I have to admit spending the late 70's trying to find those conan books was difficult. They were not sold on the shelves anymore in most bookshops and you could only find them in second hand bookshops, and that was an absolute treasure hunt. i still recall me and a friend biking around from shop to shop searching shelves of yellowing, dusty tomes and seeking out the conan series. The sight of a Frazetta cover made the heart leap. it took over a year before we both had them all. I love that memory and its connection to Howard, my favorite author.
I would spend summers at the beach during the 70s in NJ, hunting for Conan and any other books by Howard, snatching up any copy written by him (or anything with a Frazetta cover 🙂). That's how I discovered many of his other characters such as Bran Mak Morn, Kull, Solomon Kane, and El Borak.
Same here but I’m sure it was much harder here in the uk not the holy grail but more like rocking horse 💩, not the same now eBay has taken all the fun out of it😢
The "mixed up versions" were my introduction to Conan as a teenager. I gobbled those 12 books up in no time,not even realizing where the pastiche began and howards original work ended. I adored those books and frankly I am eternally grateful for the efforts made by DeCamp/ Carter and Nyberg to flesh out the history of my favorite literary creation. Yes, l am in complete agreement with the nameless person you referenced. But i really look forward to your refreshing your ancient thoughts onnthe reread of those mixed up conan stories.
OMG I choked on my drink with the comment "Nobody would add their own fiction into Lord of the Rings, unless your Amazon..." Immediately upvoted for that comment alone :)
I must admit that I was introduced to Conan via the old dC&C series. I did enjoy them, they were fun. Later, I learned about the original Howard stories, and discovered that they weren't quite the same. I found that the Howard stories were more "realistic", if that is the right word. They worked better, and felt more natural. I did feel a bit offended to learn that the stories I read when I was younger were not all truly original Conan. I guess I have mixed feelings about pastiches these days. For a while I was really into non-Fleming Bond. So, while I am a staunch defender of original Conan, I won't criticize others for going further afield.
I,too, discovered Conan from the pastiche versions, and I found them sometimes good, sometimes not so good! I lost interest until Arnie turned up in 1982, which rekindled my interest in the character. It was you Mr Vaughan, who got me into getting the Del Rey Conan books and I love them all!
I'm looking forward to revisiting Conan. So many great stories. Tower of the Elephant, The Scarlet Citadel, Red Nails, Beyond the Black River just to name a few.
Gnome press was mostly active in the 50s I believe. Growing up with the Lancer editions, I never questioned their editorial and creative decisions…I didn’t understand how weird that was till hearing you and a few others discuss it. Back when i took for granted that Carter and Camp were doing us a favor by expanding Conan's adventures.
Love Howard and his Conan. His is the best but I also love the DeCamp -Carter series as well as many of the novel that came afterwards. That was a great series and filled in some gaps to make novels. You are right and wrong. Love the REH show.
I discovered REH and Conan via those ACE paperbacks. So for me it is canon....I know, I know...but that's how I first read Conan. 😁 Also...it gave us those FANTASTIC Frazetta covers!
Without the Lancer paperbacks, I would never have been introduced to Robert E Howard. At the time deCamp & Carter claimed they were putting together a workable time line for Conan. Honestly I was sold by the Frazetta covers first which made me read them all out of order. I see your point tho! But as your friend said, We were reading them in the late sixties. Now we can get them either way! I must say I enjoyed rereading just the Howard run more than ever! Thanks as always!
I’m in agreement with you, Michael, BUT I grew up reading those De Camp paperbacks and for nostalgic reasons I wish I would have kept my copies. I recently was able to find all the Tarzan paperbacks, and hopefully one day I’ll come across the Conan paperbacks. But for Cimmerian September I’ll be reading the Del Rey 3 volumes.
As physical objects, I think they're great. They've got the best cover art of any Conan reprints ever. As for the contents, I'll always go for pure Howard, restored texts as as they were in the Del Rey editions. I don't rate de Camp/Carter/pastiche stuff too highly. Some is alright (John Hocking's work is solid) but none of it equals Howard, and everything I've read of de Camp indicates he was rather contemptuous of Howard's work and basically just latched onto Conan because he thought he could exploit it for sales. It worked out pretty well for him.
I have a great fondness for the Lancer/Ace series of Conan books, since they were instrumental in my finding Conan in the 70's, as with so many people I have known. I love to read Howard's original stuff in the Wagner or Del Rey series because they are superior and the genuine character by his creator. None of that taints my fondness for those early paperbacks, which I go back and read with great pleasure. I do understand and appreciate your points, but for me, I'm content that the originals and the Lancer/Ace versions exist.
My preferred way of read the Conan stories is through the Del Rey volumes. I own many of the Ace paperbacks as well. The Lancer/Ace series popularity I feel is due to the magnificent Frazetta covers,and keeping Howard’s name alive. His iconic art defines how I see Conan in my minds eye. Those books have a certain nostalgic appeal. Good or bad. It brings me back to “study hall” in eighth grade during the 80’s, falling asleep reading the essay on the Hyborian Age. Keep up the great content. Thank you
I applaud your madness. I haven’t read the De Camp/Carter books since I was a high school kid in the early 80s. The school librarian once lifted Conan of Aquilonia out of my hands, held it between forefinger and thumb (as if it was dirty), looked at the cover, then read the blurb and handed it back with a look of disdain in her eyes. I felt judged… but didn’t care. I think I’ll join you in your madness.
You have some good re-reading ahead of you. My introduction to Conan and S&S: My 7th grade English teacher was a Conan fan. Something I didn't know at the end of the school year, when he handed me a big brown-paper grocery bag with the top rolled up and said, "Read these this summer." Inside were all the Lancer Conan books. That summer, I read 'em all. It was a pretty awesome experience, but by the end of book 12, I was burned out on Conan. However, I tried out other REH books--the El Borak and Kirby O'Donnell and Solomon Kane stories--and I've been hooked for life.
It’s easy to thumb your nose at the de Camp - Carter series but it’s a very good set of books. They never tried to hide the fact they had added to the Howard material. The contents list all stories along with the author and if memory serves me correctly de Camp explained why this series was being published with pastiche fiction added. Even if de Camp - Carter committed a mortal sin this is the series which saved Conan and Howard from obscurity. The Gnome published Conan series came first but was never as popular as the latter Lancer/Ace series. Remember imitation is the best form of flattery.
I think the only way I can describe the prose in the original Conan stories is "drinkable," as in alcoholic beverage. So inebriating. I don't care for L. Spaghetti de Campy or Lame Carter; even as a kid I sensed something off in the pastiches. I, do, however like Karl Edward Wagner and Poul Anderson a lot. Frazetta and Vallejo drew like Old World masters; their covers were simply explosive to my imagination. I forget the name of the Filipino artist who did so much of the artwork in the black-and-white comics, which I devoured: simply amazing. (I'm also a huge Richard Corben fan.) Thanks, Mr. Vaughan. As a little kid, before the Net, you had to Indiana Jones your way into finding/discerning the original Conan stories, each one like a little golden monkey. I remember there being no one I could ask, and I had to glean my info. from the frustrating, often cryptic intros.
The figure of Conan from the cover of Conan the Adventurer, drawn by Frazetta, should be made into a statue and set on the city limits of Cross Plains, Texas. That would be a suitable tribute to Robert E. Howard.
