Andy, this is evergreen information and video. I think the hollow bottom end of the shaft explains some of the rudder problems other boat owners, I know, have had. I will have to watch the rest of the series.
Hi Andy, I have learned so much from watching all your videos it has helped with my project, looking forward to seeing how the rudder is finished, keep up the good work.
Hi Andy, I started repairing a rudder today, also full of water a rotten foam and remembered you had a series on that subject so I decided to watch again to see if I would pick a few tips and tricks. This is a small world, the rudder I'm fixing is also from a Freedom 35! However, this one if from a lifting keel version of that boat and built in the UK I think, not from the US. The rudder is shorter and wider and has ears welded to the rudder post which is stainless steel. What caused the problem was a previous repair done so poorly that the glass wasn't completely wetted and it just delaminated, allowing water to get into the rudder.
My rudder froze and split over the winter, so I'm in repair mode. It's a learning process and appreciate your videos. The rudder which has been known to leak, so owners typically drill some drain holes on haul out for the winter and typically see some water come out then they'll do a patch in spring. I can't pull the rudder at the yard I'm at so I'm looking to just repair the bottom where it cracked. The difficult part of this is the SS external strapping they put over the rudder. It's not bolted it's pinned on and the pins are pounded over and mushroomed to stay in place. This makes it secure, but also makes for a lot of water entry points and difficult to repair. The good news is they really over built it and it shows no other signs of stress. If you have a second, any quick points on this would be appreciated. Otherwise I'm sure there is more to learn on your other videos.
Indeed this is a rudder that I would not use at all. It's not seaworthy. I will recommend strengthening it. Glad you uploaded a video about rudders. I am also doing a job about a rudder right now.
Pouring Foam Part II really shows how easy it is to pour it esp. in multiple pours. Didn't know it was that simple. Luckily the #16 doesn't expand that much compared to lighter versions. Thanks so much. Bill
I think if I had to replace a bad rudder on an old boat, I'd probably re-design it entirely. Old cruiser-design rudders like that can be improved with modern materials to give you more bite if you're in bad waves/weather, and more efficiency at lower speeds/reverse, etc... Just replacing it seems like almost as much work as just making a new rudder shape entirely.
That Fein "Multimaster tool is AWESOME for many applications!!! I Love your Workshop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!!!!! What I could accomplish with that kind of workspace!!!!!!..... Your's Are Great videos!!!! Originally, that foam was perhaps the same as the often seen "Blue"(Dow) or "Pink"(Owens Corning) Styrene foam-board insulation for Home insulation. It has low density, and is easily shaped, but over time, it can degrade with exposure to the Ultraviolet sunlight, and continual exposure to moisture (submersion). I'd like to know more about the high density "foams" you mentioned being commonly used in Marine applications!...
Most rebuilders (amateur) I've spoken to "split" the rudder rather than taking a section out of the side to remove the foam; is there a reason not to do that? I suspect your way is much easier to shape. Thanks, your videos are very informative.
If you were cutting along the trailing edge again, would you consider laying down a block of wood or foam on the rudder as a 'depth stop' for the Fein? Start by placing the edge of the cutting tool on the surface to be cut, measure up to the body of the tool, find/make a block the appropriate thickness to allow only the amount of blade protrusion as necessary to cut to the desired depth. Does that make sense? Save your fingers!
Hi Andy I enjoy watching your videos I would like to thank you for taking the time. I seen in one of your videos you mentioned something about mentioning you r video when ordering supplies this will help ratings or something I don't remember but I'd like to help so could you walk me thru on what you were talking about id gladly help out thanks again
I started my career in aircraft maintenance we make our cut than lay Dry Ice on the panel. after you can just lift sink off vinegar we remove the smell,l if you put dry ice on other side foam will put right out its also cleaner
I have to replace the aluminum rudder stockpost on a 50' fiberglass sailboat due to corrosion. I am thinking of cutting the blade open like Andy has done, carving out the foam and old post. Then I will insert the new post, fill with PVC foam and glass over. Do you think is it going to be almost as much work as just making a new rudder entirely from scratch ? Any suggestions on how to make a mold of the old blade ?
Andy do you think you could make a tutorial on how to build a rudder from scratch? Possibly one with foam and one without. Thanks Keep up the great work!
Hi I am replacing the rudder blade and have cut out the blade. The width of the hole is approximately one inch on either side of the shaft and blades. When I put in the new shaft, what would you use around it before glassing in the top?
