@ThunderGodTG You should do a video of how strong obito could be, if he kept both his eyes rather than give it to Kakaahi when he was crushed. He still gets captured by Madara. That's till applies.
@@dillianwhyte443The Show MOST likely ends at Naruto’s Birth. Dual MS Obito’s Kamui was fast enough to COUNTER SoSP Juubidara’s Truth Seeking Orbs 😂. Minato is the ONLY person able to counter Kamui. With him gone, it’s a WRAP for the Shippuden Verse. Pain, Itachi (YES), and the rest are getting WASHED.
I feel like people downplay having the upper hand against peak condition orochimaru plus those two edo tensei, crazy Not many characters can do that, so prime Hiruzen has to be dangerous
I'd definitely like to see a prime Hiruzen series that showed him to be more competent than the filler episodes did. Hanzo, Sannin, various legendary ninja since then....and yet, he was the only other God of Shinobi besides Hashirama? That definitely means he had to have done something amazing to not just earn that title but keep it for decades
Hiruzen could still use Lightning Style to counter-act Kisame's Water Style....and I'm pretty sure Enma as the Adamantine Staff is a physically stronger/tougher material than Samehada so it's possible it could literally just break Samehada in half or damage it extremely so
Hiruzen was able to not only contest with a near prime Orochimaru, but also imperfect Edo clones of Hashirama and Tobirama. He was doing all of that while he was OLD! Imagine him in his actual prime! Even his Edo form doesn’t truly show what he’s capable of since he’s still in his old form. I’m sure if his Edo was younger, he would be EVEN MORE impressive then what was shown in the War Arc against Juubito and Madara. Also, a lot of people seem to agree that even the “perfected” Edo Tensei versions of everyone aren’t nearly as strong as the original/alive versions. This is shown through Madara, as when he becomes a real boy again, he becomes significantly stronger (Even without eyes!). That is why Madara leaves the Edo Tensei state and chooses to come back to life fully. The same thing could probably be said about the other Hokages, such as alive Minato > Edo Minato. The only real advantage that the Edo state gives is infinite stamina, chakra regen, and body regeneration. That just further proves that the Edo Hiruzen during the War Arc wouldn’t be an accurate representation of what Hiruzen can do, especially not for his prime! Sadly that’s all we can go off of though 😅
Saying that the gedo statue is OVER the five Kage is an elaborate stretch! The 5 Kage unlike the hiruzen don’t have unlimited chakra like edo hiruzen, and they never were using amps like Naruto’s chakra , they came from dying got restored by tsunade who by the way heals and replenishes chakra using HER OWN CHAKRA! At full power the five Kage would vaporize tht statue as it’s not of the level or size of the 25 susanoo clones nor is it big enough to tank the combo attack a fatigued 5 Kage used to destroy the 25 clones and half of edo Madara. And “Sannin” level is the level those 3 were on in the rain village when they were young! ALL 3 Sannin passed hiruzen in power!!
Over might have been poor wordplay we were just saying it was strong enough to just completely stone wall so version of the 5 Kage with some amount of chakra reserves, of course at FP it’d be different.
Here is the thing with dedira vs sasuke… sasuke was never trying to kill him so dedira was never in any real danger until he gave up that info. Sasuke was confident he could beat him and get info first… so hiruzen definitely wouldn’t struggle nor would he hesitate to kill… he only hesitated to orochimaru cause he was his student and he still had feelings for him despite his evil deeds
Honestly im very happy everytime I see a new vid. My man TG, i dunno why but you bring out positivity out of everyone that comes to your channel and you yourself have the energy for me always feel excited for every single vid. You came a long way since I started like couple years ago, I love how in depth you get with every explanation and even adress things people might have issues with in advance. Thank you TG, you are my favourite powerscaler on this platform :)
Sasuke was also trying to question/capture Deidara for info on Itachi the whole fight. He could've used Kirin to just kill him otherwise (granted it'd prob be a weaker version without the heat from Itachi's Amaterasu)
I’m soooo glad you made this video he really needs a light novel or mini ep. (I’m about to type a paragraph) (Head canon) I personally think full power Hiruzen fights kinda like a pseudo 6 paths > He summons prob max 4 other clones but these clones are CRACKED by og Naruto standards so these. Clones will be really smart and prob a little more durable then most other clones. Then he is also summoning Enma. Now we take into account the little we see of what Hiruzen can do with the clones in the war arc. ( using the 4 elements at once reaper etc.) So my head canon is that Hiruzen because he can use all known justu in Konoha could use shadow style - partial expansion justu - mind transfer justu, etc. BUT just that combo alone is insane with his clones imagine what he can do with those justu in COMBINATION. Then I also believe that Hiruzen like Danzo (because they grew up in same time) he probably would have and use really strong summons (other than Enma) in conjunction with his other justu. & I have a sneaking suspicion there is a small chance hiruzen could also use some justu that require 2 release like storm release etc. ones that aren’t Kekei Genkai (Ooooo just finished the video while typing hoping for that Hiruzen light novel, We can’t accurately give hiruzen every justu in the leaf without evidence )
Only real 'contention' I have is Hiruzen saying to Oro it wont be as easy as it was with Rasa. Like regardless if its true or not, he would just say that anyways, as a ninja, lol. Like he isnt just gonna give roll over and die, like hes old but he isnt just gonna be like "alright, ya got me!" And keel over 😂 especially with his conviction as a ninja. Its the same as Naruto/Sasuke vs Ishiki in that regard. They know they cant really win, but they'll try anyways, even with their lives on the line, to protect the village/world. (+Hiruzen doesnt know about Kimimaro even if he DOES know about Rasa's true strength, lol)
In the anime, Hiruzen managed to push the FULL Nine-Tailed Beast back several miles with his Enma Summoning/staff. The Nine-Tails wasn’t split yet! And as they mentioned in the video, Hiruzen had to be strong enough to stand his ground and withstand the opposing force needed to push back Kurama. So it’s not just Enma carrying him in accomplishing this feat, but also his own strength.
Deidara stomps, with no arms and a kunai in his mouth he successfully evaded Guy Lee Neji TenTen Kakashi and Naruto, and would’ve killed them all if it wasn’t for Kakashi kamui , he’s also known to utilize clay clones so Hiruzen is not blitzing him,
Honestly, Hiruzen and his clones could just use the elements that beat the elenents Kakuzu's hearts are firing at him, rather than using the same ones. Never understood why he didn't do this in the Guruguru fight..
The Sasori downplay is crazy. Hiruzen did not know Orochimaru needed a dying Kimimaro to easily defeat Raza and had Kimimaro been their Hiruzen would have been killed just as easy and without dealing any major damage to Orochimaru. Hell he barely took Orochimarus arms in the 1v1. The third Kazekage was much stronger than Raza and was killed by Sasori himself. Granny Chiyo fought with Hanzo many times even developing a cure for his poison, the same man who fodderized the Sanin. This puts Chiyo above Sanin level in speed and strength even in her old age as she exceeded the young sanin enough to consistently battle against Hanzo enough to develop a cure. Sasori is stronger faster and more skilled than chiyo and Sakura only survived due to Chiyo guiding her, the antidotes, and her monster strength (that only her Tsunade and Hashirama possess the chakra control to pull off) allowed her to destroy the puppets in one touch. And even after all of that Sasori still won (he gave up). Sasori has multiple Uchiha puppets with 3 tome, inferring he has killed enemies faster and with greater reaction time than him. Also Sakura only destroyed the third Kazekage puppet after baiting an attack by playing dead (the antidote made this possible). And when it comes to a fight against Sasori we are asking if the oppenent can clear the Third Kazekage, 100 puppets, Sasori's puppet boddy himself, and also not fall victim to the late fight surprise attack that a field littered with broken puppets provides Sasori. Can the oppenent get through all of that without being cut or inhaling poison gas ONCE. Hiruzen cannot beat Sasori
Hanzo scales above a weaker Sannin Jiraya thinks Base is a High Diff fight against a Hanzo level opponent with SM putting him a tier above. You actually can never show that Chiyo scales to Hanzo in raw stats you can argue she was a medic on the battlefield since that’s her most notable attribute and cited the most in the Databooks, which goes in line with her finding cures. The Chiyo/Hanzo meta is so unbelievably bad and has so many holes in it. The Third Kazekage is just “stronger” we don’t know by how much and we know it was a high diff unknown fight. He also only scales above War Arc Gaara that fought Rasa and that’s it b/c Gaara gets stated stronger so you can’t link the Third to either of them anymore. Chiyo notes literally towards the end of the Sasori fight Sakura doesn’t need her anymore idk what to tell you brother.
@ThunderGodTG Chiyo out of her own mouth as an edo tensei says she fought Hanzo multiple times, and concted an antidote, she even detailed how long it takes for the Salamander to produce poison, this is something that needs to be observed in combat. This infers that she was comparable to prime Hanzo as she did not get killed, stomped or spared by him. Even in old age she would still be relative to her prime, meaning Sasori was throwing at least Sannin speed attacks which scales to Hiruzen who got beaten by Orochimaru in a weakened body. Yall saying Sasori is too slow is utter bs. Garra only proved himself as powerful as an Edo Raza or alive Raza, not stronger than the third Kazekage, and while it is an off screen fight for Sasori , it still happened. And once again Sasori tagged both Chiyo and Sakura with posion well before that point and only lost his strongest puppet due to the antidote allowing Sakura's surprise attack. If they did not have the antidote they die before the third kazekage puppet is even destroyed. Also she only dodged Iron sand world order because Chiyo was controlling her and enhancing her movements. Also Sakura was able to hang late into the fight due to the antidote and her monster strength technique, allowing her to quickly get rid of Sasori's puppets, never allowing them to truly swarm her atyempt to launch a counter aack as they are filled with weapons. Hiruzen would have to rely on Enma in staff form to one shot the puppets unless he tried spamming big elemental jutsu which would be countered by the iron sand mostly. Hiruzen doesn't have the defense nor the fire power to directly counter Iron Sand World Order. If he somehow breaks the third Kazekage he has to break 100 puppets plus Sasori's body and deduce he has core before being scratched by a Sasori who can also switch his core out of other puppet bodies ruined or not, leaving Hiruzen open to a surprise attack if he even got that far. It's a bad match up for Hiruzen.
For anyone wondering for Konan please check out the last 10 Seconds, we actually forgot her during the whole process and I was actually planning on just recording that part separately but, I just didn't delay the video, APOLOGIES!
@@MrBrianpdj hokage Kakashi is unironically second strongest hokage due to his "orders of magnitude" stronger statement. That's at the bare minimum 100x chakra increase and it was also stated he's stronger than what he was when fighting Obito and Madara. So for him to be stronger without having kamui spam in the war he had to grew to an insane degree - he literally blitzed kunoichi that perception blitzed 4th raikage who had years of training. Boruto powercliffing at its finest
@@metroplextitan8816There’s no way in hell Kakashi is stronger than Hashirama. I don’t care about statements. He doesn’t have the feats to back that up.
I have to disagree on the hiruzen knowledge translation discussion. It’s clearly intended to be a parallel and comparison to characters we already know. Kakashi copied over a 1000 jutsu. He knows over 1000 illusions alone. Same thing with orochimaru he knows all jutsu in the leaf, orochimaru wants to learn all jutsu. These statements and comparisons don’t make sense if he’s just aware of them.
I agree with you. Early in the series, the number of jutsu a person knew was sort of used to scale their power. The best Jonin had copied 1,000 total, but Hiruzen knew 1,000 illusions alone. That just implies he is leagues above Kakashi.
I mean it's just what the translation says idk what to tell you, he can still know 1000 jutsu and not have mastery of all of the Hidden Lead Jutsu just like Kakashi knows a 1000 and not all of them are from the leaf
Hiruzen my GOAT❤️🔥 If you don't mind some glazing..... Old Hiruzen: -While being the 2nd oldest person on earth he was above the Sannin and literally 1v3 Orochimaru (with arms), Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama. If any random shinobi did a single one of those things they would be hailed as incredibly powerful. -Was still considered the strongest of the 5 Kage which puts 70+yr old Hiruzen above the likes of 4th Raikage who was a near KCM1 level threat -His Edo feats are actually still applicable to his 70yr old self considered Edo gives you infinite *_re-filling_* chakra not "more chakra" meaning that whatever jutsus or feats Edo Hiruzen managed to pull off in the war he'd be able to pull off in his Alive Old self like his Guru Guru feat (unless those feats have too much to do with endurance or stamina of an edo)........ ...... ......... on a side note Old Man Hiruzen's stamina is absolutely cracked considered he went straight hands with 2 of the most dangerous Hokage (even though they were weaker) and then _still_ stood still for God knows how long holding down Orochimaru with a Sword through his chest AND the Reaper Death Seal's Arm plunged through him. 10yr younger Hiruzen: Fought off the Nine-Tails for a time and _physically_ overpowered it and managed to push it from the centre to the edge of the entire village. The only other person in history to ever physically overpower the Nine-Tails was Hashirama himself, and he used Wood Style to supress it.
