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Should YOU CARE about FOC? | I know I don't!
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- Опубліковано 31 січ 2021
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Great video, thank you. I started bow hunting in 1985 before FOC was a thing, but when heavy arrows were THE thing. We shot 450-475 grain arrows out of bows @230 FPS with cams the size of golf balls and never worried about pass-throughs, they just happened. I calculate FOC as part of the process but it definitely isn't the #1 priority when building an arrow. It's more of a data point in a formula.
Vv
With the efficiency of todays bows compared to the old stuff, virtually anything now is gonna hit like a daggum Mack truck, especially if it’s got some weight to it. I took a long time off from bow shooting/hunting, and I’m shopping around for a new bow now, and let me tell ya, after shooting my old bow from the Reagan era, then going to the shop to shoot some of the new ones, it’s not even close, despite being the same draw weight as my old bow. I mean these new bows are freaking rocket launchers. I think people just need to dial in the setup that’s MOST ACCURATE for them, and to Hell with all these details, because accuracy is still the king of a clean kill, and any arrow with a decent broadhead coming outta one of these new bows is gonna freaking hurt if it hits the mark.
Great perspective on the High FOC movement. Finding a balance between FOC, penetration, weight and speed is critical. Hunted with 580g arrows in 2020 and will continue (for bear) in 2021. Dropping weight and FOC for whitetail (425-450g) in 2021. 27"/55#
what brand arrow and broadhead do you use for this build. I am going bear hunting this sep 2021. and looking to build a heavier arrow. thx
I think a big misunderstanding about high FOC especially with the ranch fairy is that he promotes high FOC for "plan B" hits. Of course you will have a pass through on shots placed perfectly, probably even with a field point. But how often does that happen? Or how often does the target move even when you did place perfectly? High FOC is for busting through things when things go not as intended. Also don't have to be scared to blast through the shoulder on a quartering to shot.
FOC does make a difference and is something we should all pay attention to. A FOC to low makes your arrows deflect more due to wind and causes penetration issues. Even Easton's site now says for outdoor target shooting you should be between 10% and 15%. My hunting arrows are right at 20% and they shoot great.
Really appreciate all your content. You just verified and summed up my own conclusion for my next build, going from a light and fast arrow to a more reasonable hunting weight without going full Ashby. You should really have a bigger following. Thanks for the great videos.
I'm perfectly happy at a 10.5% foc and 432 gr Velocity XT 340/28" arrow .. using 100 gr. Wicked Tricks or Exodus and a 50gr insert ... I blow thru some damn big deer, I see no need for high FOC nor a heavy arrow (dont like either) ... btw, I am also at 285fps (Ritual 33/60lbs/30" draw).. LOVE this set up for big deer, hell, any deer !!
I know I went from sticking deer to killing deer when I got the F.O.C up and tuned. The 300 grain up front really does the job
But is it the FOC or the total mass that increased your penetration? Back when aluminum arrows were popular people got pass throughs all the time shooting slow bows and those were heavy arrows with very little FOC.
@@stick__shooter total mass contributes but the weight by itself isn't the entire picture. Higher FOC facilitates better flight. The forward mass pulls the arrow through the target which promotes higher levels of penetration. There are other benefits and lots of videos on UA-cam explaining them.
Nothing on an arrow "pulls".
@@mjkeat If you really go in depth with Ashby studies you'll notice that he uses different bows with different arrow setups and his data doesn't show results with today's fast powerful compounds compared to long bows. There is more correlation between total mass and penetration in his data than FOC.
@@bmills231 Maybe the terminology is wrong but it's an action similar to putting a paper clip on the nose of a paper airplane, weights on the front of a pine wood derby car, a badminton bird and so on. It's physics.
I like hearing both sides which gives a person to see the pros and cons of both sides. I don't think either one is right or wrong. I feel hearing both sides gives a person a place to start at and can tweak until they find what works best for them. Then it comes down to knowing your equipment and gaining confidence. Thanks for all of your experiences that you share.
I’m shooting 750 grains at 244 FPS with 22% FOC. 99 lbs KE and .8 slugs of momentum. Took a bit of tuning but have perfect arrow flight / trajectory.
In his defense, it was difficult to achieve this arrow setup, and expensive.
@@samanderson9267 that still sounds like a hill style trajectory. Care to say more?
@@BrownCreature and? Nothing learning to properly range distance and carrying a rangefinder won't cure plus you're able to utilize an arrow system with more potential for lethality. When recover rates are like they are the community needs more people shooting better arrow systems with a willingness to put in the work to utilize their equipment more efficiently.
@@mjkeat Do you have specs on recovery rates these days?
@@russelllangworthy8855 unfortunately not but I do follow a few trackers and have been doing some research. I also like to inquire when hunters post looking for tracking dogs. Another great source of info is hunters themselves. Processors are a source of info as well.
Recovery rates are likely abysmal and not something we'd want to be published I'd venture to guess. I believe that's a common sentiment amongst hunters. I imagine this is why it's been difficult to gather info on this topic.
Before I get going I’m not biased, I shot a 485 grain arrow. I agree with a happy medium of weight and speed. But for mid to short draw archers (like me) you can very easily increase your FOC even jumping up a spine or two from “standard” to do so. The shorter arrows allows for a higher spines, ie lower gpi, and shorter the arrow the higher the FOC anyways. For example. Me, a 28” draw can shoot a 25” arrow with a 75# draw. Arrow length plays a bigger factor than front weight when it comes to spine AND when it comes to FOC.
Generally a pretty well reasoned argument as usual. One thing I have my doubts about though is the worry of excessive pin gap. I shoot a shorter draw length than you (29") and my 20 and 30 yard detents for the ball on the axcel accuview sight I use are literally bumped up as tight as they can be together with my 577 grain arrows moving off the bow at 243FPS. The drop between 30 and 33 yards with that setup is about 3 to 3.5 inches, which is not great but not horrible either. Still most likely lethal if your arrow was going to impact where it should. It would be less inside of 30 yards. I know you have tried it and know what your gaps are, but me remembering back to when I shot a five pin sight, a 20, 25 and 30 yard pin with a .019 thou fiber would be a pretty tight cluster of pins even at 243FPS.
My FOC is only 13% on my current arrow with my shorter three blade broadheads and 11% with my long two blade broadheads. I would like to bump up my point weight a bit and go to a new two blade (I found out the ones I have are not as durable as I would like so I was going to make changes anyways), and I will experiment to see what I can do to bump my FOC. I won't get wrapped up around 19% or higher which I think is your main message, but I will see how high I can get it while keeping it around 600 to 650 (probably about 627) and have it shooting great with broadheads out to 65. I am thinking of switching to gold tip inserts so I can add weight to the tip in small increments as I tune.