Unfortunately my rudder broke off so I plan to build a form, position my new rudder stock in it's proper place and fill with 8# two part foam, plane and sure form it to a NACA 0015 foil and glass and graphite it. Does that sound like my best bet?
That's a master lesson how NOT to build a rudder. I think the foam was poured in after the skins were bonded together, purely to stiffen the skins. The rudder shaft should've had at least one web at the bottom and top, to transfer torque loads to the rudder blade. They should be mechanically fastened or bonded to the outer skins, again to transfer torque. Frankly, I'm amazed the rudder was still attached to the boat.
At 14:19 it seems clear enough that the stock or shaft of the rudder was fiberglassed to one side of the rudder and I presume that the roughing up of the shaft along its length plus a few indentations would see to the requirement of both the rudder not slipping down, or the torque being transmitted from the shaft to the rudder. I personally would have welded two webs to that shaft to make it more sound and then and only then fiberglass it to the shell of the rudder. It is interesting that if the gentle man cut the other side of the rudder instead of the one he did, he would have found difficulty to raise the shell up. Also rather than drill many holes first, he should have drilled only one hole in the shell and applied compressed air through one hole and so the lifting and separating of the shell from the foam would be more efficient. The question remains, how did he know which side of the rudder the stock was fiberglassed to?
Thanks for the video! doing same for my little 22' Swanson Dart Daysailer called Grace. The water leaked in where the fibreglass joins the rudder post around the top. Any suggestions on how to adhere the epoxy to the ss post? ie resin to metal as the previous version failed. thanks, Richard
Since the diver just determined that my rudder on 1968 bristol 24 had fell off, I assumed it was still there as i had to dredge bucket back since the boat was pulling to one side, however discovered that it is no longer with the boat, what are my options since i don't know the size of it, thanks
I'm building myself and plan a steel plate rudder. After this I don't want lumber and certainly not foam. That foam rudder was probably built in China. If you want it done right do it yourself or in a boat yard where you can visit and look and be sure it's done well.
I can't believe there aren't any flanges on the rudder stock..... and that is a tube and not solid stock. My little 26 foot Fin Keel racer has a 1 3/8" solid stainless stock with flanges equally spaced along the length of the approximately four foot rudder..... What brand is that from?
Can you tell me what brand of boat this was off of so the people know what the builder is doing, it would go a long way for people to know who is not doing things the right way. Also if this boat was in the middle of the ocean The rudder could have just fallen off and floated away leaving the owner with only one that might or might not have worked.
The boat is a Freedom35. The issue with the rudder isn't so much of a safety issue (meaning poor construction), but more of a minor design flaw which resulted in the saturated core. The strength and overall design of their boats is actually top notch. This was just an example of how one seemingly minor detail in the design resulted in a larger issue. Of course, it also could have been something as simple as a final step of the building process was overlooked (someone on the assembly line forgot to plug / cap the top of the post). Hard to say for sure :-)
I need to rebuild a rudder from scratch. I have found a lot of info on making a rudder from wood but, not a lot on a foam core rudder from scratch. i guess all i really need is a solid piece of 16lb foam to shape and then lay glass on it? I would use Wood but, i cant bring myself to lay glass over beautiful wood.
Thanks for the quick response! I really like watching your videos!! I should have mentioned its a tiller rudder. to you think i should embed a 2x6 into the foam for some added strength for the tiller and pin mounts?
+Pork Chop I think the best way to approach this would be to find a diagram on how they were built originally and copy it the best you can (maybe add some additional strength here and there)..
I am rebuilding a swing keel. Pouring the lead this week then shaping with foam then glassing. Is the blue insulation foam used in construction suitable? It says it is very resistant to water. I have selected it for that reason and it seems easy to shape. I want a good foil shape instead of the barely foil shaped keel from the factory. BTW, your vids have been a great help in my project, thank you.
Hey Duane, sorry for the late response.. The general foam from the big box stores will melt when the resin is applied. What you're looking for is a urethane foam panel. They make sheets of this that can be purchased from composite retailers, but you won't find anything like that from Lowe's, Home Depot, etc...Hope this helps!
BoatworksToday If you use Epoxy instead of Polyester resin, it can work with hardware store foam. Just run a test sample before committing to a large project with them. I had one of those $88 Kool boats that they sold in the 1970's. It was made of expanded polystyrene beads. The fiberglass kit that was sold for it (by Sea Snark) used epoxy (it had that familiar popcorny smell)
To me it begs the question of why have a foam or anything filled rudder...it is not an aeroplane in which weight is such an issue just weld some steel or stainless steel plate onto the rudder post and all your troubles will melt into the past....sure you can even paint it!