Great video!!! Ready for Cimmerian September to begin. Michael, you are THE MAN! Look forward to your insight on the comparison. The Frazetta covers and Boris covers are true works of art. To have those in poster size to hang on the wall would be amazing. So ready for September to start. What a way to start the school year.
I have to admit, I do have a soft spot for the Ace/Lancer series, because that's how I first read Howard's original stories, after being introduced to the character in the Marvel comics series. And those covers just can't be topped. That said, you're absolutely right. deCamp and Carter should not have mixed their own stories in with the originals. Even back then, I knew they stood out like a sore thumb, that had been hit repeatedly with a hammer. I do have that great hardcover and the Del Rey set in a series of ebooks. So, I'm all set.
I can't wait and will re-read them unedited too. The German versions of the de Camp and Carter edits and pastiches all had different Arnold Schwarzenegger covers xD.
I’m probably sticking with my Kindle edition. It has 17 out of 20 Conan stories. The God in the Bowl, The Black Stranger, and The Vale of the Lost Woman are unavailable due to copyright.
While I agree with every aspect of your argument regarding mixing in other authors, I just have so many fond memories of hunting down and trawling through old book shops while on holidays in the 80’s( my partner not so much) to gather my collection of Conan paperbacks that I can’t read the masters work any other way, though like you it has been a while, keep up the great work and say hi to Roger for me
I never read the Lancer/Ace paperbacks, but I'm old enough to remember them on bookstore shelves when I was a kid - I guess they would have been the Ace editions by that time. But they had competition, or an immediate successor, in the Berkely paperbacks, originally edited by Karl Edward Wagner and published I think from 77-79 or so. I had and read two of those when they came out - Red Nails and The People of the Black Circle, each with four stories and a cool fold-out poster that duplicated the wraparound covers (whch weren't Frazetta or Boris but were still pretty awesome). Anyway that series had about 9-10 volumes, not all of them Conan, but all nothing but Howard I think; I've added a few more to my collection but don't have them all. And this series never gets talked about today. Surely oh wise sage of all things Cimmerican, you must know this series? Anyway that's really all the Howard I've read, shamefully. I would like to get the Del Rey series but I'd like to get the hardcovers and I'm too cheap for those so I've been vacillating for a while, hoping I'll get lucky and find them cheap. Meh, someday.
I agree with you 100% about those books. I read them in the 90s as well. I'm also going on ancient memories. They were fun. I liked them, even the non-Howard tales. But I didn't just read them. I reread them many times as I worked my way through the comics. I tried to stay as close to both the book and comic chronologies as possible. I would often reread a book story that preceded or was after a comic tale. However as the years went by, and I got more into hunting down every Howard book I could find. I found myself rereading Howard's Conan more and more. I'll be sticking with my Del Rey books for this one.
I will admit I have a soft spot for the old 70's versions of Conan. I had read a few of Robert Jordan's books, but I read the "Howard" stories in around '94 or '95. I will say I don't want to mess up my soft spot by reading them again. I have the Del Rey Conan set and it's perfectly good. No pastiche finishes to stories or remakes of other books. Since I didn't know any better, I was ok with those back then. Now....I've read the real thing so there's no point in the "wish" versions. I keep those old ones for the covers and that is about it.
Yeah, I get it. However, de Camp kept the series alive through the '50s and early 60s. Granted Carter wasn't the best thing to happen to Conan, but he kept it going through the late '60s and early '70s. This was heady stuff as a teenager first encountering these works in the mid to late '70s. I've read a LOT worse pastiches than those slim old Frazetta covered books. I can see what people got excited about when I finally reread Howard's work as published, but they did keep the stories in the public eye through some very lean literary times.
de Camp & Carter have gotten a bad rap these past couple of decades or so. They wanted to flesh out the Cimmerian's story from start to finish using as much Howard material as they could and filled out the rest. Was it perfect? Nothing is, but they tried to do Howard honor IMO, and while nothing is better than the original, de Camp & Carter's work was fun and entertaining.
Thank you man for writing this! Since your posting represents my own thoughts on this matter exactly, you my good sir just saved me a lot of tipping ;)! Once again many thanks, Merci beaucoup & vielen Dank!
Iirc my first Conan story was Marvel comic's #19 Hawks from the Sea which credits REH as the creator of Conan. Which led to me finding Ace's Conan of Cimmeria. And the first story I read was The Curse of the Monolith (not REH), which I thought was fantastic. Next was The Frost-Giant's Daughter, which I think is the first pure Howard story I read. Also fantastic! Years later I would get 3 of the Berkley hardbacks which only contained REH's originals. And found it somewhat surprising that they were not published that way all along.
I picked these up 30 years ago when I was 16 and first getting into painting because I wanted the Frazetta covers. I've only gotten to reading them this summer. To me they are unreadable.
I haven't read the Lancer/Ace collection since the late 80's. In high school had lent my set out and only got the first 6 back before reasons. Wasn't until late last year or early this year I replaced the half I was missing. Think mentioned before had wanted to do comparison with the Del Rey edits but didn't get around to doing it. Would be nice to fit in the third volume of the Del Rey collection, I've yet to read, in September but not sure yet what my reading habit is going to be quite yet as I get back in to reading more than comics and slow read some Stephen King as the last month or so has been.
De Camp and Carter were apparently attempting to fill in P. Schyler Miller's A Probable Outline of Conan's career from the 1930s, during Howard's lifetime. I think another intent was to bring some of Howard's other stories back into publication.
I've never read Robert E. Howard and used to think Conan was only a comic book. (I had never even heard of REH). Wow! Was I wrong! I purchased the three-volume Del Rey edition and I'm looking forward to reading them in September. I'm not reading the Conan stories by other writers (I've always been a purist and also have to use the best quilting fabric and thread when making my second love, quilts). I don't read comic books, ever, but by the end of September the weather should be cooler and I can begin making a new quilt (before October and horror story month - that is a yearly habit).
I have made a Lovecraft quilt and am hand quilting it. When I saw the fabric it reminded me of "The Color Out of Space." I love H.P. Lovecraft and have enjoyed his stories for years. I've never read anything by REH - Conan stories will be my first experience beginning Sept. 1. I've never even seen the Conan movies (as my son did). So, we'll see. I've always enjoyed reading Hugo, Dickens, Austen, Hardy, Trollope, Poe, Steinbeck, etc., and let's don't forget the Bosch books by Michael Connelly!
Taking one for the team, Michael. I have a special aversion to those versions specifically because of the issues you listed, but I’m interested in hearing your updated thoughts.
I happen to agree with your friend. I remember reading the original Lancer editions of Conan and enjoyed them. I suspect if it wasn't for L. Sprague designed Camp and Lin Carter, fantasy would be a lot different than it is today. I would recommend reading some of de Camp's fantasy before you judge what he did to Conan.