I get why you are more concerned with trajectory than I am as you hunt more in dense woods with smaller windows for shots and I hunt in Arizona with less overhead obstructions. My shots are more likely to be a bit longer than yours too, but as you said in a recent video, your arrow will never beat the sound of the release, not even close. My mentality is that the longer the shot, the more likely the deer is to move before the arrow gets to it, so I want to have released an arrow that gives me a better chance at his movement making the shot lethal. My mentality shift came after a rib stopped my 439 grain arrow on a coues buck at 17 yards. I just thought that was ridiculous, so I bought a chronograph and did some math and figured out just how much energy I was leaving on the table with a light arrow.
I am not a blind follower of Ed Ashby or Ranch Fairy. I found them after I started experimenting for myself. I agree with a lot of what RF says, but I still have to ration it out and test it out for myself before accepting it. It think you are the same way but you have come to different conclusions. I respect that about you. I don't fully agree with you, but I respect that you have actually put thought in to your position and legitimately considered opposing arguments. That is more than a lot of people can say on either side of the issue.
I’m a full grown man and I’m 5’4”. Lol appreciate the info though man
Short people are people too!!!
I’m 5’4” as well and slender build so I only have 55 Pound bow. I have to shoot a really short d loop with a short neck thumb button to get to 27 inch draw. I don’t sweat about draw weight or FOC cuz I don’t hunt. Just shooting for fun.
Fellow dwarven archer checking in
5' 6" so I am not much taller..... :)
My wife pulling 42lbs, blew through her Antelope at 45yds with a 550gr arrow and 21%foc. I built it that heavy because we chase elk, here in the Rockies we need one setup that's works for everything!
45 lbs 550gr Find that hard to believe at 45 yards , 20yards maybe. Im calling that BS
@@travistwwreck1535 That would be a slow ass arrow 😂
@@brutallyhonestmf5578 Slow. Throwing a rock at the deer would be faster , what's the FPS you recon . ill guess 70 with a tail wind in a cyclone .🤣
Haha typical speed guy reply!
Obviously it will be slower than your setup.
The point being is at 45# she blew thru the antelope which by the way is the FASTEST animal in North America.
Stalking, approach and execution is still a huge part of this equation.
Its actually the whole concept behind true, woodsmanship bowhunting.
Bowhunters are concerned with killing the animal quickly. Dead as a doornail!
Archers are concerned with hitting the animal.
2 different mindsets. Same equipment ( the bow)
Yet all under the umbrella marketing of “ bowhunting”
Its an industry that realizes they garner more profit from the “ bowhunter” side than the target archery side. So they blend the two for profit.
Throwing pure bowhunters and live animal target archers all in one arena having everyone arguing over speed, penetration, arrow weights, FOC etc.
All the while laughing at the very people they sell their products too. Watching the profits roll in because of all the arguments over the inherent physics of the craft.
Consumer consumer consumer.
The US is no longer the globally dominating, high quality producers and manufacturing that we once was.
The USA is now the global leaders in consumerism. We have been sold as the worlds cash pot, sell to the Americans, they buy anything and everything. They consume consume and consume en masse.
We can thank other Americans for this. Namely American presidents and administration.
They always have you looking at this and that. Buying this and that.
To keep you from even noticing what the US people have become.
So now killing an animal to eat and survive is reality, more than going outdoors hoping to HIT an animal. ( sport archery)
Americans are doing this to Americans.
Its a sad thing to say, but true.
We like to believe its other countries doing this to us. Our govt ( Americans) allowed all of this yet slink away unaccountable.
“American made” broadheads yet made overseas. Sourced from overseas materials.
Still claiming USA made.
Small American broadhead crafters who sell their companies to large umbrella corporations for lump sum profit ( would you do it?) the corporation then outsources production to keep cost low and profit margins high, yet keep the once well trusted USA brand going under false pretenses.
Americans selling out Americans for the bottom line- profit
All the while people being distracted by this new tech and that new tech. Keep the masses arguing over grain weights, FOC vs speed and pin gaps. As long as they are distracted they will spend.
Bowhunting is high effective killing for sustenance.
Not wether kuiu is better than sitka blah blah blah.
Consume, argue, consume, debate, consume, change your mind about equipment, consume once again.
Buy buy buy
In that order.
God bless the USA!
Happy medium and what feels comfortably lethal. That's all u got to say.
Completely agree. I went too heavy last year just getting good arrow flight. 660 TAW. Did I blow through three shoulder on the same amount of deer? Yes, but I would have liked a lighter arrow. 500-575 TAW is my goal this year. %FOC isn't a total worry to me.
I shoot broadside/quarter away treestand whitetails 90% of the time under 40 yards. Just like some oompf if I need it.
Always appreciate the videos you post. One of the 2021 goals was to complete a heavy arrow build, mission accomplished with a 31" / 250 spine arrow, 678 grains w/ 20% FOC. Yes it is a flying piece of rebar (hope you don't mind me stealing that) but I'm definitely excited to give it a try.
Any results to share or is it too early yet where you live?
I built a 600 g arrow 21% foc this year. All i know is this, over the last 5 years with 430g arrow/mech broadhead I killed one deer. Lost 4 including one bounce off of a deer. This year, with the new arrow I’m 28”dl and 60#dw……….. i killed two deer. Both died within site of my stand. One was a pass through. The other broke the opposite shoulder. Trajectory? Who gives a crap at 20 yards. I’ll take the results of deer dead in 10 seconds and 30 yards.
@@decaturridgebees8761 You pretty much summed up my experience with a light and mechanical setup. I have lost 2 deer and 1 I know for sure was due to the mechanical head. The arrow literally skipped down the side of the deer and appeared to just be under its fur. I learned after that to only take direct broadside shots or slightly quartering. That exact same angle is perfectly fine with a Montec G5 full pass through in the vitals. When I switched to one piece cut on contact heads the deer started dropping in sight. I looked into more arrow build advice and realized what moving the weight forward does to the stiffness of the arrow at impact. Now I shoot a 560gr arrow with a 20% FOC and they are darts. Wind doesn't bother them and when they hit the target it is a harder impact than what I was used to with a 450gr arrow.
Go to a unlighted knocks and feathers or zingers and you will greatly increase foc! You'll go from @ 40 gr. To @ 18 in the back. Also, shorten arrow by at least an inch and you'll Jump up as well
I totally agree with you. As someone with a 30.5 DL there is no way to get a high foc arrow that's not ridiculously heavy. I also find my sweet spot to be ~485-515 grains keeping me around 275-280 fps. Easy to tune and I like the pin gap that gives me . New subscriber and really enjoyed your video with Brandon Mcdonald. Keep up the good work
Wow almost 30 K
I went back to using my arrows with the standard inserts a couple of months ago. I've been using the same arrows for a while now the only thing I've changed was the inserts, I thought I'd give some 100grn brass inserts ago but the arrows with the standard inserts were flying better and it wasn't because I was under spined either.
Once I started using glow nocks it was even clearer that the standard arrows were flying better.
Thank you. I never really understood what all the fuss was about with FOC.
And your explanation was the clearest and most understandable about this topic that I have ever heard. Keep up the good work
He missed some very important points, but hey its UA-cam.
