It's rare that permission is asked to reuse one of my analysis videos but in this case it was and you all need to know how rare that is in this industry, so huge kudos to CarExpert for acting ethically and I'm happy that my theoretical analysis turned out to be correct. As Paul says it is a pre-prod car. I hope to get a production car and do the testing required to determine exactly what the limits are and what they mean in practice for 4x4 owners. The BYD Shark has huge potential to perform...but only if the software is programmed appropriately. For those talking about the Ecotricity NZ review - Gavin used momentum to ascend the hill therefore reducing the torque requirement quite a bit. I did ask and got permission to use his video in one of mine too!
Watched your video many weeks back, it all makes sense. Though software cant fix the rear axle torque output if it simply isnt enough. I do not think it is a torque output issue though as if with ESP turned off and the rears light up, that indicates its not a torque limit surley and that software is holding back power requested at the rear motors (and probably the front too). It's one of those things where, you have whats on paper and then what actually is happening in real time - one of the big reasons I just want the car in my hands so I can preform said tests myself. I look forward to where the world is going with the introduction of EV to off road market as like it seems you are as well!
@@AllTerrainActionEV agreed, software cannot fix what isn't there, although there can be short-term torque boosts programmed in. The rear lighting up was one wheel only and that was wheelspin, being an open diff torque is equalised across an axle. I found the same on my test, once BTC gives up a wheel spins to infinity. The car should have spun all four wheels, or crawled that hill. The fact it did not indicates there is a problem which I think is, despite BYD's protests, insufficient torque at wheels either becuase the motor cannot generate more, or there is a software threshold that was reached. We'll see.
@@L2SFBC The normal result of BTC giving up (or not been able to maintain brake control) is the result of single wheel of that diff end spinning up yes - I agree. In some vehicles also FULL THROTTLE input will also change the behaviour of how the BTC software responds. We dont know how BYD has programmed that. If there is one thing for sure, I've noticed in most BTC systems if you overpower the brakes capacity and dont sit within, things quickly give up and you simply end up just wheels spinning. There is this very strange condition about BTC that if you learn where the limits are and you provide input only within those limits to power, the BTC system works/aids and you make so much progress on a track. I've found with my experience days with beginners, that when they begin to feel the vehicles weight pull back and wheels begin to slip with forward motion slowing, their immidiate input is always to push the pedal down alot more (expecting more forward motion, like when driving), when infact sometimes its about just holding input at the same position (if anything every so slightly more) and allowing BTC to assist. Because you have driven the car you know what you tested, unfortauntley we havent so I am relying on everyones feedback to understand better, but I am on the side of the vehicle has alot more capability off road than most people are making it out to be currently - and that is probably due to pre-prod software/vehicles. Anxiously awaiting my order.
@@AllTerrainActionEVtraction control is assisting to gain grip with grip then requires more torque wich looks to have failed. If you put oil on a road and then the tyres spin that doesn’t mean oil allows more torque, just less grip.
BYD has provided an OTA software upgrade to offer a new driving model call "power crawl", and the problem is solved. It is amazing how electric cars can solve major problems by just upgrading software.
@@YZJBit pre-production! not like other cars that are already in production! That's the reason why they sent it to be tested! So they can tweak before that car being mass produced.
A software update can fix some things. However if electric motors are maxed out on torque, no software update can fix that. Hardware needs to be adopted to allow electric motors to assist eqch other mechanically - i.e. like a locked diff.
Exactly my thoughts. On a novated lease, the real world cost of this car is the equivalent to a second or third hand $33,000 entry level ute once interest and tax is included. And I only need it to get over the sand. Also, I would like to ditch lugging around a couple of AGM batteries that only get me through 2 days camping anyway.
Excellent explanation Paul, i have ordered one, but know there will be compromises, i dont need it to climb 30 degrees plus, i need it to get my family camping on the beach and to get me to work again on monday. Having owned a GU and GQ Patrol and an 80 series LandCruiser, i can honestly say the shark will be plenty for my needs. My kids don't want to go rock crawling, and nor do i anymore. Moreton and K'Gari will be the most extreme terrain my shark will see.
@@steven1898It can climbed LoL, search videos on UA-cam "byd shark aguenta testes off-road?" It climbed the hill smoothly with ease, carexpert just pre production vehicles
@ BYD gave it to him to review. They want as many pre orders prior to the FBT changes in April. If they weren’t ready for it to be seen they shouldn’t have given it to reviewers.
I pre ordered and agree with this video summation completely, and am very excited about what this Ute will be able to do. He is not saying it is a broken car, he is giving a few thoughts as to why their hill climb failed. It may be an issue upon release, it might not be too. Gotta take reviews seriously. And this one is honest. It may be a preproduction issue, or it might not be.
@@steven1898it is very normal in industry to use pre-production models for early car reviews. If you ever pay attention you’ll see Paul does a lot of follow up reviews accordingly. You’re essentially getting triggered by nothing important.
Dont worry, BYD in China already added a new drive mode called "Max Force" mode in China on some of their SUV's which allow maximum torque at 2km/hr low speed without wheel spin when climbing up slope. I'm sure this will be available on the Shark.
Wow thats great. Having to use the oversized fancy touch screen to change "drive modes" in so many different situations isnt annoying at all. Just basically getting in and simply driving isnt a thing anymore
Paul the one thing being over looked is that, Electric vehicle max torque occurs at 1 rpm. Max Torque in a diesel occurs at around 1500rpm. So a gear deduction system is definitely required to overcome this. I believe Torque vectoring in the early Shark software may be part of the issue.
exactly.... from the get go, electric motor gives out max torque... it'll be down to software to simulate low range to synchronize wheel spin based on the terrain
Yes but when the e-motor makes 370Nm with a small reduction ratio, compared to a Ranger with 500Nm and low range, guess what - the Ranger will have more torque at the wheels.
The shark should have waltzed up it. There’s something in the traction control which was freaking out and stopping it. Electric has maximum torque from a stand still. It’s just a flat line graph on electric motors
Yes, there's a video up of the shark completing this same exact hill. I think the group is " all terrain evs" and he is using a Facebook video from shark owners club. The truck comes to a complete halt on the hill then proceeds the rest of the way up no problems.
Same issue with all single speed electric motor systems. It's a design "feature". You should test them pulling a heavy boat out of water up a boat ramp. Frankly, that's a serious real world use. They definitely need a crawl gear, or a starting clutch, but adds cost and weight. They might need even both to really do well.
What? Electric motors generate max torque from a standstill, there is no need for a gearbox. Particularly if there's no direct engine connection to the wheels.
@@CMurdoch-n3t ICE engines do too mostly. A clutch or automatic transmissions allows the engine to rev up for higher torque production while departing from a standstill if needed. Yes electric motors can produce a better more stable, controllable torque output. To say only an electric motor can do this from a standstill isn’t factual.
@CMurdoch-n3t anyone who has worked with electric motors will understand. Starting load draws phenominal current and they are not designed for that. Easily can be over 1000 amps in this application. Torque is a function of speed, and when low speed the torque is high but actual power output is marginal which is what matters. I have a similar designed SUV and even with 140kw, starting up a hill with a trailer can cause it to stall on takeoff.
@@adriang1ICE engines definitely do not produce max torque from 0 rpm, not from standstill as they will be limited by slip. The gearbox/clutch slipping may allow you to access torque from ICE from standstill, but nothing like an electric motor torque curve. The electric issues will be purely programming (due to limiting current and heat).
Quite funny as just watched BYD techs get the shark up that exact hill with ease. And they made a point of stopping on the way up. Guess it just depends who is behind the wheel.
@@davidm2893 I get it that OP's criticising Paul's prowess offroad. But it doesn't make good sense comparing company technicians with reviewers is my point. It's like saying Toyota-hired race car driver can do better lap times than an average run of the mill car reviewer in a GR Corolla press event. No shi sherlock. Or is it that Op's claiming aussie laymans are better at offroading than Paul AND/OR match BYD techs? If that's true, hats off to you aussies I guess.
I don't believe it's a lack of torque. During the one attempt, the vehicle got almost to the top, stopped, then pulled off again. If it didn't have enough torque to go up with momentum, then it certainly wouldn't have enough to pull off from a dead stop. The problem is almost certainly a software issue, probably an overly sensitive stability control program.