Can you discuss sage mode Naruto from the Pain arc vs. Old man Hiruzen from the Konoha Crush arc. Also, MS Sasuke vs. the same Hiruzen. I haven't seen those fights done yet.
It’s possible but we actually know when Kakashi uses genjutsu on Danzo’s anbu you can genjutsu multiple people at the same time. Itachi also does it in the light novel so he could ironically catch both of them lacking.
Menma vs the Akatsuki. I also think Minato is a lot Stronger than people thought. Anko and Hiruzen both felt like Orochimaru in his prime would have stood no chance against him if he was still alive.
Hiruzen vs tobirama is a very interesting topic but I personally think tobirama is stronger than any version of hiruzen that isn’t prime based on his statements and feats like him being praised by madara his feats against jubito while weaker than his prime because he is edo and there’s more I can say but you get my point
@@aurthurpendragon1015 I guess it depends which version too, early taka sasuke gets destroyed but five kage/danzou Sasuke can drag the fight thanks to susano'o
For a minute, I forgot what video I was watching. When you got to Hidan I was like “wait… what?” 😂 I could listen to you guys talk about Hiruzen alone for an hour.
Good video , albeit i had some interjections. The enma being the strongest summon statement being used to argue that he's stronger than ma and pa seems wrong. Generally in the community, we for the most part take data book statements as valid for everything shown up until that point. If not u would be arguing that enma is stronger than kurama (summoned by obito and madara), or the gedo mazo (summoned by nagato and obito). Additionally trying to imply that hiruzen and enma are the strongest summoning team wiuld just be invalid cuz naruto rocked up with a bunch of summons to fight pain, and if u want to be pedantic, the animal path summoned the other 5 paths. Secondly, the hiruzen being stronger than the other 5 kage is due to his lore by kabuto and unless kabuto has been watching ay or ohnoki fight he'd also be basing that off their lore as well. Additionally, the data book statement that is commonly used to infer that kage most specifically hiruzen as being greater than the other 5 nations literally the next sentence in that statement is "none can compete with his wisdom ". Feels like just strenght might not be what is being covered. Not to mention that the kazekage has a more concrete version of that statement but everyone (and i agree) relegate the statement to only applying to the sand village. Feels like cherry picking. Ive mentioned b4 how ay is not stronger than b, but the general run down is that b has had superior showings in all their comparative battles, like against minato, base sharingan sasuke, and against each other. Also virthue arguing that ay was holding back against b doesn't mean jack cuz b was in base. So unless u want to argue that the power up ay will get from going v2 from v1 is massively different from what b will get from going base to v2, that argument makes no sense. Also hiruzen's clones matching gur guru zetsu (ggz) elemental attacks while impressive shouldn't be used to put him above the 5 kage. They were clearly fatigued as we see ay not fighting with his lightning cloak. If they were at full power it wouldn't make any sense why they didn't just use the giant particle style combo they used on madara on ggz. I personally take this "prime" hiruzen as being more comparable to ay, tsunade and ohnoki. Also u mentioned that hiruzen was more talented that tobirama and he lived longer so the inference is that he should be relative or superior. However, its been shown in naruto that hard work plays a massive role in one's development (eg lee or naruto). Not to say hiruzen doesn't work hard but tobirama in the data books is listed as being one of the people most focused on personal development. U could just infer he worked a lot harder than hiruzen so the comparison btwn the 2 doesn't hold 4 me. Finally, my major problem, given u guys avoid it for the most part is the problem that a lot of people in the community keep thinking that being greater than or better than something means that ur automatically a blitz tier above or absolutely one shot the previous guy. Hiruzen's fire style being greater than itachi wouldn't mean it automatically disperses and oneshots itachi's but i believe it would overcome it like sasuke's did. All in all good video.
I agree with most of this although I also have some interjections, the enma point and blitz tier point specifically I pushed a lot on the channel so I’m surprised to actually see it brought up but, it could have just been a lack of clarity on outside on the matter. Hiruzen vs Tobiramais its own sub topic but, we also know that certain talented Shinobi can just bypass others despite others working hard I.E Sasuke vs Lee being an example. So Tobirama working harder just isn’t necessarily a defeater for me when discussing a much more Prime Version of the character. Heck we even see Boruto be a prime example of that how so much raw talent can trump any amount of hard work, so it’s just way too loose to say imo b/c Tobirama is more dedicated to self improvement he’d be stronger. It’d be also somewhat similar to Guy & Kakashi with Kakashi having periods where he’s lazy/not training compared to Guy who’s training every day and they’re always ~ or Kakashi is just stronger it’s not a 1:1 I also agree with the Guru Guru point and am under the same assumption and go with that same logic in the vid. The 5 Kage are all fatigued yet Hiruzen is just far more impressive than all of them + the fatigued Shinobi Divison he fought. I thought I worded that correctly in the vid and have said it before but, maybe I just didn’t here. I agree with Kabuto’s lore point however it should be noted Kabuto worked as a spy for every great village so he should actually have a good idea of each of the Kage’s strengths or have some metric to judge off of. Not saying it’s 100% of course as characters do improve or he may not have seen the Kage fight, but in terms of cross village knowledge he is one of the more reputable characters imo. The strongest summoning team would not be in reference to SM Naruto since that comes after the statement and even then it’s questionable, which I prob should have made a note on. Just my 2 cents on a lot of these points I’ve just said on other vids or just flat out agree with and maybe just didn’t word correctly.
@@ThunderGodTGI probably worded it wrongly, the blitz thing was more of a complaint for the community and not specifically the video. All in all good discussion. However while it's it's own topic, u have guy and kakashi as an example of hard work overcoming talent. And the difference in talent was never really discerned. Kakashi, minato and itachi are all talented but one is more talented than the other
Oh yeah nah I was just throwing out a few examples I was more so saying that with that one that Guy is extremely talented in Taijutsu and works MUCH harder than Kakashi at least in Part 1 yet it’s usually never putting him leagues ahead. Bad example on my end The whole talent thing can def be debated more so making a general point that more talented Shinobi one way or another just find ways to shortcut or catch up which is consistent with a the theme of each generation surpassing the last.
HIruzen is not in his prime when he is 10 years younger as Oro says "Even if you were just 10 years younger" implying that at bare minimum 10 years younger
Hi TG. Been loving the Hiruzen respect lately. There's some shorthand ways to do these. Hidan and Kakuzu scale as high as pre-War Kakashi, who does not scale to Hiruzen. Deidara scales as high as Onoki, who does not scale to Hiruzen. Sasori scales as high as Third Kazekage or Granny Chiyo, who both do not scale to Hiruzen. Kisame scales as high as pre-War Guy or V2 Killer Bee, who both do not scale to Hiruzen. Itachi scaling is hard to pin down, but I don't think he scales to Hiruzen. Pain is the fairest match here and should be the main topic, but I lean that Pain and Hiruzen are relative. Obito cheats his way to victory, but I think Hiruzen under these circumstance could pull the win sometimes. I did just want to say Sasori got a little downplay here. Sasori wasn't fighting Sakura's speed, he's fighting Chiyo's puppet speed and combat wisdom. Chiyo expected to be able to kill Sakumo Hatake in her old age and survived fighting Hanzo several times, so she's no slouch. I don't think Chiyo scales to Hiruzen or anything crazy like that, just giving some credit to Sasori where it's due because it's really hard to give him any most of the time. It is technically possible for Sasori to manage a scratch on Hiruzen and get a win off the one hit kill nature of the poison if Hiruzen is going in with no intel, which is why puppet technique is worth using at all. How often does that actually happen? Probably almost never. Perspective: Orochimaru was able to no diff Sasori, and Orochimaru was scared of the older Hiruzen while having Hashirama and Tobirama in his pocket, and had intended to bring Minato and Kimimaro with him to fight Hiruzen. And you're using a stronger version of Hiruzen for this discussion. Not much nuance to Kisame, base Kisame gets absolutely clowned but if Kisame survives long enough to get into Shark Form then Hiruzen could potentially lose to Water Prison Shark Dance because that ability is outright ridiculous. Itachi is difficult, but I think Hiruzen has it the majority of the time. I know you like to ignore the Jiraiya statement, but we don't need to use it for this. Itachi's last living fights were against Yagura, Hebi Sasuke, and Hydra Orochimaru, which can establish the floor. Yagura is below Hiruzen by statement, Hebi Sasuke is below Hiruzen for a lot of reasons, and Hydra Orochimaru is almost unscaleable beyond knowing that it can survive getting chopped up by Susanoo. We could argue either way on Hydra Orochimaru vs Hiruzen, but it's not very valid either way because Orochimaru pretty much unalived himself by deliberately standing still and tanking the Totsuka Blade. Rasenshuriken would have just as easily killed Orochimaru there. KCM1 Naruto and Bee don't get tagged by anything Itachi does during their encounter in the War. Itachi manages to take out the Rinnegan summons while Kabuto is actively focused on fighting KCM1 Naruto and Bee with Nagato. During his encounter with Sage Kabuto directly, he is effectively caught and killed several times over and only able to continue by virtue of being an immortal zombie. This establishes a ceiling of Itachi below KCM1 Naruto, wherever you may put Killer Bee at that point in time, and Sage Kabuto. This then reframes the question to be if you think Hiruzen scales above those characters. Late in the War, Hiruzen is shown fighting alongside Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato and KCM2 Naruto. If you're on the interpretation that A4 is above Killer Bee, then Hiruzen is above Killer Bee just on that. No matter how you slice it up, Hiruzen has an obvious advantage here. All that being said, I still put this fight as moderate difficulty for Hiruzen and Itachi could take the W off him a few times if the fight plays out his way. Pain is also difficult, but I lean towards Pain on this one just because his bag of tricks is so deep on top of him having really strong countermeasures to most of Hiruzen's techniques even though I think this hypothetical version of Hiruzen might be stronger point for point. I mentioned on stream that I think Hiruzen vs Sage Naruto is a good topic because that's when it can be argued that Naruto has become stronger than Tsunade. When everyone learns Jiraiya's defeat at the hands of Pain, Tsunade says that if Jiraiya couldn't beat him then no one in the village can, which would include herself. Depending on your interpretation of the statements and context surrounding Naruto having surpassed Jiraiya and Minato with his learning of Sage Mode, you can make a solid case that Naruto is stronger than any of the current Kage after his defeat of Pain. Most people argue that Sage Naruto is not as strong as Pain, and that he only won that fight because the deck was so heavily stacked in his favor. There's the apples to oranges of Sage Mode vs KCM as well. Hiruzen has some feats and showings fighting alongside fights of that level, which is why I think Hiruzen vs Pain is equally interesting and could have been its own video. Obito is pretty much Hiruzen getting blown out unless we think the speed tier is there for him and we think Hiruzen has the battle IQ to set a trap. For clarification, Minato vs Obito was not even remotely close, Minato was so much faster than him that Obito couldn't even touch him while sneaking up on him, and then Obito couldn't react to any attack Minato threw at him. Hiruzen in the War arc is shown reacting and observing to Juubito, who is much faster and stronger than that Obito. This one bugs me because I just don't see Hiruzen actually pulling it off, but based on feats and showings from the War he absolutely has the stats to do it. As always, love the vids and the lesser discussed topics and characters you cover. Keep up the good work.
Love your analysis and the extra context you provide in your comments. TG and Virhtue forgot to do a Konan section. What's your stance on that? Also, do you think Hiruzen is the strongest in Part One?
