred place for Cloti fans.
Also worth noting that Aerith's CH12 date flows the most naturally right before AND after. It's Aerith in the Battle Square who progresses the plot, and she says then and there that she WANTS to fight for the Keystone. Then AFTER the date, she again implies she'll be fighting by calling back to their last tournament together (which as I noted above had literally everyone involved assuming they were a couple) - "Wall Market Warriors, you and me!" Aside from her, ONLY Barrett implies he'll be fighting after the date. No one else says anything about the upcoming fight. Yet when the fight rolls around, it's revealed that your date the previous night is locked into your party. So Aerith gets lines that imply she's fighting both before AND after the date, which no one else does, and of course if you actually date her then she's locked in to the fight. Interesting.
Finally there's the fact that the game ends with a heavy emphasis on Aerith. There's the non-optional dream date where she confesses at the end (REGARDLESS of the player's choices!!!), and I think this vid proves that Cloud IS interested in her no matter what, he just plays it down due to insecurity in the "LA" version because he doesn't KNOW how she feels yet and assumes Zack is still in the way. And regardless of how you interpret the ending in regards to Aerith's fate, it's still significant that the FINAL fight of the game is her and Cloud together against Sephiroth, and it ends with them back to back, interlocking fingers. That's not even getting into the optional stuff - the literal date sidequest (bonus - this one has Cloud admits he'd like a "simple date" which consists of... taking a walk together. Which they absolutely do in the dream date. This sidequest ALSO has them retroactively agree that the walk across rooftops could count as a date! They've gone on SO MANY DATES by the end of this game!), the sidequest where Cloud takes pictures of her, the FIRST sidequest of the game which calls back to picking flowers with her in the previous game...
I definitely noticed a lot more focus on Tifa as a character and her relationship with Cloud in this game compared to Remake, but ultimately it still wasn't nearly as prevalent as Aerith's role and romance with him. The focus in the early game just showed how incompatible they were as they kept miscommunicating and hurting each other, and outside the optional GS date (and tbh even this COULD be interpreted as him going for her because he thinks Aerith is off the table) there was never really anything to indicate Cloud liked her romantically. He checked out her chest at Costa Del Sol, but lust and love are not the same. Tifa made it CLEAR she was into him when she went for the kiss in Gogaga yet he STILL can be taking pictures of Aerith next chapter or telling her about Nibelheim (in the spot he once tried to appeal to Tifa in, even). And they are STILL miscommunicating since Tifa admits she thought he LIKED being alone as a child, which he denies (obviously! No child wants to be isolated!) and yet she still laughs at him when Barret makes fun of him by pointing out how they don't need "another" loner when Vincent joins.
I have no idea what the story or end of part 3 will be. But personally I think it's been very consistent that Aerith IS the primary/true love interest, while Tifa is there for fans to pursue if they want. You can play the game with her just being a friend and the romance is entirely on her side. You CAN'T say it's all on one side or the other with Aerith. Maybe the player can force their way, but narratively from what we've seen the only way CLOUD chooses Tifa is if Aerith is not an option, either through death or through her choosing Zack. And she's already picked him over Zack in this game, so now we just need to see if she makes it out of part 3 alive and well in the same timeline as Cloud. And we've already seen Advent Children is hardly a happily ever after for Cloti (He was living in Aerith's church and ignoring Tifa's calls; she was losing to, as she harshly put it, "a memory"!!!), so here's hoping for a truly happy ending to part 3 instead!
Love your voice man
Appreciate it! I've been told to start a podcast or something for my voice haha
Dude…..mikev is coping so f*cking hard holy shit lmfao 🤣
The amount of insecurity and projecting would be enough to power the entire western seaboard….
That’s definitely the type of person that you CAN NOT have a rationale discussion with.
Even for arguments sake let’s say that you’re wrong about the affinity system with this outcome….
It doesn’t matter lmfao 😂
Because EITHER WAY Cloud still willingly wants to go on another date with Aerith.
So I’m not sure what this person thinks they’re winning at lmfao 🤣
Dude legit spent at least half his day commenting and injecting on multiple comments on this video lol
@@mlwjrpg At least dude gives you engagement in spite of his delusions. He really does come off as an entitled western media illiterate "fanboy" the way he keeps brushing off the importance of Japanese romantic nuances, that while yes isn't blatantly spelled out like a kiss, is just as valid if not more romantic according to the native Japanese culture in a game created by Japanese devs.
