Magic in the Ancient World, Part 2 (with Dr. Jackson Crawford)
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
- The second part of a conversation with Dr. Jackson Crawford about magic in the ancient Mediterranean and Norse worlds. Check out the first half of this conversation on his UA-cam channel: • Magic in the Ancient W...
That background! What a lovely place for a conversation.
Andrew who runs Religion for Breakfast did his phd thesis on magic in early Christianity and has a few really good videos that touch on some of these topics.
I'm glad Dr. Crawford introduced me to your channel. I often wish there were more people making content like him. There are channels like Crash Course but thats really too general. And other channels like Atun Shei are pretty amateurish. I'm happy to find another channel where its an expert sharing knowledge on their professional subject matter. Maybe in the future you can also share the New Mexican scenery in your background.
Crash Course is also frequently super dogmatic and basically always wrong to a greater or lesser (sometimes outrageous or malicious) extent.
Very unscientific, very ideological. I would not compare to this or Dr. Crawfords channel.
I headed here from Dr. jacks video to catch more information that might be exclusive here
Wow, what a droolworthy collaboration. I would *love* to take a class on the linguistics of magic in various historical cultures from you two!
Father, Son, and Parakeet 😂 I can't unhear this now!
Also, curse tablets are found in Romano-British England, e.g. at Bath and at Housesteads on Hadrians Wall. The ones at Bath were thrown into water - a very common "other" place in the Iron Age culture that the Romans found in England.
Very glad for the recommendation, seems right up my alley. Also, what a total champ Dr Crawford is, hooking his old classmate up like this.
I think the word you're looking for is drengr. :-)
@@RonHelwig haha, indeed. Absolute drengr move
Sadhus or Babas in India is what came to mind to me
That was awesome! Subscribing to Dr Luke's channel.
Really fascinating conversation - just the idea of the 'holy spirit' being a lawyer has a lot of comedic potential!
A thought just off of what Jackson said at 19:00ish about the spoken word being strong and the written word being stronger because it lasts. In ancient times until relatively recently (please correct me if I'm wrong) written text was read aloud, not in the readers head*. Therefore, a text could be considered not to be something that is read, but something that speaks, then a text facing a god (downwards) is effectively yelling the massage at them continually.
*I've seen this presented for an argument for why sentences have become progressively shorter over the last ~7 centuries as prose became the norm over poetry.
Augustine in the Confessions makes a point of noticing that Ambrose reads silently. He points this out because it's such an odd thing for anyone to do.
I think Augustine was was talking about reading texts in a ritual context. I'm sure, say, Cicero reading Plato in his study alone is not going to be reading it aloud. I mean, it does make sense in the general sense of words having power- but written words and characters were often thought of as having power in their own right. Individual letters or hieroglyphs often represented particular principles or spirits. The Egyptians and Hebrews especially were known for this. The Hebrews still do believe that the written word is sacred, and have a whole system linking letters to angels, demons and names of God. Even if that was downplayed somewhat in European culture, writing is still given to mankind by Hermes in Greco-Roman myth and runes by Odinn in the Norse tradition.
@@EzraYalanBenjamin The reason that Ambrose gave for reading silently was that he was reading texts that were not suitable for novices to hear. The implication is that ordinary reading was done aloud.
@@gregcampwriter okay, it has been a long time since I last read Confessions. However, my broader point still stands. I don't think, as per the example above, solitary reading- as opposed to public and especially ritual context- would have been done aloud. I also think that the written word was perceived as having power also, for the reasons I listed.
Excellent interview - big thanks and looking forward to more! First there was the word.
This was a fantastic discussion.
Dr Luke, in the first part of this dialogue (towards the end) you mention that you value input from others. Following up from that, in the story of King Arthur, he pulls the sword from the stone. I think that this is a reference either to alchemy or smithing that Arthur hed learnt from Merlin. The metal to make the sword was smelted from ore, or that the blade was cast in clay and formed by that means. Maybe the term is a form of kenning that was used in retelling after the Viking age in Britain, that is more Dr Crawford's expertise.