Check out Robert Pepper's analysis if you have time. He feels that the platform should have a higher max torque available on rear motor than front for incline work. But also that there is a lot of software improvement possible with the current hardware and torque balance.
indeed. My thought too. If torque was the issue, it wouldn't be able to climb up the hill, period. It was a combination of tires with low grip and software cutting power.
batteries, much like electric motors, have a "max continuous current draw" and a "max peak current draw", you get peak power for something like 5-15 seconds, then it drops off, it affects all EV powertrains, especially PHEVs because their batteries are smaller than ordinary EVs. if you use the disc brakes to hold position on the slope for 15+ seconds, it gives the battery enough of a breather to give you "max power" again for another 5-15 seconds. it isn't much of an issue when driving on flat ground, because you really only need 5-10 seconds of max power, but when hillclimbing in 4wd you need constant power and constant torque so you're not constantly having to "take little breaks" mid-climb. the "insane torque" in ordinary offroaders isn't because you actually need that much torque, its about gear ratio so you can travel slowly enough to climb safely without stalling the engine. EV motors can handle this fine, IF they've got a big enough battery to draw constant power from. there is a lot you can do with software, but "getting around the laws of physics" is not something software can do, the "BYD/mitsubishi" PHEV architecture needs a full size EV battery in order to be capable of offroading... or you could just follow ford's ranger PHEV example and sandwich an electric motor inbetween the engine and gearbox, or toyota's "48v mild hybrid" example and swap the alternator out for an electric motor.
@@USUG0 driving them. haven't you noticed that accelerating from 0-120 has a significant decrease in power after 80, whereas the "80-120 time" is much quicker if you've been coasting at 80 for a minute or two. its an inescapable consequence of physics, batteries act as charge reservoirs, their continous draw is always lower power than their peak surge when you first start drawing current, it applies to all batteries, i'd really like to see the "evidence that says otherwise" because i've accidentally killed laser diodes thanks to peak surge.
If Blaxland, Lawson and Wentworth, tried to cross the Blue Mountains in the BYD Shark. They'd never get there. They ought to take this thing back to China, and workout how to get it to pull the skin off a rice custard first.
I'll love to have a BYD Shark. The only thing that doesn't resonates with me is the term "pre-production car". While it just has been launched in AU, the car was globally launched and SOLD in Mexico since May and recently other markets. I understand BYD (or any other brand) can tweak/adjust for specific terrains before launching a model. However, a hill, a swamp or any other terrain is pretty much the same around the globe. Tweaking (an existing model in production) for terrains in an specific country sounds to me like some sort of marketing gimmick/scheme from the car industry. I see a comment here about an recent OTA update adding a new terrain mode which sounds like BYD is paying attention to the market and providing solutions. That's great!!!
"It needs more torque to overcome the traction problem" ....Thats the exact opposite of how physics works, isnt it? If you add more torque to a vehicle that doesn't have traction, its just going to lose more traction and spin its wheels. Reducing the torque will give you more traction (hence the wheels stop spinning when traction control is on). The issue here seems like a bad traction control system where it senses any slippage and cuts most of the power & torque to all the wheels to regain traction, rather than transferring the torque to the wheels that have traction. Once it regains traction it sends power to the wheels again but the electric motors sense slippage within a millisecond and cut the power again, causing a cycle of power reduction from the motors until you come to a complete stop.
Thats exactly what I was thinking about traction control cutting power way too much to make the pull. It no way the motors isn't making enough torque. My tundra with the big 5.7 v8 is power but traction control cuts so much torque i can hole it to the floor in a heavy downpour on the hwy and it basically slows down to the point you would think you just ran out of fuel.
Yes, there's a video up of the shark completing this same exact hill. I think the group is " all terrain evs" and he is using a Facebook video from shark owners club. The truck comes to a complete halt on the hill then proceeds the rest of the way up no problems.
I think your final comment is spot on ‘let’s wait for the production release’ I think release of preproduction, engineering prototypes may be a symptom of the new ‘on going software development culture ‘ we’ll just update it ! Releasing too early just creates confusion … wouldn’t have happened in Ford in the 1980/90s. Let’s see. As an aside what impact do off road tyres at the right pressures have in a test like this versus the standard tyre package?
Good work mate, well explained, and those of us considering our first electrically propelled car since our 1980's Tamiya RC will understand that relative reduction and lack of torque from idle when you put a SPEED pinion on the 540 motor :p
Great explanation. Had a 300c Hemi with loads of power but gear ratio reached 80km/h in 1st gear so when I towed a caravan up a steep hill we could not make it with the family in the car. Luckily when 3 adults got out it was enough to get me to the top. Sold the car the following month.
The 0 to 60 time indicates this UTE isn’t short of torque. I think software is actually torque limiting the motors at low speed to stop shredding tyres on the flat. I think your hill start test points in this direction…thanks for the great content
Paul, this was a pre-production vehicle, guess with time some fixes will happen. Also, being that you may not have had enough time with it, perhaps you may not have drove it with the appropriate mode. Looking at Gavin's review, he suffered similarly, though eventually he did go through. I did check out Roberts review, though it was logical, held in comparison with the ICE vehicle, i still think, this is a software issue and not torque effects
Love how Paul is busting out his old engineering hat for this one! This was similar to what I commented in the first review - that rear electric motor has to do all the work on open diffs with such a heavy car. Will need some adjustments by BYD but seems doable. Very good video in the reference too, L2SFBC knows his stuff!
Same platform, BYD has Bao5 Wagon launched earlier than Shark already has front&rear diff lock, rear diff low range, for off-road use. It’s probably a commercial decision to not give them to Shark.
Amazing how this R&D wasn't done ahead. Even more amazing that all it used to require is to press a pedal harder. Now U gotta learn settings and wait on upgrades
Kudo's for explaining the short comings in Shark off-road ability, you correctly identified as relying upon torque at the wheels. I'd like to correct you on a couple of minor errors. You said the Shark had no way to overcome the friction of the gravel on the hill, yet I put it to you that it managed to overcome the gravel friction on level ground - so it is not so much a function of ground resistance (which is not a consideration here), but rather the gradient. In others words, more torque is needed to raise the mass of the vehicle up an incline, not because that incline was gravel. Secondly, torque multiplication goes through reduction gears in gearbox, then transfer case (low range), then final drive reduction, ie the ratio between pinion gear and crown wheel. The differential part of the final drive has nothing to do with gear reduction, it merely allows one axle to rotate at a different speed to it's opposite partner. Thirdly, to say that an incline of 31 degree's is not that steep, is a comment i think a reflection of your novice understanding of off-road driving. I would put it to you that some of the steepest gradients in the Victorian high country are around the 26 to 28 degree incline and anything approaching 30 degree's is very steep and needs to be treated and approached with careful consideration.
OK, to crunch the gear ratio numbers (theoretical) from the information we have. TLDR: Production gear ratio is most likely 15:1, pre-production model tested is most likely 12.9:1. Pretty much the same fixed gear ratio as a Cybertruck. The maths: Tyre size is 265/65/R18 = 2517mm circumference. Top speed of the pre-production car was 186kmh. This is 3100m/min. 3100m ÷ 2.5m tyre = 1240rpm at the tyre. Spec sheet max RPM is 16000 (rear motor). Therefore... 16000 ÷ 1240 = 12.9 So on the reviewed Shark the gear ratio may have been 12.9 : 1 If the production model has a different ratio, which could be implied by the top speed of 160kph, then this can be calculated: 2667m ÷ 2.5m tyre = 1067rpm at the tyre. 16000 ÷ 1067 = ~15:1 For comparison sake, a Tesla Model 3 has 9:1 ratio, and a Cybertruck is 15:1 The Cybertruck is 447 kw and 672 Nm at 3025kg (dual motor). The Shark 6 is 321kw and 650 Nm at 2710kg. Spec for spec you would have to expect that the Shark 6 can do the same sort of off-road stuff that the dual motor Cybertruck could do.
Mmm yeah not buying it. But But I could be wrong please dont crusify me I think it has enough torque and just need software upgrade, still good ute for the price though would still buy it. I would like to be proven wrong on this so please test it again when production vehicle comes out Great work team
@@fatdoi003 im not talking about gear ratios here, rather traction. This seems to be a traction control issue, not a torque issue. Simply test the Shark6 on a steep sealed road that gives you maximum traction and see if it stops or not. If it stops its a torque issue, if it doesn't then its a traction issue.
You say a 31 degree grade "isn't really all that steep". I disagree, 31 degrees is very steep for a vehicle to climb. Baldwin Street, in Dunedin, New Zealand is claimed by some to be the steepest road in the world, and it is only 19 degrees at its steepest. Sure off-road trails or tracks can have hills that are 31 degrees, but they are going to be very challenging to climb. Perhaps you meant a 31 percent grade, which is only 17.2 deg? This probably qualifies as not all that steep.