I have a 640 grain Victory Xtorsion arrow build which is what u r talking about. I don't even know what the V-Force is & I don't want to know. Shooting a perfectly tuned arrow bare shaft is the key. The other key is buying the Victory VAP TKO'S & put a high grade cut on contact broadhead on the tip. Then u buy a Conquest Talon quiver so u can adapt it to micro arrows. The reason I do this is that not all hunting setups r the same. I need to drop a deer wishin 50 yards not through the middle of the ribcage, but through the thoracic cavity. If a deer goes 100 yards I am trespassing to recover it. I'm legal & lethal & I'm not going down the hoping & praying rabbit hole to recover my quarry. U can have a 30" draw & shoot a 300 spine Victory micro @ 515 to 550 grains (570 if u like the Firenock) & put the animal down so u get the great camera footage. I've been there when a deer is close & it goes 75 yards & collapses so a novice gun hunter with a 1 week season shoots it once with a slug 52 seconds after u put it down. I had it on camera but can't watch it since I learned from the experience & moved on.
Part of the problem with shooting extremely heavy arrows is the animals moving significantly before the arrow arrives. Increasing your broadhead integrity and shooting a tough, two blade, 150 grain broadhead can improve your arrow flight by raising foc, AND increase penetration due to a HEAVY-ER arrow verses a HEAVY arrow. If you shoot a lighted nock, you can offset some of the rear weight by replacing your plastic fletching with feathers. If you have shoulder bone hits, your results may vary on penetration however.
For those saying trajectory isn't a big deal think about any branch or piece of brush between you and the animal. If you have a smaller gap to shoot through or taking a longer shot it is more likely you'll have something in the way that you might not see. Brandon Mcdonald did a great video comparing a 400 and 800 grain arrow side by side with lighted nocks. Not much difference in how fast they got to the target bit a huge difference in trajectory.
My arrow builds for this year are gonna be the Victory Vap TKO elites with ethics archery components. 350 spine at 8.7 GPI cut to just a hair under 27 inches with me being a 26 inch draw length. 65-68 pounds out of the PSE EVL 32 and the total arrow weight should be around 412-413 grains at about 14.3-14.5% FOC. First year truly bow hunting and I would think that’s a pretty solid arrow with a 100 grain head. If I decide that I’m feeling froggy and want to jump, I’ll go to a 125 grain head.
Your common sense approach to archery is a breath of fresh air in a time when people are eager to jump on the bandwagon of the latest fad. Love your videos. Please keep them coming.
My dad shot heavy broadheads from his compound bow in the 80s and 90s. Focusing on Arrow weight isn't a fad we are just now realizing that the push for everyone to shoot light arrows and 100gr heads wasn't good advice. I think most people would do great just by going to a 150gr head and keeping the rest of their arrow the same.
Easton's site has a FOC section, and it states "Generally, for target archery, an F.O.C. range of 7-15% indoors, and 10-15% outdoors, will fly with good stability, optimal momentum, and accurate trajectory from 0-90 meters. Past this range can cause vertical dispersion at longer distances, especially with lower overall mass arrows." For Hunting they recommend 10% - 15% but it doesn't take much to get to 18% - 20% which won't stop at any bone you happen to hit.
I think mechanical heads were the worst thing any of us could be shooting. Next to that the broadhead weights being to light was also no good. I have had plenty of full pass-through shots with a sharp Montec G5 but none hit heavy bone.
Gonna piss off the ranch 🧚♀️ fanboys with this one! 😂
Ranch Fairy actually knows his stuff.
@@Thisshitcrazybruh He's a buffoon.
@@russelllangworthy8855 I’m not gonna deny that, but if you take his advice with a grain of salt, there’s a lot to learn from him.
@@Thisshitcrazybruh I would guess I've been bowhunting longer than he's been alive. I doubt that he has any information that I'm not familiar with.
@@russelllangworthy8855 Well, not all of us have several decades of experience. I’m only 23, and I’m coming off the speed bow craze, so his ideas are useful to a young buck like me. I am curious what arrow setup you use though. I’m big on gleaning advice from old timers.
I shoot a 29" 500 spine with 250 grain up front out of a 44 lb recurve. With my shafts at 7.5 gpi I get a total weight of 485 and a doc of 22 percent. I tune my bow/arrow combo at point on at 25 yds and hold my shots to 30 yds. I love the the flight of the cut on contact head and the field points. At my draw at 28" it passes through deer and a few sheep as long as I keep it ethical. Love it go shoot what you enjoy.😀
The Ranch Fairy is right... when it comes to what he 'specializes'. Which is pigs at 20-25 yards. Saying you need that same 650gr pig arrow to kill a deer is crazy. Out west people shoot 60 yards at animals. The difference between ranging a deer at 40 and shooting him at 45 yards can be a clean miss with heavy arrows. Trajectory is more important that people know. I wish someone would talk more about it... oh wait you did and you're right!
I wondered if the RF (shoot adult arrows) would be mentioned. I was thinking the same thing as you. Guys have jumped on the RF arrow wagon and haven't considered that RF has a ranch in Texas and hunts hogs from treestands at known distances. So the loss of speed from high FOC arrows is not an issue. Plus the extra FOC on hogs is a necessity. But hunting deer at unknown yardages, the archer should seek to find the balance between arrow weight and speed to get the best of both.
@@halfstep67 I'm surprised how many sheep have followed the RF into the heavy arrow thing. I guess create a youtube channel, yell at people, tell them thier wrong and Im right and laugh at the camera. I guess that's all it takes to create a following of sheep.
It was also the same with the Ashby reports. African animals over watering holes or other more guided hunts. Definitely all shots under 25 yard. Known yardages, tested shot angles, etc.
@@acanuck3267 Once the arrow leaves the bow, two things are required. First it must get to the target and then into/thru the target. Some guys get hung up on the into/thru the target and never consider that the arrow must get to the target first. Even though RF is right about some things, it is causing guys to fix problems that they don't have. And this itself becomes a problem.
I don't follow Ranch Fairy much but I can't recall him saying one needs a 650gr arrow w/19% foc to breach deer bone. I believe he has mentioned it's not required for deer bone and that the 650/19 is for high density bone. Deer do not fall into the high density category. The Ashby reports relay the same.
Heavy arrows have been around since arrows became a thing, 60k to 70k years ago in Africa where they were made from; wood, stone and bone. It's not until recently that fast/light have come onto the scene and it's nothing more than a marketing scheme for the sake of generating revenue.
Folks like to focus on the weight/FOC component of the 12 Factors of Penetration. If you're familiar you'll note FOC/weight is #3 on the list. The list is organized from most important, #1, to least important, #12.
Structural integrity and perfect arrow flight are #1 and #2. #3, FOC, is a byproduct of #1, it just happens.
There are a lot of misconceptions out there even by folks who shoot more lethal/ increased weight/ higher foc arrows.
