Maximum Motorsports here. A couple of comments about the full length subframe connector (FLSC) installation. These FLSC are designed for a 1979-2004 Mustang. The Fairmont has a wheelbase which is 4" longer, along with many other small differences. We have supplemental notes to aid in the installation of these FLSC on a Fairmont chassis. Here is a brief overview of these notes. The FLSC needs to be slid rearwards about 1.5" when installed on a Fairmont chassis. This will require trimming the middle side plate gussets. The seat braces will need grinding to accomodate this. The bottom of each U section will need to be deepened. One side of the U section will need to be ground to compensate for the different seat hole mounting location in the Fairmont. It is easy to fill in the slight gap on the opposite side of the U section. The transmission crossmember mounting brackets need to be removed completely from the bottom of the frame rails. This will require a couple of spot welds to be removed from the bottom of each frame rail. Once the FLSC is installed, the edge of the transmission bracket is rewelded to the side of the FLSC. The Fairmont chassis has rear frame rail stubs that extend forward from the torque box towards the rear seat bulkhead. These stubs are not usually welded to the rear seat bulkhead. To get much more rigidity in the chassis, weld plates from both sides of these stubs to the sides of the FLSC as far forward as possible. This will probably require lifting of the carpet in the back seat area. To get better welds on the car you need more heat. Turn up the voltage/current control on your welder to achieve this.
I was definitely disappointed when the door-closing thing didn't go as planned. But I was very happy to hear that the car rides and handles far better than it did before -- I guess that's just something you have to feel, rather than see on a video. *Very* much looking forward to future work on the Fairmont!
It took me over a year to realize that your Fairmont is a 2 door sedan. This thing is essentially just like my Notchback but a whole lot more beige. I can't wait for more videos like these.
This is going to be the most epic youtube build diary ever. Americans with access to Fox Bodys are lucky people. I'd love a Fox Mustang with IRS, what great cars the Fox platform are for modding in the States.
Adding the 4" extra inches on the connectors should definitely help. Think of it as a lever. The extra length will help the connector "carry" the load. As for the doors still not closing. That is a very common problem with these older fox chassis cars. Door hinge pin kit will more than likely solve that problem. A torque box kit should definitely be on your list of upgrades. The sheet metal around the rear suspension mounts is prone to tearing with larger engines and especially now that the chassis flexes less with the connectors. As long as you got good weld penetration, don't worry too much how they look. That will come with practice. Keep up the great work Eric!
Great job Eric. Years ago I installed weld in sub frame connectors in my Mustang GT and I couldn't believe the improvement they made. I agree with you they're a great bang for the buck mod. Looking forward to seeing your future modifications to your Fairmont.
I grew up really disliking the Fairmont, you were right on the target calling it a grocery getter, now I really like your project and I am warming up to the idea that the Fairmont can become a better car. At 1:48, I think that the car is bending the other way: the roof is going up and both ends are going down. When I look at the door stripes when you lift the car at 1:36, the door edge has moved up compared to then the car is on the ground at 1:27. Since your lift point are farther from the ends, you have more overhang and are twisting the unibody. Stitch welding the connector is a good idea, it will help both for the flexing and the twisting. Welding the two plates over the bend on the tube will help with the stiffness. If you want to extend the connector in the front, you could add pieces of square tubing and connect them with the same type of plate. If you are lucky, a welding shop might have some leftover square tubing of the same size. According to wikipedia, the wheelbase of the Fairmont is exactly 5" longer than the Mustang. Extending the frame connector another 5" will help especially since most the weight is in the front and the hydroformed part of the subframe is probably the stiffest part of the car.
Brings back memories. I've installed SFC's on several Mudstains. On my 88 GT I got a little crazy and installed both regular FLSFC's and in-floor SFC's. If you really want to see how flimsy a Foxbody chassis is then just start cutting into the floor, and inside the front subframes and you'd be surprised that the chassis can even support the weight of the vehicle. But yes SFC's are a great mod for a old pre-05 Mustang. Night and day difference that totally transforms and improves upon the chassis composer.
I remember I put frame connectors on my 88 Camaro. When I would turn in my driveway the back of the door would tap the quarter panel. Once I put them on, that problem ended. And driving was just what you mentioned. I could feel the car would take the expansion joints on bridges more solid and quietly..... well worth it.
Your commentary is outstanding. I have very little hands on ability when it comes to car repairs.(you should hear the F bombs even during a tire change). I followed the whole process and the mods and reason behind them.great instructions.
I ran into a similar problem making subframe connectors for my 1990 Integra. I made them from 2x3 120 wall box tubing. The front settled nicely into a pocket on the factory hat channel after I plasma cut the floor pan. The rear was going to be impossible to weld as it sat under the rear passenger seat sheet metal and I had to make relief cuts and bend it open like trunk lid. I ended up using larger box tubing and making a sort of boxed c channel pocket for the rear to slide into. I welded the pocket in first using teh open top to access the rear most parts. Then I slid the rear section of my frame rail into the pocket. I had slotted and drilled holes in the pocket to plug weld the frame rail. When it was all welded in I boxed in the top with some the scraps of tubing I had left. In the end the car is now very rigid. If you jack it up from the front jack point the car goes up on two wheels dukes of hazard style. Hope this helps. Love the videos. Thanks.
The first most important mod on a fox body car ! And the best suspension brand for sure ! Hey Eric , some things that you will do on Fairmont also apply to 94-95 mustangs (they came with the 5.0 on GT and Cobra versions. The last years of the true 5.0) . And all suspension system is the same on 1979-2004 mustangs with little changes (except 01-04 Cobras with rear independent susp.) .