Nice video, Michael. However, I think it is legitimate to separate the character from the author. To understand Robert Howard, reading his works in their order of publication is certainly the way to follow his development as an author, and that of his attitude towards his creations (characters especially). But some characters ,like Sherlock Holmes, have a life of their own, and approaching them in a biographical way seems to me to be legitimate. With Holmes, until about 50 years ago various Sherlockian Societies(The Baker Street Irregulars, for example) insisted on treating Holmes as a real person rather than as a fictional character. Vincent Starett wrote a biography of Holmes in that tradition. (Not a bad book, by the way.) Doyle had from time to time inserted back story about Holmes in various stories in which this information was in no way involved in the plot. And it is also true, that sometimes (though seldom) that pastiches capture the spirit of the character so well that they effectively become part of the canon (if there is one.) It takes very good writing to do that, and I don't know if De Camp and Lin Carter achieved that goal or not. It also takes a certain self confidence and boldness on the part of the pastiche maker. I've read works by de Camp in the past, and possibly by Lin Carter, but I don't remember their work well enough to venture an opinion as to their success or lack of it. So, your opinion on their success in the light of your misgivings will be interesting. Cheers.
Is the Starrett book you mentioned The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes? I just found that inexplicably mixed in with my science fiction. I really want to read it.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Yes, that's the book I had in mind. Starrett also wrote a SH pastiche and another Holmes book which may or may not have been a collection of his own SH stories, I'm not sure. The Private Life was an enjoyable book although a little thin on details. I must have read it thirty years ago at least.
Great stuff! The only thing to recommend the Lancer (or Sphere) set is their size. The Del Rey and Gollancz are slightly too unwieldy to whip out on a bus for me. I just pick through them and skip the non-Howard stories. I must find out how exactly they differ from the text that came off his typewriter so that I get them in the purest form the next time I read them
I'd love to try reading them this way, if I could get my hands on these sets, just to see how forced it feels or if I might buy it as a continuous narrative. All I've come across is Conan the Buccaneer, which I suppose is a "bridge novel"? And other one-offs by authors like Andrew Outfit and John Maddox Robberts that I'm not sure if they were designed to fit into de Camp's "chronology".
Intellectually you make some valid about the mixed-up Howard/de Camp & Carter volumes. But... I still like them, and like the way they tried to tell Conan's story in the Hyborian Age, fleshing out his story with their own ones. IMHO their pastiches were rather good, so I'm sticking with my old paperbacks (until they fall apart). Why you may ask? Because they told the story of Conan in order of the internal chronology of Conan's saga, so it depicted the story of his life and adventures in a really good way. I much prefer that to simply putting the stories in publication order personally.
Hey I am reading De Camp and Carter Conan right now! I would say that these books could easily become much better by changing the names, and really nothing else😂
I love my Centenary Edition of Conan too Michael. But without the Sphere (UK) mid-70s reprints of the Lancer paperbacks I would never have moved from Marvel's Conan The Barbarian comics to the prose stories. I agree though that De Camp and Carter's stories should have been clearly delineated as not Howard's work and often as not originally a Conan work.
I think reading a few of the "original pastiches" by deCamp and Carter for GarbAugust would be a great compromise. It wouldn't be fair to read them after you have just read the true originals.
Cimmerian September, what a wonderful idea, Mr. Vaughan. Read along with us on our playlist... ua-cam.com/play/PLlFcav_ti8rkUvq2sqnHxKQ6AmeSN-2QK.html ...and we are currently recording and we'll be adding a new Robert E. Howard Conan story to our playlist in September. (our playlist is all original REH works, but it is in the chronological order of Conans life)
I too have been thinking about these (video goes up tomorrow) - my rosier memories are also based on last-century readings so maybe I'll revisit them too. It also occurred to me that I've never read the DeC&C movie novelisation, so I'll try and get to that as a Garbaugust thing.
If your friend can obtain the Lancer volumes, good on her. I haven't looked (I read them cover to cover many times in the Sixties) and having a Kindle edition of the Howard tales, I see no need to. My ebook cost a fraction of Your Del Rey tome and has no illustrations, but I can rely on imagination and I'm no bibliophile..... Anyway. I don't know if the De Camp and Carter works are available, though I believe NEWER pastiches are in print. Don't remember the De Camp Carter tales, been so long since I read them. Also I THINK De Camp's first name is pronounced with a long A.
I found the REH stories to be a bit more atmospheric than the pastiches and yes more superior than the Pastiches but the pastiches hold up on their own.
My criticism of de camp and Carter is them finishing rehs' fragments and turning non Conan stories into Conan stories rather then writing new material. Still I first discovered reh through the Conan the adventurer cartoon in the 90s and the hyborian age is called an age undreamed of for a reason Conan isn't the only hero in the entire age what happened before and after Conan's time what was going on in the other kingdoms
I can see the point of your "email correspondent" who defends the 12 book paperback series. That's how I was able to collect and read Conan, and although I would read each one as I could find them, I then reread the series from start to finish. The Howard-scripted stories always trumped, but I was rabid to read anything that he had plotted, and - let's face it - De Camp and Carter did as well as they could to write in the Howardian style. I remember pleading with my parents to help me buy those expensive $3.00 Sphere paperbacks from the U.K.(which, by the way have spines completely intact, as opposed to the Lancer publications). I bought volumes 11 and 12 the week they were published. However, Michael, like you, I will read the Complete Chronicles in September. But I will try to follow it up by reading the pastiche stories as well. In the meantime, I've been reading the 1970s Marvel comic editions, to whet my appetite. I'm up to issue 44 right now. (Yes; I have the originals, but I'm reading from the recent Omnibus editions 😊)
I was introduced to Conan via the Lancer Books, and I personally don't understand the hatred for de Camp and Carter by REH purists. Nobody was clamoring for Conan before them, and the only reason they were published in the first place was because of de Camp and Carter. REH wasn't a beloved writer back then. None of the pulp writers were, and they were basically forgotten. I re-read a bunch of the novels just a couple of years ago, and in my opinion, they're about on par with REH. Some of them are great, some of them aren't great, and others are middle of the road. They match REH's style well-enough in my opinion, and I personally don't think EVERY Howard story is perfect. I don't love a story simply because who the author happens to be. I love it because it's a good story, and I'd be interested in hearing the opinion of someone who has never read Conan and wasn't told who the writer is, which stories they'd prefer. In my opinion, "The Thing in the Crypt" from the very first Lancer novel is one of the best Conan stories, and possibly my favorite. I'm thankful to de Camp and Carter for having written it, as well as for getting the books published to begin with. At least we've got the completed REH works now, and hopefully we continue getting good pastiche novels. I've heard good things about the recent Chuck Dixon novel, so perhaps I'll check it out.
Even lesser Howard has some greatness in the story even if the whole doesnt end up being great. If you think any of the Camp and Carter stories are anywhere close to Howard than you are mistaken. Many of their stories were Howard stories with names changed or time period changed to make it a Conan story and anything good in them came from Howard.
Hey, Michael! Why not follow the deCamp or Rippke chronology but read only the Howard originals? What about the fragments and unfinished drafts? Will you flesh out those tales with the deCamp pastiche content or just read the authentic remnant? What about a back-to-back comparison of authentic Howard and deCamp adaptation? Also, is Cimmerian pronounced with a hard 'k' or an 's' sound? Isn't the name derived from the Greek 'kimmerioi' which, in turn, was derived from the ancient Persian 'gamira' meaning 'nomad'. Both start with a hard consonant. Does Howard state somewhere that it should be pronounced with an 's'?
