Tummy Tuck Follow Up: Fat Necrosis
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- After having a tummy tuck some patients might notice some hardness near the scar in the abdomen. Why are some areas hard? In this video, Dr. William will go over a patient follow-up after a tummy tuck surgery.
#tummytuck #fatnecrosis #tummytuckpostop
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This man, helps all of us. That has gone under the knife. The way he takes the time, to go into depth, about surgery, recovery, etc. I appreciate his info so much, thank you ❤
Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.
Definitely answered my question about the hardening part of my scar just in the middle of my tummy tuck
I am 5 months out from surgery. I have thickened scarring almost to the hip bones. It is worst in the center. My scar doesn’t look as good as hers. Still have some tenderness and swelling in my sides. I am massaging and having lymphatic messages. Happy to get reinforcement here of what my surgeon told me - that it could take a year or more to calm down. I’m content with the results no matter what. I should add that at age 67 I am much older than the average age women have this done.
Compression also helps. Drink water and keep with the massages
Have u did coconut oil on the incision site? It had helped mine in color
I’m 2 days in to my tummy tuck. I had a facelift a few years ago and it took roughly a year and half for all the swelling to go down and my scars to settle down. I’m happy with the end result but I think with surgery’s like these it just takes time and patience.
I’m 63 and just had Smart Lipo with Mini TT. Recovery is not for the weak!
Good luck to you on your healing❤
This post eased my mind significantly because I’m dealing with the SAME issue post high volume extended tummy tuck. I was scared. I’ve been using Shea butter and massaging my belly and circumference scars nightly. I have deeply melanated skin and my scars are brown but not keloid prone. THANK YOU for teaching your viewers about varied issues that may arise. God bless and keep you.
Thank you. Godspeed.
How long does it take to heal I want to get a tattoo over it
@@monishalanier8348 most tattoo artist worth their salt will not tattoo you until a year post op and sometimes a year and a half post op.
Hi. I am checking up on you. How are you today with your skin/scar? Is it better?
Drs voice is so soothing
Very important to keep scar as lowest possible 👍great job
Almost 1 year postop and Im still experiencing hardness in that area. Doesn't hurt, so chalking it up to still going through the healing process. Kind of relieved to hear it could last a couple of years and to just ride it out.
Thank you for sharing this.
Hi. I am checking up on you. How are you a year later....is it better and healed?
Dr William I really can’t thank you enough for your videos. You are really a God send bc these videos are realistic & very informative. I can’t stress enough how much I’m looking forward to my tummy tuck! Again thank you so much❤️
You are very welcome. I appreciate your gratitude and I am grateful for your support.
I am very happy that I trusted dr. William. I am loving my results. waiting for the necrotic spot to heal but my scarring looks amazing, my massage therapist said it is the best one she have seen.
Excellent, Excellent, doctor. Explaining the medical conditions that come with any surgical procedures. I am a gastric sleeve patient that looked for a board certified plastic surgeon to perform the surgeries to remove the loose skin and but knowing what was normal, from my tummy tuck, brachioplasty and even lipo that be did, was all done wrong, but I was just happy to have it done that I never went back. I still haven't even done my breast lift/bra roll removal, because I'm extremely scared of the outcome of a horrible breast lift. He didn't even do the bilateral brachioplasty to remove the skin from my side and under my arm. What a nightmare, but when it's done right, many blessings to one's that do. Thank you very much for these educational videos. They are absolutely appreciated, wish I had come across them before I had my surgeries done in 2020, at the top of the pandemic to top it off. My surgery was done January of 2020 and surgeon didn't see me until the following year, due to covid shut down. I just kept my wounds clean and my obgyn removed my drains and attended to me, thank God!
I had a panniculectomy from a car accident (seatbelt injury across stomach that was so bad it caused huge knots and deformity from fat necrosis). It’s no joke sometimes. Mine caused pain and discomfort and reshaped my stomach and loose skin (lost 100 lbs). God I hope my incision heals well!
Great lesson, per usual. I wonder how many of your viewers are med students.
I think this is what’s happening to me. At first I thought it was a seroma. My surgeon drained it on 3 occasions to no avail. I’ve been getting the massages and I still feel like I look deformed. My massage therapist is telling me to be paitent. (Patience is not my strong point) it’s comforting to know that this will take some time to soften up. 🤞🏾
This is exactly what's happening to me 2 months post op,and it's hard from my groins to the center of my incision,I'm so scared worried if it's seroma until I see this video😢😢😢
Hi. How are you now? Is everything better/softer??
