Nick, Just donated to your channel. What i have donated is just nothing comparing to your services and knowledge that you are sharing in this community. God bless you..
@@nickstransmissions Nick, this is general questions not specific to GM transmission, more towards toyota or honda.. lets say someone says reverse is not working. lets assume it is direct clutch is responsibile for that(just for example). i removed valve body and applied the air check on that direct clutch if it hold air pressure well , does that mean that clutch is good. 2. i also tested llne pressure both at idle and stall and it is within spec.. if above 2 condition are met can i assume it is not direct clutch and it is more towards valve body.
There's really no correlation between a working clutch on air-check and the health of the frictions IF the clutch is working when air is applied...The clutch can still work but frictions/steels be burnt due them slipping under load as a result of wear and tear...If you do an air check and nothing happens (clutch or band fails to apply), that would explain a no-movement or missing gear condition. So the only time you can draw any conclusions based on air check alone is when you have a 'no-apply' condition for a given clutch. If the clutch does apply when subjected to air pressure but is still burnt, other factors (including normal age/wear) are at play...Hope that helps.
@@nickstransmissions Thanks man. You are a genius. I asked this question in many forums and got answers that are are high level, no one told me that air check will be good but burned clutch can slip. Some of the information that you are giving me is GOLD. i can read books , manuals, get trained, but small things like this is really helpful to build the knowledge.I am donating 50 dollar this time because i cant stop it. Again it is not about money it is time that you spend to explain such small things in more understable way for a beginers like me. Thanks a billion. questions. 1. In order to eliminate valve body from the questions, can i remove it from the transmission and if i do vaccum test and if it holds 15 to 20 , can i eliminate valve body from that equation. 2. I can buy sonnax vaccum tester, but cant afford to buy the test plate, can u pls do a video to test without plate. in one of your video you said it is possible but not sure if you have one to test without a plate. 3. How do i know if the slip is because of clutch or valve body or torque converter. a) I assume if vaccum holds good slip mostly might not be valve body. b) I also assume if the torque converter soleoid is not activated and if i see a slipo then it is not torque converter. I was told by one more mentor, that when a torque converter is slipping, lightly tapping the brake will disengage torque converter .. is that true for all transmission. This was told for Toyota.
Quick question I have my yoke and when I insert it into the output shaft in the rear it goes all the way through without stopping is that okay is the trans still good if not what could be wrong
I got bit by the used works good marketplace 4l80e. The forward drum was smoked steels and frictions were so bad they skipped teeth had to buy another drum and pressure plate.
Buying used is always a gamble, you never know what you're actually going to end up with...I try to tell that to folks on internet forums all the time, pushing them to rebuild their existing units but rarely do they listen. Thanks for watching, horsefly!
Nick one rookie question. In terms of clutch (not a brake). It has steel plate and friction plate. Purpose of clutch is make something else to rotate. Let s assume that is sun gear. We are also assuming that clutch is rotating and clutch is not applied, so it is not engaged to sun gear. Question is when clutch is rotating steel plate will rotate. What about friction plate that is connected to sungear ?wiill it rotate or it will not rotate along with steel plate . Again this is under assumption that clutch is not applied
Hi Sivucit...One correction - the purpose of the clutch is NOT to make something rotate; it's actually the opposite - to hold something that may otherwise rotate or freewheel to brake (as in be held). Transmissions have two different types of clutches: Drive clutches and Brake Clutches. As for the rest of your question, my 6L80E Diagnosis and Troubleshooting video may be the closest thing I have to a power flow vid but I think it will help you understand how a transmission works using largely layman's terms as well as using application charts to aid in diagnosis. Give it a view when you have some time, if you haven't already: ua-cam.com/video/IFLbakvyQzA/v-deo.html
Nick, when i pull engine out, i use 2 ton engine crane or cherry piicker then move to engine stand then i work. how do you move transmission to bench. do you need 2 person to hold or again u need engine crane and even so how do u move this backto bench. any tip would be helpful
Going to answer all of your recent questions with this post - please reply to this comment here if you have any more vs posting a brand new comment so everything stays in one place... I'll incorporate some tips in my 4L80E special tools vid when it comes out later this week. Re bushing r/r/: I'd consider looking for a mid-size arbor press in lieu of a shop press or simply outsourcing bushing removal and reinstallation to a shop...You really need a press of some sort to properly install the bushings (I'm guessing you plan on driving them in with a hammer and bushing driver set?) - if so, you can do that but it's much risker and easier to install the bushing in slightly out of square. Most 4L80E bushings don't have any stops to square it hence why I recommend getting a press of some sort or outsourcing the bushing removal and reinstallation process to a transmission shop if you don't have room for a press...Perhaps you can free up some space by relocating stuff that isn't used all that much to another location in your shop? I use hydraulic lift carts to move the transmission to the bench as well as remove it from the stand/fixture when it's all done. I don't have helpers for those tasks.