@@dualblades7742 Konan is hard to scale. The only thing we know for sure is that she's above Kisame and Sasori, below Jiraiya, and can threaten Obito enough to force Izanagi. You can ABC her above Kakuzu, Hidan and Deidara via Kisame and Sasori. It's reasonable to suggest she's above Orochimaru, Itachi and pre-War Kakashi on implication. It's implied that she's the one who caught the Seven Tails, which is consistent with her being above Deidara and Kisame. This is some old trivia that comes from some interviews with Kishi, but during the Pain Invasion it was intended for Konan to defeat the entire Aburame Clan while Pain defeats Tsunade, but he ended up omitting those fights due to time constraints. That was never made official, of course, but it shows his intent for Konan to be pretty strong and also ties a nice bow on Pain having defeated all three Sannin for the narrative's sake. As far as the specifics of Hiruzen vs Konan, I think Konan wins outright if you give her the 600 billion paper bombs. Without that, I give it to Hiruzen just based on his stats but I would put it as mid to high diff. Fire Style is shown to not be particularly effective on Konan without the hard counter of Oil, which Hiruzen doesn't have. Hiruzen's fire style is the highest in the series though, so maybe it doesn't matter. Engaging Konan in taijutsu is conceptually difficult due to the paper dispersion, but Hiruzen and Enma together could definitely overwhelm her. Strongest in Part One depends on if you're looking at it in isolation or if you're taking addition context from things that came after and where you draw lines. In isolation, you don't actually see what Minato does or how strong he exactly is, only that Hiruzen admits he could never defeat him. On that implication, you would have to say Minato. If you exclude Minato, then you can only say Jiraiya or Hiruzen due to the Jiraiya > Itachi and Itachi > Orochimaru statements. It's hard to say either way on Jiraiya vs Hiruzen and it comes down to how you value the offer of position of Hokage, but I give it to Jiraiya in Part One isolation but think arguing Hiruzen is just as valid. If you take addition context into account, the answer is Guy with Eight Gates or Minato. If you ignore those, the answer is Hiruzen or Jiraiya again but I would give it to Hiruzen and not really try to argue Jiraiya because War Arc scaling is just too crazy and you Hiruzen's feats all being Edo feats grey the whole thing up.
It’s a wipe obviously we just went into the more niche stuff people get into with Itachi, I’m pretty sure we mention it but I do think it’s a case of Susano’o wasn’t even necessary
Databook statements have to be taken with a grain of salt since they always seek to hype the characters. "Kakuzu in his fused form has no blindspots" - Yet this 80 year old man was outsmarted and either blitzed or taken by surprise by pre-Sage training Naruto.
Pretty sure all that was said in the manga/anime was that the 3rd Kazekage was the strongest of the Kazekage as of the Kazekage Rescue arc & that his iron sand was the deadliest weapon in the Sand's history
I think one of the saddest things for pain, is you never get to see a full powered deva unleashed with all the other ones with him. Like I think something that's crazy is the moment deva gets his power back against Naruto he like insta no difs Naruto with a wombo combo with the preta path. But imagine if they do that combo and then the one that steals your soul is there and alive too. Your getting your soul sucked out you get your chakra sucked while that's happening. The animal path can like summon the other pain members what's stopping him from like basically teleporting the rest of the pains on top of him and just crazy ganking whoever he's fighting
That’s the thing, SM Naruto never WON against Pain. Pain FOUGHT the ENTIRE LEAF VILLAGE (Except for Team Guy, and honestly their not making much of a difference) and WINS. Then CHAOTIC SHINRA TENSEI’S/ NUKES the ENTIRE HIDDEN LEAF 😂. After all this he fights full power non fatigued SM Naruto with Intel and Boss Toad summons while going for the KILL … yet Pain is going for the CAPTURE 😂. It’s not even funny how badly PAIN/NAGATO washes EVERYONE that’s NOT Hashirama (and this can go either way (Hashirama>
The Oro absorption isn’t that big of a buff imo since Sasuke had never planned to absorb Oro in the first place, so he was already planning to fight Itachi without factoring it in. The White Snake mainly offered some minor regen+stamina along with the Oro style substitution as opposed to some insane power boost. It’s also never noted as a significant power loss by Jugo after Sasuke loses it & the curse mark so the series just doesn’t treat it like a crazy buff either.
The 5 kage reference was horrible. They got cut in half by Madara and healed. They were at best 5-10% power left. Hiruzen is NOT above them cause of that. In fact Onoki has better feats than Hiruzen EVER just by that Madara fight
I do believe we mention they run out of chakra mid fight and mention they had fought Madara, but the important thing is that they plus the amplified alliance run out of chakra trying to beat up Guru Guru and fatigue themselves. Ofc the Kage aren’t 100% we just don’t know how weakened they were, the point however was that Hiruzen’s shadow clones which are substantially weaker than he is can just replace the Kage with their varying levels of fatigue so it’s just impressive. Onoki does not in fact have better feats from that Madara fight tho.
@@ThunderGodTG*Right now as we speak I’m still listening to your video so I’m commenting on points along the way that’s more comments and engagement for you so good 😂😂* *But all jokes aside. Looking at best feats, the strongest persons Hiruzen has EVER fought was an Edo Hashirama & Orochimaru. & Edo Hashirama was NO WHERE CLOSE to his actual strength as it was CONFIRMED in shippuden that Orochimaru’s EDO TENSEI WAS TRASH & they were much closer to 100% in shippuden when he used Hashirama’s cell to strengthen his Edo tensei Jutsu making it better. Kabuto’s was superior before Orochimaru used it in the war. Madara was closer to 100%. & that same Madara stated that the ONLY WAY the Kage were still fighting effectively & not completely defeated was because of Onoki. Edo Madara (shippuden) >>> Edo Hashirama & Tobirama in Hiruzen fight. Let’s be real. Feat over everything*
@@ThunderGodTG*Onoki also stopped tons of Madara clones with Susano’o legs, saving the Raikage’s life and all in the process. & again, there’s no one even CLOSE to Madara’s level that Hiruzen ever even fought EVER! The Hashirama he fought was again SEVERELY weakened & no where close to Shipuuden Edo Madara*
"Expolsive velocity" Dont downplay my boy Deidara. He has excellent jutsu casting speed and his jutsus/birds/bugs travel fast too. There's more elements to speed than just martial arts. And he has good reaction speeds as shown in all of his fights. His arsenal just is that he's not a hand to hand fighter. It's like how we don't call gaara slow because his justsu is fast. The data books even say he is fast.
Exactly deidera being slower on his legs doesn't really matter when he fights in the air anytime he's even remotely serious and not completely fatigued . The velocity thing is just dumb it's part of the Justu therefore it's part of the Justus speed . Imaging making that same argument with biju bombs or anything that expands .
I don’t disagree with you he’s displayed Faster in the Air with very fast explosives especially looking at the Onoki encounter. He’s just weaker close range which is fine.
I actually kinda made a case that Hiruzen in 9 tails attack could be this famous "Prime" Hiruzen. We know several versions of hiruzen 1. First great war Hiruzen 2. Sannin bell test hiruzen 3. Nine tails attack hiruzen 4. Uchiha Massacre Hiruzen 5. Konoha Crush hiruzen So, we know that Hiruzen is around 19 years older than the sannin(Part one sannin - 50 and hiruzen is 69) Which means 13/12 years before he was 56/57. If he is 19 years older than the sanning then during bell test he should be 25. It's actually very young, it's almost the age of minato death and he is not even in his real world physical prime yet. "Prime" in naruto is different than in real world, we see that ninja that continues to train and learn can still grow stronger until his body will start to give up. 1. Sannin are most likely stronger or the same strenght as in their prime. 2. Onoki is implied to be stronger as an old man 3. Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama seems to be in their forties(Or even later) and they show absoltely no sings of getting weaker due to age. 4. Kakashi gets massively stronger from age 26 to 45? and it seems that he will continue to grow for some time still. It seems kinda like one piece case, when characters "prime" is last time we see them before their hairs lose color. Hiruzen during 9 tails attack is the last time he is fighting so it makes sense for him to "retire" after this incident(And right after that he gets white hair) I think that 56 years old should be actually more prime than 24 in naruto world(It's even age when izuna died and madara grows much stronger from this point on and he is only getting older) and only around 3 years older than sannin are in shipuuden and they show absolutely NO SINGS of getting any weaker due to age. What do you think about this?
@@ThunderGodTG deidara He is able to keep pace with onoki Even if scales below Sasuke in some areas has amazing hax and AP His c2 bombs one shot lower tailed beast, C3 can one shot a village ,C4 is great hax (hiruzen can't even know what is happening before he is dead) If the fight starts from a decent distance Diedara wins 9/10 times
He keeps with Onoki in the air and you can actually argue Onoki is keeping pace with Deidara and not going max speed since in that scene he actually wants to lure diedara away from turtle island, but again this is strictly ariel speed. Hebi Sasuke tanks the C2 bombs so clearly everything after is just upscaled so it would just apply to Hiruzen as well, but I do agree Ariel advantage Deidara does very well. I also think Hiruzen > Onoki is pretty supported with Hiruzen also have full knowledge on Onoki’s particle style adding to Kabuto’s statement but, that’s just my 2 cents
My take before watching the video: Old man Hiruzen - I think we can agree he's above the Sannin at least in their base forms. He seems relative to Orochimaru, but definitely above him. It's hard to say how much stronger he is because he was suppressed during most of the fight and caught Orochimaru and the Edo Tensei Hokages with the Shiki Fujin as soon as he got a mental amp from the Will of Fire. He could be around the level of SM Jiraiya or even SM Naruto. *Vs Pain - Let's highball him and say the latter is the case, I still think he loses to Pain, as even SM Naruto did and he had much more gas than old man Hiruzen. Hiruzen, however, has the experience and would take some paths out. If he has no intel on the Rinnegan abilities, then he loses sooner, and if he has, maybe he can kill the weaker ones, but then would lose to Tendou. Enma could also be very helpful, but he's not tanking a Shinra Tensei without being blown back, and I think the Asura path's missiles and lasers would probably be able to hurt him. Seeing how Tendou negged Gamabunta, Gamahiro and Gamaken with one casual Shinra Tensei, Enma would just take a bit more effort to defeat. However, I can see Enma himself beating down some of the paths. Hiruzen doesn't have the stamina, defenses and chakra reserves to win here. I also assume Shiki Fujin would be useless, although it would be funny if he caught a random path and the Shinigami's hand were able to reach Nagato through the chakra signal (since chakra has a spiritual component). *Vs Itachi - Hiruzen straight up loses against healthy Itachi. Against sick Itachi though, that would be a hard fight for both, but I think Itachi would still have the edge, specially given the fact he has a bunch of one-shot techniques. Old man Hiruzen in unquantifiably above Orochimaru, and Itachi consistently negs Orochi. When extremely nerfed, exausted, in pain from using the Susano'o, blind and minutes away from death, he no diffs Orochimaru's strongest form. So I give this to Itachi, high diff. *Vs Deidara - Haha C4 go brrrrr! C0 go boom! But otherwise Deidara probably gets stomped. Deidara had that much trouble with Hebi Sasuke, who is explicitly below prime Orochimaru. *Vs Konan - She maybe could tire Hiruzen out. Does Hiruzen have oil jutsu to neutralize her papers? He has no relation to the toads, but he knows a lot of jutsu and is Jiraiya's master... *Vs Kisame - Kisame wins low diff. Hiruzen may be above Orochimaru, but this man is built different. *Vs Obito - Obito wins mid-low diff. Prime Hiruzen - He is very hard to scale. Assuming his Edo version is close to his prime, he has some feats against Juubito in terms of reaction time and some feats against Guruguru who was using Yamato to amp his Wood Style. Lorewise he must be below Minato. Maybe also below Tobirama? But he is clearly near their level. *Vs Pain - I'd say Hiruzen beats Pain to a pulp mid-low diff. Tendou would be the most troublesome, but Hiruzen probably would be able to come up with a strategy to exploit the 5 sec cooldown of Shinra Tensei. Against Chibaku Tensei, he can die but he can also use Enma's staff form to protect him from the rocks (as he did to protect him from Hashirama's Jukai Koutan), and maybe even escape through a reverse summon. But given how stronger and faster he is, he might end up beating Tendou before he has a chance to use the Chibaku Tensei. If Hiruzen is in Naruto's position, Tendou would have to retreat in order to get close enough to Nagato to use the Chibaku Tensei. That worked against a berserk 6 tails Naruto who blindly pursued him, but Hiruzen could and probably would be able to intercept him as he was trying to "escape". *Vs Itachi - Given the fact he was able to react to Juubito, Hiruzen must be very fast, maybe even faster than healthy Itachi. If he's relative, he can win high diff. He he is faster, mid-low diff depending on how faster he is. He probably can dodge Amaterasu either way. However, I don't think he has the AP to break Itachi's Susano'o. If he's not so much faster as to consistently blitz Itachi, his only win con may be the Shiki Fujin. Otherwise he loses to Uchiha hax. This could be a very interesting fight. Sick Itachi gets stomped though. *Vs Deidara - Gets blitzed and stomped. His only win con is using C4 as a surprise attack. *Vs Konan - Blitzed and stomp. Hiruzen is not dying to her, the only question is whether or not he has a jutsu that can counter her. *Vs Kisame - Lowballing Hiruzen, he can win high diff, but Kisame will win if it becomes a battle of attrition. Taijutsu wouldn't be effective and regular Ninjutsu would get absorbed. Maybe his strongest Fire and Wind Style could harm Kisame. But I doubt Hiruzen has anything in his arsenal that overpowers the Super Shark Bomb. Shiki Fujin is, as always, a viable win con, but isn't that really a draw? If we highball Hiruzen, Kisame would get beaten in his own game of physical prowess and powerful Ninjutsu. The Super Shark Bomb would still be effective though. Hiruzen in this scenario wins mid diff. *Vs Obito - Orange Mask gets stomped, Hiruzen can probably counter attack even a surprise Kamui attempt. Do we have battle IQ feats for Hiruzen besides knowing he's a wise man? Can he decipher and counter Kamui? He has Shadow Clones, so he could do the same thing Naruto and Kakashi did. Can Obito phase through the shinigami's hand? Now, regarding White Mask Obito... I think he has a high chance of winning if we give him the Edo Jinchuuriki. They would overwhelm Hiruzen, and he has no answer to a Bijudama besides the hypothetical Reverse Summoning. Considering the 1v1, I think Hiruzen has a fair chance. Again, the man reacted to Juubito. If we scale him closer to Tobirama than to, say, KCM Naruto, then Hiruzen takes the win mid-high diff. If he can come up with a counter to Kamui, he most likely wins. Everyone I didn't mention gets stomped by both versions of Hiruzen.
