Man I knew there was something weird going on. I wonder if the same thing applies to supply efficiency? There might be an optimal output gap to have as well
Chrightt talked some about it on his generators video (and i think touched on it on the energy weapons too) and how extra energy left is added to the regeneration, so its always nice to not max out energy supply either, and how this was most efficient with some generators than others (making some slower regeneration generators pretty decent, since they have a high supply and since you dont max them out easily, even if they regenerate less you still add all the extra capacity that you are not using to said lower regeneration) Now, breakpoints per se, like on this video, havent noticed on energy, it seems to be determined only by output/used/not used, but could be one hidden somewhere.
I've been trying to figure that out myself. Barring the funny Institute-made generators or Arquebus's ultra-specialized energy weapon-specced pieces, I do notice the quick recovery models like the LING-TAI really can't carry much total energy load. The HOKUSHI feels good to use overall on a middleweight, but I'd suggest the VP-20C if you're using energy weapons.
@@Darkja Yeah, I do think regeneration is a stat that have a lot of diminishing returns tho. Like, a 100 regen and 2000 regen is a whole world of difference, but a 2000 and 4000 regen difference might not feel that big.
Also, boosters have an ideal qb weight stat, which is the weight above which your qb performance will be compromised. Check that your actual weight and qb ideal weight aren't too far apart.
Now THIS is some help (alongside the video). Thought my gills boosters were flat out dog water, but it just so seems to be my super-heavy bipedal build itself to be the problem😅
@@isaacmarcucci3777 yeah, i see. What im looking for is a booster with decent stats (can sacrifice melee quick boost, not needed) to keep up with as many enemy builds as possible
I've noticed this, but not as keenly as you have. As you said, I use primarily lighter legs so I'm often over burdened well before hitting the 75k soft cap. But those few builds where I do go over, I notice the sudden drop in booster speed and often attempt to mitigate it. I assumed this limit was tied the QB ideal weight limit (that it influences QB reload time and weight/speed penalty), but never dug into the numbers beyond "that's slower than I'd like, let's lighten the load"
Honestly, my first thought was that it was something funky with underweighting the legs load limit (it's been done like that in the past). The data pointed to a much simpler answer though.
I did think my heavier chicken leg and mind beta builds were way too sensitive to weight compared to other reverse joints, but putting this feeling into a graph is a lot better than just having a hunch that something's wrong. Good job.
Reverse joint jumpy legs are weird overall. They have pitiful weight limits and poor stability to boot while also being slower than bipeds! You're better off using hopping and boosting as your main mode of movement instead of grounded boosting during combat since you'll constantly throw off the enemy aim - that's where they shine.
@@kirbyis4ever I really can't agree with reverse joints being slower than bipeds. Kasuar ground QBs are something else. And the weight limits are not a big deal. Even Kasuar's strict limits were enough for me the entire game. And even Mind Beta can support all of your extravagant pure dps builds for S ranking and stuff. You aren't ever required to use the chicken legs. P.S. Hell, I could almost cram Zimmermans and Songbirds on a Kasuar platform with the overburden OS upgrade and it was still really fast despite going a kilo over the limit.
I have similar feelings about quads. There high weight makes it really hard to make them fast. I only have one quad build that manages to stay above 75K
@@DIMOHA25 I meant in a drag race, no quickboosting, their boost speed is generally beaten by a biped. If you use them as intended with their superior jumps they blow bipeds out the water for speed! It comes at great cost though.
@@A-0602 I have a hard time enjoying the quads myself. Upper middle-to-heavyweight mechs feel extremely sluggish (I can't play slower than 300m/s boost speed) so I find it's generally most enjoyable to just stick to bipedal or reverse-joint. Getting used to reverse-joint was a bit of a challenge but I've found myself loving them more and more with time. Plus, that boost kick is just *chef's kiss*
Well done. Reminds me of the hidden speed stats they had on cores in gen 4. Thank you for your work in testing these thresholds and making the graphs. Im sure a lot of people will benefit from this info
@@A-0602 it was most observable on the Sombrero chest in AC4A. It would be faster than other cores, like the lahire, despite being heavier. Caused by a hidden Stat that I want to say was internally referred to a "aerodynamics" but I dont fully remember for sure.
I've used all types of builds, load-limits and boosters and thought the crazy boost drops were due to the boosters' load limits. It's nice to see some graphs showing it all laid out so plainly
been reading the boosters descriptions and it's been puzzling me about the Light-Medium-Heavy AC category. thank you for making it more understandable!!
I've never done anything but ultralight builds, so I didn't see this myself but I have noticed how friends running middle weights were way slower on boost that I'd have expected them to be despite being only modestly heavier
I have noticed some big drop in speed when I try to build my AC, and now I completely understand it. You have given me an insight to build something new and understand why some PVP ACs can moved differently than I expected.