It was a seroma that I had to get surgically drained. I’m a year post op and it’s still a little swelling but that seroma ia gone. Still one little small hard spot that’s there that’s going down slowly but surely.
Add pressure and massage the lumps thru the day. I'm doing that and it helps so much. The lumps are getting smaller. Sometimes I just press n hold at the lumpy spots. I had a huge one between my new belly button and TT scar. It's now about 70% reduced and I can feel that the large lump has broken up into smaller pieces. All I did for that particular large fat lump was add pressure. I started doing that about 2-3wks PO.
He visto bastantes videos de Tummy tuck y su ombligo ha quedado super natural, muy bonito
Eso fue lo primero que vi, que bonito ombligo, buen trabajo Dr!
Wow Dr. Miami you are so thorough... I really appreciate your videos.
Glad you like them! I am not Dr Miami but I will take the comment anyway!
@@DrWilliamMiami😅
@DrWilliamMiami. Is there anything that can be done to prevent or minimize this? What is the best course of action to reduce the hardness?
Like seriously u so detailed and i really love that, God has really gifted you with arted in those hands and u may be blessed always.
Best info ever!
What happens if you cut over the belly button to get rid of stretch marks? Or can you go over the belly button if there are not a lot of streach marks that are over the belly button?
We remove tissue based on excess skin not stretch marks, so the amount of skin removed during the operation is determined by how much excess skin can be removed and whatever stretch marks are there are then automatically removed.
@DrWilliamMiami oh
Her scar looks great. Similar to mine. Her surgeon did a great job 👍🏾
Can you please do a video regarding belly button stage of healing and how to keep it clean etc
Sure, that's a great idea.
I am new to your channel :) I’m currently trying Physical Therapy for Diastasis Recti, and am loving the exercises for strengthening my core muscles. That said, I still have quite a tummy from having 3 babies, so I’m starting to research tummy tuck procedures in case I decide to pursue it in the future. Your videos are exactly what I wanted to find. The more practical and real information I can find, the better I can weigh out what I want to do in the future. Diastasis is hard, because even when you build up your core, your stomach muscles can still bulge quite a bit, especially after eating. Love your videos!
I recall very clearly this nurse at Duke telling me that she exercised her core rigorously everyday and did a ton of sit ups. To be honest I really was skeptical as her stomach was no where close to flat. As a resident I helped one of the plastic surgeons perform a tummy tuck on her and was shocked at how well developed her muscles were! They were huge and it was obvious she worked out like crazy and probably did more sit ups then she even mentioned. But the problem was her muscles were separated. They were in good shape but the exercise couldn't bring them together. That's why it is impossible with exercise to get the muscles closer together. The muscles get stronger and bigger but not closer.
The surgeon really is an expert, great listening.
I would try red light therapy for the scarring, it helps scarring. You can buy a panel or I go to a tanning salon with a red light bed.
Also Hyperbaric oxygen theapy is supposed to help necrosis, I want to try that for my necrosis.
Great work doc👍🏾
Dr. William you have just set me at ease bc I had a tummy tuck Dec 2021 and I'm experiencing the same thing rite over my public area. Thank you for your videos..
Glad to help
I had mine end of July and my dr office recommended more lipo. I'm like?? it's hard how would more lipo help?? I left feeling worried I had made a huge mistake going to that office. I'm currently in bed praying this bulge doesn't get worse.
@@heavenlygardensMy dr just recommended the same ! i said i dont think liposuction is gonna get rid of this hard bulge ???🙄 looking for another dr .. im so disappointed
@@kourtneyjade737 I'm sorry you're having this same experience. I believe in my case it's scar tissue. UA-cam how to massage scar tissue. I've found that to be very helpful as well as keeping the area compressed with corset leggings from Amazon. Good luck!
That's exactly the video I needed now ❤
Dr. Williams,
I love you and the work that you do. I had a TT, and was not tighten or my belly button wasn't positioned accurately. I also wanted my hip dips filled which wasn't done. I'm not into bashing anyone, but i was wondering if you can do a revision on me and add some fat to my hip dips. You are extremely talented, and I love how you do the hips without making them look funny. I live in Atlanta, and if you can do a zoom consultation, i will be grateful. Please help me. Thank you
Respectfully Submitted
She looks great! I dropped 30k on a mommy makeover one year ago and absolutely do not like my body😞
Why?
