What I got from the comments: Commander players: _heavy breathing_ Pauper players: _heavier breathing_ Modern players: _continues sacrificing virgins for fetch lands reprints_ Legacy players: _too busy driving their Lamborghini on their yacht to notice_
As a Legacy player I’m very interested in how I can get to a state where I’m driving my Lamborghini or yacht because both of those are far beyond affordable for me. I thought I’m automatically filthy rich if I play the format. Please share how all these Legacy player get to this state of wealth if you’re able.
+2 You may ask for an Oubliette reprint, if you do so, draw a card. -3 Exile all permanents that came inside a Walmart product. -8 You get an emblem with "Whenever your opponent plays a creature spell, if it's not a Merfolk, counter it unless they pay 2".
Here's a cool idea. How about in the next silver-border set we have some "famous personalities" themed cards? I'd love to get my hands on a foil "professor" card!!
I love when Prof plays the advocate of both sides by pointing to both positives and negatives about something.Thia set is something I'm going to wait a bit before making my decision on this set.
Yeah, because the situation is very tricky, we are treading in unexplored territory here. Prof is well known for presenting both sides in the argument anyway
And this works, allows players to be creative with older cards and make iconic cards more iconic like Blue-Eyes Saga and the "recent" Dark Magician Support
@@philipearakaki while I agree, it is nice to play with old cards, the decks you mentioned aren't really meta, as most decks built around old cards. In Yu-Gi-Oh, the inclusion of older cards is as staples, or it ends up being new degenerate combos using old cards no one has ever heard of, which gets banned before too long to push new product
Modern already has around 10 thousand cards in it. How many of those cards dont see play? Power creep already exists. It's been in modern since its inception. I dont really see a non unique argument here.
I don't play Modern because it is too expensive for me (and, as you say, this doesn't seem likely to help), but I am excited to see what interesting cards come out that I can use in Commander and even Pauper.
Long time Yu-Gi-Oh player here; modern horizons in my opinion is REALLY scary, because it feels like a Yu-Gi-Oh expansions. The power creep which comes from a new booster packs can be lethal for a game, crossing fingers for this set to be not too impactful...
Also a former yugioh player, allow me to explain: Yugioh's primary market for sets is a lone eternal format per region (OCG and TCG diverged since card releases in Japanese are always a few months ahead except for exclusives, eh just realize that it's a bizzare mess of a system) so, each set has to displace old decks from the meta. But, with mtg, one perk of normal sets is that the set is split between commander, standard, legacy, modern, draft, etc. That means that you minimize incentives for wotc to pull a BFZ-eldrazi on us by allowing them to focus on a metagame where cards constantly rotate out, allowing them to not intentionally try to displace existing archetypes. But, the risk with Horizons is that every old deck could suffer the fate of twin.
Well... worst case scenario the banlist fixes everything, right? In all seriousness I believe they'll push a couple of cards to "shake" the format and test others that may seem too powerful with "Magus of the" style cards to test the waters febore going all in. If successful in the long run a power creep may happen. But a format between modern and standard will always be an option.
@@Rooibos_Marvelous the issue is modern losing its stability. i agrees with the comparison to yugioh. archetypes come and go each year, and no-one plays a lot of the old cards unless they essentially make an old card into an archetype...
@@SorinCloud That's a you problem, had Eclipses on my EDH deck since I started playing in June of last year and only two have split due to improper handling. Perhaps you aren't shuffling correctly?
So this is a side set that is coming out at a higher price then a standard set. But the cards will be legal in modern. So in other words the good cards in this set will cost an insane amount making modern even less accessable. Nice wizards nice.
Caleb m actually it shouldn’t be that expensive while yes the cards won’t be pauper cheap but this set does not have a limited run unlike other supplemental sets like conspiracy or battle bond so as long as people want it they will keep on printing it
@@chuggaaconroyfanboy1 sure, but the cards will be more expensive than standard cards can possibly be due to expected value. A box has a fixed price and the maximum cost of a given rare or mythic is based on that price. If these boxes are significantly more expensive then the chase cards will accordingly be significantly more expensive.
Basically, every 3 boxes (approximately) you get a rare sheet - so what happens is that the total price of all the mythics plus twice the rares tends to be equal to the cost of three booster boxes. If there’s enough volume of interest in the set for mass openings, at least. That’d be the wholesale price of boxes, of course. The profit margin more or less comes from the foils and chaff you open alongside the rares. If, in the extreme, you have a set where everything is chaff except one mythic - that mythic will cost (no more than) 200 bucks, while the set is in print. Plus a certain amount of demand is provided for from drafts and normal people cracking packs, of course.
i really hope that they use this set to power up archetypes that currently have no chance in modern. for example supporting underpowered tribes like minotaurs or making functional reprints of unique cards so that one can build a consistent deck out of them that can compete with the current used decks. I am somewhat afraid that they do not do that but instead will cause powercreep with better versions of cards that already exist in modern. but i hope for the best and am curious about the set.
How about something like Eldrazi temple land cycles that add 1 colourless or 2 of same colour to cast certain spell. But of course high cmc creature tribes. RR: Dragon UU: Octopus, Whale,Kraken, leviathan BB: Demon WW: Angel GG: Wurm, Hydra, Dinosaur
Same. As a former modern fanatic, I play almost exclusively commander now. But I nearly cannot contain my excitement for the commander playables that will come out of this. All in all, I hope modern doesn't die, however.
As someone who doesn’t play modern, I don’t see how this truly solves the problem of the high price point of getting into modern - which is likely any other persons problem with modern, that doesn’t play it. Every reprint set has been made for modern players to have access to cards that have gotten too high in price, but I don’t quite understand why WOTC hasn’t made a product that is an introduction to modern. Maybe a challenger type deck, fetch-less and shock-less, would be great, but there’s still problems with that. I want to be excited for this set, but I can’t see any reason to get it besides to draft.
I'm hoping for reprints of Diabolic Edict, Counterspell, Flusterstorm and maybe Swords to Plowshares. Maybe even Vindicate or Pernicious Deed. Maybe Baleful Strix, maybe not. I want good cards that promote interactivity and allow fair decks to compete and thrive against linear decks. Those are (imho) the best games Modern has to offer, and having broad answers allows the format to become way more fun and engaging.
@@SephonDK lol Path isn't undermining Black, instead Dredge and Arclight Phoenix are undermining black. Why run destroy spells when everything comes back from the graveyard?
@@a.velderrain8849 "lol"? Path is widely believed to be a mistake by Wizards due to it being so much more effective than black removal in regards to mana efficiency, to the degree that it's either a break or close to it. The exile clause is not the problem. Ask R&D. Recursion and graveyard.synergy are not the same at all, they are part of the game. Do enchantments undermine black too? You're kind of nonsensical in regards to my point here.
You echo many of my own thoughts, Professor! One major concern I have as a budget-focused creator is the impact it has on consumer confidence for the format. It's really sketchy spending money on modern cards right now because we don't know what the format will look like in a few months, and if these sets come out annually I'm going to feel very uncomfortable investing money in the format. I have a very limited reach, but I've been trying to make as many people aware of this as possible. The metagame WILL be different in a few months, so BE CAREFUL investing in modern decks. I'm also not confident they can create cards for modern on a regular basis without destroying the format in the process. I don't mean to sound overly critical of WOTC, but they have trouble keeping Standard fun and balanced and that format is slower and has less cards. I'm not saying Modern Horizons itself is going to ruin modern, but if these are released regularly it's only a matter of time. =/
I admire this man so much. He has done exactly what so many people dream of, build a career of his passion. Here his background in academia shines through with the clear structure, intro and conclusion and balancing pros and cons against each other. Not only is he entertaining. He is brilliant as well! Always a good feeling when I see a new video coming up!
You didn't mention Oubliette once! I'm excited to get new cards as always, but afraid that the price tag will be too high which is counter productive. It's stupid making a new set for modern and selling it for 250$ so it's less accessible. I hope that won't be the case but without msrp who knows what will be...
The set doesn't sell for $250. A booster box does. That means booster packs are a fraction of that. This means you can win some magic and use store credit, or trade in some cards and open packs, or wait for singles and trade or buy the ones you need. If you used to buy a box, now buy a half box....
I think a better implementation of Modern Horizons would have had 50 new Legacy cards, 50 new Modern cards, and 150 needed reprints. Putting 200 new cards into Modern could have catastrophic consequences for the format, and a smaller batch of new cards would both increase excitement for them, and also allow Wizards to only use genuinely cool cards that are their best designs. Also, putting needed reprints in the set would help reassure players that the decks they love are here to stay, and are not going to get thrown to the wayside by power creep. It would also be really sad for someone to watch the Mythic Championship in London, go out all excited and get a deck to play Modern, and then have their deck invalidated by Modern Horizons a couple of months later. Modern has consistently been one of the best formats, and I just hope that it stays that way. I really do believe in the Play Design Team, and I hope they can pull this off!