I saw a chart for this on the first week of launch but it's good to see videos about it so more people are aware of this. It's pretty annoying to have your final loadout be sitting directly in the limbo zone between hard coded weight classes (especially for builds sitting on 75k weight) and knowing that 1000 weight could spike or drastically lower your booster speed. IMO Fromsoft should have made it so that booster speed should not have sharp dropoffs based on weight but instead legs should have a booster speed adj stat because they already have a load limit to enforce total weight. The existing system makes it especially weird for Melander legs which have 60k limit and weighs 18k so you can sit on 75k and the next 3k weight will have you scratching your head wondering why your speed is so greatly affected by minor weight changes. Not to mention a leg based booster speed adj stat would be much more transparent than the hidden speed to weight system and could be used as a way to further differentiate and balance legs. An alternative and simpler way to address this would have legs with a load limit + weight that does not fall within 75k to 80k. Builders who equip legs based on load limit alone would not notice these issues.
@@A-0602 all my builds fit in either nachreir or Firmeza legs and they gained like +20 speed on average. My first guess would be they shifted the first breakpoint over by 5000 weight.
Definitely noticed something was up when I would switch between my saved ac designs and 2 very similar as moved extremely differently and the only big weight changes were the weapons. Now I know! Thank you!
I knew it! Thanks so much for quantifying this, it seems like you've done a great job. I've run into this a lot when building mechs with the spring chicken legs, this is super useful information
You know, I think that this is a very soft way the designers were essentially implementing AC'S version of fast, mid, or fat rolling. Granted, i-frames aren't in this game, but certain speeds do allow you to dodge incoming damage by simply being faster than the tracking. The fast dodge seems to be hardest to actually achieve while most builds will likely fall somewhere in the mid dodge range and heavy tanks and whatnot are seemingly made to not really dodge at all, instead strafing or just remaining stationary Edit: You essentially said the same thing at the end, but yeah I think the cliffs are for a more definitive feeling of difference between the unofficial weight classes
Big balance patch dropped today - of which, one of the notes was "Adjusted the amount of change in various boost speeds relative to the total weight of the aircraft.". Feel like there's a good chance I may need to make an update video now.
@@bongosmcdongos4190 It would seem so. According to the translated patch notes: "The maximum speed of Assault Boost has been revised downward when the total weight of the AC is heavy."
I noticed this a couple of days ago playing with builds. Went from 350 booster speed to around 300 by just adding seemingly just a little extra weight.
I did notice the speed drop, but for me the discovery was more of a huge jump in speed once I decided to put together a new build under 75k. I had mostly used heavier gear earlier in the first play through, since I didn't really grab the boosters to capitalize on the speed, so when I swapped to Melanders for the legs for the new build, it was a real surprise to discover I felt so much quicker. Never went back above the threshold, because I would see the huge drop in numbers. Thanks for pinning down what it was!
Something I've really enjoyed seeing/hearing is all the different builds people have come up with. All the unique ways people have played through the game.
Ive noticed this (not quantitatively, but qualitatively) while using the lighter one of the quads; since it seems mostly everyone uses the heavier quads i wanted to make an aerial sniper with ransetsu-RF, Harris, or the light laser rifle, but part selection did mean that boost speed was all over the place for laser rifles since generator output means you either choose ephemera or the other part which has a high output but much heavier weight, and the weird boost dropoffs were so that i just gave up and made a hmmr/bad cook build and gridwalker Glad to see good quantitative data being made for this game, excellent work
Oh this is what was happening. I though for a bit that your generator’s weight mattered more than other weight, but I couldn’t reproduce it when I tried to circle back around and test it again.
It's a sad truth that I'm also having to wrestle with. At least if you're lighter, you can use some of the lightweight legs with their better jump performance.
I have literally never played any bipedal build over that soft load limit. Only tanks and tetra pods. I’ve never really noticed it 😂 Great video Great investigative work
When I was looking at Tetrapod legs in my first 60ish hours of the game, I thought they had a really low max speed because their speed was much lower than the lightweight bipeds I had been using and every adjustment seemed to barely do anything. Then, when I decided to try to make the lightest Tetrapod build I could, I noticed that they could actually get up to respectably high speeds, you just had to go well well below their load limit. That's how I found out about the 2nd dropoff.
As a Reverse Joint addict: while I did notice this trend the few times I used heavier weight builds, grounded boost speed often felt irrelevant anyways since I like to hop around like an idiot where gravity is faster than my boosters and quad hover is locked to a specific speed based on your booster anyways….
I wanted to make a sort of Glass Cannon Build that moved fast and hit hard but died from a few hits. But all my attempts at this gave me just a Medium Speed with Big Guns that died in a few hits. So you either make a Seedy Boi with a gun that slowly hurts the enemy, a Middle Man that covers all situations, or a Big Boi that can slap and be slapped. It's not a big deal but it's frustrating I can't make my ideal build because of it.
I've noticed the dropoff from switching from chicken legs to mind all reverse joints for my second fresh save playthrough. I always thought it was just a leg class thing. Nice to know this though.
What's funny for me is all my builds that I would consider lightweight are according to this graph just lighter middle weights. I can't imagine going much lighter than that due to stability concerns. AP to mobility is fine and all but getting staggered from a grenade splash or stray round is just a death sentence.
If I were calling the shots, I would have liked to see the lightweight slope shift a bit more to the right. That lightweight slope is really hard to climb.
I definitely noticed this on multiple builds, especially my Balam Tetrapod where I am trying to maintain heavy firepower but reducing the weight as much as I could. I would always cringe when I see my speed have a stark dropoff as I couldn't get my build to be sub-90k and often run into 100k.