My suggestion is to follow the Ashby Foundation on UA-cam and FB as well as Lethal Podcast on your favorite podcast app. One of the guys from Lethal Podcast frequents the Heavy Arrow Hunt Club FB page. There are a lot of very knowledgeable individuals on that FB page. I'd recommend folks follow that page.
I don’t understand why you had the arrows cut to 1-2 inches OVER your draw length. If you’re interested in increasing your FOC you should be cutting the arrow shaft as short as you can. These will keep you in a lower spine shaft and reduce the amount of potential Windrift on that shaft. If you’re worried after cutting your hand with a short shaft I’d suggest trying. If you’re running into issues with your hand being in front of the arrow you really need to look at your archery form and grip. With proper grip it’s impossible to cut your hand. My draw length is 28.5-29” and my arrow shafts are cut to 27-28”.
Yeah I agree that trying to get a high FOC and then ending up with a heavy arrow isn't what I want. I'm a little older now and I don't shoot a 70lb draw weight any more. I have a 29" draw length and 60lb draw weight with just 100 grain B3 Exoskeletal 3 blade broadhead and I just shot a black bear. I got a pass through and the arrow hit a rock and damaged the broadhead. I've done the same with deer to. I'd rather have higher speed myself.
THANK YOU! Just got back into archery a few months ago after a 20 year hiatus. I shoot an elite envision at 78lbs 30" draw and paper tuning this video confirmed my gut instincts and my paper tuning evidence. THANKS
That’s why I use victory riptko. A 250 spine is 9 gpi. That’s lighter than your 300 spine.
There's always a solution if you are determined to find it.
I got 19% FOC using 250 spine Rip TKO using 100 grain insert, and 125 grain broadhead. It really wasn’t too difficult to achieve. The total weight was 508 grains with 178 FPS.
Never understood the trajectory argument. It seems lazy especially when potential lethality/penetration is sacrificed in order to obtain it. Learn to properly estimate distances and carry a rangefinder. Also, once set up range landmarks/trees/bushes and set up a mental range card. To dang easy.
Worrying about a $30-$40 arrow syatem seems silly when considering what you're giving up and the money we spend on everything else related to archery hunting.
As archery hunters we should be encouraging lethality not discouraging against it.
Two words. Walking animals.
@@Thisshitcrazybruh and? Please elaborate.
@@mjkeat When you’re at full draw, and an animal is walking, you don’t wanna worry about 5 yards being the difference between a hit and a miss.
@@Thisshitcrazybruh that's why you learn to judge distance. Sacrificing the benefits of a more lethal arrow system for flatter trajectory is putting a bandaid on the real issue at hand.
@@Thisshitcrazybruh the same can be said about those who throw on a mechanical because they can't tune a bow.
Been listening to the Ranchfairy for a couple years now and he makes all the right sense and he's not lying. Even been tinkering with and shooting the heaviest stuff I could get away with COMFORTABLY and I've had a blast doing it the whole time. Before this video even came out I've already built a new arrow and have already dropped 65 grains off last years hunting setup. Speed is not everything, but neither are numbers on their own. I really think moderation is key.
True. Also, he has the data (incl. radar) & anecdotal evidence to back it up. Like the lady shooting a 34# bow killing an Asiatic Water Buffalo with a frontal shot.
Like your vids but view it a little differently, The FOC concept was Initially gear toward trad bows.
As of late compound guys have also started experimenting with it as well.
I absolutely agree that the extreme FOC isn’t necessary in all situations and like most everything gets blown out of proportion.
Ashby really focused on large game animals such as Cape buffalo.
However as a trad guy I have no trouble building a 18% to 25% foc arrow and maintaining acceptable trajectory within 20-25 yard from a 45lb@30” recurve.
I just don’t see a 600gr plus arrow being a issue for a compound at what should be typical bow hunting distances, I have shot 650gr arrows from my recurve and while it was a little more trajectory than I like as an instinctive shooter it was doable.
In years past guys were shooting aluminum Xx75’s that are quite heavy from 200fps compounds and doing just fine. Not to mention the traditional guys.
In my opinion the issue is the mindset of archers now days. which has been promoted by the archery industry. For years it’s been all about bow speed now it’s flipped to FOC and arrow penetration. it’s all just a tactic to sell product. As archers we love keeping up with the latest and best gear. It’s how the compound world thrives.Nothing wrong with that, it’s just that way it is.
Point being and how it all comes together is guys wanting speed on one hand and penetration on the other in order to take shots at much farther distances than we should as a bowhunter.
A lot of issues would go away if companies would prompted learning how to get close and not how fat you can shoot but that would mean they couldn’t sell product so that’s a no go.
Bow hunters should strive more on being a woodsman than gear junkies.
Too many of us want the ease of rifle performance but yet be called a bowhunter.
It took me going from shooting a compound for many years to a trad bow to truly understanding the art of being a bow hunter.
If I were hunting with a muzzleloader with no sights I would need to get a lot closer than I would with a sub moa scoped rifle. Hunting with trad bows is a completely different game than hunting with a modern compound. I have a 30" draw which allows an energy advantage over some.
I've shot deer as close as 14 yards and as far as 38 yards and both felt equally rewarding.
The equipment and the archers ability to consistently shoot accurately coupled with the hunters ability to read the animals behavior/body language and all other conditions, other animals presents, how much noise is in that area ( wind, bugs, birds, etc.).
It wasn't that long ago that trad archers would talk of string jumping or animals just taking a step as enough reason to call 40 yards to far for a compound shot on a deer but when the math was done my compound gets that arrow to 40 yards as fast as any trad shooting to
25 yards and just as accurately if not more accurately with more energy.
If one chooses to limit themselves for the challenge so be it.
If one chooses to acquire more skill and decrease their limitations so be it.
Where does this statement archery is about getting close come from?
Just sit back & enjoy it Mr. Trad Archer. The thing about the FOC is compound hunters are discovering what trad bowmen already know. You all have been killing large animals with low poundage bow with heavy arrows with high FOC stone heads for centuries. Then, switched to metal heads single bevel & double bevel cut on contact heads.
Target.FITA shooters have been shooting 8-12% FOC for a long time.
PS I shot Orange XX75 & camo XX 78s both with 125gr heads. Back in the day. Easton still makes camo XX75s.
Your analysis was spot on and needed to be said. I wish the RF cult followers could accept that heavy arrows have their advantages and disadvantages, and are nothing new to the world of archery. I think people just like to say Dr Ashby said blah blah out of one side of their mouth, while insulting the educational system and those with high degrees out of the other. So funny. Great content
I firmly believe people should focus more on tuning for accuracy and consistency, because at the end of the day, your solid steel arrow tipped with a 10 pound tungsten broadhead, that you’ve been shooting through block walls, doesn’t mean jack when you shoot the dirt below the deer…..
I agree, every combination has its place...is the RF a cult? I don't know, but years ago a sub 200fps compound, with aluminum arrows around 550grains, sure did a good job. Oh, and not to mention the trad guys who killed everything with even lower speeds. Seems like "speed" has been advertised to sell, typical commercialism. Out to 40yds, which seems to be the max distance for most "youtubers" polled, does any of it really matter?