Story time! 😂 what went wrong Sis.
This is great information
Thank you for your video. Although my story is a little different as I did not have a tummy tuck, but I had surgery on my hip, later needing a wound vac. I have some significant thickening in my scar and I didn't know why, seeing this video now it makes complete sense because the reasoning for the surgery was due to a significant infection. It makes sense that the fat could have died. I have tenderness, dryness of the skin, sensitivity, and at times I almost feel nauseous when I touch the area(a little squeamish for some reason)...but anyway...I was stumped as to if this would ever get better or not, and what I could do to help things. It hasn't been a full year since the surgery, and even less time since the wound vac has been off so I am glad to hear that there is still time for this to get better.
Hello, My question how true is that you can't get lipo near the incision after a tummy tuck
Hello Doctor, can you please talk about skin necrosis, thank you.
How do you preserve the natural lines and definition in the abdomen during a tummy tuck? I have natural defined lines on my stomach which makes me look toned though i have a lot of excess stomach fat and excess skin. I don't want to lose that definition during a tummy tuck
What if you had a wound vac due to opening? would the area soften or what can be done to soften it?
How long after your tummy tuck do you put the silicone cream on and work it in?
My patients start their scar care program 3 weeks after surgery. They use the Ogee Scar Gel twice a day and then sleep in their scar strips at night.
@@DrWilliamMiami where can I buy the products you are referencing
Sure. All of my patients use the Ogee products. They are available at ogeerecovery.com/
@DrWilliamMiami I just found you UA-cam page and it’s been a Godsend for me! I am currently wearing ab foams but they are SUPER itchy. Can I wrap the ab foam in Saran Wrap or something similar to avoid the itch? Will there be any potential negative consequences? Thank you!
I wouldn't suggest putting saran wrap against your skin but you could use a soft cotton t-shirt.
Dr. William, does it make sense to you that my surgeon won’t combine upper abdomen lipo with my TT + flank/back lipo? He says I have to wait and do the upper abdomen lipo 3-6 months after tummy tuck.
Yes that's common. You have to be careful of performing liposuction of the upper abdomen with a TT. I do it but I do it very gently. It is reasonable to lipo the upper abdomen 6 months after a TT for sure.
What should I look for in a massage therapist for after TT?
How much weight can you loose with a TT and lipo 360 combined?
I'm curious too
Just wondering because I had a C-section but it didn’t take so long for the scars to be look less visible. Why does the tummy tuck incision take a long time to be less visible ?
It's nice to hear from you Doctor.. well explained.
The tummy tuck you do with ypur Patient so beautiful, Its clean the war you stritches hat Tummy.
Thank you for sharing your Information Doctor.
thank you!
It will disappear, Doctor u doing my round 2 i have finally found my dr
She looks amazing
Does this happen only with tummy tucks or for all surgeries at those region?
It is not really related to the region--fat necrosis can happen with any type of surgery like hip replacement, a breast reduction, liposuction, tummy tuck, breast reconstruction, a facelift etc--it is related to blood supply. A decrease in blood supply results in a decrease in oxygen delivery and that can lead to fat necrosis.
@@DrWilliamMiami thank you Doc!
Hi Dr. William so I am hard and a little pudgy right above my tummy tuck scar. When I put back on my faja it flattens out and not so hard. I only feel hardeness after I am out my faja more than 5 hours. I’m 4 mos Post op. Do I need to wear my faja longer?
I have fat necrosis 3 weeks post op. The incision is leaking thick oil and my surgeon is pushing all the dead fat liquid out of my incision for the past week. They are opening my incision to get the dead fat out. My incision has now opened up and he is suggesting a VAC system. Im feeling very defeated and need advise.
Oh that is tough but hang in there it sounds as if you are getting good care and wound vacs work very well.
