This video is what I've been trying to teach some friends. I run a 27" arrow 300 spine but what helps with the spine is the 3 inch long ,120g Ethics insert. The 300 spine is just to get the arrow out of the bow. After that the arrow has to be the sharpest and strongest to get the penetration I need. Great videos.
I’d love to see you go on other hunting/archery podcast and debate with different opinions. It’s not common to have someone well versed in aerodynamics and physics who’s also an archer/bow hunter. There’s so much information out there it’s getting increasingly difficult to filter the true from the false
One big issue is to not fixate on one component they are all connected! I’d love to discuss this on podcast. In the future I’m going to try to do more physical testing as well. Thanks for watching!
@RanchFairy the debate is whether or not penetration is statistically the limitation to lethality. Yes, two holes are better than one. But at what cost?
@@TheArrowBuilder Ah ha! An arrow builder. And you say “statistically limiting”. Heck yeah. We sound like an educated man. Before we continue - I believe the answer will manifest itself: To be fair - you said the following. 1. Why two holes are better than one? In your own words. 2. Please define “cost”. Can you please add some context to #1 and #2?
@@RanchFairy By statistically limiting I mean - Is penetration "the" problem? Are more animals lost due to lack of penetration? Rarely do I hear about this from the average hunter shooting a fixed broadhead. In my personal life, online and from trackers what I hear about bad scenarios is shots too far back, high or low. Being accuracy, precision and cut size. For this discussion lets eliminate plain aiming in the wrong location. Not that it’s not a problem but you’ve done the work here and we’re in agreement. 1. Two holes are better than one in several different ways. First and foremost blood trials in general will be better on average, next the arrow can be recovered to make inferences on shot location and likely having another hole reduces the ability to hold cavity pressure (you’d know better than me). 2. Cost being trajectory, forgiveness in flight, time in flight, cut size/shape, and cost in the most usual form. Dollars. The weighting of that varies person to person and doesn't need dived into. See below for added detail. It got lengthy - feel free to email orders@thearrowbuilder.com if you feel like it. Personally, I account for probably 75% of Ashby's recommendations on any given build. However, there are areas that is often overlooked or seen to be swept under the rug. For example, he lays out a very critical caveat: “You Should Always Use The Heaviest Arrow Possible That Has A Trajectory That You Still Find Acceptable”. So, what should the hunter consider to be that acceptable trajectory? Well, that depends on the species targeted and the hunting conditions. Are you at a feeder with known yardages? Or are you a hunter hunting public land with unknown ranges 30 and in. If so, then I'd follow up asking the hunter being brutally honest with yourself. How well can you range? I've done this self-introspection and a lot of shooting.. It's not great, realistically I'm plus or minus 5 yds. Being that I target species at unknown range this is a huge concern for me. Did that animal pop out at 30 or 35 yards? Accuracy: Comparing two setups with a 5-yard range error on a whitetail at 30 yards for two setups. You’re shooting from 20' up in a tree saddle, estimate range at 30 place your 30 pin at an slightly quartering animal that is actually at 25. A fast 445 grain arrow at 294 fps or a heavy 650 grain arrow at 246 fps. The difference in shot location from those two setups in accuracy is approximately 1.5". An entire huge broadhead high. You probably know better than I do but let’s say a whitetails vitals are 10" to be generous and keep math simple. A 1.5" error on 10" was 15% less accurate to where you intended to range out the gate. An entire big cut broadhead high. Now, that's without other compounding factors. What is your shot precision with a broadhead out of a saddle at 25 yds? I'd say the average to good hunter would have a tough time getting sub 3" groups (larger with heads with poor flight characteristics). So worst case you're shooting as far off as 4.5" or 45% off from your intended shot location. I'd ask the question in this scenario - did we increase the odds of a "plan b" scenario hitting bone by reducing our accuracy? I'd say if you hit 4.5" high you'll find much more bone. Precision: Next, the other glaring contradiction in the report is a stating that arrow flight is number 1, then proceeding to recommend an unvented 3:1 ratio 2b broadhead with a very high capability to plane of course with any form error that is experienced in hunting scenarios. IE tree stand, saddle hunting, uneven footing, or just jitters. Capability of a broadhead to plane is directly related to velocity and the surface area of the broadhead. However, the reduction in velocity moving to a 3:1 unvented 200+grain head (even with velocity squared) still doesn't outweigh the gain reducing the length or adding vents into the head. Venting isn't my preferred method as it increases noise and reduces durability. However, reducing length is a viable option. I've shot a lot of broadheads now (I'd hate to count) and this proves to be true every time. All things equal (IE tolerances/spin) the larger the exposed area of blade on a broadhead the more unforgiving it will be. Again, did we increase the odds of a "plan b" scenario hitting bone by reducing our precision? Cut Size/Shape: I’ve seen this debated - but I still can’t logic my way into it not mattering. A larger cut or an extra blade can increase the likelihood of clipping something vital. At a sacrifice to penetration. I also can’t logic my way into a larger wound not producing more blood on the ground. Clearly, this can go too far. Too large of heads fly like crap. Huge mechanical take way to much energy/momentum. There’s a balance to be found here. I personally find there to be plenty of 1.68” cutting surface fixed broadheads to fly fantastic - even as fast speed at distance. Say Magnus Black Hornet or dozens of others I’ve shot. Time in Flight: We can use Ranch Fairy data from your velocity erosion video to do an example. At 30 yards it will take a 436-grain arrow (281 fps launch, 273 fps avg to 30 yds) around 330 milliseconds. A 718 grain out of the same setup will take around 410 milliseconds. This means that the arrow will arrive 25% later than the faster arrow. Now this is only the time for the arrow to get there, we need to deduct the amount of time it takes for the first sound of the bow to get there (1125.33 FPS) - which is .08 seconds. And the reaction time of say .08 as well (2x faster than a male sprinter). Taking this into account the animal (if it chooses to) has MINIMUM 50% more time to react to the 718 grain arrow at ONLY 30 yards. This is not irrelevant. Especially because gravity accelerates and animal with time. If you think that an animal won't react more given 50% more time you're on more crack than these whitetail are 😊 Think of it this way - in the additional time it takes for the 718-grain arrow to get to the target the 436 grain arrow will have traveled 37 yards. Can an animal react more if you take a shot at further distance? Yes. If you take this argument presented in the Arrow Speed Analysis video then you have the believe that a 30 yd shot is no more ethical than 37 shorter shot as it relates to animal movement. Which is not true. Yes, an animal’s movement is unpredictable. What we do know is that we want to minimize what can happen with this unpredictability. My point is that for most average hunters (especially western) they are better served by shooting the flattest trajectory they can while maintaining great arrow flight with a decent cut size well designed & sharp 3-4b fixed head. The conversation doesn't have to be extreme low FOC vs extreme high FOC, very long unvented premium heads vs cheap mechanicals, super fast light arrows vs 650 grain arrows, dull heads vs sharp heads. There's a massive amount of middle ground that can be found to get the ideal setup that works in the largest variety of scenarios. Each person varies in skill, draw weight, length and hunting condition. Each one requires a different need and can't be boiled down to a simple chart recommending arrow weights per species. Lastly, people can shoot whatever they like. I'm just here to try to do my best to accurately represent considerations people should consider. There seems to be a lack of the "devil’s advocate" in these channels and a lot of confirmation bias.
Great video again! One thing I think is important to emphasize is more doesn't = better. More FOC does not always = better. Stiffer doesn't always = better. I see quite a few 250 spine arrows for sale but cut way short that I can't even wrap my head around what setup it could possibly work for. Then the guy has a heck of a time and money wasted as he can't resell a setup someone online talked him into. While some people say you be too stiff - this hasn't been my experience. You can generally get away with one spine stiffer than normal (cut a little longer). Generally, the appropriately spined arrow will group best. Especially with fixed broadheads. We can't ignore the entire professional archery industry as they would absolutely shoot whatever scores highest. Money is on the line. Also, I get questions often about FOC and the flight benefits. Easton has long said that 10-15% is ideal for hunting arrows. My personal sweet spot is 17-18%. Much higher than that and my forgiveness in flight goes down. Droge with Firenock talks about this some - I believe what is happening is that the node where the shaft is flexing is moving too far forward. All in all fastastic video! Better than most out there.