HI Eric. I have learned a lot from you, and grateful i am. But i also know a thing or two myself.And maybe i can help out a little on this. Structually you will get more rigidy if you do weld every three inche because the two metals well simply put become even more as one. But if you only weld at the three or four point per side that you did it would almost be like welding another fox body to the fox body, because all the unwelded areas allow space between the two metal where they will slide bend and flex parallel to each other. You can test this in a simple way. Take two chop sticks and tape at the ends only. Now bend and flex them. Now tape the entire length of the chop stick and try to bend and flex them now youll see the diffirence. Please take in consideration i beleive it would help a lot maybe you be even get the door closed.
I always built my own frame connectors from scratch. those ones you bought don't attach to the rear lower control arm box where the control arm attaches and don't have any cross members for drive shaft loop and rear cross brace. I'd also add an export brace under the hood to support the strut towers.the export brace will make the steering much more responsive. Also I'd box in the rear control arms if you aren't going to use ladder bars and install urethane bushings
I used to work on a fleet of limos, and it was standard practice to open all of the doors before lifting the limo because of body flex. Have you thought about cutting the end plate off of that square box tubing and sliding the next size smaller tubing into it to get that extra 4 inches. It's already Bologna sliced on an angle so the side weld would get you a little bit more rigidity. Chris
If you ask a girl, they'll say the 4 extra inches will make a big difference but probably not with that car. ;) These videos are great too where Eric is more the noobish DIY'er than the pro car guy as you can learn a lot from seeing a project worked from a less experienced point of view like most of us would have that would attempt frame stiffening. It takes a humble person to show the world their less than perfect work. This looks like this project will be an educational journey for all of us instead of just a How-To. My only advice would be to try and use a stiff wire wheel to clean the metal as opposed to the grinder as it would clean with the least amount of metal removal and maybe use weld-through primer instead of paint as no cleanup, durability under weld heat and likely protect from rust equally or better.
Crank up your welder a bit . I use 2"x4" towers that I made 14" tall . I put the car tires right on top of them then bolt and Weil with 28" of working clearance from the floor . I don't like using jack stands that much as they get in the way . As I have put frame con. on many of my and my friends cars I will have to say good job . It was fun to watch you doing this job .
Put a subframe brace on my wife's Saab convertible, my Lord. Before when you'd go over train tracks you were afraid the whole car was going to break in half, now unless you're paying attention the frame only flexes a little (enough to make the dash creak for a second, but basically every Saab I've ever had does that when it's 12 years old). Added benefit is that it goes right under the oil pan, if you run over something it'll hit the subframe brace first hopefully sparing the oil pan. For the 12 pounds of weight it added it's incredible bang for the buck.
Extend the frame connectors the extra 4" and stitch weld them to the body. I bet that'll make a noticeable difference with the doors after you align them a bit.
Weld the torque boxes where the lower control arms attach. Also weld around where the upper control arms attach. Did it to my stang as a preventetive and made a world of diffrence. Good luck!
It isn't recommended you weld the connectors while the car is in the flexed position. Instead of using jack stands, lower the car onto some ramps and support it at the wheels. For safety I'd turn the ramps 90 degrees since you have that nifty lift. Lengthening the connectors would certainly help but with limited contact points, torsional forces can still be transferred through the connectors, so more points of contact would also help. That is, if you're up for cutting and welding a little more steel. Gusseting would be less work and weigh a lot less than fitting a rollcage, and keep the added weight below the center of the wheels. Anyway, just a thought.
I think you're on the right track when you said the doors may be part of the problem. I'd take a closer at them. Those doors have had a long time to adjust to the movement of the car. I'm sure all the other suggestions regarding welding are great, and will help, but I'd start looking at those doors. But really, whether they close or not off the ground isn't saying much but showing something tangible to what is really important. You could spend hours or days trying to shore up the welding and adding length to get the doors to shut only to find it doesn't change the handling of the car enough to justify it. Just my opinion.
Nice work on your Fairmont!!! A friend of mine is thinking about taking a 1957 Belair 4-door sedan from the scrap yard and replacing the doors, hood roof and trunk with carbon fiber replicas while keeping the rest of the body steel and dropping an engine from a Koenigsegg One 1 and make it twin supercharged instead of twin turbo. Last but not least install the One 1 wing on the rear of the Belair and keep the auto adjust feature
You're supposed to load the suspension when you weld in subframe connectors. When you put the car on the lift via pinch welds/frame, you're causing the chassis to flex. Once you have it in the air like this, if you weld the subframes on, you're welding them to an already flexed chassis. You need to do this on a frame rack or alignment rack that way the car is under normal load. I would recommend putting it on a frame rack and having the frame checked/straightened before attempting this as well, that way when you do it, it's 100% stable. Hope this helps.
***** I think you misinterpreted my meaning. Actually what you're suggesting is what I wanted to use, I just didn't get the terminology correct. I realized the disc that I was using was for grinding, not removing paint. Thanks for the suggestions. I can use all the help I can get with my welding.
EricTheCarGuy hi Eric I have built a few trace cars in the past and would not grind the metal making it thinner but use a wire wheel to clean before welding. Also I would stitch weld all the spot welding on the car before adding the frame connectors.This strengthens the car before adding more strength.Loving your project from the UK
More heat, more wire speed. No exposed open gaps. And maybe a bit of weld in the inside portions of the brackets. some horizontal cross bracing on the frame bars. Strut tower braces.
My advice to you is to get as steady and comfortable as possible before welding out of position. Use both hands and make a few dry runs before pulling the trigger. Lighting can also help. But nothing beats practice. I have been welding for half my life and if I don't touch a stinger for a couple of weeks I find myself a little rusty.