@@nickstransmissions Thanks so much Nick for taking time and responding to my basic questions. I like to rebuild U760E (toyota )transmission and may be honda at some time later. i took your videos as inspriations because you explain everything. i bought manual from ATSG . i also have seen videos from other channel about how to disassemble and assembler, but they dont explain basics like they way u do in your channel. thanks again. yes i was planning to use rod (small diameter) with bolt and cup on one side and adapter on other side to push new bushing in. this is how we push car new wheel bearing in. i thought of using that method without press. it kind of does the same thing you block on one side and other side you have to put a rod in driving adapter to drive it with bolt .. I will stay away from that if you dont recommend that.
@@nickstransmissions Nick, Just donated to your channel. when you used the blind spot puller , upto what size you have used most, I like to buy good quality one. Snap on or OTC can do upto 1 1/4 inch. where as Amazon chinese one can do upto 2 1/4 inch. if 1 1/4 will do fine. I will buy it. Also if possibled down the line, if you can show how you mounted your transmission to bench using hydralic one that will help as well.. one tip i want to give on bushing driver, there is something called stepped bushing driver that will allow you to press littlee more in then flush. (just incase if you dont know). Thanks
Thank you very much. I have benefited from your information I have a question and I hope you can answer it quickly because I am going to buy a 4L80 gearbox, but the power socket in my car is different. The one in my car is 7+4 pin divided into two pieces, and the new 11pin is one piece. Can I exchange one piece and replace it with the old one that comes in two pieces?
Hi @agrabalseed6662, thank you for watching. You existing connector on the vehicle's wiring harness to the trans should work as long as the pins line up but if you need to install another connector onto the vehicle harness then that's what you'll have to do...
Hi MF, thank you for watching...Based solely on what you've mentioned, I'd check things like motor mounts, rear transmission mount, U-joints, driveline, rear end to start (assuming you haven't done this already)...Most of the time, these 'bumps' that happen in first immediately after taking off are attributed to those things vs something internal transmission or TC.
@@nickstransmissions everything else is good. Definitely in trans. It's on the bench now. Was my first 4l80e build. After a successful 4l60e "175k so far". On the sonnax performance pack the dual feed directions it doesnt mention leaving that lip seal out. Which I didn't do. I feel I should leave out this time.
There's two schools of thought on that drum seal when it comes to dual feeding: leave it out or keep it in... Leave it out: This allows fluid to fill the cavity entirely without any partitioning of the piston which means marginally faster apply/quicker shift Leave it in: In this scenario, the center seal acts as a timing 'abatement' agent, slowing apply ever so slightly to cushion the shift feel I always leave it out as I want the direct clutch to come on as fast as possible since there's no concern about timing the release of a shifting band like in the 4L60E/700R4 or 200-4R. Since WOT shifts are happening at 5000+ RPMs in a high performance situation, anything that may impeded the clutch pack's travel to full apply isn't desirable. All that said, there are very well respected builders who feel it should be left in so as to promote better apply quality and that you can compensate for the timing issue by incrementally increasing the size of the 2-3 feed orifice (the assumption here is the 2-3 and 3-4 accumulators have been deleted via a block off plate). Hope that helps...
@@nickstransmissions thanks for that. A part of me was hoping that was my second bump problem. Pulled trans apart everything looks good so far. The kolene steels left a black residue film in the bottom of trans.
Why is it so hard to find a late model 4l80e to rebuild? I want to put one behind a 5.3L L59 Suburban 4x4. I have a recipe (new crossmember support, new harness, flex plate, ecm tune, etc) BUT I cannot find a later year unit to buy (prefer 2013 - last year made).
