Are Resin 3D Printers As Good As You Think They Are ?
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- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- 3d pritning is getting good but how good? will it end Hobby shops?
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I'd compare it to garages. There are guys who can fabricate hotrods, and guys who can buy hotrods. They get along together, and there is a market for both of them.
not so much as there are no companies out there that mass produce hotrods at near the quality that fabricators build them at it just isnt cost effective the people who buy hot rods are for the most part buying them from those who build them unless you have a ton of disposable cash having one built to your specifications is out of most peoples budget so they end up buying what is available on the market
@@paktahn there are high end fabs and low end fabs, high end buyers and low end buyers. And there are miniature creators and buyers on all ends of the spectrum with better equipment and more money.
I think this is an opportunity for hobby shops to start resin printing for their customers, along side the products they carry- they are literally sitting on a gold mine. Not everyone has the space , time and desire to own a 3D printer.
That is a HUGE ask and a completely different skill set for most hobby shop owners. It would be like asking a marathon runner to start deadlifting.
@RedKing you need to have a certain mindset and initial investment to make it work. I should reach out to my local game store and see if they want to do something. I hate the human side of marketing/selling but am pretty handy with a printer.
Even just selling conversion bits would be helpful for a lot of customers. (For that matter, it's likely that even a shop that has an experienced printing expert on the payroll will produce a lot of dud prints; just chop those duds into pieces, and sell the salvageable parts at a discount).
And if you only play skirmish level games the cost is a factor as well. You have to print quite a few models to offset the purchase price so more people offering a print on demand service will help the hobby.
Most printing shops/services have a fixed setting for their prints. Which means cheap resin (mostly ABS-like) and layer heights that make printing faster (0.05 mm). Using more expensive precision resin (Nova3D Red Wax for example) and smaller layer height (0.030 or 0.020 mm) is mostly not an option. "Cleaning" the models is also done in the quickest way possible - by just ripping the supports off. Leaving lots of marks in the worst case.
personally its changed the game for me. i got my first 3d printer 3 weeks ago and its been on almost 24/7 since. in that time ive printed off 2 full armies for kings of war, 1 for age of sigmar and several warband size armies for warcry, reign in hell and kings of war vanguard. i've spent £70 in resin for all that. Had i bought their plastic counterparts we'd be talking a grands worth of minis. the quality is great and the only issue really is the fragile nature of resin when it comes to transporting them around. as you say theres a learning curve and its certainly not for everyone, especially younger gamers, but with the tech being improved constantly as well as prices coming down for printers its inevitable that sooner or later the gaming industry addresses the issue of 3d printing or they're simply going to lose out. i do fully expect to see more companies offering STLs of their minis as well as physical copies in the next few years. Perhaps not GW who will likely ignore it entirely but smaller companies will. it's just another aspect of the hobby ready to be cashed in on, and they'd be daft not to try as it expands in popularity. it'll never replace the hobby shop, but it might make them change how they operate.
a smart hobby shop will run a 3D printer service, and I think i can say fairly confidently that the minis you break in transport are either easily fixed or easily replaced, so it's much less of a concern than, say, a mini that singularly cost you 30-120 dollars to just buy.
Glad to hear you're enjoying your printer! Maybe one day i'll get into it hah
Well GW is a small brain mouth breather , they either destroy a setting before it becomes hugely successful or they come 10 years late to the party, expect a wannabe north korea as they did with warhamm youtube content creators .
@@warmak4576 they've already done everything they can by preventing the use of 3d printed models or parts in their official tournaments...but as this policy extended to 3rd party miniatures for years before that then it wasn't anything new just clarification. That's the extent of what they can do. Hundreds of companies make minis designed to be alternatives to their systems, unless the law changes on copyright then they'll be free to carry on doing it. gw will stick their head in the sand and ignore it while diversifying into far more profitable areas like media and video games.
Personally, as a hobby retailer I'm looking more to investing in high quality printers to print miniatures for customers. No more dead stock? Yes please.
High initial investment? Sure, but then again i've lost thousands on dead stock. eBaying it off for a loss.
And you're the type of business owner who deserves to succeed in the market. I love to see people willing and able to adapt to the changing market. I wish you the best of luck!
And from what I'm hearing, a single resin printer and all the extras needed to get working at home can be gotten for $400-$500. Now obviously a shop banking on this replacing minis is looking at way higher a start up cost, but it might not be as high as initially thought.
Hell, could even do it in chunks to make sure you're not over estimating how many you'll need.
Define high quality printer. EnvisionTEC DLPs? :) Yes, please. Random consumer printer? Nah, not so much.
If I could walk into my local hobby shop with a .stl file and say "can you get this ready for some time next week?" and they be like "yep, i'll give you a call when it's done"..... that shop would basically just take my paycheck, along with the people providing .stl files
I will point out that my FLGS has done exactly this. He has a resin printer and offers to print out miniatures for customers for a set amount 'per buildplate' so now you've got people like myself who can't have a Resin 3D printer due to space issues (studio flat, nowhere to put it that could be considered 'safe') coming in regularly and dropping money on the 3D printing who otherwise would probably be only going in to pick up some paints every so often.