One thing I would do after all welding is , treat the inside of the car frame near welds for rust prevention . If not it will rust inside of every place welded. no sense in doing all that and then let it rust away, because it will in there rust after welding if not addressed. There is also weld through primer to help where two pieces will lay together so it will not rust as fast. .
Great video, makes one think. Real quickly, I see about 60% flex, but that was 60% completion. Those small pads, the rail extensions and touch up the welds would achieve 98% or your goals, and I believe that would thrill you. I have often daydreamed about doing this to several 'floppy' handling vehicles, and now it's got my creativity going!!! Again, Good Work!
A kit I saw for my friend's 89 Mustang had a plate that boxed around the entire lower control arm area, as well as an added ladder frame going from the subframe connectors out toward the pinch welds under the rockers. No idea as far as "Before and After" as I never drove it before the mods, but it was a pretty solid car.
Like the idea of a smooth / quiet ride. Gett'n ideas. Maybe the pressing the connectors into position "puckered" the body. What about adding shims while only the suspension is loaded to for even stress/contact along the the tubes length so the connectors only hold the chassis in it's grounded position?...with the doors closed for alignment. Probably wouldn't hurt to fill the connectors with a solid non porous mass such as let's say silicone (flame resistance), to displace air well into the future if water infiltrates due to splashing or high water through stress cracks with a downward facing fill and vent hole at opposite ends. How about an outright thick undercoat for the outer surfaces due to rock chipping, painting first, then rubberize the kit as well as any exposed fasteners under there with whats left in the can.
Everyone like this comment, Eric you forgot to weld in the flat plates that go over the bends in the tubing. This may be a big part of the problem, if not it would help stop the flex! Great video
***** Yeah, I noticed he mentioned it in the video, I just never realized how much flex they actually had considering everyone praises the Fox body mustang as a great choice for a budget track/tuner car. I do love this as an aftermarket option however, it's like making the Mustang *Or other fox bodies for that matter* body on frame (Not really, but you get what I am saying)
Weld through primer is your friend. Good vid, I bet once you weld it all up completely it will be a bit better. I'm sure you can tell it's better already though.
Hey Eric always enjoy watching your video's got your gears turning on this project :) lol... glad to see your keeping your sense of humor ^_^ and looking forward on your next video .
Hi EricTheCarGuy after you have welded in those plates try the doors on the lift see how much better it is as I imagine that will be giving a boat load of flex also might be worth giving a 1 inch weld every 3 inches to add more strength too awesome video though look forward to seeing many more :)
That, and the instructions say to pre-bend the subframe connectors to the frame and not the other way around. jacking the subframe TO the frame before you weld isn't doing this, and what's going to happen is you're welding it with some preloaded spring in the subframe connector. essentially it will now be trying to pull and twist the frame at all times. It might be very minor, but it's something that will be happening. I'm more worried about the welds than warpage. Getting ready to start on this myself.
Great video Eric. Those connectors look great, I think they would benefit from cross bracing if you have the space. That may eliminate the need for a roll cage.
Nice work! I remember some guys in high school (early '90s) that had these on their 5.0 Mustangs...lol. You can really see how the car flexes when you set it down on the jack stands as the weight comes off the lift. I think it will be fine without a roll cage. As you mentioned before that would ruin the sleeper appearance IMO.
i would lengthen the subframe connector with some square tube. also the optional stitch welding will make the car more rigid and may help with the door flex. I am guessing the bushings in door hinges may need to be replaced this will also help with the door sagging.
Imho, you should consider reinforcing the torque boxed first before doing this upgrade. Especially if you're planning to add power from a motor swap. Stock torque boxes flex and warp, yes your subframes help, but eventually when you put in a rollcage that might be something you want to think about. Torque box upgrades are important across the weak unibody fox platform.
At least you have no rust issue in that 79 fairmount . My 94 tempo looks great until you get under it , sadly it sat on Grass before I got ownership of the car, of course it's also a unibody and must go for scrap / parts.
One thing I love about my Crown Vic, body on full frame. It's so stiff even though the springs are pretty mild it's still a relatively stiff ride on rough roads, there's NO flex in the car. I miss my 90 Mustang GT. I always wanted to restomod a Fairmont or LTD II (I think that's what they were).
Just a thought: It looks like the frame connectors mostly add to longitudinal rigidity (yes, there were the under seat brackets, but nothing rigid that connected both frame bars). I'm surprised that there were not any supports to add rigidity to the transverse axis - which would explain why the doors still would not shut correctly. These mods are common on MX5/miatas and they are a full square assembly that seeks to add rigidity to both longitudinal and transversal axis.
Very common item to install on uni-bodies. The Mustang is 4" shorter but also has reinforcements in places your Fairmont doesn't. Same issues that GM F and X -Body owners face. The performance versions had extra braces in the uni-body sections while the base models didn't.
Can't help but mention it sounds like you had the wire speed a touch too slow the whole time you were welding. it could have used another 10 or so on the wire feed speed. It was struggling to keep up with your welding. Other than that I believe the setup and approach you took with the jack stands ect was perfect 🤙🏼
@ericthecarguy they sell reinforcement plates for the front seat studs and they're a great cheap investment as the studs seem to snap out of the floor fairly often as a matter of fact the SSP police mustangs came with the reinforcement I'm talking about. Just my .02 as a fellow fox owner
To extend the frame connectors rearward, you're going to want to weld a plate onto each vertical face of the connector, that extends at least one foot forward on the connector and all the way to the rear where the original connector was intended to connect on the Mustang. You could do this with a larger piece of square tubing that was cut away, or with L channels.
