Castor and Pollux are a case of twins where one is a demigod and the other one is mortal, so is Hellen and clamenestra pulling from the examples red made. Also Heracles had a twin who I can't remember the name from the top of my head because he's so overshadowed by Heracles.
Herakles’ twin was Iphikles. Also, Castor and Pollux aren’t the only ones in that family tree: Helen and Clytemnestra are sometimes described as twins like the Dioscuri, if Helen’s godly parent is Zeus.
Hey! Italian here! territorially speaking, Sicily is indeed part of Italy. Culturally speaking, they're different, but so is Naples (Neapolis, in old greek), Apulia and so on, which are all very different culturally, not only from each other, but the rest of Italy (and Rome, in the past) as a whole!
Given that we're talking about Artemis and Apollo, I'm here to share my favorite anecdote about them; a version of their birth myth not realizing the implications of its own statements. In this one, Hera's restriction on their mother was that she could not give birth "anywhere on the mainland, on any island, or any place ever seen by the sun or moon". So, she used the body of her titaness friend, floating on the water, as a birthplace . . . but that last restriction implies that she hid somewhere on the titaness's body that had NEVER seen sunlight or moonlight . . . so inside her somewhere. Everyone I ask has a different answer as to where, exactly, the birth took place.
11:34 500 BC times -Transitional period between the archeic and classical periods of anchant Greece - Athens and Sparta are becomeing the top dogs of Greece about now. - Athins a democracy now, and the Roman republic just become a thing (not to be confused with the Roman kingdom before, and Roman empire after it) -Early periods of greek philosophy (Socratis is about 100 years in the future), and seting the groundwork of mathematics and geometry (Pythagorus was popular in this time) -The Persion-Greek conflicts are starting soon, with "This is Sparta" hapening in a few decades. Hope this helps😅
Quoth Wikipedia: In Western Asia, the first half of this century was dominated by the Neo-Babylonian Empire, which had risen to power late in the previous century after successfully rebelling against Assyrian rule. The Kingdom of Judah came to an end in 586 BC when Babylonian forces under Nebuchadnezzar II captured Jerusalem, and removed most of its population to their own lands. Babylonian rule was ended in the 540s by Cyrus, who founded the Persian Empire in its stead. The Persian Empire continued to expand and grew into the greatest empire the world had known at the time. In Iron Age Europe, the Celtic expansion was in progress. China was in the Spring and Autumn period. Mediterranean: Beginning of Greek philosophy, flourishes during the 5th century BC The late Hallstatt culture period in Eastern and Central Europe, the late Bronze Age in Northern Europe East Asia: the Spring and Autumn period. Confucianism, Legalism and Moism flourish. Laozi founds Taoism West Asia: During the Persian empire, Zoroaster, a.k.a. Zarathustra, founded Zoroastrianism, a dualistic philosophy. This was also the time of the Babylonian captivity of the ancient Jews. Ancient India: the Buddha and Mahavira founded Buddhism and Jainism respectively The decline of the Olmec civilization in Central America
"Cicero was an orator in Rome before Caesar (Julius Caesar) came to power, around the 0s CE." I don't know how to tell you this... but Caesar was murdered in the Senate on the Ides of March in 44BC... kind of hard to assume power if you've been dead for over 4 decades.
I think Airier is conflating Julius Caesar and Augustus. Augustus and Marc Antony ordered Cicero’s death during their big political purge after taking power as the second triumvirate. Marc Anthony did it as revenge for some nasty speeches Cicero gave (at Augustus’s nudging) supporting Augustus over Antony as Caesar’s heir. Augustus let Cicero be murdered.
Fun fact: the goddess of childbirth was Hera and Zeus's daughter. So, whenever Hera keeps her on a tight leash to torment one of Zeus's mistresses, she's basically telling her daughter "you're grounded".
Cicero was a brilliant, orator, philosopher and all round writer. Along with being a very good Lawyer. He was also extremely egotistical and full of himself. He thought of himself has a supremely gifted politician. He was not. When he served as Consul he crushed an alleged conspiracy to overthrow the state by the Senator Cataline. To this day there is a lot of dispute over this conspiracy, with some thinking it was little more than a witch hunt by Cicero. But one thing is absolutely true Cicero milked this for all it's worth over and over again in his speeches etc. In those speeches Cicero would talk about how modest he was, but that he would not be surprised if huge monuments were raised to him or if some people didn't think of him as one of the greatest Romans ever. In Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar one of the conspirators suggest inviting Cicero to join. In the play another of the conspirators says that is a bad idea because Cicero will want all the credit. This nicely sums up Cicero's character. Cicero fancied himself a brilliant politician, which he was not. He was constantly out manouvered by other far more brilliant politicians. Cicero tried to pit Pompey against Caesar and failed. And when Caesar and Pompey actually fell out it had nothing to do with Cicero. Cicero then allied with Pompey. Pompey lost and Caesar decided to not eradicate all his enemies in a show of clemency and more or less pardoned Cicero. Cicero was not involved in the conspiracy to kill Caesar although after it was done he very publicly approved of it in speeches etc. Brutus the chief conspirator didn't want Cicero involved viewing Cicero has a disruptive individual who would try to take all the credit and everything else. Brutus is said to have remarked "Cicero will put up with servitude so long has he is praised". After the assassination Cicero tried to more or less take over. He failed, being completely outmatched by Mark Antony, who easily out manouvered him. Cicero thinking oratory would beat political skill gave a series of speeches attacking Mark Antony full of vicious personal attacks that merely served to enrage Mark Antony. When Caesar's heir Octavian, (Later the first Emperor of Rome Augustus), showed up Cicero tried to manipulate Octavian against Antony. Octavian saw through this right away, and being a much better politician eventually came to an agreement with Antony. (Antony also saw through Cicero's game also.) This is fascinating in that initially Antony and Octavian did not much like each other and it appears that it was the awareness that Cicero was trying to manipulate them that after some actual fighting between them they made up. Cicero was apparently planning to use Octavian to dispose of Antony after which he would get rid of Octavian. Antony and Octavian made up a list of people they wanted to get rid of and Cicero was very near the top. By this time both of them didn't just hate him they despised him, viewing him has a total rank amateur who was only a legend in his own mind. So Cicero got beheaded, his head sent to Antony and Octavian both of whom commented about the sort of brilliance required to end up with your head chopped off. Antony's wife Fluvia had fun sticking pins into Cicero's tongue.
