I was raised by working class parents in a diverse church, before we knew what diversity meant. We were taught that all people are created in Gods image. It has blessed our lives and we are thankful that in this confusing time, we all draw from our parents teachings. We three live in different types of communities. Our father was a humble man who simply believed the gospel. He once told me he didn’t believe we were called to make our neighbors enemies, we were called to love them no matter their faith. The gospel message and Jesus’ love for the other is the power. I appreciated that you pointed out our founders wanted to protect the church from politics rather than church and state threatening the church…….
Those of us who profess Christ need to stop dimming our lamps with our ugly political idolatries and instead invite others to behold the beauty and majesty of Christ. I think it's Christians who have turned people off and away. Let's not hide our lamps under a basket ~ let's love people to Jesus! ❤
Right? What other way is there? Jesus didn't split people out by demographic. He invited all who were "burdened and heavy laden." That's all of us at some point in time.
Well, good luck with that. William F. Buckley Jr. was the peacekeeper between the major conservative factions back in the day. With him dead, and the end of the Cold War, the uneasy alliance has shattered. No one wants to be the peacekeeper. Nowadays, conservatives want to be based, redpilled, and make a lot of money, but enough is never enough. Speaking of uneasy alliances, Tucker Carlson's interviews appear to be a construction of an international, Cold War 2.0 alliance, but the ground is even more fragile than it was in Buckley's time.
Two lovely voices! Thinking carefully out loud. We need MUCH more of this! I am a liberal atheist BUT come from VERY Methodist background. The algorithm pushes us but we need to resist! There IS common ground! Thank you both for supplying some!!!
Really appreciated this... Left SBC after investing $59,000 in a seminary degree only to find it completely unmarketable as a female intent on ministry. There are more options to get involved in the smaller, non-denominational churches but I found myself still attracted to the phenomenonal worship of the mega Church. There, however, community proved impossible to attain, and so the less exciting, less programmed neighborhood church that still serves coffee and muffins and does potlucks on special occasions has won my stay.
Great conversation. Appreciate the perspective of Ryan Burge, from the challenges facing mid-sized churches to the social benefits of being in a multi-generational community even if you don’t ascribe to all belief statements. Appreciate Russel’s openness to these perspectives.
I have been raised be weary of all organized religion and never attended church, until I lost my Mom 2 years ago. I felt so alone and sad, so went to the closest church from my home, a small church with about 20 retirees every Sunday, a member of UCC. I go weekly for the people and human connections, fortunate they are mostly not conservatives. Their adult children were raised in the church, but they only show up on big holidays. I am 52, probably the youngest of the regulars, and I have not become a real believer yet. So I join church activities, but I have no desire to take charge of anything. I worry what will happen when our key members (in their 80s) are no longer with us. I agree with Ryan on lots of his opinions.
My wife and I were brought up and grew up in evangelical churches all of our 70 year lives. Our two children at best can be described as non-practicing Christians. We have Catholic friends whose two daughters can best be described as non-practicing Christians. Talking all four of them I found that their disenchantment is not so much about their fundamental faith but more to do with the church. They see churches as being too political with a heavy focus on finance (prosperity gospel, send money tv shows, Christian QVCs, meaningless book sales etc) and maybe more significant an irrelevancy in the preaching as it applies to their way of life and a lack of condemnation of the hypocrisies that pervade formal religious institutions.
The people who have the best experiences in the American church are those who are married, have children, are affluent, are conservative, are Christian (obviously) and are extroverted (church is about evangelizing which requires extroversion.) That seems to be about 25 percent of the population per Ryan Burge. The other 75 percent who are introverts, liberal, single, not Christian, don't have kids, and/or are less affluent are doing other things. Going to brunch, chilling at home, on social media, watching sports, going to parks, the lake, coffee shops, and bookstores, or simply working to make ends meet. Some are involved in volunteer work and Meetup groups. The American church and the surrounding culture are much further apart than they once were. The majority of people don't fit in at church.
I try to have this discussion about declining church attendance with my Christian friends and discuss how the church should pay more attention, but I'm usually met with black stares. They don't see anything wrong. They think "we're here," everything is fine. The problem with current church is that we are blessed with a large and growing number of attendees, so they definitely don't see the problem. Even another friend, who attends a church with a huge attendance drop in the last 30 years doesn't want to address it and certainly no one wants to change. With evangelicals, there's this bunker mentality that seems to say, "If we change, we're compromising, and we can't do that." I blame most of the disillusionment in the faith communities on the pollicization of messages coming out of the church.
It doesn’t t matter if people leave so they can work more, go on more vacations, and have more pets. These people don’t want a church community. Today the exact same share of parents attend church as they did in the late-1950s. The difference now is there are far fewer parents. The decline in church attendance is only as a share of overall population but not share of the people who literally create the future: parents.