What’s Wrong with me, that I LIKE the deCamp/Carter pastiches? And the Bantam series, and the Tor series. EXCEPT the Steve Perry books. Be fair: I only read PART of one of Steve's, and thought: "This AIN'T a Conan book. More of a D&D tie-in." Conan of Cimmerian is a legendary figure, so there are many, some spurious, tales of his adventures. I’ve got that brick book compendium and the DelRey editions, and other REH printings. I’ll read the Brick come September, BY CROM⚔
I was introduced to Conan via the Ace books in the mid 80s, love them even the Pastiches...the Frazetta and Vallejo covers were a big draw for sales and the Maroto illustrations were excellent also the layout of the books excellent. One pastiche stands out is Flame Knife, which I thought is one of the best conan stories ever even though its a rip off of a Borak story.
Outside of Howard's original works The Dark Horse run is my favorite, then The Marvel run will always have a special place in my heart, and The Jordan take didn't ruin my life or anything I say all of that to point out that this was the first attempt at doing just that. Filling in the life of Conan. Most of Howard's fans seem to hate this collection for reasons beyond the work itself. Like changing Howard's text* and more legitimate complaints about the infamous duo. I suggest that you read the work as it was intended, like you said, as a chronological attempt to tell Conan's life story. Then I don't think it will be as bad as you remember. ** *Yes that happened, but not to the extent they would have you believe. **But it will not be great, by any means. De Camp & Carter were not the best storytellers
Another "stupid" idea? Well, I can't do all 12 but it looks like the STD express previously sent along 8 of the 12, so I'll be doing all except Conan, Conan of Cimmeria, Conan the Warrior, and Conan of Aquilonia. Like you, I don't expect to finish them ALL in September, but my plan is to read nothing but Conan and Conan-adjacent things (except comics) that month. I'll Voxer you later!
A bit off perhaps, but have you read «The Tritonian Ring» by L Sprague de Camp? Fun 50s S&S inspired by Plato's Atlantis, Conan and the tales of Tartessos! Michael Moorcock is a fan of it and 95% sure GRRM based the Iron Islands from ASOIAF on the Gorgon Pirates from “TTR”: Pirate nation with an octopus god sitting on a black stone, with opposite down octopus on their sails. I also have, but not read «Lest Darkness Fall» by de Camp.
Hey Michael, do you have the "Skull Face and Others" three volume omnibus set? I had that set, oh, probably close to 40 years ago now...Yellow spines, rather lurid covers? That was my first exposure to unadulterated REH without the other scribblers meddling. Once you got the pure stuff, that other was just low octane rotgut. I really wish I still had that set...ruined by a vindictive ex-wife many years ago :(
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Of course you do! I bet you have the 1930's hardback version too...I went and looked that one up, and it sells for $400+ a copy.
I eventually read De Camp and Carter's non collaborative work. De Camp is a superior writer, Carter is okay but derivative ( if you have time to waste, check out his Thongor stories). The REALLY inferior author is Sven Nyborg. He penned "The Return of Conan", wherein the Cimmerian, hunting his kidnapped queen, revisits the sites of past adventures. Pure fan fic, and at best inoffensive.
I noticed in the 80s it was very hard to find the original conan works except for the Ace books only in the 2000s when the original conan stories were fully published. I am not a fan of the regular marvel conan comics , did not like them except for the B&W Savage sword of conan magazine. which I liked .
Jeez, the things you do for this channel... I've long felt that the interpolation of non-Howard stories and the warping and morphing of his other fiction to include it as well was an obvious attempt to milk a good thing for the money. The question is, was it de Camp who sold the idea to Lancer or was it Lancer who maybe thought they only had one shot with the Howard material and wanted to exploit as much as they could at once? Maybe neither. It could have been well intentioned, but there would have to be a heavy dose of hubris in any event. What Lancer did that I appreciate, was to provide a platform for Frazetta's big breakthrough as a cover artist. It probably changed his life.
I’m a little late to the party but have my Conan centennial edition by galanzc and can’t wait to participate. are their guidelines for this event or do I just read as much Conan as I can this month. I’m reading through the comics now on # 40 but feel I’m cheating so today I started to supplement one store of REH every 5 issues of the comic I read
The "compelling" quality about good sci-fi and fantasy is all about what's left out. Not saying that it isn't compelling to read back stories, history and motivational origins, but those things LIMIT the character while making him/her interesting. Just take a look at Marvel superheroes. How many versions of Spiderman are there now? Why did there need to be any more? Commerce? Artistic boredom? Freedom? The original intent had something to it. Something that made it popular with a few and which grew into greater popularity. That original intent can't be replicated. Why? Because it speaks to a time and place that's particular. I never grew up with the original pulp stories and magazines of Conan, i grew up reading de Camp's version. Just as i grew up reading Stan Lee's version of Spiderman. Am i mentally malnourished? Malnourished because there's a version of a character that i "never met"? Maybe. But maybe my version is "better" than yours. Better because ...of what was left out. There is a place in the heart for ignorance. Some relish it and call it mystery, others rebuke it as nihilism. If i were to read the pure Howard stories in their chronologically written as opposed to historically occurring order, would i find them more "compelling"? Maybe. Is de Camp's version of Conan more compelling than Howard's? I dont know. Is de Camp's version different than Howard's? That's one that I'd be interested in hearing argued. I think de Camp loved Howard's Conan, but i also think that modern sensibilities concerning Darwinian Evolution versus Social Darwinism might have played a role in de Camp's stewardship. Don't know.
I have to admit spending the late 70's trying to find those conan books was difficult. They were not sold on the shelves anymore in most bookshops and you could only find them in second hand bookshops, and that was an absolute treasure hunt. i still recall me and a friend biking around from shop to shop searching shelves of yellowing, dusty tomes and seeking out the conan series. The sight of a Frazetta cover made the heart leap. it took over a year before we both had them all. I love that memory and its connection to Howard, my favorite author.
I would spend summers at the beach during the 70s in NJ, hunting for Conan and any other books by Howard, snatching up any copy written by him (or anything with a Frazetta cover 🙂). That's how I discovered many of his other characters such as Bran Mak Morn, Kull, Solomon Kane, and El Borak.
With you there, my friend. Back in the day, finding certain books was like the quest for the holy grail.
Same here but I’m sure it was much harder here in the uk not the holy grail but more like rocking horse 💩, not the same now eBay has taken all the fun out of it😢
The "mixed up versions" were my introduction to Conan as a teenager. I gobbled those 12 books up in no time,not even realizing where the pastiche began and howards original work ended. I adored those books and frankly I am eternally grateful for the efforts made by DeCamp/ Carter and Nyberg to flesh out the history of my favorite literary creation. Yes, l am in complete agreement with the nameless person you referenced. But i really look forward to your refreshing your ancient thoughts onnthe reread of those mixed up conan stories.
My thoughts exactly but put down far better than I could’ve done roll on September
OMG I choked on my drink with the comment "Nobody would add their own fiction into Lord of the Rings, unless your Amazon..." Immediately upvoted for that comment alone :)
I must admit that I was introduced to Conan via the old dC&C series. I did enjoy them, they were fun. Later, I learned about the original Howard stories, and discovered that they weren't quite the same. I found that the Howard stories were more "realistic", if that is the right word. They worked better, and felt more natural. I did feel a bit offended to learn that the stories I read when I was younger were not all truly original Conan. I guess I have mixed feelings about pastiches these days. For a while I was really into non-Fleming Bond. So, while I am a staunch defender of original Conan, I won't criticize others for going further afield.