About Apollos origin, I don't remember where exactly I got this from, if Red did another video specifically about Apollo, or if this was written by someone in the comments or even perhaps from someone elses video, but iirc, there are some similarities to an Egyptian god, especially with the birth-story, that Apollo may have been imported from Ancient Egypt, potentially as a consequence of their mothers being syncretized. -or perhaps their mothers even were the same proto-goddess originally, the Egyptians just came up with her son and the Greeks kinda liked the idea so they followed their lead.- Edit: Also, his story about how he came to Greece/build his temple at Delphi implies that his first worshippers on the Greek mainland were Cretans, may that be as settlers or just as the ones spreading him to the Greek, so at the very least it implies that he could've come from the Minoan pantheon, but also Crete is very much south to most of Greece, basically on the way to Egypt, potentially mapping out that the Cretans learned of Apollos Egyptian model first, and then brought him with them to Greece.
In answer to your question about the Roman pantheon, before the merger with Greek gods (bear in mind I am no expert), they were likely associated with the Etruscan pantheon, the Romans being essentially Etruscan peoples who migrated and founded a city on the Tiber even according to their own mythology codified much later by Virgil in the Anead that also ties them to the trojan Aneas. Early Rome, like their neighbours the Etruscans, Umbrians, and Samnites, would also have had contact with Greeks from its founding because of Greek colonies in the south of Italy and Sicily. And many of the Etruscan gods seem to have had crossovers with the Greek Pantheon as well. Much of Roman culture as we think of it was derived from the Etruscans as much or even more than the Greeks as the Romans tended to incorporate aspects of peoples they came into contact with, then further develop those borrowed ideas.
Remember: wwhile there are Turns in MODERN day here, there hasn't been them much, untill way later in the 11th century. In the time period this area was mostly inhabited by Phrygians, Dardanians (close relatives of Illyrians most likely; the people of the area the Troy was located), Hittites, Greeks and Scythians. This is important, since "Turkish" implies way, WAY more than just geographic area and it would be kinda like calling Briton culture and mythology "English" just because of geography... and it's happening with King Arthur....
So I actually mention this in the comments of the original video, but it is entirely possible for twins to have separate birthdays. And I'm not talking like one was born before midnight and the other after, I mean there are instances where there are weeks between one twin's birth and the other. Both twins need to have their own placentas and amniotic sacs, which is very common with fraternal twins. Now it is rare and was even more so before modern medicine, and often happens when something goes wrong, so one twin is born early, often leading to its death, while the other stays in the womb so it can develop a bit more. But it is possible. It's just something I find neat, and thought others would, since the 9 days between the births of Artemis and Apollo often trips people up.
Most of the Pre-Rome tribes of Italy survived through the Roman Empire all the way till the World Wars and the unification of Italy as a country. Those three events basically ended the actual separation of the tribes as differing people.
If my memory serves apollo dissed eros aka cupids aim so he struck apollo with an arrow that made him fall in love with daphne and struck daphne with an arrow that made her feel nothing for apollo. Apollo chased after daphne and daphne asked some god to turn her into a tree so that apollo couldn't chase after her any more
I know this theory isn't accepted by everyone, but it is still a genuine theory. You have every right to accept or reject it as you see fit. Before the Latins took over, Italy was inhabited by various peoples, many of whom were somewhat related to the Latins. However, the Etruscans were not originally related. Linguistic and genetic evidence suggests that Europe underwent significant changes with the spread of the Indo-Europeans. The Indo-Europeans, who migrated into most of Europe, northern India, Caucasian mountains, and west Asia, included tribes such as the balto Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, italic, Hellenic, many pre Slavic Balkan peoples like the Albanians, then there are the Iranian tribes, aryans of india, Armenians, Anatolians (like the Hittites), and Tocharians. When the Indo-Europeans entered what is now modern-day France, some of them became the Celtic peoples, while those who moved south became the Italic tribes and spoke Proto-Italic. Linguistic theories propose that Proto-Italic split into two branches: Proto-Latino-Faliscan and Proto-Sabellic/Osco-Umbrian. Proto-Latino-Faliscan includes Latin, Faliscan, Lanuvian, and Praenestinian, while Proto-Sabellic/Osco-Umbrian includes Oscan, Umbrian, Volscian, Sabine, South Picene, Marsian, Paeligni, Hernican, Marrucinian, and Pre-Samnite. These languages are all related to Latin. It is believed that they shared similar religious beliefs. Many gods we consider Greek deities were adopted by the Romans. In some cases, the Romans adopted Greek gods, but in other cases, they integrated their own pre-Greek deities and absorbed Greek gods. The Roman god Jupiter, for example, has origins in Proto-Italic. He is thought to have been called djous patēr, which evolved into Jupiter. The word djous meant "day" or "sky," and patēr means "father," reflecting his role as the ruler of the gods. Zeus, on the other hand, has the epithet "Father Zeus," indicating a time when he was referred to as Dzéus pater. The Latin word for "god," Deus, evolved from Proto-Italic djous to Latin Deus and later became Italian dio. This root shares common Proto-Indo-European origins with words in other languages, such as Irish Día, Sanskrit Devá, and Lithuanian Dievas. In Germanic languages, this root evolved into the name for the old Norse god Týr. In Zoroastrianism, the term Daeva came to denote evil spirits or demons, whereas Ahura referred to good deities, with Ahura Mazda being the supreme god. Originally, in Hinduism, the Asuras were not considered evil, but over time, they became antagonistic to the Devas, who were the gods.
wait, i just stoppet at 6:39. The ledger clearly states do-po-ta as House master. Turn that name around tapodo-apodo-apolo. they might just have turned the silibles around so as to not invoke the name.