Good video Eric. I have a suggestion, however. Sounds like your electrode/gun lead may have too many loops in it, or your voltage and wire feed speed may be unbalanced. That causes wire feeding to become slightly erratic, and may cause welds to become inadequately penetrated. May I suggest watching a channel called "welding tips and tricks"? Jody has some very informative videos.
Extending those would be a lot of work for only a limited gain if any. I know that the Fox body twists quite a bit and the only real way to fix that is reinforcing the dash mounting bracket or running a tube from the left to right front down post of a roll cage. If you want a "road racing" stiff unibody, you will need a full cage. Yeah a frame on the inside !
I would say Eric wait on the extensions of the frame connectors till you get all your new suspension parts in place then feel how it rides if you think you could do more I would say make your own extension piece and weld them to the new frame connectors. older worn out components may be what's making you feel that not so 100 percent
Just a couple of thoughts: Careful about heating through the floor, may melt or catch the carpet underlayment on fire. Also, after welding, the paint on the top of the tubes is probably gone again. Cool project though.
My thoughts... I would extend up to the point where the suspension connects to the body with a box type extension (the same as the rest) so it can hold the bending (a plate won't do much)
WOW... I wonder how many people drove these things until the seats rusted through the floor? That'd be a rude trip to the grocery store, one good pothole and BAM your seat is sliding allover the floor of the car LOL...
EricTheCarGuy hey eric whilst your there my car was burning oil eg blue smoke but only after long idle and it did not make smoke whilst driving at any speed. So i got all 12 genuine valve stem seals from gm and a new head gasket and timing chain gasket all fitted for £380 but my car still smokes after it idles but not whilst driving or on after run down hill. At 1st i thought ahhh hes not installed my seals but my new head gasket is on because i can see it all shiney and new and my timing chain gasket is on to so what the hell is causing the smoke only after long idle ? It also got new correct plugs and i have run it in nice and slow over 1000 miles eg no high rpms thanks :-)
EricTheCarGuy i also thought actual valve seats might of worn but nothing was mentioned and he said everything was normal and great and wouldnt worn seat be covered by the new valve guide seals anyway so no oil would get down ?. And i also thought piston rings might be worn but the smoke totaly goes when the vehicle moves and you cant see a puff and wouldnt ring smoke all the time whilst driving ? Thanks :-)
EricTheCarGuy i also forgot i got new cylinder head bolts fitted as my garage said you need new ones when you remove the head so i have all new genuine valve guide seals new head gasket and timing chain gasket and new spark plugs of the correct heat range and new cylinder head bolts all torqued in the correct order etc etc but still blue smoke after long idle but not whilst driving wtf ? :-)
Tip- next time instead of using a grinding wheel use a wire wheel it will just take off old paint and rust to get to bare metal, won't take down the pre existing subframe strength
the distortion you had and the problem with the back having the gap is probably by design to preload the steel with tension. it will be stiffer that way.
All 70s designs were very flexible. Almost every chassis design that comes out is about 50% stiffer than its predecessor. I do not think extending them back will make any difference at all. I think it needs a bit more welding.
You can weld outriggers to the frame. Then weld them to the floor. That will stiffen it up a good bit. Just my humble opinion here. But I really think you should have stick welded these into place. I not sure a wire welder can burn steel like that together very well.
Good job Eric! You can sleep easily now knowing the Fairmont is stronger and safer. Time to add some more power! Are you going to upgrade with some bigger brakes? Stay dirty!
Eric, please use some heavy-duty rust-proofing on this. I would suggest Fluid Film + Perma Film! I would actually love to see a series on rust-proofing.
welds are cold, turn up wire speed a bunch and heat some and as long as you arent flopping your wrist all over the place your welds will look much better. i wouldnt chalk it up to user error just yet, make sure you have those settings right.
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Maximum Motorsports here. A couple of comments about the full length subframe connector (FLSC) installation.
These FLSC are designed for a 1979-2004 Mustang. The Fairmont has a wheelbase which is 4" longer, along with many other small differences. We have supplemental notes to aid in the installation of these FLSC on a Fairmont chassis. Here is a brief overview of these notes.
The FLSC needs to be slid rearwards about 1.5" when installed on a Fairmont chassis. This will require trimming the middle side plate gussets. The seat braces will need grinding to accomodate this. The bottom of each U section will need to be deepened. One side of the U section will need to be ground to compensate for the different seat hole mounting location in the Fairmont. It is easy to fill in the slight gap on the opposite side of the U section.
The transmission crossmember mounting brackets need to be removed completely from the bottom of the frame rails. This will require a couple of spot welds to be removed from the bottom of each frame rail. Once the FLSC is installed, the edge of the transmission bracket is rewelded to the side of the FLSC.
The Fairmont chassis has rear frame rail stubs that extend forward from the torque box towards the rear seat bulkhead. These stubs are not usually welded to the rear seat bulkhead. To get much more rigidity in the chassis, weld plates from both sides of these stubs to the sides of the FLSC as far forward as possible. This will probably require lifting of the carpet in the back seat area.
To get better welds on the car you need more heat. Turn up the voltage/current control on your welder to achieve this.
And also remove mill scale from raw steel parts.
For a second there, I thought Eric was going to use his torch on the bolt inside the car. 0.0
Great video, I like that you don’t pretend to have all the answers at the start and figure it out as you go. Now I get to do this on my svo.
I was definitely disappointed when the door-closing thing didn't go as planned. But I was very happy to hear that the car rides and handles far better than it did before -- I guess that's just something you have to feel, rather than see on a video.
*Very* much looking forward to future work on the Fairmont!
It took me over a year to realize that your Fairmont is a 2 door sedan. This thing is essentially just like my Notchback but a whole lot more beige. I can't wait for more videos like these.
This is going to be the most epic youtube build diary ever.