It's horses for courses, sure. But for me my elegoo mars 2 was definitely print and play. I've just finished my first bottle of resin, printed over a hundred minis and had only three fails where I needed to re-level the bed. I gave up on FDM printing because it was a pain in the backside, but resin printing is just bloody easy. Quality wise I have no issues, fine details, sharp enough, no obvious layer lines. I've been painting for 30 years, but I'm just not good enough that I'll ever be constrained by lack of details on the printed models.
Wish I had gone with that brand. I had just shifted from a creality FDM that I was starting to learn and I got their Halot one. So far I have made several smashed packs and can't get anything to stick to the build plate.
@@weaselton there may be several reasons, I suggest joining some discord group. Few first that pop into my mind is, not enough heavy supports.
Right?! and even if there is a fail line or two... you got some green stuff? no big deal
Good to know. I got my Ender 3 to print at 0.02 using a different z rod. Prints with no layer lines, but yeah, lots of tweaking and fails. Time for the Resin Leap.
@@DiavloPL funny thing is I was wondering something along those lines a bit ago.
1:38 The real secret to getting perfect 3D prints.
Watch getting resin on the dangly bits though! Lol
Nice looking prints Luke! Yep, printers are surprisingly good right now, but you gotta be willing to get sticky and smelly to print stuff off.
There are low odor Resin which I use for my 3D printing company, as well you should always wear gloves and keep plenty of paper towel on hand. I have never ever got a drop of resin on myself, and hardly ever get any on my work station. I am careful and wear all appropriate equipment. My Phrozen Sonic Mighty 4K machines all look pristine same as my wash and cure stations. If you have a sensitivity to even the low odor resins, Do as I have done. Purchase a weed grow tent place your machines inside and run a 4'' inline duct fan from the grow tent out your window. It's a cheap setup less then $200.00 and you will never worry about smell. I literally work 4 feet away from my 4 machines which run 14Hrs a day on customers prints and I never smell a thing.
Goobs is stalking every youtube wargaming hobbyist.
horse shit... i wish u bigger channels would stop saying this.. its rubbish.. i run my printer in my living room .. know why it doesnt smell? cus i magically placed it next to a window!!!! thats all u need.. and with water washable resins its a 2 minute wash off and ur done.. no smells.. ive no idea what ur doing to get sticky.. but im guessing its wrong!!! in more ways than one :)
Not that much tbh eco resin hardly smells with a air purifier running if at all
Cleanup with a wash and cure us painless
And anything is better than building a plastic kit
@@snowuk1472 EXACTLY!!! I honestly dont get all the crying about this part.. its literally the shortest part of the hobby.. and ur not sat for fucking hours clipping (AND LOSING) parts off a plastic prison!!
Quality prints Luke, very cool discussion. I also don't think resin printing will put miniature companies out of business, just more options for the home user is all.
I still buy GW products (with my FLGS 20% off discount) when something comes out that I enjoy, or Mantic Games stuff, even though I also print like crazy.
That reminds me my printer spare parts should be arriving soon lol.
Quality prints require quality STLs. :) Models that come close to the commission work of manufacturers like Kimera models, Aradia, Hera models, Journeyman Miniatures and so on are rare.
"I also don't think resin printing will put miniature companies out of business"
They might, not by completely replacing sales, but by replacing just enough that certain miniature companies are no longer profitable. In the last 30 years, how many miniature companies have gone out of business? A LOT! And certainly not only those that lacked quality. It's not just those people that print their own minis, but people that buy 3D prints from licensed sellers. A lot of the smaller companies live on a tiny margin, if that margin evaporates, they go belly up.
@@Cergorach It seems some companies go through Kickstarter more often for that reason. They are offering both. Resin casts and the STLs for printing.
If the figure is lacking that extra sharp detail doesn't worry me. I paint for the figures to look good on the table top in a game and not to be in a painting competition under the microscope.
You know what else? Most other people won't notice it at all.
Everyone wastes their money and time trying to reach perfection and they don't realize it goes unnoticed anyway.
@@dangerous8333 Very good point, I hadn't thought of that
i just got a halot one last weekend and have been nothing but amazed by the ease of use and the quality of the prints, i didn't have super high expectations because it is one of the cheaper printers on the market but i am super happy with it!
I just can’t be bothered printing my own. I’m good with computers,but to me it just feels like it’s another hobby in it’s self. It is part of the experience going into a shop and interacting with people who enjoy the hobby as much as you and buying miniature that are good to go. Will 3D printing make it more of a solitary hobby taking away that interaction?
Same boat for me, I enjoy painting and playing Ive got no interest in learning to use 3D printers
Agreed, there's no way this appeals to me, I want to buy, paint, and play.
I get where you are coming from for sure, but whilst Luke says printers aren't plug and play that's not really telling the whole story.
You buy your printer then there is a learning period of lets say 5-10hrs whilst you figure out how to get things to print. Once you've figured that out though, it really is very easy. If you use the same resin with the same settings there's very little that can go wrong - its almost like using a paper printer, you just hit print and the models come out without any real effort if you're buying pre-supported models which is more and more becoming standard.
I'm not denying there's effort involved (you could call driving to your game store effort lol), but it doesn't have to be a hobby in of itself if you don't want it to be.
In an ideal situation I'd love the two worlds to mix, and to get my 3d printing gear from my local game store. I think with how easy and popular its getting, game stores won't die out, but they may want to change.
