If anyone is looking for a cymbal that can go extra quiet when needed, I suggest commissioning a half-flat skip lathed ride from Timothy Roberts. I practice on mine with my kid sleeping in the next room, but it gets more than loud enough to use on jazz gigs with electric instruments. I treasure it!
@@ReverieDrumCo the main one I’d be interested in seeing if you could mod is a 20” A Custom. I don’t know the weight of mine but they seem to all be in the 2300 gm range. I don’t know what all you’d be able to do but I’m interested in the sound of the Bosphorus Vintage Flat (if you’re familiar with that?). My other flats are also 20”s: a Paiste Sound Formula and a Bosphorus Antique series. I don’t necessarily want to mod those (the Paiste is B15).
The heavier cymbal would be my preference as a main ride, as the stick definition is more pronounced, but the lighter, more washy one would be a great secondary ride to use when comping behind a soloist, also the lighter cymbal with maybe just 3 rivets for a small sizzle effect would be a nice option to consider. When it comes to sheer volume from a cymbal, weight & the bell size are a big factor. For example a heavy ping ride used for rock would be louder & would have more high end cut, but a lighter, washy, lower pitched ride would be much quieter. Also consider using sticks with different tips. Some tips bring out the darker sounds that a cymbal has, while other tips such as a rounded tip, or a nylon tip would bring out more high end as well as better stick attack. I love these videos, as I learn so much & get to see how a real artist crafts new cymbals. Thanks Timothy you do amazing work!
Thank you! "More technique" says it all. Where you play the cymbal (edge, close to bell, sides, etc.) can give many sounds at the same pressure by the drummer. My personal favorite spot for a groove is the 7:00 o'clock, 2/3 of the distance from the bell. This prevents the overpowering wash of getting too close to the edge. On the other hand, I have a 1960's 19" Zildjian A cymbal in medium weight that sounds wonderful while playing lightly but if I play a little harder, becomes a dull roar - sort of like Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde. The little beast has a split personality and can be hard to control at times. Cymbals can be very complex and they will show you who is the boss.
The type of music you play should determine if your cymbals are too loud, or too weak. Cymbals that sound perfect for a piano trio in a small club, might not work in a big band, or perhaps a pop/rock setting. You could get general purpose cymbals that can work okay for most music, but getting the right cymbals for the job seems the way to go. It's my goal to get at least two sets of cymbals, one for pop/rock/fusion, the other for jazz/Latin/world music. Yes I admit I'm a cymbal nerd/lover for sure!
Totally have experience of a thin, light ride cymbal requiring finesse like you said. In year 4 as a drummer the same cymbal is starting to sound decent, and I can use it in loud volume scenarios now.
I think people spend too much attention to gram weights these days, I was guilty of it too. SOUND is most important, especially how it fits in the environment in which it is to be used in. If you are a studio musician, very thin can work. If you mainly play live, and with electronic instruments, be careful with going too thin. All wash and no cut then. Have to find the SOUND.
Yes! I have a matched set of Avedis Zildjian 14" hi hats that I bought new in 1965 which disproves a lot of common held beliefs in cymbal weights: • Contrary to the popular trend of the top being lighter in weight than the bottom cymbal, my bottom cymbal is slightly lighter than the top one (top - 710g, bottom - 685g). • The top cymbal has narrow, shallow lathing with a tall profile bell and the bottom cymbal has deep, wide lathing with a shallower profile bell. When I nest them for packing, the bottom cymbal easily "spoons" inside the top cymbal, but the top cymbal cannot "spoon" inside the bottom cymbal at all. • The bell profile is more critical to the sound than the weight, relative to the other. When I tap on each one with the tip of my stick while being held with the bell up and supported on my finger, the top cymbal sounds much brighter than the bottom one even though it is heavier. • When I reverse the cymbals on the hi hat stand and place the bottom one on top, the sound of the new “top” one now sounds deep and muted - not so musical as the actual top one. Also, the “chick” sound is not as pronounced as before. After playing these cymbals all these years, they are still like new, but have the well earned "patina" which has a satin shine. They sound especially good with brushes.
Informative stuff indeed! I have a couple medium weight rides (pre-split Istanbul and an Istanbul Mehmet) that I really like but they can develop a kind of drone at certain levels. I can normally control this through technique, but I wonder - why do some cymbals have a drone but others don't?