Americans with access to Fox Bodys are lucky people.
I'd love a Fox Mustang with IRS, what great cars the Fox platform are for modding in the States.
Adding the 4" extra inches on the connectors should definitely help. Think of it as a lever. The extra length will help the connector "carry" the load. As for the doors still not closing. That is a very common problem with these older fox chassis cars. Door hinge pin kit will more than likely solve that problem. A torque box kit should definitely be on your list of upgrades. The sheet metal around the rear suspension mounts is prone to tearing with larger engines and especially now that the chassis flexes less with the connectors. As long as you got good weld penetration, don't worry too much how they look. That will come with practice. Keep up the great work Eric!
Eric The Jump Cut Weld Guy is definitely a show I don't mind watching! Lol
Great job Eric. Years ago I installed weld in sub frame connectors in my Mustang GT and I couldn't believe the improvement they made. I agree with you they're a great bang for the buck mod. Looking forward to seeing your future modifications to your Fairmont.
One of my favorite Eric The Car Guy vids yet. Watching someone problem solve on a car like this is half the fun. Keep em coming!
I grew up really disliking the Fairmont, you were right on the target calling it a grocery getter, now I really like your project and I am warming up to the idea that the Fairmont can become a better car.
At 1:48, I think that the car is bending the other way: the roof is going up and both ends are going down. When I look at the door stripes when you lift the car at 1:36, the door edge has moved up compared to then the car is on the ground at 1:27. Since your lift point are farther from the ends, you have more overhang and are twisting the unibody.
Stitch welding the connector is a good idea, it will help both for the flexing and the twisting.
Welding the two plates over the bend on the tube will help with the stiffness. If you want to extend the connector in the front, you could add pieces of square tubing and connect them with the same type of plate. If you are lucky, a welding shop might have some leftover square tubing of the same size.
According to wikipedia, the wheelbase of the Fairmont is exactly 5" longer than the Mustang. Extending the frame connector another 5" will help especially since most the weight is in the front and the hydroformed part of the subframe is probably the stiffest part of the car.
Brings back memories. I've installed SFC's on several Mudstains. On my 88 GT I got a little crazy and installed both regular FLSFC's and in-floor SFC's. If you really want to see how flimsy a Foxbody chassis is then just start cutting into the floor, and inside the front subframes and you'd be surprised that the chassis can even support the weight of the vehicle. But yes SFC's are a great mod for a old pre-05 Mustang. Night and day difference that totally transforms and improves upon the chassis composer.
I remember I put frame connectors on my 88 Camaro. When I would turn in my driveway the back of the door would tap the quarter panel. Once I put them on, that problem ended. And driving was just what you mentioned. I could feel the car would take the expansion joints on bridges more solid and quietly..... well worth it.
Your commentary is outstanding. I have very little hands on ability when it comes to car repairs.(you should hear the F bombs even during a tire change).
I followed the whole process and the mods and reason behind them.great instructions.
I ran into a similar problem making subframe connectors for my 1990 Integra. I made them from 2x3 120 wall box tubing. The front settled nicely into a pocket on the factory hat channel after I plasma cut the floor pan. The rear was going to be impossible to weld as it sat under the rear passenger seat sheet metal and I had to make relief cuts and bend it open like trunk lid. I ended up using larger box tubing and making a sort of boxed c channel pocket for the rear to slide into. I welded the pocket in first using teh open top to access the rear most parts. Then I slid the rear section of my frame rail into the pocket. I had slotted and drilled holes in the pocket to plug weld the frame rail. When it was all welded in I boxed in the top with some the scraps of tubing I had left. In the end the car is now very rigid. If you jack it up from the front jack point the car goes up on two wheels dukes of hazard style. Hope this helps. Love the videos. Thanks.
The first most important mod on a fox body car ! And the best suspension brand for sure ! Hey Eric , some things that you will do on Fairmont also apply to 94-95 mustangs (they came with the 5.0 on GT and Cobra versions. The last years of the true 5.0) . And all suspension system is the same on 1979-2004 mustangs with little changes (except 01-04 Cobras with rear independent susp.) .
HI Eric. I have learned a lot from you, and grateful i am. But i also know a thing or two myself.And maybe i can help out a little on this. Structually you will get more rigidy if you do weld every three inche because the two metals well simply put become even more as one. But if you only weld at the three or four point per side that you did it would almost be like welding another fox body to the fox body, because all the unwelded areas allow space between the two metal where they will slide bend and flex parallel to each other. You can test this in a simple way. Take two chop sticks and tape at the ends only. Now bend and flex them. Now tape the entire length of the chop stick and try to bend and flex them now youll see the diffirence. Please take in consideration i beleive it would help a lot maybe you be even get the door closed.
It's best to weld in the subframe connectors with all of the vehicles weight resting on the wheels. Thanks for the video!
I always built my own frame connectors from scratch. those ones you bought don't attach to the rear lower control arm box where the control arm attaches and don't have any cross members for drive shaft loop and rear cross brace.
I'd also add an export brace under the hood to support the strut towers.the export brace will make the steering much more responsive.
Also I'd box in the rear control arms if you aren't going to use ladder bars and install urethane bushings
Why am I so excited to see this build progress! Awesome vid Eric!
I'm learning a lot of stuff with these videos and the more i learn the more i understand that my car sucks :-D
I like the plate idea in the rear over the extended tube fix. Great video!
Doing this to my 05 vert this year, flex is bad on it just haven't pulled the trigger on getting them yet. Awesome video Eric
I used to work on a fleet of limos, and it was standard practice to open all of the doors before lifting the limo because of body flex.
Have you thought about cutting the end plate off of that square box tubing and sliding the next size smaller tubing into it to get that extra 4 inches. It's already Bologna sliced on an angle so the side weld would get you a little bit more rigidity.