2weeks ago I got a interrest in MTG, I have never played it before but I have experience in playing card games like Hearthstone and Elderscrolls legends. While those two kept me busy for a while I missed the feeling of playing with people in person, I collected marvel and dc cards when I was allot younger which I loved and I have no doubt that im going to love collecting magic cards. Ive been obsessing over MTG these past two weeks, ive watched hundreds of youtube videos and ive gotten really good advice from your channel like where to start. Im from South-Africa and its not that difficult to get cards here but its just so damn expensive, so ill be saving to buy a Planewalkers deck. Until then ill be glued to your channel, keep up the good work!
My top wanted Legacy prints into Modern: - Baleful Strix - Psychatog - Counterspell - Containment Priest - No Mercy - Scroll Rack - Black Vise - Grindstone - Diabolic Intent - Vindicate - Doomsday - Diabolic Edict - Opposition - Veteran Explorer - Astral Slide - Nimble Mongoose - Enchantress’s Presence - Goblin Lackey These are definitely my top picks! I know a lot of these are pretty big bombs and I dont expect most of them to be reprinted, but just a few would be awesome!
Make Eldrazi the new goblin - let them into all the planes. Like Kamigawa. Especially Kamigawa. Why not introduce a new Titan? Why not have some characters undergo Eldrazi Conscription? Eh? EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE??
You've hit the nail on the head - Power creep and pseudo rotation. I am a EDH main that likes to draft and to a much lesser extent build certain constructed decks. EDH is so appealing because I can build with old stuff that is affordable and overpowered. Those old overpowered cards were more or less future proof. Now there's a new avenue (outside of the annual precons) to sink cash into that is going to power up COMMANDER!?!? Power creep sucks. It is a total cash grab. I get that new stuff has to be printed to push things, but the velocity of new relevant cards to non-rotating formats needs to be a trickle, not a flood. Many players, myself included will loose interest if the only way to keep up in non-rotating formats is to shell out Standard-like amounts of cash to maintain parity in the arms race. Players will abandon Magic if a new player down the road can shell out $20 for a precon and $50 for add-ons for a deck that is going to hose older $1000+ dollar decks with reserve list gems.
Not only is this a great video but your little excursion on the commander issue made me aware of a much larger problem with eternal formats in general... great job as always!
My money's on: Armageddon, Counterspell, Mother of Runes, Oubliette, Dack Fayden, FTK, Cycling Lands, Deep Analysis, Portent, Dismiss, Containment Priest, Living Death, Vindicate. Foil and Ruination I like for Modern, but they're kinda borderline. For new cards, I'm imagining some kind of nonbasic land hate like Back to Basics, maybe some follow-ups to the Future Sight Lands like River of Tears or Grove of the Burnwillows, maybe some cards to push B-tier archetypes like Faeries or Elves or Abzan Midrange or Zoo or Living End or Affinity or Bogles. For those saying Force of Will and Wasteland, Wizards has made pretty clear that they don't want to make Modern into Legacy. Oh, one last thing. In Eventide, they had a cycle or Retrace hybrid-enemy-colored cards: Call the Skybreaker, Spitting Image, Waves of Aggression, and Worm Harvest. THERE'S NO BW CARD! Please Wizards finish that cycle. It doesn't even have to be a good card, just finish it.
Great video, Prof! You hit the nail right on the head with why Horizons is both terrifying and exciting at the same time. I just wanna be able to still competitively play our Merfolk when the dust settles!
I totally disagree with your point about "rotation". Good cards will stay good, you should have no guarantee that a good card will always be the best or that your deck will always be tier 1. One of the big reason the cards for modern are so expensive is because the best decks are good for so long that the supply dries up. If the decks were more dynamic prices would go down.
Paying $300 a year to update your Standard deck is still more expensive in the long run than paying $1000 for a Modern deck that will remain relevant for years and adding on maybe $100 a year.
I am excited about the set, but a rotation due to power creep is exactly why I stopped playing Yugioh years ago. The reason o buy new cards was because most of the old ones were just not as good anymore. This does occur in modern but to a much lesser degree. I am primarily a commander player but modern is always fun on the side to get that one on one experience. I hope this cards add variety instead of power and we see new decks played, not because they over power the rest, but because they offer a new play experience. This is of course magical christmasland thinking so, fingers crossed!
Thanks for such a patient and measured response, Professor. I really appreciate your concern for reprints and accessibility balanced with game play concerns. Hopefully, Horizons is an opportunity to enable more decks and push more interaction in the format without dropping new staples behind a mythic rarity. That might just be wishful thinking, but I think it's important to remember what the goals of the set are when it finally comes out.
Great intro. Gavin gave a great non answer, and I look forward to seeing him dance around the spiders questions in the future like the majestic butterfly he is.
If u love playing magic u should look into 7 point highlander “Australian highlander”. In this format I can use any card that’s not banned in vintage. It works with a point system so it’s a very fair format. Can’t wait for modern horizons to see what it adds to highlander :)
Thank you, Prof, for asking all the questions I have about what Wizards is up to with this set. I'm not sure how they can design a set for Modern that doesn't include any reprints of expensive and high-demand Modern staples, but has enough good cards (both new and reprints) for players to want to buy it, and that doesn't cause some degree of upheaval to the Modern format. As you say, the new cards in this set have got to be pretty darn good if they expect people to buy it, and if the cards are that good then change is definitely coming. But what is Wizards' ultimate goal here? Are they trying to shake up Modern to the point where many of the current top decks are no longer as relevant? Can they even achieve that with one set? Will they focus on creating new cards that spike lower and mid-tier Modern decks? Or maybe print cards that power up various mono-colored strategies so there is less of a need for fetch and shock lands in the format? Whatever their goal is here I think it's either going to be a total game-changer or a bust, which obviously makes it a very risky move. I am certainly hoping for the best even if this is both exciting and worrisome at the same time.
I'd be lying if I said I'm not excited about this, but eternal formats are the reasons I play magic. Enforcing a practical rotation by printing cards above the curve will make modern more dynamic, but it will become essentially a glorified standard-commander hybrid. I think the real problem is that if new modern horizons sets regularly come out the format will suffer as a whole. Yu-gi-oh has this characteristic. Once it had a back and forth flow, which steadily became faster and faster to the point that right now the games are decided on the first turn. Magic shouldn't suffer as much thanks to the mana costs restricting the players, but I can easily see combo decks going out of control one after the other and half the game being over by turn 2 or 3.
@@passedjudgements4729 Fairly accurate description. However I would compare it more to a coin toss. Who has the first turn wins the game 90% of the times. And a card worth 60€ is worth 5€ 2 months after printing.
@@passedjudgements4729 I need to disagree on your comment considering Legacy, I can't speak about Vintage, I don't know much about it, but Legacy is the most interactive format right now: strong control cards, good synergies, high power creatures and more strong effects. The idea about Legacy being a turn 2 format comes from the fast combo decks like ANT, TES and Spanish Inquisition. Those decks are strong and fast, but the whole format balances itself incorporating Counterspells (Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce) and Prison Control cards like Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void. While Turn 2 and 3 are the most important in a Legacy game, they don't need to be game deciding, depending on your strategy you can easily come back in later turns and change the tide in your favor.
What many magic's players don't think about is how this set will impact new "usual" sets : because wizard will not be forced to print modern cards in the standard sets it means there is a less risk of really powerful cards, or useless cards which were intended to be played in modern. This means more chance to have a more diversified standard and less useless card in the rare and mythic slot (for standard). So I think there is even more potential to be a good thing.
As someone who doesn't play Modern but would like to, I think this sounds like a great concept. Its an on-ramp of sorts to a deep and inaccessible format. I also enjoy Limited, and this sounds like it could be a really amazing limited environment.
@@LogoMotive11 yet, if you consider the diversity of gameplay you get from a single deck as part of the equation, a commander deck delivers a hell of a lot more fun for the buck. Also, there are plenty of casual commander multiplayer groups that just durdle around and use second or third row commanders to really tease out deckbuilding ideas. Modern always has a competitiveness to it that leads to an expensive arms race.
@@LogoMotive11 then let me put it this way: Any format brought to its maximum competitive state (except pauper maybe) is utterly expensive. But to find out which format is more accessible, go and build a commander deck for $100 and play it in your local commander group. You will have loads of fun and even win from time to time (you can even do that with precons). Do that with a modern deck, limited to a $100 budged, in the same game store and you will have a bad time... You can obviously build rediculously expensive commander decks, bling them out, run legacy staples, etc. But for your commander deck to be viable in a regular commander environment, you dont have to build it like that. The modern format and the community for modern are based on a completely different mindset, focusing way more on competitiveness than creativity. So your $100 homebrew will most likely turn out to be an utter failure. That is what people talk about when they call modern and legacy inaccessible.