Thanks for watching, you’re right everything is important. If something doesn’t work for your setup it doesn’t work move on and find something that does.
Great presentation. Your hitting a bunch of reasons to increase your FOC that are being missed by RF (at least I have not heard him talk about them). Keep it up!
This is great stuff along with Troy Fowler explanations on Dr. Ed’s studies. Makes total sense NOT to have a giant lever working against the entering broadhead.
Fellow engineer and bow hunter from Australia here. I found this little series very interesting and clever. If you did more deep dives into the theory i will certainly be watching!
This was a great video series, especially in light of all the internet chatter about arrow weight, FOC, and broadhead type. Thanks for sharing and keep the videos coming.
All I know is that since I started tuning the crap out of bow even though I shoot mechanical's and going to 15% foc, my penetration has dramatically increased, 300 spine & 455gr total arrow weight. This year I severed one spine and shot completely through the center of another with the arrow exiting each time, Sevr 1.75's. I have never spined a deer in 27 years of bow hunting and I somehow managed to do it 2 times this season, lol. Each time the deer dropped like I shot it with a rifle. They were both does weighing 115# and 135#'s.
Bow tuning absolutely number 1. Was the spine shot a misplacement or deer movement, I am not trying to judge at all just generally curious. If your arrow works it works no need to over think it just shoot your bow and have fun!
Excellent presentation of the benefits of high FOC as the arrow impacts the target. I’ve often wondered, however, how much detrimental effect this high FOC will have on the arrow leaving the bow. I think it’s safe to assume that as FOC goes up, so does arrow flex leaving the bow. It would be interesting to know how much this affects flight, and ultimately accuracy, momentum, etc.
Great point! Your absolutely right foc effects the stiffness of the arrow leaving the bow a lot. In fact it’s difficult for a longer draw shooter to get high foc without the arrow being to weak from the bows point of view. Weak spine or stiffness arrows are definitely more sensitive and usually harder to tune and get consistent groups. In my experience.
The "equal and opposite reaction" part of applied forces is, when a person adds weight up on the front of an arrow trying to increase FOC, the arrow then flexes more at the shot (inertia-resistance), taking that energy out of the centerline of the arrow. Adding one factor causes another to offset it. To prevent more flex occurring in the arrow, a person has to then go to a stiffer spine (heavier) shaft, which changes the FOC back towards where it was originally, resulting in an overall heavier arrow, but with minimal gains in FOC. The manufacturers do a really good job of simplifying spine and components to what works best most of the time, related to the bow it is being shot from. The optimal FOC for most common arrows is somewhere between 10 and 14% depending on the shaft, when using their factory supplied components. Going outside of their tested and recommended (provided) components results in a necessary redress of the shaft spine stiffness, in order to transfer that energy lineally.
When I shoot at targets 60 yards and further I get to see the tail of my arrow whipping in flight. After watching this I’m thinking I probably have just a little too much tip weight for my given spine/bow poundage setup. Great video.
That is one possibility for sure. You can try either reducing point weight or reducing bow poundage to determine if that fixes the flight issue. Other things to consider is to closely examine tune and fletching configuration. If you want or need help figuring it out feel free to reach out on instagram. If you don’t have that and still want help I’ll give you my email. Take care, Lucas
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery thank you. I’m gonna try a few things here. With it the way it is, I am able to tune it to shoot fixed blade broadheads to very close to same POI at 40 yards but I know with the tail whip that something isn’t perfect.
Great video. I am a heavy arrow, EFOC guy. Interesting to hear your thoughts on stiffness up front. Another part of the equation to consider. The perfect performing arrow is what I am seeking. Watched several of your videos so far. EXCELLENT!!! Looking forward to more.
Apparently all the engineers are gathering. Im a radar engineer as well as an archer and you summed up my understanding of arrow flight. I usually think of it as a slinky or spring instead of a pool noodle but same idea.
Time to dissect the construction of arrows (or deconstruction of arrows) showing the strength of the carbon and composites used to create the shafts, and components, and then to re-measure and recalculate the "Force" failures. The substances that you've used are not relative to those in an arrow construction... "Law of diminishing returns" should be used more often when describing arrow builds. Growing up, my Dad worked as a mechanical engineer at NASA and Alliance Technologies, and we performed a lot of similar tests in the late 80's through the mid 90s as I attended the local university. There is so much information that ISN'T making it out to the public because of marketing, social media popularity contests, etc. It would boggle most of the public just how much the average person doesn't know.
Good point! There is a huge difference between e.g. an Easton Axis 300 spine and a Black Eagle Rampage 300 spine. Obviously, the higher GPI of the Axis already indicates highert robustness.
@@mhenschiTo some degree and with different arrows, yes. The material makeup of the arrow shaft build also comes into play here. Easton uses a LOT more filler resin than say, Gold Tip or Victory. If you get the chance to, go to the discarded arrow pile at your local shop or 3d range and get ahold of several different brands and models of arrows. Cut or break them, and look at the layering and materials each company uses and how they are put together. It is very interesting.
@@lspostma I've had my share of arrows to discard. Burned the front parts to get the brass inserts out. That reveals the layer build up nicely. Straight fibres, spiral fibres, etc.
@@YoureSoVane that seems like quite the blanket statement. I doubt most archers have taken as many physics classes as would be needed to use these equations properly.
@@rustinpeace7466 Fair point. The people who talk about FOC fall into three camps. Those who repeat RF talking points without really understanding what they mean, those who say FOC is stupid without really understanding what it means, and those who do math. FOC is a tool. It helps you do a thing. You can build a house without a hammer, you just need to use screws and it costs more in labor and resources. You can kill an animal with low FOC, it just requires certain compromises, primarily in broadhead selection.
Very informitive, i am in the dont care about foc camp. I shoot a standard arrow, carnivore full length out of box, blazer vanes with magnus stinger 100 gr. Lighted knock V3X 30.5 draw @ 70#. Crono at 299 fps. Almost always a get pass through arrows. Best part is my arrows are over the counter at any shop w/out any special parts.
Funny seeing all the comments about Ranch Fairy and thinking the FOC needs to be 20%+.. I’ll take Dudley’s advice and worry more about arrow flight and point of impact.
I kind of expected the opposite especially with this video and the last. However, I guess that means I am remaining neutral which is the goal. Thanks you watching.
@feelsgooddoit who is the "we" your referring to? I've been in seminars with every bow maker and every major arrow company in the industry and haven't ever heard them use that term relating to FOC. I come from a family of engineers, and that term doesn't apply to arrows and their weight distribution, at all.
I like your explanations, and really enjoying the nerding out on the math and physics behind this topic...but I can't say I agree with the shaft buckle part, because there is nothing fixing the arrow at the center of mass (the FOC point), or even an increased amount of weight concentrated at that point that might create an increase of momentum at that specific point. I could see the angle of the arrow changing at a reduced rate with a higher FOC, but the buckling would still have to occur at the entire length of the shaft regardless of the FOC point. This makes the pool noodle on the scale analogy a bit of a stretch. Or I could be wrong. Have you ever watched or listened to the John Dudley podcasts he did with several "arrow flight experts"? If you haven't, you'd probably enjoy them, it's really good stuff too.
I have listened to a lot of Dudleys stuff all very good, I'm not sure if I remember that specific one, I'll look them up thanks! But, to your question dynamically no this is not exactly what is happening it is a generalized simple explanation that most could understand. The FOC point is not fixed in the illustration it is free to move the broadhead side of the arrow would be fixed to the animal. During impact of objects the center of mass of the object is used as the concentration point of the forces, which is why I used the foc/CG in the explanation. Glad you enjoyed the videos and thanks for watching and your comment. The bigger take away that I wanted to highlight is that your arrow must be stiff enough to absorb the impact. Or you will loose a great deal of penetration.
