I love this series. With each class having its own strengths and weaknesses, it's hard to make a direct comparison, but you're doing a great job getting as close as you can. If nothing else, your graphs show (at least so far) that if inflicting damage directly is your goal, stick to the martials. If you want to buff, debuff, or control the battlefield, focus on magic. I've seen players get frustrated because their magic-using characters can't compete on single-target damage. Your videos show, at least for me, why magic-using characters should largely stick with what they're best at and help the martials do what they do best.
@@rontrobertson funny you mention that. For me, the fact that a fighter, who cannot do anything else besides damage, is so closely matched against a moon druid, is a huge red flag. Imagine characters are rated 1-10 in few categories: non combat utility, combat control, damage, survivability, social. Fighters would rate, say, 10 in damage, 7 in survivability, 3 in the rest. Now, comes the land druid, with a 7 in damage, and also 7 on all others aspects. Would you choose to sacrifice all others aspects of a character to get a bit of an edge in one aspect (damage)? To me, the gap should be so ridiculous to the point of making casters and martials not even comparable in single target damage. Instead, what I see here is martials sacrificing everything else to be slightly better at damage, which is unfortunate and a losing tradeoff imo
@@limaTheNoob I'd argue that with the weapon masteries, of which the fighter gets the most, provides a lot of the control that most casters would have without sacrificing a lick of damage. Combine that with the new rules on weapon switching and you can push, topple, slow, and sap 4 different enemies on a turn, with *zero* resource cost. Does that fully close the gap to the utility that spells provide? No. Does it leave a fighter as only damage? Most certainly not.
@jasonklatt481 I think weapon masteries are severely overrated. I really don't think the control they do is all that relevant. Sap simply doesn't scale. Topple triggers on a CON save, which is horrible to target and very unreliable. Push is good, but nothing crazy. Slow is... Sure, it's there. Worse, to use all those maneuvers, fighter often need to forgo the benefits of their primary magical weapon to access alternative masteries, since the level 9 feature is limited for whatever reason. I don't think anyone considers agonizing blast + repelling blast enough to consider warlocks even a decent controller. That's just not enough. So, I don't know, I think people overestimate masteries white a bit..
@@jas0616 Indeed. I hope to be proven wrong. It just annoys me because martials are not expected to have control equivalent to wall of force, but casters are expected to be able to deal comparable damage as long as it expends resources, and that seems so very unfair to me. That on top of the fact that casters are just as survivable annoys the hell out of me lol
Another great video, Chris. A few notes: At level 9 you seem to have reduced the damage of the shillelaghs by a little too much. At level 8 you calculated the total shillelagh damage as 15.3 (I have 15.4 but that's rounding) but then in order to account for Animate Objects you reduced 14.1 (the level 7 value) by 15/16 instead of 15.3, which brings the damage up a little bit at that level, though it's only a point or so. However, at level 14 and 17 you gave bard features a level early, probably because of the Warlock dip. You wouldn't actually get to apply Battle Magic until level 15 or Foresight until level 18. And then for foresight, I may be missing something but you failed to give yourself advantage on any eldritch blast checks for the whole rest of the build. The spell allows advantage on all D20 tests, so this should also apply to the eldritch blasts. This cranks the damage up a whole ton from what you presented. I have 161.7 at level 18/19 and 188.8 at level 20, which is just absolutely ridiculous. In the end that shouldn't matter because I don't think anyone should ever actually bring this to a table though.
One of my long-running AL characters is a Valor Bard 14/Warlock 2. I'm voluntarily foregoing CME, and generally suggesting that everyone at the table do so, in order to avoid trivializing the combats. The build is more than adequate without it.
@@znail4675 if you're really worried about up casting, you could also just take Spirit Shroud, which is from TCoE and hence perfectly AL-legal. If you fix the scaling of CME, it's basically the same, albeit CME is 5 ft larger but Spirit Shroud has some better damage types. So instead of wasting a prepared spell on something that won't scale (because you won't scale it), you can just take something that scales reasonably.
@@jasonreiyn9311 Yeah, that's a big wild card. No telling what the resistance spread will be in the new MM. That said, I do find it difficult to believe that elemental damage will ever be better than radiant (on the whole), but it's entirely possible that the gap narrows significantly.
1d8 per level is pretty much the same as 2d8 every other level (only a smoother graph) 1d8 every other level is likely so weak there is no point housenerfing it that hard ( at this point perhaps simply choose whether to ban it entirely or simply remove upcasting?) Just a heads up as to give a likely reason should he choose to just graph his houserule (and not your two suggested variants)
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g Spirit Shroud is literally 1d8 for every two levels upcast, and still one of the best DPR increasers in the game on anyone with multiple attacks. 1d8 per level is probably still fine, but 1d8 per two levels is not a small amount or not worth taking. That one is only a Bonus Action to cast, so I do think that 1d8 per level is about right.
I've always wondered what you would think of the precast rule I use. "Yes you can walk around casting the cantrip all the time. If we roll initiative and nothing has happened to complicate that, you roll a d10 and that's how many turns into the current castings minute you are. There's a chance it's falling g off on your first turn or you only get a turn or two anyway. Further, if you start casting other spells or engaging in activities like investigation or another skill check you'll have to stop or risk the interruption causing disadvantage on those checks or something else that feels appropriate to the situation. ... Actually writing it out it seems longer then I thought at first. I'll try and find a more concise wording.
That's a great solution. Also, Shillelagh having Verbal components would mean sneaking around, or just trying to stay hidden, or stay friendly while talking to any guardlike person would be difficult.
If your going to go back to a class, please consider ranger revist. TWF on beastmaster looks like it works numbers wise. Fey wander kind of a weird subclass to choose since it focuses on spellcasting and control, not damage.
I've done some numbers and a TWF Beast Master defo has the best damage if you use scimitar and shortsword and sub the nick attack for the beast attack till level 5, then you can swap your second attack and benefit from Nick and Vex, all while still casting HM. And that was before you assume anything like the extra d6 from the Land beast's charge or adv from it knocking enemies prone.
@@mattwithoutfear Idk, i ran numbers with beast master ranger using the same assumptions as Chris and it's fine prior to level 11 but still fails to scale 11-20. Between levels 4-10 your beast's attack is a damage loss without the charge, about the same with charge every round, and slightly higher with the prone effect potentially giving you advantage; this largely comes from the fact that your pet scales off your wisdom and your attacks have a higher hit chance/damage. With that in mind, it's about the same as other ranger subclasses in tiers 1-2. Either way, it's pretty close to fighter and potb warlock prior to 11, and then falls super far behind in tiers 3-4 because it barely scales after that point. Maybe summoning helps, i didn't run the numbers for that, and if you could summon before a fight and use your bonus action to do your beast attacks it's definitely better damage-wise, you just have a vulnerable beast and summon you're relying on for damage at that point.
@@mattwithoutfear Yeah, the ranger kinda keeps up prior to 11 to fighter and potb warlock. So in the most common levels of play it's fine. I think that the main issue is that hm takes up the ranger's bonus action every round and twf doesn't scale as well as a 2-handed weapon with gwm. Maybe using something like conjure animals if you can get it off before combat is the play since it'll allow you to get 3 attacks, weaponize your bonus action with your pet, and then get the damage from the conjuration spell. With hunter's mark though at level 11+, Beast Master Ranger's attack action with the beast's attacks does about the same as a base fighter's attack action while using gwm, but the fighter gets to weaponize their bonus action for potential gwm attacks, plus action surge every other combat, and then you add in the bonus damage from the subclasses.
At lvl 14 when you get Battle Magic, I think you need to factor in whether you can precast Shillelagh or not. Prior to this point I believe you had a bonus action available on the first round of combat to cast Shillelagh, with Battle Magic, you're now "double booking" that same bonus action to factor in the damage from an attack on the round you're casting CME, when most of the time you'll actually need that bonus action to cast Shillelagh.
Good morning Chris! Excited to see this Subclass, i love anything that gives me the gish play style! I've loved Bladesinger ever since buying my AD&D Complete Book of Elves long long ago in high school! Hope you have a wonderful week! Thank you for the awesome videos! Love listening at work and then fully watching when i get home and can pay attention to the screen! Much love 💜 until the next vid!