Nup. Meant 31 degrees. Most proper off-road vehicles can climb much more than that. G-Class for example will do 45 degrees - to have the maximum at 31 is quite low compared to other vehicles in the segment.
Great review for the pre-production unit. Let's hope they'll listen to the common issues and fix it before going full production as torque and low gear ratios are important for high areas above sea levels.
The other bit with your ranger comparison, that also has a torque converter, which multiples torque again. With losses of course. Reduces power and efficiency but multiplies the torque in high slip for starting effort
This is weird because BYD off-road brand products like Yangwang U8 or Fangchengbao are super powerful in hill climbing or any other off-road condition🤔. You can find many off-road videos of BYD Yangwang or Fangchengbao that look ridiculously good. It shouldn't be like this when it comes to Shark 6.
yeah..... ive seen tons of them litteraly burning tires everyday long! a proper offroad vehicle is not supposed to spin tires that much! they need locking diffs not just electric motors alone.
Byd have genuinely capable vehicles ie the leopard 5. They haven't put the same hardware in the shark. What can be expected from a $58k plug in hybrid?
To clarify my understanding, not to pick fault with the video. To apply enough torque at the wheels to "overcome friction" would result in wheel spin. I suspect the intended meaning would be to "overcome inertia" or if you wanted to get technical "acceleration due to gravity" of the vehicle. Or is it referring to friction in some other way such as in a clutch or brake mechanism?
I would have thought it's weight in relation to working against gravity was the problem, not friction. Though more friction with the traction control turned off would have helped. In fact the way it lit up the tires when traction control was turned off contradicted your torque argument. It did seem like the traction control was cutting torque too much. But I do think a low range ratio can only help the system let the vehicle climb. Hopefully they add them.
Nup. As explained in the video - traction control stopped the unloaded tyre, but there wasn’t enough torque to rotate the loaded tyre. The only tyres that spun were the unloaded tyres with limited traction. Because the axles act as open differentials, torque will always take the path of least resistance. Had there been sufficient torque, traction control would have held the spinning wheel and there would have been sufficient torque to rotate the loaded wheel.
It can climbed LoL, search videos on UA-cam "byd shark aguenta testes off-road?" It climbed the hill smoothly with ease, carexpert just pre production vehicles
Great response to your shark review. Thank you. It would be interesting to see what the production version will do but your explanation so far makes sense. Without Low Range, it would beed a much more powerful motor to climb a steep hill from a dead stop.
I’m a bit confused Paul. BYD said this is not a torque limitation and we know the specs claim an achieved standing start from a 31 degree angle, 2-3 times steeper than your test hill, but you went on to explain exactly why it doesn’t have enough torque to get up the hill? Do you not think this is a software issue with traction control cutting power to the wheels? Looking forward to seeing the next video with a production car. Love the channel.
This is a very good question that Paul should answer. BYD state "torque is not the problem", and yet Paul spends 70% of the video explaining torque limitations?
Keep in mind, BYD have a vested interest in the success of BYD, Carexpert has a vested interest selling any car, so can afford a greater level of honesty.
@ BYD are also in a better position to understand the torque limitations of their motors. That 31 degree claim isn’t pulled from thin air. It is tested and needs to perform a standing start 6 times. It’s approximately 3 times steeper than the test hill in this video so I feel like there’s something else going on here.
That email came in after we filmed. The torque limitation is also a more general observation of vehicles like this. And as explained in the video - torque may have been a limiter on our vehicle given it had a higher top speed and may have had a gear ratio that was at the limit of our hill. All will be explained once we test a production car.
He’s right, he says it has plenty of torque at the motor but then doesn’t have the adequate amount of gear reduction after that to increase the low speed torque
9:29 it won’t be the gear ratio, it will be limited by the tyre’s speed rating. Your pre-production vehicle probably didn’t have the speed limiter enabled correctly.
@@YZJB That was my thought - perhaps the production car has a lower speed rating due to a different reduction ratio. While it's not an EV, the RAM TRX that we get has tyres speed limited to 160km/h, but the US version has the same tyres, but with a higher 190km/h speed rating. There may be some market dependent reason ours is geared differently, but not sure.
I'm keen to see the production car. Hopefully, BYD will send you one asap to dispute claims it can't climb hills. Would love to see a sand test aswell !
Odd that CarExpert received BYD's response, and then went on to upload the video anyway, eventhough the main points in the video had been deemed incorrect.
@@_wat2doNot really. There’s a claim from BYD that it’s software. That’s yet to be proven. We also set a deadline for filming and they sent their email after the deadline. Can’t sit around all day waiting for them.
I think it would be a good idea to have a look at the 'ecotricity' NZ review from Gavin. At the very end after multiple failures, his mate eventually made made it up the hill in his Mazda, so Gavin changed the software setting for one last try, and flew up the hill as well. Unfortunately he does not say what he changed, but it did work. His was also a pre production vehicle, still good entertainment however.
Na he used momentum to get up the hill. Paul tests from a stop which is then important test. BYD have a lot of work to do to fix the issue, but it seems doable.
Others have suggested sand or Gravel Mode option. Is the only option to use. But personally I'll never do this type of driving. For main roads and highways I think it will be amazing.
Dont worry about Shark‘s offroad ability，shark bascily share the same platform with Leopard5, that car had 4Lmode also come with front&rear diff lock, so i guess BYD would lunch more powerful offroad vision soon.
Right, or else BYD will get tens of thousands of complaints every day. Of course, every product has some Pros and Cons. As long as the Pros outweigh the Cons, it is worth the price. It's not worth paying extra tens of thousands to win in one aspect .....
According to this analysis then this vehicle could not drive up a steep bitumen road. Let's just wait for BYD to update the software. Silly to release it for testing in its current form.
nice video really prooved your UA-cam name with this one. I gotta think you should preworn people on your next video that the car might be very different with a different gear ratio for your towing video aswell
Would this have had a different result with all terrain tyres? I presume the vehicle is sensing minor slippage due to the highway tyres and reducing torque to the wheels to reduce slippage.
Would be interesting to know what SOC you had during the hill climb. If doing any offroading in electric vehicles it would be best to have the SOC as high as possible. Was the BMS set for SOC 70%?
I'm so surprised another electric car not quite as good in another area it's an Ice vehicle. By the way, is this the electric car version of mansplanning?
Ecotricity NZ encountered similar problems with the BYD struggling up hillsides and getting bogged in mud. He found changing a software setting solved getting up the hill. Many of these problems will be solved by software changes. What makes the Rivian such an off road success is its software which has taken years to develop. It will be the old story "never buy the first year or two of a new model".
I recall you mentioning specifically in the first video that it had very “road “ going tires for a UTE, I wonder if some proper A/T tires would have helped ?
With all the computers modules within the car doesn't the car have the ability to pick the most optimal driving mode by itself? So if you select Mountain but the car thinks Sand mode is better can't it automatically switch between modes?
Yes, do another test with the production unit. Your assumption could be spot on regarding the gear ratio of this specific unit. Im not a "battery head" and love offroading. Will never use this ute to go into the wild. I'll rather trust my ICE vehicle, BUT I wonder if 5% of all 4x4 owners ever use their vehicles to drive on dirt? This BYD will definately attract those 95% who never go "hardcore" 4x4.
1. You should have tested all the terrain modes, simple enough, who knows what software & parameters lay under those terrain drive-mode names and how they will perform on any given driving surface. 2. Most likely culprit is traction control et al i.e. again software & software parameters, as that vehicle with a fully charged battery should have plenty of torque to get up that hill, noting it does not have a traditional gearbox so cant multiply the torque as vehicles with user selectable manual / auto gearboxes do (ie not a fixed step down / up gear reduction like in a diff). 3. Better off-road capable tyres would probably help however if the vehicle terrain / drive / traction / torque control, call it what you will isn't spinning the tyres then it’s not grip, again software & parameters that underly the electric / ICE hybrid drive system. Thanks and back to the video, i think BYD will have a fix for their probably current beta-software release pretty soon, and i expect 'version 1' and many software updates to follow in quick succession. Part of the beauty of electric drives and software control, easy to change the characteristcis through software including supporting hardware upgrades e.g. subsequent upgrades of electric & ICE motors, their coupling interface and so on. Ta.