36:02 Hmm, alternatively, Apollo was recently introduced to Greece _from_ the proto-roman cultures on the Italian peninsula, so they hadn't diverged enough for their name and basic qualities to change and require syncretising, it was just the same god. That region was given as one of the possible locations of his birth after all, and there was some contact between them by the time the Greeks were writing about Apollo 🤷
You keep conflating Pan Hermes and Mycenaean Dionysus as the original version of Hermes. What Red said in her Hermes video is that Hermes is probably an offshoot of the original Pan (based on a potential epithet, "Pan Hermes"), taking with him the roads/travelers, trade, theft and psychopomp aspects, and leaving Pan as a simple rustic nature god that looks like a satyr. Mycenaean Dionysus (c. 1700-1200 BCE) was also potentially a god of nature, but also of madness, intoxication, wine and death (dying and being reborn, traveling in and out of the Undefrword), and a son of Zeus. His older form potentially had horns, but there's no known link to Pan Hermes. After not evolving the same way other Olympians did from their Mycenaean to Hellenistic forms during the Dark Ages (c. 1200-750 BCE), this Dionysus was then influenced by the religion of Orphism (venerating figures coming in and out of the Underworld) in the 600s BCE. He was also synthesized with Zagreus, an archaic Underworld god that was probably the son of Hades. He then grew into his recognizable Hellenstic form of mostly being a god of wine with some lingering associations with madness and death in the 400s to 300s BCE.
You know, I just realized... that we also have sunday and monday, the day of the sun and the day of the moon, right next to each other, where on one you can relax and enjoy the things civilization provided us with, while the other day is marking a time of uncertainty, a wild and dark time, also known as the first day of a new working week.
Romans actually took bits and pieces of various cultures, mostly Greek but they didn't exactly stop there as the empire grew. They rarely took a whole concept and just integrated it into their thing. Instead, they changed bits and pieces to fit their view of the world that considerably differed from the Greek or any other, as would be normal. Apollo is one of the few gods that was accepted like this, Isis is another example that comes at the top of my head. Yes, that Cicero. Some archaeological and historical sources indicates that it might have been Octavian Augustus' influence that ended up giving Apollo the sun attributes, because Octavian liked to compare himself to Apollo and Hercules and was as such depicted resembling them in certain artifacts discovered so far. For Apollo, this included a crown of sun rays, which later became common on coins for various wannabe emperors who associated themselves with Roman, Greek or other cultures' sun gods. Also, there are some versions of the Orion myth where it is said that Apollo either arranged for his death or even did it himself because he knew Orion r*ped someone already and had been punished for it before he met Artemis.
I like the reminder that Gods aren't humans. It not only makes their actions more understandable but their portrayals too. Sure Hades would kidnap Persephone, stealing a girl from her mother's arms, that's what death does. Yeah Artemis can be cruel, that's the law of nature. Of course Zeus abuses his power, that's what most kings did. Ares and Aphrodite, love and war, working so well together.
The gods' portrayals make so much more sense when you consider that they are subject to their domain. Of *course* Zeus abuses his subjects and strikes people down unjustly at times. He's not just a guy with lightning powers, he's the *King*, and kings abuse their power, and justice is imperfect. Of course Poseidon will randomly decide to be a dick and royally screw over Odysseus, he's the *Sea*, and the sea can turn on you in an instant if you aren't careful and don't see the signs. They can't just improve and be better, because they are personifications of these concepts, not people with power over these concepts. Edit: oh and a big one, of course Hades kidnapped Persephone, the young maiden goddess, taking her to the underworld. Hades is *the Underworld*, and death sometimes takes people before their time, no matter how young and innocent they might be.
So here are some facts about the movements of ancient peoples around the Bronze Age Collapse and subsequent Dark Age in that specific corner of the ancient world from a book dating to the mid-90s when it was published so a lot of the information is likely inaccurate when compared to current texts on the subject. Take this information with a grain of salt and don't assume that because it was once thought to be true that it still is considered to be such. There are also some additional suppositions about where many now familiar Greek gods that lack Mycanean origins could have come from aside from the Phoenicians based on logic and what little I know of anthropology. So: - Sometime after the collapse of the Mycanean and Minoan civilizations the Doric peoples colonized the peninsula that would become known as Hellas. - A couple hundred years after the Doric people moved in, the Ionian peoples joined in colonizing the peninsula and joined their culture with what would have been the hybridized Doric-Mycanean culture of the time. - Neither the Doric nor Ionian peoples had a writing system and the survivors of the Mycanean collapse were most likely peasants who never knew how to write in the first place since that was what priests and aristocrats were for and both of which were classes that did not survive the collapse of their civilization taking their writing system with them. This is why the post-Bronze Age Period and much of the early Iron Age in the are was known as a Dark Age. Nobody living on the peninsula at the time knew how to write, so they didn't leave written records, and so what their culture was actually like is left 'in the dark' for text-oriented historians. Oral history, of course, became conflated with myth and teasing apart fact from fiction is never easy. - We don't know what gods the Doric peoples worshiped before entering the region that would become Greece. We don't know what gods the Ionian peoples worshiped before moving in either. But we do know they had to have worshiped some gods before learning of the Mycanean pantheon because that's just what humans do. We create gods and stories that feature those gods to explain the world. There *would* have been distinct Doric and Ionian pantheons at some point. We just know nothing about them because, again, Dark Ages be like that and because - by the time stuff was getting written down - the new, forgein gods weren't new anymore. They were local and had been for a while. Because the remnant Mycanean culture had completely merged with the Doric and Ionian cultures by then and the Doric and Ionian cultures had merged with it as had their collective and once distinct mythologies. - Near as anthropologists and historians can tell, the Dorian people came out of the lands north and maybe west of future Greece and the Ionians may have traveled the coasts down from the Black Sea, so north and east. Where their homelands may have been prior to that is anyone's guess. First contact between these groups would have been an interesting period for a time traveling linguist to experience because unrelated linguistic families colliding is always interesting. The book I am using as a reference described the Dorian people as being 'pastoralist' which suggests to me they were either doing the hunter-gathering thing or did mainly sheep/ goat herding and that the migration was more of a search for new pastures for their herds or just following the food than actually seeking a new long term home before they caught subsistence farming from the Mycanean remnants. That book had very little to say about the Ionians. Maybe they did primarily fishing before they caught farming from the other two groups. Maybe they were bird oriented people. Maybe they did trade/piracy. All I know is that the book's author thought they came down the coasts from the Black Sea because that is really all it said about them aside from the Dorian people's aesthetics inspiring the design of the Doric column and the Ionian people's aesthetics inspired the Ionian column. - The survivors of the Minoan civilization may have been the ancestors of the Aetolian people who inhabited the islands between Anatolia and Greece before the Phoenicians discovered them again and sort of brought them into contact with the people inhabiting of Hellas through trading with absolutely everyone. We don't know what the Minoan pantheon looked like either, though. It's safe to assume it influenced the later Hellenic one though because everybody was influencing everyone else; mostly thanks to the Phoenicians first, then the Hellenic peoples themselves, and finally the Romans.