Hi Keith, thank you for watching...I am facing the same problems sourcing good rebuildable cores out here as well...Everyone wants them for 4L60E swaps and resto-mods/hot rods...I've been going to junk yards and pulling them where ever I can find them. You don't need a 2013 year specifically, as they were all identical in every material way from 1999 and up. For real high performance, I prefer to install a 1991-1998 overdrive gear set service pack that uses the large roller OD one way clutch as the 2001+ are a bit undersized, IMO.
It's the most popular overdrive transmission that people want for hotrods/ off-road even racer's use them for drag and drive builds. Think about all the 4.8/5.3 LS swaps people do but these only came in the heavyduty trucks /vans with 6.0 and 8.1
Idk if you check your comments but I'm hoping to take a 4l80e 2wd tranny and swap it into a 1992 k2500 4wd with a np 241c . From what I've read all I need to do is find a 32 spline input shaft for my np241c transfer case and remove the 2wd tailshaft replace it with a 4wd tailshaft and cut the length of the output shaft to allow it to mate up with the transfer case input shaft and the 4wd tailshaft ? But how do I connect my dash shifter linkage to it and how do I get it to shift?
Hi John, thank you for watching...I always check my comments and get alerts on my phone whenever someone posts a new comment to one of my videos. Here's the steps to convert a 2WD 4L80E to a 4WD 4L80E: 1- replace 2WD output shaft with 4WD output shaft (trans disassembly is required for this but you can try cutting the output shaft splined portion to length to avoid disassembly) 2. Rear case pin hole seal must be replaced with solid lube port plug (AD Delco - 9427692) 3. Replace 2WD extension housing with 4WD extension housing that is compatible with the transfer case you will be using Your 2WD 4L80E will already have the tone ring/reluctor gear on the rear planet for the output speed sensor as all of those 4L80E 4x4s had them until 1994 when the OSS was deleted/non-function for all 4WD units going forward. Not sure on the dash shifter, etc - you'll need to consult someone who has expertise doing these swaps - I do only bench builds...So once the transmission leaves my possession, my involvement with it is over unless it needs guarantee/warranty repair work for some reason.
Thanks for watching, Dale...Are you looking for a comparison video between the two of them or just asking my opinion in general when it comes to those two transmissions?
@@nickstransmissions I’d be interested in seeing a comparison video between the 2 if you have already. Best use cases and why which is better to go with depending on each case, benefits, pros cons etc .
@@nickstransmissions Nick, Appreciate if you can asnwer this Question. questions. 1. In order to eliminate valve body from the questions, can i remove it from the transmission and if i do vaccum test and if it holds 15 to 20 , can i eliminate valve body from that equation. 2. I can buy sonnax vaccum tester, but cant afford to buy the test plate, can u pls do a video to test without plate. in one of your video you said it is possible but not sure if you have one to test without a plate. 3. How do i know if the slip is because of clutch or valve body or torque converter. a) I assume if vaccum holds good slip mostly might not be valve body. b) I also assume if the torque converter soleoid is not activated and if i see a slipo then it is not torque converter. I was told by one more mentor, that when a torque converter is slipping, lightly tapping the brake will disengage torque converter .. is that true for all transmission. This was told for Toyota.
Yep - if a given hydraulic circuit is holding 15-20 Hg, it's healthy and not the cause of the problem, whatever it may be. Same applies to the valves in the pump.
I don't but can make one...I'll be tearing down a 4L80E later today which I'll be filming so can do a quick video on how to test the valve body without the Sonnax valve body-specific test plate. Most folks won't have those plates and Sonnax techs have told me they are likely going to be discontinued as they aren't selling all that well...
You have inspired me to go to the junkyards this weekend to go hunting. I’m no longer afraid of transmissions haha
Awesome, Chris - happy hunting, stay cool!
Nick, Just donated to your channel. What i have donated is just nothing comparing to your services and knowledge that you are sharing in this community. God bless you..
Thanks, man - appreciate it!
@@nickstransmissions Nick, this is general questions not specific to GM transmission, more towards toyota or honda.. lets say someone says reverse is not working. lets assume it is direct clutch is responsibile for that(just for example). i removed valve body and applied the air check on that direct clutch if it hold air pressure well , does that mean that clutch is good. 2. i also tested llne pressure both at idle and stall and it is within spec.. if above 2 condition are met can i assume it is not direct clutch and it is more towards valve body.