At 7:21, is the word you are trying to think of bhikkhu (Pali; the Sanskrit form is bhikshu)? The term means "beggar," and is used in Buddhism to refer to monks (who traditionally were expected to live off of the generosity of laypeople, via the daily almsround). Buddhists traditionally believe giving alms to monks is a meritorious act, which can be expected to lead to blessings, whether in this life or the next.
i thought of the word samaṇa, maybe the English word ascetic as a good translation?
Thanks for pointing this out. I find that Plato’s treatment of otherness is similarly uninformed as the speakers here!
I read that the use of Katadesmos was so common that pipes were constructed with graves so that people could throw in the Katadesmos.
Also worth mentioning, the Muslims called Zoroastrians Majus because of the same term and when they conquered Spain and had to deal with Viking raids they called the Pagans from northern Europe Majus as well. Maybe not a coincidence that we now know the traditions do have common roots if you go back 5-6K years.
How cool are yall.
Even if the greeks in general did not distinguish magic and religion, the philosophers among them were working to provide an alternative view of causality that was explicitly opposed to magical/religious explanations. You won't get the concept of magic until you have something to contrast it with. If all causality is magic, none of it is.
The idea of power here reminds me of the passage in which Gandalf says that Gimli is surrounded by danger because everything has its inherent power, Gimli included.
Probably the most engaging guest so far on the Jackson Crawford channel. Thanks for sharing.
The safari videos seem kind of eerie afterwards though, with the absence of gesticulation. =p
Thank you both for this discussion, it was fascinating. Can't wait to hear more!
Great collaboration. Looking forward to more. Have subscribed here too. Thank you.
14:03 That bit is remarkably similar to what happens if one messes up the pitch accent in the Swedish word "ande". One could easily end up saying "the father, the son and the holy mallard" if one is not used to the language
Its so cool to hear about the beggar priest idea, thats still kind of a thing in the modern online mystic/witch/etc community, though with paypal/patreon and less homelessness of course lol. Humans are humans no matter the era it seems
Always someone trying to make a buck, especially off of religion
Our distinction between magic and religion seems to me likely to be based on Christianity--more specifically, on the worldview of the clergy. What they did was good religion, and anything else was bad magic.
If you go to church and pray that you'll be protected when you go out to sea, that's religion. But if there's a popular belief that you can say a particular rhyme or wear a particular charm and that will make God protect you when you go out to sea, that's magic.
You're doing the same thing, but the former is under the control of priests and the latter isn't.
People like John Dee were educated--at least, as educated as anyone was--and peasants were uneducated, but they both did 'magic', because it was outside of the control of the clergy.
That is, 'magic' seems to mean 'the competitors of we, the priesthood'--rather like the way that Hypatia of Alexandria and a hunter-gatherer are both 'pagans'.
I think the line might also come from christianization trying to stigmatize anything other cultures did, ie anything learned that they did (anything that someone took their life to learn and utilize rather than doing their family craft, you could say, tying together science and magic and religion in the ancient world as literally anything not on the farm or in war or leadership) as heathen/pagan/barbarous/savage etc. So if a priest used an herb on your sore throat, it was something they just kinda learned at monastery and god put the plant there for humans to use, but if a seer or medicine person from another culture did it, it was ungodly "magic". Might explain why we don't see monotheistic magic in modern fiction even though similar practices were done in Judiasm if I'm remembering right (sorry if not!). I think we even see it in as modern of events as the salem witch trials.
Christianity labelled everything pagan as magic and demonic. The old gods and fairies and spirits were now classified as demons. They were having trouble convincing people in a lot of cases which is why they started appropriating pagan things. One of the best examples is the christian cult around Mother Mary in a lot of areas of Europe. There is nothing about that in original christian texts, but for example in Bavaria if you didn't know anything about christianity, you might get the idea that people are mostly praying to a goddess called Mary.
This is probably because many pagan religions had a very important relation to a female goddess of earth and home, and christianity initially had nothing of the kind.