"I believe in the teachings of #Christ, but you on the other side of the world do not, I read the #Bible faithfully and see little in #Christendom that those who profess faith pretend to see. The #Christians above all others are seeking after #wealth. Their aim is to be #rich at the expense of their #neighbors. They come among aliens to #exploit them for their own good and #cheat them to do so. Their #prosperity is far more essential to them than the life, liberty, and happiness of others." - Mohandas #Gandhi (perhaps the most #Jesus loving non-Christian in history) 🛐☮❤✝
Good morning from the beautiful SF Bay Area. What a great conversation, Russell, thank you for this fine guest. If you don't mind I'd like to explain a couple of things to you. First, the abortion issue has NEVER been about abortion, it is about birth control and women's autonomy, has nothing to do with "killing babies." Second, when I was growing up in the 50's-60's in an Evangelical family, father, grandfather, uncles all preachers/missionaries, my father was so afraid of us 4 kids going to science classes that he read us the most ridiculous book, Creation not Evolution, sadly still in print. When I took those classes I was delighted at God's incredible creation and how it was formed. (Pro Choice = Pro Life. Pro Choice = Pro Family. Anti Choice = Family.) If young people are told to believe ancient myths instead of facts, if they are not taught to delight in the beauty of the world, if they are told the world is "fallen" and not evolutionary, they will continue to leave and/or lose their faith in true religious teachings. Dinosaurs did not live 5,000 years ago. When young people are faced with the truth they can plainly see they are being taught to be stupid and not enlightened cosmic citizens of a beautiful universe. They will become materialists and not spiritual thinkers. Lastly, I love your theme music and have to chuckle because it would have been seen as the Devil's music when I was growing up with the Beatles. Ain't it grand that times can sometimes change for the better. You might even say it evolves! Blessings.
True, zero religions and zero politicians have ever said a woman should go to jail for an abortion. So both parties agree: no jail. And zero churches have opinion on jail. Few churches dare say (though God's one true Church on earth does) that a woman can be forgiven for an abortion, and we have said it since the 1970s. So no leadership from most churches on this. Bible gives zero leadership on this. Hence need for prophets in our day, who trump the Holy Bible. Where is mercy? Surely, the heavens and smart religion would never pick a fight with only one gender. Yet, right is right and wrong is wrong. And with repeated serious sin, there is excommunication in the Bible. And there is forgiveness for sin. And some punishments are worse than jail. Guilt, remorse, losing the Spirit, and judgement, in next life, all worse. Of course the heavens know if a woman goes to jail, perhaps some men should too. And that happens for some in the next life, yet hell does not last forever.
BK. At a prayer meeting for revival in UK years ago, a prophecy was given/received during the meeting . "I will not revive what I didn't build" That comes from a very well known and respected bible teacher. People are perhaps at last realising that denominations are not of God.
I've made a similar comment before, and will make it here again... when you edit between questions people assume you are editing out content. What are you leaving out and why? Carrie Nieuwhof doesn't.
Thank you for this interview. Very interesting! I have been the Church Clerk for a traditional SBC church for 25 years. When I first started, members mostly joined from an SBC church to ours, and vice versa. I would write their previous church and the clerk would verify their membership, thus they moved their "church letter " and established membership at my church. We had some who joined and quit coming still on our roll, but most were active members. However, in the early 2000s we had members leave and join non-denominational churches. Those churches did not let us know, so the names of THEIR new members stayed on our roll. We have been able to contact some people to verify they no longer desire membership in our church, but we still have MANY names on our roll who are members/attenders of other churches. If our church is any indication, there is no way the SBC has as many members as they reoprt having.
Membership is important only if churches actually practice church discipline. I suspect the SBC practice has a lot more to do with “numbering” (something David was warned is sinful).
The Southern Baptist Convention went liberal too. This partially explains its collapse- just like the mainline Protestant denominations which have their color flags and have collapsed.
Thou shalt not #kill. (Exodus 20:13) / Thou shalt not [be complicit in #genocide]. More than 14,500 #children killed in #Gaza. The latest #death toll stands at 35,287 #Palestinians and 1,139 people killed in #Israel since October 7. (2024.05.07) 🛐✝
@@TheParadoxDestroyer "I believe in the teachings of #Christ, but you on the other side of the world do not, I read the #Bible faithfully and see little in #Christendom that those who profess faith pretend to see. The #Christians above all others are seeking after #wealth. Their aim is to be #rich at the expense of their #neighbors. They come among aliens to #exploit them for their own good and #cheat them to do so. Their #prosperity is far more essential to them than the life, liberty, and happiness of others." - Mohandas #Gandhi (perhaps the most #Jesus loving non-Christian in history)
@2serve4Christ I'm sorry. Your response makes absolutely no sense. You believe it is the profit motive of Christians causing the death and destruction in Gaza???? Show some proof rather than bleating out misplaced petty pieties. Realize that the Israelis are acting out their religious beliefs, Yahweh providing just retribution against the enemies of God's Chosen people.