Ah look I found the post. Go ahead man, have a rationale discussion with me. What part did you not agree with that I commented on? Just because I comment on 10 different comments on this video doesn't make any definitive statement regarding my motivations or thoughts.
> Even for arguments sake let’s say that you’re wrong about the affinity system with this outcome
Ah so its still a possibility OP is wrong then? Good to finally hear someone admit it. There we go. You see you can't entertain something being wrong possibly if it's factually conclusive. Like say mathematics or causality. But being able to for arguments sake contemplate this video being incorrect already proves this video should be presented as a theory and not delusional factual evidence.
> Because EITHER WAY Cloud still willingly wants to go on another date with Aerith.
Literally you are projecting here. How is this related? My entire point was just that this video is off base. Obviously Cloud wants to go on more of these 'dates' with Aerith as proven in Ch14? That's factual. He says it. But again what does that prove? Because again I feel like you people read a bunch of stuff into it lmao..
@@aerinsoleris I read your comment and quite frankly you have no right using the word 'delusions' typing a paragraph like that 😂 Are you also going to show me FF7 Aerith x Cloud Japanese chewing gum packaging to prove your point? 😂😂
@@mikev8746 The problem being, you can’t have a rational discussion with someone that’s being completely disingenuous with the obvious and intended narrative of the game….
And the reason I said let’s just say for arguments sake that the OP is wrong. Is because at that point your entire argument becomes moot then….
Because it wouldn’t matter if he was right or wrong because the entire purpose of you arguing for this to begin with is to diminish the romantic narrative between Cloud and Aerith.
Now I am curious, what about the Costa Del Sol's sidequest date, does that also count?
Possibly? It's very hard to say though.
Excellent video. ❤ She even cares about Sephiroth.
Great video. I'm glad there are others who see things this way,. It feels like I'm going crazy and it makes me question my reading of the games when I see all the nonsense put about by Tifa obsessed shippers. I played the og back in the day and watched Advent Children, for me it was always Clerith, nothing else makes sense story wise. It's like knowing the world is round but a bunch of people keep screaming at you because they think it's flat and has always been flat and it couldn't possibly be any other shape.
I know this feeling to well, a specific portion of the fandom is running rampant and are very loud. But, that is what it is, as long as we know what we're seeing, well be fine.
I was nervous when the video started where this was going because I’ve been researching the last few months who is Clouds real true love and I have definitively come to the conclusion he is madly in love with Aerith. But I get it now what you’re saying and that’s an amazing discovery!
I'd say that you've been doing your research through the right avenues and have reached a conclusion that has so much supporting evidence. Yeah this video changes the way we should view these scenes and the beginning of the church scene.
All along it was about Cloud having an idea of Aerith's feelings toward him, not the other way around.
I've been thinking about this, and it's along the line of:
It's not just how much the characters like Cloud, it's also how much OPPORTUNITIES Cloud get from the players. The more opportunities the player give him, the more Cloud can sort out his feelings (or not).
So even if Aerith have high affinity, you could get someone else as a date (either opportunity) if they hypothetically have more points than her. Therefore depriving Cloud of an OPPORTUNITY to learn Aerith's stance/feelings -> which would settle his jealousy.
And on a boring mechanical note (which I mentioned on twitter), it's likely an event flag check ("did you get Event A or B? Y/N" -> "if Y, play Scenario A. if N, play scenario B"). As long the player activate the relevant event flag (either date), the game pick the correct cutscene variation for narrative flow. Beside, getting either of her dates are already an affinity check. Making the Church scene a possible event check is simple.
Work smarter, not harder during work.
So if we combine what we learn in this video with the "LA/HA" video... judging by how sloppy and jarring the "low affinity" version is, the "high affinity" is the intended (canon) scene. And we NOW know that it's not about affinity at all, but rather it's about whether Cloud went on at least one optional date with Aerith. So in other words, at least one of those two optional dates IS the intended/canon, and Cloud and Aerith go on 3 dates BARE MINIMUM in Rebirth (beginning in Kalm, dream date, one optional date) plus a few more optional ones. In other words, Clerith is canon AF. Which of course we already knew but it's great getting even more evidence solidifying that!