My way to build a Eldtrich Knight with a Greatsword is to go with High Elf or Human (MI:W) for a way to cast True Strike with Cha and take a warlock dip. At level 12 you can do 2x(3d6 + 9) + (5d6 + 9)
I’ve done a few builds with the EK fighter, and it appears to have taken a step up in the gish ranks. A twf version is a nice dmg dealer, and is even marginally effective at range with a bow. Once you can add in spirit shroud in tier 3, the dmg jumps, and you can even add CME in at tier 4 at it’s base casting level. (Assuming you can use BB & GFB from XGTE, for the cantrip, war magic is great) Action surge, weapon mastery, indomitable 3xday for saves. It’s a solid all around combatant.
Another self-policing way to fix CME, is to not up-cast it immediately. You don't cast it at 5th level until you have your 6th level slot, you don't cast it at 6th until you have your 8th, and at 20 you can use 7th. This gives you appropriate-ish scaling and you get your higher level slots for other things.
Quarter staff is now a legitimate Druidic Focus in the new Player’s Handbook (Page 225) so if your weapon is a Staff you don’t need a free hand to cast Druidic spells.
Thats true for spells that have both a somatic and material component. If they're somatic-only then you still need a free hand. Its absolutely maddening that they left that rule intact in 2024 and we houserule the hell out of it but there it is.
@@PsyrenXY Players/DMs complain about casters being stronger than Martials, players/DMs choose to actively ignore a rule that hinders casters seemingly intentionally. Surprised Pikachu Face
@@ProjectPTSheep No, the problem has never been Gish builds. This is basically a strawman argument because the numbers on gish builds are almost always comparable or worse to just regular martials. Like a regular Hexblade does much less single target damage than a fighter. The most powerful options for casters are always mass shutdown and control spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Sleet Storm, Wall of Force, Spirit Guardians etc..
@@floofzykitty5072 A fighter should have more damage than a Gish, else why should the fighter even exist if the Gish is better in every way? And of course the most powerful options are shutdown, taking an enemy out of a fight is functionally killing them in terms of action economy. Gishes are stronger, and you want to buff them, because they aren't stronger in every way
On CME builds you can get a lot of mileage out of a 2 level sorcerer dip after warlock to get quicken. Especially since you can spend lower level slots to get sorcery points once you run out. Keeps your caster progression, so you are still scaling CME, and you can still get an epic boon bc the 16th bard level happens at 19. You do lose an ASI, but I think it could do a lot for your numbers, not having to take a turn off. And if you were not playing the early levels you could start sorcerer and avoid resilient con
Nick and DW (if not ruling that Battle Magic Eldritch Blast allows for the BA every round) can also add two more attacks, which is very significant here. But yeah, Quickened Scorching Ray, even low level ones, can add a lot more attacks too. The CME build Chris was presenting, at least past 11, was quite unoptimised (not that it matters much). I also do think Chris was underselling the 10min duration a little - in a dungeon (hint, D&D) there are likely to be combats less than 10 minutes apart easily. If not in a dungeon, actually getting four combat encounters a day can be quite a challenge (it also makes it more likely you'll have a Short Rest between each encounter, which changes some builds strengths by a lot). So, the point is that you probably have more of the encounters with the higher level CME than is being considered here. Of course, the major downfall to CME is being tier 3+ when many parties quit about that point.
19:43 for allowing pre casting of cantrips I take an in-between stance. I allow it, cuz nothing to say you can’t spam cantrips, but it isn’t free. Since most cantrips have a verbal component, like shillelagh, it will reduce your ability to stealth. You can’t be chanting words every 6 seconds and be completely stealthy. It’s assumed you can hear verbal components from 60 ft at least since the range of counterspell is that. And the spell assumes you know they are casting a spell, rather than “just talking” (and some spells are verbal only, so you can’t argue other things tip the counter speller off). Just my two cents.
I have the same approach. Forbidding cantrip spam is just DM playing the players character, but casting a spell every minute has obvious consequences for stealth.
At my table, the agreement is to assume cantrip spam every 30 seconds unless actively stealthing or the player explicitly specifies no to, e.g. a social setting where it might be too inappropriate
@@SortKaffe that’s a good approach. And that reminds me, when I wrote spam every six seconds I was thinking spamming rituals since you have to continue casting every round till the ritual is done. 30 sec is more realistic for something like shillelagh.:)
I would think if I had the 13 Str, I'd go Paladin for Weapon Mastery and Armor, just to keep up with Spell Slots.... Grear work as always Chis! Kee4em coming!
@@simonburling3762 I groan when I see that one suggested. xD A 9th level slot can be Wish, or True Polymorph. I don't think even the crazy scaling of CME comes close to those beasts.
I was a touch frustrated to not see any build without a multiclass dip. These videos are a great tool for me to compare the effectiveness of each class, but i feel that the comparisons aren't fair when the builds don't do what a casual player would do to try. (I.e. no multiclassing or using MI feat to pick up shillelagh or true strike). I know i felt the same way when the rogue build included using true strike, because none of my players would do that if they were building a "classic" rogue. Maybe this is just a difference in the kind of table we play on, but it would be very helpful to see how a "vanilla" valor bard would stack up. Thanks for these videos, Chris! You do amazing work!
Very interesting video, I learned a lot. As for CME, my group do not play a lot so I would warn them it is problematical and rule that it can only be used once per cantrip and then discuss after playing with it for a while. They are forgoing the use of some juicy spell there for that damage. Though I would have more issues if more than one player wanted to build around it but I do not think I have those kind of players.
Is your interpretation that Battle Magic and the Valor Bard’s Extra Attack don’t work together? It seems to provide a bonus action attack every turn, since you’re casting a cantrip that has a casting time of an action.
My reading is it wouldn't apply because you aren't using your action to cast a spell, you are taking the attack action, and the cantrip is definitely not using up that whole action.
@@TreantmonksTemple I would also point out Battle Magic doesn't say you need to take the Magic Action. Since the new PHB has defined the Magic Action and used it to clarify other rules, it would suggest that using the Attack Action to cast a spell should qualify
@@TreantmonksTemple that used to be a point of contention in 2014 rules as well regarding Eldritch Knight 7 / Bladesinger 6 builds. Crawford has explained in one of those sage advice videos that such an interaction is valid. So, taking the attack action and casting a cantrip as part of it should, indeed, qualify as "use your action to cast a cantrip".
You use summoning spells so inconsistently. You use them for valor greatsword, but not for warlock greatsword or base bard. Summons are the best tool for spellcasters to deal consistent damage (better than CME, because you don't have to engage in melee).
I get that this is how the numbers work out but it's so funny to me that the blade pact warlock doesn't use the blade pact's signature feature (attacking with charisma), but the valor bard does
It largely doesn't matter - Nick and DW aren't being considered, and those add two more attacks to the strength of CME. At level 11, put those in and take out the much weaker Shillelagh (use Pact of the Blade), fix the Battle Magic and Foresight use, and that curve will rise considerably more. Even better, add in two Sorc levels for Quickened Scorching Rays.
@@theresnoracelikegnome Foresight would also affect the hit and crit chance on Eldritch Blast as well. 0.65 to 0.94 in the multiplier is a noticeable contribution. It looks like the last few levels are out by 40 or so DPR.
I really hope the fix for Conjure Minor Elementals is either add in "once per turn" or "once on your turn" and the scaling is left alone. We don't need another spell scaling up multi-attack builds. It is in the Druid and Wizard spell lists by default, and I believe that besides the Moon Druid and the Bladesinger, all of the subclasses for those classes have 1 attack per turn, so giving them a way to boost their Shillelah and True Strike attacks in a way that can sort of keep up with the multi-attack builds makes the spell useful and flavorful for the classes that are supposed to have it. And the Moon Druid already has two bonus damage effects it gets that are already "once per turn", so this would even match the current design of the only multi-attack Druid subclass. I would personally love to have a spell that gives you an incentive to build around one attack per turn.