I agree 100%. I am pagan since young age, and when they speak in video about difference about Religion and Magic, I got really confused. It doesn't make much sense to me lol, for me both are part of the same thing. I would say magic belongs to religion. I had to try to think in a christian perspective to get what they were meaning. When Gorton was talking about people complaining about the gods not paying them attention, I felt it so hard lol, and then I realised christians would never say such things. Somehow what is normal for many religions can be unthinkable for Christianity.
Dead relatives/ancestors are the direct connection to the other world, and easier to gain favor instead of a deity. This ancestor veneration could easily go back to the Neolithic, and is still a big deal in most religions today. Good videos, I subscribed instantly and will be sharing with friends.
Oooh! That detail about one of the titles of Jesus meaning "lawyer" reminds me of a video I watched by Dr. Andrew Henry on his channel Religion for Breakfast, in which he talks about the origin of the name Satan, which originally was a title meaning "the accuser".
Fascinating food for thought gentlemen. I am intrigued by the notion that the ancient world did not separate Religion and Magic, like most people do today. I do not separate them either. To me, prayer to the Gods is the same as a magical incantation. Both are petitioning some supernatural power for aid and effect.
Awesome!
Loved the discussion. I'll definitely be following your stuff in the future.
I read that Augutes may be akin to words that mean to grow, to increase
On the “Paraclete” point, the Salve Regina prayer also has “eia ergo advocata nostra” be therefore our advocate. I seem to recall Christ being described as an advocate for the souls at Judgement as well?
Sounds like Plato wasn’t a fan of supernatural racketeering. Nice house you got here, be a real shame if the gods weren’t pleased with its existence.
He was a fan, as long as it was him and his rich patrons doing the racketeering
Sounds like Plato didn’t have much faith in individual sovereignty.
@@thatgirl3960 not at all. Read the Republic, and in a sense he was right. He believed the most ideal system was aristocracy, but that the most beautiful and practical one was democracy, though he noted that the problem with the latter is that people are generally stupid... which is not untrue
It's sadly unsurprising that the ancient Greeks also had to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses.
In spanish people talk of the "mal de ojo" which is a curse that peopel put on people by praising something they have, through envy. To prevent it you have to follow it with "dios te bendiga" (go bless you).
👍
Were you thinking at 7:21 about hijiras, third-sex/third-gender people? I want to say that there was a tradition (or at least a stereotype) that they could show up at weddings and such and demand money or they would curse the event... Maybe also some sort of connection to the Roma and this whole trope of mysteriously wandering communities of strangers.
also αγύρτης is the modern greek word for something like “charlatan” or “quack”
but to me, the word looks like γῦρος (circle) or γύρη (pollen) with an alpha privative…so something like “the unrounded,” or even “the unbending,” with the other one being “the unpollinated.” The latest seems pretty far-fetched, so my guess is something to do with their “unwavering” quality of going door-to-door, or perhaps even their unwavering devotion to their patron deity
I wonder if at 7:20 ish you’re thinking of the brahmacarya, Jackson.
I believe the Jain religion has a similar beggar-priest aspect in India. There's a sect of them which decline to wear clothes as well. They also have strict dietary laws
One famous Greek κατάδεσμος is the Pella katadesmos: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet
So I kinda do study on my own. However folks like Dr. Crawford and yourself have greatly helped me in my research. I like to go beyond just the modern revival movements and explore into history. I found your channel through Jackson Crawford and I really like what you are sharing here. Thank you for that. I was curious if you could help me out and add the spelling of these words so I can try and dig into them deeper. thank you and keep the up the good work :)
3:03 I see you put "maguš" I do see this but I also see modern spelling "magupat" for a Persian priest however I also see "magos". Are these just different words? Or did the word get changed over time?
4:17 how is this spelled please? (can't find it through the googles lol) would it be magike?
Interesting that you talk about the "curse tablets" this is a practice done today in the revival movements. In order to get your words or intent to the divine or the elements. writing, carving or simply "loading" an object with your intent. then burying, burning, casting to the wind or throwing in a large body of water. I can see where inspiration for some of these practices may have come from now by watching this talk.
Regarding your first question, I believe magos (μάγος) is the Greek version of maguš (𐎶𐎦𐏁). It refers to the priest or magician. Magike, as I understand it, is the practice of these priests or magicians. In the way that a mage performs magic, a magos does magike. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.