Good catch, thats pretty interesting. I have a question since you are interested in hidden stats, its about ricochets and Ideal Range and Effective Range. Is there any (hidden) stat that determines ricochets?, normally i would assume that anything beyond Ideal Range caused a ricochet, but playing through PvE again i noticed that many enemies could be hit for full damage and no ricochet at pretty much Effective Range and only heavier enemies (like the armored quad ones) would need you to be at Ideal Range for bullets not to bounce. I was wondering how ricochets where implemented, are they something that its determined per enemy model (like, X = always ricochets because its heavy, but Y = can be hit with no bounces because its light) or if there is a particular hidden stat that makes bounces happen according to something like AP, or Armor, or weight, and if there is, is there a flat breakpoint (like here on the video) or is more progressive? (as in X amount of AP/Armor = -X% of effective Range to weapons attacking you... making it needed to get closer to hurt someone) This video of yours shows that there are breakpoints implemented by FROM to movement, and makes me wonder if they did the same for Ricochets, something like higher defense/weight/AP makes weapons less effective at range agains heavier builds, making it a better tradeoff i think for making a bigger mech. I dont know what you think about that?, is it simply a flat stat that determines bounces, or is something determined by parts and other stats. Just something i have been thinking about.
I've been theory-crafting this in my head for a long while since the game launched, but I can't find much more info other than what the games hints provide. Without a look at the code (outside of what I normally do), it'd be tough to say.
@@A-0602 I have been putting together a practical test to see if i can get some answers, but im away from home now and cant (probably for quite a while) test it myself. (and i have no capabilities to put a video either) Test pretty much starts with an AC with the lowes defense possible and try multiple weapons and see if they bounce from different distances (and same with medium and high defenses) and see if there is a difference, and if there is, then make changes to defensive values and see how they affect the effective range, maybe fixed distances or maybe % base. If there is no difference, now that i see your video, maybe try the different weight breakpoints and see if that affects anything. If nothing changes, then maybe its just a fixed stat of sorts, that determines ricochets without taking in count stats, and its just like a fixed property that FROM adds to certain enemies or parts.
Dont forget to look at the ideal weight for your boosters, it help a lot for me to see where approximately those changes will appear for a “light, mid, heavy” builds
Noticed this while working with the legs in the video & ever since I swapped to the HAL legs, my build finds itself comfortably within that slope most of the time. As a consequence of the slope, I've noticed that it's a lot less likely you're going to be getting boost speeds between 305 - 350 appx. As you only really have 5k worth of weight that will land you in that sweet spot with pretty much every booster, light builds will almost always be 350+ & the heavy builds will almost always be 305 appx or even less. I have a feeling this exists almost explicitly to force a difference between the speeds of lightweight & heavyweight builds. I do feel like they should have done this by making the "middleweight" section less of an extreme drop, maybe start more like 70k & end more like 85k or something.
Note: Your thrusters all also have recommended weight ranges. Exceeding the weight that your thrusters can handle will similarly tank your performance.
Once we're that heavy, we don't really need to worry about fluctuations at 75K. I haven't had much success with Heavy builds as of yet. Kudos for your efforts.
Youst so you guys know, i discovered 1h ago that the same applies to generators recharge rate, after some tuning i got my generator to dubbel in efficency than before when i youst fashioned it! The difference was huge, now i wonder how many builds i have done that fails in this category xD
There is literally a tool tip in the game that tells you about ideal weight and ideal EN loads. Those are the weights have maximum potential once you cross that threshold your drops become more significant
The Ideal Weight stat only impacts Quick Boost reload time, and not any other movement metrics. This means, for example, that ALULA is a very good overall performer even above its Ideal Weight because the base QB is already so low, though past a certain you're better off switching to SPD or NGI.
Yep. I've min maxed over and over between cores ,heads and weapons to stay at 350kmp with the Alula. Anything under 350 feels too slow to boost skate in a circle around attacks
My ac weighs around 62k with the added weight of the legs themselves but personally I'd still consider it a sub light build at the very least due to the damn speed of the thing. Though that credit probably goes to the boosters and not the weight
My standard loadout (Zimm, Ransetsu RF/Curtis, pulse blade, 6 direct missiles) comes out on the lower end of 70K, so it usually feels fairly zippy. I tried going lighter for more speed but the change wasn't that significan, however, when I went heavier, my builds start behaving like they were wading through tar. I thought it was some hidden "each booster has an different ideal weight range" thing. Glad to know the real reason for this.
This video put me over 1K subs last night. Getting to 1K subs has been a personal goal of mine for the past 8 months or so. Thanks everyone - you've made me a happy robot today.
I was wondering why my medium builds were so slow, I always try to get as close to my EN and weight load limits otherwise I feel like I'm leaving potential firepower on the table, but yeah I must be putting my medium builds just barely into the heavy AC weight class due to equipping the heaviest weapons I can
I know you need to keep some extra EN capacity open so your stamina can recover faster. The larger the gap is between your stamina capacity and your stamina recovery the more EN capacity you should leave open. The extra EN goes into stamina recovery. The first generator you can buy, the Ling-Tai, has 2000 capacity and 2000 recovery. Because of this it kind of tricks new players into thinking they can get away with using every point of EN capacity they own. It is interesting that weight has a mechanic like this as well.