I read them in the early 80’s and never knew until this channel.
I,too, discovered Conan from the pastiche versions, and I found them sometimes good, sometimes not so good! I lost interest until Arnie turned up in 1982, which rekindled my interest in the character. It was you Mr Vaughan, who got me into getting the Del Rey Conan books and I love them all!
I'm looking forward to revisiting Conan. So many great stories. Tower of the Elephant, The Scarlet Citadel, Red Nails, Beyond the Black River just to name a few.
Gnome press was mostly active in the 50s I believe. Growing up with the Lancer editions, I never questioned their editorial and creative decisions…I didn’t understand how weird that was till hearing you and a few others discuss it. Back when i took for granted that Carter and Camp were doing us a favor by expanding Conan's adventures.
Hey D. ;)
Love Howard and his Conan. His is the best but I also love the DeCamp -Carter series as well as many of the novel that came afterwards. That was a great series and filled in some gaps to make novels. You are right and wrong. Love the REH show.
I discovered REH and Conan via those ACE paperbacks. So for me it is canon....I know, I know...but that's how I first read Conan. 😁 Also...it gave us those FANTASTIC Frazetta covers!
One cannot criticize those glorious covers!
Without the Lancer paperbacks, I would never have been introduced to Robert E Howard. At the time deCamp & Carter claimed they were putting together a workable time line for Conan. Honestly I was sold by the Frazetta covers first which made me read them all out of order. I see your point tho! But as your friend said, We were reading them in the late sixties. Now we can get them either way! I must say I enjoyed rereading just the Howard run more than ever! Thanks as always!
Very cool opening. I am ready to read Conan in September. It won't be long now. Summer always goes by too quickly. 😢
I’m in agreement with you, Michael, BUT I grew up reading those De Camp paperbacks and for nostalgic reasons I wish I would have kept my copies. I recently was able to find all the Tarzan paperbacks, and hopefully one day I’ll come across the Conan paperbacks. But for Cimmerian September I’ll be reading the Del Rey 3 volumes.
I think those Conan paperbacks are pricey nowadays. I have a suspicion that Titan Books might actually reprint them though. We will see.
As physical objects, I think they're great. They've got the best cover art of any Conan reprints ever. As for the contents, I'll always go for pure Howard, restored texts as as they were in the Del Rey editions. I don't rate de Camp/Carter/pastiche stuff too highly. Some is alright (John Hocking's work is solid) but none of it equals Howard, and everything I've read of de Camp indicates he was rather contemptuous of Howard's work and basically just latched onto Conan because he thought he could exploit it for sales. It worked out pretty well for him.
Tempted to join you! Brilliant. Have to love those old covers, too.
I have a great fondness for the Lancer/Ace series of Conan books, since they were instrumental in my finding Conan in the 70's, as with so many people I have known. I love to read Howard's original stuff in the Wagner or Del Rey series because they are superior and the genuine character by his creator. None of that taints my fondness for those early paperbacks, which I go back and read with great pleasure. I do understand and appreciate your points, but for me, I'm content that the originals and the Lancer/Ace versions exist.
I'm just about to finish 'Centenary Edition' and I love it! One of THE best stories ever written! 🤩Howard has a special place in my heart now!
My preferred way of read the Conan stories is through the Del Rey volumes. I own many of the Ace paperbacks as well. The Lancer/Ace series popularity I feel is due to the magnificent Frazetta covers,and keeping Howard’s name alive. His iconic art defines how I see Conan in my minds eye. Those books have a certain nostalgic appeal. Good or bad. It brings me back to “study hall” in eighth grade during the 80’s, falling asleep reading the essay on the Hyborian Age. Keep up the great content. Thank you
I applaud your madness.
I haven’t read the De Camp/Carter books since I was a high school kid in the early 80s. The school librarian once lifted Conan of Aquilonia out of my hands, held it between forefinger and thumb (as if it was dirty), looked at the cover, then read the blurb and handed it back with a look of disdain in her eyes. I felt judged… but didn’t care.
I think I’ll join you in your madness.
Can wait for October you ready's edited versions of Howard's work.
Wow! What an intro! 😍 Very cool collection.
Holy Smoke, it’s Lady Jane! I am honored!
How I needed this amusement today! You slay me.
You have some good re-reading ahead of you.
My introduction to Conan and S&S:
My 7th grade English teacher was a Conan fan. Something I didn't know at the end of the school year, when he handed me a big brown-paper grocery bag with the top rolled up and said, "Read these this summer." Inside were all the Lancer Conan books. That summer, I read 'em all. It was a pretty awesome experience, but by the end of book 12, I was burned out on Conan. However, I tried out other REH books--the El Borak and Kirby O'Donnell and Solomon Kane stories--and I've been hooked for life.
That was a cool teacher.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Yup.
It’s easy to thumb your nose at the de Camp - Carter series but it’s a very good set of books. They never tried to hide the fact they had added to the Howard material. The contents list all stories along with the author and if memory serves me correctly de Camp explained why this series was being published with pastiche fiction added. Even if de Camp - Carter committed a mortal sin this is the series which saved Conan and Howard from obscurity. The Gnome published Conan series came first but was never as popular as the latter Lancer/Ace series. Remember imitation is the best form of flattery.
I think the only way I can describe the prose in the original Conan stories is "drinkable," as in alcoholic beverage. So inebriating. I don't care for L. Spaghetti de Campy or Lame Carter; even as a kid I sensed something off in the pastiches. I, do, however like Karl Edward Wagner and Poul Anderson a lot. Frazetta and Vallejo drew like Old World masters; their covers were simply explosive to my imagination. I forget the name of the Filipino artist who did so much of the artwork in the black-and-white comics, which I devoured: simply amazing. (I'm also a huge Richard Corben fan.) Thanks, Mr. Vaughan. As a little kid, before the Net, you had to Indiana Jones your way into finding/discerning the original Conan stories, each one like a little golden monkey. I remember there being no one I could ask, and I had to glean my info. from the frustrating, often cryptic intros.
The figure of Conan from the cover of Conan the Adventurer, drawn by Frazetta, should be made into a statue and set on the city limits of Cross Plains, Texas. That would be a suitable tribute to Robert E. Howard.
Great video!!! Ready for Cimmerian September to begin. Michael, you are THE MAN! Look forward to your insight on the comparison. The Frazetta covers and Boris covers are true works of art. To have those in poster size to hang on the wall would be amazing. So ready for September to start. What a way to start the school year.
I have to admit, I do have a soft spot for the Ace/Lancer series, because that's how I first read Howard's original stories, after being introduced to the character in the Marvel comics series. And those covers just can't be topped. That said, you're absolutely right. deCamp and Carter should not have mixed their own stories in with the originals. Even back then, I knew they stood out like a sore thumb, that had been hit repeatedly with a hammer. I do have that great hardcover and the Del Rey set in a series of ebooks. So, I'm all set.
I can't wait and will re-read them unedited too. The German versions of the de Camp and Carter edits and pastiches all had different Arnold Schwarzenegger covers xD.
🎵It’s the Robert E. Howard Show! 🎶 I’m so happy that Cimmerian September is in my birthday month!!