Ok I know it's a little out of order, but if I remember correctly you have some beef with Stranger in a Strange Land, and OSP has a video about that. C'mon, it will be therapeutic 😊
Nitpick, but allow yourself to rewind when you pause mid sentence. Please... Also "Turkish" - at that point in time there was no "Turkey". Persia and various tribes in Anatolia.
Any idea when you're going to continue reacting to the Nathan Fielder video? Super Eyepatch Wolf's new video aboht Social Anxiety Horror feels like a natural extension to that.
42:20 Funny you mention that, as Cicero's speeches were required reading around that time in Britain and France, as he's not inly the creator of what would become the Republic model, both Constitutional like America and Democratic like France, but is also believed to have founded the ideals of Libertarianism given his views on Property Rights. In fact, John Adams himself referenced Cicero when creating the Senate Basically, without the teachings of Marcus Tullius Cicero, any proper Post-Rome republic would not exist. And I mean ACTUAL Republics, not "People's Republics," because that's just Communism.
Hate to be that guy, but Day 2 of asking you to react to BHultra's retrospective on Bray Wyatt (if it turns out he doesn't allow reactions I'll stop doing this)
Yo Airier still putting watch hauntlinch d&d cartoon review,if you worry about copyright issues because I've said it was made by toei they don't own it anymore the characters since 2020 be use in lots of other stuff wizard of the cost has made figures of the characters the film d&d honour amongst thefts the character are in it so it clear toei no longer own them, i not a member yet i see the next epic thumbnail when did the horse from berserk enter the Odyssey?
You might wanna brush up on your Roman History. Your are roughly 50 years off with a lot of it. Also.... While Ceasar didn't fear Cicero's combat abilities it doesn't mean he had none. Every single Roman _citizen_ was also a Soldier. And while Marcus Tulius Cicero was no General and certainly not known for it, calling him combat-inept is a bit much :)
16:30 nah, Hera just gets a +20 bonus to everything vs. Illegitimate children of zues.
She was a patron goddess of marriage and families, so that really shouldn't be surprising. Pretty much just fact.
Hermes is a smart guy, that's why.
@@WraythSkitzofrenik
He's the god of roads, messengers, merchents, travelers, theves and tricksters.
He's practicly the god of street smarts
16:21 Hera was one of the Gods in the Titanimachy, bud, she waged the First War
Yep. She has the title "Queen of the Gods", and "Godess of Women" for a reason.
one of her epithet is Alexandros ( Defender of Man ), she's a warrior goddess in her own right.
33:19 When ZEUS is more moral than... anyone.
Note: That was "anyone" as in "someone," not "everyone."
Castor and Pollux are a case of twins where one is a demigod and the other one is mortal, so is Hellen and clamenestra pulling from the examples red made. Also Heracles had a twin who I can't remember the name from the top of my head because he's so overshadowed by Heracles.
Herakles’ twin was Iphikles.
Also, Castor and Pollux aren’t the only ones in that family tree: Helen and Clytemnestra are sometimes described as twins like the Dioscuri, if Helen’s godly parent is Zeus.
2:09 Heracles and his twin brother are an example of twins where only one has a divine parent.
Hey! Italian here! territorially speaking, Sicily is indeed part of Italy. Culturally speaking, they're different, but so is Naples (Neapolis, in old greek), Apulia and so on, which are all very different culturally, not only from each other, but the rest of Italy (and Rome, in the past) as a whole!
Given that we're talking about Artemis and Apollo, I'm here to share my favorite anecdote about them; a version of their birth myth not realizing the implications of its own statements. In this one, Hera's restriction on their mother was that she could not give birth "anywhere on the mainland, on any island, or any place ever seen by the sun or moon". So, she used the body of her titaness friend, floating on the water, as a birthplace . . . but that last restriction implies that she hid somewhere on the titaness's body that had NEVER seen sunlight or moonlight . . . so inside her somewhere.
Everyone I ask has a different answer as to where, exactly, the birth took place.
"If god is all powerful, he cannot be all good.
If god is all good, he cannot be all powerful." - Lex Luthor.
"I'm not even going to try to say this name."
(Immediately tries to say the name)
11:34
500 BC times
-Transitional period between the archeic and classical periods of anchant Greece
- Athens and Sparta are becomeing the top dogs of Greece about now.