Chris
If you ask a girl, they'll say the 4 extra inches will make a big difference but probably not with that car. ;)
These videos are great too where Eric is more the noobish DIY'er than the pro car guy as you can learn a lot from seeing a project worked from a less experienced point of view like most of us would have that would attempt frame stiffening. It takes a humble person to show the world their less than perfect work. This looks like this project will be an educational journey for all of us instead of just a How-To.
My only advice would be to try and use a stiff wire wheel to clean the metal as opposed to the grinder as it would clean with the least amount of metal removal and maybe use weld-through primer instead of paint as no cleanup, durability under weld heat and likely protect from rust equally or better.
Crank up your welder a bit . I use 2"x4" towers that I made 14" tall . I put the car tires right on top of them then bolt and Weil with 28" of working clearance from the floor . I don't like using jack stands that much as they get in the way . As I have put frame con. on many of my and my friends cars I will have to say good job . It was fun to watch you doing this job .
Put a subframe brace on my wife's Saab convertible, my Lord. Before when you'd go over train tracks you were afraid the whole car was going to break in half, now unless you're paying attention the frame only flexes a little (enough to make the dash creak for a second, but basically every Saab I've ever had does that when it's 12 years old).
Added benefit is that it goes right under the oil pan, if you run over something it'll hit the subframe brace first hopefully sparing the oil pan. For the 12 pounds of weight it added it's incredible bang for the buck.
Great to see you working on your own project! Looking forward to new videos!
Extend the frame connectors the extra 4" and stitch weld them to the body. I bet that'll make a noticeable difference with the doors after you align them a bit.
FrankTheCat Totally agree. Stitch welding will make a difference, he also forgot the plates. That's a bend point.
you're right... the plates are crucial at week points.
Weld the torque boxes where the lower control arms attach. Also weld around where the upper control arms attach. Did it to my stang as a preventetive and made a world of diffrence. Good luck!
It isn't recommended you weld the connectors while the car is in the flexed position. Instead of using jack stands, lower the car onto some ramps and support it at the wheels. For safety I'd turn the ramps 90 degrees since you have that nifty lift.
Lengthening the connectors would certainly help but with limited contact points, torsional forces can still be transferred through the connectors, so more points of contact would also help. That is, if you're up for cutting and welding a little more steel. Gusseting would be less work and weigh a lot less than fitting a rollcage, and keep the added weight below the center of the wheels.
Anyway, just a thought.
I think you're on the right track when you said the doors may be part of the problem. I'd take a closer at them. Those doors have had a long time to adjust to the movement of the car. I'm sure all the other suggestions regarding welding are great, and will help, but I'd start looking at those doors.
But really, whether they close or not off the ground isn't saying much but showing something tangible to what is really important. You could spend hours or days trying to shore up the welding and adding length to get the doors to shut only to find it doesn't change the handling of the car enough to justify it.
Just my opinion.
Eric its an improvement and thats what matters, i dont expect you to be an expert car designer, its allready better, great job mate :D :D
Nice work on your Fairmont!!! A friend of mine is thinking about taking a 1957 Belair 4-door sedan from the scrap yard and replacing the doors, hood roof and trunk with carbon fiber replicas while keeping the rest of the body steel and dropping an engine from a Koenigsegg One 1 and make it twin supercharged instead of twin turbo. Last but not least install the One 1 wing on the rear of the Belair and keep the auto adjust feature
You're supposed to load the suspension when you weld in subframe connectors. When you put the car on the lift via pinch welds/frame, you're causing the chassis to flex. Once you have it in the air like this, if you weld the subframes on, you're welding them to an already flexed chassis. You need to do this on a frame rack or alignment rack that way the car is under normal load. I would recommend putting it on a frame rack and having the frame checked/straightened before attempting this as well, that way when you do it, it's 100% stable.
Hope this helps.
You make it LOOK so easy...
Here's the latest on the Fairmont project. ua-cam.com/video/Mtrw7DcUtHg/v-deo.html
EricTheCarGuy Eric did you paint over the parts that you grinded to bare metal? Because rust is a nasty thing to deal with.
armadillo platypus yeah that helps too. I always have a spare can of black paint laying around for painting over stuff. Sometimes I use primer too.
EricTheCarGuy should have sided switched the side the bracket is bolted to.first before grinding on the bracket
***** I think you misinterpreted my meaning. Actually what you're suggesting is what I wanted to use, I just didn't get the terminology correct. I realized the disc that I was using was for grinding, not removing paint. Thanks for the suggestions. I can use all the help I can get with my welding.
EricTheCarGuy hi Eric I have built a few trace cars in the past and would not grind the metal making it thinner but use a wire wheel to clean before welding. Also I would stitch weld all the spot welding on the car before adding the frame connectors.This strengthens the car before adding more strength.Loving your project from the UK
More heat, more wire speed. No exposed open gaps. And maybe a bit of weld in the inside portions of the brackets. some horizontal cross bracing on the frame bars. Strut tower braces.
ERIC THE CAR GUY FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!
My advice to you is to get as steady and comfortable as possible before welding out of position. Use both hands and make a few dry runs before pulling the trigger. Lighting can also help. But nothing beats practice. I have been welding for half my life and if I don't touch a stinger for a couple of weeks I find myself a little rusty.
One thing I would do after all welding is , treat the inside of the car frame near welds for rust prevention . If not it will rust inside of every place welded. no sense in doing all that and then let it rust away, because it will in there rust after welding if not addressed. There is also weld through primer to help where two pieces will lay together so it will not rust as fast. .