After having watched the video: I agree that in terms of narrative Obito should scale to KCM or KCM2 Naruto, given that Minato thought Naruto would need to control Kurama's chakra to combat him, and he regarded him as a greater threat than Pain. Therefore it would also be safe to assume he should be above SM Naruto. The problem is that there is a massive difference between Orange Mask and White Mask Obito when it comes to feats. Fuu and Torune were able to counter his Kamui, and I don't think Obito would let himself be infected with those nano insects even though he could just detach his arm and get a new one later. And Konan was able to tag him for a bit even after he started to take the fight seriously. Compare that to him in the War Arc bouting with Guy, Kakashi and KCM1 Naruto at the same time until they figured out a counter to Kamui. And then we see with Madara how significant the amp from a Rinnegan is. So if we want to be consistent, Orange Mask is above Pain Arc SM Naruto, but would be washed by KCM1 Naruto. Minato thought Naruto needed Kurama's chakra to beat the masked man, but that doesn't have to mean they would be equal. And then White Mask/Rinnegan Obito is above KCM1 and either relative to or slightly below KCM2 Naruto. And regarding the scaling of prime HIruzen, you guys mentioned his speed feat against Juubito at the beginning of the video, but what are the implications of this for the actual match-ups? I am pretty sure Pain wouldn't be able to react like Hiruzen did when the other paths were being stomped by SM Naruto and even Tendou was having trouble in their Taijutsu exchanges, only getting the advantage when Naruto ran out of SM. If Naruto had infinite SM, he would have won at that point. Taking this into account, it does seem that Hiruzen would be able to blitz Pain, or at the very least would be superior to him in terms of speed. In terms of AP though, I agree that he doesn't have anything a Shinra Tensei wouldn't repel, as I originally said, so he would need to exploit the 5 seconds cooldown. But your databook quote is wrong in saying that the Shinra Tensei repels everything. 6 Tails Naruto was able to resist it with brute force by sticking his tails in the ground.
*in the anime he arrives after Hiruzen in the manga they all arrive after at the same time* When he saves Naruto Hiruzen is off screen so we have no idea at what point he moved compared to Tobirama so it’s not usable
@@sahildubey3250A person could argue that he would escape the reaper, but it may remove the section of his body it controls when he transitions between dimensions. Or worse, the reaper is linked to him and follows where it continues to steal his soul.
@@noahblevins9569 not really , if that were true a reaper death seal from someone could kill anyone on earth from literally anywhere . The reaper has to be at a location and so does the target . Obito’s not actually “there” , he’s in the kamui , he’s not in front of the reaper either spiritually or physically , so you can’t really make the claim it would work
Even if you don't give Saru all the jutsu he clearly is a Jutsu master and knows all nature manipulation. I would argue he knows any non yin yang KKG jutsu in the village. Which means he has those in battle. Having said that I view Hiruzen in the Hanzo tier in his Prime or above. Since he was scaled above the 5 kage and Sannin. Hanzo is above the Sannin at minimum (Base). Now maybe a video/view could be "Do Sannin clear the other 4 Kage in a 3 v 4". I think its like this Hiruzen=>Hanzo=>Kage> Sannin (all 3 in base) I think Hanzo is above the other Kage personally. Who honestly probably is slept on. Which regardless Hiruzen being above him with lore also included would make sense.
Hot take:Even tho the chunin exam edo tensei's were weaker they weren't scrubs, hiruzen as an old man had enough stamina to fight two reanimated hokage and use the reaper death seal three times before finally dying. Not to mention how he didn't bleed out while standing there with orochimaru for five episodes. Like think about it, orochimaru was already feeling uneasy about it because he didn't have kimminaro, and with how many snakes he can summon or at least his variety of jutsu to use in a fight is crazy and out of all of them he chose to reanimate the hokage like that's the big guns. Not to mention the huge mental nerf hiruzen had during the fight and also the fact that hiruzen didn't want to kill orochimaru. People don't give hiruzen enough credit plus I don't think people realize how strong that orochimaru is seriously.
Really enjoyed the video first and foremost and appreciate the effort put into making it. Thank you for a good watch/listen. That said, and these are STRICTLY my OPINION, I honestly felt like the ideological standpoint was at times a little too into 'scaling' vs looking at each unique component. I personally feel thats more of a DBZ measuring tool than say Naruto where abilities are vast and knowledge of abilities or situations can completely change the course of battle. A few examples that came to mind were the comparisons to hebi Sasuke. Hiruzen (prime-ish) may be a stronger OVERALL fighter than Sasuke with more experience and versatility, but may not have the same level of speed and definitely wont have the perception capabilities. I.e Deidara. Hiruzen likely beats deidara in a physical component quite well as well as experience and emotional control but Sasuke had a massive advantage in the sharingan to figure out the bombs weakness as well as non visible locations. Hiruzen also gets folded easily if Deidara gets off the C4 as he would have no idea about its threat level. There is a heavy win con there. Against Sasori Chiyo had 2 massive advantages. She's also a puppet user so is very familiar with the style and she knows Sasori quite well. The key part is that Chiyo knew something was seriously wrong with Sasori the second she saw his 'face'. Hiruzen would not have that advantage and could get hit with a sneak attack when he thinks hes actually won not realizing Sasori isnt a conventional opponent. The poison would take Hiruzen down if afflicted. Itachi, even without Susanoo he packs Hiruzen up quite handily. Brutal match up. Pain. Jiraiya had the unique positioning to figure out that the pains were not "alive". ONLY Jiraiya couldve figured that out. With knowledge, assistance, prep and the deva path starting on a hard cooldown Naruto still lost until Kurama bailed him out. Even if Hiruzen hit the reaper death seal and it somehow stretched to Nagato, hes not going to outlast or be able to seal all of Nagatos massive chakra pool. Just my thoughts. I did really enjoy the video. Sorry for the long post!
I feel like the strongest gokage statement should be pretty much his reputation from his actual period of being a Hokage and fighting (instead of Naruto's time in which he's just filling in Minato's hokage period) Which is actually also more impressive because it means he was stronger than 2nd Tsuchikage, Mizukage, the 3rd Kazekage snd the 3rd Raikage (which most are more impressive than Naruto's gokage) I think Old Hiruzen hasn't lost that much strenght but chskra reserves and stamina
@@ThunderGodTG I understand, but I'm still kind of disappointed if I'm going to be entirely honest. She's my favorite member of the Akatsuki and I feel too many write her off due to her fight with Jiraiya sense you need a specific type of fighting style to deal with her. Not that I'm under ANY illusion that she wins this, because she doesn't baring her paper ocean trick, but it's SO unlikely she can pull it off. Not to say that this isn't a well put together and researched video, since it cleary is, I'm just hoping for better for next time.
I def agree a lot of people write her off. In all my other akatsuki vids I think you’ll find a lot of interesting stuff about her but, yeah apologies for that
@@ThunderGodTG Greatly appreciate your response. I'll be sure to check them all out. I've seen most, but not all of them due to a lack of time. Keep up the good work, I've seen enough of your content to know you've got what it takes to reach that Clyde/Seth/Six level.
For itachi vs the 3rd the biggest thing to understand. Is that the 3rd more than likely has all knowledge on itachi being the hokage. Also take into account who his master is. The uchia killer himself so just something to think about
59:45 You could easily argue he was devoting more attention to the entier anbu and kakashi they are obviously the bigger threat . He was fighting the entire village by himself konohamru was just not that important and just got a lucky hit( y would he expect a twelve year old to pull out shadow clones and the rasengan)
This shit of using a databook statement on Hiruzen’s firestyle is actually getting on my nerves, are we going to say it’s better than Madara’s as well? Wheres the limit?
Question about the puppets, how durable are they cause I think it's fair to say Sakura is stronger than hiruzen and her breaking the puppets is not the same as hiruzen
You know these guys did their research when they started wrinkle scaling LMFAO.
This is serious business out here LMAO
All I’m saying is the 220 and 580 flashbacks are consistent
😂
@ThunderGodTG You should do a video of how strong obito could be, if he kept both his eyes rather than give it to Kakaahi when he was crushed. He still gets captured by Madara. That's till applies.
@@dillianwhyte443The Show MOST likely ends at Naruto’s Birth.
Dual MS Obito’s Kamui was fast enough to COUNTER SoSP Juubidara’s Truth Seeking Orbs 😂.
Minato is the ONLY person able to counter Kamui. With him gone, it’s a WRAP for the Shippuden Verse.
Pain, Itachi (YES), and the rest are getting WASHED.
I feel like people downplay having the upper hand against peak condition orochimaru plus those two edo tensei, crazy
Not many characters can do that, so prime Hiruzen has to be dangerous
I'd definitely like to see a prime Hiruzen series that showed him to be more competent than the filler episodes did. Hanzo, Sannin, various legendary ninja since then....and yet, he was the only other God of Shinobi besides Hashirama?
That definitely means he had to have done something amazing to not just earn that title but keep it for decades
Hiruzen content, YES!
Hiruzen content? This is actually awesome
Hiruzen could still use Lightning Style to counter-act Kisame's Water Style....and I'm pretty sure Enma as the Adamantine Staff is a physically stronger/tougher material than Samehada so it's possible it could literally just break Samehada in half or damage it extremely so
Tis True
Samehada isn’t breaking my friend if Killer Bee couldn’t
I dont see Samehada breaking but I do think the Adamantium staff is stronger.
Or he could fill the mud with oil or mud then burn it
Prime Hiruzen is a thing of wet dreams
Hiruzen was able to not only contest with a near prime Orochimaru, but also imperfect Edo clones of Hashirama and Tobirama. He was doing all of that while he was OLD! Imagine him in his actual prime! Even his Edo form doesn’t truly show what he’s capable of since he’s still in his old form. I’m sure if his Edo was younger, he would be EVEN MORE impressive then what was shown in the War Arc against Juubito and Madara.
Also, a lot of people seem to agree that even the “perfected” Edo Tensei versions of everyone aren’t nearly as strong as the original/alive versions. This is shown through Madara, as when he becomes a real boy again, he becomes significantly stronger (Even without eyes!). That is why Madara leaves the Edo Tensei state and chooses to come back to life fully.
The same thing could probably be said about the other Hokages, such as alive Minato > Edo Minato. The only real advantage that the Edo state gives is infinite stamina, chakra regen, and body regeneration. That just further proves that the Edo Hiruzen during the War Arc wouldn’t be an accurate representation of what Hiruzen can do, especially not for his prime! Sadly that’s all we can go off of though 😅
Saying that the gedo statue is OVER the five Kage is an elaborate stretch! The 5 Kage unlike the hiruzen don’t have unlimited chakra like edo hiruzen, and they never were using amps like Naruto’s chakra , they came from dying got restored by tsunade who by the way heals and replenishes chakra using HER OWN CHAKRA! At full power the five Kage would vaporize tht statue as it’s not of the level or size of the 25 susanoo clones nor is it big enough to tank the combo attack a fatigued 5 Kage used to destroy the 25 clones and half of edo Madara. And “Sannin” level is the level those 3 were on in the rain village when they were young! ALL 3 Sannin passed hiruzen in power!!
Over might have been poor wordplay we were just saying it was strong enough to just completely stone wall so version of the 5 Kage with some amount of chakra reserves, of course at FP it’d be different.
The three Sannin did not surpass prime Hiruzen, in my opinion. They don’t have the feats to support that.
@@nocturne311 what?! In what world?! Please explain in excruciating detail
@@nocturne311Nah, War Arc Orochimaru with the Edo Tensei does surpass Hiruzen
@@nocturne311 tsunade surpassed hiruzen. Jiraiya surpassed hiruzen , orochimaru surpassed hiruzen esp in their upper forms
Poor Konan :(
I mean Konan gets slapped so
Most in-depth Hiruzen video I've found, loved it!