Don't always agree with you, but this is spot on. I just bought into a modern deck with Ultimate Masters and now I worry that format is being replaced with a new rotating format (as you described, I understand cards won't actually leave the format). The big draw for me to modern was the non-rotating slow evolution of the format. I'm very excited to see legacy cards going into modern, but very worried about the impact on the format of the new cards. Since I'm a big standard player before I knew that I would be getting the cards for modern while playing standard, but now that won't be true. I'm also just angry after having spent a fair bit of money to get into modern a few months ago and looking at my deck potentially becoming obsolete with this set. I was already working towards legacy, so the legacy reprints are not as scary.
For the reprints of older cards.. Please give me every UGx Threshold and Madness deck cards from the Odyssey block not yet printed in modern sets. (Nimble Mongoose, Circular Logic, Wonder etc). But more importantly, unless Horizons contain functional reprints of fetches, Snapcaster etc., wizards needs to get reprinting those ASAP. It's already years overdue for a bunch of those pricey cards and they're literally losing players due to being too slow on those reprints.
He said "budget" fetch land. For example, a single-type fetch would be almost as good for 2 and 3 color decks, but cost about as much as a shock land. Dual-type fetches are really only needed for 4 color decks. Five color decks just play cavern of souls.
Does anyone else find it funny that Serra is considered too powerful for Standard, when they are about to release a Planeswalker centric set? Does this mean that none of the coming planeswalkers are at least as powerful as Serra?
Story of the next set is about the walkers and not ravnica, they never set the set will mechanically be about them. so lots of cards focusing on the gatewatch and co in the art instead of ravnica people
bluspidr it’s actually been confirmed that there will be 36 new planeswalker cards in the set, and each booster pack will contain a Planeswalker card. However this probably means that a lot of them will be watered down but also likely to made with limited in mind, so I do believe that Serra might be too powerful for standard. However, the real problem is that she is dead in the current storyline so it would be impossible to see Serra in a standard set.
I am excited prof. Here's hoping for some great additions to the format! But the reprint problem troubles me greatly as well. Guess I'll just have to accept the fact that modern staples will forever be expensive
Nice video, Professor: thank you! As you have many times before, you've again enriched the broader conversation. At least one more elephant in the room remains with Modern Horizons, though: why will it be so much more expensive than a Standard release? This feels worse to me than the seemingly opportunistic price gouging of enfranchised players with Ultimate Masters. Unlike that set, this set won't be "optional" for competitive Modern players.
Would be insane, I mean the original conterspell is not allowed and then *bang* reprint the best counter spell ever for the modern format :D Let's see^^
Mr Kitten I have to say I think there will be no reprints of free spells in this set. Would be a nice reprint for a card. I doubt that any no blue players would enjoy having FoW in the formats though. Along with other free spells such as Daze, or Fireblast, as other examples
Introducing Modern Lands, where all of your mana base need are met in one place. Featuring art from your favorite sets such as lorwyn art fetch lands, new phyrexia shock lands and basic lands from dragons maze. -love wotc. (Only$599, shipping not included)
I've got a playable Vampire tribal deck that competes with top tier decks. Planning on rolling the dice with it at the Philly open this weekend. But yeah I'd say it's still missing an oomf. If I finish 5-4 in day 1 that will be a successful test in my mind. Pairs up decently against GDS and Dredge. Old school Affinity is abysmal and in my match ups against mono red Phoenix it's a poor matchup but usually comes down to running out of gas on both sides and them hitting better top decks.
Professor and fellow students, making some version of a mostly/strictly better fetch would have a small impact on the cost of Fetches in general and the already low cost "Khans" reprinted fetches. As, a deck like blue moon, as an example, would just run 4 of those and 4 scalding tarns. And your broader point about, having a mostly better or strictly better fetch would just become the "new" price barrier.
For someone who has been waiting for the right moment to dive into modern, I think that this will be a good opportunity. These new cards will change up modern significantly enough for some new innovative decks to make a splash. Looking forward to it.
It makes one wonder about all of Gavin's other answers too. Especially knowing how long it takes them to makes sets (This was 1,000% in the works at the time of the interview). I mean, he's pretty obviously not being honest in the way honestly is typically thought about. So much so, that I think it's fair to say that he was being dishonest.
I think it's unfair to call it dishonesty, even if that's technically true. People's jobs often rely on what information they give out and when they choose to do it, and Verhey is far from the top of his corporate chain. I wouldn't worry too much about it, personally.
@@druidobianco9734 I think Verhey wanted to reach out to the community as much as he was allowed to, considering the unrest that the silence of WotC has bred over the years. Anything is better than silence, if you ask me.
Paul Johnson It’s extremely unlikely, but there is the possibility that he didn’t actually know about Horizons, it might have been designed entirely be a specialized team that weren’t allowed to speak about it. More likely he was told that he couldn’t talk about it, but regardless it’s not a reason to doubt his honesty, more to doubt WotC’s information release policies.
Hey Prof, love the video, but I have a small complaint/critique. That segment where they talked about reprinting anything you showed the clip where they talked about possibly adding counterspell but not the part where they immediately after saying "we are not saying counterspell will be in the set." I just think the message was a little unfairly misleading but I got the message. But great video and great conversation!
The hype is "New cards for modern!" The reality is that Kamigawa dragons were bombs in limited and therefore great for modern masters. I'm under the impression we are getting a little less Ultimate Masters and a lot more Kamigawa Dragons.
@@Lazyman18125 "Kamigawa Dragons" is more a feeling than a set of cards in my statement. Think opening balefire dragon in ultimatr masters, like yeah this was a bomb in limited but ultimately this is draft chaff, it will be years before it possibly gains any value. These will be new cards and reprints outside modern, but there is no world where we see 200+ playables in a set. There will be a lot of cards designed to balance limited or are ok in commander on a budget is what I was implying.
Notoriousadd1 Ah I see what you mean now. I do agree with you as well, I don’t think may cards from this set will see much but fringe play, aside from possibly 2-3 staple cards
Watching this video 9 months later is actually scary. Two thirds ended up being draft chaff and the last third consists of sideboard cards, some nice additions like Vista and FoN and stupidly pushed cards that already needed a ban in modern and legacy with some more on B&R's watchlist...or homogenized entire strategies. In the end, Modern Horizons accomplished two things: the modern format overall is more expensive now and we now know that WotC is willing to jeopardize eternal formats just for the sake of more money; with a single set.
Thinking about stuff like the fetch lands never being reprinted makes me frustrated, and I don't even play modern! I need the fetchlands for commander, and while I have some already, I didn't get them from the original sets they were in, I got them from lucky pulls from Masters or trading with people.
Druido Bianco Shocklands in Return to Return to Ravnica did make me hopeful. I'm hoping we can go back to Zendikar to get the enemy fetches... I never played the original Zendikar but BFZ was one of my favourite draft formats.
what is the ratio of relevant modern cards to the total number of available cards currently? of the 254 cards, let's say about 10% will be modern-relevant which will in turn be about 2% of modern-relevant cards. They have to be absurdly powerful to totally warp the format. Surely they'll push out a few cards to fringe-playability, but we got a play-design-team now, so what could go wrong? Unrelatedly, I'm pretty confident that fetchlands will hit standard again (after the shocklands rotate). After seeing the powerlevel of war of the spark, fetchlands do not seem off at all, unless you mix them with double-colored fetchables. All in all: power creep, but not universal power creep. The impact on non-creature spells has increase far less dramatically than creatures have, making it slowly possible to reprint old favorites again.
I've recently come out of a Magic hiatus thanks to Pauper, and I am really excited to see what Horizons brings to that format more so than for Modern actually.
The main problem I can see with straight-to-modern sets is that it's basically going to render standard sets useless in older formats, less and less (if any) cards from standard sets going forward will be viable in modern, surely leading to less sales of standard booster boxes, which will in turn increase the secondary market cost of the very odd standard card that does find a home in modern.
I almost wonder if we will we will see a schism in the modern community. Purists that only play with standard first cards, and horizons players, who play with the made for modern cards.