Great video, makes one think. Real quickly, I see about 60% flex, but that was 60% completion. Those small pads, the rail extensions and touch up the welds would achieve 98% or your goals, and I believe that would thrill you. I have often daydreamed about doing this to several 'floppy' handling vehicles, and now it's got my creativity going!!! Again, Good Work!
A kit I saw for my friend's 89 Mustang had a plate that boxed around the entire lower control arm area, as well as an added ladder frame going from the subframe connectors out toward the pinch welds under the rockers. No idea as far as "Before and After" as I never drove it before the mods, but it was a pretty solid car.
Like the idea of a smooth / quiet ride. Gett'n ideas.
Maybe the pressing the connectors into position "puckered" the body. What about adding shims while only the suspension is loaded to for even stress/contact along the the tubes length so the connectors only hold the chassis in it's grounded position?...with the doors closed for alignment. Probably wouldn't hurt to fill the connectors with a solid non porous mass such as let's say silicone (flame resistance), to displace air well into the future if water infiltrates due to splashing or high water through stress cracks with a downward facing fill and vent hole at opposite ends. How about an outright thick undercoat for the outer surfaces due to rock chipping, painting first, then rubberize the kit as well as any exposed fasteners under there with whats left in the can.
Great job on the install. I need to do this to my 91 coupe before I get it back on the road.
Everyone like this comment, Eric you forgot to weld in the flat plates that go over the bends in the tubing. This may be a big part of the problem, if not it would help stop the flex! Great video
Ryan Rawrgera You might want to watch the entire video. Thanks for the input.
EricTheCarGuy oh... lol I did not realise my bad! I ended the video literally seconds before.. excited to see how well it works.
Wow that body flex is ridiculous lmao.
*****
Yeah, I noticed he mentioned it in the video, I just never realized how much flex they actually had considering everyone praises the Fox body mustang as a great choice for a budget track/tuner car.
I do love this as an aftermarket option however, it's like making the Mustang *Or other fox bodies for that matter* body on frame (Not really, but you get what I am saying)
Weld through primer is your friend. Good vid, I bet once you weld it all up completely it will be a bit better. I'm sure you can tell it's better already though.
It is standard practice to "box" in the rear lower mount with steel plate. They like to break off in high horse power situations.
I seen you welds Eric.. you're getting another grinder for Christmas.
Hey Eric always enjoy watching your video's got your gears turning on this project :) lol... glad to see your keeping your sense of humor ^_^ and looking forward on your next video .
That's one thing I love about the Neon. It's a very stiff car even before you add strut tower braces and aftermarket sub-frame enhancements.
Hi EricTheCarGuy after you have welded in those plates try the doors on the lift see how much better it is as I imagine that will be giving a boat load of flex also might be worth giving a 1 inch weld every 3 inches to add more strength too awesome video though look forward to seeing many more :)
awesome video! you
e getting better at this
I bet if you stitch weld it on the ground it will strengthen it by 40% and your doors will close on the lift
dirtshower250 Maybe but added frame could bend too
dirtshower250 stitch weld plus channeling.
That, and the instructions say to pre-bend the subframe connectors to the frame and not the other way around. jacking the subframe TO the frame before you weld isn't doing this, and what's going to happen is you're welding it with some preloaded spring in the subframe connector. essentially it will now be trying to pull and twist the frame at all times. It might be very minor, but it's something that will be happening. I'm more worried about the welds than warpage.
Getting ready to start on this myself.
Great video Eric. Those connectors look great, I think they would benefit from cross bracing if you have the space. That may eliminate the need for a roll cage.
Your welder sounded real choppy. Thanks for posting this, my super coupe is a foxbody
Nice work! I remember some guys in high school (early '90s) that had these on their 5.0 Mustangs...lol. You can really see how the car flexes when you set it down on the jack stands as the weight comes off the lift.
I think it will be fine without a roll cage. As you mentioned before that would ruin the sleeper appearance IMO.
Awesome video bud like normal.This got me thinking if subframe connectors would help my 95 Camaro.
i would lengthen the subframe connector with some square tube. also the optional stitch welding will make the car more rigid and may help with the door flex. I am guessing the bushings in door hinges may need to be replaced this will also help with the door sagging.
You're very strategic when working Eric. It's very impressive. Leads me to believe you were a chess player in a previous life. Haha.
Imho, you should consider reinforcing the torque boxed first before doing this upgrade. Especially if you're planning to add power from a motor swap. Stock torque boxes flex and warp, yes your subframes help, but eventually when you put in a rollcage that might be something you want to think about. Torque box upgrades are important across the weak unibody fox platform.
Thanks for the video. We need some on our 74 Maverick badly.
At least you have no rust issue in that 79 fairmount . My 94 tempo looks great until you get under it , sadly it sat on Grass before I got ownership of the car, of course it's also a unibody and must go for scrap / parts.
One thing I love about my Crown Vic, body on full frame. It's so stiff even though the springs are pretty mild it's still a relatively stiff ride on rough roads, there's NO flex in the car.
I miss my 90 Mustang GT. I always wanted to restomod a Fairmont or LTD II (I think that's what they were).
Just a thought: It looks like the frame connectors mostly add to longitudinal rigidity (yes, there were the under seat brackets, but nothing rigid that connected both frame bars). I'm surprised that there were not any supports to add rigidity to the transverse axis - which would explain why the doors still would not shut correctly. These mods are common on MX5/miatas and they are a full square assembly that seeks to add rigidity to both longitudinal and transversal axis.
Saw you on drift garage, I was a little surprised. But I don't know why I would be, car guys are car guys. Anyway, that was really cool.
The show on Network A?
Ramon Macias I think thats the one hes talking about? I have never seen Eric on that..?
