Loki's punishment
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- Опубліковано 9 гру 2021
- Loki is tied up with the guts of his son and a snake dripping poison on his face. But the details, and causes, of this punishment, vary from telling to telling.
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit jacksonwcrawford.com/ (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
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I think that poison hit Loki's face at around 14:57
Hmm... seems Loki was offended by Jackson telling this story and shook a bit to knock him over
I agree My God Loki Causing Mischief Thats Good Crawford Caught himself Thank The Gods for that.
Awesome that you left falling down in the video.
All the best to you sir.
Great picture of a Townsend's Solitaire at the beginning.
Man, Dr. Crawford is so wholesome and sympathetic, while also never breaking the academic role he has in all his videos. It's just a pleasure to listen to him ^^
I got my signed copy of the saga of the volsungs and I am very pleased.
My wife got me signed copies of all of your books for my birthday; I highly recommend them all!
Could it be possible that in pre-Christian Scandinavia, their law considers Baldr's brother to be his killer (hence why he was killed for revenge), but the laws changed in Snori's time. Maybe originally Loki was punished for insulting the gods, but later, people couldn't understand why he would be punished for such a trivial thing, but no one blinks an eye when he kills Baldr.
Maybe Sigyn is there, as a sort of double punishment, because the famous evil children of Loki are essentially with a mistress - and both Loki and Sigyn are now reminded of this disloyalty by her imprisonment at his side. Loki must be helped by a person with whom he seemingly doesn't have much love for, yet who bore him sons who were cruelly likewise punished, and Sigyn must stay beside Loki, bailing out the poison for someone who maybe she doesn't care all that much for.
Maybe it was just to be extra cruel? And with a touch of poetic justice to it. Perhaps also speaking that maybe some of the deeds of a man, are also attached to his family, wives and so on, as a lesson to Norse listeners.
I love this take!
There is an equivalent of the story in roman history ; Drusus germanicus who was poisoned because he was a pretender to the throne. Tiberius princeps punished him and also martyred his 2 sons. His wife Agrippina maior shared the fate of her sons, severely whipped and even losing an eye on the occasion.
There is an equivalent of the story in the bible ; rightious Zacharias barachai (zebedeus) was slain by the pharisees (the kings faction) in the sanhedrin (senate). His wife Salome comes complaining to Jesus and asks for reparations, she demands seats for her 2 sons on the left and right hand as Jesus will succeed the throne. Instead Jesus rebukes her and her obsolete, powerless sons.
There is an equivalent of the story in Genesis, where EL (ouranos) is dismembered by Perseus (the warrior, destroyer) and revived as Living earth ( Gaia, a female ) by Theseus (life-giving spirit) hoovering the waters, the workers of evil, twin or non-trustworthy princes (fallen angels).
There is an celestial equivalent of the trinity (father and 2 sons, 3 magi) ; Mercurius companied by Mars and Venus, there is an equivalent in greek mythology ; Hermes , the messenger with compagnons Apollo (tricker, destroyer) and Pan (life bringer, spirit of nature).
Skadi could do this thing with the snake as an act of vengeance, as Loki caused her father's (Thjazi) death. It's a separate story, but maybe there's a connection here, and she decides to take an opportunity to avenge him. By the way, greatly enjoying Dr. Crawford's translation of Poetic Edda - it's a joy to compare this visceral, straightforward, clarifying translation to Russian-language canonical translations that are more obscure and metaphorical.
This was my immediate thought, too. Technically the Aesir managed to meet her demands for weregild in the story she’s introduced in, but if we know anything about Norse myth and legend it’s that feuds and grudges aren’t easy to let go of.
Could be a case where they just needed *someone* to do the snake thing, and Skadi jumped at the chance for getting some measure of revenge, rather than Skadi specifically being chosen to do it.
Well, yeah that would make sense. But Loki was also the only person to be able to make her laugh after that whole ordeal, which in the myths helped lead them to putting the whole thing behind them
Thanks for the intel. A speedy recovery on that almost twisted ankle..🤠
Dr. Jackson's Norse Mythology course just got released on The Great Courses and I happily purchased it! I've been very patiently waiting so I was thrilled to see that it was added to the website!
Jackson Crawford doing the Zoolander face wouldn’t look that different from his normal face, change my mind
@@Rosi_in_space No, Ferrari obviously…
:)
Have you ever thought about publishing an "Essential Norse Myths" book? Gather the material that is essential to the Norse Myths in one book, almost like a "Heathen Bible," for lack of a better word! YOu could do it in several volumes.
Part 1 would be the "cosmological myths." You could open with the "Gylfaginning" section of the Prose Edda (just this section of Snorri, not the whole Prose Edda), followed by the cosmological poems from the Poetic Edda, namely: Völuspá, Hávamál , Vafþrúðnismál, Grímnismál, Skírnismál, Hárbarðsljóð, Hymiskviða, Lokasenna, Þrymskviða, Völundarkvið, Alvíssmál, Baldrs draumar, Gróttasöngr, Rígsþula, Hyndluljóð, Völuspá in skamma, Svipdagsmál, Grógaldr, Fjölsvinnsmál, Hrafnagaldr Óðins, Gullkársljóð. After this, throw in some other Poems, namely: Haustlöng, Merseburg Charm I, Merseburg Charm II, and Þórsdrápa. Finally, end with Skaldskaparmal (third section of Snorri). This could be part 1 of the essential Norse myths.