Some thoughts: - Needed Reprints everlasting problem may be addressed in future releases. There are many variables in this release already, addressing this problem here as well may distort the results analysis. - I'm hoping for new cards to play with good mechanics that score badly in a Storm Scale. For example, Kamigawa lovers (me included) may have new (and possibly better designed) Samurais, Kamis, Ninjas and etc. There are nothing wrong with mechanics like bushido or ninjutsu, but the whole plane is compromised, which makes it difficult to be revisited in Standard. - Since the only injection of new cards comes from Standard, and Standard has many design restrictions that may not allign with Modern's style, new cards made for Modern is a way to make the format more interesting, creating new possibilities. Dynamizing the environment won't necessaily bring rotation to the format.
I'm actually really excited for this I think this will breathe some new blood into modern and we'll do it in a lot of good ways. The Legacy free prints like you said will bring a balanced hopefully non reserved list Legacy format effectively into modern as far as needed modern reprints just because this modern Horizons set doesn't contain modern reprint doesn't mean future ones and that also doesn't preclude the possibility of some other reprint set which Gavin hinted at
How can you complain about it not being interactive when it’s the most competitive format? So you’re telling my I should LET my opponent win and not bring the best cards possible? What backwards logic is that?
@@DeeJaysWord I'm not sure what you mean by "the most competitive format" isn't any format that has high level sanctioned tournament play competitive? I never said people should dilute their decks. My point was that right now the best decks in modern are not very interactive and I hope Horizons fixes this.
@@theta-8 I dont mean to be rude, but do play modern? There are many people complaining about how modern is a 2-4 turn kill who dont actually play the format. I play modern more than any other format and that isn't what it is. Occasionally sure, but the majority of the decks are midrange and control. Many aggro decks can not reach that win on turn 3 or 4 what you said.
I am excited, I usually play everything but the kitchen sink at my lgs when I feel like being non-infect friendly. This set I feel is going to make that easier to do if they make the packs more accessable compared to master sets.
I wanted to start with modern because of the consistancy Now I feel unsafe to invest in a good deck I think I will just not start playing Magic .. The new set will be troublesome
Im exited for this new set and hope to see what it is going to contribute to the format it might also bring cards that help compliment existing decks and not just make them obselete. I would like to see memory lapse added to modern
Was stoneforge ever modern in legal. I understand it is in a modern legal set but wasn't it just banned from the beginning. Could that mean the card is in this set and unbanned?
I'm excited for the sole purpose of new variation in commander. It's the only format I play anymore because I'm not fond of my local modern and standard groups, so in my mind this is a 254 card made-for-EDH set which makes me happy
Try modern budget decks. Still need a few bucks but budget versions of death and taxes. Burn. UW control. Merfolk. Goblins. Spirits. GW hate bears. Depending on your budget/collection about 50 bucks will get you into modern with a competitive but still not top tier
i strongly agree about the rotation part. there will be certain decks akd cards better played with each set that comes out instead of the same old sets played forever
Very excited about this product since I'm just a casual player who plays modern and gradually updates my existing decks with new cards. Interesting that you didn't mention the boxes will be well over $200 bucks though!
I don't play modern, I mostly play commander. I dont know the effects this set will have on modern, but I've always enjoyed having new cards released in the commander format. To me it brings new ideas and possibilities for building new decks. It keeps it interesting. Yes some made for commander cards are powerful, but I think the constant influx of new cards releasing is always going to change the meta. People are still going to play older cards, but now they just have new choices. If left alone, eternal formats can even stagnate. Whenever new sets release, I'm always looking for new cards to tweak a deck or to build a deck around. Time will show on this release and its effect on modern, but I welcome the new cards for commander
I don't play modern, but I sympathize with the power creep problem as a commander player. At the least, if these cards are on average just the right amount of power level to not replace a vast amount of modern cards, but perhaps be budgeted alternatives to certain lands and effects, it will in action be a softer "natural rotation" compared to a strict set rotation like standard. It is, still however, a big change to modern, be open MTG players. And hopeful, it could be a good thing.
What I got from the comments:
Commander players: _heavy breathing_
Pauper players: _heavier breathing_
Modern players: _continues sacrificing virgins for fetch lands reprints_
Legacy players: _too busy driving their Lamborghini on their yacht to notice_
This deserves way more likes
Legacy Player Tim Auburn III: Why good sir I have never been happier! Look at my playset of black lotus, plebeian.
You’re confusing Legacy and Vintage. The latter are the ones with lambs on yachts, legacy players are riding their bike around their sailboat.
As a Legacy player I’m very interested in how I can get to a state where I’m driving my Lamborghini or yacht because both of those are far beyond affordable for me. I thought I’m automatically filthy rich if I play the format. Please share how all these Legacy player get to this state of wealth if you’re able.
Ben they bought out of paper and into MTGO, invest remaining into bicycle and sailboat.
Manual powered lambo, handmade wooden yacht.
How so we start a petition to replace Jace with the Professor as the iconic blue planeswalker? That intro was awesome!
+2 You may ask for an Oubliette reprint, if you do so, draw a card.
-3 Exile all permanents that came inside a Walmart product.
-8 You get an emblem with "Whenever your opponent plays a creature spell, if it's not a Merfolk, counter it unless they pay 2".
The Masked Man underrated comment
Foil copies of The Professor, Arbiter of Formats should be printed so they show all his various neckties depending which angle you view the card.
...wow.. just wow.. your awesome. You had me at replace Jace
Here's a cool idea. How about in the next silver-border set we have some "famous personalities" themed cards? I'd love to get my hands on a foil "professor" card!!
I love when Prof plays the advocate of both sides by pointing to both positives and negatives about something.Thia set is something I'm going to wait a bit before making my decision on this set.
Yeah, because the situation is very tricky, we are treading in unexplored territory here. Prof is well known for presenting both sides in the argument anyway
Rotating format where the cards don't actually rotate out, but are power crept out? Sounds like Yu-Gi-Oh lol
And this works, allows players to be creative with older cards and make iconic cards more iconic like Blue-Eyes Saga and the "recent" Dark Magician Support
@@philipearakaki while I agree, it is nice to play with old cards, the decks you mentioned aren't really meta, as most decks built around old cards. In Yu-Gi-Oh, the inclusion of older cards is as staples, or it ends up being new degenerate combos using old cards no one has ever heard of, which gets banned before too long to push new product
Yeah, I definitely think the design people at Wizards took a page out of Konomi's book with this new modern monetization strategy
Modern already has around 10 thousand cards in it. How many of those cards dont see play? Power creep already exists. It's been in modern since its inception. I dont really see a non unique argument here.
I think the opposite is going to happen. They won’t release anything good for a T1 deck, just a bunch of medium powered cardboard chaff
I don't play Modern because it is too expensive for me (and, as you say, this doesn't seem likely to help), but I am excited to see what interesting cards come out that I can use in Commander and even Pauper.
Same thought I had.
lol commander costs more than modern
My exact thoughts.
Davide Dettori no it doesn’t.
@@_somerandomguyontheinternet_ well commander can cost way more than modern.
Power up and down with a snap of their fingers? Mr. Professor, I don’t feel so good...
Thanos works for Wizards now :P
Long time Yu-Gi-Oh player here; modern horizons in my opinion is REALLY scary, because it feels like a Yu-Gi-Oh expansions. The power creep which comes from a new booster packs can be lethal for a game, crossing fingers for this set to be not too impactful...
With the only two cards we have so far being Serra and Therapist, I don't see it being to deadly.
That's true, but if the entire set would be like those two cards, I don't think it can be a success for WOTC's wallets
Also a former yugioh player, allow me to explain:
Yugioh's primary market for sets is a lone eternal format per region (OCG and TCG diverged since card releases in Japanese are always a few months ahead except for exclusives, eh just realize that it's a bizzare mess of a system) so, each set has to displace old decks from the meta. But, with mtg, one perk of normal sets is that the set is split between commander, standard, legacy, modern, draft, etc. That means that you minimize incentives for wotc to pull a BFZ-eldrazi on us by allowing them to focus on a metagame where cards constantly rotate out, allowing them to not intentionally try to displace existing archetypes. But, the risk with Horizons is that every old deck could suffer the fate of twin.
Well... worst case scenario the banlist fixes everything, right?
In all seriousness I believe they'll push a couple of cards to "shake" the format and test others that may seem too powerful with "Magus of the" style cards to test the waters febore going all in.
If successful in the long run a power creep may happen. But a format between modern and standard will always be an option.
@@Rooibos_Marvelous
the issue is modern losing its stability.
i agrees with the comparison to yugioh. archetypes come and go each year, and no-one plays a lot of the old cards unless they essentially make an old card into an archetype...
No eclipse sleeve was hurt in the making of this video. Do not worry !
Neither dragon shields. They would NEVER split! :D
Just ultra pro sleeves
I've gotten two separate packs of eclipse sleeves and every couple of cards keep splitting when I shuffle.