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery agreed. When shooting broadheads in general it's better to be over spined than under spined, and especially once it hits the animal. Great discussion!
Greetings! Traditional bows, are a little different, since you are relying on the shaft flexing as it comes out of the bow to get good arrow flight. The goal should be to stabilize that flexing/paradox as soon as possible. As far as differences the .166 will perform better in cross wind however components such as broadhead attachment and nocks are weaker. .244 lots of options for components worse performance in cross wind. I personally like .204 arrows. For penetration on animals the arrow diameter has little effect as long as it is smaller than the broadhead.
Hey Lucas! Another great video! I’m looking at building a light strong arrow for whitetail deer. Bow Darton sequel 31 28 inch draw 56 lb pull Arrow options Black eagle X impact with 35 grain firenock arrow outserts on the front with 100 grain fixed blade broadhead. RIP XV arrow with heavier front of center or similar? Looking for final weigh to be right around 400 grain with a 4 fletch setup to help with fixed broadhead flight. I’m thinking both in 350 spine but maybe go 300 to increase stiffness? Or add those firenock carbon tubes on the 350 spine, or just leave it at 350 spine. Your thoughts?
I think you will be fine for either arrow in a 350 spine at that draw length and weight, the xv arrow can be brittle. However if you beef up the front you will be fine. I would suggest cutting your arrow as short as you’re comfortable with. Shorter arrows are easier for getting FOC, stiffness and durability without the added weight. It will also improve wind drift. My only issue with the firenock inner tubes is that they are difficult to get 100% correctly installed that statement is coming directly from Dorge(who owns firenock)
Brilliant videos breaking down arrow flight. I am curious of what sort of total arrow weights, FOC, shaft stiffener, etc are you using? (For hunting elk/moose)
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the videos! I have used heavy 705 18%foc arrows for the last two year shot two elk full pass through 1 full pass through frontal, which broke the should blade going in. This year I'll probably use a 550 grain arrow with probably closer to 20%foc. I might play around with the firenock inserts and inner shafts I mentioned. Regardless I prefer at least some steel component in the front. I have used collars a lot. I plan on tinkering a little more with other stuff but will test heavily before I hunt with them.
Wow, that’s heavier than I was expecting you to say. I was expecting stiff light arrow (lighter than 500) based on your videos…to keep flatter trajectory and faster speed…
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery I think we have to be careful extrapolating personal experience. I've also killed a bull full pass on a frontal - but with 443 grains, 17% FOC and a super compact sharp 3 blade. Devastating shots - I love a frontal on elk. Actually, with this setup I've achieved a full pass through on 5 or so animals. We also need to mention KE & Momentum (which you do in your vids of course I've got several buddies who've done the same with similar setups without failure. I'm always playing with different weight and I'll likely be 500+ grains this year with my new to me bow. But I've also had scenarios where if my range error was any greater - it surely wouldn't have been lethal but a terrible wound. So that is always in the back of my mind. People seem to get a lot of confirmation bias but the reality is most setups that have thought put into them, and bows are tuned, etc. You will do very, very well with. Just being tuned, spined properly, decent having adequate fletching and a sharp well flying broadhead puts you in the top 10% of setups out there. The rest of the gains are marginal in my experience and tradeoff start taking place. I like steel.. but Titanium is even better. You can invest that weight elsewhere for durability. I don't add FOC just for FOC's sake 😅 Like brass inserts... can't wrap my ahead around those as most steel is much stronger. Hit me up if you need a shaft or 2 to play around with - I'm always willing to help out another tinkerer.
@@rchapman8865 the lightest arrow I can make with my draw length and weight is around 460. While staying in a stiffer spine and getting good arrow flight. I prefer a little heavier for cross wind situations haven’t touched on that in the videos yet buts it’s a big factor for me. Everyone is different on what they like, I’m going to play with using firenock stiffeners in like a 340 spine to see if I can get good performance with lightweight shafts and good grouping but wind is still a concern. Maybe a TAC arrow.
@@TheArrowBuilder You are very correct with extrapolating from personal experience. Unless you know the individual and their bow first hand a number of other factors could causes issue both heavy and light arrows! I have not doubt that 443 is deadly. I kinda wanted to find the absolute biggest cutting diameter mechanical I could to slap on the 705 arrow. Shoot it at an elk and see what happens. In the hunt right now for my next broadhead if anyone has suggestions let me know! The steel vs Titanium is interesting to me because that's kinda of a grey area if we are talking yield strength which would be what resist bending, titanium doesn't always win it depends on what steel as well as design construction we are talking about. However, strength to weight then titanium will win...... I guess I am cheap as well titanium right now is expensive hahaha. are you using MFJJ titanium inserts, firenocks, or Easton?..... I know Daysix makes some as well but doubt you can use those and get down to that weight. Thanks for the offer on arrows for testing! However, I would must prefer you keep the arrows do some testing and post it for all to see! You might come up with a test that is completely different than anyone else has ever thought of that gets different results! If you don't want to post it send it to me and I'll do it! Or if your local to me reach out on instagram @l.e.a.p.Outdoors and well meet up and shoot.
Another great video Lucas! I currently have a Darton Sequel 31 28 inch draw 55 lb of pull. I shoot a 100 grain fixed blade broadhead. Can I get by with a 400 spine black eagle spartan arrow? It comes with a 22.5 insert. Enough FOC for whitetail hunting? I can also add a 30 grain weight to that insert giving it a 50 grain weight the. Add the 100 grain broadhead for a total of 150 upfront. Love to hear your thoughts! Thank you!
I am personally a fan of a stiffer arrow. However, if you want to shoot the 400 I believe your bow will tune okay. I would suggest cutting the arrow as short as possible with the 400 spine. If your arrow was cut to 28in you would be right on the cusp for going to 340/350 spine with 150 total up front. All the calculations I have ran a stiffer arrow yields better improvements than a weaker spine. The stiffer arrow allows more forgiveness for broadhead choice, ability to add more weight up front and will generally tune easier for a compound. However, it comes with the cost of reduced arrow speed. Either choice you choose you will be fine for whitetail with a fixed blade broadhead just make sure you keep your broadhead sharp. Happy hunting good luck 👍!
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery thanks Lucas! I have gone down the Rabbit hole to build the ideal arrow for whitetail hunting with pulling less than 60 lbs. I appreciate your knowledge on this topic and I am surely open to any knowledge!
I found something interesting with my target/3D arrows the other day. I was shooting 150grains of point weight at 60yard and had a 6”ish group I took out 30grains and tighten that group up to a 3”Ish at 60yards. Don’t over look accuracy for FOC
Very interesting that’s something I’m trying to work out an adequate test method for. If you don’t mind what spine arrow, draw length, draw lb, arrow length and Foc of each arrow? One big problem I’ve personally seen with foc is not having enough arrow spine it might tune okay but the grouping is terrible. But I also have a long draw compounding the issue. Thanks for the comment
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery I’m shooting ps23s 350spine cut at 27” carbon to carbon 120grain point weight with aae max26 (they were free I didn’t buy them so I’m not 100 sure what vane they are) 3fletch my draw weight is like 62lb and my length is like 28ish. Not sure the FOC but I can figure it out if you need it
@@Texaslivinoutdoors I appreciate the info I should be able to calculate foc. How much offset or helical are the vanes best guess? I value others opinion and experiences so thank you for the feedback.
Yes I plan on talking about cross wind in a future video. You are right the bigger moment arm on the back will push the back of the arrow more than front as a result the tip of arrow will come off axis. Your best defense against cross wind is arrow mass, more mass requires more wind to push that mass. Smaller side profile both in shaft diameter, fletching size and broadhead size will also help in cross wind. Thanks for the comment.
I wonder how shaft diameter affects this even though the wall thickness’s are different. You know if stand squarely on an empty pop can it will still hold a considerable amount of weight.