To me, it's all about the way the cymbal was made. A lack of intentionality with the hammering/lathing can easily result in a lack of balance in the tension of the cymbal. This causes those gnarly notes to stick out above the rest. When a cymbal is well made, the tones are balances and create more of a blend that feels musical without being hard to control. That's generally speaking but I find it to be true in many cymbals that I modify.
Great content, I think many have the misconception you just discussed. On a different note, do you have plans to video the independent panel discussion you guys are putting on at the Chicago show this year…? Or should I be making flight arrangements now…? 😄
Cymbal should be as loud as possible. Particularly the stick sound. Work on your touch and/or play a lot of quiet gigs and you'll be able to use the same cymbal for everything. I prefer the right weight cymbal as loud as possible and I control it when I need to.
(Before end of vid) I always thought bell size dictated a cymbal's volume ceiling, all other things kept constant and had a greater influence over volume than weight, profile etc
Bell size dictating the “volume ceiling” is actually a great way of putting it. Flat rides and mini cups have a cap to how loud the sustain and wash can extend. I like that!
The Sound Creations that are in a good shape cost very much. The sound is not for everyone, but many cymbal holics ache for that piece of bronze, including me
@@seppoinnanen5577 definitely. Most are on the heavy side but have *that* sound that you can’t get in other cymbals (not even any current Paistes). I had a 20” Sound Creation Mellow Ride that had a tiny bell. It had that heavy flat ride tone that you heard on a lot of Danny Gottlieb’s stuff with Pat Metheny.
@@anthonyman8008 I would wait till I hammered the bell to drill the hole. Could you send me an email with pictures of the gong? My email is tim@reveriedrums.com.
The cymbal on the right clearly has a larger bell. Larger bells generate more volume and overtones (fact). The one on the left is also 1/3rd concealed by the one on the right. The bell geometry is contributing a lot. Bell geometry is #1 factor of volume not weight. This is a flawed take on the subject.
I made the cymbals and the bells are the same size. However you are right! Larger bells make the biggest difference in perceived volume. This video’s focus is on weight though. I’ve got more videos coming that’ll focus on the other factors.
I do as well! Something about thinner rides can make them come across as splashier and higher pitched than heavier ones. If you focus on the fundamental tone, however, it'll be lower.
Thx for the reply. Your channel is a godsend to a audio nerd like me. I'm a pro mixing engineer and (as I'm sure you are aware) higher/harsh cymbals often compromise what the overhead microphones pickup.@@ReverieDrumCo
The Versa is made of really thin stainless steel which is very different than bronze. Also in the extremes, it's true that "thin is quieter than thick", but this video deals with a more nuanced approach to cymbals already in a medium thin- thin range.
As an amateur cymbal hobbyist you should stdy the acoustical properties of musical instruments instead of spreading trash. What abt. a discussion between you an sabian, zildjian, paiste and other makers.
I’ve been a full-time cymbalsmith for 5 years so I’m no amateur. I also don’t care so much about talking in depth about other brands. That’s not what this channel is about. As for me “spreading trash”, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it!
If anyone is looking for a cymbal that can go extra quiet when needed, I suggest commissioning a half-flat skip lathed ride from Timothy Roberts. I practice on mine with my kid sleeping in the next room, but it gets more than loud enough to use on jazz gigs with electric instruments. I treasure it!
Thank you so much, Luke!
I have a few flats that I’d love Tim to mod, but I’m afraid they’re too thin to do much with.
@@thecrippledrummer What's the specs on them?
@@ReverieDrumCo the main one I’d be interested in seeing if you could mod is a 20” A Custom. I don’t know the weight of mine but they seem to all be in the 2300 gm range. I don’t know what all you’d be able to do but I’m interested in the sound of the Bosphorus Vintage Flat (if you’re familiar with that?). My other flats are also 20”s: a Paiste Sound Formula and a Bosphorus Antique series. I don’t necessarily want to mod those (the Paiste is B15).
@@thecrippledrummer yeah I’m very familiar with those cymbals. It would be pretty easy to take an a custom flat and turn it into a Bosphorus vibe.