This was a really go video. Got me thinking. Where I hunt, every time I get in a tree I got a chance to get a bear, hog or a deer and that dictates my gear whether it's a bow or rifle. I don't need a freight train go through a deer but a hog or a big bear.. I may. That's why if I take the rifle out, it'll be the 300 Win Mag vs the 30-30 I like to use if I'm in a deer only location. The 300 may be overkill on a 120 lb Georgia buck... But not on a 300lb bear.
Whatever works for each person should be the end of the conversation.
Thanks for providing your excellent videos! I appreciate how you explain everything simply, and make it easy to understand .
I personally understand why FOC is a thing but agree that there are other things much more important to get right. For me a "standard" arrow with "perfect" arrow flight is more valuable than a heavy, high FOC arrow not flying perfect. I think people get caught up in the heavy arrow, high FOC thing for the wrong reasons. It has its place but you need to be clear on your objectives as to why you require such an arrow build.
Always appreciate your input, especially thanking the "Big Guy". You have a great argument and good experience reflected in your narrative, which is valuable. Keep up the great vids, good stuff and really appreciated the one on the Ez V bow sight you did, thanks.
What ever paper tunes for a straight arrow through paper!!! I do like a 15 percent foc arrow now as it feels to me like a nice weight arrow also the flight!! Little bit of arrow weight makes for a quiet and less stress on the bow limbs.
It was serendipitous that I built a .300 spine Victory RIP XV arrow with 15% FOC with a total arrow weight of 380 - 390 grains (depending on whether I use a light nock or not) to match my previous Easton Axis .400 spine arrows that weight 385 grains. My arrows shoot between 271 fps to 285 fps depending on which bow I'm using.
This has been my experience as well. I tried out the Ranch Fairy test kit and struggled to get the heavier arrows to tune. My 60 lb. VXR, 28" draw absolutely LOVES Easton Axis 340s with 200 gr. up front & 38 out back for roughly 12% FOC. Total weight 505 gr. on average. Now that we're in the off season I may mess with the RF test kit again, but honestly the pin gaps on my current Axis are about all I desire. I can't imagine what my pin gaps would look like at 19% FOC. I am going to switch out to the 65 lb. mods, so we'll see what that does to pin gaps.
Agree. Been down this road. I have a 30” draw. Anything between 400 - 500 grains with a cut on contact heads will get it done over and over. Trying to build a “bone crushing” arrow is a fool’s errand. I’d much rather an easily tuned, flat shooting and perfect flying arrow at decent speeds.
Gonna stick with Dr. Ashby on this one.
Same here
@@Outdoor-Tactics I am currently building new arrows. 70lbs and 29inches. 300 spine plus 75 insert plus 175 grain head - and 16% FOC. Anymore weight and I need to move down to 250 spine, heavier gpi and even less FOC. I end up shooting a spear not an arrow. I think there is a reason easton designers recommend 10-15% FOC
@African. It is your setup with your money :) the Ashby Foundation's channel emphasizes that the build has to match a comfortable trajectory for you. Furthermore, in the list of factors from highest to lowest, FOC is 3rd and total arrow weight is 12th (Director, Troy Fowler had to remind me to put FOC in its place). I would like to know if you have considered options such as lighter shafts (Gold Tip Velocity), lighter fletching (Q2i, feathers), and lighter nocks (GT Acculite, black Eagle micro)? In many cases, these options can decrease cost, decrease arrow weight/flatten trajectory, and increase FOC dramatically!
I dont agree with a lot of what he says besides structural integrity being #1. Lot of what he says defies the laws of physics.
100% agree. Im blowing through everything including both scapula with my 525 grain arrow going 285 and fixed blade. 175grn total up front no idea what my foc is and my arrow flight is perfect. Also not lobbing logs.
So you have a 350 gr shaft?
@@conradsmith6037 yup black eagle rampage 250 spine cut to 28 and some change. 74lb 30.5 inch draw.
@@conradsmith6037 10.7 grain per inch 10 grain for the nock 26 for the fletching 50 grain hit insert and 125 grain point.
First of all I love your channel and am glad I found it. BUT... I just don't get the big deal about loss of trajectory. Either use a multi pin sight and a rangefinder, A slider and a rangefinder or learn to judge distance like I have over the years. Yes I can get within a yard on most distances out to 30 yards. It's not that hard to do and if you don't know where your arrow is gonna hit out to 30 yards then you shouldn't be out there to begin with. I think you probably could have done this video in less time by just stating to not go overboard in either direction. A super lightweight arrow(low foc) can get to the target faster with less drop but isn't gonna do much damage on arrival possibly wounding game whereas a super heavy arrow( high foc) will do tremendous damage but only if it hits the target. Heavier arrows do quiet down the shot though.
Not true high foc alone does not have better penetration its a myth. If your getting better penetration with higher foc it's only because it helped stabilized arrow flight. In which case the bow is out of tune. High foc is more important for traditional bows with limited tuning options. You can prove this to yourself very easily by building two identical arrows with the only difference being one is high foc and one is not. Note it is also important the bow is perfectly tuned. High foc does not increase penetration. Factors like total mass, broadhead design, and sharpness, along with perfect arrow flight are Factors that will increase or decrease penetration, not foc. Also archery is a balancing act. Traditional bow hunter extream foc and super heavy arrows makes all the sense in the world.
@@jhuntley575 high foc does aid in penetration bud. The weight in the front pulls the rest of the arrow with it, and is much easier than the back of the arrow trying to push. Its simple physics
@@mikeguy9668
High F.O.C. is not always needed.
I have a 30" draw and can put my 300 spine 415gr. arrow with
10% f.o.c. deep if not through any animal in N. America.
There are many variables that dictate an archers optimal set up.
Many Variables.
@@jowho9992 and there are many variables that will stop your arrow in its tracks where a heavier and higher foc arrow will keep going. Alot of things aren't always "needed" but are sure nice to have when things get hairy
@@mikeguy9668
Would you like to recommend the correct draw weight to be used as well?
Why stop there? Tell us the max distance and the minimum level of consistent accuracy that should be allowed.
I suppose the 10 year old boy and the 12 year old girl that I witnessed on YT easily arrowing and killing deer would somehow be an exception to your opinions.
Or would they?
Can you F.O.C. your way through that?
Now it's getting hairy.🎯
Good video explaining everything. Hit on a lot of what everyone will realize when they get into it and start tinkering a bit.
I think the main take away from this video and any of the high FOC videos is that there is a middle ground in all of this. RF is on the extreme end of the spectrum and is probably overkill for most people. If you have an arrow that flies straight and you can hit targets consistently with a sharp broadhead, you should be fine.