Grabbing Eldritch Adept to get Pact of the Blade can be nice for gishes, it'll let you use your charisma for the weapon modifiers and lets you use it as a spellcasting focus while specifically not mentioning a class spell list restriction like most spellcasting focus features. "...Until the bond ends, you have proficiency with the weapon, and you can use it as a Spellcasting Focus."
I'm looking forward to the Eldricht Knight video. I've played around with an Int-based EK shillelagh 'n board build and I think it looks fun. The damage would be respectable, a very good AC with plate and the shield spell, with a maxed Int for a good spell DC, and lots of utility with its spells. Concentration spells could partly be used as a way to encourage mobs to focus fire on the tank. Besides, an opening control spell (even if using low level slots) is often more important than early damage. I'll be interested to see how your choices compare with mine.
I think this is a non-issue, honestly. It doesn't work until very high levels, it eats your high level spell slots, and it's replacing a dramatically stronger type of spell (the old "Conjure X" line of spells is just better). I also think the opportunity cost of 'do nothing but buff yourself' on your first turn is enormous and annoying enough that when you do that, the subsequent impact should be worth it.
I'd agree if it didn't make a caster with basically no martial investment better than a martial with a full build. But it does and that's an issue. The conjure spells were reworked for a reason!
Using Font of Moonlight, maximizing the number of attacks by using polearm mastery (3 attacks with the feat) or dual-wielding (4 attacks with the feat) makes sense.
I don't know a single DM in the world that wouldn't let you cast Shillelagh with a shield on. If they don't allow that, then run- they are going to be a nightmare to play with.
Actually you don't need a free hand for M components at all, because Quarterstaff is a Druidic Focus now and Valor Bard can use a weapon as their spellcasting focus. So it works for both spell types
One build im playing with is valor bard with a 3 level rogue (thief) dip using ranged attacks. Scaling off off dex is just better for a bard than scaling off str for your 1st attack and with thief's subclass feature and arcana proficiency you can craft true strike scrolls and get 3 attacks per turn, with a small sneak attack, 2 of which being true strikes.
I'm looking forward to doing Valor bard with a warlock dip, so you can cast haste and double eldritch blast plus an additional attack. Bard is going to be insane in tier 3 and 4
i like the calculation a lot, valor bard sure packs a punch even without abusing cme:) I don't really understand the need to take polearm master for the bonus action attack. The 14 feature tells us that when we cast a spell with a casting time of an action, you can do the BA attack The extra attack feature tells us, that we can substitute one of our attacks with a cantrip with a casting time of an action. So, wouldn't casting a cantrip like eldritch blast which has a casting time of an action already qualify us for the lvl 14 BA attack? or am i missing sth?
The level 6 feature states that you can change one of the attacks within the extra attack, and u can only use extra attack when you take the attack action, taking the attack action is different than making one attack as a bonus action
@@Leydus thanks for the reply, but im not sure i understand you completely. The lvl 14 feature allows me to make a bonus action attack when i cast a spell with a casting time of an action. When i use the valor bards extra attack to cast eldritch blast, then i should be able to EB-->extra attack-->lvl 14 BA attack since i cast EB which is a cantrip fitting the criteria. The lvl 14 feature does not require me to take the attack action NOR does it require me to take the magic action, only that i cast a spell with the casting time of an action. Therefore casting EB with the extra attack feature it should qualify to take use of the lvl 14 feature. Which would be better than using polearm master🤔
So I thought the message is, if someone wants to play this in a level 1-20 campaign, let them. If they struggle bus through the early levels and survive until level 15 where it actually gets online, they earned it. Especially since interrupting concentration or dispelling magic is devastating to the DPR.
Also currently playing an ek, and while Im not at level 7, Ive taken cantrips that arent fully for damage, but have more utility. Like fireball for distance, or thorn whip to pull someone closer so I (in the future) could make a follow up attack
When doing Eldritch knight numbers, I hope you'll include booming blade in your builds because the EK main class feature seems to be screaming for it. Intelligence focused Shillelagh EK with booming blade (or true strike) and strength based EK with booming blade both seem interesting. Push mastery and polearm master seem like they'd pair real nicely with booming blade, highly increasing the chance of the extra damage.
I don't know why more people aren't talking about the incredible strategy of taking a three-level multi-class, then after getting the 16th level epic Boone because you qualify due to being 19th level, and taking a real capstone, a second epic boone, allowing for not only increase your main ability score or Constitution to 22, but it also gives map to epic Boone effects. This strategy in my opinion is best accomplished with sorcerer warlocks, and paladin bards.
23:30 Why are you doing Shillelagh and True Strike? why not one or the other and just use a rapier for the 1d8? Why would you warlock dip at level 9 to "use charisma for attacks?" don't true strike and shillelagh do that already? what am I missing about true strike and shillelagh?
With Battle Magic, Valor Bard can make bonus action attack every round because they are casting a cantrip with a casting time of one action. I don't see it included into calculations.
Conjure Minor Elementals is an obvious anomaly with the level scaling, but also what surprises me is that it also doesn't follow the 2024 design philosophy of "once per turn" damage boosts. That would've made a huge difference.
I have not done the math but I think a charisma based fighter with a warlock dip to pick up pact of the blade would work. You just need to be a high elf or pick up the Magic Initiate (wizard) feat to get cha-based, wizard cantrip true strike.
You're right that martial characters should do the most single target damage. While 5.24 seems to be closer to this ideal, the difference in damage should favor martial classes by a much bigger margin to make up for the vast powers of the caster classes in other aspects of the game.
Would love to see fighter sword and board with a rapier. At a certain point they have Advantage on all but the first attack which is pretty neat, and I feel would help sword and board a lot
I like that an optimized Barbarian (or even a base Fighter) is going to do more damage than a gish Bard early on. As a Bard, you're still a caster. Oh wow, you're literally making this point as I type it (33:00). Nice.
What about Colby's dual wielding Valor Bard with a fighter dip and Magic initiate Wizard for booming blade and green flame blade? Did you not consider it because those cantrips are not in the PHB?
I mean valor bards need 3 things to be competitive (if not the best) single damage dealers - spirit shroud / CME, Booming blade / EB and depending on the weapon - mastery and/ or fighting style. I can't be bothered checking TMs damage for dualwielder and why he considers it inferior. For my builds dual wielding consistently outdamages other builds if you have extra attack, mastery(nick) and a spell that boosts damage per attack (spirit shoud, df, hm, holy weapon, cme etc.).
Love these videos! I wonder though why you never include spirit shroud in your calculations? Being a bonus action you can get much more damage out of it than hex without giving up your attacks and it upcasts nicely without getting ridiculous like CME.
Based off your charts & numbers, CME might be okay as a spell for straight classes Druids & wizards (ignoring scorching Ray) basically only able to proc it once or twice. But I think 1d8 per level up cast is a solid fix.
Hey Chris, still love your content. I will mention again I think you should look at the celestial warlock with a 1 level dip in paladin. The Radiant Soul feature can be double dipped so easily.
@@logancuster8035 Yeah, I like using Divine Favor scrolls from the dip being paladin instead of fighter, then stuff like Radiant storm of Jallarzi and Pike mastery become nice. I use Pact of the blade and Pact of the chain master. It's LudicSavant's build on GITP.
It is really interesting how third edition and 3.5 seems to skew your perception on things. To be clear, I’m not sure this is a bad thing. It is just interesting how hard the “don’t sacrifice more than one caster level” rule from 3E is to break. Given the various presumptions, it very much feels like fighter is worth dipping to level two for action surge. Rarely if ever requiring a set up round for damage buffs seems pretty good. What would dual Shillelagh builds look like if that is even a thing? Is it worthwhile to take warlock to level two for agonizing blast? I would find it additionally helpful for you to explain in the videos any reasoning you have for the paths not chosen. For example, you explained why the great sword build would want weapon mastery at level one; but why wait until level 11 for the warlock dip for charisma to attack in damage? Are you trying to stay away from heavy multiclassing? Is heavy multiclassing even the overpowered evil it is made out to be?
Please do a Valor Bard with A Fighter dip to get Mastery, two weapon fighting, duel wield, and True Strike/Font to add to the multiple attacks. Going F2 after getting Magical Secrets opens up Actio Surge for tier 2, and with Haste, that is lots of attacks, even without CME, nice damage. I took Warcaster so no issue casting with two weapons.