@@TheParadoxDestroyer If you are more concerned with Hamas' hate of the Israel government then the Israel government murdering of tens of thousands of innocent lives, you may want to consider if you "believe in the teachings of Christ'. “We don't believe something by merely saying we believe it, or even when we believe that we believe it. We believe something when we act as if it were true.” - Dallas Willard
@@2serve4Christ you know, deflecting from my questions and gaslighting me doesn't work. Move on. I'm not intimidated and don't care what you think. Enjoy your weekend.
Russell I just think you're amazing! And I've read a couple of Ryan's books too; love him! One thing I kinda surprised to hear you say Russell, was at the end when you weren't super keen on atheists coming to church. I'm curious, do not not think they might find Jesus there? I mean... Isn't that kinda why most churches do the whole altar call thing? I get your point, but i was gonna literally explode if I comment. Spontaneously combust. Now I shall go on about my day. Blessings to you all 💛
I have listened for 13 minutes - Not being familiar with either of you. I question if you are eve true believers I. Jesus. Have you read the Bible? The church is not the building or the denomination - maybe you should spend some time on the book of Acts. People are looking for truth. I can’t listen any longer to your disdain for church in general and believing Christians. You are the problem.
Huh? Russell Moore is the Editor-in-Chief of Christianity Today and Dr. Burge is not only a political scientist, but has been the pastor of First Baptist Church in Mt. Vernon, IL. Just because you don't like what the data says, doesn't mean those who are analyzing the data have disdain for what you believe.
@raydziesinski7165 haha! Got it! Yeah I went back and listened to the interview at 13 minutes and was like, what the heck are they offended by? Haha! We may never know why Susan was offended 😂
How does one qualify to judge someone else's salvation? And after listening to them speak for 13 minutes?Also, why would you want to? Seems like a responsibility I wouldn't want to be saddled with. You must be exhausted Susan.
Thank you Russell and Ryan. Good conversation. So much here to think about and chew on. I think the next 20 years will see much change for the Christian church, and a lot of sifting and cleansing. What will be left will hopefully be something that reflects Jesus better than what we are seeing right now.
Religion’s challenge is the internet. Before the internet access to information that challenged religious “beliefs” was difficult to find and very few people even attempted to find that information. That information is easily accessible to the world now and religions secrets are now available to anyone with a computer. Religion will likely survive but religious believers will become a minority.
College educated adults are seeing the church as ," white evangelicals, " we here it all the time and every channel. They are smart enough to know the entire Trump mess and mixed with reb and church as the craziness it is. It is heartbreaking.
Christian Nationalism is particularly strong in the SBC and rural America. The SBC was founded on a commitment to slavery. They have never fully grasped that the Church is to be a multi-ethnic body of people saved from every nation. It depends on the pastor’s education.
It's hard to invite people to join the Christian faith if that means they might enter certain church spaces & communities where there is less equality (re: race & gender) and less free will (politically) than in the world. Jesus calls and leads us to follow Him into greater freedom, not less. My hope for the Church is that there is more equality and more respect for God-honoring diversity among us than in secular spaces.
Why couldnt the Republican party find anyone else. I read the craziest article about how Trump might be in house arrest during the Republican convention
@@joerogers540 As a pastor at an affirming Mennonite church - we have options, depending on where you live. Evangelical Lutherans, 3/4 of the Methodists as of this month, Episcopals everywhere, half of the UCC churches. Not sure what your background is but you can preview a church on their website so you don't experience the bait and switch approach of many. Truly affirming churches understand the harm that has been done and make it quite obvious on their websites. You have tremendous courage not walking away from the church. God is so much bigger and is seeking you - I wish you peace and even joy in the journey toward God through a healing community.
@@karen1blaine2 I will be honest with you. I have not been to church in quite some time. I have questioned whether to remain with Christianity or to become an agnostic. When I lost my uncle and grandmother I received no support from so called Christians when I posted on Facebook. It really hurt me.
@@joerogers540 Wow I am so sorry to hear that. Facebook/social media is notoriously fickle with how "community" happens there. I always encourage my people to be in person community as often as possible. But that is hurtful when you expressed deep loss. I hope you can find some flesh and blood people to process your faith together. It is a lifelong journey but worth the work. I hope you can sense your preciousness to God, regardless of the failures of humans.
Aw come on! I am 74 and and loved this discussion! I did NOT feel left out but rather interested in the next generations problems and choices! We may be old but we are not gone!