We deserve a prime Hiruzen One Shot.
Here is the thing with dedira vs sasuke… sasuke was never trying to kill him so dedira was never in any real danger until he gave up that info. Sasuke was confident he could beat him and get info first… so hiruzen definitely wouldn’t struggle nor would he hesitate to kill… he only hesitated to orochimaru cause he was his student and he still had feelings for him despite his evil deeds
My man knows shuriken clay tile jutsu. He knows every jutsu bro. If that's not proof idk what is
Honestly im very happy everytime I see a new vid. My man TG, i dunno why but you bring out positivity out of everyone that comes to your channel and you yourself have the energy for me always feel excited for every single vid. You came a long way since I started like couple years ago, I love how in depth you get with every explanation and even adress things people might have issues with in advance. Thank you TG, you are my favourite powerscaler on this platform :)
I appreciate that a ton 🙏🏻🔥 humbling af to hear for real ✊🏻
Yo! I can’t wait to watch this! Hirozen is my favorite Hokage! And TG is my favorite Naruto UA-camr! I’m very happy right now!
And Virtue is here!
My Man!
W
Hurizen is cool but let’s not get crazy 😂
You think next we can get The Akatsuki versus the Akatsuki I think that’s the clear next step
LMAOOOOOO
Sasuke was also trying to question/capture Deidara for info on Itachi the whole fight. He could've used Kirin to just kill him otherwise (granted it'd prob be a weaker version without the heat from Itachi's Amaterasu)
I’m soooo glad you made this video he really needs a light novel or mini ep. (I’m about to type a paragraph)
(Head canon)
I personally think full power Hiruzen fights kinda like a pseudo 6 paths > He summons prob max 4 other clones but these clones are CRACKED by og Naruto standards so these. Clones will be really smart and prob a little more durable then most other clones. Then he is also summoning Enma. Now we take into account the little we see of what Hiruzen can do with the clones in the war arc. ( using the 4 elements at once reaper etc.) So my head canon is that Hiruzen because he can use all known justu in Konoha could use shadow style - partial expansion justu - mind transfer justu, etc. BUT just that combo alone is insane with his clones imagine what he can do with those justu in COMBINATION. Then I also believe that Hiruzen like Danzo (because they grew up in same time) he probably would have and use really strong summons (other than Enma) in conjunction with his other justu. & I have a sneaking suspicion there is a small chance hiruzen could also use some justu that require 2 release like storm release etc. ones that aren’t Kekei Genkai
(Ooooo just finished the video while typing hoping for that Hiruzen light novel, We can’t accurately give hiruzen every justu in the leaf without evidence )
Only real 'contention' I have is Hiruzen saying to Oro it wont be as easy as it was with Rasa. Like regardless if its true or not, he would just say that anyways, as a ninja, lol.
Like he isnt just gonna give roll over and die, like hes old but he isnt just gonna be like "alright, ya got me!" And keel over 😂 especially with his conviction as a ninja.
Its the same as Naruto/Sasuke vs Ishiki in that regard. They know they cant really win, but they'll try anyways, even with their lives on the line, to protect the village/world.
(+Hiruzen doesnt know about Kimimaro even if he DOES know about Rasa's true strength, lol)
I mean to be fair WE know it's true, it sounds cool, and authors intent, but the point is HIRUZEN doesn't know that 😂
In the anime, Hiruzen managed to push the FULL Nine-Tailed Beast back several miles with his Enma Summoning/staff. The Nine-Tails wasn’t split yet! And as they mentioned in the video, Hiruzen had to be strong enough to stand his ground and withstand the opposing force needed to push back Kurama. So it’s not just Enma carrying him in accomplishing this feat, but also his own strength.
Deidara stomps, with no arms and a kunai in his mouth he successfully evaded Guy Lee Neji TenTen Kakashi and Naruto, and would’ve killed them all if it wasn’t for Kakashi kamui , he’s also known to utilize clay clones so Hiruzen is not blitzing him,
8k views in the first 12 hours it’s crazy man. I love how much your channel has grown.
It has been a TRIP! Super grateful to have come this far
Honestly, Hiruzen and his clones could just use the elements that beat the elenents Kakuzu's hearts are firing at him, rather than using the same ones. Never understood why he didn't do this in the Guruguru fight..
Because winning elemental combos tend to explode, and he was try to save the Shinobi Alliance
Man Hiruzen is about to skibidi the Akatsuki so hard that they will be caseoh, fanum taxed, rizzed and ultimate gyatt
I lost a bet
I’m sorry bro
Were you in Ohio? If not I'm gonna call cap ong ong
Pein clap, others get clapped
The Sasori downplay is crazy. Hiruzen did not know Orochimaru needed a dying Kimimaro to easily defeat Raza and had Kimimaro been their Hiruzen would have been killed just as easy and without dealing any major damage to Orochimaru. Hell he barely took Orochimarus arms in the 1v1. The third Kazekage was much stronger than Raza and was killed by Sasori himself. Granny Chiyo fought with Hanzo many times even developing a cure for his poison, the same man who fodderized the Sanin. This puts Chiyo above Sanin level in speed and strength even in her old age as she exceeded the young sanin enough to consistently battle against Hanzo enough to develop a cure. Sasori is stronger faster and more skilled than chiyo and Sakura only survived due to Chiyo guiding her, the antidotes, and her monster strength (that only her Tsunade and Hashirama possess the chakra control to pull off) allowed her to destroy the puppets in one touch. And even after all of that Sasori still won (he gave up). Sasori has multiple Uchiha puppets with 3 tome, inferring he has killed enemies faster and with greater reaction time than him. Also Sakura only destroyed the third Kazekage puppet after baiting an attack by playing dead (the antidote made this possible). And when it comes to a fight against Sasori we are asking if the oppenent can clear the Third Kazekage, 100 puppets, Sasori's puppet boddy himself, and also not fall victim to the late fight surprise attack that a field littered with broken puppets provides Sasori. Can the oppenent get through all of that without being cut or inhaling poison gas ONCE. Hiruzen cannot beat Sasori
Hanzo scales above a weaker Sannin Jiraya thinks Base is a High Diff fight against a Hanzo level opponent with SM putting him a tier above. You actually can never show that Chiyo scales to Hanzo in raw stats you can argue she was a medic on the battlefield since that’s her most notable attribute and cited the most in the Databooks, which goes in line with her finding cures.
The Chiyo/Hanzo meta is so unbelievably bad and has so many holes in it. The Third Kazekage is just “stronger” we don’t know by how much and we know it was a high diff unknown fight. He also only scales above War Arc Gaara that fought Rasa and that’s it b/c Gaara gets stated stronger so you can’t link the Third to either of them anymore.
Chiyo notes literally towards the end of the Sasori fight Sakura doesn’t need her anymore idk what to tell you brother.
@ThunderGodTG Chiyo out of her own mouth as an edo tensei says she fought Hanzo multiple times, and concted an antidote, she even detailed how long it takes for the Salamander to produce poison, this is something that needs to be observed in combat. This infers that she was comparable to prime Hanzo as she did not get killed, stomped or spared by him. Even in old age she would still be relative to her prime, meaning Sasori was throwing at least Sannin speed attacks which scales to Hiruzen who got beaten by Orochimaru in a weakened body. Yall saying Sasori is too slow is utter bs. Garra only proved himself as powerful as an Edo Raza or alive Raza, not stronger than the third Kazekage, and while it is an off screen fight for Sasori , it still happened. And once again Sasori tagged both Chiyo and Sakura with posion well before that point and only lost his strongest puppet due to the antidote allowing Sakura's surprise attack. If they did not have the antidote they die before the third kazekage puppet is even destroyed. Also she only dodged Iron sand world order because Chiyo was controlling her and enhancing her movements. Also Sakura was able to hang late into the fight due to the antidote and her monster strength technique, allowing her to quickly get rid of Sasori's puppets, never allowing them to truly swarm her atyempt to launch a counter aack as they are filled with weapons. Hiruzen would have to rely on Enma in staff form to one shot the puppets unless he tried spamming big elemental jutsu which would be countered by the iron sand mostly. Hiruzen doesn't have the defense nor the fire power to directly counter Iron Sand World Order. If he somehow breaks the third Kazekage he has to break 100 puppets plus Sasori's body and deduce he has core before being scratched by a Sasori who can also switch his core out of other puppet bodies ruined or not, leaving Hiruzen open to a surprise attack if he even got that far. It's a bad match up for Hiruzen.
Ngl bro this too big a response we can just agree to disagree LMAO catch me in one of my live streams and we can discuss
Wdym bro, he literally mentioned everything and you just ignored him cuz he covered everything you didnt in the video @@ThunderGodTG
For anyone wondering for Konan please check out the last 10 Seconds, we actually forgot her during the whole process and I was actually planning on just recording that part separately but, I just didn't delay the video, APOLOGIES!
You forgot Konan. Good video though.
My Man is back! Great content dude! Glad I subbed.
He’s got plenty more heat coming!
What game is that? @ 2:16
Hiruzen may not be the best Hokage, but he was one of the strongest.
If being the 4th strongest of the 7 than I guess
@@dylanb1812Naruto, Hashirama, Minato, Hiruzen, Tobirama, Kakashi, Tsunade … and for fun Shikimaru.
@@MrBrianpdj I’m not really counting shikimaru tbh dude is pity hokage and is honestly a jonin in power.
@@MrBrianpdj hokage Kakashi is unironically second strongest hokage due to his "orders of magnitude" stronger statement. That's at the bare minimum 100x chakra increase and it was also stated he's stronger than what he was when fighting Obito and Madara. So for him to be stronger without having kamui spam in the war he had to grew to an insane degree - he literally blitzed kunoichi that perception blitzed 4th raikage who had years of training. Boruto powercliffing at its finest
@@metroplextitan8816There’s no way in hell Kakashi is stronger than Hashirama. I don’t care about statements. He doesn’t have the feats to back that up.
I have to disagree on the hiruzen knowledge translation discussion. It’s clearly intended to be a parallel and comparison to characters we already know.
Kakashi copied over a 1000 jutsu.
He knows over 1000 illusions alone.
Same thing with orochimaru he knows all jutsu in the leaf, orochimaru wants to learn all jutsu.
These statements and comparisons don’t make sense if he’s just aware of them.
I agree with you. Early in the series, the number of jutsu a person knew was sort of used to scale their power.
The best Jonin had copied 1,000 total, but Hiruzen knew 1,000 illusions alone. That just implies he is leagues above Kakashi.
I mean it's just what the translation says idk what to tell you, he can still know 1000 jutsu and not have mastery of all of the Hidden Lead Jutsu just like Kakashi knows a 1000 and not all of them are from the leaf
The background music in this video goes hard reminds me of playing Tenkaichi back in the day
We be enjoying peak out here 🙏🏻
The GOAT casually dropping Wednesday bangers
Hiruzen my GOAT❤️🔥
If you don't mind some glazing.....
Old Hiruzen:
-While being the 2nd oldest person on earth he was above the Sannin and literally 1v3 Orochimaru (with arms), Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama. If any random shinobi did a single one of those things they would be hailed as incredibly powerful.
-Was still considered the strongest of the 5 Kage which puts 70+yr old Hiruzen above the likes of 4th Raikage who was a near KCM1 level threat
-His Edo feats are actually still applicable to his 70yr old self considered Edo gives you infinite *_re-filling_* chakra not "more chakra" meaning that whatever jutsus or feats Edo Hiruzen managed to pull off in the war he'd be able to pull off in his Alive Old self like his Guru Guru feat (unless those feats have too much to do with endurance or stamina of an edo)........ ......
......... on a side note Old Man Hiruzen's stamina is absolutely cracked considered he went straight hands with 2 of the most dangerous Hokage (even though they were weaker) and then _still_ stood still for God knows how long holding down Orochimaru with a Sword through his chest AND the Reaper Death Seal's Arm plunged through him.
10yr younger Hiruzen:
Fought off the Nine-Tails for a time and _physically_ overpowered it and managed to push it from the centre to the edge of the entire village. The only other person in history to ever physically overpower the Nine-Tails was Hashirama himself, and he used Wood Style to supress it.
Oh shit, this one's poppin off. GET THAT AD REV💯
Can you discuss sage mode Naruto from the Pain arc vs. Old man Hiruzen from the Konoha Crush arc. Also, MS Sasuke vs. the same Hiruzen. I haven't seen those fights done yet.
For the itachi part couldn’t either hiruzen or enma fight itachi if he tries to use genjutsu?
It’s possible but we actually know when Kakashi uses genjutsu on Danzo’s anbu you can genjutsu multiple people at the same time. Itachi also does it in the light novel so he could ironically catch both of them lacking.