You are absolutely right. I do 3Dprint, but love that comradery of fellow collectors/gamers. I will always buy minis as well as print. and yes, printing is a whole other hobby, that just happens to be useful for cheaply adding to the first.
Only if idiots running shops prohibit people using 3d printed models in their shops. And, since it's still pretty much impossible to play miniature war games by yourself, how, exactly does 3d printing make the gaming hobby more solitary? You still have to interact with someone to play the games, whether you do so in a shop or at someone's home. If your only interest in the miniatures is the hobby side of it, i.e. building and painting miniatures, it's already a pretty solitary hobby. You don't need any sort of interaction with others if that's all you're interested in. You can buy miniatures and supplies online, then build and paint them at home. No need to interact with anyone, unless you choose to.
The idea that increasing access to 3d printers will drastically reduce the available interaction at shops is just as nonsensical as the claims internet shops would ruin all brick-and-mortar shops. These things force businesses to adapt so they can continue to compete. If they refuse / fail to do so, then those businesses _DESERVE_ to go out of business, because they aren't interested in fair competition in their market; they expect customers to choose a less rational option for no reason. Yes, the internet did cause some shops to go out of business...those shops that refused to adapt to the changing market. 3d printing will have the same effect, forcing businesses that refuse to adapt to go out of business.
Whether we're talking about increasing access to high-quality 3d printers, or the ability to buy everything we need for our hobbies online, shops are already 100% unnecessary for any of these hobbies, yet they continue to exist. And they will continue to exist as long as they are willing and able to adapt to the changing market.
I've always felt the difference between cast and printing is the difference between 1080 and 1440 resolution, most would struggle to see a difference and that's before you even put paint on.
And yeah you'll often find that due to how resin is as a material it'll look more flat until you get a prime layer on.
But with 8k printers, how much of a difference is there now? I think this video needs a remake - this time with the new 8k printer that was just reviewed 8 days ago. Let's see what difference, if any, there still is when you're using a small 8k screen to resin print with.
@@andrewrichards312 don’t those cost thousands
@@ericluo520 around a grand now, but give it a year or 2 and they'll probably cost what 4k printers do now.
@@ericluo520 600$ for Saturn 2, an 8k printer. 200$ screen replacements every 400-2,000 hours of use depending on the models printed.
Great comparison video! Love that you primed them to do comparison! I'm subbed.
I would love to see an update in 6 months when the photon ultra DLP printer is out.
I’m a non-player painter 3d printing gives me access to a massive spectrum of minis at a very affordable price
You mean you prefer display pieces? Yeah, I also prefer those. And there are some good models around already (75 mm or bigger, busts).
I've been in the 3d Printing hobby for about 5 years. I've done the whole shebang FDM at .08mm and .2 nozzles, 47um Anycubic photon, 35um Sonic mini 4k, and just ordered the 22um 8k. I'm 100% positive that 22um makes resin indistinguishable from traditional mold and superior in other ways.
3:45 While I wouldn't call them layer lines since it seems to be going the wrong dimension compared to the one you pointed out, there are still obvious 3d printer markings giving him a 'third nipple' and wavy muscles
At 3:35 the two prominent lines are layer shifts. That's something that mostly happens because of low grade mechanical components. Cheap build quality. Yes, lower lifts speed can prevent that because it puts less load on the rails and lead screw. But still. Better build quality/better parts would prevent that.
At 3:45 the "3rd nipple" are called voxels. A MSLA printer is using a LCD screen as mask. Forming curved parts though a pixel mask ends up like this. Anti aliasing and a LCD with finer XY resolution can reduce the effect. A Sonic Mini 4K or the upcoming Mars 3 will do better here (35 microns XY resolution vs. 50 Microns on a Saturn, Mono X or anything else with a 4K 8.9" LCD).. You rarely see that on a DLP printer with 25 microns XY resolution. Such a printer is not affordable for many people. So a little sanding has to do the trick.
I think you really made a point here. 3D printing is a hobby on its own. Not everyone has the time, space or is willing to spend hours tinkering with slicers, supports, chemicals and UV lights.
On the other hand, for those of us who enjoy all that mess, 3D printers are a godsend.
On a side note, I don't think there is an issue with the current resolution we get, even with 2k printers. Once painted, it is close to impossible to tell a printed model, if done well, from a mass produced mini. The problem is that it is very difficult to print designs with very intricate detail, fine and fiddly parts that break during the cleaning process anyway, especially while removing supports.
I had loads of issues with failed prints and stuff just not looking right. So spent ages tweaking support settings and lift speeds etc.. now my prints come out amazing. You're right it is a hobby in itself and I love it.
Yes, I picked up an Elegoo Mars a few years ago..
Best tip for new people is be patient, and take your time to perfect your settings in your slicing software.
I waited for a long time until I bought my first resin printer in March 2020. It was a very mixed experience. I quickly learned that the build quality of the machines is not as good. But well, what can you expect for 260 bucks or 450 bucks when professional machines do cost 3500 plus... Layer shifts are a regular occurrence on all of my machines. Best solution (if possible) is to replace the linear rails and slider blocks with better ones. My latest resin printer did not work right out of the box (initial delivery and replacement printer alike) with different malfunctions (z-axis faulty, LCD/board faulty). Still trying to solve the problems with support. Unfortunately the machine I had the highest hope for, with 5.5" 4K LCD for great detail. It was/is a huge disappointment.