BoatworksToday Ha Ha That's OK I was just going to avoid ever buying that brand of boat. That rudder says a lot about the quality of the boat in general. Great set of videos buy the way. I really wish I would have gotten into your line of work when I was younger. I like working with my hands and I'm picky about doing things right. You have a good setup and I hope you are prosperous.
I don’t understand why webs weren’t welded to the cone if not in the design then by the owner before the foam I could never go to Sea thinking that cone could spin free!
I think it was unnecessary to cut this open and do a replacement core on this particular rudder. Simply draining it and vacuuming out the water and allowing it to dry. Fix any cracks then refilling holes with epoxy would extend the life of a neutral buoyant cored rudder especially if the rudder uses a composite stock which this rudder has. So no water leaked in through the rudder surface. That points to a simple drain and plug repair. If the water came in through the post it means the owner partially sank the boat far enough to flood the rudder. Rebuild unnecessary.
a proper repair would have addressed the poor design of the rudder. Common sense tells us that the post should have some sort of fingers or such. Just because the rudder worked does not mean it was build right or will continue to work. Fingers or spokes should have been added.
Andy, this is evergreen information and video. I think the hollow bottom end of the shaft explains some of the rudder problems other boat owners, I know, have had. I will have to watch the rest of the series.
So glad you are showing this project. I was planning on re-coring the rudder of my boat over the winter break. Look forward to seeing this process!
Hi Andy, I have learned so much from watching all your videos it has helped with my project, looking forward to seeing how the rudder is finished, keep up the good work.
Hi Andy, I started repairing a rudder today, also full of water a rotten foam and remembered you had a series on that subject so I decided to watch again to see if I would pick a few tips and tricks. This is a small world, the rudder I'm fixing is also from a Freedom 35! However, this one if from a lifting keel version of that boat and built in the UK I think, not from the US. The rudder is shorter and wider and has ears welded to the rudder post which is stainless steel. What caused the problem was a previous repair done so poorly that the glass wasn't completely wetted and it just delaminated, allowing water to get into the rudder.
Great instructive video. Can't wait for the next part to see the reconstruction.
Thanks for the complete series on this, lots of helpful experience shared. I'm still looking for a centerboard or rudder build from new...
This channel is so underrated. Its a good show just for the show. But the content is awesome 2
My rudder froze and split over the winter, so I'm in repair mode. It's a learning process and appreciate your videos. The rudder which has been known to leak, so owners typically drill some drain holes on haul out for the winter and typically see some water come out then they'll do a patch in spring. I can't pull the rudder at the yard I'm at so I'm looking to just repair the bottom where it cracked. The difficult part of this is the SS external strapping they put over the rudder. It's not bolted it's pinned on and the pins are pounded over and mushroomed to stay in place. This makes it secure, but also makes for a lot of water entry points and difficult to repair. The good news is they really over built it and it shows no other signs of stress. If you have a second, any quick points on this would be appreciated. Otherwise I'm sure there is more to learn on your other videos.
Always enjoying watching your videos. Excellent stuff.
As always thank you for posting this unique project. Keep up the good work
"Feel" the blade coming through the bottom? Brother, don't cut your fingers off! 🤣
Indeed this is a rudder that I would not use at all. It's not seaworthy. I will recommend strengthening it.
Glad you uploaded a video about rudders. I am also doing a job about a rudder right now.
Pouring Foam Part II really shows how easy it is to pour it esp. in multiple pours. Didn't know it was that simple. Luckily the #16 doesn't expand that much compared to lighter versions. Thanks so much. Bill
Good Call Dude 👍
I think if I had to replace a bad rudder on an old boat, I'd probably re-design it entirely. Old cruiser-design rudders like that can be improved with modern materials to give you more bite if you're in bad waves/weather, and more efficiency at lower speeds/reverse, etc... Just replacing it seems like almost as much work as just making a new rudder shape entirely.
That Fein "Multimaster tool is AWESOME for many applications!!! I Love your Workshop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!!!!! What I could accomplish with that kind of workspace!!!!!!..... Your's Are Great videos!!!! Originally, that foam was perhaps the same as the often seen "Blue"(Dow) or "Pink"(Owens Corning) Styrene foam-board insulation for Home insulation. It has low density, and is easily shaped, but over time, it can degrade with exposure to the Ultraviolet sunlight, and continual exposure to moisture (submersion). I'd like to know more about the high density "foams" you mentioned being commonly used in Marine applications!...