There's really no correlation between a working clutch on air-check and the health of the frictions IF the clutch is working when air is applied...The clutch can still work but frictions/steels be burnt due them slipping under load as a result of wear and tear...If you do an air check and nothing happens (clutch or band fails to apply), that would explain a no-movement or missing gear condition.
So the only time you can draw any conclusions based on air check alone is when you have a 'no-apply' condition for a given clutch. If the clutch does apply when subjected to air pressure but is still burnt, other factors (including normal age/wear) are at play...Hope that helps.
@@nickstransmissions Thanks man. You are a genius. I asked this question in many forums and got answers that are are high level, no one told me that air check will be good but burned clutch can slip. Some of the information that you are giving me is GOLD. i can read books , manuals, get trained, but small things like this is really helpful to build the knowledge.I am donating 50 dollar this time because i cant stop it. Again it is not about money it is time that you spend to explain such small things in more understable way for a beginers like me. Thanks a billion.
questions.
1. In order to eliminate valve body from the questions, can i remove it from the transmission and if i do vaccum test and if it holds 15 to 20 , can i eliminate valve body from that equation.
2. I can buy sonnax vaccum tester, but cant afford to buy the test plate, can u pls do a video to test without plate. in one of your video you said it is possible but not sure if you have one to test without a plate.
3. How do i know if the slip is because of clutch or valve body or torque converter.
a) I assume if vaccum holds good slip mostly might not be valve body.
b) I also assume if the torque converter soleoid is not activated and if i see a slipo then it is not torque converter.
I was told by one more mentor, that when a torque converter is slipping, lightly tapping the brake will disengage torque converter .. is that true for all transmission. This was told for Toyota.
Thanks for the kind words, man. Glad the information in the videos and comments is helpful for you.
Thanks!
Great information on the early years. I just stumbled across your channel and will be checking out more of your videos sir.
Thank you, orangetruckman!
Quick question I have my yoke and when I insert it into the output shaft in the rear it goes all the way through without stopping is that okay is the trans still good if not what could be wrong
That's fine - some output shafts are fully splined while others are not.
Very informative as always ..Thanks again for sharing your knowledge…!
Thanks, BF4L!! Always appreciate your viewership and kind words.
I got bit by the used works good marketplace 4l80e. The forward drum was smoked steels and frictions were so bad they skipped teeth had to buy another drum and pressure plate.
Buying used is always a gamble, you never know what you're actually going to end up with...I try to tell that to folks on internet forums all the time, pushing them to rebuild their existing units but rarely do they listen. Thanks for watching, horsefly!
Nick one rookie question. In terms of clutch (not a brake). It has steel plate and friction plate. Purpose of clutch is make something else to rotate. Let s assume that is sun gear. We are also assuming that clutch is rotating and clutch is not applied, so it is not engaged to sun gear. Question is when clutch is rotating steel plate will rotate. What about friction plate that is connected to sungear ?wiill it rotate or it will not rotate along with steel plate . Again this is under assumption that clutch is not applied
Hi Sivucit...One correction - the purpose of the clutch is NOT to make something rotate; it's actually the opposite - to hold something that may otherwise rotate or freewheel to brake (as in be held). Transmissions have two different types of clutches: Drive clutches and Brake Clutches.
As for the rest of your question, my 6L80E Diagnosis and Troubleshooting video may be the closest thing I have to a power flow vid but I think it will help you understand how a transmission works using largely layman's terms as well as using application charts to aid in diagnosis.
Give it a view when you have some time, if you haven't already: ua-cam.com/video/IFLbakvyQzA/v-deo.html
appreciate the videos! lookin' like i might be tearing one apart in the near future 😀
Thanks, man! Check out my teardown vids on these units for things to inspect and look out for. Will be doing another 4L80E teardown this coming week..
Learned a lot ...good stuff...appreciate it.
Thanks, KtFuture!!
Nick, when i pull engine out, i use 2 ton engine crane or cherry piicker then move to engine stand then i work. how do you move transmission to bench. do you need 2 person to hold or again u need engine crane and even so how do u move this backto bench. any tip would be helpful
Going to answer all of your recent questions with this post - please reply to this comment here if you have any more vs posting a brand new comment so everything stays in one place...
