My Take On Vintage Cymbals - Timothy Roberts
Вставка
- Опубліковано 16 лют 2023
- I know this is very controversial to some, but I lightly modified these 2 New Stamp old K Zildjian cymbals from between 1966-1977. It is definitely a worthy topic to discuss whether this is "destroying" a historical piece or "enabling it to live on and have a new life". Please let me know what you think in the comments below!
Visit reveriedrums.com for more info on the work I do; ie. the handmade cymbals, drums, cymbal modifications, and percussion accessories.
Finding the prefect ride is what we drummers have been chasing for years, no decades! I think the imperfections is what made some of these cymbals the most beautiful cymbals. We were going for the most unique sound and chasing the mysterious sound is what drummers wanted. The problem today is there are so many cymbals from dark to bright, small bell, big bell, this lathing that lathing, it’s option anxiety! I was chasing this dark K sound until I realized that the modern cymbal making process can now reproduce that old K sound! So spending $2k plus for cymbal is not my goal. Now that everyone is making this sound, I’m playing Paiste 2002 cymbals! I have my old K, Sabian HH, Istanbul … but my sound has become modern Paiste! Oh well it’s my cymbal sound today … play what you love. I’m just not rich enough to chase the “k sound” … great video and very balanced commentary Tim! Great job!
Thank you and couldn’t agree more!
Agreed
Chances are, if you had endless money to go vault picking, you'd prob walk away with one line from one brand crash, a different ride,different hi hats. Variety is best
@@NintenDub you know it’s funny that you said that because I could play any cymbal I want today, but I’m finding how much I love playing the cymbals I couldn’t afford as a kid today! Also, I think the “unique sound” is lost in the thousands of cymbals being produced by so many cymbal makers today! I think we are trying even harder to find “that sound” and in the process making it harder to actually find that sound. But I guess you will know the sound when you hear it! It’s an individual thing for each of us and having more options makes it harder to identify in my humble option.
Nobody, including the drummer can tell the difference in sound.
My favorite cymbals that I've ever played are old As actually. My ears loved them. 40s and 50s. But to each their own. ❤❤
Old A's were almost all quite thin, almost uniformly good, also bright enough for pop and rock. I had one, played a few fabulous ones too.
Old Istanbul K's were very quirky, very individual, but the better ones were pure magic.
So friggin' cool - the algorithm finally brought this up! I have bought and sold a few rides and am absolutely pumped that I have finally found this channel.
Thanks! I’ve got a video this in-depth and nerdy coming out every Friday! Haha
Funny thing….some so called “dogs” could be the best cymbal someone else has ever heard…I have sold cymbals that I thought sounded really bad..and then the buyer would call me and say…...”Dude!….How could you let that one go!..Totally amazing “…..or..words to that effect…
Very true!!! This is all super relative and that’s what makes cymbals such an interesting instrument.
Man I even play both roles for myself, I’m that guy getting rid of the cymbal, then the next day I’m the guy saying “dude how could you get rid of that” lol
After recently purchasing a 1940’s 22’’ Transtamp I think my head took over and convince myself it’s the best I ever heard - lol
It’s does sound amazing though even after the honeymoon period.
I learnt so interesting stuff from this video - thank you.
@@Bigsbeee You bet! Perspective really is such a big part of all this.
@@alexcoleman70 I can relate to THAT!!😂
Very interesting talk on our favorite subject! I had a K from the 70's and it was just as you describe, very hand made and the uniqueness came from that. I was taking lessons in the Bay Area from Terry Bozzios teacher Chuck Brown and he had a waiting room where the drummers would warm up on their pads before a lesson. Well one day Chuck was backed up and there were a bunch of us hanging out and one of the guys who was there worked at Don Weirs Music City S.F. in the drum department. He said the last shipment of the old K's was about to come in and if we were interested come on in (which I did). I played on the 6 or so that were left and made my selection which I used for years. That cymbal really required good technique and musicianship to play and also getting to know all the little quirks that it had; some good and bad. It could be hard to control in some settings so after years of service I sold it for quite a bit more than I paid for it. I think modern cymbals are fine and much more consistent. I play a set of Paiste Traditionals and have no complaints whatsoever. I actually heard the 22" ride of this set from across the room where someone was trying it out. I went right over there when he was done and bought it along with a 17" right next to it. That was the turning point to using modern cymbals, I went home and sold my K.
Thanks for sharing! That’s awesome you had that experience of sorting through a set of Ks like that and finding something you used for years.