Hello doctor..I had a csection delivery 6months back..my stitches are fine and healed well...but on my right side of the scar i feel pain even if my cloth and water is touched at the area..i had a ultrasound scan and was said that had a seroma of less than 1cm..having tablets still no improvment of pain...could u please help me with it
I have an infection in my tummy tuck in the emergency room and the my doctor don't know what's going on and I keep trying to get in with the surgeon that did my tummy tuck but they said he's out of the country so I needed to show photos just so you can give me an idea of what I'm dealing with cuz it keeps getting worse my stomach is just it's just eating my flesh away and it keeps opening up wider. I pray in Jesus name you find time for me so I can show you the photos you're the one man that would know exactly what this is and how to deal with it.
How are you now? I hope you found relief
Yeah, I'm almost 2 weeks post op and I have the hard, lumpy fat necrosis. It feels like peas. I also have a large hard, area of fat necrosis and a sunken dent/line in the tummy.
Roll, roll, roll!
ogeerecovery.com/collections/ogee-roller
how do you know the difference of fat necrosis and needing the muscles to be retightened ? I currently have a bulge in the same area also firm like u mentioned ..im 7 months out though.
Hello Dr. Miami. I am 6 weeks postop and and I have a hard lump on my left side close to my waist line. A day after surgery it was huge, and I have noticed it has decreased in size significantly. It is tender to the touch. I had a full tummy tuck with muscle repair. Liposuction of lateral waist was also performed. My surgeon is 12 hours away so I can't just go in and see her. What could this be? Will it likely resolve on its own if its fat necrosis?
I am sorry but I can't answer this without seeing you in person. I would contact your surgeon and ask them just to be safe.
@@DrWilliamMiami I respect that. Thank you ❤️
Donde se localiza este dr??
Hey dr what if the hard lumps are visible too? And more like waves and ripples. I’m 2 weeks post op lipo and they started showing 1 weeks post op. Some context I was an already slim patient with a little protruding tummy, maybe not a good candidate & it was done aggressively?
Thanks so much
After this surgery are you able to feel your body parts normal..i feel like nothing feels normal after surgery...through it look so beautiful...please reply❤
Thank you 🙏🏿
No problem 😊
Most of my hardness is around my belly button area (she did have to "make me a new one") it looks great from the front but you can see the hardness from the side. Im worried 😢 6 1/2 weeks out
Good afternoon dr I had a tummy tuck two weeks ago. What does it mean when you feel some time of movement on the bottom of the bellybutton? Like a little wave I feel. It does not hurt
.me to its like a gaz but it feel more like a baby moving
Beautifil work
Thanks Doctor william but am inquiring about if there are food I can eat a gain weight in my thighs so that they grow bigger
I'm impressed wth tht neat cut! 😊
Thank you! 😊
You are amazing
Bravo pour la cicatrice ‼️‼️🤗🙏
Would lasers or chemical peels help reduce the appearance of the scars.
Lasers can help with scarring. Peels are not really that effective in helping the appearance of scars.
Hi Dr William. Can you tell me what is the difference in fibrosis & necrosis? Please & thank you!
Totally different. Fibrosis is lumpy scar tissue from liposuction and necrosis is dead fat that has been grafted.
@@DrWilliamMiami I just had "liposuction & tummy tuck" done in April. I have developed a swollen PAINFUL/STINGING type feeling around the scar area? So is that fibrosis?
I have developed this same stinging feeling in my left side incision and the area is a bit harden 😐
@@kaylaxx3961 Try using a heating pad. Ik my irritation was at some points, where nothing at all felt good touching that area & or also numbing cream. I was trying Tylenol & lightly massaging the area through the stinging. I hope it gets better for you soon!
I have 2 large areas of fat necrosis 5 from tummy tuck 2019. It makes me look bloated
I have hard lumps on my scars from gynocomastia surgery …you can see the lumps through my t shirt …hopefully it fades away like you said …thanks
Here is a video talking about how to get the very best scar after surgery. ua-cam.com/video/9jGznj47xw8/v-deo.html
@@DrWilliamMiami thanks for taking the time to reply …much appreciated 🙏🏻💕
Why they do the cut like that???
Should be like a triangle ,from the sides .
Should you massage the scar around the belly button also?
Every scar benefits from scar massage.
Hi Doctor William, very informative video, thank you. Do you think doing vasular laser (V-beam) will help with healing a tummy tuck scar like the one in the video? In terms of making the scar heal faster, breaking up the raised fibrous bits, and removing the redness? Thank you.