We know which path is intended and which connects in narrative fashion with the story :) Others can choose to be ignorant to this if they want ha
Both ch8 and 12 dates are the intended ones and the Rebirth Ultimania confirms it. In the chapter description for Ch8 and 12 we only see pictures of Cloud's date with Aerith. The devs are literally not trying to hide it anymore.
@@kwstas1290 The ones that are paying half attention to what they are seeing can clearly see what the devs are doing haha
affinity does matter on cloud response wich is the player voice, high afinity and he is upfront about wanting another date. low afinity he is like, sure,lets
Cloud agrees to go on more dates with either scene variation as it happens before his lines. But the difference being him being confident in Aerith's feelings towards him.
Nice vid, thanks for the clarification! Personally I'm into Zack+Aeirith pair, however it's kinda obvious that their relationship is done due to his 4 year absence (sad but true). Having these love moments with both Tifa and Aerith is a truly genius way to tease all fans, bravo devs! My personal opinion is that we won't have a clear answer for that in part 3 (purposely!). Cloud and Aerith relationship will be more like Link and Zelda's: bound by destiny, with deep feelings for each other, but with no chance to be together at last. Cloud and Tifa relationship will simply be "it's complicated". Poor Zack will be left with nothing 😢
Zack and Aerith never had a relationship, they liked each other, but the relationship did not go beyond friendship due to the immaturity of the characters at the time of their contact. Zack won't suffer at all, Rebirth has already added a girl with whom CC, if this wretched game is so fond of remembering, had a lot more chemistry than with Aerith.
@@ladyvergerin6791 from that perspective we can also say that neither Cloud and Aerith had a relationship both in OG and remake/rebirth. They did not have time to develop one (saving the world takes it all 😅). Btw, you mention another character in CC that fits Zack most - do you mean Cissney?
@@Larrie_285There were no canonical relationships in OG FFVII, there were canonical feelings, but not one of the alleged couples really became a couple, but still both heroines were drawn for Cloud, and Zack was just a background. Yes, I'm talking about Cissney, she's waiting for Zack in Gongaga despite knowing about his fate.
Love the vesperia music
What was the song that was played in the sped up scene?
Firework Blade
@@mlwjrpg Cloud and Aerith's synergy skill. Nice
Why did he call her nakama in the Japanese version? Was it also a question or a statement? If it was an affirmation, did he say it because he was also afraid of rejection romantically?
He never straight up called her nakama, he asked her if they were that. "Well, we're comrades right?"
He was unsure of Aerith's feelings, he was leaving room for her to give input on what he said there.
A huge part of Cloud's character is the fear of rejection.
i had tifa first date then barret so i tough making aerith the final was very fitting
Wait there are differences in that scene?!
Yup ha ha, glad you found out from the video.
To be honest I didn’t use to like Aerith and found her a bit annoying. But after witnessing that evil ending I realized what a great and fun friend that I have lost in the game. And weirdly I fell in love with the character, something that I never thought would happen. And now she’s my favorite character in the series. I hope she makes a huge return in part 3
She's an amazing character and don't worry she'll be a major player in part 3, I'm confident of that.
People calling all of Cloud's subtle/not-so-subtle reactions to Aerith reminds me of when I realized I wasn't being platonically jealous of my platonic best friend for life, I was just bisexual.
I got that scene and my affinity with aerith was way down. Also turn off the content for Zack’s part and see if you still get the dream date with aerith 😊 don’t know why we are still arguing about the romantic blah blah.
So what? Even though I'm Clerith, in some of my future playthroughs I will probably also turn off Zack's content to speed things up. Although I really like the dream date part
Which scene are you talking about? Sure you can skip it on multiple playthroughs, it's a great feature in that aspect, QoL. However remind me if you can skip it during a first playthrough.
W Vesperia Music
Vesperia's ost cooked hard.
I hope this time comment won’t disappear again😅 (I tried to comment for almost 10 times but….sigh) i’m not sure if it because i put the link on comment…..but i suggest you to search sth like aerith and cloud church scene (jp va with english caption) from Eira channel with this clip you can know more meaning of the scene (it’s like action louder than speak compare with english version)
For me i think no matter what happened but dev already tell that player’s feeling is not the same as cloud. No matter what you think he has his own feelings which is he always loved her.