I thought that would change it as well however arrow spine, is really a deflection amount. In my calculations I used inside and outside diameters as well as the spine deflection to determine the arrows elastic modulus, every spine ended up being the same numbers the modulus was changing depending on arrow, I.e high modulus vs low modulus arrows. The difference with a can is its diameter is large compared to its length. Short wide column, column buckling is unique to longer slender columns. So a can usually fails from compression first and crushes nearly perfectly together.
Lucas, What are you using for your Modulus of Elasticity for the carbon arrow? I am seeing various values online. Easton has a value of 46,000,000 PSI on their website, which I think is incredibly high.....but what do I know....
That's an excellent question! I do not assume a fixed value. What I did is back solve for the Modulus. Since arrow spine is the measure of deflection of the arrow over a span of 28inches with a fixed weight value of 880 grams, 1.94lbs, given the geometry of the inside and outside diameters of the shaft we can determine modulus. The assumption is that it would follow a three point bending test. I think 46,000,000 psi is probably a maximum from Easton. The 4mm axis 250 spine based on outside and inside diameters listed on their website would have a modulus of just under 26,000,000 if the spine deflection of 0.250 inches at 28 inches is assumed correct.
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery So, I back calculated the Modulus using the method you use above for a 340 spine Easton Axis. I got 15,867,601 PSI. This is working out to a critical buckling load of 52.86 lbs for me. Comparing this to your Estimated Impact Forces for the 507 Grain arrow (yes, my arrow is 507.3 grains...but it will be going about 265 FPS), it looks like I will be right on the edge of the critical buckling load! This explains A LOT!!!...and why both of the deer I shot last year had so-so penetration! Holy Cow!!
In theory more FOC means the vanes have more correction leverage and therefore you can use a smaller vane or less vane on the back. You have to be very careful about this.. I had a setup with 275 grains up front with 21% FOC. I used 3 heat vanes assuming I could get away with it due to my higher FOC. I was wrong and struggled to make that setup work with a large single bevel on the front. Any deviation in form and hand torque would cause me to miss my target by 4-6” @20 yards. Anyone who’s been shooting for a while can shoot a bare shaft bullet hole consistently through paper in a controlled environment, but how many people are paper tuning hanging out of a saddle or standing in a hang on 20’ up in a tree? It’s a whole different scenario. Don’t just assume because you have high FOC you can get away with a certain vane setup.. you may or you may not. If you are trying something new ALWAYS do the real world testing and see for yourself and never just assume anything because it should work “in theory”. Get a few different vanes and set them up in 3 fletch and 4 fletch configurations and shoot at your maximum effective range. Keep track of your group sizes. The setup with the least amount of vane that gives you the best results should be the vane you decide to hunt with or take to the tournament. Too much vane adds weight to the back of your arrow and total TAW, decreasing FOC, and adds more surface area for crosswinds to push your arrow off track. Too little vane takes away from the forgiveness of your setup and will magnify any breakdown in form. It’s a balance and one that you need to go out and shoot your bow to determine. Just my 2 cents! Really enjoying the videos keep them coming!
I'm a simpleton compared to you, so this will take repeated viewings before it makes complete sense, but this is great content. I would be interested to know the poundage of the bow for these tests as a curiosity. What you're saying is contra to a lot of conventional bowhunting wisdom. I've read sources online from respected big game bowhunting authorities who espouse the more-is-more approach - higher poundage, heavier arrows (as high as 80# 700gr minimum for game like water buffalo), but what you're saying (as I understand it) is that raw power is not as necessary for penetration as straight and consistent arrow flight coupled with sufficient rigidity ahead of the centre of mass to prevent the shaft from buckling on impact, along with a sharp broadhead that isn't too broad. Will the next video be about how specifically go about constructing arrows to fit this criteria? Is there an easy route to do this, such as with carbon fibre inserts you mentioned? Or is it the more complex matter of tuning the grain to the broadhead to the vanes to the spine, etc? Thanks again, great content.
Great question! The answer is both yes and no. You can go as heavy as arrow as you would like or a heavy bow draw, but if the arrow does not hit square or if the shaft is too weak to withstand the impact it will fail resulting in less penetration. When compared to a good flying lighter shaft. However, the answer is also no because, if your arrow is flying great and your arrow is stiff enough to withstand impact increasing mass or bow poundage will result in more penetration. Everything is connected it should be a checklist type of evaluation. Yes, I do plan on a future videos discussing different types of arrow builds that can increase the front arrow stiffness as well as testing of these different shaft into various mediums and animals, and bow tuning. I do appreciate the questions so please keep them coming, I think questions are important to discuss and advance all our knowledge, including my own.
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery My question after reading that is that surely all of this points to a stiffer spine being better in all circumstances if penetration is the aim, right? In what circumstance would I ever want a more flexible arrow in a hunting context if flexion affects penetration so adversely?
@@ZacisBadatGuitar my recommendation would be go as stiff as you can while getting good arrow flight. That’s your limiting factor how well your arrow tunes and groups down range. Recurve and traditional bows are much more sensitive to a specific arrow spine compounds can shoot a large range without issue so go stiff in my opinion.
Mathematically I have yet to determine or find a downside to more FOC. With the exception of increased overall mass of the arrow. However, practically arrow stiffness is very difficult to control with higher FOC arrows. The initial launch of the arrow is the problem. FOC its self does not cause downrange instability. Why does Easton recommend this range? I’d love to see the testing? So far I have not been able to find any information on why. However, their current selection of arrows and components make it very difficult to build an arrow which is outside the 10-15% FOC range. Unless adding a 200 grain plus broadhead. However, they were the first to start making heavier components such as the 75 grain brass hit which suggest they understood weight forward was and is important. If you have more information than me I’d love to hear it. Thanks for the comment.
Don’t forget most manufacturers have a minimum of so many grains per pound of draw weight. If you blow up your bow it ain’t my fault haha. However I’ll join in on picking on you haha. Take care Mic!
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery what if I’m running 40lb 🤔 haha I’m just messing around. Keep up the good work Lucas, you’ve always had a way with explaining things in a way that’s easy to understand 😁
Great videos. I’m an engineer and bowhunter and these are the things I ponder.
Same here, thanks for watching!
Keep it up. Appreciate the education. Blessings
Much appreciated! Thank you!
Good job my friend ✊
Thanks G ✌
This video is what I've been trying to teach some friends. I run a 27" arrow 300 spine but what helps with the spine is the 3 inch long ,120g Ethics insert. The 300 spine is just to get the arrow out of the bow. After that the arrow has to be the sharpest and strongest to get the penetration I need. Great videos.
Dude, this channel is way underrated. Great content. It will take off sooner or later!
Thanks for this info
Thank you for the kind words I have been blown away by the support so far!
Best technical description of FOC I've seen, and I've watched all of Ranch Fairy's stuff!
The Ranch Fairy agrees!!
@@RanchFairy 🤣😂 ...that made my day. Thank you Sir - for the record, I love your content and you're the reason I now shoot Adult Arrows...
Very, very interesting information. Thank you..for teaching. I appreciate the math.
Glad it was helpful! That was my goal have a conversation because everything can and does work and everything fails from time to time. Take care.
I’d love to see you go on other hunting/archery podcast and debate with different opinions. It’s not common to have someone well versed in aerodynamics and physics who’s also an archer/bow hunter. There’s so much information out there it’s getting increasingly difficult to filter the true from the false
One big issue is to not fixate on one component they are all connected! I’d love to discuss this on podcast. In the future I’m going to try to do more physical testing as well. Thanks for watching!
So one thing Lucas does VERY well, he’s literally showing the facts. Math, columnar buckling, impact force, he’s not debating.
@RanchFairy the debate is whether or not penetration is statistically the limitation to lethality. Yes, two holes are better than one. But at what cost?
@@TheArrowBuilder
Ah ha! An arrow builder. And you say “statistically limiting”. Heck yeah. We sound like an educated man.
Before we continue - I believe the answer will manifest itself:
To be fair - you said the following.
1. Why two holes are better than one? In your own words.
2. Please define “cost”.
Can you please add some context to #1 and #2?