- Athins a democracy now, and the Roman republic just become a thing (not to be confused with the Roman kingdom before, and Roman empire after it)
-Early periods of greek philosophy (Socratis is about 100 years in the future), and seting the groundwork of mathematics and geometry (Pythagorus was popular in this time)
-The Persion-Greek conflicts are starting soon, with "This is Sparta" hapening in a few decades.
Hope this helps😅
Thanks. 😁👍
Quoth Wikipedia:
In Western Asia, the first half of this century was dominated by the Neo-Babylonian Empire, which had risen to power late in the previous century after successfully rebelling against Assyrian rule. The Kingdom of Judah came to an end in 586 BC when Babylonian forces under Nebuchadnezzar II captured Jerusalem, and removed most of its population to their own lands. Babylonian rule was ended in the 540s by Cyrus, who founded the Persian Empire in its stead. The Persian Empire continued to expand and grew into the greatest empire the world had known at the time.
In Iron Age Europe, the Celtic expansion was in progress. China was in the Spring and Autumn period.
Mediterranean: Beginning of Greek philosophy, flourishes during the 5th century BC
The late Hallstatt culture period in Eastern and Central Europe, the late Bronze Age in Northern Europe
East Asia: the Spring and Autumn period. Confucianism, Legalism and Moism flourish. Laozi founds Taoism
West Asia: During the Persian empire, Zoroaster, a.k.a. Zarathustra, founded Zoroastrianism, a dualistic philosophy. This was also the time of the Babylonian captivity of the ancient Jews.
Ancient India: the Buddha and Mahavira founded Buddhism and Jainism respectively
The decline of the Olmec civilization in Central America
"Cicero was an orator in Rome before Caesar (Julius Caesar) came to power, around the 0s CE." I don't know how to tell you this... but Caesar was murdered in the Senate on the Ides of March in 44BC... kind of hard to assume power if you've been dead for over 4 decades.
Ceaser was just THAT GOOD
Well, he did say he was bad with dates.
Eh, less than half a century is close enough.
I think Airier is conflating Julius Caesar and Augustus. Augustus and Marc Antony ordered Cicero’s death during their big political purge after taking power as the second triumvirate. Marc Anthony did it as revenge for some nasty speeches Cicero gave (at Augustus’s nudging) supporting Augustus over Antony as Caesar’s heir. Augustus let Cicero be murdered.
Fun fact: the goddess of childbirth was Hera and Zeus's daughter. So, whenever Hera keeps her on a tight leash to torment one of Zeus's mistresses, she's basically telling her daughter "you're grounded".
Comparative fan fiction describes all religions. Its like someone waving a copy of lord of the rings and yelling "Gandalf is Great!" In Elvish.
There’s actually a miscellaneous myth for Selene, Greek goddess of the moon, if you wanna look at that!
18:55 no, what Red meant was that Aphrodite used to be a war goddess
Cicero was a brilliant, orator, philosopher and all round writer. Along with being a very good Lawyer. He was also extremely egotistical and full of himself. He thought of himself has a supremely gifted politician. He was not. When he served as Consul he crushed an alleged conspiracy to overthrow the state by the Senator Cataline. To this day there is a lot of dispute over this conspiracy, with some thinking it was little more than a witch hunt by Cicero. But one thing is absolutely true Cicero milked this for all it's worth over and over again in his speeches etc. In those speeches Cicero would talk about how modest he was, but that he would not be surprised if huge monuments were raised to him or if some people didn't think of him as one of the greatest Romans ever.
In Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar one of the conspirators suggest inviting Cicero to join. In the play another of the conspirators says that is a bad idea because Cicero will want all the credit. This nicely sums up Cicero's character.
Cicero fancied himself a brilliant politician, which he was not. He was constantly out manouvered by other far more brilliant politicians. Cicero tried to pit Pompey against Caesar and failed. And when Caesar and Pompey actually fell out it had nothing to do with Cicero. Cicero then allied with Pompey. Pompey lost and Caesar decided to not eradicate all his enemies in a show of clemency and more or less pardoned Cicero. Cicero was not involved in the conspiracy to kill Caesar although after it was done he very publicly approved of it in speeches etc. Brutus the chief conspirator didn't want Cicero involved viewing Cicero has a disruptive individual who would try to take all the credit and everything else. Brutus is said to have remarked "Cicero will put up with servitude so long has he is praised".
After the assassination Cicero tried to more or less take over. He failed, being completely outmatched by Mark Antony, who easily out manouvered him. Cicero thinking oratory would beat political skill gave a series of speeches attacking Mark Antony full of vicious personal attacks that merely served to enrage Mark Antony. When Caesar's heir Octavian, (Later the first Emperor of Rome Augustus), showed up Cicero tried to manipulate Octavian against Antony. Octavian saw through this right away, and being a much better politician eventually came to an agreement with Antony. (Antony also saw through Cicero's game also.) This is fascinating in that initially Antony and Octavian did not much like each other and it appears that it was the awareness that Cicero was trying to manipulate them that after some actual fighting between them they made up. Cicero was apparently planning to use Octavian to dispose of Antony after which he would get rid of Octavian.
Antony and Octavian made up a list of people they wanted to get rid of and Cicero was very near the top. By this time both of them didn't just hate him they despised him, viewing him has a total rank amateur who was only a legend in his own mind. So Cicero got beheaded, his head sent to Antony and Octavian both of whom commented about the sort of brilliance required to end up with your head chopped off. Antony's wife Fluvia had fun sticking pins into Cicero's tongue.
"Fluvia had fun sticking pins into Cicero's tongue."
So just ou of question... WTF?
Theres another set of Fraternal twins in fiction. Luke and Leia from Star Wars
…well, if we’re going to count *those* kinds of things, then so are Dipper and Mable.