I know you only play with 2024 content, but I would really consider taking Custom Lineage and grabbing Pact of the Blade at level 1. Since Eldritch Adept is not reprinted it does not have any level requirements and can be taken at level 1 through CL. That saves the Warlock dip which could then become a MAD Paladin 1/Bard X-build in stead.
What manner of spells could be used to support a greatsword without caring about charisma? I kinda remember booming blade being reprinted in 5.24, so wouldnt a str based valorbard be possible with it? Start with a fighter dip, MI for booming blade, use those spells to bump up dmg? Or are those that few and far between?
Hey, any reason not to dip into both paladin and warlock? It sounds like having that bonus action since you can nick with a scimitar means that you can squeeze out a little more burst damage
With updating all the "Cantrip in Attack" mechanics, but not including Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade.... I feel bad for everyone not allowed to use old material 😝
Please please please do a Sorcerer breakdown. I know the math will get complicated, but I'm dying to see the numbers for Wild Magic sorcerer with the new surge table factored in.
I really don't understand why there was any waiting to get Warlock after hitting the second attack on the greatsword build. Or heck, right before. That'd up DPR very meaningfully at levels 6-8. Not much change otherwise of course. Another option you should definitely check is just using a Strength based Bard. Like...why not go Str 17, Cha 16 or even 14, Great Weapon Mastery at 4th, and using, like, Booming Blade or even no cantrip at all, just buff spells? That's a very solid way to up damage...you don't have to aim to attack with Charisma as a Bard, after all. You want decent Charisma, sure, but it's not an absolute requirement by any means that it be your highest score.
Can you use Booming Blade instead of True Strike though? Also, could we use shillelagh AND true strike as an eldritch knight at the same time? I think we could cook something there
Hi! How does the change to assumptions on pre-casting combat spells alter the Shadow Monk? My recollection is that it was assumed Darkness was pre-cast before every combat. If that's the case, how much would the Shadow Monk's DPR decrease?
I wonder if the problem isn't with the spell CME and its upscaling but rather that classes that it isn't intended for can access it. If the spell is restricted to Wizards and Druids alone then is it still OP? I suspect the Bards new Magical Secrets ability at level 10 is the real problem. Why should they get access to almost every spell all of a sudden? What are your thoughts?
For the Eldrich Blast build I want everyone to remember that Conjure Minor Elementals applies the extra damage only to creatures that are within the 15 foot Emanation so being a Ranged Bard with it won't really work that well. Also the damage types it deals are very commonly resisted, so the DPR numbers could be misleading on the table, so keep that in mind as well
@@surrent that's true, but I meant that he can't use EB on target father than 15 feet away from him which is honestly a big weakness to CME. It's powerful in close range, and the Bard has a d8 hit die, plus it's concentration. It's not very hard to work around
You choose the damage type each time. Given Vulnerabilities are supposed to play a bigger role, the new MM might mean that CME can often deal double damage
really not sure why people think true strike is the way to go for optimized damage. it feels pretty obvious that its place in the game is for primary spellcasters, not spell swords or martials
I know it's greedy, but I would love to see "Greatsword and Summoning" but with Shillelagh instead (but may as well use Greatsword until 6). Losing GWM is sad, but I have to think being able to dip Paladin or Sorcerer instead of Warlock has got to be worth it. I know you wanted an apples to apples Greatsword build, but for the math
Colby just did a build with this idea for Max EB damage. It's interesting but not if you have more than one combat per day and turn all your slots into sorcery points
Maybe I missed it, and it isn't that much, but why wouldn't you assume maybe half of your Bardic Inspiration as a damage boost? (might even double for crits depending on your table) (( also really looking forward to the fighter vid ))
I think you have an error at level 17 because you've included both 4 Eldritch Blasts and Foresight. However, due to the Warlock dip, you should be 1 level behind on Foresight. So I think there should be a smaller step at 17 and then you catch up to your plateau at 18.
Chris, you once again mention the issue with casting and a "free" hand. Take another look at the description. They removed the word "free", so the issue should be solved.
Eldritch fighter not doing more DPR than the other fighters? Have you considered a great axe Cleave build? You can an extra attack every turn, and I don't mean on anither target you can hit your primary target with an additional attack. Cleave says "as part of the attack action" which makes eligible for being exchanged for a cantrip. Once replaced in this way you no longer have to target the second creature with the attack as it is no longer the cleave attack, and you can always trigger it using yourself as the second target. RAI probably not, RAW 100%. If the retargeting part doesn't float your boat you could also choose an AOE cantrip like thunder clap instead so you don't hit yourself, or green flame blade to hit yourself and the main target for more damage too which you can also use absorb elements on to add even more damage next round like a pseudo smite Edit, you could do it with a glave I think to get a PAM bonus action attack too but I feel like with how little you can add to that attack now the axe might be better regardless
“We’re not looking at AC, we’re looking at damage” That’s not the attitude you had for the Warlock builds. You purposely sacrificed damage for defense.
With CME there is no incoming damage - the target is already dead. Plus, you do have low level spell slots for Shield, unlike Warlock, and Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency (the latter can still be used with Dual Wielding by the rules due to weapon juggling, although good luck not getting the DM to houserule it).
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I love this series. With each class having its own strengths and weaknesses, it's hard to make a direct comparison, but you're doing a great job getting as close as you can. If nothing else, your graphs show (at least so far) that if inflicting damage directly is your goal, stick to the martials. If you want to buff, debuff, or control the battlefield, focus on magic. I've seen players get frustrated because their magic-using characters can't compete on single-target damage. Your videos show, at least for me, why magic-using characters should largely stick with what they're best at and help the martials do what they do best.
@@rontrobertson funny you mention that. For me, the fact that a fighter, who cannot do anything else besides damage, is so closely matched against a moon druid, is a huge red flag.
Imagine characters are rated 1-10 in few categories: non combat utility, combat control, damage, survivability, social.
Fighters would rate, say, 10 in damage, 7 in survivability, 3 in the rest.
Now, comes the land druid, with a 7 in damage, and also 7 on all others aspects. Would you choose to sacrifice all others aspects of a character to get a bit of an edge in one aspect (damage)? To me, the gap should be so ridiculous to the point of making casters and martials not even comparable in single target damage. Instead, what I see here is martials sacrificing everything else to be slightly better at damage, which is unfortunate and a losing tradeoff imo
@@limaTheNoob I'd argue that with the weapon masteries, of which the fighter gets the most, provides a lot of the control that most casters would have without sacrificing a lick of damage. Combine that with the new rules on weapon switching and you can push, topple, slow, and sap 4 different enemies on a turn, with *zero* resource cost.
Does that fully close the gap to the utility that spells provide? No.
Does it leave a fighter as only damage? Most certainly not.
@jasonklatt481 I think weapon masteries are severely overrated. I really don't think the control they do is all that relevant. Sap simply doesn't scale. Topple triggers on a CON save, which is horrible to target and very unreliable. Push is good, but nothing crazy. Slow is... Sure, it's there.
Worse, to use all those maneuvers, fighter often need to forgo the benefits of their primary magical weapon to access alternative masteries, since the level 9 feature is limited for whatever reason.
I don't think anyone considers agonizing blast + repelling blast enough to consider warlocks even a decent controller. That's just not enough. So, I don't know, I think people overestimate masteries white a bit..
@@limaTheNoob That's a fair criticism. Time will tell.
@@jas0616 Indeed. I hope to be proven wrong.
It just annoys me because martials are not expected to have control equivalent to wall of force, but casters are expected to be able to deal comparable damage as long as it expends resources, and that seems so very unfair to me. That on top of the fact that casters are just as survivable annoys the hell out of me lol
Another great video, Chris.
A few notes:
At level 9 you seem to have reduced the damage of the shillelaghs by a little too much. At level 8 you calculated the total shillelagh damage as 15.3 (I have 15.4 but that's rounding) but then in order to account for Animate Objects you reduced 14.1 (the level 7 value) by 15/16 instead of 15.3, which brings the damage up a little bit at that level, though it's only a point or so.