"The U.K., France, Germany ... are in the low single digits, so 10, 12 14 percent." In the interest of accuracy, 10, 12 14 percent is DOUBLE digits. That said, the issue the American church faces is the integration of science into theology. For the past 500 year+- years, the church has been challenged to integrate science into theology. Just ask Galileo, Darwin, and now psychological experts who have identified people who are INTRINSICALLY homosexual. Such people are never recognized in the Scriptures, just as the universe as we know it today was never recognized, and evolution was never recognized. I personally believe the church will ultimately recognize science in the area of psychology, as it did in the areas of cosmology and biology.
Haven’t people been saying this since at least the 1970s? In the Catholic Church, a very large minority of Catholic priests in the 1970s and 1980s got degrees in psychology/counseling. It didn’t change anything. The other problem psychology has is that it is significantly softer than the hard sciences. Look at the big political differences between the DSM III and the DSM V. Psychology seems to reflect the politics of the time and the politics of those who go into psychology. Look at what it used to be back when the majority of psychologists were men versus now as it’s become majority female. It’s a much more feminized institution. So what I’m saying is, it’s hard for me to understand what a position of a “psychologist“ is going to be given the decade he/she is practicing in, and thus the church will never be able to incorporate such a soft science into doctrine, pastoral care, and church discipline.
@@derek4412 I agree with you that the physical sciences like cosmology and biology are to be distinguished from the metaphysical sciences like philosophy, theology and psychology. But the "hard sciences," as you call them, are subject to just as much revision as the "soft sciences." They reflect the human learning curve. Philosophies and theologies come and go: Platonism/Fathers of the Church, Aristotelianism/Thomas Aquinas, Existentialism/Liberation theology, etc. The point seems to be that the Church grasps various aspects of truth all along its journey through times and cultures. It never has a complete grasp of truth, it just adds to its grasp of truth as it moves through the ages. Everything is as best we can understand it at any given point in time, and should be accompanied by the humility to know that we do not know everything, and maybe never will. We just do what we can to understand. The magisterium of the Church, at least in recent centuries, seems to be the last to understand and incorporate both the hard and soft sciences.
Also, are you sure "a very large minority of Catholic priests in the 1970s and 1980s got degrees in psychology/counseling. It didn’t change anything." ? Today, 70% of Catholics approve of gay marriage and medical aid in dying. 85% approve of birth control. SOMETHING HAS CHANGED!
Just getting started, truth is just getting started, new scripture from Ancient America is more energetic than Bible, and on the offense, and it confirms what Bible says, Christianity is baptism, community and temples, and a prophet to lead us. So there has been only partial Christianity the last 2,000 years. ( and no need to pay clergy , they can work at Wal-mart )
This was very interesting. It makes Protestantism sound like Pop Culture which I guess in a way it is. I go to church for one reason and one reason only and that is to worship the Lord. Not to socialize, not to make business contacts, not because of family tradition, but to worship my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I think Ryan is a wonderful and needed voice. But I think we can build peaceful relationships without losing a strong voice for Jesus and the supernatural. When agnostics attend, they are loved and welcomed but the Holy Spirit will operate secretly to convict and convert. Perhaps we conservatives have forgotten that it is the Spirit that convicts of sin not the persuasiveness of a preacher. ?(i believe in persuasion too.) Many Charismatic churches accomplish drawing nones and treating them as image bearers with a need for healing and conversation not condemnation. This is called, ‘Communitas’ and ‘Healing Charisma’ because all are encouraged to come and then trust God to convict and change. 5 verses of ‘Just As I Am’ will not be used to ‘convict.’
I was raised by working class parents in a diverse church, before we knew what diversity meant. We were taught that all people are created in Gods image. It has blessed our lives and we are thankful that in this confusing time, we all draw from our parents teachings. We three live in different types of communities. Our father was a humble man who simply believed the gospel. He once told me he didn’t believe we were called to make our neighbors enemies, we were called to love them no matter their faith. The gospel message and Jesus’ love for the other is the power. I appreciated that you pointed out our founders wanted to protect the church from politics rather than church and state threatening the church…….
Those of us who profess Christ need to stop dimming our lamps with our ugly political idolatries and instead invite others to behold the beauty and majesty of Christ. I think it's Christians who have turned people off and away. Let's not hide our lamps under a basket ~ let's love people to Jesus! ❤
Right? What other way is there? Jesus didn't split people out by demographic. He invited all who were "burdened and heavy laden." That's all of us at some point in time.
Well, good luck with that. William F. Buckley Jr. was the peacekeeper between the major conservative factions back in the day. With him dead, and the end of the Cold War, the uneasy alliance has shattered. No one wants to be the peacekeeper. Nowadays, conservatives want to be based, redpilled, and make a lot of money, but enough is never enough. Speaking of uneasy alliances, Tucker Carlson's interviews appear to be a construction of an international, Cold War 2.0 alliance, but the ground is even more fragile than it was in Buckley's time.