@@Kayta-Linda Cersei and Jaime?
If you think about it, Luke and Leia are Apollo and Artemis
@@gt5bonelesshuman421 Ironically, for once, the Greek version is the one with less incestuous sexual tension.
@@samrevlej9331 And that says a lot
About Apollos origin, I don't remember where exactly I got this from, if Red did another video specifically about Apollo, or if this was written by someone in the comments or even perhaps from someone elses video, but iirc, there are some similarities to an Egyptian god, especially with the birth-story, that Apollo may have been imported from Ancient Egypt, potentially as a consequence of their mothers being syncretized. -or perhaps their mothers even were the same proto-goddess originally, the Egyptians just came up with her son and the Greeks kinda liked the idea so they followed their lead.-
Edit: Also, his story about how he came to Greece/build his temple at Delphi implies that his first worshippers on the Greek mainland were Cretans, may that be as settlers or just as the ones spreading him to the Greek, so at the very least it implies that he could've come from the Minoan pantheon, but also Crete is very much south to most of Greece, basically on the way to Egypt, potentially mapping out that the Cretans learned of Apollos Egyptian model first, and then brought him with them to Greece.
In answer to your question about the Roman pantheon, before the merger with Greek gods (bear in mind I am no expert), they were likely associated with the Etruscan pantheon, the Romans being essentially Etruscan peoples who migrated and founded a city on the Tiber even according to their own mythology codified much later by Virgil in the Anead that also ties them to the trojan Aneas. Early Rome, like their neighbours the Etruscans, Umbrians, and Samnites, would also have had contact with Greeks from its founding because of Greek colonies in the south of Italy and Sicily. And many of the Etruscan gods seem to have had crossovers with the Greek Pantheon as well. Much of Roman culture as we think of it was derived from the Etruscans as much or even more than the Greeks as the Romans tended to incorporate aspects of peoples they came into contact with, then further develop those borrowed ideas.
Remember: wwhile there are Turns in MODERN day here, there hasn't been them much, untill way later in the 11th century. In the time period this area was mostly inhabited by Phrygians, Dardanians (close relatives of Illyrians most likely; the people of the area the Troy was located), Hittites, Greeks and Scythians.
This is important, since "Turkish" implies way, WAY more than just geographic area and it would be kinda like calling Briton culture and mythology "English" just because of geography... and it's happening with King Arthur....
So I actually mention this in the comments of the original video, but it is entirely possible for twins to have separate birthdays. And I'm not talking like one was born before midnight and the other after, I mean there are instances where there are weeks between one twin's birth and the other. Both twins need to have their own placentas and amniotic sacs, which is very common with fraternal twins. Now it is rare and was even more so before modern medicine, and often happens when something goes wrong, so one twin is born early, often leading to its death, while the other stays in the womb so it can develop a bit more. But it is possible.
It's just something I find neat, and thought others would, since the 9 days between the births of Artemis and Apollo often trips people up.
Most of the Pre-Rome tribes of Italy survived through the Roman Empire all the way till the World Wars and the unification of Italy as a country. Those three events basically ended the actual separation of the tribes as differing people.
If my memory serves apollo dissed eros aka cupids aim so he struck apollo with an arrow that made him fall in love with daphne and struck daphne with an arrow that made her feel nothing for apollo. Apollo chased after daphne and daphne asked some god to turn her into a tree so that apollo couldn't chase after her any more
I know this theory isn't accepted by everyone, but it is still a genuine theory. You have every right to accept or reject it as you see fit.
Before the Latins took over, Italy was inhabited by various peoples, many of whom were somewhat related to the Latins. However, the Etruscans were not originally related. Linguistic and genetic evidence suggests that Europe underwent significant changes with the spread of the Indo-Europeans. The Indo-Europeans, who migrated into most of Europe, northern India, Caucasian mountains, and west Asia, included tribes such as the balto Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, italic, Hellenic, many pre Slavic Balkan peoples like the Albanians, then there are the Iranian tribes, aryans of india, Armenians, Anatolians (like the Hittites), and Tocharians.
When the Indo-Europeans entered what is now modern-day France, some of them became the Celtic peoples, while those who moved south became the Italic tribes and spoke Proto-Italic. Linguistic theories propose that Proto-Italic split into two branches: Proto-Latino-Faliscan and Proto-Sabellic/Osco-Umbrian. Proto-Latino-Faliscan includes Latin, Faliscan, Lanuvian, and Praenestinian, while Proto-Sabellic/Osco-Umbrian includes Oscan, Umbrian, Volscian, Sabine, South Picene, Marsian, Paeligni, Hernican, Marrucinian, and Pre-Samnite.
These languages are all related to Latin. It is believed that they shared similar religious beliefs. Many gods we consider Greek deities were adopted by the Romans. In some cases, the Romans adopted Greek gods, but in other cases, they integrated their own pre-Greek deities and absorbed Greek gods. The Roman god Jupiter, for example, has origins in Proto-Italic. He is thought to have been called djous patēr, which evolved into Jupiter. The word djous meant "day" or "sky," and patēr means "father," reflecting his role as the ruler of the gods.
Zeus, on the other hand, has the epithet "Father Zeus," indicating a time when he was referred to as Dzéus pater. The Latin word for "god," Deus, evolved from Proto-Italic djous to Latin Deus and later became Italian dio. This root shares common Proto-Indo-European origins with words in other languages, such as Irish Día, Sanskrit Devá, and Lithuanian Dievas. In Germanic languages, this root evolved into the name for the old Norse god Týr.
In Zoroastrianism, the term Daeva came to denote evil spirits or demons, whereas Ahura referred to good deities, with Ahura Mazda being the supreme god. Originally, in Hinduism, the Asuras were not considered evil, but over time, they became antagonistic to the Devas, who were the gods.
wait, i just stoppet at 6:39. The ledger clearly states do-po-ta as House master. Turn that name around tapodo-apodo-apolo. they might just have turned the silibles around so as to not invoke the name.