However, at level 14 and 17 you gave bard features a level early, probably because of the Warlock dip. You wouldn't actually get to apply Battle Magic until level 15 or Foresight until level 18.
And then for foresight, I may be missing something but you failed to give yourself advantage on any eldritch blast checks for the whole rest of the build. The spell allows advantage on all D20 tests, so this should also apply to the eldritch blasts. This cranks the damage up a whole ton from what you presented. I have 161.7 at level 18/19 and 188.8 at level 20, which is just absolutely ridiculous.
In the end that shouldn't matter because I don't think anyone should ever actually bring this to a table though.
One of my long-running AL characters is a Valor Bard 14/Warlock 2. I'm voluntarily foregoing CME, and generally suggesting that everyone at the table do so, in order to avoid trivializing the combats. The build is more than adequate without it.
The problem lies with upcasting it, avoid that and it's fine.
@@znail4675 if you're really worried about up casting, you could also just take Spirit Shroud, which is from TCoE and hence perfectly AL-legal. If you fix the scaling of CME, it's basically the same, albeit CME is 5 ft larger but Spirit Shroud has some better damage types. So instead of wasting a prepared spell on something that won't scale (because you won't scale it), you can just take something that scales reasonably.
With the monsters from the current Monster Manual I agree with you. I suspect that this issue may prove to be diminished with the 5.24 Monster Manual.
@@jasonreiyn9311 Yeah, that's a big wild card. No telling what the resistance spread will be in the new MM. That said, I do find it difficult to believe that elemental damage will ever be better than radiant (on the whole), but it's entirely possible that the gap narrows significantly.
Would have loved to see the CME graph with 1d8 per level and 1d8 per 2 level in the mix
agree, this is what we discussed at my table rather than removing it entirely. Haven't had a chance to test it yet.
I think in future build videos, I'll maybe include CME with the house rule
Or just NOT upcasting it. That’s still great damage.
1d8 per level is pretty much the same as 2d8 every other level (only a smoother graph)
1d8 every other level is likely so weak there is no point housenerfing it that hard ( at this point perhaps simply choose whether to ban it entirely or simply remove upcasting?)
Just a heads up as to give a likely reason should he choose to just graph his houserule (and not your two suggested variants)
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g Spirit Shroud is literally 1d8 for every two levels upcast, and still one of the best DPR increasers in the game on anyone with multiple attacks.
1d8 per level is probably still fine, but 1d8 per two levels is not a small amount or not worth taking. That one is only a Bonus Action to cast, so I do think that 1d8 per level is about right.
To my understanding, for the EB CME build you will get the 9th level spell slot at 18.
Yay! Love from Brazil, close to 100K
I've always wondered what you would think of the precast rule I use.
"Yes you can walk around casting the cantrip all the time. If we roll initiative and nothing has happened to complicate that, you roll a d10 and that's how many turns into the current castings minute you are. There's a chance it's falling g off on your first turn or you only get a turn or two anyway.
Further, if you start casting other spells or engaging in activities like investigation or another skill check you'll have to stop or risk the interruption causing disadvantage on those checks or something else that feels appropriate to the situation.
...
Actually writing it out it seems longer then I thought at first. I'll try and find a more concise wording.
That's a great solution.
Also, Shillelagh having Verbal components would mean sneaking around, or just trying to stay hidden, or stay friendly while talking to any guardlike person would be difficult.
If your going to go back to a class, please consider ranger revist. TWF on beastmaster looks like it works numbers wise. Fey wander kind of a weird subclass to choose since it focuses on spellcasting and control, not damage.
I've done some numbers and a TWF Beast Master defo has the best damage if you use scimitar and shortsword and sub the nick attack for the beast attack till level 5, then you can swap your second attack and benefit from Nick and Vex, all while still casting HM. And that was before you assume anything like the extra d6 from the Land beast's charge or adv from it knocking enemies prone.
There are probably other fighting styles to more effective that what qa presented. Longbows are a cc weapon also not damage
@@mattwithoutfear Idk, i ran numbers with beast master ranger using the same assumptions as Chris and it's fine prior to level 11 but still fails to scale 11-20.
Between levels 4-10 your beast's attack is a damage loss without the charge, about the same with charge every round, and slightly higher with the prone effect potentially giving you advantage; this largely comes from the fact that your pet scales off your wisdom and your attacks have a higher hit chance/damage. With that in mind, it's about the same as other ranger subclasses in tiers 1-2. Either way, it's pretty close to fighter and potb warlock prior to 11, and then falls super far behind in tiers 3-4 because it barely scales after that point. Maybe summoning helps, i didn't run the numbers for that, and if you could summon before a fight and use your bonus action to do your beast attacks it's definitely better damage-wise, you just have a vulnerable beast and summon you're relying on for damage at that point.
@casualPandy interesting, even with the two attacks it makes and benefitting from HM?
@@mattwithoutfear Yeah, the ranger kinda keeps up prior to 11 to fighter and potb warlock. So in the most common levels of play it's fine.
I think that the main issue is that hm takes up the ranger's bonus action every round and twf doesn't scale as well as a 2-handed weapon with gwm. Maybe using something like conjure animals if you can get it off before combat is the play since it'll allow you to get 3 attacks, weaponize your bonus action with your pet, and then get the damage from the conjuration spell.
With hunter's mark though at level 11+, Beast Master Ranger's attack action with the beast's attacks does about the same as a base fighter's attack action while using gwm, but the fighter gets to weaponize their bonus action for potential gwm attacks, plus action surge every other combat, and then you add in the bonus damage from the subclasses.
At lvl 14 when you get Battle Magic, I think you need to factor in whether you can precast Shillelagh or not. Prior to this point I believe you had a bonus action available on the first round of combat to cast Shillelagh, with Battle Magic, you're now "double booking" that same bonus action to factor in the damage from an attack on the round you're casting CME, when most of the time you'll actually need that bonus action to cast Shillelagh.
Good morning Chris! Excited to see this Subclass, i love anything that gives me the gish play style! I've loved Bladesinger ever since buying my AD&D Complete Book of Elves long long ago in high school!
Hope you have a wonderful week! Thank you for the awesome videos! Love listening at work and then fully watching when i get home and can pay attention to the screen! Much love 💜 until the next vid!
My way to build a Eldtrich Knight with a Greatsword is to go with High Elf or Human (MI:W) for a way to cast True Strike with Cha and take a warlock dip. At level 12 you can do 2x(3d6 + 9) + (5d6 + 9)
I’ve done a few builds with the EK fighter, and it appears to have taken a step up in the gish ranks.
A twf version is a nice dmg dealer, and is even marginally effective at range with a bow.
Once you can add in spirit shroud in tier 3, the dmg jumps, and you can even add CME in at tier 4 at it’s base casting level.
(Assuming you can use BB & GFB from XGTE, for the cantrip, war magic is great) Action surge, weapon mastery, indomitable 3xday for saves.
It’s a solid all around combatant.
Another self-policing way to fix CME, is to not up-cast it immediately. You don't cast it at 5th level until you have your 6th level slot, you don't cast it at 6th until you have your 8th, and at 20 you can use 7th. This gives you appropriate-ish scaling and you get your higher level slots for other things.
Quarter staff is now a legitimate Druidic Focus in the new Player’s Handbook (Page 225) so if your weapon is a Staff you don’t need a free hand to cast Druidic spells.
You'd need a class feature to be able to use the Druidic Focus. Our bard will not get this, and thus cannot use a Druidic Focus.
Thats true for spells that have both a somatic and material component. If they're somatic-only then you still need a free hand. Its absolutely maddening that they left that rule intact in 2024 and we houserule the hell out of it but there it is.
@@PsyrenXY Players/DMs complain about casters being stronger than Martials, players/DMs choose to actively ignore a rule that hinders casters seemingly intentionally. Surprised Pikachu Face
@@ProjectPTSheep No, the problem has never been Gish builds. This is basically a strawman argument because the numbers on gish builds are almost always comparable or worse to just regular martials. Like a regular Hexblade does much less single target damage than a fighter. The most powerful options for casters are always mass shutdown and control spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Sleet Storm, Wall of Force, Spirit Guardians etc..