The wheelchair legs average 370 regardless of weapons or the number shown in menu, just put them on and turn on your boosters then check your speed i assure you you’ll be doing over 350 whatever weapons and body equipped
Would you mind looking at this curve for Assault Boost? Buerzels on quads and heavies seem really overtuned and I'm curious if this curve doesn't exist there or is much less pronounced.
yet another way that light weights get the shaft, the plateu is tiny and reaching it is unrealistic, so pretty much every light weight build is on the slope, unlike middle or heavy which only have steep roll offs at major break points.
"There is obviously more to an AC than being fast" No there isn't 😎, as an old saying in WuXia story "Martial arts are never too tough to break but too fast."
Wait, how do you even keep an AC below 40k weight? Like, I feel like I'm already doing an extremely light Nachtreiher build, but I'm already at 62k weight.
ive been operating at sub 280 boost speed, and seem to be doing fine dodging most boss attack at around middle range. the only boss ive needed to equip a different type of booster for is the ibis: and that was only because i needed longer lasting quick boosts. this is still very good information to know, and probably why some of my lighter builds werent doing so good...
Can someone explain why people are obsessed with reverse-joint builds that are really heavy or ultra light? Like bipedal is faster than heavy reverse-joint builds and does more damage than light reverse joint builds
Don’t know what dark magic I conjured but I’ve made a medium sized bipedal mech that recharges at least half it’s energy before touching the ground instructions not clear
Man I knew there was something weird going on. I wonder if the same thing applies to supply efficiency? There might be an optimal output gap to have as well
Chrightt talked some about it on his generators video (and i think touched on it on the energy weapons too) and how extra energy left is added to the regeneration, so its always nice to not max out energy supply either, and how this was most efficient with some generators than others (making some slower regeneration generators pretty decent, since they have a high supply and since you dont max them out easily, even if they regenerate less you still add all the extra capacity that you are not using to said lower regeneration)
Now, breakpoints per se, like on this video, havent noticed on energy, it seems to be determined only by output/used/not used, but could be one hidden somewhere.
I've been trying to figure that out myself. Barring the funny Institute-made generators or Arquebus's ultra-specialized energy weapon-specced pieces, I do notice the quick recovery models like the LING-TAI really can't carry much total energy load.
The HOKUSHI feels good to use overall on a middleweight, but I'd suggest the VP-20C if you're using energy weapons.
Yeah, it is certainly rather odd. If it were up to me, I don't think I would have made the slopes so drastic.
700 views and one of em is Vaati, gotta love it
@@Darkja Yeah, I do think regeneration is a stat that have a lot of diminishing returns tho. Like, a 100 regen and 2000 regen is a whole world of difference, but a 2000 and 4000 regen difference might not feel that big.
Love the fact that this whole game has caused a significant chunk of the player base to become engineers trying to figure out how their own ACs work
This is normal AC Player behavior. I've done my own personal research into the nitty gritty of the game too
The satisfaction of making a good af ac by yourself is something else
Lemme help a lot of people. If your AC is light, go for QB reload speed. If your heavy go for QB jet duration.
Also, boosters have an ideal qb weight stat, which is the weight above which your qb performance will be compromised. Check that your actual weight and qb ideal weight aren't too far apart.
100% This. That jet duration can make a huge difference for our heavy boys
Now THIS is some help (alongside the video). Thought my gills boosters were flat out dog water, but it just so seems to be my super-heavy bipedal build itself to be the problem😅
@@nicolascurra4254 the gills have a singular goal. To go up really fast. Pair with reverse joints and missiles to stay above someone always.
@@isaacmarcucci3777 yeah, i see. What im looking for is a booster with decent stats (can sacrifice melee quick boost, not needed) to keep up with as many enemy builds as possible
I've noticed this, but not as keenly as you have. As you said, I use primarily lighter legs so I'm often over burdened well before hitting the 75k soft cap. But those few builds where I do go over, I notice the sudden drop in booster speed and often attempt to mitigate it.
I assumed this limit was tied the QB ideal weight limit (that it influences QB reload time and weight/speed penalty), but never dug into the numbers beyond "that's slower than I'd like, let's lighten the load"
Honestly, my first thought was that it was something funky with underweighting the legs load limit (it's been done like that in the past). The data pointed to a much simpler answer though.
I did think my heavier chicken leg and mind beta builds were way too sensitive to weight compared to other reverse joints, but putting this feeling into a graph is a lot better than just having a hunch that something's wrong. Good job.
Reverse joint jumpy legs are weird overall. They have pitiful weight limits and poor stability to boot while also being slower than bipeds! You're better off using hopping and boosting as your main mode of movement instead of grounded boosting during combat since you'll constantly throw off the enemy aim - that's where they shine.
@@kirbyis4ever I really can't agree with reverse joints being slower than bipeds. Kasuar ground QBs are something else.
And the weight limits are not a big deal. Even Kasuar's strict limits were enough for me the entire game. And even Mind Beta can support all of your extravagant pure dps builds for S ranking and stuff. You aren't ever required to use the chicken legs.