Most rebuilders (amateur) I've spoken to "split" the rudder rather than taking a section out of the side to remove the foam; is there a reason not to do that? I suspect your way is much easier to shape. Thanks, your videos are very informative.
If you were cutting along the trailing edge again, would you consider laying down a block of wood or foam on the rudder as a 'depth stop' for the Fein? Start by placing the edge of the cutting tool on the surface to be cut, measure up to the body of the tool, find/make a block the appropriate thickness to allow only the amount of blade protrusion as necessary to cut to the desired depth. Does that make sense? Save your fingers!
No tangs on the stock, what’s stopping it from turning?
Hi Andy
I enjoy watching your videos I would like to thank you for taking the time. I seen in one of your videos you mentioned something about mentioning you r video when ordering supplies this will help ratings or something I don't remember but I'd like to help so could you walk me thru on what you were talking about id gladly help out thanks again
I started my career in aircraft maintenance we make our cut than lay Dry Ice on the panel. after you can just lift sink off vinegar we remove the smell,l if you put dry ice on other side foam will put right out its also cleaner
I have to replace the aluminum rudder stockpost on a 50' fiberglass sailboat due to corrosion. I am thinking of cutting the blade open like Andy has done, carving out the foam and old post. Then I will insert the new post, fill with PVC foam and glass over. Do you think is it going to be almost as much work as just making a new rudder entirely from scratch ? Any suggestions on how to make a mold of the old blade ?
Hey Andy, I have just found a 2:1 epoxe from JD having very surprising modulus of elasticity, good ,imho.
Hi, great video.
My question is; is it possible to repair the rudder while it’s still on the boat?
Thanks
Andy do you think you could make a tutorial on how to build a rudder from scratch? Possibly one with foam and one without.
Thanks
Keep up the great work!
Actually, might be a possibility this Winter, but wouldn't be as big of a rudder as what I was working on in this vid.. Would be for a Spindrift 15...
Hi I am replacing the rudder blade and have cut out the blade. The width of the hole is approximately one inch on either side of the shaft and blades. When I put in the new shaft, what would you use around it before glassing in the top?
Unfortunately my rudder broke off so I plan to build a form, position my new rudder stock in it's proper place and fill with 8# two part foam, plane and sure form it to a NACA 0015 foil and glass and graphite it. Does that sound like my best bet?
That's a master lesson how NOT to build a rudder. I think the foam was poured in after the skins were bonded together, purely to stiffen the skins.
The rudder shaft should've had at least one web at the bottom and top, to transfer torque loads to the rudder blade. They should be mechanically fastened or bonded to the outer skins, again to transfer torque.
Frankly, I'm amazed the rudder was still attached to the boat.
At 14:19 it seems clear enough that the stock or shaft of the rudder was fiberglassed to one side of the rudder and I presume that the roughing up of the shaft along its length plus a few indentations would see to the requirement of both the rudder not slipping down, or the torque being transmitted from the shaft to the rudder. I personally would have welded two webs to that shaft to make it more sound and then and only then fiberglass it to the shell of the rudder.
It is interesting that if the gentle man cut the other side of the rudder instead of the one he did, he would have found difficulty to raise the shell up. Also rather than drill many holes first, he should have drilled only one hole in the shell and applied compressed air through one hole and so the lifting and separating of the shell from the foam would be more efficient. The question remains, how did he know which side of the rudder the stock was fiberglassed to?
Thanks for the video! doing same for my little 22' Swanson Dart Daysailer called Grace. The water leaked in where the fibreglass joins the rudder post around the top. Any suggestions on how to adhere the epoxy to the ss post? ie resin to metal as the previous version failed. thanks, Richard
+Richard Gay Try coarsely scuffing the metal, clean with alcohol and apply some G-Flex epoxy (west system) :-) www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
What density of foam do you use to replace?
Since the diver just determined that my rudder on 1968 bristol 24 had fell off, I assumed it was still there as i had to dredge bucket back since the boat was pulling to one side, however discovered that it is no longer with the boat, what are my options since i don't know the size of it, thanks
I'm building myself and plan a steel plate rudder. After this I don't want lumber and certainly not foam. That foam rudder was probably built in China. If you want it done right do it yourself or in a boat yard where you can visit and look and be sure it's done well.
Wak-a-mole in reverse.
I can't believe there aren't any flanges on the rudder stock..... and that is a tube and not solid stock. My little 26 foot Fin Keel racer has a 1 3/8" solid stainless stock with flanges equally spaced along the length of the approximately four foot rudder..... What brand is that from?
Can you tell me what brand of boat this was off of so the people know what the builder is doing, it would go a long way for people to know who is not doing things the right way.