@@floofzykitty5072 A fighter should have more damage than a Gish, else why should the fighter even exist if the Gish is better in every way? And of course the most powerful options are shutdown, taking an enemy out of a fight is functionally killing them in terms of action economy. Gishes are stronger, and you want to buff them, because they aren't stronger in every way
On CME builds you can get a lot of mileage out of a 2 level sorcerer dip after warlock to get quicken. Especially since you can spend lower level slots to get sorcery points once you run out. Keeps your caster progression, so you are still scaling CME, and you can still get an epic boon bc the 16th bard level happens at 19. You do lose an ASI, but I think it could do a lot for your numbers, not having to take a turn off.
And if you were not playing the early levels you could start sorcerer and avoid resilient con
That's true! And a great long term play, but is a build really 'busted' if it only comes online fully in tier 4? xD
Nick and DW (if not ruling that Battle Magic Eldritch Blast allows for the BA every round) can also add two more attacks, which is very significant here. But yeah, Quickened Scorching Ray, even low level ones, can add a lot more attacks too. The CME build Chris was presenting, at least past 11, was quite unoptimised (not that it matters much).
I also do think Chris was underselling the 10min duration a little - in a dungeon (hint, D&D) there are likely to be combats less than 10 minutes apart easily. If not in a dungeon, actually getting four combat encounters a day can be quite a challenge (it also makes it more likely you'll have a Short Rest between each encounter, which changes some builds strengths by a lot). So, the point is that you probably have more of the encounters with the higher level CME than is being considered here.
Of course, the major downfall to CME is being tier 3+ when many parties quit about that point.
19:43 for allowing pre casting of cantrips I take an in-between stance. I allow it, cuz nothing to say you can’t spam cantrips, but it isn’t free. Since most cantrips have a verbal component, like shillelagh, it will reduce your ability to stealth. You can’t be chanting words every 6 seconds and be completely stealthy. It’s assumed you can hear verbal components from 60 ft at least since the range of counterspell is that. And the spell assumes you know they are casting a spell, rather than “just talking” (and some spells are verbal only, so you can’t argue other things tip the counter speller off). Just my two cents.
I have the same approach. Forbidding cantrip spam is just DM playing the players character, but casting a spell every minute has obvious consequences for stealth.
At my table, the agreement is to assume cantrip spam every 30 seconds unless actively stealthing or the player explicitly specifies no to, e.g. a social setting where it might be too inappropriate
@@SortKaffe that’s a good approach. And that reminds me, when I wrote spam every six seconds I was thinking spamming rituals since you have to continue casting every round till the ritual is done. 30 sec is more realistic for something like shillelagh.:)
I would think if I had the 13 Str, I'd go Paladin for Weapon Mastery and Armor, just to keep up with Spell Slots....
Grear work as always Chis! Kee4em coming!
This is my favorite videos of the week. Give me more, more!! :)
Question, how are you casting Foresight at level 17 with a 1 level dip into warlock, when it would take 17 levels of Bard to get Foresight?
Although at level 17, you could have cast a 9th level CME.
@@simonburling3762
I groan when I see that one suggested. xD A 9th level slot can be Wish, or True Polymorph. I don't think even the crazy scaling of CME comes close to those beasts.
I was a touch frustrated to not see any build without a multiclass dip. These videos are a great tool for me to compare the effectiveness of each class, but i feel that the comparisons aren't fair when the builds don't do what a casual player would do to try. (I.e. no multiclassing or using MI feat to pick up shillelagh or true strike). I know i felt the same way when the rogue build included using true strike, because none of my players would do that if they were building a "classic" rogue.
Maybe this is just a difference in the kind of table we play on, but it would be very helpful to see how a "vanilla" valor bard would stack up.
Thanks for these videos, Chris! You do amazing work!
really would’ve loved to see you graph the TWF Valor bard. I really think that’s the optimal method for DPR with this character
Very interesting video, I learned a lot. As for CME, my group do not play a lot so I would warn them it is problematical and rule that it can only be used once per cantrip and then discuss after playing with it for a while. They are forgoing the use of some juicy spell there for that damage.
Though I would have more issues if more than one player wanted to build around it but I do not think I have those kind of players.
Is your interpretation that Battle Magic and the Valor Bard’s Extra Attack don’t work together? It seems to provide a bonus action attack every turn, since you’re casting a cantrip that has a casting time of an action.
My reading is it wouldn't apply because you aren't using your action to cast a spell, you are taking the attack action, and the cantrip is definitely not using up that whole action.
@@TreantmonksTemple I would also point out Battle Magic doesn't say you need to take the Magic Action. Since the new PHB has defined the Magic Action and used it to clarify other rules, it would suggest that using the Attack Action to cast a spell should qualify
@@TreantmonksTemple that used to be a point of contention in 2014 rules as well regarding Eldritch Knight 7 / Bladesinger 6 builds. Crawford has explained in one of those sage advice videos that such an interaction is valid. So, taking the attack action and casting a cantrip as part of it should, indeed, qualify as "use your action to cast a cantrip".
@@limaTheNoob natural language, wooooo
@@texteel don't we all love it
With Eldritch Knight what is your opinion on two weapon fighting builds vs the great sword route?
AAAAAAHHHHHH 99k!!!!! Why can't I see the other digits to track how close Chris is to 100k subs?
You use summoning spells so inconsistently. You use them for valor greatsword, but not for warlock greatsword or base bard. Summons are the best tool for spellcasters to deal consistent damage (better than CME, because you don't have to engage in melee).
I get that this is how the numbers work out but it's so funny to me that the blade pact warlock doesn't use the blade pact's signature feature (attacking with charisma), but the valor bard does
at 12:50 you give the Bard their 14th level feature, but they wont get that until 15 since they dipped Warlock right?
Also, Foresight should come at 18.
It largely doesn't matter - Nick and DW aren't being considered, and those add two more attacks to the strength of CME. At level 11, put those in and take out the much weaker Shillelagh (use Pact of the Blade), fix the Battle Magic and Foresight use, and that curve will rise considerably more. Even better, add in two Sorc levels for Quickened Scorching Rays.
@@theresnoracelikegnome Foresight would also affect the hit and crit chance on Eldritch Blast as well. 0.65 to 0.94 in the multiplier is a noticeable contribution. It looks like the last few levels are out by 40 or so DPR.
I really hope the fix for Conjure Minor Elementals is either add in "once per turn" or "once on your turn" and the scaling is left alone. We don't need another spell scaling up multi-attack builds. It is in the Druid and Wizard spell lists by default, and I believe that besides the Moon Druid and the Bladesinger, all of the subclasses for those classes have 1 attack per turn, so giving them a way to boost their Shillelah and True Strike attacks in a way that can sort of keep up with the multi-attack builds makes the spell useful and flavorful for the classes that are supposed to have it. And the Moon Druid already has two bonus damage effects it gets that are already "once per turn", so this would even match the current design of the only multi-attack Druid subclass. I would personally love to have a spell that gives you an incentive to build around one attack per turn.
Eldritch knight is really affected by whether the table uses booming blade or not.
Shouldn’t Battle Magic come at 15, since we dipped Warlock?
Yes, and Foresight at 18, not 17
Grabbing Eldritch Adept to get Pact of the Blade can be nice for gishes, it'll let you use your charisma for the weapon modifiers and lets you use it as a spellcasting focus while specifically not mentioning a class spell list restriction like most spellcasting focus features.
"...Until the bond ends, you have proficiency with the weapon, and you can use it as a Spellcasting Focus."
I'm looking forward to the Eldricht Knight video.
I've played around with an Int-based EK shillelagh 'n board build and I think it looks fun. The damage would be respectable, a very good AC with plate and the shield spell, with a maxed Int for a good spell DC, and lots of utility with its spells.
Concentration spells could partly be used as a way to encourage mobs to focus fire on the tank. Besides, an opening control spell (even if using low level slots) is often more important than early damage.
I'll be interested to see how your choices compare with mine.
I think this is a non-issue, honestly. It doesn't work until very high levels, it eats your high level spell slots, and it's replacing a dramatically stronger type of spell (the old "Conjure X" line of spells is just better).
I also think the opportunity cost of 'do nothing but buff yourself' on your first turn is enormous and annoying enough that when you do that, the subsequent impact should be worth it.