The heavier cymbal would be my preference as a main ride, as the stick definition is more pronounced, but the lighter, more washy one would be a great secondary ride to use when comping behind a soloist, also the lighter cymbal with maybe just 3 rivets for a small sizzle effect would be a nice option to consider. When it comes to sheer volume from a cymbal, weight & the bell size are a big factor. For example a heavy ping ride used for rock would be louder & would have more high end cut, but a lighter, washy, lower pitched ride would be much quieter. Also consider using sticks with different tips. Some tips bring out the darker sounds that a cymbal has, while other tips such as a rounded tip, or a nylon tip would bring out more high end as well as better stick attack. I love these videos, as I learn so much & get to see how a real artist crafts new cymbals. Thanks Timothy you do amazing work!
Yeah! I totally agree! Thanks for watching.
Thank you! "More technique" says it all. Where you play the cymbal (edge, close to bell, sides, etc.) can give many sounds at the same pressure by the drummer. My personal favorite spot for a groove is the 7:00 o'clock, 2/3 of the distance from the bell. This prevents the overpowering wash of getting too close to the edge.
On the other hand, I have a 1960's 19" Zildjian A cymbal in medium weight that sounds wonderful while playing lightly but if I play a little harder, becomes a dull roar - sort of like Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde. The little beast has a split personality and can be hard to control at times.
Cymbals can be very complex and they will show you who is the boss.
Exactly! This is a great way of putting it.
I gotta buy some of these cymbals. They just sound soo good bro.
Thank you!
Love those the thinner Is an amazing crash to me. The otger one Is a beauty. Well done Timothy!!!!
Thank you!
Love these uploads Tim!
I really appreciate this content, thanks Tim!
The type of music you play should determine if your cymbals are too loud, or too weak. Cymbals that sound perfect for a piano trio in a small club, might not work in a big band, or perhaps a pop/rock setting. You could get general purpose cymbals that can work okay for most music, but getting the right cymbals for the job seems the way to go. It's my goal to get at least two sets of cymbals, one for pop/rock/fusion, the other for jazz/Latin/world music. Yes I admit I'm a cymbal nerd/lover for sure!
Blown away . You are a master !
Thank you!
Totally have experience of a thin, light ride cymbal requiring finesse like you said. In year 4 as a drummer the same cymbal is starting to sound decent, and I can use it in loud volume scenarios now.
I think people spend too much attention to gram weights these days, I was guilty of it too. SOUND is most important, especially how it fits in the environment in which it is to be used in. If you are a studio musician, very thin can work. If you mainly play live, and with electronic instruments, be careful with going too thin. All wash and no cut then. Have to find the SOUND.
True!
Yes! I have a matched set of Avedis Zildjian 14" hi hats that I bought new in 1965 which disproves a lot of common held beliefs in cymbal weights:
• Contrary to the popular trend of the top being lighter in weight than the bottom cymbal, my bottom cymbal is slightly lighter than the top one (top - 710g, bottom - 685g).
• The top cymbal has narrow, shallow lathing with a tall profile bell and the bottom cymbal has deep, wide lathing with a shallower profile bell. When I nest them for packing, the bottom cymbal easily "spoons" inside the top cymbal, but the top cymbal cannot "spoon" inside the bottom cymbal at all.
• The bell profile is more critical to the sound than the weight, relative to the other. When I tap on each one with the tip of my stick while being held with the bell up and supported on my finger, the top cymbal sounds much brighter than the bottom one even though it is heavier.
• When I reverse the cymbals on the hi hat stand and place the bottom one on top, the sound of the new “top” one now sounds deep and muted - not so musical as the actual top one. Also, the “chick” sound is not as pronounced as before.
After playing these cymbals all these years, they are still like new, but have the well earned "patina" which has a satin shine. They sound especially good with brushes.
Informative stuff indeed! I have a couple medium weight rides (pre-split Istanbul and an Istanbul Mehmet) that I really like but they can develop a kind of drone at certain levels. I can normally control this through technique, but I wonder - why do some cymbals have a drone but others don't?
To me, it's all about the way the cymbal was made. A lack of intentionality with the hammering/lathing can easily result in a lack of balance in the tension of the cymbal. This causes those gnarly notes to stick out above the rest. When a cymbal is well made, the tones are balances and create more of a blend that feels musical without being hard to control. That's generally speaking but I find it to be true in many cymbals that I modify.