Wow, I didn't know that about hitting a group batch all together to form the bell in earlier times. When i hear about the bronze age, they must have had cymbals back then. Besides a gong anyway.
There are some great companies making vintage sounding cymbals like Bosphorus, Istanbul , Dream and Cymbal n gong. Also the independent guys make great cymbals too. This was a great video.😎
Thanks!
Love this video and your channel Tim! I’ve been interested in cymbals and their construction for a while now, and I love hearing the talented independent craftsmen like yourself talk about anything cymbals. can’t wait for that modification video!
Thanks Ben! Really appreciate it!
Super interesting video. Thanks for sharing this knowledge!
I really like that first cymbal. Learned some new stuff today!
Great video on the old K's and old A's! I grew up in the 60's and I remember playing a friend's drum set & I fell in love with his hi-hat cymbals. They were much thinner than the new ones being made at the time, they had a very dark look/patina to them, and they sounded great. They may have been old A's but they were so playable, so quick to respond to my sticks, that I wish I could find a pair of hats like them today. I remember playing another school mate's drums & he had I think a 70's K, well I didn't like it at all. It felt great to play it, but it had some overtones that conflicted pretty bad. PS I think it's worth noting that just because a lot of drummers played K's in the 60's doesn't mean they were made in the 60's. Here in Los Angeles we would often buy used cymbals & some were K's from the late 50's or early 60's. Buying, selling, and trading cymbals was common in the 60's just as it is today. Timothy you do a great service to the drumming community, thanks for your awesome videos!
Thanks for watching!
Tim is one of the kingpins in the world of cymbal modification. His finished pies are sweet esp for jazz players like myself.
Too kind!
incredibly informative 〜 love your channel, keep it up!
I have to comment. I love your stuff and you are amazing to craft great new cymbals, which I believe is a much wiser purchase than OLD KAYS. Unless you can find that one in a million out there, they are not worth the lore and fantastic price they are selling for. I mean seriously, if the Nefertiti ride was so unbelievable, why didn't Tony play it forever? New music. New sounds. If you are going to play in a band the covers Nefertiti to the T, then buy that ride for 10 grand. Not me. And for collectors, you all are buying museum pieces. God bless you, but these are instruments to be played and not put in a glass case to worship.
One point of error. I am sure Paul did not mean to say that Avedis and Armand were opening up crates of K's to check them over before they went out. Unless they bought a few crates to see what those were all about and figure out how to copy them, Gretsch was the exclusive dealers of K's and would have been the ones to open those crates in Brooklyn and allow the cats of the day to play test them and pick the good ones, which they did. A lot of them cracked. Look at video of Mel Lewis, Steve Gadd and others. Lots of them that were good did crack. I digress.
It is a point of fact the A Zildjian family went to court to be able to try and STOP K. Zildjian from being able to use the name Zildjian, which the A's had trade marked in the U.S. The Turks and Americans had NO business dealings with each other. Just a common name and some shirt tail relatives in the same business. That's oversimplified, but hey. The Turks were pretty much in constant manufacture of cymbals from the middle ages until they went out of business in like 79. Ultimately the courts ruled in favor of the Turks and sighted that the word Zildjian was essentially a (GASP!) generic term for cymbal. Much like Kleenex is for facial tissue. I think this court case was in 1958.
I credit Paiste and Istanbul in bringing the old darker and complex cymbals in a realistic and reliable fashion to market in the mid 90's. A little earlier for Istanbul. I have an early 90's pre-split Istanbul that is not noteworthy, but far far better than the Big K's that came out in the 80's. In '98 Paiste Traditional series really made a big difference. Then so many others figured it out as well. Zildjian with the K Cons came along. Now several boutique makers like yourself have really dialed it in and know how to get certain aspects that are desirable rather than the hit and miss of it all that seemed normal to Old K's.
Keep hammering!
Amazing context to add! From my understanding, the crates of cymbals coming in was from an earlier date, before A Zildjian was producing in the US. I also might be totally mistaken by what Paul was actually saying. Im definitely no historian when it comes to these pieces. My purview is strictly from a manufacturing standpoint. Thank you so much for adding this to the conversation!
Jim, you know your history dude! I could have said it better … and I tried! 🤘🏻😎🙏🏻
Paiste's website states the Traditionals began in 1996, not 1998. Istanbul began around 1980, but from what I've read, the early cymbals were more like modern K's, and they didn't start making cymbals in the old K fashion until the 90's.
matt bettis makes some very astounding cymbals. old K's are nice, i like constantinoples, but have a few other turkish made cymbals. hope you are well. tim... nice video.