Two lovely voices! Thinking carefully out loud. We need MUCH more of this! I am a liberal atheist BUT come from VERY Methodist background. The algorithm pushes us but we need to resist! There IS common ground! Thank you both for supplying some!!!
Really appreciated this... Left SBC after investing $59,000 in a seminary degree only to find it completely unmarketable as a female intent on ministry. There are more options to get involved in the smaller, non-denominational churches but I found myself still attracted to the phenomenonal worship of the mega Church. There, however, community proved impossible to attain, and so the less exciting, less programmed neighborhood church that still serves coffee and muffins and does potlucks on special occasions has won my stay.
Christ has a place for you on the mission field. The majority of missionaries are women, and they preach the gospel.
Great conversation. Appreciate the perspective of Ryan Burge, from the challenges facing mid-sized churches to the social benefits of being in a multi-generational community even if you don’t ascribe to all belief statements. Appreciate Russel’s openness to these perspectives.
I have been raised be weary of all organized religion and never attended church, until I lost my Mom 2 years ago. I felt so alone and sad, so went to the closest church from my home, a small church with about 20 retirees every Sunday, a member of UCC. I go weekly for the people and human connections, fortunate they are mostly not conservatives. Their adult children were raised in the church, but they only show up on big holidays. I am 52, probably the youngest of the regulars, and I have not become a real believer yet. So I join church activities, but I have no desire to take charge of anything. I worry what will happen when our key members (in their 80s) are no longer with us. I agree with Ryan on lots of his opinions.
My wife and I were brought up and grew up in evangelical churches all of our 70 year lives. Our two children at best can be described as non-practicing Christians. We have Catholic friends whose two daughters can best be described as non-practicing Christians. Talking all four of them I found that their disenchantment is not so much about their fundamental faith but more to do with the church. They see churches as being too political with a heavy focus on finance (prosperity gospel, send money tv shows, Christian QVCs, meaningless book sales etc) and maybe more significant an irrelevancy in the preaching as it applies to their way of life and a lack of condemnation of the hypocrisies that pervade formal religious institutions.
The Glory of the latter house will be greater than the former house
The people who have the best experiences in the American church are those who are married, have children, are affluent, are conservative, are Christian (obviously) and are extroverted (church is about evangelizing which requires extroversion.) That seems to be about 25 percent of the population per Ryan Burge. The other 75 percent who are introverts, liberal, single, not Christian, don't have kids, and/or are less affluent are doing other things. Going to brunch, chilling at home, on social media, watching sports, going to parks, the lake, coffee shops, and bookstores, or simply working to make ends meet. Some are involved in volunteer work and Meetup groups. The American church and the surrounding culture are much further apart than they once were. The majority of people don't fit in at church.
Well Elevate with Brandon Lake and Chandler more too.. Sing the awesome ," PRAISE! " song.. #1 in billboard almost all year!.. it is great!
I try to have this discussion about declining church attendance with my Christian friends and discuss how the church should pay more attention, but I'm usually met with black stares. They don't see anything wrong. They think "we're here," everything is fine. The problem with current church is that we are blessed with a large and growing number of attendees, so they definitely don't see the problem. Even another friend, who attends a church with a huge attendance drop in the last 30 years doesn't want to address it and certainly no one wants to change.
With evangelicals, there's this bunker mentality that seems to say, "If we change, we're compromising, and we can't do that."
I blame most of the disillusionment in the faith communities on the pollicization of messages coming out of the church.
It doesn’t t matter if people leave so they can work more, go on more vacations, and have more pets. These people don’t want a church community.
Today the exact same share of parents attend church as they did in the late-1950s. The difference now is there are far fewer parents. The decline in church attendance is only as a share of overall population but not share of the people who literally create the future: parents.
"I believe in the teachings of #Christ, but you on the other side of the world do not, I read the #Bible faithfully and see little in #Christendom that those who profess faith pretend to see. The #Christians above all others are seeking after #wealth. Their aim is to be #rich at the expense of their #neighbors. They come among aliens to #exploit them for their own good and #cheat them to do so. Their #prosperity is far more essential to them than the life, liberty, and happiness of others."
- Mohandas #Gandhi (perhaps the most #Jesus loving non-Christian in history)
🛐☮❤✝
I've got 35 *different Christian churches within a 5 mile radius of my house. Why is it Christians can't agree on anything?