I'll incorporate some tips in my 4L80E special tools vid when it comes out later this week. Re bushing r/r/: I'd consider looking for a mid-size arbor press in lieu of a shop press or simply outsourcing bushing removal and reinstallation to a shop...You really need a press of some sort to properly install the bushings (I'm guessing you plan on driving them in with a hammer and bushing driver set?) - if so, you can do that but it's much risker and easier to install the bushing in slightly out of square.
Most 4L80E bushings don't have any stops to square it hence why I recommend getting a press of some sort or outsourcing the bushing removal and reinstallation process to a transmission shop if you don't have room for a press...Perhaps you can free up some space by relocating stuff that isn't used all that much to another location in your shop?
I use hydraulic lift carts to move the transmission to the bench as well as remove it from the stand/fixture when it's all done. I don't have helpers for those tasks.
@@nickstransmissions Thanks so much Nick for taking time and responding to my basic questions. I like to rebuild U760E (toyota )transmission and may be honda at some time later. i took your videos as inspriations because you explain everything. i bought manual from ATSG . i also have seen videos from other channel about how to disassemble and assembler, but they dont explain basics like they way u do in your channel. thanks again. yes i was planning to use rod (small diameter) with bolt and cup on one side and adapter on other side to push new bushing in. this is how we push car new wheel bearing in. i thought of using that method without press. it kind of does the same thing you block on one side and other side you have to put a rod in driving adapter to drive it with bolt .. I will stay away from that if you dont recommend that.
@@nickstransmissions Nick, Just donated to your channel. when you used the blind spot puller , upto what size you have used most, I like to buy good quality one. Snap on or OTC can do upto 1 1/4 inch. where as Amazon chinese one can do upto 2 1/4 inch. if 1 1/4 will do fine. I will buy it.
Also if possibled down the line, if you can show how you mounted your transmission to bench using hydralic one that will help as well.. one tip i want to give on bushing driver, there is something called stepped bushing driver that will allow you to press littlee more in then flush. (just incase if you dont know). Thanks
Thank you very much. I have benefited from your information I have a question and I hope you can answer it quickly because I am going to buy a 4L80 gearbox, but the power socket in my car is different. The one in my car is 7+4 pin divided into two pieces, and the new 11pin is one piece. Can I exchange one piece and replace it with the old one that comes in two pieces?
Hi @agrabalseed6662, thank you for watching. You existing connector on the vehicle's wiring harness to the trans should work as long as the pins line up but if you need to install another connector onto the vehicle harness then that's what you'll have to do...
Good job,great video
Thanks, Wilburn!
Thanks for the videos. What would your opinion be on a slight bump right after you start to take off? Happens in manual and auto.
Hi MF, thank you for watching...Based solely on what you've mentioned, I'd check things like motor mounts, rear transmission mount, U-joints, driveline, rear end to start (assuming you haven't done this already)...Most of the time, these 'bumps' that happen in first immediately after taking off are attributed to those things vs something internal transmission or TC.
@@nickstransmissions everything else is good. Definitely in trans. It's on the bench now. Was my first 4l80e build. After a successful 4l60e "175k so far". On the sonnax performance pack the dual feed directions it doesnt mention leaving that lip seal out. Which I didn't do. I feel I should leave out this time.
There's two schools of thought on that drum seal when it comes to dual feeding: leave it out or keep it in...
Leave it out: This allows fluid to fill the cavity entirely without any partitioning of the piston which means marginally faster apply/quicker shift
Leave it in: In this scenario, the center seal acts as a timing 'abatement' agent, slowing apply ever so slightly to cushion the shift feel
I always leave it out as I want the direct clutch to come on as fast as possible since there's no concern about timing the release of a shifting band like in the 4L60E/700R4 or 200-4R. Since WOT shifts are happening at 5000+ RPMs in a high performance situation, anything that may impeded the clutch pack's travel to full apply isn't desirable.
All that said, there are very well respected builders who feel it should be left in so as to promote better apply quality and that you can compensate for the timing issue by incrementally increasing the size of the 2-3 feed orifice (the assumption here is the 2-3 and 3-4 accumulators have been deleted via a block off plate).
Hope that helps...
@@nickstransmissions thanks for that. A part of me was hoping that was my second bump problem.
Pulled trans apart everything looks good so far. The kolene steels left a black residue film in the bottom of trans.
Why is it so hard to find a late model 4l80e to rebuild? I want to put one behind a 5.3L L59 Suburban 4x4.