Matt Bettis is one of the greats! I still remember the ride you gave me of his! I used it for many years and it went to a dear friend of mine. Good to hear from you, John!
Beginning drummer. Love the information. Thank you. I'm going through cymbals beginning with the cheap ones, trading them in, replacing them, finding those that I really like. I have a crash that I very much like as a ride. Like I said, I'm a beginner.
It's a fun process!
That's awesome Tim, I still have and play my 1974 Zildjian set of cymbals that we sound matched in a cymbal room at Drummers Paradise in Toronto. They sound fantastic today!
That’s amazing! Have you noticed them change over the decades?
@@ReverieDrumCo Not really, if they do, it must be so suttle and have not noticed as I'm around them all the time, 14" hats, 18" ride, 18" china, 2 -17" crashes. heavy and medium (Another 16" crash was replaced in the 80's (no stamp, just black logo) being broken by an over zealous singer giving it a wack while playing a cowbell...lol) All have Avedis Zildjian stamp with turkish logo, all Made in USA, except crashes and china says Made in Canada. I do not know if they are A's or K's.
@@bradhatton3387 Those would be As!
The "canada" ones may be EAK or "early american K". Those are the precursors to Sabian.
@@ReverieDrumCo Great, thanks for the info Tim
Greetings from Brazil. Drummers here are shifting towards handcrafted cymbals. We have Domene, Red Foot and BFC, take a look at them later if you will. Thanks
Yes! Domene supplies most of my blanks!
Really enjoyed this and the education. Thank you.
The old hi hats are, by far, the best!!!!!!
When I was a kid I had one. A neighbor had half a kit so he left his stuff with me on the agreement he could come play my kit when he wanted.
His old K was 18 inches, "made in Constantinople" stamped on it as I recall. No cracks, but it had a dent on the rim. Man, was that thing trashy, super low profile, small bell and completely the opposite of what i wanted when I was playing as a kid. I wanted Loud BRIGHT cutting cymbals. I was all into hard rock and only used it as a stand in for a China I couldn't afford at the time. My neighbor moved away and didn't leave any contact details (I think he moved to Finland to get married and manage a McDonald's of all things) and so I sold it, his snare and 18 inch floor tom. This was in the early 90s? I don't think I got 100 bucks for it. I ended up selling all my stuff at one point, something I regret to this day as I try to reassemble an acoustic kit.
wow, that's wild. It's sad you don't see those kind of deals come up much anymore.
Thanks Tim, as always. I will say it's interesting to me that folks at A. Zildjian say how many clunkers there were with the K's yet, in my experience nearly ALL A's are clunkers in my hands. These, however, were mostly 1970s and on versions so, NOT the cherished 40s/50s. The 70's A were clangy and obnoxious though I suppose they worked well in big band or rock settings where it was loud and subtlety wasn't the name of the game. Of course, always plenty of exceptions, as well. I've played and sold (large collections belonging to others) roughly a hundred old K's over past many years and they may not seem great at first but, generally, they were far more interesting on the band stand than any A I had. Find it hard to believe that 90% were bad but, maybe so.
Hi Lane…even at age 15 or so..(1971)…..I thought most A’Zils sounded bad!..Then,a friend loaned me a thin 602 for a gig…..First time i hit it…..I could not believe it!..THAT was the sound I was looking for!
I agree! I'm not sure I've ever played an old A I would say I loved, but that's also a consequence of the general vibe each has. I don't aim towards the chime-like sounds of older A zildjians (especially not 70s on As) but I do aim towards the good older K Zildjian sounds; ie. dark/warm/complex/trashy
Also the bit about 90% being bad is by far the most controversial thing I said in this video (I got some pretty angry comments on FB). That was pulled directly from multiple sources that had a direct connection with people who had first-hand experience. For instance, Paul Francis learned from Armand that when Avedis Zildjian would import K Zildjians they would root though them and, according to Armand, "Only about 10 out of every 100 were any good". Another great source is Rick Dior's YT video on "old K zildjian cymbals". He's played hundreds and has a similar experience.
@@ReverieDrumCo Got my first A.Zil in around 1968…a used……$12 …12” Splash….iT wasn’t till I got hip to 1930s-50s A’s that I discovered the real great ones…Actually hand hammered….with a lump hammer!