Plus, that High Country is a straight up KILLING MACHINE. 😁
I’m currently shooting a black eagle carnivore 350 7.5 gpi with 100 grain insert and 125 tip. About 453 grains total 20.2% foc. If I add a lighted knock 24 grains it drops to 17.75 foc and about 470 grains total. 60lbs at 28.5” draw length. 27” arrow. The key to foc is getting a light gpi arrow. Field tips fly perfect I may have to switch once I try to make broadheads fly true.
I have arrow builds at 8, 15, 20 and 25% FOC. I actually find the high FOC arrows tune easier. My favorite build is the 15% FOC arrow. It offers the best balance of everything very well for me.
Very informative and logically explained, thank you! I would venture the following; a 'heavy adult arrow' for a 40# DW with between 14-17 FOC bow might end up TAW of 410-450gn being the arrow that gives that particular setup a straight flying and adequately penetrating arrow, whereas on a 60-65# DW with between 14-17 FOC bow might end up TAW of 490-570gn. I agree and think that FOC should NOT be the ONLY consideration and that a well balanced setup with a matched and tuned bow/arrow setup would likely be a very efficient short and longer distance (+/- 45yrds) hunting combination. There is something to say though for heavier arrows = better penetration.
Interesting conversation. Thanks for the info as always!
Outdoors Allie aren’t you getting a solid FOC % with you smaller draw length without trying? Assuming you aren’t using fmj’s anymore...
I use the xtorsion 350 spine 90 grain insert and 100grain iron will 28.5 534 grain total weight 70lb bow
I have a 30” draw and 28” sirius .250 spine arrows / 275 grains up front / 595 total grains and 20% FOC / Easy peasy…. It really isn’t that hard with inserts. I personally followed the Ranch Fairies guide and that arrow with that weight up front just went Womp. I can’t explain it and i don’t know if it’s right or if it’s wrong but they are darts. I makes absolutely no sense to me lol and i’m probably way over board for whitetail inside 40 yards but it works.
I'm all about that happy medium. Current build is 350 spine Vforce, 125 gr QAD Exodus, standard insert and FACT weights. Haven't decided if the 20 or 50 grain weights fly better but I'll either be at 455 grains and 15% or 485 grains and 17%. I'm really liking the FACT weights because I can change my point weight easily whenever I want to.
You k ow what’s great my draw length is 28” I’m shooting a 300 spine 27” arrow with 100 grains of brass and 100 grain head. Total weight is 512grains and 16% foc
You should try Firenock aeroweave arrows. They are among the best for flight and strength. The owner of Firenock is a retired nuclear physicist who does archery for fun.
Good knowledge!!
My arrows are 25.5 with a 95gn insert with sleeve, 125 heads, 14 gn nocks, 462 total grain with 21.9999 foc (I was not trying to get that high foc) 🤷🏽♂️
Bow set up is 27.5 draw at 70 pounds. And from 20 to 100 yards arrows flight perfecto hitting the target with a amazing grouping. Passing through pigs like nobody’s business!!!
Hey Nate. You know where I stand. With my 32" DL, with a standard uncut arrow, 300 spine (9.3 gpi) and 150 Stingers with a standard insert, my total arrow weight is 515, which is 10.5 FOC. If I go higher FOC, I might as well use a tennis racket, because I'll be lobbing those arrows towards my target. So you are a 31" DL. I know the Energy 35 and the Result fit you well. How has it worked out with the KURE that only goes to 30". Do you feel the difference between the two?
The Kure at full letoff legally gets to 30.5". I then work some magic to get another 1/4" out of it and end up with 30.75" draw. Not too shabby. Ends up feeling REALLY good in the end and I don't mind it being a fuzz short for a hunting bow as it just takes off the edge of a draw length that's too long when I'm cold and out of shape. 🤣
@@averagejackarchery do you also cheat a bit with a longer D-loop?
@@robstofberg1 No. I haven't cheated that hard in years! Lol! Some bows feel better shorter and some longer.
It appears from listening to you that your primary focus in this video is hunting arrows. I am not a hunter. I use a Solution SS set to 54.5 lbs with 90% let off. You seemed to talk down about a 400 spine arrow. The problem for me is every spine chart from at least 3 arrow manufacturers tell me (28.5 " draw length) to use a 400 spine. Typically I am shooting indoors at 20 - 30 yards with a focus on target archery.
I have been using Black Eagle Outlaw arrows, 400 spine, 100gn tip, 11gn insert, 3/5" cross bow bolt vanes with a left twist. Total arrow weight 384 +/- grains.
Given my description above, what are your thoughts about my arrows? Is there any advantages to my using a heavier arrow? Given what I described is FOC even an issue? Thanks
New subscriber. Great video, as usual. I've been shooting a bow longer than some of the posters here have been alive, so I've seen/heard it all. My opinion is that the "extreme" FOC thing is similar to the BDC reticle in hunting scopes: it's a solution to a problem that really doesn't exist. I'm not saying a 20% FOC arrow won't penetrate better than a 10% FOC arrow, but it's going to be minimal (or at least redundant) in most applications. Again, JMO.
well jus t like a rifle bullet , weight is constant velocity is not, a light arrow depends on velocity to preform , which is fine if one is shooting a wheelie bow.
foc allows for greater penetration through bone that is a fact , not to mention the failure of aluminum inserts in hunting arrows.
i have been shooting recurves and long bows for over 60 yrs now and i can tell you with a recurve high foc does make for cleaner kills and better penetration .
Bone breaking threshold is a function of total arrow weight, irrespective of FOC. Let that sink in, then make your arrows fly perfect and don’t worry about the FOC number
not totally true, lol. but I get where your coming from. a throwing dart is all weight forward and it doesnt get much help from the back half pushing, lol. a heavy arrow is only a help if it is stiff enough or spined enough push straight through.
55 lb 27 draw 370 g r w trick broad head 25 yards no trouble having 2 holes
I haven't chased the magic numbers either. 485 gr arrow or so, 100gr insert gets foc to about 15% super sharp cut on contact head gets the job done. Troy is also taking short shots at known ranges on really big pigs hence the extra large arrows and disdain for mechanical heads.
Put 3 x 2inch feathers and standard nock on the rear.....FOC goes up
My motto has always been “FOC outta here with the FOC!” Great video!
nice
Same
My 502gr Axis at 14% FOC group and penetrate just as good as the 502gr Quantums that are 18.9%. FOC definitely helps with arrow flight and stability, particularly at distance, but its not some new magic. Guys that convince them selves they need 20%+ foc and some crazy 600gr+ arrow to get pass through within 30 yards blow my mind! To each their own I guess. I imagine if they gun hunt its nothing less than a .45-70 or .50bmg to get the job done as well, just in case you need a "plan b" shot..