It seems like current limiting or traction control is the culprit and I'm not convinced a diff lock would have helped. There's a fundamental lack of understanding surrounding how electric motors work. The same reason an electric motor works is also why a generator works and something called back EMF. An electric motor has huge current draw initially which is also responsible for massive torque. The more the motor revs, the more back EMF generated so this diminishes input current. Fortunately, and depending on design constraints you can get a motor to rev up to 40K rpm, which is where your top speed comes in.
"Design Top Speed" is not necessarily the limit of its top speed. It's just a specification criteria that it has been designed to achieve or exceed. BTW, I think for a nominally off-road kind of vehicle, they could have integrated planetary low range gear sets in each axle, and then software limited the motor speed and torque to make it drivable and improve gradability.
The fact it happily fried the tyres with traction control off yells me there is enough torque available and that it's a torque management issue the the computer was holding it back
@CarExpertAus true but that's more likely a product of open diffentals because when a single wheel spins there is a gear multiplication that causes it to spin at twice input speed and therefore half input torque. Normally you will see a wheel spi. Flair on individual wheels than the brake traction clamping but it had none of this. And a stalled electric motor will burn out very quickly that leads me to believe it is more a software issue. That said a 2 speed reduction box would be interesting
If its anything like diesel electric mining equipment the throttle is a speed controller not like normal, so the more u put the pedal down your calling for more speed which will reduce torque out put of the motors
Just need the software update. Basically this car (same as suv version before updated) has no physical connection and front and rear wheels are controlled by independent motors. It may not stay at half of the heel (only rely on rear breaks) or could not provide a steady torque output at beginning.
Great vidios but I beg to differ the torque of all electric motors is different to petrol motors in that it has max torque when the motor is stationary and usely holds that max torque upto a certain rotational speed. Then it begins to fall away. A petrol engine only gets to max torque somwere before it hits max horspower. If the shark doesn't have the torque. A ratio of max torque and gear ratio to climb your hill it would require a different gear ratio or more powerful electric engines, but it has nothing to do with the, when the Torque cuts in....
You are kidding. Stop with the "pre-production" excuses. BYD have been testing this vehicle for over a year and here in Australian for MONTHS. With all the testing done they overlooked the most basic requiurement in a 4x4 - to climb gravel/ dirt hills... give be a break.
@@fatdoi003preproduction or not, I'm wondering if byd has come back saying any information in what they have done to fix this problem in the preproduction one in the real one, the shark has been out since may in other countries like Mexico, how did Aussie end up with a "preproduction" model
I well remember to 'expert' comparison between the Landrover Disco 3 and the Toyota 100. The reviews repeatedly drove the D3 through a ford at high speed until the electronics failed. This in their opinion was a terrible thing because morons could get stranded. They the tried to tow with the landcruiser in reverse and detonated the front diff, but this was considered a minor problem. Any review by Australians has to be looked at with Toyota tinted glasses.
the pre production ute has different gear ratios so it get better range at hwy speeds, yes electric motors do have a best efficiency speed and the likes of tesla is around 65-70kmh. so real world production models wont get the claimed hwy range in the BYD if the pre production was used to obtain the range ratings
I saw many comments how CarExpert review was NOT PAID and it is the HOLY review of the BYD Shark! Well, every influencers get paid, that's how they run their business, but they are not always paid by the brand they reviewed, sometimes they are paid by the competitor brands to sneakily review the rival products and put question mark on potential buyers mind. It's all marketing game ladies and gentlemen. 😎
Yep the shark got a bloody nose but I’ve got a feeling BYD will be very responsive in either finding a technical fix or making big changes in the future, amazing for a first attempt at a Ute and the price
It was a pre production car .. the production and public release of the vehicle will eat that with ease .. overseas they tested the vehicle, its on youtube, with updated versions of software and it climbed a more steep incline than the one here
It has no centre diff and no low range due to only 1 gear this is the correct reason, seperate power delivery works in electric cars on road but it's terrible for offroad, this will need to be addressed in future generations.
This is not a surprise result and BYD already know the Shark has its limitations, this can be seen in the features of some of their other models. The BYD Leopard 5 (Fangchengbao Bao) based on the same platform as the Shark has front and rear lockers and a 4L mode. If just tweaking the software would make the Shark a good off-roader their other products would not waste the money on lockers and 4L. The Shark is most likely being produced at the best price it can be to generate early sales which might explain the absence of mechanical 4x4 features. I would not be surprised at all to see higher models within a year or two that include lockers and 4L. For now the current model is a great road ute with a bit off light offroad work, no different than an all wheel drive Subaru (the Scooby might even take it :).
It's rare that permission is asked to reuse one of my analysis videos but in this case it was and you all need to know how rare that is in this industry, so huge kudos to CarExpert for acting ethically and I'm happy that my theoretical analysis turned out to be correct. As Paul says it is a pre-prod car. I hope to get a production car and do the testing required to determine exactly what the limits are and what they mean in practice for 4x4 owners. The BYD Shark has huge potential to perform...but only if the software is programmed appropriately.
For those talking about the Ecotricity NZ review - Gavin used momentum to ascend the hill therefore reducing the torque requirement quite a bit. I did ask and got permission to use his video in one of mine too!
Watched your video many weeks back, it all makes sense. Though software cant fix the rear axle torque output if it simply isnt enough. I do not think it is a torque output issue though as if with ESP turned off and the rears light up, that indicates its not a torque limit surley and that software is holding back power requested at the rear motors (and probably the front too). It's one of those things where, you have whats on paper and then what actually is happening in real time - one of the big reasons I just want the car in my hands so I can preform said tests myself. I look forward to where the world is going with the introduction of EV to off road market as like it seems you are as well!
Full of excuses!😂
@@AllTerrainActionEV agreed, software cannot fix what isn't there, although there can be short-term torque boosts programmed in. The rear lighting up was one wheel only and that was wheelspin, being an open diff torque is equalised across an axle. I found the same on my test, once BTC gives up a wheel spins to infinity. The car should have spun all four wheels, or crawled that hill. The fact it did not indicates there is a problem which I think is, despite BYD's protests, insufficient torque at wheels either becuase the motor cannot generate more, or there is a software threshold that was reached. We'll see.
@@L2SFBC The normal result of BTC giving up (or not been able to maintain brake control) is the result of single wheel of that diff end spinning up yes - I agree. In some vehicles also FULL THROTTLE input will also change the behaviour of how the BTC software responds. We dont know how BYD has programmed that. If there is one thing for sure, I've noticed in most BTC systems if you overpower the brakes capacity and dont sit within, things quickly give up and you simply end up just wheels spinning. There is this very strange condition about BTC that if you learn where the limits are and you provide input only within those limits to power, the BTC system works/aids and you make so much progress on a track. I've found with my experience days with beginners, that when they begin to feel the vehicles weight pull back and wheels begin to slip with forward motion slowing, their immidiate input is always to push the pedal down alot more (expecting more forward motion, like when driving), when infact sometimes its about just holding input at the same position (if anything every so slightly more) and allowing BTC to assist. Because you have driven the car you know what you tested, unfortauntley we havent so I am relying on everyones feedback to understand better, but I am on the side of the vehicle has alot more capability off road than most people are making it out to be currently - and that is probably due to pre-prod software/vehicles. Anxiously awaiting my order.
@@AllTerrainActionEVtraction control is assisting to gain grip with grip then requires more torque wich looks to have failed. If you put oil on a road and then the tyres spin that doesn’t mean oil allows more torque, just less grip.
BYD has provided an OTA software upgrade to offer a new driving model call "power crawl", and the problem is solved. It is amazing how electric cars can solve major problems by just upgrading software.
It’s amazing how other car makers just do it properly from the outset instead of pushing constant updates…
Why wasn't this done during the R & D????
Says a lot!?😂😂😂
@@YZJBit pre-production! not like other cars that are already in production! That's the reason why they sent it to be tested! So they can tweak before that car being mass produced.
@ just like Microsoft, Apple etc keep sending updates to their products. It shows how businesses are operated nowadays
A software update can fix some things. However if electric motors are maxed out on torque, no software update can fix that. Hardware needs to be adopted to allow electric motors to assist eqch other mechanically - i.e. like a locked diff.
It may not be the best off-road ute, but let's be honest that doesn't matter to the majority of ute buyers.
As long as it can do beach work, I’m sure it will appease many buyers, myself included
@@Bigrig90 yep should be no problem on the beach. it's great on a novated lease will still sell
Matters to me.