P.S. Hell, I could almost cram Zimmermans and Songbirds on a Kasuar platform with the overburden OS upgrade and it was still really fast despite going a kilo over the limit.
I have similar feelings about quads. There high weight makes it really hard to make them fast. I only have one quad build that manages to stay above 75K
@@DIMOHA25 I meant in a drag race, no quickboosting, their boost speed is generally beaten by a biped. If you use them as intended with their superior jumps they blow bipeds out the water for speed! It comes at great cost though.
@@A-0602 I have a hard time enjoying the quads myself. Upper middle-to-heavyweight mechs feel extremely sluggish (I can't play slower than 300m/s boost speed) so I find it's generally most enjoyable to just stick to bipedal or reverse-joint. Getting used to reverse-joint was a bit of a challenge but I've found myself loving them more and more with time.
Plus, that boost kick is just *chef's kiss*
Subtle, but worth knowing.
I'll definitely be keeping these tips in mind when I'm choosing a booster for any heavier ACs.
After I noticed this - all of my mid weight builds suddenly all became 75K weight lol
@@A-0602 Bro really went on a diet after making a discovery.
Well done. Reminds me of the hidden speed stats they had on cores in gen 4. Thank you for your work in testing these thresholds and making the graphs. Im sure a lot of people will benefit from this info
I actually didn't know that about gen4 cores - I'll have to check that out sometime
@@A-0602 it was most observable on the Sombrero chest in AC4A. It would be faster than other cores, like the lahire, despite being heavier. Caused by a hidden Stat that I want to say was internally referred to a "aerodynamics" but I dont fully remember for sure.
My ac always sits around 76k to 79k and i was wondering why my speed was jumping around so much, thank you a ton for doing research!
Love this channel,
because he’s talking about a new AC game but the mic quality makes it sound like 2012 gametheory video
It makes it sound like I'm watching a tutorial on a VCR.
You know, I was thinking of upgrading my mic for a while now but I keep getting these comments. Figure at this point, I just run with it.
@@A-0602 run with it, it gives charm to your videos
This
Who cares? It's good info
I've used all types of builds, load-limits and boosters and thought the crazy boost drops were due to the boosters' load limits. It's nice to see some graphs showing it all laid out so plainly
been reading the boosters descriptions and it's been puzzling me about the Light-Medium-Heavy AC category. thank you for making it more understandable!!
Talk about informational, I never really noticed *this* much about speed-weight relations, so thank you. Also that ACVD theme in the back goes hard
I've never done anything but ultralight builds, so I didn't see this myself but I have noticed how friends running middle weights were way slower on boost that I'd have expected them to be despite being only modestly heavier
I have noticed some big drop in speed when I try to build my AC, and now I completely understand it. You have given me an insight to build something new and understand why some PVP ACs can moved differently than I expected.
I've noticed this! Thank you for graphing it out, its *super* helpful.
Damn. I recently that leg choice had a significant effect on boost speed but I had no idea why. Great work with this!
this needs more views. only video I could find explaining what I was noticing!
Thanks man!
I saw a chart for this on the first week of launch but it's good to see videos about it so more people are aware of this. It's pretty annoying to have your final loadout be sitting directly in the limbo zone between hard coded weight classes (especially for builds sitting on 75k weight) and knowing that 1000 weight could spike or drastically lower your booster speed.
IMO Fromsoft should have made it so that booster speed should not have sharp dropoffs based on weight but instead legs should have a booster speed adj stat because they already have a load limit to enforce total weight. The existing system makes it especially weird for Melander legs which have 60k limit and weighs 18k so you can sit on 75k and the next 3k weight will have you scratching your head wondering why your speed is so greatly affected by minor weight changes. Not to mention a leg based booster speed adj stat would be much more transparent than the hidden speed to weight system and could be used as a way to further differentiate and balance legs.
An alternative and simpler way to address this would have legs with a load limit + weight that does not fall within 75k to 80k. Builders who equip legs based on load limit alone would not notice these issues.
Oh yeah, only takes a little bit for that speed to start tanking
Looks like the recent patch just shifted these thresholds and possibly the slopes. Light builds are faster overall as a result.
Yeah - Hopefully I can get out an update video quickly. I feel like I have egg on my face whenever FromSoft patches something
@@A-0602 all my builds fit in either nachreir or Firmeza legs and they gained like +20 speed on average. My first guess would be they shifted the first breakpoint over by 5000 weight.
@@gameguy301 Very encouraging for all the lightweight folks in the comment section.
Definitely noticed something was up when I would switch between my saved ac designs and 2 very similar as moved extremely differently and the only big weight changes were the weapons. Now I know! Thank you!
oh hey, good eye catching that, and thanks for sharing the finding :D
My pleasure, only wish I noticed this sooner.
This helped a lot! Wish i saved this vid the first time cause it took me forever to fid it again. Subbed!
Glad you found me again. Welcome aboard!
I knew it! Thanks so much for quantifying this, it seems like you've done a great job. I've run into this a lot when building mechs with the spring chicken legs, this is super useful information
You are most welcome. Glad to see another non-biped enjoyer out there.