@@RanchFairy By statistically limiting I mean - Is penetration "the" problem? Are more animals lost due to lack of penetration? Rarely do I hear about this from the average hunter shooting a fixed broadhead. In my personal life, online and from trackers what I hear about bad scenarios is shots too far back, high or low. Being accuracy, precision and cut size. For this discussion lets eliminate plain aiming in the wrong location. Not that it’s not a problem but you’ve done the work here and we’re in agreement.
1. Two holes are better than one in several different ways. First and foremost blood trials in general will be better on average, next the arrow can be recovered to make inferences on shot location and likely having another hole reduces the ability to hold cavity pressure (you’d know better than me).
2. Cost being trajectory, forgiveness in flight, time in flight, cut size/shape, and cost in the most usual form. Dollars. The weighting of that varies person to person and doesn't need dived into. See below for added detail. It got lengthy - feel free to email orders@thearrowbuilder.com if you feel like it.
Personally, I account for probably 75% of Ashby's recommendations on any given build. However, there are areas that is often overlooked or seen to be swept under the rug. For example, he lays out a very critical caveat: “You Should Always Use The Heaviest Arrow Possible That Has A Trajectory That You Still Find Acceptable”. So, what should the hunter consider to be that acceptable trajectory? Well, that depends on the species targeted and the hunting conditions. Are you at a feeder with known yardages? Or are you a hunter hunting public land with unknown ranges 30 and in. If so, then I'd follow up asking the hunter being brutally honest with yourself. How well can you range? I've done this self-introspection and a lot of shooting.. It's not great, realistically I'm plus or minus 5 yds. Being that I target species at unknown range this is a huge concern for me. Did that animal pop out at 30 or 35 yards?
Accuracy:
Comparing two setups with a 5-yard range error on a whitetail at 30 yards for two setups. You’re shooting from 20' up in a tree saddle, estimate range at 30 place your 30 pin at an slightly quartering animal that is actually at 25. A fast 445 grain arrow at 294 fps or a heavy 650 grain arrow at 246 fps. The difference in shot location from those two setups in accuracy is approximately 1.5". An entire huge broadhead high. You probably know better than I do but let’s say a whitetails vitals are 10" to be generous and keep math simple. A 1.5" error on 10" was 15% less accurate to where you intended to range out the gate. An entire big cut broadhead high. Now, that's without other compounding factors. What is your shot precision with a broadhead out of a saddle at 25 yds? I'd say the average to good hunter would have a tough time getting sub 3" groups (larger with heads with poor flight characteristics). So worst case you're shooting as far off as 4.5" or 45% off from your intended shot location. I'd ask the question in this scenario - did we increase the odds of a "plan b" scenario hitting bone by reducing our accuracy? I'd say if you hit 4.5" high you'll find much more bone.
Precision:
Next, the other glaring contradiction in the report is a stating that arrow flight is number 1, then proceeding to recommend an unvented 3:1 ratio 2b broadhead with a very high capability to plane of course with any form error that is experienced in hunting scenarios. IE tree stand, saddle hunting, uneven footing, or just jitters. Capability of a broadhead to plane is directly related to velocity and the surface area of the broadhead. However, the reduction in velocity moving to a 3:1 unvented 200+grain head (even with velocity squared) still doesn't outweigh the gain reducing the length or adding vents into the head. Venting isn't my preferred method as it increases noise and reduces durability. However, reducing length is a viable option. I've shot a lot of broadheads now (I'd hate to count) and this proves to be true every time. All things equal (IE tolerances/spin) the larger the exposed area of blade on a broadhead the more unforgiving it will be. Again, did we increase the odds of a "plan b" scenario hitting bone by reducing our precision?
Cut Size/Shape:
I’ve seen this debated - but I still can’t logic my way into it not mattering. A larger cut or an extra blade can increase the likelihood of clipping something vital. At a sacrifice to penetration. I also can’t logic my way into a larger wound not producing more blood on the ground. Clearly, this can go too far. Too large of heads fly like crap. Huge mechanical take way to much energy/momentum. There’s a balance to be found here. I personally find there to be plenty of 1.68” cutting surface fixed broadheads to fly fantastic - even as fast speed at distance. Say Magnus Black Hornet or dozens of others I’ve shot.
Time in Flight:
We can use Ranch Fairy data from your velocity erosion video to do an example. At 30 yards it will take a 436-grain arrow (281 fps launch, 273 fps avg to 30 yds) around 330 milliseconds. A 718 grain out of the same setup will take around 410 milliseconds. This means that the arrow will arrive 25% later than the faster arrow. Now this is only the time for the arrow to get there, we need to deduct the amount of time it takes for the first sound of the bow to get there (1125.33 FPS) - which is .08 seconds. And the reaction time of say .08 as well (2x faster than a male sprinter). Taking this into account the animal (if it chooses to) has MINIMUM 50% more time to react to the 718 grain arrow at ONLY 30 yards. This is not irrelevant. Especially because gravity accelerates and animal with time. If you think that an animal won't react more given 50% more time you're on more crack than these whitetail are 😊
Think of it this way - in the additional time it takes for the 718-grain arrow to get to the target the 436 grain arrow will have traveled 37 yards. Can an animal react more if you take a shot at further distance? Yes. If you take this argument presented in the Arrow Speed Analysis video then you have the believe that a 30 yd shot is no more ethical than 37 shorter shot as it relates to animal movement. Which is not true. Yes, an animal’s movement is unpredictable. What we do know is that we want to minimize what can happen with this unpredictability.
My point is that for most average hunters (especially western) they are better served by shooting the flattest trajectory they can while maintaining great arrow flight with a decent cut size well designed & sharp 3-4b fixed head. The conversation doesn't have to be extreme low FOC vs extreme high FOC, very long unvented premium heads vs cheap mechanicals, super fast light arrows vs 650 grain arrows, dull heads vs sharp heads. There's a massive amount of middle ground that can be found to get the ideal setup that works in the largest variety of scenarios. Each person varies in skill, draw weight, length and hunting condition. Each one requires a different need and can't be boiled down to a simple chart recommending arrow weights per species.
Lastly, people can shoot whatever they like. I'm just here to try to do my best to accurately represent considerations people should consider. There seems to be a lack of the "devil’s advocate" in these channels and a lot of confirmation bias.
Great video again! One thing I think is important to emphasize is more doesn't = better. More FOC does not always = better. Stiffer doesn't always = better. I see quite a few 250 spine arrows for sale but cut way short that I can't even wrap my head around what setup it could possibly work for. Then the guy has a heck of a time and money wasted as he can't resell a setup someone online talked him into.
While some people say you be too stiff - this hasn't been my experience. You can generally get away with one spine stiffer than normal (cut a little longer). Generally, the appropriately spined arrow will group best. Especially with fixed broadheads.
We can't ignore the entire professional archery industry as they would absolutely shoot whatever scores highest. Money is on the line.
Also, I get questions often about FOC and the flight benefits. Easton has long said that 10-15% is ideal for hunting arrows. My personal sweet spot is 17-18%. Much higher than that and my forgiveness in flight goes down. Droge with Firenock talks about this some - I believe what is happening is that the node where the shaft is flexing is moving too far forward.
All in all fastastic video! Better than most out there.
Thanks for watching, you’re right everything is important. If something doesn’t work for your setup it doesn’t work move on and find something that does.
Great presentation. Your hitting a bunch of reasons to increase your FOC that are being missed by RF (at least I have not heard him talk about them). Keep it up!
Agreed. RF is certainly on the right track, he just doesn't back his thoughts up enough to keep the 'light is right' brigade off his back.
Awesome video! Thank you for taking the time to do this.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching!
Complicated subject made easy to understand. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching
Excellent info. These are things I knew, but I've never seen it presented this clearly. Good work
Thank you!
Nice to see physics applied to arrow construction. Thanks
You bet! Thanks for watching!
This is great stuff along with Troy Fowler explanations on Dr. Ed’s studies. Makes total sense NOT to have a giant lever working against the entering broadhead.
Fellow engineer and bow hunter from Australia here. I found this little series very interesting and clever. If you did more deep dives into the theory i will certainly be watching!