Great content, I think many have the misconception you just discussed. On a different note, do you have plans to video the independent panel discussion you guys are putting on at the Chicago show this year…? Or should I be making flight arrangements now…? 😄
Seconded, would love to see this but won't be able to attend.
I think it will be videoed! At least that's my understanding. I may ask to do so if it's not. Either way, it would be great to meet ya!
@@ReverieDrumCo likewise sir, I’m pretty certain I’ll be making the pilgrimage.
Cymbal should be as loud as possible. Particularly the stick sound. Work on your touch and/or play a lot of quiet gigs and you'll be able to use the same cymbal for everything. I prefer the right weight cymbal as loud as possible and I control it when I need to.
That's a very subjective take, but I like it! Hand technique and control are HUGE factors in all this.
Love the heavier one.
Me too. That's my vibe for sure!
(Before end of vid) I always thought bell size dictated a cymbal's volume ceiling, all other things kept constant and had a greater influence over volume than weight, profile etc
Bell size dictating the “volume ceiling” is actually a great way of putting it. Flat rides and mini cups have a cap to how loud the sustain and wash can extend. I like that!
The heavier cymbal sounds similar to a 22” Paiste Sound Creation Dark Ride I had 25-30 years ago. Wish I never had sold it😕
Some of those cymbals sound incredible!
The Sound Creations that are in a good shape cost very much. The sound is not for everyone, but many cymbal holics ache for that piece of bronze, including me
@@seppoinnanen5577 definitely. Most are on the heavy side but have *that* sound that you can’t get in other cymbals (not even any current Paistes). I had a 20” Sound Creation Mellow Ride that had a tiny bell. It had that heavy flat ride tone that you heard on a lot of Danny Gottlieb’s stuff with Pat Metheny.
I have a 24 inch sun gong, can a bell be shaped on those???
Do you know what material it's made from?
@@ReverieDrumCo No, but i think a lot of Bronze
@@anthonyman8008 bronze is definitely workable!
@@ReverieDrumCo SWEET! Can i drill a hole in the center before you work on it? Or should i wait?
@@anthonyman8008 I would wait till I hammered the bell to drill the hole. Could you send me an email with pictures of the gong? My email is tim@reveriedrums.com.
The cymbal on the right clearly has a larger bell. Larger bells generate more volume and overtones (fact). The one on the left is also 1/3rd concealed by the one on the right. The bell geometry is contributing a lot. Bell geometry is #1 factor of volume not weight. This is a flawed take on the subject.
I made the cymbals and the bells are the same size. However you are right! Larger bells make the biggest difference in perceived volume. This video’s focus is on weight though. I’ve got more videos coming that’ll focus on the other factors.
It’s the perspective of the cymbal on the right being closer to the camera that’s causing it to look larger.
the heavier is 👌
Am I the only one who perceives the right/heavier as lower in pitch?
I do as well! Something about thinner rides can make them come across as splashier and higher pitched than heavier ones. If you focus on the fundamental tone, however, it'll be lower.
Thx for the reply. Your channel is a godsend to a audio nerd like me. I'm a pro mixing engineer and (as I'm sure you are aware) higher/harsh cymbals often compromise what the overhead microphones pickup.@@ReverieDrumCo
My 20” Versastack is quieter than any other cymbal I own so this clearly means thin cymbals are quieter. Case closed!
The Versa is made of really thin stainless steel which is very different than bronze. Also in the extremes, it's true that "thin is quieter than thick", but this video deals with a more nuanced approach to cymbals already in a medium thin- thin range.
I like your content but I find it really annoying the way you keep looking to your right...just saying🙂
Hahah I’ll work on that! Turns out looking at the cymbals you’re talking about that the audience can’t see is not a good method… 😂
@@ReverieDrumCo I'll keep watching!
As an amateur cymbal hobbyist you should stdy the acoustical properties of musical instruments instead of spreading trash.
What abt. a discussion between you an sabian, zildjian, paiste and other makers.
I’ve been a full-time cymbalsmith for 5 years so I’m no amateur. I also don’t care so much about talking in depth about other brands. That’s not what this channel is about. As for me “spreading trash”, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it!