Also this huiruzen should be able to out stamina itachi with his sickness
@@ThunderGodTGoh I see I didn’t know they could do multiple at the same time 🫡
Menma vs the Akatsuki. I also think Minato is a lot Stronger than people thought. Anko and Hiruzen both felt like Orochimaru in his prime would have stood no chance against him if he was still alive.
The DBT3 music was a nice touch. RIP Toriyama the goat.
Another banger by the two GOATs. You two are by far my favorite Naruto Scalers rn, so I am always happy to see you two working together.
My GOAT appreciate it 🔥✊🏻
Hiruzen vs tobirama is a very interesting topic but I personally think tobirama is stronger than any version of hiruzen that isn’t prime based on his statements and feats like him being praised by madara his feats against jubito while weaker than his prime because he is edo and there’s more I can say but you get my point
Hidan finna cook omg
Hiruzen was always implied to be the strongest Kage even as an old man if i remember correctly.
Video idea: Taka Sasuke vs HIruzen.
Hiruzen mid diffs Taka Sasuke.
Hiruzen without that much trouble
@@alexeiharp7676 I agree, but I still think it'd make for an interesting video.
@@aurthurpendragon1015 I guess it depends which version too, early taka sasuke gets destroyed but five kage/danzou Sasuke can drag the fight thanks to susano'o
Ifbwe doing duos of the Akatsuki like the Akatsuki is hiruzen stops at kisame and itachi
For a minute, I forgot what video I was watching.
When you got to Hidan I was like “wait… what?”
😂
I could listen to you guys talk about Hiruzen alone for an hour.
Good video , albeit i had some interjections.
The enma being the strongest summon statement being used to argue that he's stronger than ma and pa seems wrong. Generally in the community, we for the most part take data book statements as valid for everything shown up until that point. If not u would be arguing that enma is stronger than kurama (summoned by obito and madara), or the gedo mazo (summoned by nagato and obito). Additionally trying to imply that hiruzen and enma are the strongest summoning team wiuld just be invalid cuz naruto rocked up with a bunch of summons to fight pain, and if u want to be pedantic, the animal path summoned the other 5 paths.
Secondly, the hiruzen being stronger than the other 5 kage is due to his lore by kabuto and unless kabuto has been watching ay or ohnoki fight he'd also be basing that off their lore as well. Additionally, the data book statement that is commonly used to infer that kage most specifically hiruzen as being greater than the other 5 nations literally the next sentence in that statement is "none can compete with his wisdom ". Feels like just strenght might not be what is being covered. Not to mention that the kazekage has a more concrete version of that statement but everyone (and i agree) relegate the statement to only applying to the sand village. Feels like cherry picking.
Ive mentioned b4 how ay is not stronger than b, but the general run down is that b has had superior showings in all their comparative battles, like against minato, base sharingan sasuke, and against each other. Also virthue arguing that ay was holding back against b doesn't mean jack cuz b was in base. So unless u want to argue that the power up ay will get from going v2 from v1 is massively different from what b will get from going base to v2, that argument makes no sense.
Also hiruzen's clones matching gur guru zetsu (ggz) elemental attacks while impressive shouldn't be used to put him above the 5 kage. They were clearly fatigued as we see ay not fighting with his lightning cloak. If they were at full power it wouldn't make any sense why they didn't just use the giant particle style combo they used on madara on ggz. I personally take this "prime" hiruzen as being more comparable to ay, tsunade and ohnoki.
Also u mentioned that hiruzen was more talented that tobirama and he lived longer so the inference is that he should be relative or superior. However, its been shown in naruto that hard work plays a massive role in one's development (eg lee or naruto). Not to say hiruzen doesn't work hard but tobirama in the data books is listed as being one of the people most focused on personal development. U could just infer he worked a lot harder than hiruzen so the comparison btwn the 2 doesn't hold 4 me.
Finally, my major problem, given u guys avoid it for the most part is the problem that a lot of people in the community keep thinking that being greater than or better than something means that ur automatically a blitz tier above or absolutely one shot the previous guy. Hiruzen's fire style being greater than itachi wouldn't mean it automatically disperses and oneshots itachi's but i believe it would overcome it like sasuke's did.
All in all good video.
I agree with most of this although I also have some interjections, the enma point and blitz tier point specifically I pushed a lot on the channel so I’m surprised to actually see it brought up but, it could have just been a lack of clarity on outside on the matter.
Hiruzen vs Tobiramais its own sub topic but, we also know that certain talented Shinobi can just bypass others despite others working hard I.E Sasuke vs Lee being an example. So Tobirama working harder just isn’t necessarily a defeater for me when discussing a much more Prime Version of the character. Heck we even see Boruto be a prime example of that how so much raw talent can trump any amount of hard work, so it’s just way too loose to say imo b/c Tobirama is more dedicated to self improvement he’d be stronger. It’d be also somewhat similar to Guy & Kakashi with Kakashi having periods where he’s lazy/not training compared to Guy who’s training every day and they’re always ~ or Kakashi is just stronger it’s not a 1:1
I also agree with the Guru Guru point and am under the same assumption and go with that same logic in the vid. The 5 Kage are all fatigued yet Hiruzen is just far more impressive than all of them + the fatigued Shinobi Divison he fought. I thought I worded that correctly in the vid and have said it before but, maybe I just didn’t here.
I agree with Kabuto’s lore point however it should be noted Kabuto worked as a spy for every great village so he should actually have a good idea of each of the Kage’s strengths or have some metric to judge off of. Not saying it’s 100% of course as characters do improve or he may not have seen the Kage fight, but in terms of cross village knowledge he is one of the more reputable characters imo.
The strongest summoning team would not be in reference to SM Naruto since that comes after the statement and even then it’s questionable, which I prob should have made a note on. Just my 2 cents on a lot of these points I’ve just said on other vids or just flat out agree with and maybe just didn’t word correctly.
@@ThunderGodTGI probably worded it wrongly, the blitz thing was more of a complaint for the community and not specifically the video. All in all good discussion.
However while it's it's own topic, u have guy and kakashi as an example of hard work overcoming talent. And the difference in talent was never really discerned. Kakashi, minato and itachi are all talented but one is more talented than the other
Oh yeah nah I was just throwing out a few examples I was more so saying that with that one that Guy is extremely talented in Taijutsu and works MUCH harder than Kakashi at least in Part 1 yet it’s usually never putting him leagues ahead. Bad example on my end
The whole talent thing can def be debated more so making a general point that more talented Shinobi one way or another just find ways to shortcut or catch up which is consistent with a the theme of each generation surpassing the last.
For the deidara fight I thought deidara was in front of Tobi and he jumped before Sasuke cut Tobi
always good to see old man hiru get some respect ‼️
Tobirama vs the whole akatsuki would be fire
HIruzen is not in his prime when he is 10 years younger as Oro says "Even if you were just 10 years younger" implying that at bare minimum 10 years younger
We did not say this was his prime this is just a more prime version
@@ThunderGodTGOh got it misread my bad
All G friend
Most underrated hokage + 2 most underrated Naruto UA-camrs 🔥 🔥 🔥
SethTheProgrammer is goated
thats crazy@@smittenwerbenjagermanjense1268
Where can I find their ratings? I am interested to see how underrated they are.
@@smittenwerbenjagermanjense1268 He is a child predator and regardless of whatever you believe in I choose to not get involved in that
if he cant beat orochimaru and he was on the weaker side of the akatsuki theeen
Hi TG. Been loving the Hiruzen respect lately. There's some shorthand ways to do these. Hidan and Kakuzu scale as high as pre-War Kakashi, who does not scale to Hiruzen. Deidara scales as high as Onoki, who does not scale to Hiruzen. Sasori scales as high as Third Kazekage or Granny Chiyo, who both do not scale to Hiruzen. Kisame scales as high as pre-War Guy or V2 Killer Bee, who both do not scale to Hiruzen. Itachi scaling is hard to pin down, but I don't think he scales to Hiruzen. Pain is the fairest match here and should be the main topic, but I lean that Pain and Hiruzen are relative. Obito cheats his way to victory, but I think Hiruzen under these circumstance could pull the win sometimes.
I did just want to say Sasori got a little downplay here. Sasori wasn't fighting Sakura's speed, he's fighting Chiyo's puppet speed and combat wisdom. Chiyo expected to be able to kill Sakumo Hatake in her old age and survived fighting Hanzo several times, so she's no slouch. I don't think Chiyo scales to Hiruzen or anything crazy like that, just giving some credit to Sasori where it's due because it's really hard to give him any most of the time. It is technically possible for Sasori to manage a scratch on Hiruzen and get a win off the one hit kill nature of the poison if Hiruzen is going in with no intel, which is why puppet technique is worth using at all. How often does that actually happen? Probably almost never. Perspective: Orochimaru was able to no diff Sasori, and Orochimaru was scared of the older Hiruzen while having Hashirama and Tobirama in his pocket, and had intended to bring Minato and Kimimaro with him to fight Hiruzen. And you're using a stronger version of Hiruzen for this discussion.
Not much nuance to Kisame, base Kisame gets absolutely clowned but if Kisame survives long enough to get into Shark Form then Hiruzen could potentially lose to Water Prison Shark Dance because that ability is outright ridiculous.
Itachi is difficult, but I think Hiruzen has it the majority of the time. I know you like to ignore the Jiraiya statement, but we don't need to use it for this. Itachi's last living fights were against Yagura, Hebi Sasuke, and Hydra Orochimaru, which can establish the floor. Yagura is below Hiruzen by statement, Hebi Sasuke is below Hiruzen for a lot of reasons, and Hydra Orochimaru is almost unscaleable beyond knowing that it can survive getting chopped up by Susanoo. We could argue either way on Hydra Orochimaru vs Hiruzen, but it's not very valid either way because Orochimaru pretty much unalived himself by deliberately standing still and tanking the Totsuka Blade. Rasenshuriken would have just as easily killed Orochimaru there. KCM1 Naruto and Bee don't get tagged by anything Itachi does during their encounter in the War. Itachi manages to take out the Rinnegan summons while Kabuto is actively focused on fighting KCM1 Naruto and Bee with Nagato. During his encounter with Sage Kabuto directly, he is effectively caught and killed several times over and only able to continue by virtue of being an immortal zombie. This establishes a ceiling of Itachi below KCM1 Naruto, wherever you may put Killer Bee at that point in time, and Sage Kabuto. This then reframes the question to be if you think Hiruzen scales above those characters. Late in the War, Hiruzen is shown fighting alongside Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato and KCM2 Naruto. If you're on the interpretation that A4 is above Killer Bee, then Hiruzen is above Killer Bee just on that. No matter how you slice it up, Hiruzen has an obvious advantage here. All that being said, I still put this fight as moderate difficulty for Hiruzen and Itachi could take the W off him a few times if the fight plays out his way.
Pain is also difficult, but I lean towards Pain on this one just because his bag of tricks is so deep on top of him having really strong countermeasures to most of Hiruzen's techniques even though I think this hypothetical version of Hiruzen might be stronger point for point. I mentioned on stream that I think Hiruzen vs Sage Naruto is a good topic because that's when it can be argued that Naruto has become stronger than Tsunade. When everyone learns Jiraiya's defeat at the hands of Pain, Tsunade says that if Jiraiya couldn't beat him then no one in the village can, which would include herself. Depending on your interpretation of the statements and context surrounding Naruto having surpassed Jiraiya and Minato with his learning of Sage Mode, you can make a solid case that Naruto is stronger than any of the current Kage after his defeat of Pain. Most people argue that Sage Naruto is not as strong as Pain, and that he only won that fight because the deck was so heavily stacked in his favor. There's the apples to oranges of Sage Mode vs KCM as well. Hiruzen has some feats and showings fighting alongside fights of that level, which is why I think Hiruzen vs Pain is equally interesting and could have been its own video.
Obito is pretty much Hiruzen getting blown out unless we think the speed tier is there for him and we think Hiruzen has the battle IQ to set a trap. For clarification, Minato vs Obito was not even remotely close, Minato was so much faster than him that Obito couldn't even touch him while sneaking up on him, and then Obito couldn't react to any attack Minato threw at him. Hiruzen in the War arc is shown reacting and observing to Juubito, who is much faster and stronger than that Obito. This one bugs me because I just don't see Hiruzen actually pulling it off, but based on feats and showings from the War he absolutely has the stats to do it.
As always, love the vids and the lesser discussed topics and characters you cover. Keep up the good work.
Love your analysis and the extra context you provide in your comments. TG and Virhtue forgot to do a Konan section. What's your stance on that? Also, do you think Hiruzen is the strongest in Part One?