I don't mean start a controversy and was wary of commenting. I've been reading those comments and spoken to older drummers who have said the same thing, if not exactly in a numbers sense. My comments re the Zildjians and others at the company didn't make very good jazz cymbals for a long long time and it could all be hyperbole. For me, almost ANY handmade cymbal I've played is more rewarding once I learn what to do with it and bend it towards my needs. Anyway, it's all in good spirit. There's many sounds and directions. I do LOVE the modern cymbal makers and have been collecting and playing some from just about every one of them!
Great video Tim!
Thanks Tim! Really dig your vids on these cymbals. You've got some incredible sounding ones! (as well as that amazing Funch clone)
If it sounds good it doesn’t matter if old or not!
True!
The misshapen Bell on that first symbol sounds amazing
Completely interesting! I wish I’d heard about you years ago (nice one instagram).. yesterday received a box of Stack ring bits.. already has improved my sound and enhanced my playing. (incidentally, the buying process was made super easy by Tim, thanks so much)
But the enthusiasm and knowledge shown here is so nice to see, and so informative too, brilliant stuff
So happy to hear that! Thanks Stephen!
Very nice video, i always loved old K's because I grew up on Elvin and Tony.
Cannot afford one, but i found that modern Turkish made cymbals can get pretty close. I have some early Istanbul (black logo, pre split), that are now almost 40 years old and are my favorites (the same Elvin played throughout the 80's and 90's) as well as some Bosphorus and others, and i am happy with them.
To my ears though, the best i ever heard are from the late Italian Maestro, Roberto Spizzichino.
He’s a legend!
In 1961 I was working at Valley Drum City in Van Nuys, Ca. One day a guy came in and said he had 2 cymbals for sale and he wanted $10 each. I bought an 18" and a 20" K. The 20 was alright and the 18 was the best cymbal I've ever played.
That's awesome!
Me personally, I would much rather not see any vintage cymbal (regardless of brand or series) reworked at all. I’m of the opinion that if one considers oneself a craftsman, that one would respect and revere the work of the craftsman before them (this being a generalization not directed at any one individual in particular). Sound is subjective. That said, most drummers who seek out an independent have chosen them based on familiarity or as a reference from someone they trust, they usually don’t have the knowledge of metallurgy so they seek those who do, such as Mr. Roberts. I would rather see the cymbalsmith try and preserve the vintage and push for creating new cymbals , based on what the drummer is pursuing and thus creating a “future vintage” cymbal…leave the old guard alone, so to speak. I thoroughly enjoy your videos Mr. Roberts and your passion is evident…but being of “vintage” age myself, I have developed a bit of a fondness for everything old…lol. ✌🏻
I totally respect that opinion. I’ve only been able to develop my craft by reworking many cymbals (approximately 600+) before I ever made an original/from-scratch creation. While only a fraction of those reworked/modified are of the vintage, pre-1980 variety, I have been able to really learn from those projects. I’ve only reworked vintage ones that customers have sent me and may have sentimental value, but because of the sound, they were usable to that drummer. They thought it was worth it to have me modify it. I definitely respect these vintage cymbals and the craftsmen who made them, but I tend to care more about the sound than I do the value as a historical artifact. I also would be greatly disadvantaged if I refused to work on pre-made cymbals. That pursuit really helped me develop my own “voice” as an independent cymbal-smith. Gotta understand the past to have anything useful to say in the present! Thanks for the comment!
Extremely well put, sir! And then we are no even touching the subject that they were striving for different sounds during different eras due to preferences and musical style. They had the manufactoring technic they had and the tried to create cymbals with the sound that was in demand. It is as easy as that!
Not all K’s played on 60s records were brand new though……They could be Old Stamps from the 50s…
Totally true. 10 or even 20 yrs age is still very different from 50+ years though.
@@ReverieDrumCo Do you know the bit about Turkish K.Zildjian getting phone cable from the Turkish government ….because they ran out of metal?..They smelted it down,..somehow..and used that to make K’s with!
@@Formula-602 yeah, for the copper! I know the Turks source their copper from all over the place so that doesn’t surprise me at all!
Does keyholing change the tone of the cymbals ? Also how do you feel about cleaning vintage cymbals? Great info! Thanks 😊
It can if there are cracks. Usually keyholes just affect how the cymbal leans. As for cleaning, most purists would say to never clean vintage cymbals because you’ll remove the patina which can do wonderful things to the sound. I tend to agree!