For Part 2, you could do the Helgi stuff. Start with the Helgi poems from the Poetic Edda (Helgakviða Hundingsbana I or Völsungakviða, Helgakviða Hjörvarðssonar,
Helgakviða Hundingsbana II or Völsungakviða in forna
) followed immediately by Hlöðskviða, Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks, and The Waking of Angantýr.
For Part 3, Niflung cycle. Start with the Niflung poems from the Poetic Edda (Frá dauða Sinfjötla, Grípisspá, Reginsmál, Fáfnismál, Sigrdrífumál, Brot af Sigurðarkviðu, Guðrúnarkviða I, Sigurðarkviða hin skamma, Helreið Brynhildar, Dráp Niflunga, Guðrúnarkviða II, Guðrúnarkviða III, Oddrúnargrátr, Atlakviða, Atlamál hin groenlenzku) followed immediately by Völsunga saga, Ragnars saga loðbrókar, Ragnarssona þáttr, Ragnarsdrápa, and Krákumál. Finally, end with the High German poem Nibulunglied (not Norse, but, obviously related).
Part 4 Earmennric and the Scyldings. Start with the Jörmunrekkr Lays from the Poetic Edda (Guðrúnarhvöt and Hamðismál), followed by Ásmundar saga kappabana, and Gautrek's Saga, some of the Arrow-odd material, and then throw Widsith, Beowulf, and parts of the Gesta Dannorm in it.
It'd be a lot of work, but I bet you could do it.
You'd think that Loki's wife would have grabbed a second basin while she was up one of those times so that she could start filling the second one as she pulled the first one out from under it.
I suspect Loki being tied up started as explanation for Earthquakes (and may even have been another figure that Loki later absorbed) first, and the surrounding myth and characters came later on, and so the need to keep "but sometimes the venom gets on him anyway and he shakes the earth" bit, since it was considered the "core" of the story for some time.
but I am NOT an anthropologist, nor archaeologist, nor any other sort of person who studies this stuff.
she has to hold the basin to catch the poison otherwise it would slip and fall, and its some kind of venom the rots the skin so the basin has to be moved and dumped away, so without any help theres no value in two basins because she cant hold the second and she must dump the first
Earthquakes don’t happen very frequently, so either way she must have done a pretty good job
Fenris, Jormungandr, and Hel all had huge cosmological significance, but their father was low key.
It makes sense to me that Skadi would be the one to tie the snake as she was angry with Loki for the death of her father. A grudge like that never really goes away, even for a higher being such as deities. Or perhaps I am pulling at straws.
I mean given Norse society's huge amount of stories about revenge, it's not that far a leap to make.
The fact you left in that small stumble endears me to you so much. Thats something so easy to edit out but naw, it happened, why edit it out.
Sigyn seemed unhappy that you said that.
I’m glad he was able to catch himself or this would be a feature missing 411 jk I love when Dr. Crawford puts anything up
Thank you for, once again, being concise and thorough with your teachings. Loki is such an interesting character in Norse beliefs.
Dr. Crawford, have you ever considered producing any sort of merchandise, like t-shirts or hats?
He has merchandise in his website
I gasped when you almost fell. Nice save!
Nice.. nobody gasps nowadays.
You should come to Minneapolis to sign books! A lot of Viking fans here 😜.
So happy your books are selling like hot bread!
Anyone who has dealt with old sources knows it’s complicated.
I don't know if I am the first one to point this out, but the audio level on your videos are lower than most other videos on UA-cam. I max out all audio setting on my computer just to hear you. Would it be possible to set the level a bit higher when you edit the videos?
Same issue.
I have an issue with earbuds and varying volume. Dont know yet if it's just his or most etc but to hear him I turn it up when hes talking but sometimes he emphasizes a word etc and it about blows an eardrum lol. Know it's not same exactly.. just feel your pain.
Love to hear ur perspective. Seconding ppl who are saying ur very quiet tho.
This punishment has a definite Prometheus ring to it. I wonder if that is coincidental or if there is some sort of connection?
The specifics and reason for the punishment varies considerably, but is there something older in common, perhaps?
Bought your book! Absolutely love it! Currently trying to learn the Nordic language.
Omigod im having nostalgic feels for the old hardphone in the background. I miss my Cisco, that actually worked consistently.
Another interesting video!
Also good save! ☺️(hope you're ok!)
I just want to say thank you very much for my book! I just got it in yesterday!
I've always wondered where Sigyn came from. There's really nothing about her having other family members (like a father and mother and all that). She just appeared one day and had kids with Loki. Could it be that she was the mistress, and Angrboda was his original wife?