Exactly my thoughts. On a novated lease, the real world cost of this car is the equivalent to a second or third hand $33,000 entry level ute once interest and tax is included. And I only need it to get over the sand. Also, I would like to ditch lugging around a couple of AGM batteries that only get me through 2 days camping anyway.
@@icollidgeOnly if depreciation doesn't go off a cliff, which it could go either way depending on future factors.
We need more UA-camrs which aren’t paid and transparent if they are paid videos like car expert.
We need more support for Robert Pepper essentially! He does great work.
But paid by who.
He said last week that he refused the offers of payment from BYD.
This is one of the few mostly unbiased review channels
Nah let the others sell out , and have more people just watch Paul 🙏
lol they offered CarExpert 20k to show off the BYD, he declined as he didnt want the review to be unbiased.,
And this why you are one of the vest! Thank you , Paul, for another brilliant video.
Excellent explanation Paul, i have ordered one, but know there will be compromises, i dont need it to climb 30 degrees plus, i need it to get my family camping on the beach and to get me to work again on monday. Having owned a GU and GQ Patrol and an 80 series LandCruiser, i can honestly say the shark will be plenty for my needs. My kids don't want to go rock crawling, and nor do i anymore. Moreton and K'Gari will be the most extreme terrain my shark will see.
It's gonna struggle to get through the beach sand if it can't get up an incline...should buy a Ford Ranger
@@MrTonaluv I legally cannot buy a ranger, I have too many of my own teeth.pretty sure there are laws about that.
@@MrTonaluv I think you misunderstood the limitations of the vehicle.
@@MrTonaluvnot really, Shark performs great on the flat. Is there a flatter type of off-roading than the beach??
You taking a generator?😂
The amount of crazy comments you got from the pre order crowd was wild. Good on you Paul for staying honest!
Yeh, so honest he couldnt wait to review the actual car and instead review the pre production to get views.
@@steven1898It can climbed LoL, search videos on UA-cam "byd shark aguenta testes off-road?" It climbed the hill smoothly with ease, carexpert just pre production vehicles
@ BYD gave it to him to review. They want as many pre orders prior to the FBT changes in April. If they weren’t ready for it to be seen they shouldn’t have given it to reviewers.
I pre ordered and agree with this video summation completely, and am very excited about what this Ute will be able to do. He is not saying it is a broken car, he is giving a few thoughts as to why their hill climb failed. It may be an issue upon release, it might not be too. Gotta take reviews seriously. And this one is honest. It may be a preproduction issue, or it might not be.
@@steven1898it is very normal in industry to use pre-production models for early car reviews. If you ever pay attention you’ll see Paul does a lot of follow up reviews accordingly. You’re essentially getting triggered by nothing important.
Amazing explanation. Really love the way you present.
If trades can tailgate in it, that's all they need.
😂😆
Dont worry, BYD in China already added a new drive mode called "Max Force" mode in China on some of their SUV's which allow maximum torque at 2km/hr low speed without wheel spin when climbing up slope. I'm sure this will be available on the Shark.
Wow thats great. Having to use the oversized fancy touch screen to change "drive modes" in so many different situations isnt annoying at all. Just basically getting in and simply driving isnt a thing anymore
Is that a software update or mechanical improvement?
@@TheBopper77 OTA, software upgrade. Leopard series have already been upgraded with this mode
@@peterachilles9346 Yeah, like changing gears, locking hubs and selecting 4WD for the transmission isn't annoying at all for ICE 🙄
@@krossbolt4100 omg lmao. How about just selecting drive and go
Paul the one thing being over looked is that, Electric vehicle max torque occurs at 1 rpm. Max Torque in a diesel occurs at around 1500rpm. So a gear deduction system is definitely required to overcome this. I believe Torque vectoring in the early Shark software may be part of the issue.
exactly.... from the get go, electric motor gives out max torque... it'll be down to software to simulate low range to synchronize wheel spin based on the terrain
Yes but when the e-motor makes 370Nm with a small reduction ratio, compared to a Ranger with 500Nm and low range, guess what - the Ranger will have more torque at the wheels.
The shark should have waltzed up it. There’s something in the traction control which was freaking out and stopping it. Electric has maximum torque from a stand still. It’s just a flat line graph on electric motors
not enough torque at the rear wheels. Needs low range.
Yes, there's a video up of the shark completing this same exact hill. I think the group is " all terrain evs" and he is using a Facebook video from shark owners club. The truck comes to a complete halt on the hill then proceeds the rest of the way up no problems.
Same issue with all single speed electric motor systems. It's a design "feature". You should test them pulling a heavy boat out of water up a boat ramp. Frankly, that's a serious real world use. They definitely need a crawl gear, or a starting clutch, but adds cost and weight. They might need even both to really do well.
I laugh at the thought of a BYD stuck on the boat ramp not able to get out... Agree very real use case
What? Electric motors generate max torque from a standstill, there is no need for a gearbox. Particularly if there's no direct engine connection to the wheels.
@@CMurdoch-n3t ICE engines do too mostly. A clutch or automatic transmissions allows the engine to rev up for higher torque production while departing from a standstill if needed. Yes electric motors can produce a better more stable, controllable torque output. To say only an electric motor can do this from a standstill isn’t factual.
@CMurdoch-n3t anyone who has worked with electric motors will understand. Starting load draws phenominal current and they are not designed for that. Easily can be over 1000 amps in this application. Torque is a function of speed, and when low speed the torque is high but actual power output is marginal which is what matters. I have a similar designed SUV and even with 140kw, starting up a hill with a trailer can cause it to stall on takeoff.
@@adriang1ICE engines definitely do not produce max torque from 0 rpm, not from standstill as they will be limited by slip. The gearbox/clutch slipping may allow you to access torque from ICE from standstill, but nothing like an electric motor torque curve. The electric issues will be purely programming (due to limiting current and heat).
Quite funny as just watched BYD techs get the shark up that exact hill with ease. And they made a point of stopping on the way up. Guess it just depends who is behind the wheel.
100% to do with the newer software. It's a shame Paul didn't even offer that as a possible issue.
Yeah. Next time I get stuck somewhere in a BYD, I'll remain happy that at least the BYD techs wouldn't have been stuck at the same place.
Yay!
@ what?
@@khonjel_singh huh ? you need to read that again bud
@@davidm2893 I get it that OP's criticising Paul's prowess offroad. But it doesn't make good sense comparing company technicians with reviewers is my point. It's like saying Toyota-hired race car driver can do better lap times than an average run of the mill car reviewer in a GR Corolla press event. No shi sherlock.
Or is it that Op's claiming aussie laymans are better at offroading than Paul AND/OR match BYD techs? If that's true, hats off to you aussies I guess.
I don't believe it's a lack of torque. During the one attempt, the vehicle got almost to the top, stopped, then pulled off again. If it didn't have enough torque to go up with momentum, then it certainly wouldn't have enough to pull off from a dead stop. The problem is almost certainly a software issue, probably an overly sensitive stability control program.
Check out Robert Pepper's analysis if you have time. He feels that the platform should have a higher max torque available on rear motor than front for incline work. But also that there is a lot of software improvement possible with the current hardware and torque balance.
indeed. My thought too. If torque was the issue, it wouldn't be able to climb up the hill, period. It was a combination of tires with low grip and software cutting power.
batteries, much like electric motors, have a "max continuous current draw" and a "max peak current draw", you get peak power for something like 5-15 seconds, then it drops off, it affects all EV powertrains, especially PHEVs because their batteries are smaller than ordinary EVs.
if you use the disc brakes to hold position on the slope for 15+ seconds, it gives the battery enough of a breather to give you "max power" again for another 5-15 seconds.
it isn't much of an issue when driving on flat ground, because you really only need 5-10 seconds of max power, but when hillclimbing in 4wd you need constant power and constant torque so you're not constantly having to "take little breaks" mid-climb.
the "insane torque" in ordinary offroaders isn't because you actually need that much torque, its about gear ratio so you can travel slowly enough to climb safely without stalling the engine. EV motors can handle this fine, IF they've got a big enough battery to draw constant power from.
there is a lot you can do with software, but "getting around the laws of physics" is not something software can do, the "BYD/mitsubishi" PHEV architecture needs a full size EV battery in order to be capable of offroading... or you could just follow ford's ranger PHEV example and sandwich an electric motor inbetween the engine and gearbox, or toyota's "48v mild hybrid" example and swap the alternator out for an electric motor.
@@JedPotts-jv2ux where did you get that number of 5-15s? Evidence says otherwise.