I'd agree if it didn't make a caster with basically no martial investment better than a martial with a full build. But it does and that's an issue. The conjure spells were reworked for a reason!
If they put the blade cantrips in the new phb eldritch knight would do good with the 7th level feature
Using Font of Moonlight, maximizing the number of attacks by using polearm mastery (3 attacks with the feat) or dual-wielding (4 attacks with the feat) makes sense.
I don't know a single DM in the world that wouldn't let you cast Shillelagh with a shield on. If they don't allow that, then run- they are going to be a nightmare to play with.
Actually you don't need a free hand for M components at all, because Quarterstaff is a Druidic Focus now and Valor Bard can use a weapon as their spellcasting focus. So it works for both spell types
This would be true if Shillelagh was a bard spell, but you need to get it through MI: Druid (at least until level 10).
You would need to take a level of Druid to do this. Spell focus is specific each class. Bard does not have druid spell focus.
@@PartNinja and if you do that, it keys shilelele to wisdom instead of cha
One build im playing with is valor bard with a 3 level rogue (thief) dip using ranged attacks. Scaling off off dex is just better for a bard than scaling off str for your 1st attack and with thief's subclass feature and arcana proficiency you can craft true strike scrolls and get 3 attacks per turn, with a small sneak attack, 2 of which being true strikes.
I'm looking forward to doing Valor bard with a warlock dip, so you can cast haste and double eldritch blast plus an additional attack. Bard is going to be insane in tier 3 and 4
i like the calculation a lot, valor bard sure packs a punch even without abusing cme:)
I don't really understand the need to take polearm master for the bonus action attack.
The 14 feature tells us that when we cast a spell with a casting time of an action, you can do the BA attack
The extra attack feature tells us, that we can substitute one of our attacks with a cantrip with a casting time of an action.
So, wouldn't casting a cantrip like eldritch blast which has a casting time of an action already qualify us for the lvl 14 BA attack? or am i missing sth?
The level 6 feature states that you can change one of the attacks within the extra attack, and u can only use extra attack when you take the attack action, taking the attack action is different than making one attack as a bonus action
@@Leydus thanks for the reply, but im not sure i understand you completely.
The lvl 14 feature allows me to make a bonus action attack when i cast a spell with a casting time of an action.
When i use the valor bards extra attack to cast eldritch blast, then i should be able to
EB-->extra attack-->lvl 14 BA attack since i cast EB which is a cantrip fitting the criteria.
The lvl 14 feature does not require me to take the attack action
NOR does it require me to take the magic action, only that i cast a spell with the casting time of an action.
Therefore casting EB with the extra attack feature it should qualify to take use of the lvl 14 feature. Which would be better than using polearm master🤔
@@integrity9186 you are correct. Cast a cantrip with the extra Attack feature of Valor Bard enables the BA Attack granted at the 14h level
@@kendernavarro Thanks for answering:)
Oooch! So close to 100K subscribers! Amazing!!
Would love to see EB+spirit shroud since that spell isn't broken. But beggars can't be choosers and you do good work ❤
So I thought the message is, if someone wants to play this in a level 1-20 campaign, let them. If they struggle bus through the early levels and survive until level 15 where it actually gets online, they earned it. Especially since interrupting concentration or dispelling magic is devastating to the DPR.
Also currently playing an ek, and while Im not at level 7, Ive taken cantrips that arent fully for damage, but have more utility. Like fireball for distance, or thorn whip to pull someone closer so I (in the future) could make a follow up attack
When doing Eldritch knight numbers, I hope you'll include booming blade in your builds because the EK main class feature seems to be screaming for it. Intelligence focused Shillelagh EK with booming blade (or true strike) and strength based EK with booming blade both seem interesting. Push mastery and polearm master seem like they'd pair real nicely with booming blade, highly increasing the chance of the extra damage.
I don't know why more people aren't talking about the incredible strategy of taking a three-level multi-class, then after getting the 16th level epic Boone because you qualify due to being 19th level, and taking a real capstone, a second epic boone, allowing for not only increase your main ability score or Constitution to 22, but it also gives map to epic Boone effects. This strategy in my opinion is best accomplished with sorcerer warlocks, and paladin bards.
23:30 Why are you doing Shillelagh and True Strike? why not one or the other and just use a rapier for the 1d8? Why would you warlock dip at level 9 to "use charisma for attacks?" don't true strike and shillelagh do that already? what am I missing about true strike and shillelagh?
With Battle Magic, Valor Bard can make bonus action attack every round because they are casting a cantrip with a casting time of one action. I don't see it included into calculations.
In many ways, my life has been a series of events leading up to playing a campaign as a 2024 Valor Bard.
Conjure Minor Elementals is an obvious anomaly with the level scaling, but also what surprises me is that it also doesn't follow the 2024 design philosophy of "once per turn" damage boosts.
That would've made a huge difference.
I have not done the math but I think a charisma based fighter with a warlock dip to pick up pact of the blade would work. You just need to be a high elf or pick up the Magic Initiate (wizard) feat to get cha-based, wizard cantrip true strike.
Let's go 100k!
You're right that martial characters should do the most single target damage. While 5.24 seems to be closer to this ideal, the difference in damage should favor martial classes by a much bigger margin to make up for the vast powers of the caster classes in other aspects of the game.
Would love to see fighter sword and board with a rapier. At a certain point they have Advantage on all but the first attack which is pretty neat, and I feel would help sword and board a lot
I like that an optimized Barbarian (or even a base Fighter) is going to do more damage than a gish Bard early on. As a Bard, you're still a caster. Oh wow, you're literally making this point as I type it (33:00). Nice.
Looks like you never tried a combo of CME with Scorching Ray. I wonder how that would look like.
He also hasn't done wizard yet. That's where I would expect to see both spell appear
What about Colby's dual wielding Valor Bard with a fighter dip and Magic initiate Wizard for booming blade and green flame blade? Did you not consider it because those cantrips are not in the PHB?
yeah he is only doing new phb stuff
I mean valor bards need 3 things to be competitive (if not the best) single damage dealers - spirit shroud / CME, Booming blade / EB and depending on the weapon - mastery and/ or fighting style.
I can't be bothered checking TMs damage for dualwielder and why he considers it inferior. For my builds dual wielding consistently outdamages other builds if you have extra attack, mastery(nick) and a spell that boosts damage per attack (spirit shoud, df, hm, holy weapon, cme etc.).
Love these videos! I wonder though why you never include spirit shroud in your calculations? Being a bonus action you can get much more damage out of it than hex without giving up your attacks and it upcasts nicely without getting ridiculous like CME.
I designed a value bar with a 3 lvl sorcerer dip. Quickened spell and crossbow expert.
1 shot, true strike, 1 shot dex, 1 shot quickened true strike.
Also you can get charisma added to armor by picking draconic at level 3
Based off your charts & numbers, CME might be okay as a spell for straight classes Druids & wizards (ignoring scorching Ray) basically only able to proc it once or twice.
But I think 1d8 per level up cast is a solid fix.
The problem is _not_ EB, it is CME scaling with number of successful attacks. It really should be limited to once per round per target
Hey Chris, still love your content. I will mention again I think you should look at the celestial warlock with a 1 level dip in paladin. The Radiant Soul feature can be double dipped so easily.
I did that build in my first warlock video - honest! It triple dips Cha actually.
@TreantmonksTemple huh, I must have missed it some how.
@@jonathanhaynes9914it’s a fun build. Not crazy damage, but solid
@@logancuster8035 Yeah, I like using Divine Favor scrolls from the dip being paladin instead of fighter, then stuff like Radiant storm of Jallarzi and Pike mastery become nice. I use Pact of the blade and Pact of the chain master. It's LudicSavant's build on GITP.
I would like to see a Shillelagh, true strike druid or cleric build.
Me too. They have very similar abilities so it could almost be the same video.
Would love to see the graph with all your 2024 builds stacked up.