Thanks more to come for sure, I am trying to break it up into bite size pieces. If you have any question please feel free to ask.
This was a great video series, especially in light of all the internet chatter about arrow weight, FOC, and broadhead type. Thanks for sharing and keep the videos coming.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching! Next video coming soon.
All I know is that since I started tuning the crap out of bow even though I shoot mechanical's and going to 15% foc, my penetration has dramatically increased, 300 spine & 455gr total arrow weight. This year I severed one spine and shot completely through the center of another with the arrow exiting each time, Sevr 1.75's. I have never spined a deer in 27 years of bow hunting and I somehow managed to do it 2 times this season, lol. Each time the deer dropped like I shot it with a rifle. They were both does weighing 115# and 135#'s.
Bow tuning absolutely number 1. Was the spine shot a misplacement or deer movement, I am not trying to judge at all just generally curious. If your arrow works it works no need to over think it just shoot your bow and have fun!
Great video, keep it up
Thanks, will do!
Excellent presentation of the benefits of high FOC as the arrow impacts the target. I’ve often wondered, however, how much detrimental effect this high FOC will have on the arrow leaving the bow. I think it’s safe to assume that as FOC goes up, so does arrow flex leaving the bow. It would be interesting to know how much this affects flight, and ultimately accuracy, momentum, etc.
Great point! Your absolutely right foc effects the stiffness of the arrow leaving the bow a lot. In fact it’s difficult for a longer draw shooter to get high foc without the arrow being to weak from the bows point of view. Weak spine or stiffness arrows are definitely more sensitive and usually harder to tune and get consistent groups. In my experience.
The "equal and opposite reaction" part of applied forces is, when a person adds weight up on the front of an arrow trying to increase FOC, the arrow then flexes more at the shot (inertia-resistance), taking that energy out of the centerline of the arrow.
Adding one factor causes another to offset it. To prevent more flex occurring in the arrow, a person has to then go to a stiffer spine (heavier) shaft, which changes the FOC back towards where it was originally, resulting in an overall heavier arrow, but with minimal gains in FOC.
The manufacturers do a really good job of simplifying spine and components to what works best most of the time, related to the bow it is being shot from. The optimal FOC for most common arrows is somewhere between 10 and 14% depending on the shaft, when using their factory supplied components.
Going outside of their tested and recommended (provided) components results in a necessary redress of the shaft spine stiffness, in order to transfer that energy lineally.
When I shoot at targets 60 yards and further I get to see the tail of my arrow whipping in flight. After watching this I’m thinking I probably have just a little too much tip weight for my given spine/bow poundage setup. Great video.
That is one possibility for sure. You can try either reducing point weight or reducing bow poundage to determine if that fixes the flight issue. Other things to consider is to closely examine tune and fletching configuration. If you want or need help figuring it out feel free to reach out on instagram. If you don’t have that and still want help I’ll give you my email. Take care,
Lucas
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery thank you. I’m gonna try a few things here. With it the way it is, I am able to tune it to shoot fixed blade broadheads to very close to same POI at 40 yards but I know with the tail whip that something isn’t perfect.
Great explanation. Best I've seen!!!
Wow, thanks! appreciate you watching.
Great video. I am a heavy arrow, EFOC guy. Interesting to hear your thoughts on stiffness up front. Another part of the equation to consider. The perfect performing arrow is what I am seeking. Watched several of your videos so far. EXCELLENT!!! Looking forward to more.
Thank you!
Apparently all the engineers are gathering. Im a radar engineer as well as an archer and you summed up my understanding of arrow flight. I usually think of it as a slinky or spring instead of a pool noodle but same idea.
Welcome, if you have any thoughts or suggestions I’m all ears. Thanks for watching.
You and the Ranch Fairy are writing the same book just using different editors. Great video.
Glad you like the video, my goal is to just have people think a little bit open a dialogue. It’s all archery it’s all fun. Thanks for watching!
awesome
Time to dissect the construction of arrows (or deconstruction of arrows) showing the strength of the carbon and composites used to create the shafts, and components, and then to re-measure and recalculate the "Force" failures. The substances that you've used are not relative to those in an arrow construction... "Law of diminishing returns" should be used more often when describing arrow builds.
Growing up, my Dad worked as a mechanical engineer at NASA and Alliance Technologies, and we performed a lot of similar tests in the late 80's through the mid 90s as I attended the local university. There is so much information that ISN'T making it out to the public because of marketing, social media popularity contests, etc. It would boggle most of the public just how much the average person doesn't know.
Good point! There is a huge difference between e.g. an Easton Axis 300 spine and a Black Eagle Rampage 300 spine. Obviously, the higher GPI of the Axis already indicates highert robustness.
@@mhenschiTo some degree and with different arrows, yes. The material makeup of the arrow shaft build also comes into play here. Easton uses a LOT more filler resin than say, Gold Tip or Victory. If you get the chance to, go to the discarded arrow pile at your local shop or 3d range and get ahold of several different brands and models of arrows. Cut or break them, and look at the layering and materials each company uses and how they are put together. It is very interesting.
@@lspostma I've had my share of arrows to discard. Burned the front parts to get the brass inserts out. That reveals the layer build up nicely. Straight fibres, spiral fibres, etc.
Haven't heard the ol RF discuss that before, very interesting. You have my attention.
The rest of the high FOC crowd tends to look at these factors. Anyone who does the math looks at it like this.
@@YoureSoVane that seems like quite the blanket statement. I doubt most archers have taken as many physics classes as would be needed to use these equations properly.
@@rustinpeace7466 Fair point.
The people who talk about FOC fall into three camps. Those who repeat RF talking points without really understanding what they mean, those who say FOC is stupid without really understanding what it means, and those who do math.
FOC is a tool. It helps you do a thing. You can build a house without a hammer, you just need to use screws and it costs more in labor and resources. You can kill an animal with low FOC, it just requires certain compromises, primarily in broadhead selection.
Excellent video! I really learned alot. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful! thanks for watching.
Very informitive, i am in the dont care about foc camp. I shoot a standard arrow, carnivore full length out of box, blazer vanes with magnus stinger 100 gr. Lighted knock V3X 30.5 draw @ 70#. Crono at 299 fps. Almost always a get pass through arrows. Best part is my arrows are over the counter at any shop w/out any special parts.
Arrow availability is important for both arrows, components and broad heads in my opinion.
Thanks for watching!
Awesome video
Funny seeing all the comments about Ranch Fairy and thinking the FOC needs to be 20%+.. I’ll take Dudley’s advice and worry more about arrow flight and point of impact.
I kind of expected the opposite especially with this video and the last. However, I guess that means I am remaining neutral which is the goal. Thanks you watching.
This all makes complete sense. Very simply put, it's a mystery to me the entire bowhunting community isnt on board with cm foc arrows by now.
"CM" FOC?
@@lspostma centermass
@@feelsgooddoit I understood the abbreviation to be centermass, but wondering what you mean and how does cm relate to FOC?
@@lspostma when we talk about foc,we are referring to where the centermass is located
@feelsgooddoit who is the "we" your referring to? I've been in seminars with every bow maker and every major arrow company in the industry and haven't ever heard them use that term relating to FOC. I come from a family of engineers, and that term doesn't apply to arrows and their weight distribution, at all.
I like your explanations, and really enjoying the nerding out on the math and physics behind this topic...but I can't say I agree with the shaft buckle part, because there is nothing fixing the arrow at the center of mass (the FOC point), or even an increased amount of weight concentrated at that point that might create an increase of momentum at that specific point. I could see the angle of the arrow changing at a reduced rate with a higher FOC, but the buckling would still have to occur at the entire length of the shaft regardless of the FOC point. This makes the pool noodle on the scale analogy a bit of a stretch. Or I could be wrong. Have you ever watched or listened to the John Dudley podcasts he did with several "arrow flight experts"? If you haven't, you'd probably enjoy them, it's really good stuff too.