I have a recipe (new crossmember support, new harness, flex plate, ecm tune, etc) BUT I cannot find a later year unit to buy (prefer 2013 - last year made).
Hi Keith, thank you for watching...I am facing the same problems sourcing good rebuildable cores out here as well...Everyone wants them for 4L60E swaps and resto-mods/hot rods...I've been going to junk yards and pulling them where ever I can find them. You don't need a 2013 year specifically, as they were all identical in every material way from 1999 and up.
For real high performance, I prefer to install a 1991-1998 overdrive gear set service pack that uses the large roller OD one way clutch as the 2001+ are a bit undersized, IMO.
It's the most popular overdrive transmission that people want for hotrods/ off-road even racer's use them for drag and drive builds. Think about all the 4.8/5.3 LS swaps people do but these only came in the heavyduty trucks /vans with 6.0 and 8.1
Great info!!
Thanks, man!
Idk if you check your comments but I'm hoping to take a 4l80e 2wd tranny and swap it into a 1992 k2500 4wd with a np 241c . From what I've read all I need to do is find a 32 spline input shaft for my np241c transfer case and remove the 2wd tailshaft replace it with a 4wd tailshaft and cut the length of the output shaft to allow it to mate up with the transfer case input shaft and the 4wd tailshaft ? But how do I connect my dash shifter linkage to it and how do I get it to shift?
Hi John, thank you for watching...I always check my comments and get alerts on my phone whenever someone posts a new comment to one of my videos.
Here's the steps to convert a 2WD 4L80E to a 4WD 4L80E:
1- replace 2WD output shaft with 4WD output shaft (trans disassembly is required for this but you can try cutting the output shaft splined portion to length to avoid disassembly)
2. Rear case pin hole seal must be replaced with solid lube port plug (AD Delco - 9427692)
3. Replace 2WD extension housing with 4WD extension housing that is compatible with the transfer case you will be using
Your 2WD 4L80E will already have the tone ring/reluctor gear on the rear planet for the output speed sensor as all of those 4L80E 4x4s had them until 1994 when the OSS was deleted/non-function for all 4WD units going forward.
Not sure on the dash shifter, etc - you'll need to consult someone who has expertise doing these swaps - I do only bench builds...So once the transmission leaves my possession, my involvement with it is over unless it needs guarantee/warranty repair work for some reason.
Noice video
Thanks, Scoobee.
4l80 vs 6l80.....
Thanks for watching, Dale...Are you looking for a comparison video between the two of them or just asking my opinion in general when it comes to those two transmissions?
@@nickstransmissions I’d be interested in seeing a comparison video between the 2 if you have already. Best use cases and why which is better to go with depending on each case, benefits, pros cons etc .
Thanks, Jay - will look to do a video covering that topic.
I think the 6l90e would be a better comparison since they came in heavyduty stuff like the 4l80e. I'm no expert though.
TRANS Park Neutral
Thanks!
Thanks a ton, man! Appreciate the support🍻⚙️
@@nickstransmissions Nick, Appreciate if you can asnwer this Question.
questions.
1. In order to eliminate valve body from the questions, can i remove it from the transmission and if i do vaccum test and if it holds 15 to 20 , can i eliminate valve body from that equation.
2. I can buy sonnax vaccum tester, but cant afford to buy the test plate, can u pls do a video to test without plate. in one of your video you said it is possible but not sure if you have one to test without a plate.
3. How do i know if the slip is because of clutch or valve body or torque converter.
a) I assume if vaccum holds good slip mostly might not be valve body.
b) I also assume if the torque converter soleoid is not activated and if i see a slipo then it is not torque converter.
I was told by one more mentor, that when a torque converter is slipping, lightly tapping the brake will disengage torque converter .. is that true for all transmission. This was told for Toyota.
Yep - if a given hydraulic circuit is holding 15-20 Hg, it's healthy and not the cause of the problem, whatever it may be. Same applies to the valves in the pump.
@@nickstransmissions thanks nick. Do you have video of using Sonax vaccine tester without plate pls.
I don't but can make one...I'll be tearing down a 4L80E later today which I'll be filming so can do a quick video on how to test the valve body without the Sonnax valve body-specific test plate. Most folks won't have those plates and Sonnax techs have told me they are likely going to be discontinued as they aren't selling all that well...