I don't know of anything that will make the scar heal faster--all of the young, immature, fetal collagen has to be replaced in the incision and this takes time. The redness is there because there is increased blood flow because your incision needs the increased blood supply to heal.
Hi Dr William, can I get my umbilical hernia fixed while getting lipo?
Hi dr Williams! How long after TT surgery can we start massaging the scar with silicone product?
The scar massage I recommend starting at 3 weeks after surgery and performing twice a day for two minutes at a time for 12 months. Yes--12 months! For patients that become compulsive massagers of their scars you can't believe how good they look at 12 months. So much different than those patients who do not massage their scars. I have seen this over and over again.
Does that scar ever go away???
I think over time it’s less visible, but it’s still there.
I have. Scheduled tummy tuck later this year, the video was in lighting on after treatment and concerns
Hello Dr. Williams. What if you’re 19 months post op and still have the hardness in that same Abdomen area where the blood supply was lost due to the TT. What do you recommend for treatment?
I wish I had a good answer for that, but right now we don't have any proven method to help with that. I would see your plastic surgeon to see if they have any recommendations for PRP, or fat grafting or possible resection of the area but speak with your surgeon.
@@DrWilliamMiami thank you so much
Is there any scar if only do muscle tightening but not removing extra skin ?
There would be a scar in order to access the muscle.
Mine looks so much worse than hers. Im three months out from surgery. I have two wounds on the left side of my incision I’m having to treat with bactracin and packing with gauze. I have a very noticeable area of fat necrosis in the same area pointed out here. But mine looks way worse. Still quite swollen. My surgeon says it may take a year to see good results. I’m thinking it will be longer than that and at my age it may never heal well. I shouldn’t have done this at age 66.
Same for me to I was scared thinking that I have seroma but no because under the incision is big an hard an swelling im mo nth an half post op I this video have calm my anxiety
How can you dissolve that fat. I had a TT 7y ago.
My Dr never mentioned massages. I think he's worried about what it looks like and not how I feel.
I'm 1yr out from a 360 lift, I also had diastasis repair, my stomach is still real hard in the lower center, will my abdomen soften back up or am I always going to have a hard stomach?
IT will usually soften but there are a small group of patients who do remain hard. Massage and rolling help.
Is is possible to get a tummy tuck, 360.lipo and BBL in one surgery?
yes.
Hello Dr. Williams I had gallbladder surgery 20 years ago and they gave me a big scar in my stomach I would like to know if I could get a tummy tuck
Yes you can. I had my gallbladder removed which created a big scar on my right side. So like me you will have the tummy tuck scar down the middle and then across the bikini area ❤️
Okay I understand why is formed but what to do about it. Would radio frequency help?
Time and massage are the best. I know people frequently use RFA but I admit I don't know the data on this to really ay one way or another but it is usually accompanied by massage which is valuable.
Is there any possibility to remove surgical scars please?
No you can't remove them but this patient is still very early on in her recovery so the scar will be red for about another year and then begin to fade. Most patients are terrified of the scar and then after a year they are happy with their shape and rarely complain about the scar.
Can you get a BBL with butt implants, after a tummy tuck with liposuction on the sides if you still have fat in your back.
I have the same hardness thanks alot
Thank you.
Hi. I am checking up on you. How are you a year later....is it better and softer?
I did myomectomy surgery for fibroids and the doctor cut me like her my surgery is the same like her the tummy tuck is it OK how they cut me?😢
Surgeons always try to make incisions as small as necessary but sometimes when removing a mass it is large and requires a large incision.
Hi doctor, What you think about fat dissolving inyection treatment like aqualyx? May it help dissolved that fat necrosis? I have this same situation. I’m 10 months post op.
No it would only make it worse by dissolving the fat around the necrosis. The necrosis is calcified and not amenable to the dissolvent.
Thank you !
I have that above my scar it’s really Buffy. I want it removed. It’s very obvious. I’m 16 months post op. I still don’t have all my feeling back from getting the TT. I also still use my Scar Silicone Gel.
Im 17 days of my mini tummy tuck. My incisions are itching n red but the top of the incision it’s swollen still n not flat ?it’s that. Or am ? Should I put my faja on
Here is a video explaining how scars heal: ua-cam.com/video/o3dxObGokV0/v-deo.html
Hi, can you please talk about a BBL after a fleur-de-lis TT.🙏
It is the same as for a regular tummy tuck.