Nice informative and entertaining video. What's the deal with bland drum finishes behind you? Don't you like finishes that flash under the stage lights; some finish you can see from more than ten feet away? Thank you.
I like to make kits with simple and/or wood finishes. I've loved this kind of drum kit look ever since we started 8 yrs ago. Different strokes I guess!
@@ReverieDrumCo Absolutely. Purely curious.
Do you have an opinion on higher end B8 bronze cymbals? I really like the airbrush sound of Paistes. The Rude 14" hi-hats and Giant Beat 20" are two of my favorite examples.
Paiste’s really are incredible for the type of sound they produce. I’ve got a lot of respect for them as a company. The Giant Beat stuff sounds great.
@@ReverieDrumCo Yeah after commenting I realized I'm a rock guy so sensibilities are going to be different. If you are exploring unlathed cymbals, the Rude 14" hi hats are very versatile sounding, far more polite than anything. The Rude thin crashes also. Anything else from that line is too abrasive even for me.
JIC any drummer is listening for first few times.... i purchased a 24" ride that Tim made. it is fantastic. it is worth the $$$. i matched it with a 20" bettis ride and a set of 14" bettis hats. i have never had a more complimentary set of cymbals. back in the day i purchased A ZIldlian set of "vintage" cymbals. they were light bright and very responsive. they matched amazingly. i like darker and low pitched rides now. gave those A Vntage cymbals away, miss them.
my goal is to get a set of all of Tim's cymbals and play those on my hip gig kit.
i feel if you are looking for an OLD K SOUND.... one of Tim's cymbals will fit the bell at a better price.
quality. beauty and hand made.
Thank you John!
ha ha........no, Thank You!!!@@ReverieDrumCo
PS I think it's worth getting an old K if you can afford one, and find one that really has the sound you want, but if you want a set of these old K's you'll have to be very patient as it could take a while just to get a good ride, a set of hats, and a crash or two. Me personally, I would go with a new/used cymbal from a good company that has the sounds I'm looking for. I would not want to gig with such expensive & coveted cymbals, but record with...for sure!
I'm not into paying $2000 for one ride cymbal especially when you have many companies ( independent etc) making quality cymbals. I have Istanbul Agop and Mehmet as well as some Paiste and Sabian with the majority being handmade and which I think that is the main difference. Those cymbals you have are crafted beautifully and sound great❤.
Agreed!
Please explain what you mean by a flea bite on a cymbal. How does a bug chew through a metal cymbal? Im Confused. Thanks!
A “flea bite” is the name for a dent in the edge of the cymbal from either a drop or something banging into it. Not sure why they call it that! Haha
Tim, have you had opportunity working with a Paiste Sound Creation of any model? I've considered having one modified but haven't committed to the idea completely. I have some really great ones and in many different models but some are definitely on the 'weird' side of the spectrum.
Yeah, I've modified a few. Some really weird ones that had almost swish-like shapes and others that were beautiful but the customer wanted thinner. They are very interesting to work on!
Hey Tim, i like your Video. Another perspective on the "Sound of the old K's" is. The most of us know these Sounds through recordings, and most of these recordings are made 60* years ago. Well, recording technique was ok in this days, but sometimes also a bit distorted and with all respect, not high res, as we know it today. So, my take on this is, that many chase a Sound that is not what the cymbals sounds like.
That’s very true! I discuss that point in a bunch of my videos. It’s maybe the biggest factor in all this.
What cymbal stands are you using to fit the smaller hole
I always drill them out to fit on any stand.
Interesting that you say the lower profile bow on a cymbal is more coveted by jazz players, however the more modern “jazz rides” from EAK and IAK are umbrella shaped because I assume although they may have a higher stick pitch they also deliver more complexity of tone. The other more modern ride I am interested in for jazz is the k zildjian dry complex ride designed in collaboration with drummer bill stewart, I think the second series may have lowered the profile to achieve a lower fundamental. I am normally using a low profile ride for stick definition as a main ride and an umbrella shaped ride as an alternative which also crashes very well flooding the room with complex tone.
I just mean the lower profile will give a more versatile sound. Super high profile cymbals have limited spread and a more focused type of sound. That being said they can make for great jazz rides depending on the other specs.
I think the sticks have a lot to do w the sound. My 22” ride was so noisy w a nylon tip but better w wood tip. I had a pair of synthetic sticks called Bulletproof and the recordings of the cymbal was so sweet. You didn’t hear the stick at all. Just my $.02.
This is a HUGE point on cymbal sounds. I'm making a video on it now.