@@Holztransistor dam that's shitty to hear, my $200 Elegoo is fantastic and the detail is really high, only issue I've really had with it is when I level my build plate, sometime I use 1 bit of paper and other times 2.
But other than that my first ever print I did wasn't the benchmark it was the Imperial Knight :D
@@mikleman996 My first printer was the LD-002R from Creality. Their support sent me a new linear rail and slider block after I reported problems to them. 2nd and 3rd printer are both Saturn. One is a pre-order model where they used 12mm linear rails. I bought better rails and sliders for that one from a German manufacturer. The other Saturn is from March and this already was built with 15 mm rails by Elegoo. Maybe I also replace those with better ones from Hiwin or Misumi. 4th is an Orange 4K Mono which was delivered in July. It was replaced last week and the new one doesn't work either (LCD doesn't display the layer image, it's just lit). I don't know what their support will come up with. I checked the cable connection, like they suggested. Didn't help. My last mail is still unanswered. Maybe because I had the audacity to ask them when I will have a working printer. Next year? Or never? xD
@@Holztransistor can't say about the customer service of Elegoo but that sounds pretty bad tbh, I was hyped for the Saturn but glad I didn't pre-order... I'll stay away from the Jupiter I think, if they are going to be as bad as Saturn on launch day. :( Hopefully one day you will have a good experience with resin
@@mikleman996 Maybe I was a bit unfair to them and they are really thinking about how they can help me now in the fastest way possible. Sending a replacement was in theory already the highest level of escalation and it was the last printer in their EU warehouse. The new shipment from China is underway but that will take another 2 or 3 weeks. I'll wait until mid next week to see what they have to say.
Luke
The lift speed is one component of the horizontal lines. Resin temp is even more important. Low resin temps are a massive issue.
great call on priming these for the comparison
I disagree with the statement " As soon as you buy a printer, you can not print models like that. It takes time" Nope, as soon as youbuy a printer you can 100 percent get prints like that.
100% agree. I love 3d printing as a hobby but until you can just turn it on, fill with resin and print a file with no fiddling it won't compete with production cast or plastics for the majority of people. But I love chasing the settings and the freedom 3d printing allows me .
Uh, I can. I use the same resin every time and haven't changed my settings since day one. I'm batting like 98% after 7 Liters of Resin.
@@eyflfla I agree, once you find a resin you like and have your settings dialed in from a test print, as long as you have decent supports ( I love pre-supported stls) I just don't get failures.
I've got a Phrozen 4k mini, best resolution on the market. I did literally 2 test prints to calibrate it (With help from the awesome people at ATLASS) and I've been getting perfect prints ever since. I'm on my 8th Liter of resin so far and haven't changed a thing. That's just my anecdotal 2 cents.
How many models have you gotten out of it roughly so far and any minis of note? Just researching for myself as I want to get a photon mono. And it’s hard to know how far the resin goes
My phrozen sonic mini 4k does great with models, like yours about 90% as good as a bought one. I already have a big pile of shame so i don't need more minis but what its great for is small scenery details like torches, braziers, furniture, potions, alllll the little things you might want to decorate your terrain with but otherwise would have to buy or make. Buying them can often be like $1-2 each piece and making them, while its possible, god its a lot of work. Ive only been printing a week and I'm building up an awesome bits box.
Also details can have a big difference depending on the micron level you print your models at. The lower micron level the more details you can capture. For anyone who is clueless a micron level is basically the thickness of the layer being printed.
I recently printed Imperial Scout Troopers from a patreon. All their lines and edges are noticably sharper than FFGs models. I showed my wife some painted examples to identify the production model. No surprises, she thought every printed model to be superior.
I fully agree though, in order to get such results, you have to put in the effort. I don’t think it‘s too far fetched seeing minor manufacturers switch over to a business model of selling .STLs with a smattering of ‚official‘ printing services.
4:26 Good points. I wonder how much closer they get after paint as well.
It's astounding the speed of improvement home printing technology has been having, this quality is just plain bonkers, and i bet with tweaking you could improve it beyond what you achieved.
I have had my 3D printer for 3 days.. im producing models that look EXACTLY like that.. i didnt even run the TEST prints..i printed off a print that allows u dial in ur exposure.... but what do u know.. the suggested exposure was by far the best.. next print was my BREW MASTER... when it printed .. well.. lets just say ive had some amazing moments in life.. this stood up to all of them.. OMG!!!! The quality i was NOT expecting.. what u see on the screen is what u get in ur hand.. and thats like having a fucking super power!!!! I dont know what the hell Luke is talking about.. i have a theory that some of these bigger youtubers are being "incentivised" shall we say.. and with these WATER WASHABLE resins.. MAN!! The process was SO EASY!!! In fact.. i thought i had done something WRONG.. because all of the videos i had watched purported the same shit.. . This hobby was NICHE because of the process.. seriously.. i would allow my kids to do this with supervision.. it took about 2 minutes from printer to cure.. 3 minutes later and i have the mini in my hand... Im making my OWN youtube channel to spread the TRUTH about 3D printing.. cus im sick of these big channels spreading rubbish... ive printed about 19 models in the 3 days.. no fuck ups.. no problems.. GW is in serious trouble.. i dont care what anyone says!!!!
Need to grab yourself the 4k Phrozen Sonic Mini and test out true 4k resolution. I think you'll get close to indistinguishable. Great video, thanks!