@@USUG0 driving them. haven't you noticed that accelerating from 0-120 has a significant decrease in power after 80, whereas the "80-120 time" is much quicker if you've been coasting at 80 for a minute or two.
its an inescapable consequence of physics, batteries act as charge reservoirs, their continous draw is always lower power than their peak surge when you first start drawing current, it applies to all batteries, i'd really like to see the "evidence that says otherwise" because i've accidentally killed laser diodes thanks to peak surge.
With a boat you're stuck on the ramp.
With a builder's trailer you're stuck on the steep block.
It's a deal breaking oversight.
add to the list a steep driveway and plenty of steep streets in Oz and this Ute is not going to look like such a bargain anymore.
@@congobongoifythis ain’t gonna struggle with the tarmac lol - could definitely be an issue for towing off road or at boat ramps though
Get a Kia Tasman then..
If Blaxland, Lawson and Wentworth, tried to cross the Blue Mountains in the BYD Shark. They'd never get there.
They ought to take this thing back to China, and workout how to get it to pull the skin off a rice custard first.
Boat ramp gradient is a fraction of this hill climb?
I'll love to have a BYD Shark. The only thing that doesn't resonates with me is the term "pre-production car". While it just has been launched in AU, the car was globally launched and SOLD in Mexico since May and recently other markets. I understand BYD (or any other brand) can tweak/adjust for specific terrains before launching a model. However, a hill, a swamp or any other terrain is pretty much the same around the globe. Tweaking (an existing model in production) for terrains in an specific country sounds to me like some sort of marketing gimmick/scheme from the car industry. I see a comment here about an recent OTA update adding a new terrain mode which sounds like BYD is paying attention to the market and providing solutions. That's great!!!
"It needs more torque to overcome the traction problem" ....Thats the exact opposite of how physics works, isnt it?
If you add more torque to a vehicle that doesn't have traction, its just going to lose more traction and spin its wheels. Reducing the torque will give you more traction (hence the wheels stop spinning when traction control is on).
The issue here seems like a bad traction control system where it senses any slippage and cuts most of the power & torque to all the wheels to regain traction, rather than transferring the torque to the wheels that have traction. Once it regains traction it sends power to the wheels again but the electric motors sense slippage within a millisecond and cut the power again, causing a cycle of power reduction from the motors until you come to a complete stop.
Thats exactly what I was thinking about traction control cutting power way too much to make the pull. It no way the motors isn't making enough torque. My tundra with the big 5.7 v8 is power but traction control cuts so much torque i can hole it to the floor in a heavy downpour on the hwy and it basically slows down to the point you would think you just ran out of fuel.
Yes, there's a video up of the shark completing this same exact hill. I think the group is " all terrain evs" and he is using a Facebook video from shark owners club. The truck comes to a complete halt on the hill then proceeds the rest of the way up no problems.
The Gravity problem..
The Fg points toward the rear, and must be overcome.. with Torque.
I think your final comment is spot on ‘let’s wait for the production release’ I think release of preproduction, engineering prototypes may be a symptom of the new ‘on going software development culture ‘ we’ll just update it ! Releasing too early just creates confusion … wouldn’t have happened in Ford in the 1980/90s. Let’s see. As an aside what impact do off road tyres at the right pressures have in a test like this versus the standard tyre package?
Good work mate, well explained, and those of us considering our first electrically propelled car since our 1980's Tamiya RC will understand that relative reduction and lack of torque from idle when you put a SPEED pinion on the 540 motor :p
Great explanation. Had a 300c Hemi with loads of power but gear ratio reached 80km/h in 1st gear so when I towed a caravan up a steep hill we could not make it with the family in the car. Luckily when 3 adults got out it was enough to get me to the top. Sold the car the following month.
The 0 to 60 time indicates this UTE isn’t short of torque. I think software is actually torque limiting the motors at low speed to stop shredding tyres on the flat. I think your hill start test points in this direction…thanks for the great content
For safety reason, I would love to know how well it does on a wet road with similar incline.
Paul, this was a pre-production vehicle, guess with time some fixes will happen. Also, being that you may not have had enough time with it, perhaps you may not have drove it with the appropriate mode. Looking at Gavin's review, he suffered similarly, though eventually he did go through. I did check out Roberts review, though it was logical, held in comparison with the ICE vehicle, i still think, this is a software issue and not torque effects
Love how Paul is busting out his old engineering hat for this one! This was similar to what I commented in the first review - that rear electric motor has to do all the work on open diffs with such a heavy car. Will need some adjustments by BYD but seems doable.
Very good video in the reference too, L2SFBC knows his stuff!
by adjustment... you mean low range, and more power for the rear motor...
你知道方程豹 8 的暴力模式吗？鲨鱼 6后续只要ota更新一下就可以了 ，电机可以进行精准扭矩控制的。
Same platform, BYD has Bao5 Wagon launched earlier than Shark already has front&rear diff lock, rear diff low range, for off-road use. It’s probably a commercial decision to not give them to Shark.
Exactly. The shark is $58k aud. How much can be expected for this price!
Amazing how this R&D wasn't done ahead. Even more amazing that all it used to require is to press a pedal harder. Now U gotta learn settings and wait on upgrades
Kudo's for explaining the short comings in Shark off-road ability, you correctly identified as relying upon torque at the wheels. I'd like to correct you on a couple of minor errors. You said the Shark had no way to overcome the friction of the gravel on the hill, yet I put it to you that it managed to overcome the gravel friction on level ground - so it is not so much a function of ground resistance (which is not a consideration here), but rather the gradient. In others words, more torque is needed to raise the mass of the vehicle up an incline, not because that incline was gravel. Secondly, torque multiplication goes through reduction gears in gearbox, then transfer case (low range), then final drive reduction, ie the ratio between pinion gear and crown wheel. The differential part of the final drive has nothing to do with gear reduction, it merely allows one axle to rotate at a different speed to it's opposite partner. Thirdly, to say that an incline of 31 degree's is not that steep, is a comment i think a reflection of your novice understanding of off-road driving. I would put it to you that some of the steepest gradients in the Victorian high country are around the 26 to 28 degree incline and anything approaching 30 degree's is very steep and needs to be treated and approached with careful consideration.
OK, to crunch the gear ratio numbers (theoretical) from the information we have.
TLDR: Production gear ratio is most likely 15:1, pre-production model tested is most likely 12.9:1. Pretty much the same fixed gear ratio as a Cybertruck.
The maths:
Tyre size is 265/65/R18 = 2517mm circumference.
Top speed of the pre-production car was 186kmh. This is 3100m/min.
3100m ÷ 2.5m tyre = 1240rpm at the tyre.
Spec sheet max RPM is 16000 (rear motor). Therefore...
16000 ÷ 1240 = 12.9
So on the reviewed Shark the gear ratio may have been 12.9 : 1
If the production model has a different ratio, which could be implied by the top speed of 160kph, then this can be calculated:
2667m ÷ 2.5m tyre = 1067rpm at the tyre.
16000 ÷ 1067 = ~15:1
For comparison sake, a Tesla Model 3 has 9:1 ratio, and a Cybertruck is 15:1
The Cybertruck is 447 kw and 672 Nm at 3025kg (dual motor).
The Shark 6 is 321kw and 650 Nm at 2710kg.
Spec for spec you would have to expect that the Shark 6 can do the same sort of off-road stuff that the dual motor Cybertruck could do.
Mmm yeah not buying it. But But I could be wrong please dont crusify me
I think it has enough torque and just need software upgrade, still good ute for the price though would still buy it.
I would like to be proven wrong on this so please test it again when production vehicle comes out
Great work team
it has more than enough torque from standstill. a difflock would of been a benefit or updated software to traction control
Thanks for the lesson. Your explanation made so much sense. Looking forward to showing mates on weekend how smart I am. Haha
If it is a torque problem, does that mean it would have the same issue on a fully sealed road on a hill of the same incline ?
no matter what gear ratio is, the torque is the same from 1rpm to 21000rpm...
@@fatdoi003 im not talking about gear ratios here, rather traction. This seems to be a traction control issue, not a torque issue. Simply test the Shark6 on a steep sealed road that gives you maximum traction and see if it stops or not. If it stops its a torque issue, if it doesn't then its a traction issue.
@@_wat2do all can be dealt with software updates.....