@@SorinCloud That's a you problem, had Eclipses on my EDH deck since I started playing in June of last year and only two have split due to improper handling. Perhaps you aren't shuffling correctly?
Probably though. Eclipse is garbage
So this is a side set that is coming out at a higher price then a standard set. But the cards will be legal in modern. So in other words the good cards in this set will cost an insane amount making modern even less accessable. Nice wizards nice.
True-Name Nemesis all over again
Caleb m actually it shouldn’t be that expensive while yes the cards won’t be pauper cheap but this set does not have a limited run unlike other supplemental sets like conspiracy or battle bond so as long as people want it they will keep on printing it
@@chuggaaconroyfanboy1 sure, but the cards will be more expensive than standard cards can possibly be due to expected value. A box has a fixed price and the maximum cost of a given rare or mythic is based on that price. If these boxes are significantly more expensive then the chase cards will accordingly be significantly more expensive.
Basically, every 3 boxes (approximately) you get a rare sheet - so what happens is that the total price of all the mythics plus twice the rares tends to be equal to the cost of three booster boxes. If there’s enough volume of interest in the set for mass openings, at least.
That’d be the wholesale price of boxes, of course. The profit margin more or less comes from the foils and chaff you open alongside the rares.
If, in the extreme, you have a set where everything is chaff except one mythic - that mythic will cost (no more than) 200 bucks, while the set is in print. Plus a certain amount of demand is provided for from drafts and normal people cracking packs, of course.
Yeah card's price still insanely expensive, no news on card stock quality.
But hey on the brighter sight they do directly support modern.
$150 Scalding tarns here we gooo
Leatherface got my playset after 2017
Leatherface just play with flooded strand and polluted delta honestly finding basic mountains is overrated
What is the most convenient way to sell these? I have 2 and would prefer the cash.
I don’t know why fetch lands are rare to begin with, they just need to reprint them at uncommon and fix it once and for all
SgfAlex do you wanna no wizards answer?? It’s because they need to preserve the draft format and fetch lands do make for a good draft format
i really hope that they use this set to power up archetypes that currently have no chance in modern. for example supporting underpowered tribes like minotaurs or making functional reprints of unique cards so that one can build a consistent deck out of them that can compete with the current used decks. I am somewhat afraid that they do not do that but instead will cause powercreep with better versions of cards that already exist in modern. but i hope for the best and am curious about the set.
Squirrels!
u need to learn the difference between underpowered and nonexistent. a new merfolk lord? great. a new elf lord? great. a new minotaur lord. come on.
Minotaurs in modern sounds awesome. Any old tribe would be interesting to shake up the format.
How about something like Eldrazi temple land cycles that add 1 colourless or 2 of same colour to cast certain spell. But of course high cmc creature tribes.
RR: Dragon
UU: Octopus, Whale,Kraken, leviathan
BB: Demon
WW: Angel
GG: Wurm, Hydra, Dinosaur
Yes, my pet deck needs a 2 mana stone rain.
But prof. Will the power level be OVER 9000?
no comments?
@@kadenfurr9699 your comment is a comment.
@@zeronxepher now there are 4 comments!
@@kadenfurr9699 that showed him! Now we're at 5! Going ultra instinct!
6!
New cards for commander! Yay! 😋
I do hope modern survives though, despite my complete lack of interest in the format.
Honestly I couldn't care less about modern but oh how I'm looking forward to the commander playable cards.
Same. As a former modern fanatic, I play almost exclusively commander now. But I nearly cannot contain my excitement for the commander playables that will come out of this. All in all, I hope modern doesn't die, however.
I feel the same way, commander is like its own game. I uh... Don't like any rotating formats
As someone who doesn’t play modern, I don’t see how this truly solves the problem of the high price point of getting into modern - which is likely any other persons problem with modern, that doesn’t play it. Every reprint set has been made for modern players to have access to cards that have gotten too high in price, but I don’t quite understand why WOTC hasn’t made a product that is an introduction to modern. Maybe a challenger type deck, fetch-less and shock-less, would be great, but there’s still problems with that. I want to be excited for this set, but I can’t see any reason to get it besides to draft.
Modern is always going to be expensive, but Pauper is always going to be awesome
I'm hoping for reprints of Diabolic Edict, Counterspell, Flusterstorm and maybe Swords to Plowshares. Maybe even Vindicate or Pernicious Deed. Maybe Baleful Strix, maybe not. I want good cards that promote interactivity and allow fair decks to compete and thrive against linear decks. Those are (imho) the best games Modern has to offer, and having broad answers allows the format to become way more fun and engaging.
I fear that the cards might be closer to the power level of Undermine than on those cards you mentioned....
I dont like swords to plowshares. Path is already undermining black. I want the set to reflect a modern color pie.
I could definitely see Vindicate & Pernicious Deed in this set.
@@SephonDK lol Path isn't undermining Black, instead Dredge and Arclight Phoenix are undermining black. Why run destroy spells when everything comes back from the graveyard?
@@a.velderrain8849 "lol"? Path is widely believed to be a mistake by Wizards due to it being so much more effective than black removal in regards to mana efficiency, to the degree that it's either a break or close to it. The exile clause is not the problem. Ask R&D. Recursion and graveyard.synergy are not the same at all, they are part of the game. Do enchantments undermine black too? You're kind of nonsensical in regards to my point here.
You echo many of my own thoughts, Professor! One major concern I have as a budget-focused creator is the impact it has on consumer confidence for the format. It's really sketchy spending money on modern cards right now because we don't know what the format will look like in a few months, and if these sets come out annually I'm going to feel very uncomfortable investing money in the format. I have a very limited reach, but I've been trying to make as many people aware of this as possible. The metagame WILL be different in a few months, so BE CAREFUL investing in modern decks.
I'm also not confident they can create cards for modern on a regular basis without destroying the format in the process. I don't mean to sound overly critical of WOTC, but they have trouble keeping Standard fun and balanced and that format is slower and has less cards. I'm not saying Modern Horizons itself is going to ruin modern, but if these are released regularly it's only a matter of time. =/
The professor always diffuses such crisp passion in his speech, and it's so darn refreshing to listen to. Kudos!
I'm excited for Modern Horizons. I hope some cards are in the set that will slow the Modern meta down. Midrange decks need to make a comeback.
@Aidan Parsekian i mean id like to play a game that lasts longer than 5 or 6 turns. Where is the fun in short games like that?
@Aidan Parsekian Those decks aren't bad, but I think the format is slowing down since broken decks aren't going to get anything probably.
I admire this man so much. He has done exactly what so many people dream of, build a career of his passion. Here his background in academia shines through with the clear structure, intro and conclusion and balancing pros and cons against each other. Not only is he entertaining. He is brilliant as well! Always a good feeling when I see a new video coming up!
It's not always fun and games for him though. His passion is Magic, not being a public figure. I definitely respect him but not sure I envy him.
You didn't mention Oubliette once!
I'm excited to get new cards as always, but afraid that the price tag will be too high which is counter productive. It's stupid making a new set for modern and selling it for 250$ so it's less accessible. I hope that won't be the case but without msrp who knows what will be...
It will likely be around $200 - $220
The set doesn't sell for $250. A booster box does. That means booster packs are a fraction of that. This means you can win some magic and use store credit, or trade in some cards and open packs, or wait for singles and trade or buy the ones you need.
If you used to buy a box, now buy a half box....
@@markmason2216 it's usually a waste of money to open boosters and
Doesn't like every store ever sell a full box a lot cheaper than 36 packs?
@@markmason2216 half a box has half the cards in it.
Local game stores are already offering $200 preorders.
This set may make modern even more expensive because they are printing new cards, likely staples, in a set that lacks a standard print run.
Actually, from what I remember it's print-to-demand, similar to Conspiracy 2
@@oriorb It is print to demand indeed.
Not to mention the boosters will cost twice as much 😥
@@MaeseEidos Seriously! Hell yeah!
Your description of the new modern sounds like Yugioh's format.
I think a better implementation of Modern Horizons would have had 50 new Legacy cards, 50 new Modern cards, and 150 needed reprints. Putting 200 new cards into Modern could have catastrophic consequences for the format, and a smaller batch of new cards would both increase excitement for them, and also allow Wizards to only use genuinely cool cards that are their best designs. Also, putting needed reprints in the set would help reassure players that the decks they love are here to stay, and are not going to get thrown to the wayside by power creep. It would also be really sad for someone to watch the Mythic Championship in London, go out all excited and get a deck to play Modern, and then have their deck invalidated by Modern Horizons a couple of months later. Modern has consistently been one of the best formats, and I just hope that it stays that way. I really do believe in the Play Design Team, and I hope they can pull this off!
Excited to see what cards I can use for commander...