I find cymbal making one of the most fascinating arts out there...have you done a video yet describing just how you ended up doing this kind of work??
No, but I definitely need to! That's a great idea!
@@ReverieDrumCo yes! I would love to hear how it all happened for you...I have always wanted a trade like yours and as a drummer, I get so deeply fascinated by what goes into cymbals and how one learns that AND the tools used.
@@mountainhobbit1971 it’s honestly the most addictive thing I’ve done. It’s so inspiring to search for sounds and see what’s possible.
It seems like 90% of Zildjian cymbals sound bad today, too. In 1978 I ordered a complete set of A Zildjians and they all sounded perfect. Today, if I did that I would get a bunch of trash can lids. Quality is gone.
Got a link to your podcast?
ua-cam.com/video/iHPm5DxVzYY/v-deo.html
You can also find it on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts by searching “The Reverie Podcast”
Awesome
I have an old K made in turkey. K zildjian and co.
The "human element" - exactly. That's what Zildjian has been missing/loosing recently ... I once went to the Bosphorus factory in Istanbul and it was like that: a bunch of folks with a hammer and an anvil. Hand-made to the core. Never a bad sounding cymbal from those guys (and most Turkish makers today).
Yeah, of all the machine made stuff there's very little that feels inspiring to play.
The first cymbal is just mezmerizing
I’m trying to find out about a 23 inch Zilzian cymbal I paid 100 it has the stamp but no serial numbers
I'll take a look if you want to send a photo! tim@reveriedrums.com
Thank you Timothy for this another very interesting video.
So, speaking of "hand shaped" bells, is not truth that they were shaped with the classic hammer but with special hanmer and anvil? Like moreover is explained in the book of Pinksterboer?
Paolo
Yes! That’s true. They would stack them and hit a die with a sledgehammer. They may have done some hand hammering to the bells but Im not sure on that point.
@@ReverieDrumCo probably they hammered the bell after they was shaped.
That’s certainly possible!
@@ReverieDrumCo I have an old K from ca. 1950, and the bell appears to be hammered, though it's very difficult to tell. It's easier to see on the underside than the topside. It could use some modifying - it hums when I lay into it, something I didn't notice for years when I was using sticks with very small tips. The bell is slightly misshapen as well, definitely not K. Zildjian's finest work, lol. Anyway, would it have to be lathed to remove the hum, or could it possibly be done through hammering/re-shaping the bell?
@@jc3drums916 with those cymbals I really don’t recommend hammering just due to the age and brittleness that’s comes as bronze as it gets to be 40* years old. Lathing could take care of it, but it wouldn’t be a guaranteed fix. Hammering to reshape is most of the time the best way to deal with those types of issues. Misshapen bells are very common with old Ks!
YES! 👏🏼👏🏼
Dude, do you have a source on the copper/tin separation info? From how little molecular movement is present in metals (especially intermetallic phases with a crystalline tendency), I highly doubt that there is ANY de-mixing within the period of several lifetime. There are tons of well-preserved bronze daggers from THOUSANDS of years ago out there, you know? A quick google search did not hint at bronze alloys deteriorating by themselves over time either.
There’s a few scientific papers I’ve read on the subject. The ones I’ve seen theorize that over the course of hundreds of thousands of years the separation could fully take place. I’ve had multiple people bring up old weaponry (hundreds to upwards of 2 thousand years old) as a way to try and discredit what I’m saying. The big difference here is that cymbal alloy is MUCH thinner than those pieces of weaponry and armor, and they are continually struck/in a state of vibration. Even if it’s an incredibly small change that change will be very noticeable in a really thin piece of metal that’s meant to make a sound as well.
It even shows itself in the creation of cymbal blanks. When a blank is anywhere from 0-3 weeks old it is incredibly soft and malleable. If you leave a blank for a year or more it takes about 2x as long to hammer it into shape. The alloy has had time to harden and the metal composition is already starting to change and (in an extremely small way) started to separate.
Watch John Riley life long collector of K's ... Some were dogs and if you get one marked " mother" inside the bell , you got a very good one . Hand made so variables
Oh yeah! That's a great video series from Memphis Drum Shop.
I have a couple old K's… I like having them, but I rarely use them… They are rather heavy with a small diameter… Probably marching crash cymbals.
Yeah, they made a lot of those back in the day!