Loki is to compare with Weyland (volund) the blacksmith (celestial Ophiuchus the craftsman). Volund was married with Alvitr (omniscient, all-knowing, celestial to compare with Virgo). To multiply wisdom is to multiply anger (sadness). I suggest that Sigyn (sign, constellation), Alvitr, and Angrboda are all the same personality (virgo).
This was wonderful! I immersed myself in medieval-Tudor England, and I find the Nordic myths/history fascinating. Nordic work is so much more difficult than the much later works. Thanks for the insights!
Family matters from the outside in are always complicated.
Subscribed.
Take care of yourself! Get some rest! I very much enjoy your content but rather not see you if you need a break. :)
Nice save
Rank speculation here: Is it possible that the lack of attestations of Loki in things like place names, archaeological finds, etc. is in some way a function of him being bound under the earth? Presumably Lokasenna and the Death of Baldr are “past events” in the Viking age, could this indicate that Loki is more of a figure of the past and future and not the every day life of the Viking age?
I'd say the more likely explanation is that he simply wasn't one that was widely worshipped, if at all. There's speculation that he was worshipped in the past, but like so many things concerning Old Norse stories, any concrete evidence would be gone. For some reason, modern worshippers include Loki. My view is that that is to fill the role of everyday mischief and change, unlike in the past where change was just considered fate. Loki-worshippers like to point out his connection with Othinn as good enough reason to venerate him, whereas I think the Norse would see him as an enemy of the gods since they were familiar with Voluspa.
Thank you. A great video. Question: shakes are known to have venom and not poison. Venom is referred to as a poison when ingested.., I think. Is this why it is referred to as poison in the poems? Is there a translation for 'venom' from the poem? Thank you.
Townsend's Solitaire @ 1:01?
When will your translation of the Prose Edda be coming out? Late 2023 or early 2024? Thank you so much.
What would you say would be the reasoning behind Loki's involvement in Balder's death? Jealousy? I have looked through both the prose and poetic edda and have not come to a conclusion.
Esau the heir was angry at Jacob because his birth-right (position) was stolen by his younger brother. But to paint the dilemma ; what was Davids involvement in the death of his 'blood-brother' Jonathan ? There is legend that Alexander the great was the real brother of Darius III, the one was destinated to overthrow the other.
Hey, it looks like your backpack is a bit loose. The closer to your body it is the easier it is to carry, and the more it feels like an extension of your body.
Not mentioned but does saxo grammaticus play into this too? Or another complication to variants of myth
I've always wondered why he doesn't use the Gesta Danorum more, seems like a great source for Heathen myth
I love the different sources and the sidebars with the text. Thanks! Also the footnotes about pronunciation. I don't miss Boulder. I was a teen there in the 70's and it's too yuppie and too smoggy any more. But I do miss Colorado. I also grew up on the divide, and my father was from Steamboat. My sister and cousins still live in Frisco and Grand Lake. Grand Lake is to die for, but too much light pollution. But you're videos are a taste of the old West that was only last week. I hated living the flatlands, for sure! I don't miss the WIND!!! I knew one other person at CSU that knew Gaelic when I was studying there. I have to ask, have things changed? Are you able to do obscure linguistics there now? I had three choices, the East, Berkeley or going to Edinburgh. I wish I could have afforded Edinburgh. But when I found out just how heavy the Viking influence had been in Ireland and Scotland, I started learning Icelandic and old Norse. So appreciation!!! THANK YOU!!! I want to buy your books when I can afford them.
Once I heard something about Loki and Ve being the same character. Is it correct?
Loki is identified with Lothur in one source (14th century I believe). Some schoolars have picked up on that and suggest that they might have been seen as the same character mainly (there are some other things that have been suggested to point to this) due to Lothur hardly appearing in any source and only as a part of a trio with Othin and Hønir. Snorri replaces Hønir and Lothur with Vili and Ve in his account of the creation of mankind, and therefore some have suggested they are different names of the same gods. So that is likely the line of thought of Loki and Ve being the same guy.
this is such a sureal combination, cowboy speaks about norse mithology
Need your audio volume increased .
Unless im misremembering -which is more than likely - doesnt Skadi have 2 reasons for hating/disliking Loki?
1 As others have said, the death of her father Thjaz, which to be fair i dont remember being Loki's fault, but im trusting what others say here.
2 It was Loki's idea for her to choose a husband based on viewing only their feet and lower legs, which caused her to choose Njordr instead of Baldr whom she wished for
Seems to me either one could be reason enough, and if both are correct, then she may blame him for a lot going wrong in her life
I also cant help but remember a certain YT Norse Specialist once telling us that we may have less than 5-20% of the myths available to us, time has not been kind in transporting these myths to the modern age
There could literally be hundreds of other stories, poems and so on that we just dont know, which i know is a cop=out, but if there are hundreds of missing stories, we can be certain that in at least a few of those Loki will piss someone off in a few of them.