2weeks ago I got a interrest in MTG, I have never played it before but I have experience in playing card games like Hearthstone and Elderscrolls legends. While those two kept me busy for a while I missed the feeling of playing with people in person, I collected marvel and dc cards when I was allot younger which I loved and I have no doubt that im going to love collecting magic cards. Ive been obsessing over MTG these past two weeks, ive watched hundreds of youtube videos and ive gotten really good advice from your channel like where to start. Im from South-Africa and its not that difficult to get cards here but its just so damn expensive, so ill be saving to buy a Planewalkers deck. Until then ill be glued to your channel, keep up the good work!
This may well be the ultimate challenge for the play design team.
My top wanted Legacy prints into Modern:
- Baleful Strix
- Psychatog
- Counterspell
- Containment Priest
- No Mercy
- Scroll Rack
- Black Vise
- Grindstone
- Diabolic Intent
- Vindicate
- Doomsday
- Diabolic Edict
- Opposition
- Veteran Explorer
- Astral Slide
- Nimble Mongoose
- Enchantress’s Presence
- Goblin Lackey
These are definitely my top picks! I know a lot of these are pretty big bombs and I dont expect most of them to be reprinted, but just a few would be awesome!
There is only one solution..unleash Eldrazi and consume modern new cards and old
Make Eldrazi the new goblin - let them into all the planes. Like Kamigawa. Especially Kamigawa. Why not introduce a new Titan? Why not have some characters undergo Eldrazi Conscription? Eh? EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE??
@@koboldbiopellet You get a eldrazi! You get an eldrazi! EVERYONE GETS AND ELDRITCH HORRER!!!
@@koboldbiopellet Nicol Bolas, Devourer of Planes.
You've hit the nail on the head - Power creep and pseudo rotation.
I am a EDH main that likes to draft and to a much lesser extent build certain constructed decks.
EDH is so appealing because I can build with old stuff that is affordable and overpowered. Those old overpowered cards were more or less future proof.
Now there's a new avenue (outside of the annual precons) to sink cash into that is going to power up COMMANDER!?!?
Power creep sucks. It is a total cash grab. I get that new stuff has to be printed to push things, but the velocity of new relevant cards to non-rotating formats needs to be a trickle, not a flood.
Many players, myself included will loose interest if the only way to keep up in non-rotating formats is to shell out Standard-like amounts of cash to maintain parity in the arms race. Players will abandon Magic if a new player down the road can shell out $20 for a precon and $50 for add-ons for a deck that is going to hose older $1000+ dollar decks with reserve list gems.
Im tired of collections that a booster pack cost more than a normal one
Not only is this a great video but your little excursion on the commander issue made me aware of a much larger problem with eternal formats in general... great job as always!
I was sure Instructor came back again for a second.
My money's on:
Armageddon, Counterspell, Mother of Runes, Oubliette, Dack Fayden, FTK, Cycling Lands, Deep Analysis, Portent, Dismiss, Containment Priest, Living Death, Vindicate. Foil and Ruination I like for Modern, but they're kinda borderline. For new cards, I'm imagining some kind of nonbasic land hate like Back to Basics, maybe some follow-ups to the Future Sight Lands like River of Tears or Grove of the Burnwillows, maybe some cards to push B-tier archetypes like Faeries or Elves or Abzan Midrange or Zoo or Living End or Affinity or Bogles. For those saying Force of Will and Wasteland, Wizards has made pretty clear that they don't want to make Modern into Legacy. Oh, one last thing. In Eventide, they had a cycle or Retrace hybrid-enemy-colored cards: Call the Skybreaker, Spitting Image, Waves of Aggression, and Worm Harvest. THERE'S NO BW CARD! Please Wizards finish that cycle. It doesn't even have to be a good card, just finish it.
Something, anything that will make Enchantress a viable archetype.
Great video, Prof! You hit the nail right on the head with why Horizons is both terrifying and exciting at the same time. I just wanna be able to still competitively play our Merfolk when the dust settles!
I totally disagree with your point about "rotation". Good cards will stay good, you should have no guarantee that a good card will always be the best or that your deck will always be tier 1. One of the big reason the cards for modern are so expensive is because the best decks are good for so long that the supply dries up. If the decks were more dynamic prices would go down.
Paying $300 a year to update your Standard deck is still more expensive in the long run than paying $1000 for a Modern deck that will remain relevant for years and adding on maybe $100 a year.
I am excited about the set, but a rotation due to power creep is exactly why I stopped playing Yugioh years ago. The reason o buy new cards was because most of the old ones were just not as good anymore.
This does occur in modern but to a much lesser degree. I am primarily a commander player but modern is always fun on the side to get that one on one experience.
I hope this cards add variety instead of power and we see new decks played, not because they over power the rest, but because they offer a new play experience.
This is of course magical christmasland thinking so, fingers crossed!
As long as they give me a Ruination reprint I'm ok with the rest. Yes I like land destruction.
Thanks for such a patient and measured response, Professor. I really appreciate your concern for reprints and accessibility balanced with game play concerns.
Hopefully, Horizons is an opportunity to enable more decks and push more interaction in the format without dropping new staples behind a mythic rarity. That might just be wishful thinking, but I think it's important to remember what the goals of the set are when it finally comes out.
I've read every article, watched every video. Can't stop. Modern Horizons
Great intro. Gavin gave a great non answer, and I look forward to seeing him dance around the spiders questions in the future like the majestic butterfly he is.
Cabal Therapist looks like it would make 8Rack a bit more fun and viable, even if only slightly
I like the idea of Cabal therapist with Bitterblossom
If u love playing magic u should look into 7 point highlander “Australian highlander”. In this format I can use any card that’s not banned in vintage. It works with a point system so it’s a very fair format. Can’t wait for modern horizons to see what it adds to highlander :)
All 50 reprints are Oubliette. Calling it here.
Thank you, Prof, for asking all the questions I have about what Wizards is up to with this set. I'm not sure how they can design a set for Modern that doesn't include any reprints of expensive and high-demand Modern staples, but has enough good cards (both new and reprints) for players to want to buy it, and that doesn't cause some degree of upheaval to the Modern format. As you say, the new cards in this set have got to be pretty darn good if they expect people to buy it, and if the cards are that good then change is definitely coming. But what is Wizards' ultimate goal here? Are they trying to shake up Modern to the point where many of the current top decks are no longer as relevant? Can they even achieve that with one set? Will they focus on creating new cards that spike lower and mid-tier Modern decks? Or maybe print cards that power up various mono-colored strategies so there is less of a need for fetch and shock lands in the format? Whatever their goal is here I think it's either going to be a total game-changer or a bust, which obviously makes it a very risky move. I am certainly hoping for the best even if this is both exciting and worrisome at the same time.
I'd be lying if I said I'm not excited about this, but eternal formats are the reasons I play magic.
Enforcing a practical rotation by printing cards above the curve will make modern more dynamic, but it will become essentially a glorified standard-commander hybrid.
I think the real problem is that if new modern horizons sets regularly come out the format will suffer as a whole.
Yu-gi-oh has this characteristic. Once it had a back and forth flow, which steadily became faster and faster to the point that right now the games are decided on the first turn. Magic shouldn't suffer as much thanks to the mana costs restricting the players, but I can easily see combo decks going out of control one after the other and half the game being over by turn 2 or 3.
So yugioh is legacy and vintage but less fun?
@@passedjudgements4729 Fairly accurate description. However I would compare it more to a coin toss. Who has the first turn wins the game 90% of the times. And a card worth 60€ is worth 5€ 2 months after printing.
Yeah at least Legacy and Vintage cards retain their value over time.
@@passedjudgements4729 I need to disagree on your comment considering Legacy, I can't speak about Vintage, I don't know much about it, but Legacy is the most interactive format right now: strong control cards, good synergies, high power creatures and more strong effects.
The idea about Legacy being a turn 2 format comes from the fast combo decks like ANT, TES and Spanish Inquisition. Those decks are strong and fast, but the whole format balances itself incorporating Counterspells (Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce) and Prison Control cards like Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void.
While Turn 2 and 3 are the most important in a Legacy game, they don't need to be game deciding, depending on your strategy you can easily come back in later turns and change the tide in your favor.
What many magic's players don't think about is how this set will impact new "usual" sets : because wizard will not be forced to print modern cards in the standard sets it means there is a less risk of really powerful cards, or useless cards which were intended to be played in modern. This means more chance to have a more diversified standard and less useless card in the rare and mythic slot (for standard). So I think there is even more potential to be a good thing.
I'm not worried and I'm 100% excited because I don't play modern, I play commander and pauper.
The ideal combination imho.