You say a 31 degree grade "isn't really all that steep". I disagree, 31 degrees is very steep for a vehicle to climb. Baldwin Street, in Dunedin, New Zealand is claimed by some to be the steepest road in the world, and it is only 19 degrees at its steepest. Sure off-road trails or tracks can have hills that are 31 degrees, but they are going to be very challenging to climb. Perhaps you meant a 31 percent grade, which is only 17.2 deg? This probably qualifies as not all that steep.
Nup. Meant 31 degrees. Most proper off-road vehicles can climb much more than that. G-Class for example will do 45 degrees - to have the maximum at 31 is quite low compared to other vehicles in the segment.
Thx Paul, super responsible but informative video
Great review for the pre-production unit. Let's hope they'll listen to the common issues and fix it before going full production as torque and low gear ratios are important for high areas above sea levels.
The other bit with your ranger comparison, that also has a torque converter, which multiples torque again. With losses of course. Reduces power and efficiency but multiplies the torque in high slip for starting effort
This is weird because BYD off-road brand products like Yangwang U8 or Fangchengbao are super powerful in hill climbing or any other off-road condition🤔. You can find many off-road videos of BYD Yangwang or Fangchengbao that look ridiculously good. It shouldn't be like this when it comes to Shark 6.
Easy. Both of them have 4L and front and rear diffs. BYD should at least provide a rear diff for Shark. Shame.
Those vehicles have mechanical diffs and a transfer case. The BYD shark 6 is electric. Apples to Oranges.
yeah..... ive seen tons of them litteraly burning tires everyday long! a proper offroad vehicle is not supposed to spin tires that much! they need locking diffs not just electric motors alone.
@@AD28197 you can also put locking diff on electric motors lol!!!
@@AD28197U8 and the FB dont have transfer case. It uses the same system as the shark. We will find out what is going here.
Thanks for the follow up, they obviously have a lot to learn about real off road driving requirements.
Byd have genuinely capable vehicles ie the leopard 5. They haven't put the same hardware in the shark. What can be expected from a $58k plug in hybrid?
My issue would not be the torque nor grip, I want quality and longevity of which I am not convinced yet.
Very good explanation of what could have been technically challenging for non technical people
To clarify my understanding, not to pick fault with the video. To apply enough torque at the wheels to "overcome friction" would result in wheel spin. I suspect the intended meaning would be to "overcome inertia" or if you wanted to get technical "acceleration due to gravity" of the vehicle. Or is it referring to friction in some other way such as in a clutch or brake mechanism?
Do you think that car companies would test these basic things before releasing a product
The torque is overcoming gravity, not traction.
It will be interesting to see how it does on the two test from a standing start up a steep incline road
The feng cheng bao 8 b has dual range for off road. The bao 5 has diff locks. These 2 features would be great for the shark
Great work guys. Good explanation.
I would have thought it's weight in relation to working against gravity was the problem, not friction. Though more friction with the traction control turned off would have helped. In fact the way it lit up the tires when traction control was turned off contradicted your torque argument. It did seem like the traction control was cutting torque too much. But I do think a low range ratio can only help the system let the vehicle climb. Hopefully they add them.
Nup. As explained in the video - traction control stopped the unloaded tyre, but there wasn’t enough torque to rotate the loaded tyre. The only tyres that spun were the unloaded tyres with limited traction. Because the axles act as open differentials, torque will always take the path of least resistance. Had there been sufficient torque, traction control would have held the spinning wheel and there would have been sufficient torque to rotate the loaded wheel.
It can climbed LoL, search videos on UA-cam "byd shark aguenta testes off-road?" It climbed the hill smoothly with ease, carexpert just pre production vehicles
Great response to your shark review. Thank you. It would be interesting to see what the production version will do but your explanation so far makes sense. Without Low Range, it would beed a much more powerful motor to climb a steep hill from a dead stop.
Gre🎱t overview Paul!
I’m a bit confused Paul. BYD said this is not a torque limitation and we know the specs claim an achieved standing start from a 31 degree angle, 2-3 times steeper than your test hill, but you went on to explain exactly why it doesn’t have enough torque to get up the hill? Do you not think this is a software issue with traction control cutting power to the wheels? Looking forward to seeing the next video with a production car. Love the channel.
This is a very good question that Paul should answer. BYD state "torque is not the problem", and yet Paul spends 70% of the video explaining torque limitations?
Keep in mind, BYD have a vested interest in the success of BYD, Carexpert has a vested interest selling any car, so can afford a greater level of honesty.
@ BYD are also in a better position to understand the torque limitations of their motors. That 31 degree claim isn’t pulled from thin air. It is tested and needs to perform a standing start 6 times. It’s approximately 3 times steeper than the test hill in this video so I feel like there’s something else going on here.
That email came in after we filmed. The torque limitation is also a more general observation of vehicles like this. And as explained in the video - torque may have been a limiter on our vehicle given it had a higher top speed and may have had a gear ratio that was at the limit of our hill. All will be explained once we test a production car.
He’s right, he says it has plenty of torque at the motor but then doesn’t have the adequate amount of gear reduction after that to increase the low speed torque
9:29 it won’t be the gear ratio, it will be limited by the tyre’s speed rating. Your pre-production vehicle probably didn’t have the speed limiter enabled correctly.
Tyres on the car had a T rating. But I’m not sure what’s fitted to the production car.
@ thanks for the reply. Unless the production tyre is different, there goes my theory!
@@YZJB That was my thought - perhaps the production car has a lower speed rating due to a different reduction ratio. While it's not an EV, the RAM TRX that we get has tyres speed limited to 160km/h, but the US version has the same tyres, but with a higher 190km/h speed rating. There may be some market dependent reason ours is geared differently, but not sure.
BYD's response @1:53 was shown for 7 seconds and discussed by Paul for about 2 seconds.....
It arrived after we filmed - so it wasn’t discussed at all.
I'm keen to see the production car. Hopefully, BYD will send you one asap to dispute claims it can't climb hills.
Would love to see a sand test aswell !
Basically if they talked about the BYD response it'd negate the premise of the video title as the issue will be a non issue in the production model.
Odd that CarExpert received BYD's response, and then went on to upload the video anyway, eventhough the main points in the video had been deemed incorrect.
@@_wat2doNot really. There’s a claim from BYD that it’s software. That’s yet to be proven. We also set a deadline for filming and they sent their email after the deadline. Can’t sit around all day waiting for them.
I think it would be a good idea to have a look at the 'ecotricity' NZ review from Gavin. At the very end after multiple failures, his mate eventually made made it up the hill in his Mazda, so Gavin changed the software setting for one last try, and flew up the hill as well. Unfortunately he does not say what he changed, but it did work. His was also a pre production vehicle, still good entertainment however.
They've seen it.
The ecotricity muppet bounced it up the hill with more using momentum than traction. Not good for the vehicle.
Na he used momentum to get up the hill. Paul tests from a stop which is then important test. BYD have a lot of work to do to fix the issue, but it seems doable.
Will it also struggle on a road that is that steep?
Yes, but you could just carry more speed up the hill. Stopping on a hill will be dangerous. Classical
Others have suggested sand or Gravel Mode option. Is the only option to use. But personally I'll never do this type of driving. For main roads and highways I think it will be amazing.
Dont worry about Shark‘s offroad ability，shark bascily share the same platform with Leopard5, that car had 4Lmode also come with front&rear diff lock, so i guess BYD would lunch more powerful offroad vision soon.
Right, or else BYD will get tens of thousands of complaints every day. Of course, every product has some Pros and Cons. As long as the Pros outweigh the Cons, it is worth the price.
It's not worth paying extra tens of thousands to win in one aspect .....
According to this analysis then this vehicle could not drive up a steep bitumen road. Let's just wait for BYD to update the software. Silly to release it for testing in its current form.
Great work on the follow up!
nice video really prooved your UA-cam name with this one.
I gotta think you should preworn people on your next video that the car might be very different with a different gear ratio for your towing video aswell
Would this have had a different result with all terrain tyres? I presume the vehicle is sensing minor slippage due to the highway tyres and reducing torque to the wheels to reduce slippage.
Would be interesting to know what SOC you had during the hill climb. If doing any offroading in electric vehicles it would be best to have the SOC as high as possible. Was the BMS set for SOC 70%?
I'm so surprised another electric car not quite as good in another area it's an Ice vehicle. By the way, is this the electric car version of mansplanning?
Ecotricity NZ encountered similar problems with the BYD struggling up hillsides and getting bogged in mud. He found changing a software setting solved getting up the hill. Many of these problems will be solved by software changes. What makes the Rivian such an off road success is its software which has taken years to develop. It will be the old story "never buy the first year or two of a new model".