Good morning from the beautiful SF Bay Area. What a great conversation, Russell, thank you for this fine guest. If you don't mind I'd like to explain a couple of things to you. First, the abortion issue has NEVER been about abortion, it is about birth control and women's autonomy, has nothing to do with "killing babies." Second, when I was growing up in the 50's-60's in an Evangelical family, father, grandfather, uncles all preachers/missionaries, my father was so afraid of us 4 kids going to science classes that he read us the most ridiculous book, Creation not Evolution, sadly still in print. When I took those classes I was delighted at God's incredible creation and how it was formed. (Pro Choice = Pro Life. Pro Choice = Pro Family. Anti Choice = Family.)
If young people are told to believe ancient myths instead of facts, if they are not taught to delight in the beauty of the world, if they are told the world is "fallen" and not evolutionary, they will continue to leave and/or lose their faith in true religious teachings. Dinosaurs did not live 5,000 years ago. When young people are faced with the truth they can plainly see they are being taught to be stupid and not enlightened cosmic citizens of a beautiful universe. They will become materialists and not spiritual thinkers.
Lastly, I love your theme music and have to chuckle because it would have been seen as the Devil's music when I was growing up with the Beatles. Ain't it grand that times can sometimes change for the better. You might even say it evolves! Blessings.
True, zero religions and zero politicians have ever said a woman should go to jail for an abortion. So both parties agree: no jail. And zero churches have opinion on jail. Few churches dare say (though God's one true Church on earth does) that a woman can be forgiven for an abortion, and we have said it since the 1970s. So no leadership from most churches on this. Bible gives zero leadership on this. Hence need for prophets in our day, who trump the Holy Bible. Where is mercy? Surely, the heavens and smart religion would never pick a fight with only one gender. Yet, right is right and wrong is wrong. And with repeated serious sin, there is excommunication in the Bible. And there is forgiveness for sin. And some punishments are worse than jail. Guilt, remorse, losing the Spirit, and judgement, in next life, all worse. Of course the heavens know if a woman goes to jail, perhaps some men should too. And that happens for some in the next life, yet hell does not last forever.
BK. At a prayer meeting for revival in UK years ago, a prophecy was given/received during the meeting . "I will not revive what I didn't build" That comes from a very well known and respected bible teacher. People are perhaps at last realising that denominations are not of God.
Individualism isn't of God.
I wish I could find a prayer meeting for revival. Or others who would join me as I lead.
In every generation God have His faitful people, I am not worry about it at all.
I've made a similar comment before, and will make it here again... when you edit between questions people assume you are editing out content. What are you leaving out and why? Carrie Nieuwhof doesn't.
It's very unlikely to be removing content. Seems like a blind accusation.
Thank you for this interview. Very interesting! I have been the Church Clerk for a traditional SBC church for 25 years. When I first started, members mostly joined from an SBC church to ours, and vice versa. I would write their previous church and the clerk would verify their membership, thus they moved their "church letter " and established membership at my church. We had some who joined and quit coming still on our roll, but most were active members. However, in the early 2000s we had members leave and join non-denominational churches. Those churches did not let us know, so the names of THEIR new members stayed on our roll. We have been able to contact some people to verify they no longer desire membership in our church, but we still have MANY names on our roll who are members/attenders of other churches. If our church is any indication, there is no way the SBC has as many members as they reoprt having.
Membership is important only if churches actually practice church discipline. I suspect the SBC practice has a lot more to do with “numbering” (something David was warned is sinful).
Thanks, super interesting program.
The way the Church grows is if the Church demonstrate the love of Jesus. Period.
The Southern Baptist Convention went liberal too. This partially explains its collapse- just like the mainline Protestant denominations which have their color flags and have collapsed.
Wrong just wrong. The drifting away has been happening long before the liberalization! Inclusion is better than exclusion!
Liberal? Not where I live.
This guy is good.
What about Catholics?
What about them?
😂
These two are SBC...do they consider Catholics as saved?
Thou shalt not #kill. (Exodus 20:13) / Thou shalt not [be complicit in #genocide].
More than 14,500 #children killed in #Gaza.
The latest #death toll stands at 35,287 #Palestinians and 1,139 people killed in #Israel since October 7. (2024.05.07)
🛐✝
.. and what do you consider the solution given that Hamas will not acknowledge the existence of Israel?
@@TheParadoxDestroyer "I believe in the teachings of #Christ, but you on the other side of the world do not, I read the #Bible faithfully and see little in #Christendom that those who profess faith pretend to see. The #Christians above all others are seeking after #wealth. Their aim is to be #rich at the expense of their #neighbors. They come among aliens to #exploit them for their own good and #cheat them to do so. Their #prosperity is far more essential to them than the life, liberty, and happiness of others."
- Mohandas #Gandhi (perhaps the most #Jesus loving non-Christian in history)
@2serve4Christ I'm sorry. Your response makes absolutely no sense. You believe it is the profit motive of Christians causing the death and destruction in Gaza????
Show some proof rather than bleating out misplaced petty pieties.