@@DrWilliamMiami Thank you 😊 🙏, for your quick response..
I can't wait for my OGEE🍑 10/12 ,Cheese!📸!
That cut is huge!!! I had a major surgery for health reasons and the cut was a lot smaller and just on top the bikini line ( it is maybe 4-5 inches). The cut healed very fast and I never had scaring nor hardness and is no longer visible. It is important to know that up to two months before surgery people should consume a lot of food high in vitamin C.
Yes the incision for a tummy tuck is lot bigger than someone having a hysterectomy for example. The hysterectomy incision needs to be long enough to allow the surgeon to work and remove the tumor but in a tummy tuck we are removing skin so it has to be as long as necessary to remove all of the skin. You can't do a tummy tuck through a small incision because that would leave skin hanging on the sides.
Does HBOT therapy help with fat necrosis? I’m thinking of doing this my next round.
There is not good data to support the use of hyperbaric for fat necrosis. HBOT has good data for necrosis of the bone after radiation therapy so it is used commonly there but I don't think HBOT would hurt after having plastic surgery it's just that we don't have the studies to support that statement and we try to practice based on experimental evidence. Excellent question--thank you!
I asked because I had fat necrosis my first round ( surface and it leaked out ) however I need a second round. I’m scared it may happen again. I was thinking of doing a few sessions before and after. I know that drinking tons of water prior to surgery helps the skin for infecting fat. If you see this comment again, please any recommendations or tips. Thank you for your time Doc.
I had lipotropic injections and have small hard spots on stomach. My clinican said the fat has to dissolve and is taking long due to a slow metabolism. Any suggestions thank you
How you are feeling now is it gone
Still getting lymphatic massages. Some spots have gone away with massages but should have stayed away from the lipo shots!
@@portiatamika9041 oh I too have some hard spots it's been 3 days
Im scheduled for a TT2 with you for August 2, 2022. Will a massage roller suffice? And what is the best recommended silicone scar cream?
I am wondering what scar cream his recommend as well.
thanks for sharing and I love those clear explanations with the added vfx arrows.
Got my tummy tuck 5 weeks ago and have some ball shape lump on my left flank that is probably that not externally visible so it's not so bad but still we worry haha.
Been working on massaging around my scar and I am getting a lot of fibrosis where I feel almost like my skin is taped on the inside and it diminishes freedom of movement. Anything else than massages recommended to reduce that? I have been using a massage gun and it helped a lot and removed so folds that I had around my scar and gave back some flexibility. Tried to massage that bulge wound up giving myself a big bruise. I have no regrets that surgery is life changing. I had about 4 inches of abs separation and my lower abs were simply unusable for the past 12 years. When I lifted my legs inadvertently using those lower abs 2 weeks ago I was elated I felt no one could actually understand when I tried to explain that my lower abs didn't work. Just the abs repair alone would be worth it and getting rid of that skin flab and a little lipo on the flanks I can't believe it's my own body and I am still a bit swollen. UA-cam has been a great resource to calm down worries before and after and it's great to stumble on great quality content.
Can fat necrosis be small different size hard bumps underneath the scar or is it always a big bulging area ?
It can be both of those things. A small little pebble that is deep and is barely noticeable or it can be a much larger areas closer to the skin that is much more noticeable.
I watch all your videos I chose you as my doctor but you don't work on people after 50 and I'm 57 I had a tummy tuck I think I have an incision infection it's just eating away at my flesh and it just keeps opening wider and wider and wider it's white green red p**** green I really need your professional opinion if I could send you photos God bless you Dr William
I am sorry to hear that. Unfortunately if you are not my patient I really can't give you medical advice. Trust your surgeon he or she has your best interests at heart.
@@DrWilliamMiami yes I had surgery on the 7th and they said my surgeon went out of the country and he won't be able to see me I've been to I a lot of places where they sent me. I didn't want to mention it for all the other viewers.
I just pray in Jesus name I'll be able to see my surgeon soon cuz it continually gets worse and worse and worse.
My stomach just exploded with all kinds of liquids and my insision it's wide open.
Sounds like you should be in ER not on YT
I have the same concern. 2 months post op 😞
Would a revision fix it, if it didn’t go away on its own?