Happy Birthday early!🎉
@@RobynHoodeofSherwood thank you!! 💙
Darn, I got my book (Gollancz) but I also have a list I am adhering to.... Earth Abides is next followed by The River of Doubt!!
I’m probably sticking with my Kindle edition. It has 17 out of 20 Conan stories. The God in the Bowl, The Black Stranger, and The Vale of the Lost Woman are unavailable due to copyright.
While I agree with every aspect of your argument regarding mixing in other authors, I just have so many fond memories of hunting down and trawling through old book shops while on holidays in the 80’s( my partner not so much) to gather my collection of Conan paperbacks that I can’t read the masters work any other way, though like you it has been a while, keep up the great work and say hi to Roger for me
I never read the Lancer/Ace paperbacks, but I'm old enough to remember them on bookstore shelves when I was a kid - I guess they would have been the Ace editions by that time. But they had competition, or an immediate successor, in the Berkely paperbacks, originally edited by Karl Edward Wagner and published I think from 77-79 or so. I had and read two of those when they came out - Red Nails and The People of the Black Circle, each with four stories and a cool fold-out poster that duplicated the wraparound covers (whch weren't Frazetta or Boris but were still pretty awesome). Anyway that series had about 9-10 volumes, not all of them Conan, but all nothing but Howard I think; I've added a few more to my collection but don't have them all. And this series never gets talked about today. Surely oh wise sage of all things Cimmerican, you must know this series?
Anyway that's really all the Howard I've read, shamefully. I would like to get the Del Rey series but I'd like to get the hardcovers and I'm too cheap for those so I've been vacillating for a while, hoping I'll get lucky and find them cheap. Meh, someday.
You are right, I need to do a video on the Berkeley series.
I agree with you 100% about those books. I read them in the 90s as well. I'm also going on ancient memories. They were fun. I liked them, even the non-Howard tales. But I didn't just read them. I reread them many times as I worked my way through the comics. I tried to stay as close to both the book and comic chronologies as possible. I would often reread a book story that preceded or was after a comic tale. However as the years went by, and I got more into hunting down every Howard book I could find. I found myself rereading Howard's Conan more and more. I'll be sticking with my Del Rey books for this one.
I will admit I have a soft spot for the old 70's versions of Conan. I had read a few of Robert Jordan's books, but I read the "Howard" stories in around '94 or '95. I will say I don't want to mess up my soft spot by reading them again. I have the Del Rey Conan set and it's perfectly good. No pastiche finishes to stories or remakes of other books. Since I didn't know any better, I was ok with those back then. Now....I've read the real thing so there's no point in the "wish" versions. I keep those old ones for the covers and that is about it.
Yeah, I get it. However, de Camp kept the series alive through the '50s and early 60s. Granted Carter wasn't the best thing to happen to Conan, but he kept it going through the late '60s and early '70s. This was heady stuff as a teenager first encountering these works in the mid to late '70s. I've read a LOT worse pastiches than those slim old Frazetta covered books. I can see what people got excited about when I finally reread Howard's work as published, but they did keep the stories in the public eye through some very lean literary times.
de Camp & Carter have gotten a bad rap these past couple of decades or so. They wanted to flesh out the Cimmerian's story from start to finish using as much Howard material as they could and filled out the rest. Was it perfect? Nothing is, but they tried to do Howard honor IMO, and while nothing is better than the original, de Camp & Carter's work was fun and entertaining.
Thank you man for writing this!
Since your posting represents my own thoughts on this matter exactly, you my good sir just saved me a lot of tipping ;)!
Once again many thanks, Merci beaucoup & vielen Dank!
Man I hate it when people don't succumb to my will
Me too!
From the purist perspective you are totally correct. De Camp and Carter, obviously, had a different vision.
Simply because Conan is an Irishman, there should be at least one epic pun and dirty joke battle.
Iirc my first Conan story was Marvel comic's #19 Hawks from the Sea which credits REH as the creator of Conan. Which led to me finding Ace's Conan of Cimmeria. And the first story I read was The Curse of the Monolith (not REH), which I thought was fantastic. Next was The Frost-Giant's Daughter, which I think is the first pure Howard story I read. Also fantastic! Years later I would get 3 of the Berkley hardbacks which only contained REH's originals. And found it somewhat surprising that they were not published that way all along.
Ancient... those kids have no respect towards us experienced people.
😉
Seriously!
I picked these up 30 years ago when I was 16 and first getting into painting because I wanted the Frazetta covers. I've only gotten to reading them this summer. To me they are unreadable.
I haven't read the Lancer/Ace collection since the late 80's.
In high school had lent my set out and only got the first 6 back before reasons. Wasn't until late last year or early this year I replaced the half I was missing.
Think mentioned before had wanted to do comparison with the Del Rey edits but didn't get around to doing it. Would be nice to fit in the third volume of the Del Rey collection, I've yet to read, in September but not sure yet what my reading habit is going to be quite yet as I get back in to reading more than comics and slow read some Stephen King as the last month or so has been.
De Camp and Carter were apparently attempting to fill in P. Schyler Miller's A Probable Outline of Conan's career from the 1930s, during Howard's lifetime. I think another intent was to bring some of Howard's other stories back into publication.
I've never read Robert E. Howard and used to think Conan was only a comic book. (I had never even heard of REH). Wow! Was I wrong! I purchased the three-volume Del Rey edition and I'm looking forward to reading them in September. I'm not reading the Conan stories by other writers (I've always been a purist and also have to use the best quilting fabric and thread when making my second love, quilts). I don't read comic books, ever, but by the end of September the weather should be cooler and I can begin making a new quilt (before October and horror story month - that is a yearly habit).
Why not make a Conan quilt? Imagine the possibilities...
I have made a Lovecraft quilt and am hand quilting it. When I saw the fabric it reminded me of "The Color Out of Space." I love H.P. Lovecraft and have enjoyed his stories for years. I've never read anything by REH - Conan stories will be my first experience beginning Sept. 1. I've never even seen the Conan movies (as my son did). So, we'll see. I've always enjoyed reading Hugo, Dickens, Austen, Hardy, Trollope, Poe, Steinbeck, etc., and let's don't forget the Bosch books by Michael Connelly!
Taking one for the team, Michael. I have a special aversion to those versions specifically because of the issues you listed, but I’m interested in hearing your updated thoughts.
Wow, that is a serious commitment. That is an awful lot of Conan. You’ll be a true expert by the time you’re done rereading it all twice. Have fun!
Thanks!
I happen to agree with your friend. I remember reading the original Lancer editions of Conan and enjoyed them. I suspect if it wasn't for L. Sprague designed Camp and Lin Carter, fantasy would be a lot different than it is today. I would recommend reading some of de Camp's fantasy before you judge what he did to Conan.