I have listened to a lot of Dudleys stuff all very good, I'm not sure if I remember that specific one, I'll look them up thanks! But, to your question dynamically no this is not exactly what is happening it is a generalized simple explanation that most could understand. The FOC point is not fixed in the illustration it is free to move the broadhead side of the arrow would be fixed to the animal. During impact of objects the center of mass of the object is used as the concentration point of the forces, which is why I used the foc/CG in the explanation. Glad you enjoyed the videos and thanks for watching and your comment. The bigger take away that I wanted to highlight is that your arrow must be stiff enough to absorb the impact. Or you will loose a great deal of penetration.
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery agreed. When shooting broadheads in general it's better to be over spined than under spined, and especially once it hits the animal. Great discussion!
Great content!👍‼️more answers we get the more questions we have to answer!🤓🤔😁
Yes we do
F o c good
Saludos desde España. Gracias por el vídeo. Uso arco tradicional. Podrías hablar de las diferencias entre .166 y .244? Gracias
Greetings! Traditional bows, are a little different, since you are relying on the shaft flexing as it comes out of the bow to get good arrow flight. The goal should be to stabilize that flexing/paradox as soon as possible.
As far as differences the .166 will perform better in cross wind however components such as broadhead attachment and nocks are weaker. .244 lots of options for components worse performance in cross wind. I personally like .204 arrows. For penetration on animals the arrow diameter has little effect as long as it is smaller than the broadhead.
Thanks for watching if you have any more questions I’d be happy to help.
Hey Lucas! Another great video! I’m looking at building a light strong arrow for whitetail deer.
Bow Darton sequel 31
28 inch draw
56 lb pull
Arrow options
Black eagle X impact with 35 grain firenock arrow outserts on the front with 100 grain fixed blade broadhead.
RIP XV arrow with heavier front of center or similar?
Looking for final weigh to be right around 400 grain with a 4 fletch setup to help with fixed broadhead flight.
I’m thinking both in 350 spine but maybe go 300 to increase stiffness? Or add those firenock carbon tubes on the 350 spine, or just leave it at 350 spine.
Your thoughts?
I think you will be fine for either arrow in a 350 spine at that draw length and weight, the xv arrow can be brittle. However if you beef up the front you will be fine. I would suggest cutting your arrow as short as you’re comfortable with. Shorter arrows are easier for getting FOC, stiffness and durability without the added weight. It will also improve wind drift. My only issue with the firenock inner tubes is that they are difficult to get 100% correctly installed that statement is coming directly from Dorge(who owns firenock)
Feel free to reach out directly to me at proarcheryballistics@gmail.com if you have more questions. Always happy to help.
Brilliant videos breaking down arrow flight.
I am curious of what sort of total arrow weights, FOC, shaft stiffener, etc are you using? (For hunting elk/moose)
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the videos!
I have used heavy 705 18%foc arrows for the last two year shot two elk full pass through 1 full pass through frontal, which broke the should blade going in. This year I'll probably use a 550 grain arrow with probably closer to 20%foc. I might play around with the firenock inserts and inner shafts I mentioned. Regardless I prefer at least some steel component in the front. I have used collars a lot. I plan on tinkering a little more with other stuff but will test heavily before I hunt with them.
Wow, that’s heavier than I was expecting you to say.
I was expecting stiff light arrow (lighter than 500) based on your videos…to keep flatter trajectory and faster speed…
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery I think we have to be careful extrapolating personal experience. I've also killed a bull full pass on a frontal - but with 443 grains, 17% FOC and a super compact sharp 3 blade. Devastating shots - I love a frontal on elk. Actually, with this setup I've achieved a full pass through on 5 or so animals. We also need to mention KE & Momentum (which you do in your vids of course I've got several buddies who've done the same with similar setups without failure. I'm always playing with different weight and I'll likely be 500+ grains this year with my new to me bow. But I've also had scenarios where if my range error was any greater - it surely wouldn't have been lethal but a terrible wound. So that is always in the back of my mind. People seem to get a lot of confirmation bias but the reality is most setups that have thought put into them, and bows are tuned, etc. You will do very, very well with. Just being tuned, spined properly, decent having adequate fletching and a sharp well flying broadhead puts you in the top 10% of setups out there. The rest of the gains are marginal in my experience and tradeoff start taking place.
I like steel.. but Titanium is even better. You can invest that weight elsewhere for durability. I don't add FOC just for FOC's sake 😅 Like brass inserts... can't wrap my ahead around those as most steel is much stronger. Hit me up if you need a shaft or 2 to play around with - I'm always willing to help out another tinkerer.
@@rchapman8865 the lightest arrow I can make with my draw length and weight is around 460. While staying in a stiffer spine and getting good arrow flight. I prefer a little heavier for cross wind situations haven’t touched on that in the videos yet buts it’s a big factor for me. Everyone is different on what they like, I’m going to play with using firenock stiffeners in like a 340 spine to see if I can get good performance with lightweight shafts and good grouping but wind is still a concern. Maybe a TAC arrow.
@@TheArrowBuilder You are very correct with extrapolating from personal experience. Unless you know the individual and their bow first hand a number of other factors could causes issue both heavy and light arrows! I have not doubt that 443 is deadly. I kinda wanted to find the absolute biggest cutting diameter mechanical I could to slap on the 705 arrow. Shoot it at an elk and see what happens.
In the hunt right now for my next broadhead if anyone has suggestions let me know!
The steel vs Titanium is interesting to me because that's kinda of a grey area if we are talking yield strength which would be what resist bending, titanium doesn't always win it depends on what steel as well as design construction we are talking about. However, strength to weight then titanium will win...... I guess I am cheap as well titanium right now is expensive hahaha.
are you using MFJJ titanium inserts, firenocks, or Easton?..... I know Daysix makes some as well but doubt you can use those and get down to that weight.
Thanks for the offer on arrows for testing! However, I would must prefer you keep the arrows do some testing and post it for all to see! You might come up with a test that is completely different than anyone else has ever thought of that gets different results! If you don't want to post it send it to me and I'll do it! Or if your local to me reach out on instagram @l.e.a.p.Outdoors and well meet up and shoot.
Another great video Lucas!
I currently have a Darton Sequel 31 28 inch draw 55 lb of pull. I shoot a 100 grain fixed blade broadhead. Can I get by with a 400 spine black eagle spartan arrow? It comes with a 22.5 insert. Enough FOC for whitetail hunting? I can also add a 30 grain weight to that insert giving it a 50 grain weight the. Add the 100 grain broadhead for a total of 150 upfront. Love to hear your thoughts!
Thank you!
I am personally a fan of a stiffer arrow. However, if you want to shoot the 400 I believe your bow will tune okay. I would suggest cutting the arrow as short as possible with the 400 spine. If your arrow was cut to 28in you would be right on the cusp for going to 340/350 spine with 150 total up front. All the calculations I have ran a stiffer arrow yields better improvements than a weaker spine.
The stiffer arrow allows more forgiveness for broadhead choice, ability to add more weight up front and will generally tune easier for a compound. However, it comes with the cost of reduced arrow speed.
Either choice you choose you will be fine for whitetail with a fixed blade broadhead just make sure you keep your broadhead sharp. Happy hunting good luck 👍!
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery thanks Lucas! I have gone down the Rabbit hole to build the ideal arrow for whitetail hunting with pulling less than 60 lbs. I appreciate your knowledge on this topic and I am surely open to any knowledge!
I found something interesting with my target/3D arrows the other day. I was shooting 150grains of point weight at 60yard and had a 6”ish group I took out 30grains and tighten that group up to a 3”Ish at 60yards. Don’t over look accuracy for FOC
Very interesting that’s something I’m trying to work out an adequate test method for. If you don’t mind what spine arrow, draw length, draw lb, arrow length and Foc of each arrow? One big problem I’ve personally seen with foc is not having enough arrow spine it might tune okay but the grouping is terrible. But I also have a long draw compounding the issue. Thanks for the comment
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery I’m shooting ps23s 350spine cut at 27” carbon to carbon 120grain point weight with aae max26 (they were free I didn’t buy them so I’m not 100 sure what vane they are) 3fletch my draw weight is like 62lb and my length is like 28ish. Not sure the FOC but I can figure it out if you need it
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery total arrow weight is 388grains, I’m about to build another set a little shorter lighter with I smaller high profile vane.