Realize that the Israelis are acting out their religious beliefs, Yahweh providing just retribution against the enemies of God's Chosen people.
@@TheParadoxDestroyer If you are more concerned with Hamas' hate of the Israel government then the Israel government murdering of tens of thousands of innocent lives, you may want to consider if you "believe in the teachings of Christ'.
“We don't believe something by merely saying we believe it, or even when we believe that we believe it. We believe something when we act as if it were true.”
- Dallas Willard
@@2serve4Christ you know, deflecting from my questions and gaslighting me doesn't work. Move on. I'm not intimidated and don't care what you think. Enjoy your weekend.
Russell I just think you're amazing! And I've read a couple of Ryan's books too; love him!
One thing I kinda surprised to hear you say Russell, was at the end when you weren't super keen on atheists coming to church. I'm curious, do not not think they might find Jesus there? I mean... Isn't that kinda why most churches do the whole altar call thing?
I get your point, but i was gonna literally explode if I comment. Spontaneously combust. Now I shall go on about my day. Blessings to you all 💛
Glad you did not explode! Have a great day!
I have listened for 13 minutes - Not being familiar with either of you. I question if you are eve true believers I. Jesus. Have you read the Bible? The church is not the building or the denomination - maybe you should spend some time on the book of Acts. People are looking for truth. I can’t listen any longer to your disdain for church in general and believing Christians. You are the problem.
Huh? Russell Moore is the Editor-in-Chief of Christianity Today and Dr. Burge is not only a political scientist, but has been the pastor of First Baptist Church in Mt. Vernon, IL. Just because you don't like what the data says, doesn't mean those who are analyzing the data have disdain for what you believe.
It's seems that the problem might be Susan.
@raydziesinski7165 what was the insult?
@raydziesinski7165 haha! Got it! Yeah I went back and listened to the interview at 13 minutes and was like, what the heck are they offended by? Haha! We may never know why Susan was offended 😂
How does one qualify to judge someone else's salvation? And after listening to them speak for 13 minutes?Also, why would you want to? Seems like a responsibility I wouldn't want to be saddled with. You must be exhausted Susan.
This boy had my attention until his Trump Derangement Syndrome revealed itself towards the end of the interview.
Thank you Russell and Ryan. Good conversation. So much here to think about and chew on. I think the next 20 years will see much change for the Christian church, and a lot of sifting and cleansing. What will be left will hopefully be something that reflects Jesus better than what we are seeing right now.
Religion’s challenge is the internet. Before the internet access to information that challenged religious “beliefs” was difficult to find and very few people even attempted to find that information.
That information is easily accessible to the world now and religions secrets are now available to anyone with a computer. Religion will likely survive but religious believers will become a minority.
College educated adults are seeing the church as ," white evangelicals, " we here it all the time and every channel. They are smart enough to know the entire Trump mess and mixed with reb and church as the craziness it is. It is heartbreaking.
Sorry God is not an American and you can't say the Christians are better in America??????? greetings from Scotland!
preach, brother.
Christian Nationalism is particularly strong in the SBC and rural America. The SBC was founded on a commitment to slavery. They have never fully grasped that the Church is to be a multi-ethnic body of people saved from every nation. It depends on the pastor’s education.
Jewish law doesn’t believe that life begins at conception. The mother’s life is always put first.
And how does God feel about that?
It's hard to invite people to join the Christian faith if that means they might enter certain church spaces & communities where there is less equality (re: race & gender) and less free will (politically) than in the world. Jesus calls and leads us to follow Him into greater freedom, not less. My hope for the Church is that there is more equality and more respect for God-honoring diversity among us than in secular spaces.
Why couldnt the Republican party find anyone else. I read the craziest article about how Trump might be in house arrest during the Republican convention
Ar the same rate left/left.. went way left and confusing. Like not just gay but ?? Pick what u want to be.. we cant find or meet truth in the middle
I question if I should even be in church based on how I view homosexuality and marriage. I don’t care about it anymore.
there are church communities for you.
@@karen1blaine2Any suggestions where?
@@joerogers540 As a pastor at an affirming Mennonite church - we have options, depending on where you live. Evangelical Lutherans, 3/4 of the Methodists as of this month, Episcopals everywhere, half of the UCC churches. Not sure what your background is but you can preview a church on their website so you don't experience the bait and switch approach of many. Truly affirming churches understand the harm that has been done and make it quite obvious on their websites. You have tremendous courage not walking away from the church. God is so much bigger and is seeking you - I wish you peace and even joy in the journey toward God through a healing community.
@@karen1blaine2 I will be honest with you. I have not been to church in quite some time. I have questioned whether to remain with Christianity or to become an agnostic. When I lost my uncle and grandmother I received no support from so called Christians when I posted on Facebook. It really hurt me.