You know, I think that this is a very soft way the designers were essentially implementing AC'S version of fast, mid, or fat rolling. Granted, i-frames aren't in this game, but certain speeds do allow you to dodge incoming damage by simply being faster than the tracking. The fast dodge seems to be hardest to actually achieve while most builds will likely fall somewhere in the mid dodge range and heavy tanks and whatnot are seemingly made to not really dodge at all, instead strafing or just remaining stationary
Edit: You essentially said the same thing at the end, but yeah I think the cliffs are for a more definitive feeling of difference between the unofficial weight classes
Well said
Big balance patch dropped today - of which, one of the notes was "Adjusted the amount of change in various boost speeds relative to the total weight of the aircraft.". Feel like there's a good chance I may need to make an update video now.
Based on a 5 min quick glance - I don't think the 75K cliff has moved, but somethings may have changed for our lightweight friends.
I had heard heavyweights are slower in overboost now, is that correct?
@@bongosmcdongos4190 It would seem so. According to the translated patch notes: "The maximum speed of Assault Boost has been revised downward when the total weight of the AC is heavy."
Thanks! I’ve been exploring this and love your descriptive analysis!
Thanks man, I appreciate it
Thanks for mathing this out, really useful stuff.
Just wish I hadn't bothered to be quite this thorough - Took me several nights to confirm the data across all boosters.
Incredibly helpful. Thanks chief
I noticed this a couple of days ago playing with builds. Went from 350 booster speed to around 300 by just adding seemingly just a little extra weight.
I did notice the speed drop, but for me the discovery was more of a huge jump in speed once I decided to put together a new build under 75k. I had mostly used heavier gear earlier in the first play through, since I didn't really grab the boosters to capitalize on the speed, so when I swapped to Melanders for the legs for the new build, it was a real surprise to discover I felt so much quicker. Never went back above the threshold, because I would see the huge drop in numbers. Thanks for pinning down what it was!
Something I've really enjoyed seeing/hearing is all the different builds people have come up with. All the unique ways people have played through the game.
Ive noticed this (not quantitatively, but qualitatively) while using the lighter one of the quads; since it seems mostly everyone uses the heavier quads i wanted to make an aerial sniper with ransetsu-RF, Harris, or the light laser rifle, but part selection did mean that boost speed was all over the place for laser rifles since generator output means you either choose ephemera or the other part which has a high output but much heavier weight, and the weird boost dropoffs were so that i just gave up and made a hmmr/bad cook build and gridwalker
Glad to see good quantitative data being made for this game, excellent work
My pleasure - I spot a fellow person of science right here ^
AC wouldnt be AC without hidden numbers. Keep up the excellent work!
They did a good job simplifying things ... but some things never change
Oh this is what was happening. I though for a bit that your generator’s weight mattered more than other weight, but I couldn’t reproduce it when I tried to circle back around and test it again.
Great video! Had very useful info shown in a concise manner.
And here I thought my Kasuar-legged was ultralight, turns out I'm solidly in middleweight
It's a sad truth that I'm also having to wrestle with. At least if you're lighter, you can use some of the lightweight legs with their better jump performance.
I have literally never played any bipedal build over that soft load limit.
Only tanks and tetra pods. I’ve never really noticed it 😂
Great video
Great investigative work
this is the equivalent of light roll midroll and fatroll in dark souls
I knew something was going on because switching weapons altered my quick boosting dramatically after some mysterious number.
When I was looking at Tetrapod legs in my first 60ish hours of the game, I thought they had a really low max speed because their speed was much lower than the lightweight bipeds I had been using and every adjustment seemed to barely do anything. Then, when I decided to try to make the lightest Tetrapod build I could, I noticed that they could actually get up to respectably high speeds, you just had to go well well below their load limit. That's how I found out about the 2nd dropoff.
Great minds think alike! I love my "light" quad
Love this game, the entire community doing math and engineering their acs its just nuts
It's a good place to be!
I've never noticed this because I have always tried to go for a slightly lighter AC at just below 70k or below, but it is good to know.
very nice, love the ACVD music as well, good pick!
OOOOO THAT AC5 MUSIC BRINGS ME BACK!
Good ear my friend
Noticed this when i tried using my heavy legs while pushing its weight limits than my usual light set of weapons
Nice Man
@@A-0602 of course i didnt do the math, just thought it's just bad loadout, or something that hits the boosters ideal weight
Aight checking all my build weights now
I had seen the big drops, but I had figured it was tied to ideal booster weight or amount of load limit remaining. Good to know though!
My first thoughts as well, especially considering that underweighting was a thing in the earlier gens.
I definitely noticed this a couple times when making a mech that was about 75k in weight. I remember thinking the difference was a bit ridiculous
As a Reverse Joint addict: while I did notice this trend the few times I used heavier weight builds, grounded boost speed often felt irrelevant anyways since I like to hop around like an idiot where gravity is faster than my boosters and quad hover is locked to a specific speed based on your booster anyways….
I wanted to make a sort of Glass Cannon Build that moved fast and hit hard but died from a few hits.
But all my attempts at this gave me just a Medium Speed with Big Guns that died in a few hits.
So you either make a Seedy Boi with a gun that slowly hurts the enemy, a Middle Man that covers all situations, or a Big Boi that can slap and be slapped.