My Zildjians came with my '67 Ludwig Super Classics- I have no idea what series they are- still play and record with them- 20" med ride, 18" med-thin crash ride and 14" hats (which are pretty thin compared to what came out soon after)-would they be A or K...? I did break up a shoving match one day at a jazz open mike when I saw 3 drummers surrounding my much younger wife arguing over who was getting my cymbals if I die before her- all saying I promised them (which I didn't)- one saying the hats were the only ones that sounded good with brushes on a recording......are they really that big a deal...?
Check out the metal stamp on top. Do you see “avedis” or “A” next to Zildjian? Or do you see “K”? That’ll be your answer. You can also tell by the bells. As have a taller, more uniform shape.
Thats awesome you’ve got those either way!
@@ReverieDrumCo Thanks ...that was too easy- it has Avedis next to Zildjian. So I guess I have Vintage "A's"....appreciate it.
@@davidjperkins1710 Yep! That's it!
Great video! In the 70's I bought a kit (combo of Slingerland and Ludwig drums) from a woman whose husband passed, she sold it for 25$, four K's came with it, HH, crash and ride. They sound nice for jazz, latin and early rock. I didn't realize they command such high prices. I sold only one cymbal for money and that was a 30" Zildjian ride I bought in 1972, it took 6 months to get it. I regret selling it.
Wow! That’s a find! That doesn’t ever happen these days anymore.
@@ReverieDrumCo Unfortunately Women don't marry to musicians anymore :)
I have a 60s era 18” med ride…. Keep it under wraps. Lol
Keep it secret, keep it safe!
Can you elaborate or point to where this ‘theory’ of tin and copper wanting to ‘separate’ in bronze alloy comes from?
You mentioned that over the course of hundreds of thousand years, they would separate. The earliest bronze alloys produced are only around 6500 years Old.
Yeah ,there's a cymbalsmith named Nicky Moon who has found research papers from major physicists who theorize about how long it would take for the copper/tin to fully separate. I'm just referencing the research he's done. He knows more about this stuff than I do and is definitely worth reaching out to!
what is your feeling about washing cymbals in hot water...?
That can certainly help loosen up the natural patina for cleaning. I use mild heat when applying my patinas. That helps keep things loose and allows the solutions to react to the metal.
@@ReverieDrumCo Thank you sir , I have been doing it a long time but never checked if it was good or bad. I appreciate the knowledge that you empart...
@@ReverieDrumCo How? Through magic? It ain't going to do anything. Water won't do ANYTHING
I wish we could have a private talk….
Great vid! ❤I think players/composers/arrangers have been aware since the birth of these old instruments that a lot of them are indeed duds. The issue is the rise of disposable cash in society and thus the onset of collectors and enthusiasts who between them, have driven the exclusivity of these instruments beyond the ‘good ones’ and we’ll into the ‘not so good ones’! Still, it’s commerce, and fun sifting through it all!
Very true!
Great video. I've been obsessed with the mystique of K's for over 30 years. I keep trying to move away from them but they always pull me back in.
The cymbals you're making sound awesome by the way. Hopefully I can try some one of these days.
JC
Thanks JC! They can definitely have an "aura" about them. I find the same thing applies to well-made, hand-hammered cymbals (from the indie guys especially)
I totally agree! I have a whole set of cymbals from Jesse Simpson and just bought a 22" from PGB in Montreal yesterday...didn't say I only liked Ks 🤣@@ReverieDrumCo
uh...get rid of that tape residue. Barkeepers Friend would make those shiny.
I wasn't wanting to strip the top patina, so I left it. It was also helping mute some of the wild overtones.
I'm vintage
Hahaha
Note there are also Canadian K's & A's made 77 to 80 before the Canadian Zildjian company under RObert Ziljian had a major disagreement with the family and started Sabian , Note where Robert Started the Canadian Factory he took a lot of the best cymbal smiths from the american factory .
Yeah, those EAK rides are killer.
@@ReverieDrumCo Yep I've got a 22' that's unbelievable !!
The tin and copper theory is utter nonsense. Bronze age (6 thousand y.o.) helmets and swords, if well preserved (not on the bottom of the see, for example, but sealed in a tomb), are not brittle or loosing structural integrity.
It’s not a theory and It’s not at all nonsense. Cymbals are very thin and make sound by the vibrations after being struck. When they hit around 50yrs old the tin and copper have gravitated towards their kind which weakens the alloy (and being struck by drummers often reveals this fact). Old bronze helmets and swords are much thicker and aren’t consistently moved and/or vibrated. The decrease in structural integrity would not be near as apparent in those items.