Just had a Raven Twin Beastmen Shaman printed off on a Formlabs printer and compared it to the latest Beastmen Plastic Shaman Grashrak, the detail is just as good if not better than the GW model.
One thing no one seems to mention with 3D printing is there are little to no mould (or resin) lines and they either come in one part of up to 3 easily built parts as opposed to the hours it takes to build plastic multipart kits.
For me 3D printing has surpassed companies like GW, I can't imagine paying GW prices ever again when having 3D prints is so much cheaper now.
The future is here.
I don’t think home 3D printing will destroy the industry, it might take a small percentage of revenue away but it won’t destroy the industry. I’d be interested in seeing what the quality is like with the new Anycubic Photon Ultra DLP printer. I just bought the Anycubic Photon mono (picking up the wash and cure station today!). So I’m about to start my journey in resin printing after many years with my Anet A8 FDM printer. I’m not planning on trying to destroy companies, I’m just filing out the gaps in my armies as I can’t justify spending a lot of money on one figure. I do 3D modelling so will be adding more scenic items to make my table more interesting. Thanks for sharing this…we ain’t there yet, but we’re getting damn close!
Wee tip for you Luke, and anyone else doing this, if you pour resin out of those 5 litre tubs try doing it side on rather than straight on like you are doing at 5:35
That should give you a smoother pour rather than that glugging kind of pour you were getting there. Might prevent some mess and spillages.
This works with anything that comes in 5L containers like that, screen wash for your car, washing liquid for your mop bucket. I'm assuming it will work for resin too! 😂
Good video, thanks. From my point of view, the really big advantage of the resin printer is the possibility of customizing figures or designing them self. In Blender, I can add bones to a character and create my own body positions with rigging. This gives much more realistic scenarios than with purchased figures.
spot on, I feel the difference between big companies and smaller ones is the artists and resources they have available to them. Bigger companies use 3d printing and sculpting for prototype models and then rework them before going into traditional production. With the results from your 4k printer I can see the gap closing, the difference is the companies releasing and selling stls. Stls will greatly cut down on packaging waste and cut down on demand. I think in the future we will see traditional releases with stl codes available after the purchase. I'm optimistic, but this is a great comparison.
Remember when inkjet printers destroyed Magic the Gathering?
Counterfeit MTG cards are actually a massive problem and have been for a very long time.
@@Doodlebob563 So has recasting. The subject is about can at home reproductions put your local hobby shop out of buisness.
@@WarlanderTV They can, you were just being 1000% over dramatic about it.
@@WarlanderTV Also if you want to be like that: Remember when home consoles killed the arcades?
@@Doodlebob563 I think you have an axe to grind. Have yourself a wonderful day.
Thanks for you honest opinion as usual
They look great as far as I can see and my first batch of you stuff ships tomorrow I can't wait to use it thanks my friend
Imho 3D printing is a whole separate hobby that takes a ton of time, if you like doing that, no problem. If you don't... It's costly to setup (properly) and maintain, it's messy, it's dangerous (those chemicals are toxic!), and it takes time (with lots of failures). Time = money, so if you don't enjoy the process, it's not as much of a cost savings as people think it is. In theory you can make 3D prints you can't cast, so there is some additional power in that for 3D printers. What I do think is that traditional resin casting shops need to diversify or get left behind in the coming years. Some technology like SIOCAST for example does make producing minis on a smaller scale more competitive with 3D printing. But things like the GW plastic models and assembled PVC models are aiming at a different market segment (that might have some overlap). 3D resin printers need stronger/shatterproof material that is more affordable, there is some stuff out there that is stronger, but significantly more expensive (Siraya tech Tenacious is 2-3 times as expensive then the cheaper resin), but still not even close to HIPS (using plastic glue and not super glue) or PVC. An absolute thumbs up on this video, especially taking the trouble to do the priming, that makes comparison so much more clear then the base resin colors/transparency!
I completely agree 3D printers are not plug and play. I would say once you have a bit of experience with one printer the next printer setup is much easier. Between the cost, the space, the smell, the disposal, the time, and the learning curve 3D will never be for everyone. Personal, I love mine.
The Space Jam shirt is killing me mate!
I think the plug-and-play aspect is what has to come for 3D-printers to challenge commercially produced minis. Before that it will be like you say - 3d-printing is a hobby in itself that you have to invest time in to get the results you want.
I would argue there are 2 types in this hobby. Modelers that game and gamers that model. As a gamer I would field any of the 6 models you showed without hesitation.
With Anycubic bringing a DLP printer to the consumer desktop market, prints are only going to get better from there on out.
I haven't bought a mini since I bought a 3d printer and I doubt I ever will again. That being said I don't war game and I still buy all my paint, basing supplies etc from them. The hobby shop I go too is smart they have doubled maybe even tripled the number and amount of paint ranges, paints brushes etc that they carry over the last year. I also think the pandemic and 3d printers have brought a lot more people into the hobby, so as long as hobby shops adapt and stay flexible they will be fine.