@@Texaslivinoutdoors I appreciate the info I should be able to calculate foc. How much offset or helical are the vanes best guess? I value others opinion and experiences so thank you for the feedback.
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery like 2degrees
What about a cross wind? Seems that higher FOC arrows readily tip and are no longer in "good flight". I know Ashby talks of smaller fletching.
Yes I plan on talking about cross wind in a future video. You are right the bigger moment arm on the back will push the back of the arrow more than front as a result the tip of arrow will come off axis. Your best defense against cross wind is arrow mass, more mass requires more wind to push that mass. Smaller side profile both in shaft diameter, fletching size and broadhead size will also help in cross wind. Thanks for the comment.
They need to get you on the HUNTR podcast
Thanks for the podcast recommendation, had never heard of it before hand.
Thanks for watching!
I wonder how shaft diameter affects this even though the wall thickness’s are different. You know if stand squarely on an empty pop can it will still hold a considerable amount of weight.
I thought that would change it as well however arrow spine, is really a deflection amount. In my calculations I used inside and outside diameters as well as the spine deflection to determine the arrows elastic modulus, every spine ended up being the same numbers the modulus was changing depending on arrow, I.e high modulus vs low modulus arrows. The difference with a can is its diameter is large compared to its length. Short wide column, column buckling is unique to longer slender columns. So a can usually fails from compression first and crushes nearly perfectly together.
Great series!! I knew you had to have a physics background... I was going to ask if you were one LOL
Background in mechanical engineering. Thanks for watching!
Lucas, What are you using for your Modulus of Elasticity for the carbon arrow? I am seeing various values online. Easton has a value of 46,000,000 PSI on their website, which I think is incredibly high.....but what do I know....
That's an excellent question! I do not assume a fixed value. What I did is back solve for the Modulus. Since arrow spine is the measure of deflection of the arrow over a span of 28inches with a fixed weight value of 880 grams, 1.94lbs, given the geometry of the inside and outside diameters of the shaft we can determine modulus. The assumption is that it would follow a three point bending test.
I think 46,000,000 psi is probably a maximum from Easton. The 4mm axis 250 spine based on outside and inside diameters listed on their website would have a modulus of just under 26,000,000 if the spine deflection of 0.250 inches at 28 inches is assumed correct.
Thanks for the question!
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery So, I back calculated the Modulus using the method you use above for a 340 spine Easton Axis. I got 15,867,601 PSI. This is working out to a critical buckling load of 52.86 lbs for me. Comparing this to your Estimated Impact Forces for the 507 Grain arrow (yes, my arrow is 507.3 grains...but it will be going about 265 FPS), it looks like I will be right on the edge of the critical buckling load! This explains A LOT!!!...and why both of the deer I shot last year had so-so penetration! Holy Cow!!
Glad I was able to provide some input. If you have any further question feel free to ask! Lucas
Do you include the length of your broadhead in the buckling length?@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery
In theory more FOC means the vanes have more correction leverage and therefore you can use a smaller vane or less vane on the back. You have to be very careful about this.. I had a setup with 275 grains up front with 21% FOC. I used 3 heat vanes assuming I could get away with it due to my higher FOC. I was wrong and struggled to make that setup work with a large single bevel on the front. Any deviation in form and hand torque would cause me to miss my target by 4-6” @20 yards. Anyone who’s been shooting for a while can shoot a bare shaft bullet hole consistently through paper in a controlled environment, but how many people are paper tuning hanging out of a saddle or standing in a hang on 20’ up in a tree? It’s a whole different scenario. Don’t just assume because you have high FOC you can get away with a certain vane setup.. you may or you may not. If you are trying something new ALWAYS do the real world testing and see for yourself and never just assume anything because it should work “in theory”. Get a few different vanes and set them up in 3 fletch and 4 fletch configurations and shoot at your maximum effective range. Keep track of your group sizes. The setup with the least amount of vane that gives you the best results should be the vane you decide to hunt with or take to the tournament. Too much vane adds weight to the back of your arrow and total TAW, decreasing FOC, and adds more surface area for crosswinds to push your arrow off track. Too little vane takes away from the forgiveness of your setup and will magnify any breakdown in form. It’s a balance and one that you need to go out and shoot your bow to determine. Just my 2 cents! Really enjoying the videos keep them coming!
Lots of factors at play for sure glad you enjoyed the videos.
Arrow nerds unite!
🍺 United! We ride at dawn haha!
I'm a simpleton compared to you, so this will take repeated viewings before it makes complete sense, but this is great content.
I would be interested to know the poundage of the bow for these tests as a curiosity.
What you're saying is contra to a lot of conventional bowhunting wisdom. I've read sources online from respected big game bowhunting authorities who espouse the more-is-more approach - higher poundage, heavier arrows (as high as 80# 700gr minimum for game like water buffalo), but what you're saying (as I understand it) is that raw power is not as necessary for penetration as straight and consistent arrow flight coupled with sufficient rigidity ahead of the centre of mass to prevent the shaft from buckling on impact, along with a sharp broadhead that isn't too broad.
Will the next video be about how specifically go about constructing arrows to fit this criteria? Is there an easy route to do this, such as with carbon fibre inserts you mentioned? Or is it the more complex matter of tuning the grain to the broadhead to the vanes to the spine, etc?
Thanks again, great content.
Great question! The answer is both yes and no. You can go as heavy as arrow as you would like or a heavy bow draw, but if the arrow does not hit square or if the shaft is too weak to withstand the impact it will fail resulting in less penetration. When compared to a good flying lighter shaft. However, the answer is also no because, if your arrow is flying great and your arrow is stiff enough to withstand impact increasing mass or bow poundage will result in more penetration. Everything is connected it should be a checklist type of evaluation.
Yes, I do plan on a future videos discussing different types of arrow builds that can increase the front arrow stiffness as well as testing of these different shaft into various mediums and animals, and bow tuning.
I do appreciate the questions so please keep them coming, I think questions are important to discuss and advance all our knowledge, including my own.
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery My question after reading that is that surely all of this points to a stiffer spine being better in all circumstances if penetration is the aim, right? In what circumstance would I ever want a more flexible arrow in a hunting context if flexion affects penetration so adversely?
@@ZacisBadatGuitar my recommendation would be go as stiff as you can while getting good arrow flight. That’s your limiting factor how well your arrow tunes and groups down range.
Recurve and traditional bows are much more sensitive to a specific arrow spine compounds can shoot a large range without issue so go stiff in my opinion.
Please send this vid to ranch fairy
At what point does FOC become a hindrance on down range speed / nose diving. I bet there are reasons Easton recommends 10-15% for a hunting arrow
Mathematically I have yet to determine or find a downside to more FOC. With the exception of increased overall mass of the arrow. However, practically arrow stiffness is very difficult to control with higher FOC arrows. The initial launch of the arrow is the problem. FOC its self does not cause downrange instability.
Why does Easton recommend this range? I’d love to see the testing? So far I have not been able to find any information on why. However, their current selection of arrows and components make it very difficult to build an arrow which is outside the 10-15% FOC range. Unless adding a 200 grain plus broadhead. However, they were the first to start making heavier components such as the 75 grain brass hit which suggest they understood weight forward was and is important.
If you have more information than me I’d love to hear it.
Thanks for the comment.
All I’m hearing is I need to shoot a super light, fast, high FOC arrow and limit my shots 😜🫡 200 grain build incoming
Don’t forget most manufacturers have a minimum of so many grains per pound of draw weight. If you blow up your bow it ain’t my fault haha. However I’ll join in on picking on you haha. Take care Mic!
@@Lucas_Palmer_Archery what if I’m running 40lb 🤔 haha I’m just messing around. Keep up the good work Lucas, you’ve always had a way with explaining things in a way that’s easy to understand 😁
Hey it’s legal try it. Stick bow? Haha