When player didn’t date with her (gold saucer) for cloud it’s like not enough date for him , he always want more that’s why he asked why not? (I always want to have next time with you) and if player chose to date with her he still wants more time anyway. So i was like why someone think he friendzone her….actually it’s him who afraid that she won’t feel the same as him
That’s why Aerith appeared in his dream in ff7 remake , told him not to fall in love with her , she always aware his feelings but cloud didn’t know it so he always want to knows if she accepted his feelings or not🥹
Can you please tell me the complete name of the channel? I so badly wants to see the correct translation from the Jp version💗. Thank you so much^-^
@@christine8459 you’re welcome:D The channel is name Eira
But because there are too much channel that have this name so I suggest to go and search “ Aerith & Cloud Church scene (JP va with English caption) because this is the clip’s name
I’m sorry that I can’t put on the link because every time i did it , my comment will get deleted automatically by youtube:(
@@midnightroom4632 oh wow thank you so muchhhhh!!!!^-^ YT sucks these days, they're deleting comments for no reason.
Thank you ! I watched some of the content and I can tell you that the French localization is really close to the Japanese version. It seems that the English version is the less accurate ...
"If that's what you want, thank you." will always be the ultimate line of Aerith indicates her feelings to Cloud. We never doubt Aerith is in love with Cloud and that's why we all missed Cloud actually still uncertain about Aerith's feelings, until this video analysis.
I don’t think it’s really one or the other that he loves. Cloud loves both Tifa and aerith.
There is 100% a "love triangle" in place, there are feelings toward both of these women no doubt.
@@mlwjrpgI like when people recognise this, there’s too much toxicity going on. I like both couplings and watch respective content from time to time, but every time there’ll be someone bullying and laughing at the “other side” in the comments that just makes me sad no matter where I go
Ok, haven't read all the comments, but most mention that the devs were geniuses about it....but, as a software developer, I would see this as a sort of a "bug turned into a feature" thing, let me explain my logic with this.
In my opinion, the scene in question was meant to be determined by the affinity parameter with Aerith on a first run basis, that is, it didn't take into account hard mode or chapter selection replay, because as a player, you now have the ability to choose who you want to date on chapters 8 and 12 on chapter selection, but on a first run basis, you don't have that choice, the only choice you have is the choices to increase your affinity with a certain character. So the idea was to have the affinity be the first part of the logic, and the date scenes the second part...but the devs simply assume that the affinity would set the date character. By giving the player the option to choose who to date on chapters 8 and 12 on chapter select, this turned into a bug...that most probably the devs tried to solve...and probably at some point gave up because it might cause more issues than to solve it. Think about it, on a first run basis, if you give preference to Aerith, you will have the first and second date...hell, you can even by mistake miss the first but still then get the second, so in theory, your affinity will drive the dates on the first run. But as proved on this video, when using chapter select, if you don't have the date, you don't get the scene. So actually is a bug, but the devs used the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" card to get away with it without breaking the mechanic too much. You might think that the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" doesn't happen often, but it does happen a lot.
Of course, it could be that the devs are geniuses....but my years of experience on software development have given me a very good radar to notice this things. I mean, even in OG FF7 they had the issue with Tifa's breasts, that was a bug, and in the end they left it as it is and that's why Tifa has that big chest 🤣
*sigh* here we go again..
Yes, Cleriths exist and have their own content
@@Nat_the_White_Mage It was obvious already. But thanks for pointing it out anyways
Thanks for stopping by buddy
@@mlwjrpg Your welcome. Thanks for providing the video.
About as clear as mud
I'm glad you can see through mud then 🙂
In the original japanese it is very clear: Cloud friendzones Aerith no matter what affinity you have
A vivid example of how people focus their attention only on what they want to see and are simply not able to see the essence. Typical Tifa fans for almost 30 years.
Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video.
@@mlwjrpg the video focus on the english dubs. The japanese is the same in both cases, regardless of affinity or dates.
I don’t understand why you people stretch it so much in this shipping wars
@@ladyvergerin6791 I think there is a lot of projection in this comment.
@@fgjan986 The video focuses on the narrative itself, which is the same whether it is the Japanese, English or other version. Am I to understand that you don't ship Cloud with anyone?
I love how this community will use game code and misq game conditions (like the name of a song or the contents of the credits) as a way to rationalize their impending romantic dread 😂
Holy hell dude, a bunch of assumptions made regarding a characters internal thoughts based on game code conditions, amazing 😂
Exactly.. apparently when shippers like this one can't get what he wants, they turn to "psuedo-scientific" reasoning on the minimalist of things to help them cope. It's not much better than telling yourself in the mirror that you're the greatest person in the world where over 7 billion exist lol
Why do you love it?