I don't see why so many people are struggling with 3D printing. All my Elegoos were plug and play. Mars, Mars 2, Mars 2 Pro, and the Saturn. Slap the plate on, level it put your vat on, pore your resin in, pick your printer profile out pick your resin profile save slice and pop your usb stick in with your files on it and hit print. Now that's going the pre-supported STL files. Now getting into unsupported stls is a small effort but with Chitubox or Lychee backed up with Photon File Validator you can get supporting your own minis done in no time. Its no harder then taking the time to watch a few You Tube vids. It's not rocket science. As for quality sorry to say but your really down playing it. There is no way some one can walk into a store and look at 2 armies on the table and say that's a 3d printed army and that's from a manufacturer. If someone is picking up your minis and eye fucking them that hard at a local shop to see a layer line under a prime and a base coat I think the issue isn't the mini at that point. But this vids acting like manufactures never produce bad products and are 100% flawless. Ever put together a Forge World kit? 3D printing is easily manufacturer quality and better.
Very interesting comparison, not yet at point of buying a three d printer but have given me more food for thought.
I don't think 3d printing will replace stores, but I do think stores need to adept to add 3d printing to the market, rather than looking at it almost like its a black market for stuff.
The thing that pust 3d printing over the top for me is the sheer variety in stuff, so many content creators out there for decently priced stls. I've had my mars p and mars 2 p for like six months and already printed armies that I have always wanted. I'm not very crafty, so I struggle to customise minis and I could never get them how I wanted, but I'm better at tech and now I can have what I want which is what puts it over for me.
Companies like gw are built on their stranglehold of the industry and they will never willingly let go of that, and it's partly their fault for this "war on printers" mentality.
Also, new DLP printers or 6k res printers will help close down any major issues, but in fairness, just using my little mars' I can happily grab some OPR or archvillan and spend a week printing ducthies or Steelbreakers.
The printing layers are still visible, but do remember that the casted model also started as a 3d print but was also post processed before making the mold which is why it still better than the home 3d printed model
Most of the detail stuff gets blown out of the water when it comes to the paint job. A good paint job can make a middle of the road model look great -- and a bad job can make the best model look horrible. For most people printing for the tabletop, the differences between HIPS or cast models kinda goes out the window once the paint starts flowing. Printing has reignited my love for tabletop and I've been blown away by what even cheap SLA is capable of these days
They're still better than the old metal minis a lot of us are used to! Even the older plastic minis. I can't imagine that the Eldar Guardians are better than their stl equivalents.
A comment on using the settings that came with the printer and their brand of resins. I did that when I bought my first resin printer not long ago (Mono X). For weeks I struggled with failure upon failure. Eventually I printed an exposure finder and discovered the suggested settings were _way_ off. By "way", I mean a recommendation of 2 seconds (transparent resin at 50% UV strength) in actuality needing closer to 5 to reliably print. 4.8 looked really good, 4.4 some slight issues, so I'm currently going with 4.6. I might be able to dial it back a bit and improve sharpness and detail. But, for now, I'm so fed up with prints failing that I'm going with these settings for a while to be able to actually print stuff, as opposed to feeling I'm gambling any time I hit start. Guaranteed prints that could have a bit more detail, is a hell of a lot better than half the prints not coming out at all.
As a caveat I should point out I'm not into minis as a hobby. I mainly just want to be able to print the occasional item for board games that has saved money by only using cardboard cutouts and such, and maybe some larger decoration type pieces. I'll have to see what I feel like now that I'm finally over the "will this damn thing just work already?!" hump.
Came for the plumbers crack. 😂😂😂 Great informational content (pun) as always.
I find that when my resin printers print absolutely perfectly, it's indistinguishable from store bought to the degree that I've had folks ask "where'd you buy that model?", in stores that sell official Games Workshop/Dungeons & Dragons minis. Then again what was said about "what you put into your printer vs. what you get out of your printer" definitely rings true. All of my models are created by professionals who've worked in various industries as 3D modelers, whether that be designers who've worked in film or on video games to ex-Games Workshop employees, usually purchased through Patreon.
I make up sets of 'toy soldiers' to give away, 54mm for kiddies, 1:72ish for those over 7. One thing I get asked for is sci-fi, thus far its Strelets 'Stalkers' sets for 'space pirates', Airfix paratroopers for 'good guys' and ancients for civilians. The rest I have to scratch build. 3D printing looks very promising to fill in all the gaps. May give it a go in a year or so.
Printing is a hobby in it self. And you get access to models you otherwise wouldn't be able to. But the entry cost is cheaper than ever, but the learning curve is pretty steep. Infinite variables.
What resin are you using, what brand, what color does it have, did you shake it before use, what temp is the resin, what temp is the room you are printing in, support settings, printer setting etc etc. Its a pretty daunting task, so many will not even bother, too much work involved. Not to mention, its messy and toxic.
“Most 3D printers will get you 90% of the way there”. I don’t know man….what I’m seeing in this video looks like the 3D printers will get you about 99% of the way there, and the only differences would be noticed under tight scrutiny. I think you made the point - if you didn’t have the resin cast mini right next to it, giving a thorough inspection for potential differences…you wouldn’t have even noticed a difference. I think that makes the argument:
3D resin printing is here.
When Your cleaning the same amount of Print lines as there is flash on the regular resin, I'd say its pretty much there.
Now try this on the Anycubic Photon Ultra! Printers are better every week. But still, they are not as easy to operate as a toaster. Once we get plug and play printers, the conversation may be different but owning a printer is still a hobby. Great hobby, but still.