@@joerogers540 Wow I am so sorry to hear that. Facebook/social media is notoriously fickle with how "community" happens there. I always encourage my people to be in person community as often as possible. But that is hurtful when you expressed deep loss. I hope you can find some flesh and blood people to process your faith together. It is a lifelong journey but worth the work. I hope you can sense your preciousness to God, regardless of the failures of humans.
You need to improve your lighting on UA-cam.
Some of these comments are ageist in a very unloving way. I feel devalued as an older person when I listen to this.
Agreed (and I’m not old)!
Aw come on! I am 74 and and loved this discussion! I did NOT feel left out but rather interested in the next generations problems and choices! We may be old but we are not gone!
I didn’t see that
His comments on age were spot on and not unloving
"The U.K., France, Germany ... are in the low single digits, so 10, 12 14 percent." In the interest of accuracy, 10, 12 14 percent is DOUBLE digits.
That said, the issue the American church faces is the integration of science into theology. For the past 500 year+- years, the church has been challenged to integrate science into theology. Just ask Galileo, Darwin, and now psychological experts who have identified people who are INTRINSICALLY homosexual. Such people are never recognized in the Scriptures, just as the universe as we know it today was never recognized, and evolution was never recognized. I personally believe the church will ultimately recognize science in the area of psychology, as it did in the areas of cosmology and biology.
Haven’t people been saying this since at least the 1970s? In the Catholic Church, a very large minority of Catholic priests in the 1970s and 1980s got degrees in psychology/counseling. It didn’t change anything.
The other problem psychology has is that it is significantly softer than the hard sciences. Look at the big political differences between the DSM III and the DSM V. Psychology seems to reflect the politics of the time and the politics of those who go into psychology. Look at what it used to be back when the majority of psychologists were men versus now as it’s become majority female. It’s a much more feminized institution.
So what I’m saying is, it’s hard for me to understand what a position of a “psychologist“ is going to be given the decade he/she is practicing in, and thus the church will never be able to incorporate such a soft science into doctrine, pastoral care, and church discipline.
@@derek4412 I agree with you that the physical sciences like cosmology and biology are to be distinguished from the metaphysical sciences like philosophy, theology and psychology. But the "hard sciences," as you call them, are subject to just as much revision as the "soft sciences." They reflect the human learning curve.
Philosophies and theologies come and go: Platonism/Fathers of the Church, Aristotelianism/Thomas Aquinas, Existentialism/Liberation theology, etc. The point seems to be that the Church grasps various aspects of truth all along its journey through times and cultures. It never has a complete grasp of truth, it just adds to its grasp of truth as it moves through the ages. Everything is as best we can understand it at any given point in time, and should be accompanied by the humility to know that we do not know everything, and maybe never will. We just do what we can to understand. The magisterium of the Church, at least in recent centuries, seems to be the last to understand and incorporate both the hard and soft sciences.
Also, are you sure "a very large minority of Catholic priests in the 1970s and 1980s got degrees in psychology/counseling. It didn’t change anything." ?
Today, 70% of Catholics approve of gay marriage and medical aid in dying. 85% approve of birth control. SOMETHING HAS CHANGED!
Christianity is dying, slowly, but it's happening, thank God. Unfortunately, our species is likely to die out before Christianity does.
Just getting started, truth is just getting started, new scripture from Ancient America is more energetic than Bible, and on the offense, and it confirms what Bible says, Christianity is baptism, community and temples, and a prophet to lead us. So there has been only partial Christianity the last 2,000 years. ( and no need to pay clergy , they can work at Wal-mart )
This was very interesting. It makes Protestantism sound like Pop Culture which I guess in a way it is. I go to church for one reason and one reason only and that is to worship the Lord. Not to socialize, not to make business contacts, not because of family tradition, but to worship my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
That makes you sound quite individualistic. I'm sure that probably wasn't the intention.
Yes, according to Paul there’s a bit more responsibility in being part of the body than just worshipping Jesus.
This was a very good episode. Thank you.
I think Ryan is a wonderful and needed voice. But I think we can build peaceful relationships without losing a strong voice for Jesus and the supernatural. When agnostics attend, they are loved and welcomed but the Holy Spirit will operate secretly to convict and convert. Perhaps we conservatives have forgotten that it is the Spirit that convicts of sin not the persuasiveness of a preacher. ?(i believe in persuasion too.) Many Charismatic churches accomplish drawing nones and treating them as image bearers with a need for healing and conversation not condemnation. This is called, ‘Communitas’ and ‘Healing Charisma’ because all are encouraged to come and then trust God to convict and change. 5 verses of ‘Just As I Am’ will not be used to ‘convict.’
Just talking points. But where is the Holy Spirit led conversation. So sad and such a waste of listeners time.