@@Nat_the_White_MageMostly sarcastic here. It mostly confuses me people are able to spin things in such a way. Semi frightens me, making me wonder what other assumptions people can make in life that are way off base.
I would have allot more understanding and respect for this community if it stopped framing its headcanon as fact and more as fun speculation. That would actually make it entertaining.
@@wingchun1719Literally lmao, they always find a crazy way to back up the conclusion they initially hoped for. And especially in this shipping community in absence of cold hard facts. They go off road, looking for the weirdest details. I’ve read some real gems so far about how they coped with Rebirth.
I would say Part 3 will atleast give them closure given that any sane and socially apt person would get the hint at that point. But I would bet they find a way to spin that as to align with their ship aswell.
Its all so predictable and easy to observe too. OP was hella insecure about the HA/LA scene in Rebirth. No idea why tbh. But first he makes a video about how he can tell the devs made the HA scene first and thus the LA scene was an afterthought. Supposedly confirming the HA scene to be canon. Then a month passes and he cant trick himself no longer and finds a tweet of a person that discovered the scene is decided based on the date rather than the affinity bar (which decides the date lmao) and he makes this. Its honestly kind of sad. I bet this isnt the last video on this topic because the doubt will always linger.
I really wish people just accepted the story. In reality these two characters still share a special bond. Just not the one they seem to want.
Again, full of "confidence", Clotis came running to assert themselves in the comments under the Clerith video. This is what constancy looks like in this world😅
lol useless video. The affinity system doesn’t matter. 🤷🏻♂️ Aerith is what moved the story forward because she’s a Cetra. A steward of the planet, the same one they are trying to save. It doesn’t change the fact that she died either. The affinity system is there so you can see how Cloud would react with other party members. 🤷🏻♂️ It’s a choice mechanic that has no real relevance to the story.
There are people who think that all of Clerith content is useless, but apparently some of them seem to care so much that they are willing to leave comments on videos about this topic
@@Nat_the_White_Mage useless in regards to the affinity system. Not because it’s Cloud/ Aerith related. It doesn’t change any major outcomes of the story. It’s just a choice mechanic. I also don’t care for hard bias videos when there’s an entire game, lore, story, characters etc. Just limits your subscribers and monetization if that’s what you’re going for. It’s not bad content, but it’s great by any means….
@@jarrodhoyt2097 Ok, I get it, but if a video raises an interesting point, even if I don't agree with it, I don't find it useless
The affinity system isn't even the main point of this video though. This video actually unpacks details about the narrative.
It's talking about how the affinity system DOESN'T matter to trigger a specific scene, and what this implies for Cloud's journey and how it drives his motivations for the story.
I can't wait for part3 it's going to be so good the lifestream scene where cloud confesses that he has always been in love with Tifa , under the highwind plus the Zerith reunion with a kiss maybe but I can't wait to see Zack and Aerith reunite again even though we already seen it in Advent children.
It's interesting how many Clotis already know what will happen in the third part, when the devs probably don't know it yet
Finally a sane person in this comment section 😂 I honestly get headaches following the logic in these videos and in the comments. Just because the dream scene outcome is determined by the date completion rather than the affinity bar it somehow proofs how Cloud feels? 😂😂
How can an adult person that pays taxes and has a drivers license come to this from 0 to 100 conclusion? 😂
And yeah I would say thankfully this nonsense will be silenced in part 3. But I am honestly certain if people can rationalize themselves out of Remake/Rebirth clear hints. Then they can do so in part 3 aswell 😂😭
If you have to comment this here on this video, you're doing nothing but trying to convince yourself of this. Insecurities hurt...yikes
@@mlwjrpg Nope I know the story and you hate that because you can't get me to believe your lies so stick to your cult members who haven't even played the game it's not going to work on me.
But I've seen you on a lot of cloti post trying to convince your self your not wrong on a daily but that was before I blocked you but your not special I block all CA's.
But don't worry I'll lend you my shoulder to cry on when cloud confesses his love to Tifa in part 3.
@@Pure_White_Ash It must take a lot of self-assurance to convince others that they have never played the game. But since you know the story so well, remind me exactly when in the OG Cloud confessed his love for Tifa?
Tifa.
Devs.
What about her?