Looks very close. If I just wanted an army to game with I see no issue with the Prints. For display i can see where the factory resins still have that edge as you noted.
as someone who either leaves mold lines on completely or misses several, I just prefer 3d printing for the fact I'm not wishing to paint beyond tabletop standard.
Imma have to try a bottle of ZMudd resin, ive used Siraya Tech fast, great resin little bit brittle. Elegoo Standard great cheap resin, great detail but brittle. I picked up a couple 1kg bottles of Esun plant based resin a while ago, and they expired bout a month ago, so far its printing out a 75mm Vine Ogre Base and Vine Ogre hollow body from Loot Studios, both look flawless fantastic, also ran a bottle of 2 months expired Elegoo standard grey, and all those prints came out amazing. Elegoo Mars 1 original printer, default settings, laser leveled.
Love the edit within edit moment. Nice trick to break the 4th wall. Your videos are as high quality production as the source material Luke. Been following for a while (I remember you making a table board with beers in Element Games and in your back garden... maybe 2 years ago?) and really impressed by the quality... top of the hobby space. Along with MSP, Guy and a few of the US guys (Adam, Scott). Chapeau!
The new Anycubic Photon Ultra may change that, it be cool if they get you a unit to review or test to do this experiment on that new machine.
I will be honest, at 3 feet away, all painted up, I think both the 3d print and cast models you have will look identical on the tabletop. So, for me, we are there.
For me it is not about beating or even matching professional miniatures. It is about "good enough". Good enough that I can enjoy my army that looks a bit different style than what the main manufacture produces (for example Pirate theme orcs vs GW ironjawz orcs) that cost me a fraction of the price but still look really good on the tabletop. I feel 4k resin printing is there for me as it does not take you out of the game (with low quality prints you can have loss of "suspension of disbelief" or distracting in poor quality that can take away from the game being played).
Let me know when they print in full colour. That will be the real tipping point, no spending hours and hours painting armies.
Take a look at Mimaki color printers. But also, bring some more money.
@@Holztransistor Thanks, I just did. Wow, this type of tech is the real deal to change the hobby market as we know it.
Even the relatively basic colour prints here could be given a quick wash or touch up and straight onto the gaming table.
You'd expect the cost to be ruinous now, but in a few years...
Maybe not many people would buy it to personally use it but it will change the price tag in many stores.
Have you tired Conquest: The Last Argument of Kings? I'm just getting into it and I'm really liking it. There are variants of certain models with scenic bases that I think you might particularly like.
Ill be honest. I’ve got no time to create my own models, print nor faff around with 3D printing.
They do some phenomenal models, but I’m a guy that enjoys buying models the simple way. From the store.
Fair play to the 3D modellers , I love their artwork, but I’m stuck and I don’t mind, with GW.
I’m being honest in telling you that 3d printing for me has been less messy and far easier to produce stunning results than snipping sprues, and messing with plastic cement and bits. Not to mention the micro plastics from scraping mould lines. Plus one of the easiest resins to use is about 50% soybean oil product. So many positives to printing and the cost to produce several hundred minis out the door with a printer is far lower than buying a fraction of them. Many GW models top $120. There are resin 3d printers for that same price now
@@Ijem7v I'm not sure about less messy... You still have to snip supports. Some cleanup with a knife or if the worst should happen, a Dremel. All the while the substance your working with is prone to producing harmful dust and is just generally nastier than plastic models and that's to say nothing of it's smelly toxic liquid state. A lot of STL files come in pieces so you can't even really escape glue sometimes. I definitely would say that my printer gives me so much more freedom than buying from stores that it makes it worth it. But I don't think I would go so far as to call it less messy.
I mean its up to the quality you want. I see no problem with 3d printed minis off my mars 2 compared to molded minis. Once you've got paint on and you're 3 feet away there is no discernable difference. Especially on vehicles.
thats a pro comparison - good work
Not sure what layer height you used? Also now 4K small printers (35nm resolution instead of 50nm) are starting to be available, along with resins designed to capture more detail, the gap will close even further. As you said, it now comes down to the quality and resolution of the STL.
I’ve increased my detail by a lot in my printer by using denser pigmented resins and I still add more pigment to it, also I dial in my exposure settings, over exposure kills details. I have increased my details by about 80% I feel but I should really do a test myself to really how much better I’m getting.
Very interesting topic man, and one I'm honestly really glad to see a video on because I've been curious myself!
I've actually got those ogre models from the Atlantis minis kickstarter, and I definitely thought I saw a difference in depth quality for the recesses compared to my 3d printed stuff - nice to have it confirmed :)
anycubic has an affordable DLP printer coming soon, I will probably get one when other companies start making them but only partially for the quality, and partially for lifespan.
i've got a mate who's supplied me with a few 3d printed minis and they are really good, my issue is that, at least in australia, for that quality you're paying close to the same price as buying a mini. having said that the range of what you can print is much more diverse for 3d printed minis
You should redo this video when the new anycubic Dlp printer come out. Which is soon. DLP is the tech that dentists and jewelry makers use for 3d printing. It should provide a noticeable upgrade over the the current mono screen printers.
And now that anycubic have made a consumer friendly dlp printer you can be sure everyother company will follow suit next year.
Yeah, would like to see that.
I am curious of there is a specific resin required for DLP. My Google search failed me.
@@MarkWidner Not required, though there are some specifically formulated
@@Dstinct not everyone needs a big build plate.