It is really interesting how third edition and 3.5 seems to skew your perception on things. To be clear, I’m not sure this is a bad thing. It is just interesting how hard the “don’t sacrifice more than one caster level” rule from 3E is to break. Given the various presumptions, it very much feels like fighter is worth dipping to level two for action surge. Rarely if ever requiring a set up round for damage buffs seems pretty good. What would dual Shillelagh builds look like if that is even a thing? Is it worthwhile to take warlock to level two for agonizing blast? I would find it additionally helpful for you to explain in the videos any reasoning you have for the paths not chosen. For example, you explained why the great sword build would want weapon mastery at level one; but why wait until level 11 for the warlock dip for charisma to attack in damage? Are you trying to stay away from heavy multiclassing? Is heavy multiclassing even the overpowered evil it is made out to be?
Please do a Valor Bard with A Fighter dip to get Mastery, two weapon fighting, duel wield, and True Strike/Font to add to the multiple attacks. Going F2 after getting Magical Secrets opens up Actio Surge for tier 2, and with Haste, that is lots of attacks, even without CME, nice damage. I took Warcaster so no issue casting with two weapons.
I think the Foresight boost to damage on the CME+EB build should be delayed until level 18 due to the Warlock dip, but it's still pretty bonkers.
I know you only play with 2024 content, but I would really consider taking Custom Lineage and grabbing Pact of the Blade at level 1. Since Eldritch Adept is not reprinted it does not have any level requirements and can be taken at level 1 through CL. That saves the Warlock dip which could then become a MAD Paladin 1/Bard X-build in stead.
What manner of spells could be used to support a greatsword without caring about charisma?
I kinda remember booming blade being reprinted in 5.24, so wouldnt a str based valorbard be possible with it? Start with a fighter dip, MI for booming blade, use those spells to bump up dmg? Or are those that few and far between?
Hey, any reason not to dip into both paladin and warlock? It sounds like having that bonus action since you can nick with a scimitar means that you can squeeze out a little more burst damage
Here’s what I want to know for comparison purposes: what’s the highest damage you can do with CME as a single class Wizard?
With updating all the "Cantrip in Attack" mechanics, but not including Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade....
I feel bad for everyone not allowed to use old material 😝
Please please please do a Sorcerer breakdown. I know the math will get complicated, but I'm dying to see the numbers for Wild Magic sorcerer with the new surge table factored in.
Lol. You just want to torture poor TM. Doing maths for wildmagic table as single target damage😮
Adding levels of Paladin to any melee build then you should consider Divine Strike (I think it's called) the minute long +1D4 DMG per melee hit.
The meta homebrew seems to be converging on upscale at 1d8 instead of 2d8 for CME. What do you think the homebrew fix should be?
He mentioned 1d8/2 level in another Video. I feel like 1d8 would be a sweet spot.
1d8/2 levels is plenty.
1d8/2 makes the spell a worse version of spirit shroud, tho, right? the full action cost is waaaay too high imo
I'm curious to see if you use one of your builds for a new damage baseline or an aggregate of builds.
I really don't understand why there was any waiting to get Warlock after hitting the second attack on the greatsword build. Or heck, right before. That'd up DPR very meaningfully at levels 6-8. Not much change otherwise of course.
Another option you should definitely check is just using a Strength based Bard. Like...why not go Str 17, Cha 16 or even 14, Great Weapon Mastery at 4th, and using, like, Booming Blade or even no cantrip at all, just buff spells? That's a very solid way to up damage...you don't have to aim to attack with Charisma as a Bard, after all. You want decent Charisma, sure, but it's not an absolute requirement by any means that it be your highest score.
Can you use Booming Blade instead of True Strike though? Also, could we use shillelagh AND true strike as an eldritch knight at the same time? I think we could cook something there
Hi! How does the change to assumptions on pre-casting combat spells alter the Shadow Monk? My recollection is that it was assumed Darkness was pre-cast before every combat. If that's the case, how much would the Shadow Monk's DPR decrease?
I wonder if the problem isn't with the spell CME and its upscaling but rather that classes that it isn't intended for can access it. If the spell is restricted to Wizards and Druids alone then is it still OP? I suspect the Bards new Magical Secrets ability at level 10 is the real problem. Why should they get access to almost every spell all of a sudden? What are your thoughts?
For the Eldrich Blast build I want everyone to remember that Conjure Minor Elementals applies the extra damage only to creatures that are within the 15 foot Emanation so being a Ranged Bard with it won't really work that well. Also the damage types it deals are very commonly resisted, so the DPR numbers could be misleading on the table, so keep that in mind as well
He takes spellsniper so that he can EB from melee range.
@@surrent that's true, but I meant that he can't use EB on target father than 15 feet away from him which is honestly a big weakness to CME. It's powerful in close range, and the Bard has a d8 hit die, plus it's concentration. It's not very hard to work around
You choose the damage type each time. Given Vulnerabilities are supposed to play a bigger role, the new MM might mean that CME can often deal double damage
@@LoudYapperI agree with you, plus it takes all your resources to make the graph look like that.
really not sure why people think true strike is the way to go for optimized damage. it feels pretty obvious that its place in the game is for primary spellcasters, not spell swords or martials
Do you think that eldrith kinghts would do more damage than other subclasses if green flame blade or booming blade are allowed?
I think eldritch knight works for that build, not for true strike but for doubling down on defense with shield spells, blur etc.
I know it's greedy, but I would love to see "Greatsword and Summoning" but with Shillelagh instead (but may as well use Greatsword until 6). Losing GWM is sad, but I have to think being able to dip Paladin or Sorcerer instead of Warlock has got to be worth it. I know you wanted an apples to apples Greatsword build, but for the math
Would it be worth your time to get quicken spell for more attacks with eldrich blast either through the feat or a few lvls in sorcerer?
Colby just did a build with this idea for Max EB damage. It's interesting but not if you have more than one combat per day and turn all your slots into sorcery points
Maybe I missed it, and it isn't that much, but why wouldn't you assume maybe half of your Bardic Inspiration as a damage boost? (might even double for crits depending on your table) (( also really looking forward to the fighter vid ))
I think you have an error at level 17 because you've included both 4 Eldritch Blasts and Foresight. However, due to the Warlock dip, you should be 1 level behind on Foresight.
So I think there should be a smaller step at 17 and then you catch up to your plateau at 18.
Chris, you once again mention the issue with casting and a "free" hand. Take another look at the description. They removed the word "free", so the issue should be solved.
Eldritch fighter not doing more DPR than the other fighters? Have you considered a great axe Cleave build? You can an extra attack every turn, and I don't mean on anither target you can hit your primary target with an additional attack. Cleave says "as part of the attack action" which makes eligible for being exchanged for a cantrip. Once replaced in this way you no longer have to target the second creature with the attack as it is no longer the cleave attack, and you can always trigger it using yourself as the second target. RAI probably not, RAW 100%. If the retargeting part doesn't float your boat you could also choose an AOE cantrip like thunder clap instead so you don't hit yourself, or green flame blade to hit yourself and the main target for more damage too which you can also use absorb elements on to add even more damage next round like a pseudo smite
Edit, you could do it with a glave I think to get a PAM bonus action attack too but I feel like with how little you can add to that attack now the axe might be better regardless
“We’re not looking at AC, we’re looking at damage”
That’s not the attitude you had for the Warlock builds. You purposely sacrificed damage for defense.
With CME there is no incoming damage - the target is already dead. Plus, you do have low level spell slots for Shield, unlike Warlock, and Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency (the latter can still be used with Dual Wielding by the rules due to weapon juggling, although good luck not getting the DM to houserule it).
I suppose Booming Blade and GFB are not allowed on your Eldritch Knight's extended campaign?
Could you do Spirit shroud instead of CME for reasonable scaling?
Wouldn't the warlock dip stop you getting foresight until 18?
Yo, Chris, how did you get Foresight on level 17 when you have a 1 level dip in Warlock? Shouldn't it come at 18? xD
What about just EB with Agonizing without CME am I missing something?! That seems kinda obvious.
I'd love to know how a 1 fighter dual wielding valor bard does (without CME since thats banned at my table)
Arent Xanathar's blade cantrips better on EK than Truestrike?
The eldritch knight thing should be with booming blade, not true strike, since that’s still allowed from Tasha’s.
Green flame blade would be even better tbh.
He only uses new material in this one