Also if this boat was in the middle of the ocean The rudder could have just fallen off and floated away leaving the owner with only one that might or might not have worked.
The boat is a Freedom35. The issue with the rudder isn't so much of a safety issue (meaning poor construction), but more of a minor design flaw which resulted in the saturated core. The strength and overall design of their boats is actually top notch. This was just an example of how one seemingly minor detail in the design resulted in a larger issue. Of course, it also could have been something as simple as a final step of the building process was overlooked (someone on the assembly line forgot to plug / cap the top of the post). Hard to say for sure :-)
There's no structural steel in that rudder. Just a bare stock in foam. No webs. Its crazy.
Hola Andy, please never ever ever use you hand below a blade as a sensor-- even an oscillating tool: key word is blade
Take care
Who manufactures the foam?
I need to rebuild a rudder from scratch. I have found a lot of info on making a rudder from wood but, not a lot on a foam core rudder from scratch. i guess all i really need is a solid piece of 16lb foam to shape and then lay glass on it? I would use Wood but, i cant bring myself to lay glass over beautiful wood.
+Pork Chop That might be a little tricky, but possible. You'll just need to figure out how to embed the post into the foam :-)
Thanks for the quick response! I really like watching your videos!! I should have mentioned its a tiller rudder. to you think i should embed a 2x6 into the foam for some added strength for the tiller and pin mounts?
Its a 1984 laguna 22
+Pork Chop I think the best way to approach this would be to find a diagram on how they were built originally and copy it the best you can (maybe add some additional strength here and there)..
I am rebuilding a swing keel. Pouring the lead this week then shaping with foam then glassing. Is the blue insulation foam used in construction suitable? It says it is very resistant to water. I have selected it for that reason and it seems easy to shape. I want a good foil shape instead of the barely foil shaped keel from the factory. BTW, your vids have been a great help in my project, thank you.
Hey Duane, sorry for the late response.. The general foam from the big box stores will melt when the resin is applied. What you're looking for is a urethane foam panel. They make sheets of this that can be purchased from composite retailers, but you won't find anything like that from Lowe's, Home Depot, etc...Hope this helps!
BoatworksToday
If you use Epoxy instead of Polyester resin, it can work with hardware store foam.
Just run a test sample before committing to a large project with them.
I had one of those $88 Kool boats that they sold in the 1970's.
It was made of expanded polystyrene beads. The fiberglass kit that was sold
for it (by Sea Snark) used epoxy (it had that familiar popcorny smell)
That rudder is unacceptable
Hi I'm looking for cheoy Lee ketch 52 and up if you know any please let me know
Did he say "A lotta watta gotinto the core udda rudda"?
Why is there no tangs inside
Well that's one cheaply made rudder.
To me it begs the question of why have a foam or anything filled rudder...it is not an aeroplane in which weight is such an issue just weld some steel or stainless steel plate onto the rudder post and all your troubles will melt into the past....sure you can even paint it!
What brand of boat did that come off of?
+shurppa64 Hate to say it, but I don't remember :-/
BoatworksToday Ha Ha That's OK I was just going to avoid ever buying that brand of boat. That rudder says a lot about the quality of the boat in general. Great set of videos buy the way. I really wish I would have gotten into your line of work when I was younger. I like working with my hands and I'm picky about doing things right. You have a good setup and I hope you are prosperous.
Wouldn't it just be easier and lower total cost in saved labor vs materials to make a new rudder?
will you weld some ears on that post? might as well since you ve got it open
I don’t understand why webs weren’t welded to the cone if not in the design then by the owner before the foam I could never go to Sea thinking that cone could spin free!
Freedom 35 lol
I think it was unnecessary to cut this open and do a replacement core on this particular rudder. Simply draining it and vacuuming out the water and allowing it to dry. Fix any cracks then refilling holes with epoxy would extend the life of a neutral buoyant cored rudder especially if the rudder uses a composite stock which this rudder has. So no water leaked in through the rudder surface. That points to a simple drain and plug repair. If the water came in through the post it means the owner partially sank the boat far enough to flood the rudder. Rebuild unnecessary.
The builder may have used ice box foam instead of rudder foam or they didn't know that there was a difference.
Ears? Not ears. rudders are like airplane wings. they have ribs my friend.
a proper repair would have addressed the poor design of the rudder. Common sense tells us that the post should have some sort of fingers or such. Just because the rudder worked does not mean it was build right or will continue to work. Fingers or spokes should have been added.
What a crappy design !
instructional but god you talk waaaay to Much