Best part of this vid was dat builders arse !
I can't lie, there are a lot of times when I want to print a model where I question whether I can be arsed with the the process and the time, and end up looking on eBay or similar. But every time, without fail, one look at the cost of the plastic models drives me straight back and i get the printer going. Is resin printing better quality, probably not. Is it a bigger faff, undoubtedly. But the cost is so much more competitive that i am willing to put up with it.
Awesome video as always!. I agree with you, and will go a step further. I don't believe 3D printing will ever replace the shops. I use just a fraction of my minis in gaming, the painting and collecting aspect is the bulk of my collection. I have thousands of minis. As more of a D&D gamer/collector, I collect the fantasy end of things primarily, and will never stop buying WizKids, Reaper, and Warhammer AoS. There will always be a spot in my collections to expand on those, and smaller name creators that I occasionally come across. For me, it's not just about the quality, but also the collecting.
I thought the story, imagery, production and presenting to camera were excellent. I've been printing a long time, and never bothered to dial in for each reel of filament, and kind of don't mind if I stuff up 1/4 of my work. You have inspired me to aim for more quality and consistency
My only issue is people use these slight differences as an excuse for 3d printers being bad, the thing is, is it worth paying 10-15x more for an official model for the sake of a little loss of detail
I'm using a Mars 2 Pro, and the quality of the mini's i'm getting is better than the quality of my painting. So it's all good enough for me !
I would love to see a follow up that checks the durability on casts vs home printed!
You also have to consider the usual monopose of *most* prints, the rigidity and britleness of *most* resins, the difficulty kitbashing, and the more complete armies / coherent style that comes from a single entity.
If you got the stl it's actually even easier to kitbash.and will be a full on custom mode you can print multiplel s and not hobbled green stuff that is a 1 of 1
okay Space Jam shirt. I see you
I'm excited to see how DLP printing possibly becoming more mainstream might change the game. I don't expect we will be getting SLA quality anytime soon though. SLA is expensive as heck and is what companies use for mini masters.
Shit in, shit out has been an adage in the printing industry since Gutenburg first started printing ink on paper.
You also need to use a higher resolution printer. If you use something like the Sonic Mini 4k and use a resin that is more set up for high res printing you have results which can be better than most casts. Most casts come from a mold of a 3d printed part. That process adds what is called a generation to the detail, meaning a slight loss of detail compared to the master print. So if using a high res printer the result should be better, also most master prints are also fairly processed, sanded etc to be the cleanest they can be, never direct from printer.
I love the name of the resin. Anyone remember multi user dungeons?
By the time you've got some paint on it I think the differences are negligible. There are so many variables to take into account with SLA printing; layer height, model orientation, anti-aliasing (a big nope from me on a 2K+ screen), ambient temperature when printing, dialling in the exposure times properly, resin expansion when curing, the list goes on. Even on a relatively cheap printer there is a vast difference between a printer and/or STL that has been configured correctly.
A resin cast is only as good as the master its based on. Layer lines on FW models? I rest my case.
I think for anyone that is willing to put the time and research into it, you'll get results that are on a par with most resin manufacturers, especially once you've thrown some paint on it.
Will it make a dent in the market? Well, thats for the market to decide. I do think that in a niche hobby that focuses on and encourages a "hands on" aspect, it will change the way that some companies do business to a certain degree in the future. I think you'll see companies operating similar to the likes of Heresy Lab, where they'll sell the digital models as well as the physical ones. Not everyone wants the hassle of printing their own models (and even when you're proficient at it, it can still be a frustrating process at times) but for those of us that do; theres a lot to be said for being able to print out models at your leisure.
Can supports taper down like a tree where the branches taper down to the tree trunk instead of coming straight down like a scaffold? It would save a lot of resin.
im betting the resin production models are worked by hand before a mold is made to remove any imperfections so that all the casts made from the master are high quality and better than the original print so if you spend the time and have the skill to work the print it can be just as good and really most people who do high quality resin figure spend a ton of time reworking stuff on the kit so for them 3d printing would be perfect for anyone who does not want to do any re sculpting i would say keep buying figures and skip the 3d printer for now
I think the new DLP printer by Anycubic will be a new leap forward for the quality of 3D printed models. I myself got back into miniatures cuz of the 3D resin printing, I like to design my own minis, print and paint them.
You should really check Anycubic Photon Ultra, next level thing
I think you CAN beat production quality models with a current resin printer(especially 4 and 6ks) but its going to be very difficult. YOu have to really know what you are doing.
I feel like eventually the line of demarcation is going to be the clean up. Sprue vs supports. It's not even a question of models designed for one vs the other, these days everyone is using 3D printing for rapid prototyping before going to a final pass and casting. I doubt anyone is hand sculpting and molding anymore unless it's the boutique selling point
I you own a fancy coffee marker and therefore do you automatically stop buying a coffee elsewhere?
No ? so dose home 3D printing suddenly mean that it’s the death of pre-printed products?
Great vid. I guess the question you are answering is: are printed miniatures good enough to play with or are they good enough to match the very best manufacturing can achieve. Clearly they are good enough to play with, even on the painting I wonder if extra detail at that level limits the painter as much as it helps. However, can we get the stls we need to do this? For somethings there are good files available that can be bought for others not so much. Not many have the skill to generate their own!