0:14 Okay, in my defense cost of living is astronomical right now and I heard you let lots of people live in here rent free so...
Look say what you will about Zeus being a total absolute jerk! But he's even in favor of free health care
30:52 That's supposed to be a bear (yeah I know real bears don't have long tails but the constellation ones Ursa Major and Minor do for some reason).
She’s the matriarch. Power is not only combat or strength. She’s Artemis’s step mom. Without the second marriage.
I love this two twins lol
Eveyone knows who Sicily truly belongs to...
The Normans!
35:05 I don't know much before the Romulus and Remus story.
Don't feel bad about it, not even the Romans did.
Airier: *geeks out*
Also airier: I'm so sorry I'm geeking out
Channel fans: no sorry. Please, do carry on geeking out.
😊
36:02 Hmm, alternatively, Apollo was recently introduced to Greece _from_ the proto-roman cultures on the Italian peninsula, so they hadn't diverged enough for their name and basic qualities to change and require syncretising, it was just the same god. That region was given as one of the possible locations of his birth after all, and there was some contact between them by the time the Greeks were writing about Apollo 🤷
You keep conflating Pan Hermes and Mycenaean Dionysus as the original version of Hermes. What Red said in her Hermes video is that Hermes is probably an offshoot of the original Pan (based on a potential epithet, "Pan Hermes"), taking with him the roads/travelers, trade, theft and psychopomp aspects, and leaving Pan as a simple rustic nature god that looks like a satyr.
Mycenaean Dionysus (c. 1700-1200 BCE) was also potentially a god of nature, but also of madness, intoxication, wine and death (dying and being reborn, traveling in and out of the Undefrword), and a son of Zeus. His older form potentially had horns, but there's no known link to Pan Hermes. After not evolving the same way other Olympians did from their Mycenaean to Hellenistic forms during the Dark Ages (c. 1200-750 BCE), this Dionysus was then influenced by the religion of Orphism (venerating figures coming in and out of the Underworld) in the 600s BCE. He was also synthesized with Zagreus, an archaic Underworld god that was probably the son of Hades. He then grew into his recognizable Hellenstic form of mostly being a god of wine with some lingering associations with madness and death in the 400s to 300s BCE.
CONGRATS ON 100k!!!!!
I like the theories. I hope we find more stuff on this.
11:09 there was the dorric invasion, but I'm sure how much would that have played into it
You know, I just realized... that we also have sunday and monday, the day of the sun and the day of the moon, right next to each other, where on one you can relax and enjoy the things civilization provided us with, while the other day is marking a time of uncertainty, a wild and dark time, also known as the first day of a new working week.
For a Myclanious Myths video may I suggest Utgard Loki
ARE YOU EXCITED FOR THE WISDOM SAGA??
YES!!!!!
😁
@@Airier JUST 18 MORE DAYS!!!
maybe when we eventually get the contents of the Herculaneum papyri reconstructed we might get some more Apollo lore.
I had twins six minutes apart. They can be farther apart but nine days. NOPE that's a god thing.
Romans actually took bits and pieces of various cultures, mostly Greek but they didn't exactly stop there as the empire grew. They rarely took a whole concept and just integrated it into their thing. Instead, they changed bits and pieces to fit their view of the world that considerably differed from the Greek or any other, as would be normal. Apollo is one of the few gods that was accepted like this, Isis is another example that comes at the top of my head.
Yes, that Cicero.
Some archaeological and historical sources indicates that it might have been Octavian Augustus' influence that ended up giving Apollo the sun attributes, because Octavian liked to compare himself to Apollo and Hercules and was as such depicted resembling them in certain artifacts discovered so far. For Apollo, this included a crown of sun rays, which later became common on coins for various wannabe emperors who associated themselves with Roman, Greek or other cultures' sun gods.
Also, there are some versions of the Orion myth where it is said that Apollo either arranged for his death or even did it himself because he knew Orion r*ped someone already and had been punished for it before he met Artemis.
41:59 it was Augustus that he oppose and was murder in the purge he Made after taking control of Rome
Before the Romans were the Etruscans.
Airier should react to the 3D Ultrkill animations. Those are a bit more understandable then Maxor's videos.
I like the reminder that Gods aren't humans. It not only makes their actions more understandable but their portrayals too. Sure Hades would kidnap Persephone, stealing a girl from her mother's arms, that's what death does. Yeah Artemis can be cruel, that's the law of nature. Of course Zeus abuses his power, that's what most kings did. Ares and Aphrodite, love and war, working so well together.
The gods' portrayals make so much more sense when you consider that they are subject to their domain.
Of *course* Zeus abuses his subjects and strikes people down unjustly at times. He's not just a guy with lightning powers, he's the *King*, and kings abuse their power, and justice is imperfect.
Of course Poseidon will randomly decide to be a dick and royally screw over Odysseus, he's the *Sea*, and the sea can turn on you in an instant if you aren't careful and don't see the signs. They can't just improve and be better, because they are personifications of these concepts, not people with power over these concepts.
Edit: oh and a big one, of course Hades kidnapped Persephone, the young maiden goddess, taking her to the underworld. Hades is *the Underworld*, and death sometimes takes people before their time, no matter how young and innocent they might be.
So here are some facts about the movements of ancient peoples around the Bronze Age Collapse and subsequent Dark Age in that specific corner of the ancient world from a book dating to the mid-90s when it was published so a lot of the information is likely inaccurate when compared to current texts on the subject. Take this information with a grain of salt and don't assume that because it was once thought to be true that it still is considered to be such. There are also some additional suppositions about where many now familiar Greek gods that lack Mycanean origins could have come from aside from the Phoenicians based on logic and what little I know of anthropology. So:
- Sometime after the collapse of the Mycanean and Minoan civilizations the Doric peoples colonized the peninsula that would become known as Hellas.