Nice video, Michael. However, I think it is legitimate to separate the character from the author. To understand Robert Howard, reading his works in their order of publication is certainly the way to follow his development as an author, and that of his attitude towards his creations (characters especially). But some characters ,like Sherlock Holmes, have a life of their own, and approaching them in a biographical way seems to me to be legitimate. With Holmes, until about 50 years ago various Sherlockian Societies(The Baker Street Irregulars, for example) insisted on treating Holmes as a real person rather than as a fictional character. Vincent Starett wrote a biography of Holmes in that tradition. (Not a bad book, by the way.) Doyle had from time to time inserted back story about Holmes in various stories in which this information was in no way involved in the plot. And it is also true, that sometimes (though seldom) that pastiches capture the spirit of the character so well that they effectively become part of the canon (if there is one.) It takes very good writing to do that, and I don't know if De Camp and Lin Carter achieved that goal or not. It also takes a certain self confidence and boldness on the part of the pastiche maker. I've read works by de Camp in the past, and possibly by Lin Carter, but I don't remember their work well enough to venture an opinion as to their success or lack of it. So, your opinion on their success in the light of your misgivings will be interesting. Cheers.
Is the Starrett book you mentioned The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes? I just found that inexplicably mixed in with my science fiction. I really want to read it.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Yes, that's the book I had in mind. Starrett also wrote a SH pastiche and another Holmes book which may or may not have been a collection of his own SH stories, I'm not sure. The Private Life was an enjoyable book although a little thin on details. I must have read it thirty years ago at least.
Great stuff!
The only thing to recommend the Lancer (or Sphere) set is their size. The Del Rey and Gollancz are slightly too unwieldy to whip out on a bus for me.
I just pick through them and skip the non-Howard stories. I must find out how exactly they differ from the text that came off his typewriter so that I get them in the purest form the next time I read them
I'd love to try reading them this way, if I could get my hands on these sets, just to see how forced it feels or if I might buy it as a continuous narrative. All I've come across is Conan the Buccaneer, which I suppose is a "bridge novel"? And other one-offs by authors like Andrew Outfit and John Maddox Robberts that I'm not sure if they were designed to fit into de Camp's "chronology".
Intellectually you make some valid about the mixed-up Howard/de Camp & Carter volumes. But... I still like them, and like the way they tried to tell Conan's story in the Hyborian Age, fleshing out his story with their own ones. IMHO their pastiches were rather good, so I'm sticking with my old paperbacks (until they fall apart).
Why you may ask? Because they told the story of Conan in order of the internal chronology of Conan's saga, so it depicted the story of his life and adventures in a really good way. I much prefer that to simply putting the stories in publication order personally.
I am interested to hear How all of this goes!
Just read pool of the black ones and bought this edition
Hey I am reading De Camp and Carter Conan right now! I would say that these books could easily become much better by changing the names, and really nothing else😂
I love my Centenary Edition of Conan too Michael.
But without the Sphere (UK) mid-70s reprints of the Lancer paperbacks I would never have moved from Marvel's Conan The Barbarian comics to the prose stories. I agree though that De Camp and Carter's stories should have been clearly delineated as not Howard's work and often as not originally a Conan work.
I agree with your assessment...the Conan books could have been continued without altering the original material.
I think reading a few of the "original pastiches" by deCamp and Carter for GarbAugust would be a great compromise. It wouldn't be fair to read them after you have just read the true originals.
Cimmerian September, what a wonderful idea, Mr. Vaughan.
Read along with us on our playlist...
ua-cam.com/play/PLlFcav_ti8rkUvq2sqnHxKQ6AmeSN-2QK.html
...and we are currently recording and we'll be adding a new Robert E. Howard Conan story to our playlist in September.
(our playlist is all original REH works, but it is in the chronological order of Conans life)
I too have been thinking about these (video goes up tomorrow) - my rosier memories are also based on last-century readings so maybe I'll revisit them too. It also occurred to me that I've never read the DeC&C movie novelisation, so I'll try and get to that as a Garbaugust thing.
If your friend can obtain the Lancer volumes, good on her. I haven't looked (I read them cover to cover many times in the Sixties) and having a Kindle edition of the Howard tales, I see no need to.
My ebook cost a fraction of Your Del Rey tome and has no illustrations, but I can rely on imagination and I'm no bibliophile.....
Anyway. I don't know if the De Camp and Carter works are available, though I believe NEWER pastiches are in print. Don't remember the De Camp Carter tales, been so long since I read them. Also I THINK De Camp's first name is pronounced with a long A.
I found the REH stories to be a bit more atmospheric than the pastiches and yes more superior than the Pastiches but the pastiches hold up on their own.
My criticism of de camp and Carter is them finishing rehs' fragments and turning non Conan stories into Conan stories rather then writing new material. Still I first discovered reh through the Conan the adventurer cartoon in the 90s and the hyborian age is called an age undreamed of for a reason Conan isn't the only hero in the entire age what happened before and after Conan's time what was going on in the other kingdoms
Well, the only Conan stories I have on hand are a few Conan comic books from the mid-1970s. Those count even less.
Many of his stories are in the public domain and can be found online.
I can see the point of your "email correspondent" who defends the 12 book paperback series. That's how I was able to collect and read Conan, and although I would read each one as I could find them, I then reread the series from start to finish. The Howard-scripted stories always trumped, but I was rabid to read anything that he had plotted, and - let's face it - De Camp and Carter did as well as they could to write in the Howardian style. I remember pleading with my parents to help me buy those expensive $3.00 Sphere paperbacks from the U.K.(which, by the way have spines completely intact, as opposed to the Lancer publications). I bought volumes 11 and 12 the week they were published.
However, Michael, like you, I will read the Complete Chronicles in September. But I will try to follow it up by reading the pastiche stories as well.
In the meantime, I've been reading the 1970s Marvel comic editions, to whet my appetite. I'm up to issue 44 right now. (Yes; I have the originals, but I'm reading from the recent Omnibus editions 😊)
I was introduced to Conan via the Lancer Books, and I personally don't understand the hatred for de Camp and Carter by REH purists. Nobody was clamoring for Conan before them, and the only reason they were published in the first place was because of de Camp and Carter. REH wasn't a beloved writer back then. None of the pulp writers were, and they were basically forgotten. I re-read a bunch of the novels just a couple of years ago, and in my opinion, they're about on par with REH. Some of them are great, some of them aren't great, and others are middle of the road. They match REH's style well-enough in my opinion, and I personally don't think EVERY Howard story is perfect. I don't love a story simply because who the author happens to be. I love it because it's a good story, and I'd be interested in hearing the opinion of someone who has never read Conan and wasn't told who the writer is, which stories they'd prefer.
In my opinion, "The Thing in the Crypt" from the very first Lancer novel is one of the best Conan stories, and possibly my favorite. I'm thankful to de Camp and Carter for having written it, as well as for getting the books published to begin with. At least we've got the completed REH works now, and hopefully we continue getting good pastiche novels. I've heard good things about the recent Chuck Dixon novel, so perhaps I'll check it out.
Even lesser Howard has some greatness in the story even if the whole doesnt end up being great. If you think any of the Camp and Carter stories are anywhere close to Howard than you are mistaken. Many of their stories were Howard stories with names changed or time period changed to make it a Conan story and anything good in them came from Howard.
I’ve heard the Chuck Dixon book is good too but I also hear it’s full of typos.
also Pastiche wise loved COnan of Aquilonia which is the most rousing conan novel in the Ace book line, however disappointed by COnan of the Isles.
I prefer chronological order. I will admit the pastiches are inferior in quality to Howard. I liked the added background the pastiches provided.