@@ReverieDrumCo and viktor, I might be able to articulate this a little better than most, given my background in geology. I think the general concept behind the hypothesis that Reverie cites borrows from some ideas about glass, which is a technically an amorphous solid, neither a true solid or liquid, because the atoms in glass do not typically solidify into an organized array (i.e. a crystal). There is debate if glass were to sit for millions of years if it would deform under the influence of gravity of its own accord (old windows with thicker bottoms are erroneously cited as an example of this, which is actually due to a convention of using the thicker side of blown glass in window manufacturing, but I digress...). To the best of my knowledge, I don't think there have been any experimental examples of deformation of glass at surface temperature and pressure.
If you google amorphous metals, you'll find a good figure titled "metallurgy for dummies" depicting how alloyed metals can also have heterogeneity in their otherwise orderly molecular crystalline structure. I think the hypothetical concept is that along these zones of molecular misalignment, where atoms are not as tightly held in place, there can be some slight rearrangement of the crystalline structure as copper would tend to rebond with copper and tin with tin. Such movement would require some amount of transition state energy for the rearrangement to transpire, and I suppose the hypothesis is that the kinetic energy of a vibrating cymbal (or simply the heat energy in ambient air -- or for that matter some other chemical mechanism) is sufficient to overcome the required transition state differential. A metallurgist or chemist would need to chime in to qualify this hypothesis feasible, although the "metallurgy" figure suggests that instances of "micro-amorphism" in alloys are generally known by metallurgists to be present, at least along extremely localized, molecular-scale portions of an imperfectly cooled metal alloy. The question regarding cymbals is whether these imperfections are pervasive enough across the bulk mass of a cymbal be be substantive: are there enough of them to make an audible difference?
Personally, as a non-metallurgist (so what do I know?), while I concede there may be some amount of "set-up" in a bronze alloy as micro-amorphisms adjust to a lower transition state (maybe), I suspect that molecular sorting along heterogeneities in alloy is minimal compared to the bulk mass of the cymbal and that once a lower energy state is achieved in the heterogeneities, it is unlikely to extrapolate across the rest of the cymbal. That a bronze cymbal left to its own devices would eventually separate into its component elements is simply not going to happen without a considerable amount of energy to break bonds and a process to physically separate the components, even over millions of years held in a tank of a noble gas (as oxidation would rust it out before separation could occur in ambient air). For example, we mine metal ores that have been sitting in place for millions of years with out separating into their component elements.
If we're just talking characteristics of the bronze, I think that the inclusion of "impurities" in the older alloys is a much more likely candidate for why older cymbals sound better. After all, anecdotal evidence says they used to toss an arbitrary "hand full" of silver coins into the molten alloys when they made the classic Ks. I also speculate that somewhat more random, human manufacturing processes such as hammering contribute to some "chaos" or randomness in the end product, resulting in a sound that we perceive as a rich or lush sound compared to a methodical and mechanical manufacturing process. Not to mention, deliberate human manufacturing processes that talented cymbal smiths such as yourself utilize to make cymbals sound great!
Edited to say: great video! I enjoyed it!
Awesome. I’m not even vintage. Boomer cymbals you mean haha
Old K's are worth it! Please do NOT mod them!
If a customer genuinely feels like a mod will make their cymbal playable (to them) and something they would love to use, then I have zero issue modding them. Some disagree, and that's totally ok! To each his own.
So much nonsense said here. Avedis/Armand weren't involved with old K's. If there's so many dogs, where are they all?
Well, the "dogs" comment was a poor choice of words on my part. Should've said something to the effect of "they vary widely in the perceived sonic quality, but that is up for debate". I do know that A and K are separate entities as well. It's the consequence of not having a script! haha. Other that that, I stand by everything I said.
@@ReverieDrumCo No, there's no walking back your absolute garbage opinion. YOU SAID 90% of Old K's did not sound good. That's straight up bullshit. Armand and Avedis never sorted through Old K's., ... as a matter of fact they dragged Gretsch (Importer of K Zildjians) into court over DECADES (because they were jealous and threatened). Why would they bother if %90 of old K's were "dogs". WHERE ARE ALL THE TERRIBLE OLD K's????
@@ReverieDrumCo How the hell did Gretsch import a product with a %90 rate of "sounds bad". Get real.
@@CymbalVault No need for the aggression. We can agree to disagree. All the best, Timothy
@@ReverieDrumCo Nope, you're just spreading utter nonsense