As someone who doesn't play Modern but would like to, I think this sounds like a great concept. Its an on-ramp of sorts to a deep and inaccessible format. I also enjoy Limited, and this sounds like it could be a really amazing limited environment.
I'm glad I play Commander. I'd like to play modern but it seems expensive.
I definitely prefer Commander but it can and usually is just as expensive as Modern.
My ninja deck is all foiled that is over 3k$ so commander can be expensive as hell too
@@LogoMotive11 yet, if you consider the diversity of gameplay you get from a single deck as part of the equation, a commander deck delivers a hell of a lot more fun for the buck. Also, there are plenty of casual commander multiplayer groups that just durdle around and use second or third row commanders to really tease out deckbuilding ideas. Modern always has a competitiveness to it that leads to an expensive arms race.
@@chriss.7772 It was never a discussion about which one is more worth the money. Just a matter of both being expensive, almost equally so.
@@LogoMotive11 then let me put it this way: Any format brought to its maximum competitive state (except pauper maybe) is utterly expensive. But to find out which format is more accessible, go and build a commander deck for $100 and play it in your local commander group. You will have loads of fun and even win from time to time (you can even do that with precons). Do that with a modern deck, limited to a $100 budged, in the same game store and you will have a bad time... You can obviously build rediculously expensive commander decks, bling them out, run legacy staples, etc. But for your commander deck to be viable in a regular commander environment, you dont have to build it like that. The modern format and the community for modern are based on a completely different mindset, focusing way more on competitiveness than creativity. So your $100 homebrew will most likely turn out to be an utter failure. That is what people talk about when they call modern and legacy inaccessible.
Don't always agree with you, but this is spot on. I just bought into a modern deck with Ultimate Masters and now I worry that format is being replaced with a new rotating format (as you described, I understand cards won't actually leave the format). The big draw for me to modern was the non-rotating slow evolution of the format. I'm very excited to see legacy cards going into modern, but very worried about the impact on the format of the new cards. Since I'm a big standard player before I knew that I would be getting the cards for modern while playing standard, but now that won't be true. I'm also just angry after having spent a fair bit of money to get into modern a few months ago and looking at my deck potentially becoming obsolete with this set. I was already working towards legacy, so the legacy reprints are not as scary.
For the reprints of older cards.. Please give me every UGx Threshold and Madness deck cards from the Odyssey block not yet printed in modern sets. (Nimble Mongoose, Circular Logic, Wonder etc). But more importantly, unless Horizons contain functional reprints of fetches, Snapcaster etc., wizards needs to get reprinting those ASAP. It's already years overdue for a bunch of those pricey cards and they're literally losing players due to being too slow on those reprints.
Snappy just got printed in Ultimate Masters though
@@a.velderrain8849 At mythic rarity in a limited printrun set. It barely even made a dent in the price.
this is the best, THE BEST breakdown of the implications of Horizons. A totally new, fresh angle on it. Well done, Prof.
I'm curious how you make a land better than a fetch that's not a straight up original dual land.
He said "budget" fetch land. For example, a single-type fetch would be almost as good for 2 and 3 color decks, but cost about as much as a shock land. Dual-type fetches are really only needed for 4 color decks. Five color decks just play cavern of souls.
Richard Lawrence ah ok. Good idea.
umm have it fetch for 3 land types haha.
I really worry about modern horizons but you make the break down of it really easy to understand!
Does anyone else find it funny that Serra is considered too powerful for Standard, when they are about to release a Planeswalker centric set? Does this mean that none of the coming planeswalkers are at least as powerful as Serra?
Story of the next set is about the walkers and not ravnica, they never set the set will mechanically be about them. so lots of cards focusing on the gatewatch and co in the art instead of ravnica people
bluspidr it’s actually been confirmed that there will be 36 new planeswalker cards in the set, and each booster pack will contain a Planeswalker card. However this probably means that a lot of them will be watered down but also likely to made with limited in mind, so I do believe that Serra might be too powerful for standard. However, the real problem is that she is dead in the current storyline so it would be impossible to see Serra in a standard set.
Raymundo Uribe Coronado I hate everything now....
I am excited prof. Here's hoping for some great additions to the format!
But the reprint problem troubles me greatly as well. Guess I'll just have to accept the fact that modern staples will forever be expensive
Best. Intro. Ever.
Nice video, Professor: thank you! As you have many times before, you've again enriched the broader conversation.
At least one more elephant in the room remains with Modern Horizons, though: why will it be so much more expensive than a Standard release?
This feels worse to me than the seemingly opportunistic price gouging of enfranchised players with Ultimate Masters. Unlike that set, this set won't be "optional" for competitive Modern players.
i really hope they print force of will as a rare in this set so the price tanks
Would be insane, I mean the original conterspell is not allowed and then *bang* reprint the best counter spell ever for the modern format :D Let's see^^
Mr Kitten I have to say I think there will be no reprints of free spells in this set. Would be a nice reprint for a card. I doubt that any no blue players would enjoy having FoW in the formats though. Along with other free spells such as Daze, or Fireblast, as other examples
Introducing Modern Lands, where all of your mana base need are met in one place. Featuring art from your favorite sets such as lorwyn art fetch lands, new phyrexia shock lands and basic lands from dragons maze. -love wotc. (Only$599, shipping not included)
I just want them to make vampire tribal better in the format
I've got a playable Vampire tribal deck that competes with top tier decks. Planning on rolling the dice with it at the Philly open this weekend. But yeah I'd say it's still missing an oomf. If I finish 5-4 in day 1 that will be a successful test in my mind. Pairs up decently against GDS and Dredge. Old school Affinity is abysmal and in my match ups against mono red Phoenix it's a poor matchup but usually comes down to running out of gas on both sides and them hitting better top decks.
Same! I love my vampire deck but it just isn't that great. A 2 drop Lord and a nice one drop that does something dope would be nice.
If you go madness for a route you have both with Stromkirk condemned and Falkenrath gorger respectively
Professor and fellow students, making some version of a mostly/strictly better fetch would have a small impact on the cost of Fetches in general and the already low cost "Khans" reprinted fetches.
As, a deck like blue moon, as an example, would just run 4 of those and 4 scalding tarns. And your broader point about, having a mostly better or strictly better fetch would just become the "new" price barrier.
brilliant intro! I salute thee :D
For someone who has been waiting for the right moment to dive into modern, I think that this will be a good opportunity. These new cards will change up modern significantly enough for some new innovative decks to make a splash. Looking forward to it.
It makes one wonder about all of Gavin's other answers too. Especially knowing how long it takes them to makes sets (This was 1,000% in the works at the time of the interview). I mean, he's pretty obviously not being honest in the way honestly is typically thought about. So much so, that I think it's fair to say that he was being dishonest.
Paul Johnson i concord!
I think it's unfair to call it dishonesty, even if that's technically true. People's jobs often rely on what information they give out and when they choose to do it, and Verhey is far from the top of his corporate chain. I wouldn't worry too much about it, personally.
Lucas Wight if you don’t want to give informations, do not make interviews or do it just on pre-approved questions
@@druidobianco9734 I think Verhey wanted to reach out to the community as much as he was allowed to, considering the unrest that the silence of WotC has bred over the years. Anything is better than silence, if you ask me.
Paul Johnson It’s extremely unlikely, but there is the possibility that he didn’t actually know about Horizons, it might have been designed entirely be a specialized team that weren’t allowed to speak about it. More likely he was told that he couldn’t talk about it, but regardless it’s not a reason to doubt his honesty, more to doubt WotC’s information release policies.
Hey Prof, love the video, but I have a small complaint/critique. That segment where they talked about reprinting anything you showed the clip where they talked about possibly adding counterspell but not the part where they immediately after saying "we are not saying counterspell will be in the set." I just think the message was a little unfairly misleading but I got the message. But great video and great conversation!
The hype is "New cards for modern!" The reality is that Kamigawa dragons were bombs in limited and therefore great for modern masters. I'm under the impression we are getting a little less Ultimate Masters and a lot more Kamigawa Dragons.
Notoriousadd1 but this set will not contain reprints of cards currently legal in modern, which the kamigawa dragons are.
@@Lazyman18125 "Kamigawa Dragons" is more a feeling than a set of cards in my statement. Think opening balefire dragon in ultimatr masters, like yeah this was a bomb in limited but ultimately this is draft chaff, it will be years before it possibly gains any value. These will be new cards and reprints outside modern, but there is no world where we see 200+ playables in a set. There will be a lot of cards designed to balance limited or are ok in commander on a budget is what I was implying.