Hey, Michael! Why not follow the deCamp or Rippke chronology but read only the Howard originals? What about the fragments and unfinished drafts? Will you flesh out those tales with the deCamp pastiche content or just read the authentic remnant? What about a back-to-back comparison of authentic Howard and deCamp adaptation? Also, is Cimmerian pronounced with a hard 'k' or an 's' sound? Isn't the name derived from the Greek 'kimmerioi' which, in turn, was derived from the ancient Persian 'gamira' meaning 'nomad'. Both start with a hard consonant. Does Howard state somewhere that it should be pronounced with an 's'?
What’s Wrong with me, that I LIKE the deCamp/Carter pastiches? And the Bantam series, and the Tor series. EXCEPT the Steve Perry books. Be fair: I only read PART of one of Steve's, and thought: "This AIN'T a Conan book. More of a D&D tie-in." Conan of Cimmerian is a legendary figure, so there are many, some spurious, tales of his adventures. I’ve got that brick book compendium and the DelRey editions, and other REH printings. I’ll read the Brick come September, BY CROM⚔
I was introduced to Conan via the Ace books in the mid 80s, love them even the Pastiches...the Frazetta and Vallejo covers were a big draw for sales and the Maroto illustrations were excellent also the layout of the books excellent. One pastiche stands out is Flame Knife, which I thought is one of the best conan stories ever even though its a rip off of a Borak story.
Didn't the books of V.C. Andrews get even worse treatment than Howard after Andrews died?
I started getting those paperbacks because I want supplementation to the Del Rey books. I've read Conan so now I want to try a little Fauxnan
😅
I’ve long wanted to hear you tell the de Camp story.
Preach michael my god I mean the disrespect
another reason this series of books good bcouse they dirt cheap. your conan black version expensive. they cheap and great covers advantages cant deny.
Homage something and lack of imagination are two different things,i believe de Camp and Carter saw good chance when it comes to buisness
Outside of Howard's original works
The Dark Horse run is my favorite, then
The Marvel run will always have a special place in my heart, and
The Jordan take didn't ruin my life or anything
I say all of that to point out that this was the first attempt at doing just that. Filling in the life of Conan.
Most of Howard's fans seem to hate this collection for reasons beyond the work itself.
Like changing Howard's text* and more legitimate complaints about the infamous duo.
I suggest that you read the work as it was intended, like you said, as a chronological attempt to tell Conan's life story.
Then I don't think it will be as bad as you remember. **
*Yes that happened, but not to the extent they would have you believe.
**But it will not be great, by any means. De Camp & Carter were not the best storytellers
Another "stupid" idea? Well, I can't do all 12 but it looks like the STD express previously sent along 8 of the 12, so I'll be doing all except Conan, Conan of Cimmeria, Conan the Warrior, and Conan of Aquilonia. Like you, I don't expect to finish them ALL in September, but my plan is to read nothing but Conan and Conan-adjacent things (except comics) that month. I'll Voxer you later!
A bit off perhaps, but have you read «The Tritonian Ring» by L Sprague de Camp? Fun 50s S&S inspired by Plato's Atlantis, Conan and the tales of Tartessos! Michael Moorcock is a fan of it and 95% sure GRRM based the Iron Islands from ASOIAF on the Gorgon Pirates from “TTR”: Pirate nation with an octopus god sitting on a black stone, with opposite down octopus on their sails. I also have, but not read «Lest Darkness Fall» by de Camp.
I actually came across my copy of Tritonian Ring today. I’ve never read it.
Hey Michael, do you have the "Skull Face and Others" three volume omnibus set? I had that set, oh, probably close to 40 years ago now...Yellow spines, rather lurid covers? That was my first exposure to unadulterated REH without the other scribblers meddling. Once you got the pure stuff, that other was just low octane rotgut. I really wish I still had that set...ruined by a vindictive ex-wife many years ago :(
Yeah, I have the paperback set and the British hardcover. An excellent collection.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Of course you do! I bet you have the 1930's hardback version too...I went and looked that one up, and it sells for $400+ a copy.
where do you purchase the Conan book with the DeCamp Adventures in it?
Well, all those books are out of print now. EBay might be your best bet.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 ok thanks.
I eventually read De Camp and Carter's non collaborative work. De Camp is a superior writer, Carter is okay but derivative ( if you have time to waste, check out his Thongor stories).
The REALLY inferior author is Sven Nyborg. He penned "The Return of Conan", wherein the Cimmerian, hunting his kidnapped queen, revisits the sites of past adventures. Pure fan fic, and at best inoffensive.
been looking into getting the "trilogy", are the Delrey editions the same as the Random house world ones?
I don’t actually don’t know “the world” editions. Random House does own Del Rey so…….maybe?
Can't someone slap an injunction on these ? The nameless lady's arguments seem too logical. She will fail in an American court of law 🤭🤭
I noticed in the 80s it was very hard to find the original conan works except for the Ace books only in the 2000s when the original conan stories were fully published. I am not a fan of the regular marvel conan comics , did not like them except for the B&W Savage sword of conan magazine. which I liked .
Jeez, the things you do for this channel... I've long felt that the interpolation of non-Howard stories and the warping and morphing of his other fiction to include it as well was an obvious attempt to milk a good thing for the money. The question is, was it de Camp who sold the idea to Lancer or was it Lancer who maybe thought they only had one shot with the Howard material and wanted to exploit as much as they could at once? Maybe neither. It could have been well intentioned, but there would have to be a heavy dose of hubris in any event.
What Lancer did that I appreciate, was to provide a platform for Frazetta's big breakthrough as a cover artist. It probably changed his life.
I’m a little late to the party but have my Conan centennial edition by galanzc and can’t wait to participate. are their guidelines for this event or do I just read as much Conan as I can this month. I’m reading through the comics now on # 40 but feel I’m cheating so today I started to supplement one store of REH every 5 issues of the comic I read
Yeah, just read as much Conan as you can. Thanks for joining us!
My pleasure, thank you for having me:)
Another impossible project 🤔😆
The "compelling" quality about good sci-fi and fantasy is all about what's left out.
Not saying that it isn't compelling to read back stories, history and motivational origins, but those things LIMIT the character while making him/her interesting.
Just take a look at Marvel superheroes. How many versions of Spiderman are there now? Why did there need to be any more? Commerce? Artistic boredom? Freedom?
The original intent had something to it. Something that made it popular with a few and which grew into greater popularity. That original intent can't be replicated. Why? Because it speaks to a time and place that's particular.
I never grew up with the original pulp stories and magazines of Conan, i grew up reading de Camp's version. Just as i grew up reading Stan Lee's version of Spiderman. Am i mentally malnourished? Malnourished because there's a version of a character that i "never met"? Maybe. But maybe my version is "better" than yours. Better because ...of what was left out.
There is a place in the heart for ignorance. Some relish it and call it mystery, others rebuke it as nihilism. If i were to read the pure Howard stories in their chronologically written as opposed to historically occurring order, would i find them more "compelling"? Maybe. Is de Camp's version of Conan more compelling than Howard's? I dont know. Is de Camp's version different than Howard's? That's one that I'd be interested in hearing argued. I think de Camp loved Howard's Conan, but i also think that modern sensibilities concerning Darwinian Evolution versus Social Darwinism might have played a role in de Camp's stewardship. Don't know.
This is a terrible Conandrum .. luckily the Del Rey volumes have taken my potential mental torment into consideration .. phew.