- A couple hundred years after the Doric people moved in, the Ionian peoples joined in colonizing the peninsula and joined their culture with what would have been the hybridized Doric-Mycanean culture of the time.
- Neither the Doric nor Ionian peoples had a writing system and the survivors of the Mycanean collapse were most likely peasants who never knew how to write in the first place since that was what priests and aristocrats were for and both of which were classes that did not survive the collapse of their civilization taking their writing system with them. This is why the post-Bronze Age Period and much of the early Iron Age in the are was known as a Dark Age. Nobody living on the peninsula at the time knew how to write, so they didn't leave written records, and so what their culture was actually like is left 'in the dark' for text-oriented historians. Oral history, of course, became conflated with myth and teasing apart fact from fiction is never easy.
- We don't know what gods the Doric peoples worshiped before entering the region that would become Greece. We don't know what gods the Ionian peoples worshiped before moving in either. But we do know they had to have worshiped some gods before learning of the Mycanean pantheon because that's just what humans do. We create gods and stories that feature those gods to explain the world. There *would* have been distinct Doric and Ionian pantheons at some point. We just know nothing about them because, again, Dark Ages be like that and because - by the time stuff was getting written down - the new, forgein gods weren't new anymore. They were local and had been for a while. Because the remnant Mycanean culture had completely merged with the Doric and Ionian cultures by then and the Doric and Ionian cultures had merged with it as had their collective and once distinct mythologies.
- Near as anthropologists and historians can tell, the Dorian people came out of the lands north and maybe west of future Greece and the Ionians may have traveled the coasts down from the Black Sea, so north and east. Where their homelands may have been prior to that is anyone's guess. First contact between these groups would have been an interesting period for a time traveling linguist to experience because unrelated linguistic families colliding is always interesting. The book I am using as a reference described the Dorian people as being 'pastoralist' which suggests to me they were either doing the hunter-gathering thing or did mainly sheep/ goat herding and that the migration was more of a search for new pastures for their herds or just following the food than actually seeking a new long term home before they caught subsistence farming from the Mycanean remnants. That book had very little to say about the Ionians. Maybe they did primarily fishing before they caught farming from the other two groups. Maybe they were bird oriented people. Maybe they did trade/piracy. All I know is that the book's author thought they came down the coasts from the Black Sea because that is really all it said about them aside from the Dorian people's aesthetics inspiring the design of the Doric column and the Ionian people's aesthetics inspired the Ionian column.
- The survivors of the Minoan civilization may have been the ancestors of the Aetolian people who inhabited the islands between Anatolia and Greece before the Phoenicians discovered them again and sort of brought them into contact with the people inhabiting of Hellas through trading with absolutely everyone. We don't know what the Minoan pantheon looked like either, though. It's safe to assume it influenced the later Hellenic one though because everybody was influencing everyone else; mostly thanks to the Phoenicians first, then the Hellenic peoples themselves, and finally the Romans.
I love Apollo! I fully intend to one day write a romance book about him one day. Unfortunately, he doesn’t have as much stuff as other Greek gods
So will his partner become a prophet, a plant, or both? 😂
@@leeshajoi Well, knowing Apollo Dead should be added to the list.
Ok I know it's a little out of order, but if I remember correctly you have some beef with Stranger in a Strange Land, and OSP has a video about that.
C'mon, it will be therapeutic 😊
If you’re after a bit more info on Cicero, I’d recommend jack rackham’s history abridged video on him
When did they have B17s in Ancient Greece? Did I miss something
42:17 Uh...is 0 CE a thing?
My recollection is that Cicero was around 106 BC to 43 BC, a year prior to Ceasar's death.
No it goes directly to 1 ce
@@keran911 Thank you, I thought so! I'd never heard 0 CE referenced.
You should have done the History of Rome for your 100,000 subscribers.
Nitpick, but allow yourself to rewind when you pause mid sentence. Please...
Also "Turkish" - at that point in time there was no "Turkey". Persia and various tribes in Anatolia.
You should check out Jake Doubleyoo's videos on mythology
Any idea when you're going to continue reacting to the Nathan Fielder video? Super Eyepatch Wolf's new video aboht Social Anxiety Horror feels like a natural extension to that.
Osp are awsome.
React to their Medea video next?
Better late than never.
Do u has a favorite god my favorite is Dionysus he very interesting to research and as a pagan it more fun .
42:20 Funny you mention that, as Cicero's speeches were required reading around that time in Britain and France, as he's not inly the creator of what would become the Republic model, both Constitutional like America and Democratic like France, but is also believed to have founded the ideals of Libertarianism given his views on Property Rights.
In fact, John Adams himself referenced Cicero when creating the Senate
Basically, without the teachings of Marcus Tullius Cicero, any proper Post-Rome republic would not exist. And I mean ACTUAL Republics, not "People's Republics," because that's just Communism.
Hate to be that guy, but Day 2 of asking you to react to BHultra's retrospective on Bray Wyatt (if it turns out he doesn't allow reactions I'll stop doing this)
Yo Airier still putting watch hauntlinch d&d cartoon review,if you worry about copyright issues because I've said it was made by toei they don't own it anymore the characters since 2020 be use in lots of other stuff wizard of the cost has made figures of the characters the film d&d honour amongst thefts the character are in it so it clear toei no longer own them, i not a member yet i see the next epic thumbnail when did the horse from berserk enter the Odyssey?
Can you do the boy who found fear by the plz
You might wanna brush up on your Roman History. Your are roughly 50 years off with a lot of it. Also.... While Ceasar didn't fear Cicero's combat abilities it doesn't mean he had none. Every single Roman _citizen_ was also a Soldier. And while Marcus Tulius Cicero was no General and certainly not known for it, calling him combat-inept is a bit much :)
If I'm only off by 50 years, then I'm doing better than usual. 😁😅