@@dualblades7742 Konan is hard to scale. The only thing we know for sure is that she's above Kisame and Sasori, below Jiraiya, and can threaten Obito enough to force Izanagi. You can ABC her above Kakuzu, Hidan and Deidara via Kisame and Sasori. It's reasonable to suggest she's above Orochimaru, Itachi and pre-War Kakashi on implication. It's implied that she's the one who caught the Seven Tails, which is consistent with her being above Deidara and Kisame. This is some old trivia that comes from some interviews with Kishi, but during the Pain Invasion it was intended for Konan to defeat the entire Aburame Clan while Pain defeats Tsunade, but he ended up omitting those fights due to time constraints. That was never made official, of course, but it shows his intent for Konan to be pretty strong and also ties a nice bow on Pain having defeated all three Sannin for the narrative's sake. As far as the specifics of Hiruzen vs Konan, I think Konan wins outright if you give her the 600 billion paper bombs. Without that, I give it to Hiruzen just based on his stats but I would put it as mid to high diff. Fire Style is shown to not be particularly effective on Konan without the hard counter of Oil, which Hiruzen doesn't have. Hiruzen's fire style is the highest in the series though, so maybe it doesn't matter. Engaging Konan in taijutsu is conceptually difficult due to the paper dispersion, but Hiruzen and Enma together could definitely overwhelm her.
Strongest in Part One depends on if you're looking at it in isolation or if you're taking addition context from things that came after and where you draw lines. In isolation, you don't actually see what Minato does or how strong he exactly is, only that Hiruzen admits he could never defeat him. On that implication, you would have to say Minato. If you exclude Minato, then you can only say Jiraiya or Hiruzen due to the Jiraiya > Itachi and Itachi > Orochimaru statements. It's hard to say either way on Jiraiya vs Hiruzen and it comes down to how you value the offer of position of Hokage, but I give it to Jiraiya in Part One isolation but think arguing Hiruzen is just as valid. If you take addition context into account, the answer is Guy with Eight Gates or Minato. If you ignore those, the answer is Hiruzen or Jiraiya again but I would give it to Hiruzen and not really try to argue Jiraiya because War Arc scaling is just too crazy and you Hiruzen's feats all being Edo feats grey the whole thing up.
maybe i missed it but did yall not mention part 2 itachi and susanoo for a reason or just forgot?
It’s a wipe obviously we just went into the more niche stuff people get into with Itachi, I’m pretty sure we mention it but I do think it’s a case of Susano’o wasn’t even necessary
Databook statements have to be taken with a grain of salt since they always seek to hype the characters.
"Kakuzu in his fused form has no blindspots" - Yet this 80 year old man was outsmarted and either blitzed or taken by surprise by pre-Sage training Naruto.
Pain and Obito is gonna give Hiruzen a good fight.
Yo whats this from 1:05:22-1:05:35? Shits fire.
Pretty sure all that was said in the manga/anime was that the 3rd Kazekage was the strongest of the Kazekage as of the Kazekage Rescue arc & that his iron sand was the deadliest weapon in the Sand's history
HIRUZEN MENTIONED 📣📣❗️❗️🗣️🗣️WHAT THE FUCK IS BEING A GOOD HOKAGE
I think one of the saddest things for pain, is you never get to see a full powered deva unleashed with all the other ones with him. Like I think something that's crazy is the moment deva gets his power back against Naruto he like insta no difs Naruto with a wombo combo with the preta path. But imagine if they do that combo and then the one that steals your soul is there and alive too. Your getting your soul sucked out you get your chakra sucked while that's happening. The animal path can like summon the other pain members what's stopping him from like basically teleporting the rest of the pains on top of him and just crazy ganking whoever he's fighting
That’s the thing, SM Naruto never WON against Pain.
Pain FOUGHT the ENTIRE LEAF VILLAGE (Except for Team Guy, and honestly their not making much of a difference) and WINS.
Then CHAOTIC SHINRA TENSEI’S/ NUKES the ENTIRE HIDDEN LEAF 😂.
After all this he fights full power non fatigued SM Naruto with Intel and Boss Toad summons while going for the KILL … yet Pain is going for the CAPTURE 😂.
It’s not even funny how badly PAIN/NAGATO washes EVERYONE that’s NOT Hashirama (and this can go either way (Hashirama>
Hebi Sasuke that fought Deidara ALSO HAD OROCHIMARU ABSORBED. its not the same Sasuke that fought oro
The Oro absorption isn’t that big of a buff imo since Sasuke had never planned to absorb Oro in the first place, so he was already planning to fight Itachi without factoring it in. The White Snake mainly offered some minor regen+stamina along with the Oro style substitution as opposed to some insane power boost.
It’s also never noted as a significant power loss by Jugo after Sasuke loses it & the curse mark so the series just doesn’t treat it like a crazy buff either.
The 5 kage reference was horrible. They got cut in half by Madara and healed. They were at best 5-10% power left. Hiruzen is NOT above them cause of that. In fact Onoki has better feats than Hiruzen EVER just by that Madara fight
I do believe we mention they run out of chakra mid fight and mention they had fought Madara, but the important thing is that they plus the amplified alliance run out of chakra trying to beat up Guru Guru and fatigue themselves. Ofc the Kage aren’t 100% we just don’t know how weakened they were, the point however was that Hiruzen’s shadow clones which are substantially weaker than he is can just replace the Kage with their varying levels of fatigue so it’s just impressive.
Onoki does not in fact have better feats from that Madara fight tho.
@@ThunderGodTG*Right now as we speak I’m still listening to your video so I’m commenting on points along the way that’s more comments and engagement for you so good 😂😂*
*But all jokes aside. Looking at best feats, the strongest persons Hiruzen has EVER fought was an Edo Hashirama & Orochimaru. & Edo Hashirama was NO WHERE CLOSE to his actual strength as it was CONFIRMED in shippuden that Orochimaru’s EDO TENSEI WAS TRASH & they were much closer to 100% in shippuden when he used Hashirama’s cell to strengthen his Edo tensei Jutsu making it better. Kabuto’s was superior before Orochimaru used it in the war. Madara was closer to 100%. & that same Madara stated that the ONLY WAY the Kage were still fighting effectively & not completely defeated was because of Onoki. Edo Madara (shippuden) >>> Edo Hashirama & Tobirama in Hiruzen fight. Let’s be real. Feat over everything*
@@ThunderGodTG*Onoki also stopped tons of Madara clones with Susano’o legs, saving the Raikage’s life and all in the process. & again, there’s no one even CLOSE to Madara’s level that Hiruzen ever even fought EVER! The Hashirama he fought was again SEVERELY weakened & no where close to Shipuuden Edo Madara*
Video Idea: Team 7&8 with captain Yamato and Kakashi find Itachi and kisame before Sasuke does.
What is that musou-like game you have gameplay clips for in the Hidan section?
There's a reason they keep killing off strong characters early in Naruto.
"Expolsive velocity" Dont downplay my boy Deidara. He has excellent jutsu casting speed and his jutsus/birds/bugs travel fast too. There's more elements to speed than just martial arts. And he has good reaction speeds as shown in all of his fights. His arsenal just is that he's not a hand to hand fighter. It's like how we don't call gaara slow because his justsu is fast. The data books even say he is fast.
Exactly deidera being slower on his legs doesn't really matter when he fights in the air anytime he's even remotely serious and not completely fatigued . The velocity thing is just dumb it's part of the Justu therefore it's part of the Justus speed . Imaging making that same argument with biju bombs or anything that expands .
I don’t disagree with you he’s displayed Faster in the Air with very fast explosives especially looking at the Onoki encounter. He’s just weaker close range which is fine.
true true@@ThunderGodTG
You always have great vids and great guests. Stay well brother, we need more uncommon battles
Thank you! 🙏🏻
Wish they showed a monkey sage mode
I actually kinda made a case that Hiruzen in 9 tails attack could be this famous "Prime" Hiruzen.
We know several versions of hiruzen
1. First great war Hiruzen
2. Sannin bell test hiruzen
3. Nine tails attack hiruzen
4. Uchiha Massacre Hiruzen
5. Konoha Crush hiruzen
So, we know that Hiruzen is around 19 years older than the sannin(Part one sannin - 50 and hiruzen is 69)
Which means 13/12 years before he was 56/57. If he is 19 years older than the sanning then during bell test he should be 25. It's actually very young, it's almost the age of minato death and he is not even in his real world physical prime yet.
"Prime" in naruto is different than in real world, we see that ninja that continues to train and learn can still grow stronger until his body will start to give up.
1. Sannin are most likely stronger or the same strenght as in their prime.
2. Onoki is implied to be stronger as an old man
3. Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama seems to be in their forties(Or even later) and they show absoltely no sings of getting weaker due to age.
4. Kakashi gets massively stronger from age 26 to 45? and it seems that he will continue to grow for some time still.
It seems kinda like one piece case, when characters "prime" is last time we see them before their hairs lose color. Hiruzen during 9 tails attack is the last time he is fighting so it makes sense for him to "retire" after this incident(And right after that he gets white hair)
I think that 56 years old should be actually more prime than 24 in naruto world(It's even age when izuna died and madara grows much stronger from this point on and he is only getting older) and only around 3 years older than sannin are in shipuuden and they show absolutely NO SINGS of getting any weaker due to age.
What do you think about this?
Bro might have cracked the code with this one 🤔
@@ThunderGodTG I appreciate it, i'm glad when i can help build new powerscaling meta.
Diedara downplay is crazy
How strong you think Deidara is bro put me on
@@ThunderGodTG deidara
He is able to keep pace with onoki
Even if scales below Sasuke in some areas has amazing hax and AP
His c2 bombs one shot lower tailed beast, C3 can one shot a village ,C4 is great hax (hiruzen can't even know what is happening before he is dead)
If the fight starts from a decent distance Diedara wins 9/10 times
He keeps with Onoki in the air and you can actually argue Onoki is keeping pace with Deidara and not going max speed since in that scene he actually wants to lure diedara away from turtle island, but again this is strictly ariel speed.
Hebi Sasuke tanks the C2 bombs so clearly everything after is just upscaled so it would just apply to Hiruzen as well, but I do agree Ariel advantage Deidara does very well.
I also think Hiruzen > Onoki is pretty supported with Hiruzen also have full knowledge on Onoki’s particle style adding to Kabuto’s statement but, that’s just my 2 cents
Hiruzen appreciation, lets goooo!!
What the hell is "Oro" and "Heavy Sauske"? Did he put on weight?
Oro- Orochimaru, Hebi Sasuke is the version of Sasuke that travels with his team "Hebi"
My take before watching the video:
Old man Hiruzen - I think we can agree he's above the Sannin at least in their base forms. He seems relative to Orochimaru, but definitely above him. It's hard to say how much stronger he is because he was suppressed during most of the fight and caught Orochimaru and the Edo Tensei Hokages with the Shiki Fujin as soon as he got a mental amp from the Will of Fire. He could be around the level of SM Jiraiya or even SM Naruto.
*Vs Pain - Let's highball him and say the latter is the case, I still think he loses to Pain, as even SM Naruto did and he had much more gas than old man Hiruzen. Hiruzen, however, has the experience and would take some paths out. If he has no intel on the Rinnegan abilities, then he loses sooner, and if he has, maybe he can kill the weaker ones, but then would lose to Tendou. Enma could also be very helpful, but he's not tanking a Shinra Tensei without being blown back, and I think the Asura path's missiles and lasers would probably be able to hurt him. Seeing how Tendou negged Gamabunta, Gamahiro and Gamaken with one casual Shinra Tensei, Enma would just take a bit more effort to defeat. However, I can see Enma himself beating down some of the paths. Hiruzen doesn't have the stamina, defenses and chakra reserves to win here. I also assume Shiki Fujin would be useless, although it would be funny if he caught a random path and the Shinigami's hand were able to reach Nagato through the chakra signal (since chakra has a spiritual component).
*Vs Itachi - Hiruzen straight up loses against healthy Itachi. Against sick Itachi though, that would be a hard fight for both, but I think Itachi would still have the edge, specially given the fact he has a bunch of one-shot techniques. Old man Hiruzen in unquantifiably above Orochimaru, and Itachi consistently negs Orochi. When extremely nerfed, exausted, in pain from using the Susano'o, blind and minutes away from death, he no diffs Orochimaru's strongest form. So I give this to Itachi, high diff.
*Vs Deidara - Haha C4 go brrrrr! C0 go boom! But otherwise Deidara probably gets stomped. Deidara had that much trouble with Hebi Sasuke, who is explicitly below prime Orochimaru.
*Vs Konan - She maybe could tire Hiruzen out. Does Hiruzen have oil jutsu to neutralize her papers? He has no relation to the toads, but he knows a lot of jutsu and is Jiraiya's master...
*Vs Kisame - Kisame wins low diff. Hiruzen may be above Orochimaru, but this man is built different.
*Vs Obito - Obito wins mid-low diff.