I got the pleasure of coming into compound bow archery in the last year and have been absorbing as much info as I can. It can be overwhelming but knowledge is power. I think for deer (blacktails where I am from) it's not as big of an issue. Elk on the other hand I think it's worth considering at least. These animals are huge. See Warb from THP endo an elk says a lot. That animal was dead within 30yds. An arrow that is gonna fly straight and a broadhead that will perform I think is probably the biggest thing to look at overall
I get it I got 19 % but I shoot 27 inch arrow but I think most time you don't need to put a lot into it I feel biggest thing is that fixed broadheads and the fact you got good arrow weight I have 515 grain arrow and I don't like 400 grain arrow seems to light I lost interest in speed since shots under 25 yards always enjoy watching your stuff
i like a 13 to 15 foc 415 to 438 gr arrows what works good for me deer hogs.i think thats a good ballance not crazy heavy or crazy high foc.i always run feathers so naturaly that boost foc some and i only run 50gr brass inserts sometimes 50gr inserts with 23gr screw in weight and 100gr broadheads
Archery is getting the arrow to the target, bowhunting is killing animals through penetration and cutting vital organs. You get to choose, archery or being a lethal bowhunter in all situation.
I will say this as far as traditional archery. I've found that if I keep my arrows cut as short as possible, and get a spine stiff enough to handle 300 up front to tune it, I saw far less shaft flex using slow mo video on impact then I did a weaker shaft with less weight. I don't think its so much the foc per say but more so the less flexible shaft to rob efficiently do to flex on impact. You see it when you miss as well the difference being getting and arrow stuck in the ground and digging an arrow out of the ground. Foc isn't the be all end all. Its the stiffer shaft in my opinion
Wasn’t FOC and all the ashby stuff specific to african longbow hunters? Heavy arrows for heavy 70+ longbows makes sense.
I feel like you know what my next video is going to be....
Open up a can of worms in the traditional world of bow hunting. Frankly it is over due. I see sooo many videos of trad hunters making awful wounding hits on animals. Actually thats kind of what the trad world has been known for, bad shots.
For me FOC does matter. I’m a shorter guy with a shorter draw length 27” and a 58-60 DW. My current set up is around 500 grains and 16% FOC. I’m hoping to bump up about 25 grains or so which will get me closer to 18%. The increase arrow weight and FOC hasn’t affected my trajectory too much. I can definitely live with it. I want maximum penetration and a short tracking job. My deer this year didn’t even know it had been shot. It just walked off and fell over in about 20 yards. For whitetail I wouldn’t shoot over 40 yards and a more realistic yardage is 30 or less.
You said you hardly ever wound deer, but I think it's because of your long draw length. Smaller guys like me with shorter draw lengths need a little help with arrow design. I have followed the general guidelines and stuck monsters, but didn't kill them. I didn't get enough penetration. I'm currently running 550 gr GT Airstrikes with 284 grains up front. It comes out to roughly 20% foc. With a single bevel up front, there is no longer a wounding issue for me.
You should also take the time and actually measure the foc on the bench. I use the AMO standard (which is the same as the Ashby report), and the measurements differ from the calculators. Just a thought. As always, love the content. Keep it up boss!
The goal is maximum penetration (i.e., pass-through). Troy Fowler preaches high FOC, perfect arrow flight, & broadheads that will cause maximum damage when things don't go exactly as planned. If you can achieve the ultimate goal without building a 550gr/19%+ arrow, then I say go for it. However, I don't want to waste precious few moments wondering if my arrow will get the job done when my only shot is a quartering-in & I'll have to pound the shoulder. I want to know that I'm sending a rocket through the hard stuff. Pass-through shots are the goal, but if your not equipped to pass through the hardest stuff an animal's got--TWICE--, then you're not equipped.
I also shoot the victory v-force 300 spine arrows. I use the standard inserts and a 25grn insert weight. My arrows are 30.5", 478 grns and the foc is 13%. I bot the Victory RIP they are a smaller Dia and weigh less but a 60grn insert and the foc is at 15% but weigh 452grns. They hit harder than the outher ones but I would take eather arrow out hunting. I have not had any issues tuning any of the arrows I have. If I was going to hunt a moose or a rhino I think I would like a heavier arrow. But for around Washington state my arrows do just fine.
I’ve often wondered if f.o.c. was critical or not.
Arrows that serve my need always come in 11-12% f.o.c. and 6.5-7 grains per lb.
🤯 this is how my head felt while watching this video.
When I build arrows for bowhunters, and they say they want a higher FOC, I use a ratio of whatever the weight of the vanes, wrap or nock is, I triple that weight up front. Ex.: my arrows weigh 52 grains for the vanes, wrap and nock. So I have a 100 grain head & a 50 grain insert. This allows me to have a 13% FOC. Too much weight does exactly what you say, it decreases trajectory and you need to add bow weight. Great content, keep up the great work, 👍🙏🏹
That's an excellent piece of math advice! I'm definitely stealing that one. Thanks!
@@averagejackarchery Seems that may be a good starting place to check your arrow tune. I think the bottom line is the arrow needs to fly straight.
Shooting a gold hunter 340 spine 28 inch carbon to carbon weighting 442 grains 11% moving at 280 fps shooting from 68 lbs at 28.5 draw length. I shoot rage hyperdermic plus p blow thur deer shoulders even at 50 yards.
So where does (not necessarily spine stiffness) arrow density material come into this conversation? Such as using a FMJ verse a carbon? If the rigidity/density of the arrow is able to maintain integrity at hitting solid mass (bone for example), how does this influence the FOC debate? Being that one would expect a FMJ arrow to maintain structural integrity more than a densely spined carbon arrow? Thanks!
I’m one of those short draw guys I’m at 27’ draw on a TRIAX cranked to 60 lbs I’m more interested in speed I feel my 4 mm FMJ’s and Carbon Injexions with 100 grain tips aae max stealth vanes give me enough punch to kill what I hunt white tail and coyotes here in mass
I do want to try the new Easton Axis 4 mm when they become available as they are spec’d at 7.4 goo for 400 spine which is lighter than both the fmjs and Carbon Injexions so I’m hoping to get more out of my sight for 3 d shoots
I have the same bow at almost the same draw and length, 27.5 draw and 62lbs draw. My last buck I killed straight passed thru the spine and knicked the femoral artery, with rage hypodermics. I did the calculation, my foc is only at about 7-8%. I’m not concerned and I won’t be changing it.
Olympic/FITA archers cares about FOC too. Although, they use an 8-12% FOC. That is why you see target field tips with break off weights. The common manufactures' suggestion for hunting arrows is 12-16%.
With my Mathews I am shooting a 29.5 inch FMJ with 100g broadhead an overall weight of 490 grain at 290fps and it devastates anything in front of it. The compound can be adjusted to accept a wide variety of arrow builds. The dynamics change some AND the difference becomes more apparent to me when you go to traditional.. I step to my recurve and drop to 180 to 190fps 50lb draw and a 29in draw I am shooting trad carbons and have 200g up front. Where the adjustability of the bow is non existent tuning the arrow becomes vital. My arrows come in 589g for me to gain my best performance. If I were to change arrow brands I have to start my arrow development all over again and possibly need a different spine, length and possible even a different broadhead.