It's not a big deal but it's frustrating I can't make my ideal build because of it.
I've noticed the dropoff from switching from chicken legs to mind all reverse joints for my second fresh save playthrough. I always thought it was just a leg class thing.
Nice to know this though.
That explains why I love VP-422 so much. Besides looking like MLL-MX/EDGE from Gen 3 that is.
What's funny for me is all my builds that I would consider lightweight are according to this graph just lighter middle weights.
I can't imagine going much lighter than that due to stability concerns. AP to mobility is fine and all but getting staggered from a grenade splash or stray round is just a death sentence.
If I were calling the shots, I would have liked to see the lightweight slope shift a bit more to the right. That lightweight slope is really hard to climb.
I definitely noticed this on multiple builds, especially my Balam Tetrapod where I am trying to maintain heavy firepower but reducing the weight as much as I could. I would always cringe when I see my speed have a stark dropoff as I couldn't get my build to be sub-90k and often run into 100k.
Good catch, thats pretty interesting.
I have a question since you are interested in hidden stats, its about ricochets and Ideal Range and Effective Range.
Is there any (hidden) stat that determines ricochets?, normally i would assume that anything beyond Ideal Range caused a ricochet, but playing through PvE again i noticed that many enemies could be hit for full damage and no ricochet at pretty much Effective Range and only heavier enemies (like the armored quad ones) would need you to be at Ideal Range for bullets not to bounce.
I was wondering how ricochets where implemented, are they something that its determined per enemy model (like, X = always ricochets because its heavy, but Y = can be hit with no bounces because its light) or if there is a particular hidden stat that makes bounces happen according to something like AP, or Armor, or weight, and if there is, is there a flat breakpoint (like here on the video) or is more progressive? (as in X amount of AP/Armor = -X% of effective Range to weapons attacking you... making it needed to get closer to hurt someone)
This video of yours shows that there are breakpoints implemented by FROM to movement, and makes me wonder if they did the same for Ricochets, something like higher defense/weight/AP makes weapons less effective at range agains heavier builds, making it a better tradeoff i think for making a bigger mech.
I dont know what you think about that?, is it simply a flat stat that determines bounces, or is something determined by parts and other stats. Just something i have been thinking about.
I've been theory-crafting this in my head for a long while since the game launched, but I can't find much more info other than what the games hints provide. Without a look at the code (outside of what I normally do), it'd be tough to say.
@@A-0602 I have been putting together a practical test to see if i can get some answers, but im away from home now and cant (probably for quite a while) test it myself. (and i have no capabilities to put a video either)
Test pretty much starts with an AC with the lowes defense possible and try multiple weapons and see if they bounce from different distances (and same with medium and high defenses) and see if there is a difference, and if there is, then make changes to defensive values and see how they affect the effective range, maybe fixed distances or maybe % base.
If there is no difference, now that i see your video, maybe try the different weight breakpoints and see if that affects anything.
If nothing changes, then maybe its just a fixed stat of sorts, that determines ricochets without taking in count stats, and its just like a fixed property that FROM adds to certain enemies or parts.
Me with my 401 boost speed build: "hah get slowed, nerd"
the man sound like lightning mcqueen saying pull off your skin
Dont forget to look at the ideal weight for your boosters, it help a lot for me to see where approximately those changes will appear for a “light, mid, heavy” builds
based choice to use Perfect Rose. Thanks for the video!
You know your AC OSTs
I was originally going to use Steps, but Perfect Rose seemed more fitting.
I normally build my ac around the attitude stability, making sure it never drops below 75 so it also keeps my speed at a certain range too
100% That stability stat is so important IMO
I noticed the speed tanking hard but I didn't do any math to prove it. I just adjusted stuff until the speed came back up.
Noticed this while working with the legs in the video & ever since I swapped to the HAL legs, my build finds itself comfortably within that slope most of the time. As a consequence of the slope, I've noticed that it's a lot less likely you're going to be getting boost speeds between 305 - 350 appx. As you only really have 5k worth of weight that will land you in that sweet spot with pretty much every booster, light builds will almost always be 350+ & the heavy builds will almost always be 305 appx or even less. I have a feeling this exists almost explicitly to force a difference between the speeds of lightweight & heavyweight builds. I do feel like they should have done this by making the "middleweight" section less of an extreme drop, maybe start more like 70k & end more like 85k or something.
Alright i hear you, counterpoint, more fire power
Note: Your thrusters all also have recommended weight ranges. Exceeding the weight that your thrusters can handle will similarly tank your performance.
I only ever make lighter builds since most are melee focused. Good to know this if I ever feel like making a heavier build! Thank you!
Great video! try to turn off HDR while recording so the video does not look washed out(i know its tedious to do so).
Can't imagine a light build near 40k. What do you even put on it, a dagger and a pistol with the weakest generator?
The legs that Snail uses on his mech are my favourite so I use those and I felt so slow! But I assumed it was because I was nearing 100k in weight.
Once we're that heavy, we don't really need to worry about fluctuations at 75K. I haven't had much success with Heavy builds as of yet. Kudos for your efforts.