Notoriousadd1 Ah I see what you mean now. I do agree with you as well, I don’t think may cards from this set will see much but fringe play, aside from possibly 2-3 staple cards
Watching this video 9 months later is actually scary. Two thirds ended up being draft chaff and the last third consists of sideboard cards, some nice additions like Vista and FoN and stupidly pushed cards that already needed a ban in modern and legacy with some more on B&R's watchlist...or homogenized entire strategies. In the end, Modern Horizons accomplished two things: the modern format overall is more expensive now and we now know that WotC is willing to jeopardize eternal formats just for the sake of more money; with a single set.
Thinking about stuff like the fetch lands never being reprinted makes me frustrated, and I don't even play modern! I need the fetchlands for commander, and while I have some already, I didn't get them from the original sets they were in, I got them from lucky pulls from Masters or trading with people.
Fetchlands will indeed be reprinted, just not in this modern horizons
Fetchlands will indeed be reprinted, just not in this modern horizons
Druido Bianco Shocklands in Return to Return to Ravnica did make me hopeful. I'm hoping we can go back to Zendikar to get the enemy fetches...
I never played the original Zendikar but BFZ was one of my favourite draft formats.
what is the ratio of relevant modern cards to the total number of available cards currently? of the 254 cards, let's say about 10% will be modern-relevant which will in turn be about 2% of modern-relevant cards. They have to be absurdly powerful to totally warp the format. Surely they'll push out a few cards to fringe-playability, but we got a play-design-team now, so what could go wrong?
Unrelatedly, I'm pretty confident that fetchlands will hit standard again (after the shocklands rotate). After seeing the powerlevel of war of the spark, fetchlands do not seem off at all, unless you mix them with double-colored fetchables. All in all: power creep, but not universal power creep. The impact on non-creature spells has increase far less dramatically than creatures have, making it slowly possible to reprint old favorites again.
they will reprint scalding tarn they will just call it scalding falls and bam! its a different card
might actually be what needs to happen
Maybe we'll get tri-color fetches, like the Panoramas, but better. Jeski Panorama please!
Then people will have 8 fetch lands instead of 4 and they will have the advantage to the people with 4 fetch lands haha
I think it’d be more likely to see mono color fetches that don’t come in tapped or something along those lines
Steaming Pile of Tarn 💩
I've recently come out of a Magic hiatus thanks to Pauper, and I am really excited to see what Horizons brings to that format more so than for Modern actually.
Calling it now, Modern Horizons is going to be drastically powered down.
The main problem I can see with straight-to-modern sets is that it's basically going to render standard sets useless in older formats, less and less (if any) cards from standard sets going forward will be viable in modern, surely leading to less sales of standard booster boxes, which will in turn increase the secondary market cost of the very odd standard card that does find a home in modern.
It does have the potential to make standard a more casual format
I almost wonder if we will we will see a schism in the modern community. Purists that only play with standard first cards, and horizons players, who play with the made for modern cards.
I think that's likely to happen, but it depends on the success of horizons and their willing to reprint card in next modern sets
For one thing, I’m really looking forward drafting this. I know, it’s not the focus here, but it’s the first thing that came to my mind.
I was very happy, until you pointed out the problems that may occur that I was not aware of
Some thoughts:
- Needed Reprints everlasting problem may be addressed in future releases. There are many variables in this release already, addressing this problem here as well may distort the results analysis.
- I'm hoping for new cards to play with good mechanics that score badly in a Storm Scale. For example, Kamigawa lovers (me included) may have new (and possibly better designed) Samurais, Kamis, Ninjas and etc. There are nothing wrong with mechanics like bushido or ninjutsu, but the whole plane is compromised, which makes it difficult to be revisited in Standard.
- Since the only injection of new cards comes from Standard, and Standard has many design restrictions that may not allign with Modern's style, new cards made for Modern is a way to make the format more interesting, creating new possibilities. Dynamizing the environment won't necessaily bring rotation to the format.
If modern horizons fails, then will there be commander horizons?
You mean Battlebond?
You mean the yearly commander sets?
I'm actually really excited for this I think this will breathe some new blood into modern and we'll do it in a lot of good ways. The Legacy free prints like you said will bring a balanced hopefully non reserved list Legacy format effectively into modern as far as needed modern reprints just because this modern Horizons set doesn't contain modern reprint doesn't mean future ones and that also doesn't preclude the possibility of some other reprint set which Gavin hinted at
"Modern as we know it is over" I'm ok with this, modern is the most non interactive format around right now. I hope this set fixes that.
How can you complain about it not being interactive when it’s the most competitive format? So you’re telling my I should LET my opponent win and not bring the best cards possible? What backwards logic is that?
@@DeeJaysWord Legacy is actually more interactive.
@@DeeJaysWord its not interactive because Modern is about going as fast as possible and killing your opponent on turn 3 and 4.
@@DeeJaysWord I'm not sure what you mean by "the most competitive format" isn't any format that has high level sanctioned tournament play competitive? I never said people should dilute their decks. My point was that right now the best decks in modern are not very interactive and I hope Horizons fixes this.
@@theta-8 I dont mean to be rude, but do play modern? There are many people complaining about how modern is a 2-4 turn kill who dont actually play the format. I play modern more than any other format and that isn't what it is. Occasionally sure, but the majority of the decks are midrange and control. Many aggro decks can not reach that win on turn 3 or 4 what you said.
I am excited, I usually play everything but the kitchen sink at my lgs when I feel like being non-infect friendly. This set I feel is going to make that easier to do if they make the packs more accessable compared to master sets.
I wanted to start with modern because of the consistancy
Now I feel unsafe to invest in a good deck
I think I will just not start playing Magic ..
The new set will be troublesome
I never noticed it till now but my wife pointed out that you sound like Wil Wheaton.
Keep up the great content!
The Lies and Fairy Tales of Gavin Verhey
Im exited for this new set and hope to see what it is going to contribute to the format it might also bring cards that help compliment existing decks and not just make them obselete. I would like to see memory lapse added to modern
Was stoneforge ever modern in legal. I understand it is in a modern legal set but wasn't it just banned from the beginning. Could that mean the card is in this set and unbanned?
Thomas Borawski don’t unban stoneforge. EVER!
let's keep stoneforge mystic banned in.... mo-dern
CAW
Yeah, stoneforge is really a problem, now let me play my Phoenix and hollow one turn two, or that storm will win me next turn
@@peheoli6353 I see someone got my PK referece?
I'm excited for the sole purpose of new variation in commander. It's the only format I play anymore because I'm not fond of my local modern and standard groups, so in my mind this is a 254 card made-for-EDH set which makes me happy
Ok, now I'm scared
Genius video sir. May all your lands be ever untapped and all your creatures be most vigilant.
Modern will never be on my "horizons" too expensive, too competitive. I'll continue with commander and budget standard.
Try modern budget decks. Still need a few bucks but budget versions of death and taxes. Burn. UW control. Merfolk. Goblins. Spirits. GW hate bears. Depending on your budget/collection about 50 bucks will get you into modern with a competitive but still not top tier
i strongly agree about the rotation part. there will be certain decks akd cards better played with each set that comes out instead of the same old sets played forever
Yeah I'm sure people will just end up playing Modern and Modern Horizons as separate formats.
Very excited about this product since I'm just a casual player who plays modern and gradually updates my existing decks with new cards. Interesting that you didn't mention the boxes will be well over $200 bucks though!
not sure I'm ok with legacy cards in modern
I think that it will mainly either be cards that were just short of the cut off (ie 7th edition) or cards that don’t see much play in tier one decks.
@@Bush_Striker_of_Towers just hoping they leave out counter spell and other op blue cards.
viewtuber Counterspell is op when you can get a turn 2 Hollow One and other way more powerful plays? You’re being facetious right?
@@ViewtuberOG lol how is counterspell OP? Modern already has Logic Knot and Negate which are functionally the same in most situations.
@@a.velderrain8849 they are situational unlike counter spell, far different.
I don't play modern, I mostly play commander. I dont know the effects this set will have on modern, but I've always enjoyed having new cards released in the commander format. To me it brings new ideas and possibilities for building new decks. It keeps it interesting. Yes some made for commander cards are powerful, but I think the constant influx of new cards releasing is always going to change the meta. People are still going to play older cards, but now they just have new choices. If left alone, eternal formats can even stagnate. Whenever new sets release, I'm always looking for new cards to tweak a deck or to build a deck around. Time will show on this release and its effect on modern, but I welcome the new cards for commander
I hope horizons two will be partially reprints.
I don't play modern, but I sympathize with the power creep problem as a commander player. At the least, if these cards are on average just the right amount of power level to not replace a vast amount of modern cards, but perhaps be budgeted alternatives to certain lands and effects, it will in action be a softer "natural rotation" compared to a strict set rotation like standard. It is, still however, a big change to modern, be open MTG players. And hopeful, it could be a good thing.