Very common item to install on uni-bodies. The Mustang is 4" shorter but also has reinforcements in places your Fairmont doesn't. Same issues that GM F and X -Body owners face. The performance versions had extra braces in the uni-body sections while the base models didn't.
Can't help but mention it sounds like you had the wire speed a touch too slow the whole time you were welding. it could have used another 10 or so on the wire feed speed. It was struggling to keep up with your welding.
Other than that I believe the setup and approach you took with the jack stands ect was perfect 🤙🏼
@ericthecarguy they sell reinforcement plates for the front seat studs and they're a great cheap investment as the studs seem to snap out of the floor fairly often as a matter of fact the SSP police mustangs came with the reinforcement I'm talking about. Just my .02 as a fellow fox owner
Wow...you just made a complete car frame now....a car with a frame...no unibody.
ive got some subframe connectors for my foxbody cobra ive been wondering about removing the lip of that bracket forever thanks for the info
To extend the frame connectors rearward, you're going to want to weld a plate onto each vertical face of the connector, that extends at least one foot forward on the connector and all the way to the rear where the original connector was intended to connect on the Mustang. You could do this with a larger piece of square tubing that was cut away, or with L channels.
I am in love with your Fairmont.
I hate welding underneath the car so much. At least you had a dry warmish place to do it.
I agree, needs a cage.
EricTheCarGuy quote "I smell delicious." lol
Good video Eric. I have a suggestion, however. Sounds like your electrode/gun lead may have too many loops in it, or your voltage and wire feed speed may be unbalanced. That causes wire feeding to become slightly erratic, and may cause welds to become inadequately penetrated. May I suggest watching a channel called "welding tips and tricks"? Jody has some very informative videos.
thought Id never see a vid on this thing since the tease in January LOL
Extending those would be a lot of work for only a limited gain if any.
I know that the Fox body twists quite a bit and the only real way to fix that is reinforcing the dash mounting bracket or running a tube from the left to right front down post of a roll cage.
If you want a "road racing" stiff unibody, you will need a full cage. Yeah a frame on the inside !
I would say Eric wait on the extensions of the frame connectors till you get all your new suspension parts in place then feel how it rides if you think you could do more I would say make your own extension piece and weld them to the new frame connectors. older worn out components may be what's making you feel that not so 100 percent
Just a couple of thoughts: Careful about heating through the floor, may melt or catch the carpet underlayment on fire. Also, after welding, the paint on the top of the tubes is probably gone again. Cool project though.
My thoughts... I would extend up to the point where the suspension connects to the body with a box type extension (the same as the rest) so it can hold the bending (a plate won't do much)
Great Video. Thank you.
Nice. Great job.
WOW... I wonder how many people drove these things until the seats rusted through the floor? That'd be a rude trip to the grocery store, one good pothole and BAM your seat is sliding allover the floor of the car LOL...
Lol like the product placement magnets on the hoist near the end of the video :-)
carlcostello360 Those are my new license plate covers!
EricTheCarGuy hey eric whilst your there my car was burning oil eg blue smoke but only after long idle and it did not make smoke whilst driving at any speed. So i got all 12 genuine valve stem seals from gm and a new head gasket and timing chain gasket all fitted for £380 but my car still smokes after it idles but not whilst driving or on after run down hill. At 1st i thought ahhh hes not installed my seals but my new head gasket is on because i can see it all shiney and new and my timing chain gasket is on to so what the hell is causing the smoke only after long idle ? It also got new correct plugs and i have run it in nice and slow over 1000 miles eg no high rpms thanks :-)
EricTheCarGuy i also thought actual valve seats might of worn but nothing was mentioned and he said everything was normal and great and wouldnt worn seat be covered by the new valve guide seals anyway so no oil would get down ?. And i also thought piston rings might be worn but the smoke totaly goes when the vehicle moves and you cant see a puff and wouldnt ring smoke all the time whilst driving ? Thanks :-)
EricTheCarGuy i also forgot i got new cylinder head bolts fitted as my garage said you need new ones when you remove the head so i have all new genuine valve guide seals new head gasket and timing chain gasket and new spark plugs of the correct heat range and new cylinder head bolts all torqued in the correct order etc etc but still blue smoke after long idle but not whilst driving wtf ? :-)
Eric, thank you again for the great video!
great report
Tip- next time instead of using a grinding wheel use a wire wheel it will just take off old paint and rust to get to bare metal, won't take down the pre existing subframe strength
the distortion you had and the problem with the back having the gap is probably by design to preload the steel with tension. it will be stiffer that way.
All 70s designs were very flexible. Almost every chassis design that comes out is about 50% stiffer than its predecessor. I do not think extending them back will make any difference at all. I think it needs a bit more welding.
You can weld outriggers to the frame. Then weld them to the floor. That will stiffen it up a good bit. Just my humble opinion here. But I really think you should have stick welded these into place. I not sure a wire welder can burn steel like that together very well.
Good job Eric! You can sleep easily now knowing the Fairmont is stronger and safer. Time to add some more power! Are you going to upgrade with some bigger brakes? Stay dirty!
Very good as usual!
Starting to think you're secretly a host on Speed Academy 🤔
Eric, please use some heavy-duty rust-proofing on this. I would suggest Fluid Film + Perma Film!
I would actually love to see a series on rust-proofing.
perhaps another bracket to the pan - similar to the seat one but come over the square tube from the bottom
I am thinking that leaving those bend reinforcement gussets off could be a large cause of your door closing only getting a little better.
welds are cold, turn up wire speed a bunch and heat some and as long as you arent flopping your wrist all over the place your welds will look much better. i wouldnt chalk it up to user error just yet, make sure you have those settings right.
u the man Eric I'm a new fan brother