Makes sense that with a slower arrow out of a trad bow the weight up front can be more. when a higher speed compound bow pushes the nock thru the static heavy head - you need lots more spine to stop it folding in half - more spine = more gpi as Jack said. Slower arrows rely more on momentum than kinetic energy - I like momentum above kinetic any day - but with compounds the balance may be a tad different?
I've killed a lot of deer with a 400 total grain arrow using a mechanical. 29in draw, 63lbs.I have no idea what my foc is, but it kills whitetails. Im up to 70lbs now with a 400 total grain arrow.
I don't care what my FOC is either.
Easton ( Made In USA!) Hexx 260 full length, 200 grain head, std insert, 3 x 3"feathers and Nockturnal (I know, but...)
@ 30.5 DL. 60 lbs
I tested for accuracy, trajectory, and noise reduction, ended up here mainly because 40 yards is my favorite practice distance, and 250 grain heads rainbowed too much and wiped the smile from my face. Bullet holes thru paper and bareshaft @ 40 is plumb and plumb. No idea what my foc, total weight, or arrow speed is- it doesn't matter. The bow and the Indian behind it like this setup👍👍is
YMMV
I have shot a 400 gr. total weight arrow with only a 90 gr. Muzzy on the front for decades, only 9% FOC, just over 300fps, 90lbs. KE. Flies great and punches through deer. Fads will come and go. Speed and KE will always kill better at all hunting distances.
Sounds like you’re more concerned with speed and trajectory. I have not experienced the trajectory issue you’re talking about in this video. I built a high foc arrow out of curiosity. I went from shooting 485 grain to a 690 grain arrow. My 20 and 30 yard pins did not change. I did have to lower my 40 yard pin but nothing drastic. 28 1/2 “ draw and 70 pound draw weight. Maybe for people shooting 60 pound draw weights and lower, trajectory becomes an issue and if that’s the case then the lower the draw weight the lighter the arrow needs to be to keep the trajectory somewhat level and the speed up.
Jack, two years ago per your "Light to Heavy" video, your favorite hunting arrow setup was GoldTip XT Hunter 300 total around 550gr. but here in this video you want to VForce at 485gr. Why did you switch arrows and why did you drop to 485gr setup? Thanks for all your info
Great question! So I shot GT arrows for YEARS for everything. Hunting, 3D, indoor, etc. Never had a problem with them. But the one thing I didn't like, and it's an all company problem not just a GT problem, was the dinky little inserts that come stock with their shafts. Now, of all the dinky little inserts the GT's were the best holding, but still not ideal. So I used their brass or steel inserts which were much beefier and gripped really well. The weight just wasn't ideal for trajectory/speed at 550ish grains past 25 yards once I left the hunting woods. When I discovered Victory, their stock inserts were (still are) the biggest and heaviest in the industry, offered excellent adhesion and integrity, and since it wasn't 100 grains of brass, it lowered my overall weight from 100 to 22 grain inserts. Plus, their shafts ended up being cheaper for the same build quality so I ended up using them the past few years!
Keep playing with my setups but I've settled in around 415 gr at 27 in with 55# draw. My FOC is around 12%. I'm over spined using Maxima Blu Rz 350 instead of 250's but arrows fly well. Have 150 grains up front. Haven't tried it on a whitetail yet. I can only assume it will get excellent penetration at this point.
Don’t know if you check this. Switching from Rage to Aero 1 fixed blade heads and was thinking more front weight is needed for tuning. Decided I’d like to stay middle of the road though (everything in moderation is a good life rule). Shooting a Mathews Traverse 31/63-65 - I think keeping fps near 280 is fast enough but great to tune. Going with BEA carnivores 30.5” with probably 75-100gr inserts plus 125gr head (200-225 up front) with either 3 Rayzrs or 4 Heat vanes and a lighted nock. Would you suggest 300 or 250s? Do you think the 20yd bare shaft parallel to fletched (or RF bare paper) is a good way to pick? I don’t want yo have paralysis by over analysis but also don’t want to not get pass throughs ever again (300lb buck, 15yds, Mathews switchback xt 30/70 with 29” CX weighing 400gr with Hypodermic resulted in a single hole and tattooed offside ribs inside). May still shoot a Trypan w the new set up but only if I can’t get fixed blades perfectly flying. Would love to hear your thoughts. Anything over 15% is just crazy for us 31DL so I was thinking 12-15% would still be fast enough and hit hard enough. Picking the shaft spine is my only sticking point I think (have 2 300s and 2 250s and using FOBs are fletching right now). Thanks for your help. Btw - which lighted nicks do you prefer? I’d guess Lumenock since they’re Bohning nocks like Victory that you liked but couldn’t find a video.
Agree with everything you said. However to be fair high FOC systems can be easily obtained these days with very light GPI high modulus shafts.
I got pretty lucky with my setup. I’m shooting a 300 spine arrow at 28 inches with a 100 grain insert and 100 grain point at 19.8% foc with a total weight of 495 grains. I haven’t shot them through a chronograph yet but I’m a 28 1/2 inch draw length at 65 pounds out of a bow tech rpm 360.
Made sense to me, shoot a 578 grain arrow, 100 grain insert, 125 grain magnus Broad head, victory 300. 55 pounds. 15.4 FOC. Glad I didn't chase 19. Good job! I found the more I shoot good arrow flight the better archer I become.
You’re still shooting an “adult arrow” regardless of FOC %
I only shoot 52 lbs due to an old neck injury. I've killed more elk than I can could with 52lbs and Magnus 2 blade. What draw length are you can I ask?
@@allannesss7782 , I haven't bought a bow in so long I don't remember. I have a Matthews MQ 32, still a good bow!
We are shooting the exact same setup in grains except I am shooting 75 insert and 150 magnus buzzcuts out of a 65lb bow. It gets the job done!
If you're not hunting and trying to kill something but instead only care about target shooting then yes. Extreme FOC is for PENETRATION not max arrow flight even though a high foc helps the arrow fly nicer and u can use smaller fletchings
Awesome video. I'm right there with you. I'm more worried about overall weight of the arrow. I'm shooting Gold Tip Hunter XT 340 arrow with a 50gr insert and a 100gr Shwacker #207 broadheads. (Shoot Me. I like'm. Lol.) With their 7gr 2in Rapt-X vanes and a 25g Nocturnal Nock. So right at 536gr out of a 2007 Diamond Triumph at about 62lbs. Seems to shoot pretty good to me. Any recommendations would be helpful.
Low FOC isn't that hard to achieve. Carbon Express Predator 350 at 10 gpi cut to 27" C to C with standard vanes and lighted nock, and the standard 11 grain aluminum insert and 100 grain point puts you in the 420 weight range with a roughly 7.5% FOC.
Just doesn't stabilize fixed blade well, and has some serious impact paradox. So penetration may not be what you expected.
My experience is due to over the years and arrow manufacturers changing what arrows are on the market with different weights, and then the bow shops selling you arrows in what is convenient. So one time you get 9.1 gpi arrows and the next time 10 gpi arrows. And throw in some 9.6 gpi in the middle sometime.