Prime Hiruzen - He is very hard to scale. Assuming his Edo version is close to his prime, he has some feats against Juubito in terms of reaction time and some feats against Guruguru who was using Yamato to amp his Wood Style. Lorewise he must be below Minato. Maybe also below Tobirama? But he is clearly near their level.
*Vs Pain - I'd say Hiruzen beats Pain to a pulp mid-low diff. Tendou would be the most troublesome, but Hiruzen probably would be able to come up with a strategy to exploit the 5 sec cooldown of Shinra Tensei. Against Chibaku Tensei, he can die but he can also use Enma's staff form to protect him from the rocks (as he did to protect him from Hashirama's Jukai Koutan), and maybe even escape through a reverse summon. But given how stronger and faster he is, he might end up beating Tendou before he has a chance to use the Chibaku Tensei. If Hiruzen is in Naruto's position, Tendou would have to retreat in order to get close enough to Nagato to use the Chibaku Tensei. That worked against a berserk 6 tails Naruto who blindly pursued him, but Hiruzen could and probably would be able to intercept him as he was trying to "escape".
*Vs Itachi - Given the fact he was able to react to Juubito, Hiruzen must be very fast, maybe even faster than healthy Itachi. If he's relative, he can win high diff. He he is faster, mid-low diff depending on how faster he is. He probably can dodge Amaterasu either way. However, I don't think he has the AP to break Itachi's Susano'o. If he's not so much faster as to consistently blitz Itachi, his only win con may be the Shiki Fujin. Otherwise he loses to Uchiha hax. This could be a very interesting fight. Sick Itachi gets stomped though.
*Vs Deidara - Gets blitzed and stomped. His only win con is using C4 as a surprise attack.
*Vs Konan - Blitzed and stomp. Hiruzen is not dying to her, the only question is whether or not he has a jutsu that can counter her.
*Vs Kisame - Lowballing Hiruzen, he can win high diff, but Kisame will win if it becomes a battle of attrition. Taijutsu wouldn't be effective and regular Ninjutsu would get absorbed. Maybe his strongest Fire and Wind Style could harm Kisame. But I doubt Hiruzen has anything in his arsenal that overpowers the Super Shark Bomb. Shiki Fujin is, as always, a viable win con, but isn't that really a draw? If we highball Hiruzen, Kisame would get beaten in his own game of physical prowess and powerful Ninjutsu. The Super Shark Bomb would still be effective though. Hiruzen in this scenario wins mid diff.
*Vs Obito - Orange Mask gets stomped, Hiruzen can probably counter attack even a surprise Kamui attempt. Do we have battle IQ feats for Hiruzen besides knowing he's a wise man? Can he decipher and counter Kamui? He has Shadow Clones, so he could do the same thing Naruto and Kakashi did. Can Obito phase through the shinigami's hand? Now, regarding White Mask Obito... I think he has a high chance of winning if we give him the Edo Jinchuuriki. They would overwhelm Hiruzen, and he has no answer to a Bijudama besides the hypothetical Reverse Summoning. Considering the 1v1, I think Hiruzen has a fair chance. Again, the man reacted to Juubito. If we scale him closer to Tobirama than to, say, KCM Naruto, then Hiruzen takes the win mid-high diff. If he can come up with a counter to Kamui, he most likely wins.
Everyone I didn't mention gets stomped by both versions of Hiruzen.
After having watched the video:
I agree that in terms of narrative Obito should scale to KCM or KCM2 Naruto, given that Minato thought Naruto would need to control Kurama's chakra to combat him, and he regarded him as a greater threat than Pain. Therefore it would also be safe to assume he should be above SM Naruto. The problem is that there is a massive difference between Orange Mask and White Mask Obito when it comes to feats. Fuu and Torune were able to counter his Kamui, and I don't think Obito would let himself be infected with those nano insects even though he could just detach his arm and get a new one later. And Konan was able to tag him for a bit even after he started to take the fight seriously.
Compare that to him in the War Arc bouting with Guy, Kakashi and KCM1 Naruto at the same time until they figured out a counter to Kamui. And then we see with Madara how significant the amp from a Rinnegan is. So if we want to be consistent, Orange Mask is above Pain Arc SM Naruto, but would be washed by KCM1 Naruto. Minato thought Naruto needed Kurama's chakra to beat the masked man, but that doesn't have to mean they would be equal. And then White Mask/Rinnegan Obito is above KCM1 and either relative to or slightly below KCM2 Naruto.
And regarding the scaling of prime HIruzen, you guys mentioned his speed feat against Juubito at the beginning of the video, but what are the implications of this for the actual match-ups? I am pretty sure Pain wouldn't be able to react like Hiruzen did when the other paths were being stomped by SM Naruto and even Tendou was having trouble in their Taijutsu exchanges, only getting the advantage when Naruto ran out of SM. If Naruto had infinite SM, he would have won at that point. Taking this into account, it does seem that Hiruzen would be able to blitz Pain, or at the very least would be superior to him in terms of speed.
In terms of AP though, I agree that he doesn't have anything a Shinra Tensei wouldn't repel, as I originally said, so he would need to exploit the 5 seconds cooldown. But your databook quote is wrong in saying that the Shinra Tensei repels everything. 6 Tails Naruto was able to resist it with brute force by sticking his tails in the ground.
Why are y'all playing DBZ bt3 music on a Naruto video
I just play whatever vibe fits, I don't like playing the same naruto ost's over and over
Hiruzen is faster than Tobirama. He arrives after Minato on pure speed alone and saves Naruto
*in the anime he arrives after Hiruzen in the manga they all arrive after at the same time*
When he saves Naruto Hiruzen is off screen so we have no idea at what point he moved compared to Tobirama so it’s not usable
Hurizen in his super suit and staff/baton in gonna be like a police officer showing these criminals some police brutality
Pretty accurate i like it
Thunder Woof back with the Hiruzen content!!!
Imo hiruzen destroys everyone except orochimaru (obviously), kisame, Itachi, pain and obito.
56:30 - If Itachi can see the Reaper before he's taken by it.... What if ( :D )... he can put the Reaper under Tsukuyomi?
I wonder if the Reaper Death Seal would work against Obito's intangibility?
He’s literally intangible ofc it wouldn’t
@@sahildubey3250Phisically intangible. The Shinigami Is not a physical entity. So it would work
@@desanctisapostata soul exists inside the body only and his body is literally in another dimension when he uses kamui
@@sahildubey3250A person could argue that he would escape the reaper, but it may remove the section of his body it controls when he transitions between dimensions.
Or worse, the reaper is linked to him and follows where it continues to steal his soul.
@@noahblevins9569 not really , if that were true a reaper death seal from someone could kill anyone on earth from literally anywhere . The reaper has to be at a location and so does the target . Obito’s not actually “there” , he’s in the kamui , he’s not in front of the reaper either spiritually or physically , so you can’t really make the claim it would work
Even if you don't give Saru all the jutsu he clearly is a Jutsu master and knows all nature manipulation. I would argue he knows any non yin yang KKG jutsu in the village. Which means he has those in battle. Having said that I view Hiruzen in the Hanzo tier in his Prime or above. Since he was scaled above the 5 kage and Sannin. Hanzo is above the Sannin at minimum (Base). Now maybe a video/view could be "Do Sannin clear the other 4 Kage in a 3 v 4". I think its like this
Hiruzen=>Hanzo=>Kage> Sannin (all 3 in base)
I think Hanzo is above the other Kage personally. Who honestly probably is slept on. Which regardless Hiruzen being above him with lore also included would make sense.
Hot take:Even tho the chunin exam edo tensei's were weaker they weren't scrubs, hiruzen as an old man had enough stamina to fight two reanimated hokage and use the reaper death seal three times before finally dying. Not to mention how he didn't bleed out while standing there with orochimaru for five episodes.
Like think about it, orochimaru was already feeling uneasy about it because he didn't have kimminaro, and with how many snakes he can summon or at least his variety of jutsu to use in a fight is crazy and out of all of them he chose to reanimate the hokage like that's the big guns. Not to mention the huge mental nerf hiruzen had during the fight and also the fact that hiruzen didn't want to kill orochimaru. People don't give hiruzen enough credit plus I don't think people realize how strong that orochimaru is seriously.
Really enjoyed the video first and foremost and appreciate the effort put into making it. Thank you for a good watch/listen.
That said, and these are STRICTLY my OPINION, I honestly felt like the ideological standpoint was at times a little too into 'scaling' vs looking at each unique component. I personally feel thats more of a DBZ measuring tool than say Naruto where abilities are vast and knowledge of abilities or situations can completely change the course of battle.
A few examples that came to mind were the comparisons to hebi Sasuke. Hiruzen (prime-ish) may be a stronger OVERALL fighter than Sasuke with more experience and versatility, but may not have the same level of speed and definitely wont have the perception capabilities.
I.e Deidara. Hiruzen likely beats deidara in a physical component quite well as well as experience and emotional control but Sasuke had a massive advantage in the sharingan to figure out the bombs weakness as well as non visible locations. Hiruzen also gets folded easily if Deidara gets off the C4 as he would have no idea about its threat level. There is a heavy win con there.
Against Sasori Chiyo had 2 massive advantages. She's also a puppet user so is very familiar with the style and she knows Sasori quite well. The key part is that Chiyo knew something was seriously wrong with Sasori the second she saw his 'face'. Hiruzen would not have that advantage and could get hit with a sneak attack when he thinks hes actually won not realizing Sasori isnt a conventional opponent. The poison would take Hiruzen down if afflicted.
Itachi, even without Susanoo he packs Hiruzen up quite handily. Brutal match up.
Pain. Jiraiya had the unique positioning to figure out that the pains were not "alive". ONLY Jiraiya couldve figured that out. With knowledge, assistance, prep and the deva path starting on a hard cooldown Naruto still lost until Kurama bailed him out. Even if Hiruzen hit the reaper death seal and it somehow stretched to Nagato, hes not going to outlast or be able to seal all of Nagatos massive chakra pool.
Just my thoughts. I did really enjoy the video. Sorry for the long post!
OH YEAH LET'S GET IT STARTED
Edit: Should win with everybody below Kisame :V if we talk about Konoha crush Hiruzen, if younger then possibly higher
I feel like the strongest gokage statement should be pretty much his reputation from his actual period of being a Hokage and fighting (instead of Naruto's time in which he's just filling in Minato's hokage period)
Which is actually also more impressive because it means he was stronger than 2nd Tsuchikage, Mizukage, the 3rd Kazekage snd the 3rd Raikage (which most are more impressive than Naruto's gokage)
I think Old Hiruzen hasn't lost that much strenght but chskra reserves and stamina
Revelation 14:12
King James Version
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
What about Konan? You completely skipped her. Regardless of the outcome, I feel its not right to just skip over her.
Go to like the last 10 seconds of the video believe it or not this recording was so long and we were so dialed in she slipped our mind completly
@@ThunderGodTG I understand, but I'm still kind of disappointed if I'm going to be entirely honest. She's my favorite member of the Akatsuki and I feel too many write her off due to her fight with Jiraiya sense you need a specific type of fighting style to deal with her.
Not that I'm under ANY illusion that she wins this, because she doesn't baring her paper ocean trick, but it's SO unlikely she can pull it off.
Not to say that this isn't a well put together and researched video, since it cleary is, I'm just hoping for better for next time.
I def agree a lot of people write her off. In all my other akatsuki vids I think you’ll find a lot of interesting stuff about her but, yeah apologies for that
@@ThunderGodTG Greatly appreciate your response. I'll be sure to check them all out. I've seen most, but not all of them due to a lack of time.
Keep up the good work, I've seen enough of your content to know you've got what it takes to reach that Clyde/Seth/Six level.
Hey! I appreciate thank you so much 🙏🏻
He NEEDS his own one shot so his scaling can be justified
For itachi vs the 3rd the biggest thing to understand. Is that the 3rd more than likely has all knowledge on itachi being the hokage. Also take into account who his master is. The uchia killer himself so just something to think about
in the lair with this one🔥
WHATS goin on guys...love it😂
59:45 You could easily argue he was devoting more attention to the entier anbu and kakashi they are obviously the bigger threat . He was fighting the entire village by himself konohamru was just not that important and just got a lucky hit( y would he expect a twelve year old to pull out shadow clones and the rasengan)
This shit of using a databook statement on Hiruzen’s firestyle is actually getting on my nerves, are we going to say it’s better than Madara’s as well? Wheres the limit?
Konan go 💀
Question about the puppets, how durable are they cause I think it's fair to say Sakura is stronger than hiruzen and her breaking the puppets is not the same as hiruzen
U heard bout the 3rds father pretty bad guy sasuke(3rds dad)pretty bad guy he made donzo look like a church preacher
Personally think yall are overhyping Hiruzen a bit. But good video.