As for your second question, I believe magike is the correct transliteration, yes. You can find that spelling being used here if you expand the first image: www.etymonline.com/word/magic
the father the son and the parakett. This is hilarious
I cracked up !
Auguary?
I thought the curse tablets were “defixiones.”
Forgive my ignorance, but where does this word come from?
EDIT: sorry, nevermind, defixiones is Latin right?
yeah it's the latin term, he gave the greek
@@elfarlaur thank you
Still summer there.
Not according to my thermometer near Boulder this morning.. it was 28f/-2c I've dug out the fluffy slippers to work in! :-) very much Autumnal in the foothills
@@celtzen Oh, it looked warm in the video, here in Stockholm it's too chilly for just a shirt.
Colorado is weird :-) afternoons can be gorgeous and mornings freezing- specially this time of year, but that's what you get for an area that can be 44c in the summer and -30 in the winter :-) have a great day 😀
@@celtzen I think it is because it is far to the south but has a high altitude, like the Alps in Europe.
@@alicelund147 Very possibly :-) I lived outside Stuttgart and it reminded me a great deal of here in Colorado.
This comment is food for the UA-cam bots.
Is "agurtes" related to "augury"?
"Celestial Advocate" == Intercessor
Good guess! Augury is actually from a Latin root that basically means what it means in English-- the augurs were officials within the Roman government who read omens.
Cthonic god gang!
As someone who has NO training in classical languages, and therefore has the best guesses, could agurtes possibly be related to agora, in that these snake oil sellers went around in society? I'm thinking something like 'travellers of the public arena', something like agora-tes.
Good connection! Agora is actually connected to that ageiro word I mentioned in the video (ageiro means to gather, the agora is the gathering-place), and it may be that an agurtes was originally a gatherer (someone who went around collecting money).
@@wordsafari4611 what about en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori
@@wordsafari4611 could it also be someone who gathered crowds with crying out to passerby to sell their product?
The beggar priest thing rather reminds me of televangelists
san|nyasi noun (pl. same) a Hindu religious mendicant
Jackson’s famous? I better straighten up my shenanigans in the comments, I wouldn’t want to get a bad reputation. Fun, fun, fun guys! Made me think we should get together for a sacrifice or something sometime, and just hang out.
"Original California" ... Coffee isn't supposed to be snorted... well done...
@Jackson Crawford 7:56 Uh, ya, sure, the government of California tries to control people's ideology. Riiight.
In the future, you might want to think twice before insulting your viewers. It doesn't tend to increase your number of subscribers.
The guy used to teach there and be an alcoholic. I think he’s earned the right to poke a little fun at the place. Typical liberal mindset to get offended on other people’s behalf and categorize people by some form of identity when what they’re talking about is geographical location and their relevance toward a political climate not any specific group of people. It was not only funny but spot on from his own perspective.
I’m born and bread in California (Berkeley specifically) and I thought that it was funny. I disagree, and think they both betray some POV that I disagree with; but still...
...it was funny.
@@seadawg93 exactly!
@@gregholmberg2 Thank you for conforming to 'I'm offended!' type.
What Jackson is looking for in an Indian context might be a bhikkhu. They were homeless and lived off of alms. Early Buddhist texts say it's a great source of merit to give alms to a bhikkhu.
The ascetics in India devote their self to their consciousness and rely on the community to share their food. They are not beggars, they are recognised as holy men
the original Kalifornian lol, shots fired. Tho... Plato was adamant about the philosopher king ideal (modernly 'right wing') and critical of how democracy can degenerate and lead to 'all sorts of selfish people who care nothing for the people but are only motivated by their own personal desires and [attaining] power.' which would be Cali and many other places. Of course these two things are ultimately the same: unwavering faith in state as opposed to its true opposite-- self sufficiency and cooperative society. So I see where yur coming from.
Only in part I of the Politeia.In Part II he prefers a kind of republic and democracy.
@@Aurora2097 didnt know that, interesting. There is no doubt Pt I has major truthful elements though.
@@Aurora2097 democracy in his terms No universal sufferage there