Youst so you guys know, i discovered 1h ago that the same applies to generators recharge rate, after some tuning i got my generator to dubbel in efficency than before when i youst fashioned it! The difference was huge, now i wonder how many builds i have done that fails in this category xD
woah this is awesome, thanks for sharing!
There is literally a tool tip in the game that tells you about ideal weight and ideal EN loads. Those are the weights have maximum potential once you cross that threshold your drops become more significant
The Ideal Weight stat only impacts Quick Boost reload time, and not any other movement metrics. This means, for example, that ALULA is a very good overall performer even above its Ideal Weight because the base QB is already so low, though past a certain you're better off switching to SPD or NGI.
Yep. I've min maxed over and over between cores ,heads and weapons to stay at 350kmp with the Alula. Anything under 350 feels too slow to boost skate in a circle around attacks
My ac weighs around 62k with the added weight of the legs themselves but personally I'd still consider it a sub light build at the very least due to the damn speed of the thing. Though that credit probably goes to the boosters and not the weight
My standard loadout (Zimm, Ransetsu RF/Curtis, pulse blade, 6 direct missiles) comes out on the lower end of 70K, so it usually feels fairly zippy. I tried going lighter for more speed but the change wasn't that significan, however, when I went heavier, my builds start behaving like they were wading through tar.
I thought it was some hidden "each booster has an different ideal weight range" thing. Glad to know the real reason for this.
By the way your boosters do have an ideal weight too. However It affects the qb reload speed not the thrust.
Very intresting good job
Aw heel naw they put fat rolling in the robot game 💀
Making a 75k weight double Skillerman build now
This video put me over 1K subs last night. Getting to 1K subs has been a personal goal of mine for the past 8 months or so. Thanks everyone - you've made me a happy robot today.
the audio quality makes it sound like an instructional video in a factory, also wtf is up with the weight
I was wondering why my medium builds were so slow, I always try to get as close to my EN and weight load limits otherwise I feel like I'm leaving potential firepower on the table, but yeah I must be putting my medium builds just barely into the heavy AC weight class due to equipping the heaviest weapons I can
if you have spare EN load left over your energy will recharge faster
I know you need to keep some extra EN capacity open so your stamina can recover faster. The larger the gap is between your stamina capacity and your stamina recovery the more EN capacity you should leave open. The extra EN goes into stamina recovery. The first generator you can buy, the Ling-Tai, has 2000 capacity and 2000 recovery. Because of this it kind of tricks new players into thinking they can get away with using every point of EN capacity they own.
It is interesting that weight has a mechanic like this as well.
It can be a bit misleading - lots of those "midweight" looking legs can quickly push you into the heavy category
Once i got the spring chicken legs ive never tried anything else lmao. I build everything around keeping them
Great awesome. Man this game is so detailed. Currently sitting at 76000 for my boost speed build. Gonna switch to the smaller generator :)
Exactly the kind of optimization I was hoping for!
@@A-0602 thankyou for your analysis greatly appreciated!!!
So the only usable build that can be considered light is firmeza legs with stun pistols and nothing else..
all my builds are right in that 70-80k spot where the speed drops off,
why from soft, there was no reason to do this...
The wheelchair legs average 370 regardless of weapons or the number shown in menu, just put them on and turn on your boosters then check your speed i assure you you’ll be doing over 350 whatever weapons and body equipped
Nice find!
Would you mind looking at this curve for Assault Boost? Buerzels on quads and heavies seem really overtuned and I'm curious if this curve doesn't exist there or is much less pronounced.
I have a suspicion that this is not going to be the same with every booster.
yet another way that light weights get the shaft, the plateu is tiny and reaching it is unrealistic, so pretty much every light weight build is on the slope, unlike middle or heavy which only have steep roll offs at major break points.
Nice! Thank you
"There is obviously more to an AC than being fast"
No there isn't 😎, as an old saying in WuXia story "Martial arts are never too tough to break but too fast."
i had no idea you could even reach 40k weight
It's not a very good build. No weapons, no stability, lol
Wanted to capture the edge cases though
Wait, how do you even keep an AC below 40k weight?
Like, I feel like I'm already doing an extremely light Nachtreiher build, but I'm already at 62k weight.
It does feel impossible doesn't it? I think I may try my luck and see just how much it takes to get there
never went past the lgiht leggs before
TL;DR Pay attention to "QB reload ideal weight" If you are over, you suffer a big penalty.
The SPD doesn't have enough lift to be the best booster. The NGI-001 is the best booster.
That booster is just too good in all the right categories.
I also have started gaining an appreciation for the NGI-001, but figured the SPD made the most sense for the vid.
ive been operating at sub 280 boost speed, and seem to be doing fine dodging most boss attack at around middle range.
the only boss ive needed to equip a different type of booster for is the ibis: and that was only because i needed longer lasting quick boosts.
this is still very good information to know, and probably why some of my lighter builds werent doing so good...
middleweight bipedal player here.... XD
Can someone explain why people are obsessed with reverse-joint builds that are really heavy or ultra light?
Like bipedal is faster than heavy reverse-joint builds and does more damage than light reverse joint builds
Don’t know what dark magic I conjured but I’ve made a medium sized bipedal mech that recharges at least half it’s energy before touching the ground instructions not clear
Firmza legs baby.