I recall you mentioning specifically in the first video that it had very “road “ going tires for a UTE, I wonder if some proper A/T tires would have helped ?
With all the computers modules within the car doesn't the car have the ability to pick the most optimal driving mode by itself? So if you select Mountain but the car thinks Sand mode is better can't it automatically switch between modes?
Yes, do another test with the production unit. Your assumption could be spot on regarding the gear ratio of this specific unit.
Im not a "battery head" and love offroading. Will never use this ute to go into the wild. I'll rather trust my ICE vehicle, BUT I wonder if 5% of all 4x4 owners ever use their vehicles to drive on dirt? This BYD will definately attract those 95% who never go "hardcore" 4x4.
1. You should have tested all the terrain modes, simple enough, who knows what software & parameters lay under those terrain drive-mode names and how they will perform on any given driving surface.
2. Most likely culprit is traction control et al i.e. again software & software parameters, as that vehicle with a fully charged battery should have plenty of torque to get up that hill, noting it does not have a traditional gearbox so cant multiply the torque as vehicles with user selectable manual / auto gearboxes do (ie not a fixed step down / up gear reduction like in a diff).
3. Better off-road capable tyres would probably help however if the vehicle terrain / drive / traction / torque control, call it what you will isn't spinning the tyres then it’s not grip, again software & parameters that underly the electric / ICE hybrid drive system.
Thanks and back to the video, i think BYD will have a fix for their probably current beta-software release pretty soon, and i expect 'version 1' and many software updates to follow in quick succession. Part of the beauty of electric drives and software control, easy to change the characteristcis through software including supporting hardware upgrades e.g. subsequent upgrades of electric & ICE motors, their coupling interface and so on. Ta.
Is the Nissan xtrail e power eforce system better 4x4?
Care to change tyres for offroad of this degree?
It seems like current limiting or traction control is the culprit and I'm not convinced a diff lock would have helped. There's a fundamental lack of understanding surrounding how electric motors work. The same reason an electric motor works is also why a generator works and something called back EMF. An electric motor has huge current draw initially which is also responsible for massive torque. The more the motor revs, the more back EMF generated so this diminishes input current. Fortunately, and depending on design constraints you can get a motor to rev up to 40K rpm, which is where your top speed comes in.
What degree slope in that test hill?
More than it could handle
Perhaps a future version will have gears (like the Porsche used to) extra expense though.
It's about tires for different highway and off road needs when the tires just keep spinning. 4x4 controls and sensors for traction too.
I have a production version sold in Mexico, same 187 kmh top speed so I guess it shouldn’t change on the production version
Thanks Paul. Very informative 👍
"Design Top Speed" is not necessarily the limit of its top speed. It's just a specification criteria that it has been designed to achieve or exceed.
BTW, I think for a nominally off-road kind of vehicle, they could have integrated planetary low range gear sets in each axle, and then software limited the motor speed and torque to make it drivable and improve gradability.
The fact it happily fried the tyres with traction control off yells me there is enough torque available and that it's a torque management issue the the computer was holding it back
It does appear that way, but it was always the unloaded tyre with least traction. Which indicates it couldn’t overcome the loaded tyre.
@CarExpertAus true but that's more likely a product of open diffentals because when a single wheel spins there is a gear multiplication that causes it to spin at twice input speed and therefore half input torque.
Normally you will see a wheel spi. Flair on individual wheels than the brake traction clamping but it had none of this.
And a stalled electric motor will burn out very quickly that leads me to believe it is more a software issue.
That said a 2 speed reduction box would be interesting
@@jasonfields2793would love to see a gear reduction and true diff lock.
Tires also. Put on proper off road rubber also the test was in a standard road tire . Software OTA updates where already issued a retest will be fair.
If its anything like diesel electric mining equipment the throttle is a speed controller not like normal, so the more u put the pedal down your calling for more speed which will reduce torque out put of the motors
Just need the software update. Basically this car (same as suv version before updated) has no physical connection and front and rear wheels are controlled by independent motors. It may not stay at half of the heel (only rely on rear breaks) or could not provide a steady torque output at beginning.
JUST how will this perform pulling a large boat up a boat ramp?
How much to replace the battery?
wouldn't it have exactly the same problem on a steep bitumen road?
Great vidios but I beg to differ the torque of all electric motors is different to petrol motors in that it has max torque when the motor is stationary and usely holds that max torque upto a certain rotational speed. Then it begins to fall away. A petrol engine only gets to max torque somwere before it hits max horspower. If the shark doesn't have the torque. A ratio of max torque and gear ratio to climb your hill it would require a different gear ratio or more powerful electric engines, but it has nothing to do with the, when the Torque cuts in....
Street tires?
Tyres have nothing to do with it, it wasn't spinning them so it wasn't a lack of grip
My mums old subaru on street tires would of made that hill climb 😂
@@SnitchyBug 10 seconds.
@@Spratdragon Is that Subaru lighter or heavier?
@roychang1460 lighter
Has byd not come back with any answer to this?
it's only a pre-production car...
You are kidding. Stop with the "pre-production" excuses. BYD have been testing this vehicle for over a year and here in Australian for MONTHS. With all the testing done they overlooked the most basic requiurement in a 4x4 - to climb gravel/ dirt hills... give be a break.
@@charlessas4138 it's a pre-production car... they can make changes.... can't deal with it? too bad
@@fatdoi003 Just remember there are people desparate for it to fail, they don't want to wait when they can point score now.
@@fatdoi003preproduction or not, I'm wondering if byd has come back saying any information in what they have done to fix this problem in the preproduction one in the real one, the shark has been out since may in other countries like Mexico, how did Aussie end up with a "preproduction" model
I have seen your NZ counterpart go up the hill without a problem. I wonder whether the previous drivers have done something to it.
I well remember to 'expert' comparison between the Landrover Disco 3 and the Toyota 100. The reviews repeatedly drove the D3 through a ford at high speed until the electronics failed. This in their opinion was a terrible thing because morons could get stranded. They the tried to tow with the landcruiser in reverse and detonated the front diff, but this was considered a minor problem. Any review by Australians has to be looked at with Toyota tinted glasses.
Good job Paul.thanks for the simple explanation for people who don’t understand all the these figures.👍
the pre production ute has different gear ratios so it get better range at hwy speeds, yes electric motors do have a best efficiency speed and the likes of tesla is around 65-70kmh.
so real world production models wont get the claimed hwy range in the BYD if the pre production was used to obtain the range ratings
Sooo.. is this fixable on first gen?
I saw many comments how CarExpert review was NOT PAID and it is the HOLY review of the BYD Shark! Well, every influencers get paid, that's how they run their business, but they are not always paid by the brand they reviewed, sometimes they are paid by the competitor brands to sneakily review the rival products and put question mark on potential buyers mind. It's all marketing game ladies and gentlemen. 😎
Can't beat locked or locker diffs and a transfer case. It's that simple. It was worked out over 100 years ago.
Ok, if going up the hill didn't work with traction control, did you try it with traction control turned off? Is that an option?
Yep. Tried that.
@@CarExpertAusIt can climb, search on UA-cam "byd shark aguenta testes off-road?" The did the same hill and test like you did, and climbed with ease
Yep the shark got a bloody nose but I’ve got a feeling BYD will be very responsive in either finding a technical fix or making big changes in the future, amazing for a first attempt at a Ute and the price
Bloody nose or smear? We shall find out when more media try to duplicate the problem
It was a pre production car .. the production and public release of the vehicle will eat that with ease .. overseas they tested the vehicle, its on youtube, with updated versions of software and it climbed a more steep incline than the one here
All interesting points, but are you sure you had the right tires for off-road??😅
It has no centre diff and no low range due to only 1 gear this is the correct reason, seperate power delivery works in electric cars on road but it's terrible for offroad, this will need to be addressed in future generations.
This is not a surprise result and BYD already know the Shark has its limitations, this can be seen in the features of some of their other models. The BYD Leopard 5 (Fangchengbao Bao) based on the same platform as the Shark has front and rear lockers and a 4L mode. If just tweaking the software would make the Shark a good off-roader their other products would not waste the money on lockers and 4L. The Shark is most likely being produced at the best price it can be to generate early sales which might explain the absence of mechanical 4x4 features. I would not be surprised at all to see higher models within a year or two that include lockers and 4L. For now the current model is a great road ute with a bit off light offroad work, no different than an all wheel drive Subaru (the Scooby might even take it :).